kristin is so cute....

Oh god is it so hard for Hollywood to cast brown actors for brown roles?? WTBF! First "The Party", then "Gandhi", then "The Simpsons", and now this. Kristin looks all cute and all but whens the last time you saw a Pakistani who looks like Bjork? And I hope to god she doesn't bust out in some gora-fied urdu....

Directors have a big fascination with Sikh-Pakistani love these days, even in Veer-Zaara Shah Rukh Khan plays a Sikh character. Khamosh Pani, Gurdas Maan's Shaheed-e-Mohabaat, the list goes on and on.

I am bored. Get a new storyline. Lets look at partition in a different, less chliched way.

Although I contradict myself, because Khamosh Pani is an excellent film, which is not at all cliched, but still, its time to look at partition in different ways from the Romeo & Juliet way.

Neve Campbell (The Company)

What is this blasphemy?
Neve Campbell (Party of Five) is more like it.

Apparently she was on Kids in The Hall once. The things you learn on the internets.

This will not be the first time Jimi Mistry plays a Sardarji. He played a gangster Sikh in a little known British movie called My Kingdom. Click on the link to see him in UK Chic-Sikh bandana.

UK Sikhs are gangsters and rudeboy's generally. Can't wait to see DMX busting some Bhangra~Hip-Hop moves in his next video.

Production on the film will begin next April in South Africa, India and United Kingdom


I'm just trying to work out which scenes from the partition of Punjab they are going to film in South Africa???

UK is no problem, Southall and Birmingham can stand in for Jalandhar etc etc any day.

Oh god is it so hard for Hollywood to cast brown actors for brown roles?? WTBF! First "The Party", then "Gandhi", then "The Simpsons", and now this.

Movie studios are in it primarily for the money, if they can get more money via and indian name they will do it; but since there aren't any BIG ones, they go with a guranatee.

Kristin looks all cute and all but whens the last time you saw a Pakistani who looks like Bjork? And I hope to god she doesn't bust out in some gora-fied urdu....

Pakistani are physicially comparable to Punbaji's correct? Have you seen any really really white Punjabi women that look like they could pass for causcasian? I'm sure you have. One my ex-girlfriends is Punjabi, she could pass for latino, greek, or middle eastern..

If South American actors want to have top billing in these movies, then they will have to grab for it; it's not going to be given to them on a silver platter...

Oh god is it so hard for Hollywood to cast brown actors for brown roles?? WTBF! First "The Party", then "Gandhi"...

Just to clarify, if you are referring to Ben Kingsley (aka Krishna Bhanji), he is half Gujurati. Though your point is well taken.

There are plenty of South Asian actors on the scene. (I think you mean South Asian anyway, not South American). For instance, there are South Asian Americans like Rhona Mitra, the chick from the OC, P. Singh from ER...Not to mention that India has a little bit of a movie industry going too, I'm sure if US movie execs looked really really hard they could find a decent actress somewhere on the subcontinent....

As for placing blame on such actors for not "grabbing for it"....the onus should be placed on the party which picks actors, namely the bigwigs in the US movie industry, not for the struggling actors who are denied such roles. Thats like dissing a minority applicant who was denied a job on the basis of his/her race for not grabbing for the job, and for expecting it on a silver platter.

Re: Pakistanis being physically comparable to Punjabis....Punjabis are an ethnic group, while Pakistanis come from a country. So there are plenty of Punjabi Pakistanis, along with Sindhi Pakistani, etc. Many Pakis do look white, but you will be hard-pressed to find one who looks like Kreuk (white plus asian features). If anything, you may be able to find some Bengalis and people from the eastern appendage of india (Mizoram, Assam, etc.) with such features, but thats on the other side of the subcontinent from Pakistan! And don't give me a strained muhajir rationale....how many muhajirs came from Assam...

You know Hindi films in the 80's and before would depict Americans and Brit in the same way....the part would be played by a light-skinned desi with a horrible adopted accent. The depiction was laughable to anyone who had met or conversed with an actual gora from these places. I mean it just made the film look so stupid to have some guy trying to pass off "Hey baby, vont to dance?".....As embarassing as that was, at least hindi films now actually employ actual Americans/Brits for such roles (see Lagaan, Out of Control, Swades). Its sad that American films haven't progressed likewise, but rather are still stuck in the stereotype-laden and offensive phase of "brown face" portrayals.

"Oh god is it so hard for Hollywood to cast brown actors for brown roles??"

Sure... And, it's also hard to cast Scots for Scottish roles (see Mel Gibson in Braveheart), Latinos for Latino roles (see Cliff Curtis in Training Day), Jews for Jewish roles (see Ben Kingsley in Schindlers List), Thais for Thai roles (see Chow Yun Fat in Anna and the King), Afrikaners in Afrikaner roles (see Marlon Brando in A Dry White Season), Argentinians in Argentinian roles (see me vomit on Madonna in Evita), Moors in Moorish roles (hahahahahahaha see Orson Welles in Othello)...

When it comes to historical epics (I know, Training Day doesn't fit here), Hollywood doesn't care as much about the authenticity of the actor as they do about the authenticity of his/her acting. Sure, it would be nice to have a film by the people, for the people and, misaligning race and ethnicity does take a risk in terms of the audience...

But, well, a half-brown Ben Kingsley in Gandhi is not half as bad as seeing a wholly white Alec Guinness playing Godbole in Passage to India. Why? Because Kingsley fit the role, Guinness did not and according to the buzz, that's why Kristin Kreuk was cast in this film:

Vic Sarin's independently produced "Partition" is semi-autobiographical (parent's story, not his) and the director apparently picked the actor who most resembled the "real" Muslim girl.

So, to answer the question, "Are there any Pakistani women that look like Bjork?" Yes, I guess so.

christ, ben kingsley is half-brown (gujarati-kenyan father) and half-jewish, so he could (with some justification) pull athentic brown and semitic creds.

... ben kingsley is half-brown (gujarati-kenyan father) and half-jewish...

... the director apparently picked the actor who most resembled the "real" Muslim girl.

as for kristin looking brown, she looks like a pale version of my dad's best friend's daughter...but of course, she's bengali. so in general, if phenotype ~ ethnicity matching is what you want, not the hottest move. but like i said, kristin's hot, she's well known, etc. etc. and think of it as a move toward phenotype matching, remember that mowgli was played by a east asian actor in the live action jungle book 10 years back.

also, that picture makes kristin look more asian than typical. look at this, she intersects some paler pakistanis i've met.

...remember that mowgli was played by a east asian actor in the live action jungle book...

Disney producer Gary Gero held auditions for the lead in South Asian population centers all over the world, including London, New York, LA, and SF. In the end we got a Chinese/Filipino actor under brown shoe polish and a mop of false hair. Disney had said in its casting call that no experience was necessary, just a "Mowgli face." Turns out that Gero was watching Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story when he found that "Mowgli face" in Jason Scott Lee. After all, one Asian's as good as another, right?

Well, now, we can we make a broad leap and say that it's possible the girl is a Muslim from, say, Burma? After all, she's not ethnically Pakistani, at least not at the time of this story and given the cross-migration of Muslims, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility..

My quick-change Benji--let us not forget that he is "Sir Ben Kingsley," and that aside from playing a Jew and an Indian, he's also played an American, an Italian and an Iranian. I'm sure he's been much more, but when it comes to being a Hollywood-chameleon, Cliff Curtis has everyone beat.

Ack, no one is what they seem (Razib, I appreciate your addressing me as "Christ," but it's not necessary)...

Well, now, we can we make a broad leap and say that it's possible the girl is a Muslim from, say, Burma?

i have actually met some really upper class ashraf muslims of north indian origin who look somewhat like kruek mix (european + asian), in that they are descended from central asian people who are mixes of caucasians (persians) and mongoloid peoples and haven't intermarried much with converts of "pure" south asian origin. one could even postulate that she is descended from a group of hazara people from the highlands of afghanistan who settled in the lowlands, and as we know, the hazara's are mongoloid looking.

Ahh, I beg to differ because Sarin only indicates patrilineage and not all Burmese are darker, especially the ones that might look like her(Burma in the family, what can I say, my plot thickens). And then, there's this:

"...When he falls in love with a 17-year-old girl (Kristin Kreuk) who has been separated from her family as India is being torn into two countries... "

So, who knows where she's from in the story... I'm trying to defend it, give this little indie-film the benefit of the doubt and you're already sticking a fork in it. Sad.

There are plenty of South Asian actors on the scene. (I think you mean South Asian anyway, not South American).

Doh! Yes, South Asian.

As for placing blame on such actors for not "grabbing for it"....the onus should be placed on the party which picks actors, namely the bigwigs in the US movie industry, not for the struggling actors who are denied such roles. Thats like dissing a minority applicant who was denied a job on the basis of his/her race for not grabbing for the job, and for expecting it on a silver platter.

I think your argument is specious. Your comparing apples and oranges. How do you know that they didn't have South Asians audition for the role but couldn't find someone they felt was suitable. Actors race doesn't negate a story nor a movie. Take for instance the Shawshank Redemption. According to the book Morgan Freeman's character was white. Did casting Morgan Freeman take away from the movie or the story? I don't think so..

But my argument for actors "grabbing for it" isn't putting any particular "onus" that others don't have on them when they interview for a job; or have ambitions to accomplish something. According to what's written it's an Indie film...so the producers are South Asians "grabbin for it" much like Robert Townsend did. According to interviews and such actors like to do roles other than those proscribed by their looks or backgrounds, otherwise how would they become better actors?

Punjabis are an ethnic group, while Pakistanis come from a country.

Yeah, my bad.

Many Pakis do look white, but you will be hard-pressed to find one who looks like Kreuk (white plus asian features)

I tell you what take a gander at the stupid kids on this site and you tell me if a good majority of the girls (especially the North Indian/Punjabi/Paki) couldn't be similar to Kristin Kreuk.

Its sad that American films haven't progressed likewise, but rather are still stuck in the stereotype-laden and offensive phase of "brown face" portrayals.

That's not neccessarily true, and you should know that from the very examples you yourself gave. I'll give one myself, Naveen Andrews on 'Lost'.

Manish,

"Her eyes and nose aren't quite desi"? Er, I know you didn't mean anything by that comment, but do you know how that sounds? Are we really poring over a person's features to determine if they could reliably be ethnically equivalent to our idea of an ethnic? Oh, you know what I mean. This whole line of thinking really creeps me out. It's like when I was a kid and called an auntie who was born and lived in India and had blue eyes my American auntie, cause I just didn't get it.

(And last time I was in Dehra Dun I saw plenty of desi's that looked like her.....)

This whole line of thinking really creeps me out... (And last time I was in Dehra Dun I saw plenty of desi's that looked like her.....)

Its sort of not the point if she phenotypically looks Punjabi Pakistani (which I feel she doesn't). Fine you can find someone who looks like her. But the actress herself is still not desi, which is the problem.

As for the cited cases of Scots, Latinos, Jews, Thais, Afrikaners, maybe such people should have been provided the chance to compete for the role. But more to the point, South Asia has the world's biggest movie industry! Please, get a desi actor for a desi role, especially when its so hard for us to break into "mainstream" cinema...lest we be relegated to forever being either computer nerds or pot smoking junkies.

An integral part of acting is representation and convincing portrayal. I'm sorry, unless Kreuk took about 3-4 years of college level punjabi or whatever the native language of the girl was, her abilities are going to be necessarily limited, a priori, a fortiori.

Its true, I don't know for a fact that desis were not offered the chance to audition for the role. But it is equally specious to just assume that such people were actually offered the opportunity and were denied.

Now I don't know Mr. "Vic" myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were engrained with the post-colonial mindset of servile subservience towards the white acting establishment....selling out to the man, just to make it big. "Hey I know, I'll tell a story of the exotic locus-du-jour, India/Pakistan, throw in some white faces so Americans/Canadians will deign to watch it, and make a killing!"

Sorry if I sound bitter.

Lastly...my friend, how can you cite Training Day in serious conversation? Shame on you...

do you desire a south asian actress or a north indian actress?

But the actress herself is still not desi, which is the problem.

b/c that makes me think you would prefer the former over KK.

this however:

An integral part of acting is representation and convincing portrayal. I'm sorry, unless Kreuk took about 3-4 years of college level punjabi or whatever the native language of the girl was, her abilities are going to be necessarily limited, a priori, a fortiori.

makes me think you prefer the latter, i.e. a north indian and more specifically, a punjabi. if it was just "desi" you wanted, then i could play this character...except like kristin, i didn't take 3-4 years of college level punjabi either. i guess that limits my (and any other non-punjabi-speaking desi's) acting choices. :)

could someone turn this into a detailed front page post/exposition? i think that the topic is interesting, but the opinions are not being fully fleshed out in the comments.

for example, i think it would be kind of bizarre if a blonde swede was picked to play the role of a muslim punjabi girl. so phenotype matters in terms of verisimilitude. that being said, demanding "3-4 years of college level punjabi or whatever the native language of the girl was, her abilities are going to be necessarily limited, a priori, a fortiori" seems to focus to a high level of specificity. what about stipulating that only a muslim should play a muslim?

i will be honest and say that if KK wasn't hot i would probably be more irritated, but i am pro-her-getting-facetime. that being said, demanding that there be a high level of mapping between role:actor in terms of "identity" can cause problems. remember l'affaire kahlo? italian american actress laura san giancomo probably "looked" more like frida kahlo, but there was a demand that a mexican actress play a mexican icon. so salma hayek was chosen. the irony is that neither kahlo (father hungarian jewish) nor salma (father lebanese) are typical latinas in their ethnicities.

haha dont get hung up on the college punjabi people. Point is she should know the language to best play the role.

do you desire a south asian actress or a north indian actress?

I desire south asian actresses from all over. But as for who I'd like to see play the part, prefer someone from the region that the original person was from.

i will be honest and say that if KK wasn't hot i would probably be more irritated

She is hot + exotic looking + quasi famous amongst mainstream audiences.

From an American perspective exotic looks are those that have a high degree of racial amigiosity.

As such a blonde swede would be unacceptable because she is obviously white, but a dutch/chinese hapa
due to her exotic looks can pass for a Punjabi Pakistani.

The movie is designed to appeal to audiences in America, where most people think India is in the Middle East, and nobody believes me when I tell them Ralph Nader is an Arab American.

By the way, if you haven't already, check out this essay by Manish Vij for his very incisive take on similar issues.

There's a lot that needs to be done for media to be fair towards South Asians. In general

Did anybody catch the pbs documentary last night on Kerela.
Its interesting that the natives of Kerela and an average Punjabi looking person look completely different.
I guess we need to stop using the term 'South Asian' especially on this topic because people from a state like Kerela look completely different from lets say a state like Punjab.
So who exactly is South Asian looking?
A typical Keralite or a typical Punjabi ?

A typical Keralite or a typical Punjabi ?

to an average white they don't "look different" operationally. by this, i mean the physical difference is pretty clear to anyone with eyes, but they get cognitively slotted into "turban-head/sand nigger/dot head" category, to be crass about it.

also, since my blog talks about genetics a lot, sepia mutiny readers might find it amusing to know that i get a steady stream of inquiries from punjabis about *differences* between their own ethnic group and other indians. in particular, there seems to be a tendency to want to emphasize the relative similarity of punjabis to western eurasians, in particularly europeans (based on phenotype).

there are two points that i usually respond with

a) the data is still coming in, but there is a substantial number of studies which imply that summed over all ancestrally informative loci, analyzing the phylogenetic tree constructed with a persian speaker from tehran, a punjabi from lahore and someone from kerala as the nodes, the persian would be the "outgroup." in other words, south asians do tend share great genetic and physical commonalities, even more "caucasian" look ones from the northwest of the subcontinent (this does not mean that i am denying substructure, but, i think the preponderance of the evidence tends to lean slightly toward more unity than diversity when compared to non-south asian groups).

b) browns kind of look to the same to non-browns, and someone beating the shit out of you for being a "paki" isn't going to listen when you try to show that Y chromosomal studies suggest that there is a close cladistic relationship between many europeans and north indians via the M17 haplotype, with south indians being the outgroup.

razib

There is nothing more pathetic than a Punjabi trying to prove he is descended from some barbarian horde from the Central Asian steppes, some Scythian nomadic race or pure Iranian or Baghdadi bloodline. Its actually quite hilarious, but telling of some deep insecurity. Me, I am brown and love it, and I dont want to be descended from any other place than the beautiful land of five rivers, and the more I have in common with other beautiful desis the better :-)

punjabi boy,

of course, it isn't just punjabis. you get strange bedfellows when ideology trumps facts. i have seen both brahmim supremacists and dalit radicals promoting the idea that tamil brahmins are more closely related to central asians than other tamils based on one study from the late 1990s. i have talked to many bangladeshi muslims to be descended from turks, persians and afghans. and so on.

one analogy that i think is worthwhile is europe:south asia. no one would deny that europeans are diverse, with many languages, religions and physical types. but, there is a certain overall category, and historical, cultural and genetic similarities which show through the differences. same with south asia. they are in fact even the same size, and until recent, about the same population (i'm excluding russia).

razib

You mention Brahmin supremacists. I have seen the whole Scythian warrior thing become a small fashion amongst some Jat Sikhs, and of course, lots and lots of Pakistani Punjabis are descended from Arabs. Its amazing the way that so many groups seem to want distance themselves from their roots. Anyway, it provides some unintended comedy and insight!

Did anybody catch the pbs documentary last night on Kerela.

Its interesting that the natives of Kerela and an average Punjabi looking person look completely different.

I guess we need to stop using the term 'South Asian' especially on this topic because people from a state like Kerela look completely different from lets say a state like Punjab.

no, but my sister told me about a program on KerAla. she did not, however, mention that an adequate cross-section of mallus were depicted, so that one could make useful generalisations.

sigh.

presumptuous assumptions used to divide people into lumps, son. what does a typical malayalee look like? if you had asked my father, he would have proudly pointed at me.

BUT during the last three "north indian" social events i attended, i was asked if i was:

a) bengali
b) gujurati
c) punjabi

by people FROM north india. aunties and uncles from north india, to be exact.

why does this even matter? it's not clear-cut. it can't be. the "average" punjabi vs the "natives" of karela or whatever you think my ancestral state is called don't need to be pitted against each other.

my jat sikh ex-bf's cousin was smaller and darker than i was. the same jat sikh ex- thought that my mother was punjabi, when he met her for the first time, due to her relatively fair colouring, hairless arms and prominent proboscis.

a tamil ex- was lighter and five inches taller than an ex- whose last name was aggarwal. there's a range, people. EVERYWHERE. and i don't think that i only run into exceptions to the rule, or that i am one either.

who CARES?

we're all "south asian", on this thread and elsewhere for many reasons. apparently the only reason you care about is a very shallow one called "appearance". racists see no colour, neither should we.

and for the record, i'm fine with KK playing this character, though i cringe at her "partition" comment. and yes, i know paki girls who look like her. blah blah blah, meaningless bullshit on race blah blah blah.

I'd like to see some genetic evidence, but its not just a wacky theory that punjabi jats might have some of their heritage from central asia

but its not just a wacky theory that punjabi jats might have some of their heritage from central asia

some is the key. most of their ancestry is probably not "exogenous."

this paper sets the "high bound" for the possibility of exogenous ancestry in north south asians. it focuses on the patrlineage, which is generally skewed toward exogenous lines because so many people coming in from the northwest into india have had sex imbalances.

in any case, the point is that some groups, whether that be brahmins, punjabis or bengalis* tend to emphasize the minority of their ancestry that separates them from other south asians rather than the majority. it is only human, but people need to grow up....

* when japan beat the russians in the russo-japanese war bengali intellectuals all of a sudden took pride in the fact that there was/is some mongoloid ancestry among them.

ANNA

the same jat sikh ex- thought that my mother was punjabi, when he met her for the first time, due to her relatively fair colouring, hairless arms and prominent proboscis.

LoL

Oye!

Leave our prominent proboscises alone!

They are sexy

what about back hair?

Warning: Imminent Simpsons moment

the "average" punjabi vs the "natives" of karela or whatever you think my ancestral state is called don't need to be pitted against each other.

Mmmmmm.....karela.....

I hope to God, they do not try to claim that both sides (the Hindu-Sikh-Buddist victims & the Pakistani military supported Muslim partitioners) were at fault.

Because the Indians had no weapons, were burnt out of thier homes, I lost my Grandfather to fellow Muslims, who though he was Hindu, so the neighborhood people Burned Him alive and killed his Cows.

Almost every death was on the fleeing Hindu-Sikh-Buddist side, my kin the Muslims side was in power. Because we had a Military who agitated us to kill non belivers. But the Indians had no Sikh regiments no Hindu regiments, as they all were protecting Ghandi and Nehru and daughter.

A N N A,

The Kerela women have 3 inch long hairs in there Underarms, my ex-Kerela girlfriend was a typical example. I often would handpluck her underarms, while she slept, and she would look shocked at seeing some bare skin for the next month. haaah heee!

Kerela woman your famous underarms, do the nation proud.

Mujahid:

Did anybody catch the pbs documentary last night on Kerela.
Its interesting that the natives of Kerela and an average Punjabi looking person look completely different.

There is no archetypical Indian racial type.It ranges from the fairly light skinned Kashmiris/Punjus to the (in general) tan South Indian , to the Mongoloid type features of people from the North East (Nagaland etc).

As far as that Kristin chick, yeah it is definitely a miscast .She looks more Assamese than Punjabi.
The average American joe cannot even tell the difference between Arabs and Indians, so these intricacies are probably beyond them.

"The average American joe cannot even tell the difference between Arabs and Indians, so these intricacies are probably beyond them."

Ahh, but now what about the average Sardar-Canuck, can he tell the difference? See my earlier post about why Sarin chose to cast Kreuk and then know that Kreuk is from British Columbia, Telefilm Canada is funding and...

I think we all know Kreuk isn't a good decision, but funny how there's no applause for the fact that an independent about Partition is getting Hollywood billing, not to mention a score by Ustad Ravi Shankar & Phillip Glass...

Everyone bitches about South Asians getting shafted in Hollywood and then when someone doesn't, they get the shaft by their own people for not getting it "just right." Cut the project some slack, as its a far better idea than crap like "American Desi," a film in which I truly wish they'd used non-Indians.

Anna,
I apologize for spelling Kerala as Kerela. The reason I posted this comment was that a lot of people here were lamenting the lack of 'South Asians' in movies.
By referring to Kerala and comparing it to Punjab, I was pointing out the diversity of South Asia and the fact that South Asia has all kinds of people living in it and there is no typical 'South Asian' looking person.

I partially agree with the statement that an average American cannot tell the difference between Arabs and Indians.
I wonder how true this is in big cities.
I have a lot of Palestinian/Jordanian friends. No one has ever asked them if they were Indians. Some North Indians do get confused for Arabs. Which raises an interesting question. Why is that the Indians are more likely to be confused for Arabs than the Arabs are to be confused for Indians ?

Well Al M, Indians are confused for Arabs because there has been a longer history and acquaintenace with Arabs than Indians. Also, in the US people have simpler discriminatory powers (bless them). I can distinguish a native English, Scottish, German, Swedish, Italian native person somewhat easily. However I suspect most average americans unless told the last name would have trouble distinguishing native whites by country (non-US). In the US, I get routinely confused for being Arab,Spanish,Mexican,Indian,Pakistani. This lack of discrimination, however desirable, is not to be taken as a endorsement of racial onenes..

To go a bit off tangent; I suspect, in your mind you have a continuous scale for humans where punjabis fall closer to whites while keralites are closer to blacks. So, if one were to squint a bit, it is a small step from punjabi to arab to italian to white right? Punjabis are deeply tanned whites right, check out the photoshop pictures? To support this point you will claim to have descended from a cave in the caucus mountains further north than those southies. Of course, nobody, except you, gives a damn about this stupid scale. In the US (and UK) you have only two groups - the whites and the darks. You, my friend Al M are a dark. Punjabis (and other north indians) who are openly racist in India towards south Indians -- those damn darkies, southies, madrasis, dravids, we are aryan warriors, we eat wheat and drink ghee --- have a shock of their life when they come to the west and the leave the civilized bubble-like life of the college/work. Dyeing your hair blonde, wearing green/blue contact ain't turing you white. Even German Jews and Italians are barely acceptable as whites, you think you are going to pass off as white??? Reality is that you are a dark. Accept it and work with your fellow darks to build a strong power and economic base and life will be good. Once you have the power you can come to the table and talk with the whites as fellow humans worthy of respect and on equal terms. Keep going on this foolish quest of your semi-white ancestry and there will remain a marginal player.

A Dark

Your rant was misplaced. Al Mujahid is not the slightest way inclined to think the way that you assume he does. He doesnt give a damn about skin colour. The pompous lecture about Punjabis was amusing though.

;-)

I have a lot of Palestinian/Jordanian friends

Kerela woman your famous underarms, do the nation proud.

JILL or should i call you by your other name, Aktar Ahmed,

seriously, GFY. your immaturity must make you reeeeal popular with the ladies.

BUT during the last three "north indian" social events i attended, i was asked if i was:

a) bengali
b) gujurati
c) punjabi

by people FROM north india. aunties and uncles from north india, to be exact.

To put forward a counterpoint, the community I am emotionally (as opposed to politically) attached to is Bengali (and specifically middle/upper middle class Upper Caste Hindu West Bengali diaspora in New York). I did not grow up feeling emotionally attached to labels like desi or South Asian because the people I hung out with and loved and shared hand-me-downs with and visited on weekends were bengali and spoke bangla with me.

I value my bengali connections, i relate more closely to them, i speak the same language, and i love them. They're like a surrogate extended family, even though I have interests and other things in common with all kinds of people outside of that. I'm not going to limit myself to them, but I'm also not going to pretend that they've substantively influenced me emotionally and in my growth in ways that other desi communities simply have not.

Beyond that, I can tell you that, having done a lot of activist outreach, I can pick out a Bengali person by features 8 times out of 10. Of course, it's a little easier for me in New York since it seems like 8 out of 10 desis are bengali :) I'm not saying that this is the best strategy to get through life; just that it's possible when you need to speak to people about something and know whether they're bengali. For example, if you're talking about genocide or language identity, a Pakistani is going to have a much different take on it than a Bengali.

The last thing is that in spaces when we're all "south asian" like this thread, doesn't that make it more important to point out and celebrate and deal with our differences (like north subcontinent vs. south indian, different ethnicities, class, caste, gender, sexuality, etc.). When we have to do it so often in the outside world for reasons beyond our control, why should we obliterate the nuances of our "community" (which are really many communities)?

A Dark,
How do you know if I am from North India or from Punjab ?
You are accusing me of being racist against South Indians. Where exactly did I say racist things against South Indians ?

By the way, if you haven't already, check out this essay by Manish Vij for his very incisive take on similar issues.

The last thing is that in spaces when we're all "south asian" like this thread, doesn't that make it more important to point out and celebrate and deal with our differences (like north subcontinent vs. south indian, different ethnicities, class, caste, gender, sexuality, etc.). When we have to do it so often in the outside world for reasons beyond our control, why should we obliterate the nuances of our "community" (which are really many communities?

saurav,

when my words aren't effective enough, i use those of a better;

I pledge allegiance to my dual homelands, and I hereby promise:

...To set aside the maze of fractures within our communities and unite as South Asians. Remember, others don't distinguish between Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, Nepali, or Indian. We are all brown to them.

just b/c the man cannot discern and divide us appropriately, that doesn't mean that WE should do it as a reaction to their ignorance.

sadly, we haven't righted enough wrongs to take such luxuries.

getting back to the issue of KK being the starring role in the movie, here is where i have ended up

1) the ideal situation is that a punjabi muslim woman who had grandparents who went through partition hell was cast.
2) the second best situation, though to my mind, nearly as good, is that a sikh or hindu woman was found who had grandparents who went through partition hell.
3) or a south asian is found to play the role.
4) or a non-south asian is found to play the role.

for me, the most important element of "authenticity" is familial experience of tragedy during partition, i don't think muslim, hindu or sikh origin is that important. it is for this reason that i think that it isn't that big of a difference if a non-south asian is cast for it if the alternative is someone from a gujarati or tamil background, because these two ethnicities would not have transmitted the same memories.

on the spectrum of preference familial-partition-experience is a much bigger deal (to me) than having the requisite brown skin. by definition someone who is non-brown won't have that experience, but many brown people won't have it either.

i just wasted 1/2 hr wading thru this rather stupid discussion and it goes onto prove that just as u can make a man out of a monkey u cannot take out the monkey out of a man- U CAN MAKE AND AMERICAN INTO A DESI BUT U CANNOT TAKE OUT DESI PREJUDICES FROM A SOUTH ASIAN DESI. Be proud that a cute young firangi chick is going to act as a girl from undivided india (pardon the freudian slip of my bias). remeber we all r like chickoos brown outside and brown inside!

incidentally kk looks just like my cousin shinki - way bak in 1970 when she was young. and to put the record staight - i am from punjab. welcome kk - as an hon member to the Punju community

sadly, we haven't righted enough wrongs to take such luxuries.

There are counterproductive reasons (like ego or a refusal to develop effective ways of communicating) people go off and create their own spaces or organization, but to force all desis to obey the party line and pretend we're all the same is counterproductive too. We have one piece of ourselves in common but we're very varied otherwise (by ethnicity and a host of other factors, including language, sexual orientation, gender, how many generations we're removed from South Asia, politics, faith, level of faith, etc.).

Recognizing our differences doesn't mean we're obliterating our commonalities or more importantly that we won't work together politically on the common issues that affect us; in fact, it's when my right to define myself is not recognized, and I'm forced to be take on an identity I don't want, that I feel alienated and frustrated and divisive. That's why I think the goal of creating unified political action to right wrongs is actually undermined by top-down calls for unity. Unity is something you build voluntarily through shared experiences and connections, not rigid adherence to an identity that's sometimes politically useful and sometimes not.

For example, if queer desis from Trinidad, Jamaica, and/or Barbados want to create a separate space from the queer "South Asian" space, in the long run, we're going to be able to work together better for our collective interests if I support them. The alternative, for me, is to argue with them that they're really desi and not Indo-Caribbean or Trinidadian or however they define themselves, and that's demeaning to them and to me. It also undermines the overall purpose of creating unified action on issues that affect their self-defined community and mine by eroding trust and hurting personal relationships.

That's not to say that there aren't times when horse trading and coalitions of necessity and all those other things aren't relevant and necessary; but it's a gross way of operating politically that doesn't really work as a long-term strategy for building communities, organizations, movements, etc. that will actually be able to right wrongs.

Just as a thought excercise, take your argument and replace "desi" with "Asian American"; it turns out to be a horribly annoying situation like the kind that exists in many pan-Asian spaces for many desis doing political work.

To get back to the matter of casting non-South Asians into South Asian roles - combining this news with the earlier news that Halle Berry may play ACLU lawyer Vanita Gupta, it looks like the chances for Indians to play Indians is getting slimmer. Yet, most Arab or Persian characters on television are portrayed by aspiring IA actors. So in Hollywood, an Indian can play an Arab, a black/white girl or Asian/white girl can play an India - simply hiring a qualified Indian for an Indian role (or Arab for an Arab role) does not really test the talents of those enormously skilled Hollywood casting directors (Ben Affleck as a CIA analyst, John Wayne as Genghis Khan)

As for the whole idea of South Asian as a viable identity, this was published in today's Calcutta Telegraph:

"To Be Ever More Itself - From an Indian point of view, South Asia is a well-meant fiction"
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050327/asp/opinion/story_4517236.asp

KXB,
The Telegraph article was was brilliant.

It summed up to me ,why India is the most important and remarkable democracy in the world.

It summed up to me ,why India is the most important and remarkable democracy in the world.

I hadn't realized that the Indian government had followed the lead of the Bush Administration in buying people to influence debates in public forums. Do they pay well, George?

Saurav,

A hyper-critical Bengali - how original.

The author criticizes all other South Asian countries for being majoritarian, and for lacking truly inclusive democracies. He says India is different. It is a pluralist democracy.

This is probably true. However, the term South Asian has the potential to be just as inclusive and accomodating as Mr. Kesavan thinks India is. It is a term that can unify despite the effects of partition and 50 years of bitterness and hatred. In disaporic locations like the US and UK, it has indeed been a tool of unification. As such, it is not to be dismissed so lightly.

Yeah they pay me well but not as much as Musharraf pays you.

A hyper-critical Bengali - how original.

You left out: hegemonizing, exclusive, fish-and-rice dependent, sweet-toothed, effete, over-intellectual, pot-bellied, short, narrow-eyed, and lazy.

Thanks for stereotyping me; it makes you look real good.

"You left out: hegemonizing, exclusive, fish-and-rice dependent, sweet-toothed, effete, over-intellectual, pot-bellied, short, narrow-eyed, and lazy. Thanks for stereotyping me; it makes you look real good."

Like "I hadn't realized that the Indian government had followed the lead of the Bush Administration in buying people to influence debates in public forums. Do they pay well, George?" gives you a sterling sheen?

A N N A said:

what does a typical malayalee look like?...me

Not to sound offensive or anything, but no way are you a typical malayalee, molle! [Running fast and taking cover - pant, pant!]

You are more of what I would call mallu exotica.

And just for the record people, its Kerala not Kerela, Karela, Kela or anything in between. Of course Keralam, Mallu-land, Coconut Lagoon and the like would come closer than the other misnomers.

I'm really exited about this show.I think Kristin will look like a Pakistani if she wears long, fake eyelashes & outline her eyes.She doesn't need to put darker makeup coz she is quite tanned. Could anyone inform me on this message board when partition pics are exibited on any websites?

What she looks like isn't even the biggest problem, people. Have you ever seen Smallville? Kristin isn't exactly a top-notch actress.

Unless she's supposed to whisper and whine her way through the entire movie, I don't see this working.

Yes Silly, because whining is characterizes that some actors have when it comes to acting. It's not a characterize that’s written in a script for an actor to act out, not at all! Who would be silly enough to think that?

Same goes for the whispering. The director is the one that directors how the actors talk and act out scenes. He/she is the one that tells them how to talk throughout a scene out.

Watch Edgemont in it's first season, before Smallville. Kristin never whispers on that series, she speaks very clearly.

That’s right, she told TV Guide… that she’s excited… about… Partition. Isn’t that kind of like telling Soap Opera Digest that you’re excited about the Holocaust?

^ LMAO? WTF! I don't get that, how is stating you're excited for a role sums up that you're happy for the events that went on in the movie?

So if I said I thought Schindlers List was a great movie, does that mean I thought the Holocaust was great? WTF?

Try re-reading it with a :) on the end.

Aaahhhh, much better. Relief is spelled GSOH.

You're just twisting her words.

You’re telling me now to re-read it with a :) just proves that you're again trying to look for something that's not even there with what she said.

And even if it was said with a :) it doesn't prove anything, you weren't there when she said it you have no idea what's Kristin's feelings towards the events that happened in Partition.

Also TV Guide just defined Partition as... and I quote: "a love story set at the border of Pakistan and India."

So if they were so cut and dry about what the movie was about, why not with Kristin's quote about the movie?

Whatever bias you have for Kristin I think you should had left it at the door before posting this write up.

Because you’re just looking for the worst in Kristin just because you disagree that she was cast in the role.

You’re telling me now to re-read it with a :) just proves that you're again trying to look for something that's not even there with what she said.

You're right. You're way funnier than I am.

What she looks like isn't even the biggest problem, people. Have you ever seen Smallville? Kristin isn't exactly a top-notch actress.

Forget Smallville, did you see her in Eurotrip?! Now that was a pantheon performance... she's sounded like a valley girl in every role she's played, it'll be shocking if she manages to do this part any justice

drug barons,gangland britain article’s: 11th Jul 2005 - 20:35 GMT
(a reprt by the guardian)Traditional crime families
Picking up where the Krays left off, today’s crime families shun the limelight but, according to the National Criminal Intelligence Service, still represent the greatest threat to law and order. Active in all criminal activities from drugs and prostitution to money-laundering and protection, they have the advantage of occupying their home turf, thus forcing all other gangs to strike allegiances or risk constant confrontations.

Albanian and Pakistani mafia

The new kids on the block. Heavily involved in prostitution and trafficking of illegal aliens, the Albanian and new Pakistani gangsters are now using their foothold in the UK to launch themselves into the drug business, particularly the heroin trade. Police fear bloody clashes with Turkish and Pakistani gangsters who currently control the market. New Pakistani gangsters may clash with there old Pakistani counterparts to take over the drugs empire, Studies show that the most influential and ruthless ringleader of the pp gang called Prince Riz is the most dangerous and frequent threat to the heroin trade, Prince Riz is a millionaire gangster from eastlondon heavily involved in money laundering, protection rackets, extortion, importing humans from his native country pakistan, taxing top end clubs and ring leading local criminal activities in the area, this high profile criminal has been described as the new Reggie Kray

By the guardian on 07.11.05 11:41 pm

hey when is the movie coming out? they really dont answer your questions well and what do the actors look like dont you think these things are important well i do. But I love smallville I have seen every episode twice and Kristen Kreuk is so cool in that show I just hope her and clark get back together on it. KRISTEN YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i think kristin kreuk is a great actress.most likely the director thought she had potential for the role.i mean she wasen't cast as naseem for nothing.i also think she is great on smallville,lana has grown tremendously over the seasons,and as a actor so has kristin.i am looking forward to seeing this film.i also read somewhere kristin had researched for the part a little.she spoke to a few indian women,she wanted to represent the character with great respect and dignity.so i think she will bring justice to the role.you guys should at least give the film a chance maybe see it first then start posting your opions.i can't hardly wait for this movie,oh and to hear kristin's accent in it.kristin keep working hard because you rock,so does smallville.i really am huge fans of you both.

I'm amused how many here think Kreuk cannot pull off the Pakistani thing. Both my parents are from the north east Punjab. My father is tall, fair and almost white looking while my mom looks like a mix of chinese and south asian complete with a small nose and almond shaped eyes. I came out looking something like if Kruek had a brother (but taller and more manly of course). Just look at the people from Himchal Pradesh and some regions of north east Pakistan, they look really oriental asian. Food for thought.

Caucasian is some what a bogus term, alomost as bogus as a white or black identity. Although black has its origins in oppressed peoples from sub-saharan africa starting with trans-atlantic slave trade, jim crow laws and even now. Where as White come about during the 17th century, and is more of privalige identity for those with fair skin. All about oppressing the other, especially the total opposite to white, black. Please read Whiteness Studies by Roel Ignatiev, John Garvey etc.
On the Caucasian identity, goto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race . Indians in there.
Also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28historical_definitions%29 and see how racial terms have changed over time. Hell check out all, race, racial pseduo sciences etc. Its wikipedia!

A Lot of you guys sound like a bunch of little hitlers or 19th century racial pseduo scientists. Determing racial characteristics for classifications.

http://pasheman.blogspot.com/2007/02/barbaric-brown-men-and-civilized-white.html

please see this link for a recent article we wrote on the film

Well not all Punjabis are Scythians, but some are. I don't look like the small, dark and gumpy looking people there. I'm totally a 6'4" tall, 220 lbs. White Scythian, not just in complection, but in those jagged Iranic/Germanic Scythian features. U.S. Born, and a U.S. Marine too. Not some unkempt, short darkie, goofy looking son of a bitch like most of those Indian fuckers are. Don't forget about the Pashtunic, Scythian, White Hun, Magog descendents who decided to stay on the Indian side during 1947. And changed their names to Singh. I got nothing in common with most Singhs, I'm all-American here. My blood's totally of White Hun/Scythian and Greek lineage. I should change my name back to our original Scythic/Hun and Greek surnames, before my ancestors made the hair brained idea to stay on the Indian side. When they should have fought hard to preserve their Princely States, which do not belong to India or Pakistan. I got nothing in common with Desis in appearance and culture. They're as bad as the Muslims! The problem is, is that most here aren't NOT Scythians, so they won't understand, but it's foolish to claim that all are Scythic, or none are Scythic. However some are. Also a lot of pure Scythians left India in 1947 and the time after that to come to America. Since their high civilization of their Princely States were robbed and dissolved by the Desis. No worries, though, we're florishing well here. Just I'm against the current immigration of all these undesirables who don't belong in America. The immigration rules of the 1950's, 1960's were excellent in America. But not anymore, today. With the way things are going, America's gonna be another 3rd World cesspool if they don't close the doors to immigration. But it's all Commie New World Order and the Bibilical End Times now. So go figure.

CORRECTION OF ERROR(S) FROM MY LAST POST:

Error 1: "Most here aren't NOT Scythians" - That made no sense, or means there are no Scythians here.

Correction 1: Most here are NOT Scythians. - Exactly. Most here are NOT Scythians, although some are.

Bottom line, everyone knows "India" circa 1947, is nothing more than a conglomerate of many nationalities, cultures, religions
languages and races. All lumped into a political nation. Of course most are Dravidians, or peoples with a considerable concentration
of Dravidian blood. But not everyone. There's the pure Negros, the pure Naga Chinese Races, and of course the White Races, as in Greeks, Scythians, Huns, Georgians, Persians and Aryans. Which total around 2% to 3% mainly in the Warrior and Priestly Castes. Regardless to what you are, what you look like, your race, your beliefs, your culture, don't forget you're a Human Being. And when people stop showing respect to others or erasing their heritages or slandering and deceiving others or spreading malicious lies and promoting conflict because of their intolerances, then you get failed 3rd World Nations. There will be an opposite reaction to all this. And it won't be pleasent. It'll end up like the failed States of India and Pakistan and much of the Middle East. Where intolerance towards people is the norm. Everyone knows the regions of India, The Middle East, even Europe and America are all Melting Pots. Most of the World are Melting Pots and blends of people, with the exception of Mainland China and Japan. And a few regions in Scandanavia. But who cares. What really matters is respecting others for who they are and what they believe. The Greeks/Scythians of India claim themselves to be of Greco-Scythic lineages, and look like Greeks and Scyths. So why disrespect them and claim they are not? It isn't like India is one monolithic race of people. But instead a multitude of many races. The true Hindu count in India is less than 20% if that. Dravidians and Negros lumped as "low caste hindus" is not only hilarious, but a sick joke. The Sakas, Greeks, Huns, Persians in blood in the northwest look like Sakas, Greeks, Huns and Persians. So respect them for who they are if you seek to gain any respect back. Anyone can adopt another religion, another langauge, another culture, but it won't change their race. Provided they don't mix. But language, names and religion don't neccessarily have anything to do with race. Forgive me if I disprected anyone here in my last comment. But it seems as though Dravidians are just as racist as Scythic/Aryans were in the past. Either way it isn't right, and is the cause of why the 3rd World is the failed 3rd World. And not a tolerant, advanced and developed 1st World. Thank You.

racist, abusive, illiterate, content-free or commercial comments; personal, non-issue-focused flames; intolerant or anti-secular comments; and long, obscure rants may be deleted

SM Intern:
# 84, 86 kinda hits each one of these - no? :-)

Don't delete however.Let the fun begin.

Darling, this is what's known as a "teaching moment." ;)