ouch.

If Pakistan had a freer press, they'd develop a thicker hide over what sounds like a pretty run-of-the-mill editorial cartoon.

Someone actually reads the Washington Times? Amazing.

If Pakistan had a freer press, they'd develop a thicker hide over what sounds like a pretty run-of-the-mill editorial cartoon.

agree and disagree...yes, free press is always good.

BUT (and as an amreekan who doesn't speak Hindi, i could be mistaken) i thought "dog" was especially disrespectful? i know my father used the malayalam word for it in front of certain other choice words to REALLY insult someone.

if my assumption is correct, wouldn't something "run of the mill" for us be genuinely offensive over there?

... wouldn't something "run of the mill" for us be genuinely offensive over there?

Comparing a country to a dog is offensive here as well, and yet there are plenty of cartoons this week showing Tony Blair as America's pooch. Yes, it's more offensive in desi culture, like how shoes/sandals are, but to me the reaction smacks more of political hurt than cultural.

IMO the commonplace dog-as-faithful-servant metaphor isn't as deeply offensive as this cartoon.

Yeah, I think if it was a non-Islamic country than it wouldn't be so bad, just standard political cartoon offensive. Which, you know, arent meant to be sweet. But Islamic culture isn't too keen on dogs. . .much more so than Hindu culture. . .there was an article about this a while back because Musharraf actually keeps dogs, and this is supposed to be a sign of how modern he is. (Along with the fact that he shaves, drinks, and his daughter is married to a Shiite.) I think Mohammad was supposed to be a cat person and some people take this as a sign? Somebody tell me if I'm misremembering.

Perhaps the anger can be explained from the Bollywood refrain:

"KUTTEY-kameenay...main tera khoon pee jaoonga" (Dog/evil man - I will drink your blood) commonly used against the baddies ....popularized by Dharmendra in the 60s and 70s - much less used now.

Seriously, on a somewhat related topic, click here for an excellent analysis (not my own) on Gen. Musharaff and his manipulation of the US policy .

I'm not sure, but I think dogs, being one of the "unclean beasts," are considered haram (forbidden) in the Islamic tradition. Growing up in the burbs, we had some palestinian friends whose parents forbade them from touching/petting/playing w/ any of the dogs in the neighborhood, including our own irrestibly cuddly siberian husky.

Can a Muslim brotha/sista please enlighten us?

It might be a harmless cartoon to us, but in countries like India and Pakistan, US is already viewed as the big bad bully.

Already thinking along those lines with a little instigation from the right wingers and the extremists I can totally see how the general population might have found a not-so-offensive cartoon, offensive.

And just to add I dont think its about the dog as much as the whole 'cartoonification' (I know thats not a word) of this whole image of US as the master and Pakistan as the slave

Yes, dogs are considered unclean and should stay away from it according to islamic custom. Even touching the dogs are prohibited - I guess it probably all started with the fear of rabies in the absence of any efficacious treatment. Interestly I have heard of some Shite sects who don't have a problem with dogs. I am not sure about it though..

It's just a cartoon. We need to stop worrying about PC-ness everywhere :-)

Its slightly offensive but I'm sort of glad they are pissed about it...maybe it will give them an insight into what Pakistan's relationship with the US really is (being the US's bitch).

It is offensive, but the point is that it is a cartoon, and cartoons are often to meant to point out the crass reality - don't we all know that U.S. is not treating PAkistan as an ally rather someone to do the grunt work, much like northen alliance in Afghanistan. They would do the killings, abuse, human rights violations etc in the name of americans without actually involving American soldiers - they are the savage frontier of America's war on terror. And though it is offensive, it is right on.

don't we all know that U.S. is not treating PAkistan as an ally rather someone to do the grunt work, much like northen alliance in Afghanistan.

The Pakistani government is hardly blameless. Let's not forget who cultivated the terrorists.

Vij: Throw a rock into a crowd...

The Picture in question. Could it be taken to be offensive? Considering that it could imply that Pakistan follows each and every command of the US, then yes. As mentioned earlier, Pakistanis within the country tend to be a bit touchy about the idea of Pakistan and the US having a "special relationship."

Mind you, Bill Garner's response hardly helps.

"There has always been a great friendship with animals, especially dogs, in America".

Woo, boy.

There was an article in the UK's Eastern Eye a couple months ago about a Muslim guy (late teens or early 20s, I think) who fell to his death off a cliff in a park because a dog came running at him and he was trying to get away from it. The article explained how Muslims can't ever touch dogs.

Let's not forget who cultivated the terrorists.

You mean the US government? ;)

Saurav

Was the Pakistani government an innocent virginal witless child with no responsibility or control over its own agency? Pakistan cultivated the Islamic extremists after Russia left Afghanistan so that they could kill Hindus in Kashmir and keep the Jihad and violent Islamic cause bubbling around the world. Get a grip.

"Was the Pakistani government an innocent virginal witless child with no responsibility or control over its own agency? Pakistan cultivated the Islamic extremists after Russia left Afghanistan so that they could kill Hindus in Kashmir and keep the Jihad and violent Islamic cause bubbling around the world. Get a grip."

All that is true - but none of that would have done a thing without massive help from U.S. It is even accepted now that U.S provoked Russia to invade Afghanistan - this might sound extreme, but check the facts, you would be surprised. U.S. started funding Mujahideen months before the invasion. Islamic terrorism has existed since the times of colonialism, but it never gained as much strength until American money started funding them.

well, to all thsoe who think this is not offensive, in hindi or urdu one of the worst things you can call someone is a "kala kuttha" which directly translates into "black dogg". theres also "kuttha ki olaat" which means "son of a dog". the dog is considerred a dirty animal in the north of india and the majority of pakistan. Hence the insult this has garnerred. Now, i also find it hillarious that indians are here claiming that pakistan supports terrorism when the indian army has killed damn near 100 000 civilians in kashmir (yeah, the pakistani government really seems to be out to kill hindus right?? funny how numbers usually disagree with personal bias), deiced to bomb the golden temple in 84 (btw, i know the responce always given to this 'there were terrorists and guns inside'. since we're going on that tip, they should be equally hostile toward all those nutty hindutva, shiv sena rss maan chaudes), stood idly by while muslims were being killed, tortured, raped in gujhrat. should i continue? The indian government could write a bloody book on human rights violations. if you disagree, feel free to ask one of the thousands of people who just up and vanished in kashmir.....great magic trick no? The taliban was originally funded by america to fight the soviets. Once again, this is something that most people know about, yet conveniently forget to mention. the Taleban were actually sufi muslims to start with, and although i have serious issues with alot of the things they did, they worked hard at burning the poppy feilds and disarming the public. Btw, the poppy feilds are back now, gotta love that US consumerism.

Taliban Sufi muslims? Yeah right, considering that sufism is BANNED in Saudi for having anscestor and tomb worship and hence kafir influences I highly doubt the Taliban were soft loveable singing and dancing music. Oh yes, music and dancing was another thing banner by the Taliban. They are about as Sufi as I am I am Alaskan.

The rest of the stuff you have mentioned is so full of half truths and lies that its not even worth retorting to.

if americans love dogs so much, then why is it that the term "son of a bitch" is considered abusive?? after all, what is a dog?? a son of a bitch, right??

Taliban Sufi muslims?

Sure! Why, don't you remember that Ghalib shairee about shooting adulterers in the head in soccer stadiums?

All that is true - but none of that would have done a thing without massive help from U.S. It is even accepted now that U.S provoked Russia to invade Afghanistan - this might sound extreme, but check the facts, you would be surprised. U.S. started funding Mujahideen months before the invasion. Islamic terrorism has existed since the times of colonialism, but it never gained as much strength until American money started funding them.

What are the facts behind the American provoked invasion of Afghanistan? This is twisted conpiracy theory and America as the Devil against whom the ummah must launch a Jihad to destroy idiocy of the highest type. And if it is true that the Pakistani Government was rubbing its hands with glee at the prospect of killing Hindus in Kashmir and bleeding India with a thousand cuts and proliferating nuclear secrets to Islamic dictatorships and ipso facto supporting the globalist Islamic fundamentalist blood bath, why should I care about Islamic conspiracies that paint America as Satan who even does mind control tricks so that Islamic governments and even Muslim intellectuals abdicate responsibility and basically categorise themselves as idiot-savant children who need their diapers changed and cant take responsibility for the consequences of their own hateful and freely chosen actions and ideologies?

We just dont buy this. It is absolute nonsense.

nas

At least a million people were killed in the 1971 Bangladesh genocide, the raping and slaughter of which were horrific. In a million years, the RSS could not dream of slaughtering that many Muslims, and yet those rapists and genocidalists were given a heroes welcome back in Lahore. We will leave aside the slow steady extermination of non Muslims from Pakistans populace, the tens of thousands of Shias and Ahmaddiyas and Christians killed in state terrorist killings and persecutions, the thousands killed by the Pakistani army in the 1970's Baluchi insurgency, the thousands slaughtered in Karachi in the 1980's, the thousands slaughtered as a result of the Pakistani Army's terrorist ideology and the maassacres carried out by their proxies in Kashmir, Afghanistan and elswhere, the fact that Pakistan is synonymous as having been a soft home for Al-Qaeda and that all trails of 9/11 touched and intersected with Pakistan at some point.

I'm not defending the RSS, I am pointing out the stupidity in getting in a pissing match over this when the hands of the Pakistani state is so clearly drenched in horror that dwarfs the horrors of India in sheer terms of scale and genocide.

To educate yourself, start your reading here, here, and here .

Note too that Hindus were specifically singled out for slaughter. More Hindus were killed in a few days of the 1971 genocide than have been killed in communal rioting in India since partition.

Taliban were sufi's indeed. The sheer arrogant stupidity and moronic cluelessness of some people is breathtaking.

we PAKISTANIS can only think how does this affect it on our hearts and feelings! We are muslims and u all should care about the fellings of a muslim compared to a DOG. If any other country is labelled as a dog, wont that pirticular country rebell against it???
just think for a moment that u are abused as a dog(whatever the concequences) wont u mind people mind that? Pakistan is not a multi-national country and we care about our nationality and our culture. I know that no country is able to rebell against america or even seek a mercy, but leaving all about that cartoon, what do u all think about what they did to the Holy Quran and it's pages a few days ago??? It is said that " Khuda ke han daer hai andher nahi". i am waiting for something to happen against those____________. America would rather be happy at this incident but i am deeply sorrowed to see the conditions of any other believer other than a christain.
......Umar

Nas Nas Nas, you poor soul, how ignorent are you. Dont utter nonsense and check ur facts. People like you are spreading hatred and cannot say one positive thing about anything. Just calm down mate. Read here then u will find out what i mean. Taliban my dear NAS are not fond of Sufism...... Stop spreading nonsense.

Afghanistan: Sufi Brotherhoods Reemerge After The Fall Of The Taliban
By Dan Alexe

Kabul has again become a center for Islamic mysticism, or Sufism, a term used to describe those who are interested in inner knowledge or finding the path toward inner awakening and enlightenment. After the flight of the Taliban, every neighborhood in Afghanistan's capital now seems to have its own Sufi brotherhood.......................................

..interested? Read more by pressing the following link:

http://www.rferl.org/features/2002/02/01022002104035.asp

I dont know if it was NAS or RED SNAPPER. Anyway you know what i mean and to whom i a have referred the last message.

Taliban were sufi's indeed. The sheer arrogant stupidity and moronic cluelessness of some people is breathtaking.

Yes and no. From an Islamist perspective yes the Taliban were sufis. But in terms of common everyday usage Sufi refers to the gnostic-muslims, so you are just mincing words.

I am no expert but here's how I (mis?)understand it -

- Taliban were Deobandis.
- Deobandis like to call themselves Sufis and call the mystic Sufis heritic.
- The mystic Sufis in turn like to call the Deobandi Sufis - Wahhabis.
- The Deobandi Sufis deny this, they counter that as Hanafis the obviously can't be Wahhabis.
- The Barelevi Hanafis think that the Deobandis aren't really real Hanafis.
- This aside Hanafis often allege that the Salafis are Wahhabis.
- The Salafis see this as a derogatory term and resent it deeply.
- The moderate Salafis blame the Qutbis for giving Salafisim a bad name.
- The Qutbis are conservatives who claim that they are the true Salafis.
- Qutbis also claim that the moderates are just obsfucating the meaning and allege that Islam is being corrupted by Western Liberalism.
- Western liberals allege that Islam is misunderstood, while misundertanding it themselves and blame Western conservatives.
- The western conservatives think that Islam is a monolithic block and misunderstand it.