July 04, 2005
A more perfect union (updated)History
‘… Thine alabaster cities gleam
undimmed by human tears…
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free! … (Did Ayn Rand know about this?)
Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!
Happy birthday, sweet land of liberty. I love my country tremendously, but the intertwined backstories of the good ol’ U.S. of A. and desi Americans are replete with historical irony. The übermutinous Declaration of Independence was signed 229 years ago on this day:
Prudence… will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes… But when a long train of abuses… reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government… The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries… the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States…
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither…Asian Indian students who were supporters of independence from the British Empire were expelled from the country by order of President Theodore Roosevelt… [Link]
When [Gen. Dyer, who executed the Jallianwalla Bagh massacre] was felicitated — not censured — in the British House of Lords, even Mahatma Gandhi, that apostle of tolerance, was moved to suggest that “co-operation in any shape or form with this satanic government is sinful”. [Link]
A geographical criterion was used to exclude Asian Indians, because their racial or ethnic status was unclear… The 1917 immigration act denied entry to people from a ‘barred zone’ that included South Asia… [Link]… sustained political attacks against Asian Indians… culminated in the imposition of the 1917 Barred Zone Act. Asian Indians joined other Asian country nationals… who were excluded from immigrating to the United States… [Link]
The final injustice to Asian Indians was exacted by the U.S. Supreme Court in the case of Bhagat Singh Thind (1923), which considered to which race Asian Indians belonged… The Court decided that although Asian Indians were Caucasian, they were not “white” and therefore could not be U.S. citizens. Harassment of the Asian Indian population continued, forcing many to return to India. By 1940 half of the Asian Indian population had left the country, leaving only 2,405. [Link]
… in its 1923 decision against Thind, the Court invoked the criterion of assimilability to separate the desirable immigrants from the undesirable ones: Asian Indians were distinguished from the swarthy European immigrants, who were deemed ‘readily amalgamated’… with the immigrants ‘already here’… [Link]
Beginning in 1901, California prohibited white people from marrying non-whites… The Cable Act … specified “that any woman citizen who marries an alien ineligible to citizenship shall cease to be a citizen of the U.S.” [Link]
… and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
… protectionist and racist groups, epitomized by the Asian Exclusion League, campaigned against the “Hindu invasion” or “turban tide” that was perceived as an economic threat to native farmers. Laws were passed in California to strip land ownership from Asian Indians… [Link]… a denaturalization process in California has stripped many Indians of land they legally owned… Many Indians, married to Mexican women, transfer their land to their children. [Link]
He has kept among us… Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures… Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us…
Thousands of American troops are stationed in India during World War II. There is resentment against American troops in India because of America’s… policy which supports British colonial rule. [Link]
He has… endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions…
… nativist rioters burnt out the Asian Indian settlements in Bellingham and Everett, Washington in 1907. [Link]On the night of September 4, 1907, a mob of between 400 and 500 white men attacked Bellingham’s Hindu colonies. Many of the Hindus were beaten… the Bellingham riot was mirrored by similar assaults in California during the months that followed in Marysville, Stege, Live Oak, and other communities where the immigrants had settled. [Link]
One of the most violent actions against the new Punjabi immigrants occurred in 1914… the Punjabis… received the brunt of the attacks… [Link]
Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people…
… Indians… were also incensed by the General’s notorious “crawling order.” In the street where a female missionary had been left for dead, Dyer decreed that between 6am and 8pm Indians could only proceed on their bellies and elbows and were to be beaten if they raised a buttock… [Link]
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren… We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred… They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity…
The Gadar [Revolution] Party blamed British influence for America’s negative attitude toward Indian immigration… [Link]These feelings of outrage were transferred to hatred against the British, for they felt they if they controlled their own country, this sort of abuse would not have happened… They had to strike at the British because they were responsible for the way Indians were being treated in America. [Link]
The catalyst in their political awakening was the ill-fated voyage of the S.S. Komagata Maru, a Japanese vessel that was bringing would-be Indian migrants to the Americas…. the Komagata Maru was turned back repeatedly: by the Canadians first, then by the Americans; the ship returned to Calcutta. Some people died on the way; on docking at Calcutta, the passengers were shot at by British troops… [Link]
We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
Gadar… describes what the movement hoped to achieve: the overthrow of British rule and the establishment of India’s independence. [The Gadar Party] was founded in the early decades of this century by expatriate Punjabis… its bases of operations were in San Francisco and the San Joaquin Valley…… the Gadar leaders found kinship, especially in Irish revolutionary brotherhood… it was the Irish who defended and supported the Gadarites in California during the difficult days of the San Francisco conspiracy trial in 1917-18… [Link]
The immigrant Irish laborers… were waging their own struggle against the British at the time of Gadar movement, and the members of the Irish community in California became Gadar’s close allies. The Gadar party, in turn, printed tracts in favor of Irish independence. [Link]
We… do… solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved…
Indian activists and their American supporters are dismayed to discover that President Woodrow Wilson’s call for colonies to have self-determination did not include countries such as India. [Link]
And for the support of this Declaration… we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Sarabha and his fellow Gadar Party members were loyalist Indians who struggled for their motherland in far-off America; in the end, many of them paid the ultimate price: they were executed by the British Raj for ‘sedition’…
In 1913, Kartar Singh Sarabha was sent to study at the University of California, Berkeley… and soon joined the Gadar Party. In 1915, Sarabha and a number of others returned to India… to organise soldiers to mutiny against the British during the First World War… betrayals by others in their ranks led to their capture by the British…
Kartar Singh Sarabha and Vishnu Ganesh Pingle, another Berkeley student, were among the seven hanged at the Lahore Central Jail on November 16, 1915… it inspired Bhagat Singh, who became the most famous symbol of fiery Indian resistance to colonialism. [Link]
The U.S. allied with the Brits against Indian independence even as millions of Indians fought for the Allies in Europe:
With 2.5 million Indian soldiers on the side of the Allies, Indian troops helped the Allies secure ground in Africa and the Middle East, and subsequently played a role on the assault on the Axis in the European and Pacific theatres. By almost any measure - the number of casualties, the number of active soldiers, the number of medals awarded - India’s role in the Second World War was tremendous. [Link]
But then the Gadar Party and Subhash Chandra Bose played footsie with the Germans under the ‘enemy of my enemy’ theory, to evict the British (photos, more photos).
Amid all the fickle and questionable alliances of history, let’s remember what our parallel stories had in common, in terms of civil rights:
As Mahatma Gandhi assumes the leadership of the freedom struggle in India, American groups like Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) start speaking out against British rule in India… the concept of nonviolent resistance was not simply imported into America from India in the 1920s. America has had a ‘distinctive tradition of nonviolence’ dating back to colonial times, and played a significant role in the early nonviolent resistance, Quakers point out… Gandhi was influenced by American thinkers and activists… Gandhi also read Henry David Thoreau’s classic On Civil Disobedience. It left a ‘deep impression’ on him…1923: … black Americans look up to Gandhi in significant numbers. The Chicago Defender, one of the largest and most influential black newspapers in the United States, calls Gandhi the ‘greatest man in the world today…’ [The Defender] asks, in a 1932 editorial, ‘Will a Gandhi Arise?’ and notes that ‘what we need in America is a Gandhi who will fight for the cause of the oppressed in this country…’ [Link]
And democratic institutions:
Gadar support financed the funding of India’s first English-language nationalist newspaper, The Hindustan Times… The title of a later Gadar newspaper, The United States of India… suggests an American model of democracy… [Link]With more than 655 million registered voters in 2004, India has often been called “the world’s largest democracy”. [Link]
We know what happened next: of all the British settlements, the U.S. became the tail that wagged the dog, the colony that roared. Dalip Singh Saund and, much later, Bobby Jindal were elected to Congress. The civil rights movement and the 1965 immigration law opened the door to the modern era of desi Americans.
And so on this Fourth of July, I offer my poor almanack for a union of the colonies:
To this too I pledge allegiance.
Update: The Tories hiss
Wow, the comments are interesting. I thought I penned a historical essay. Turns out I actually wrote a litmus test for ethnic identity.
I told you a story about the original Indian-Americans. These farmers were invited over to build the railroads. Then they were violated in every way: beaten up, stripped of their citizenship, prevented by law from marrying whom they wanted, robbed of the farmland they had bought with their hard-earned money. Against all odds, these poorly-educated farmers persevered in their adopted land. They found a journalist to write about their plight. They found a friendly congressman to win back their citizenship and land. They got FDR to call for an end to ‘statutory discrimination against the Indians.’ They got the immigration quotas lifted. Some raised money and fought for independence for their country of origin.
There’s no better day to tell their story than the Fourth of July because their story is America: fleeing British persecution, coming over for political freedom and economic opportunity, slogging it out until they had assimilated, married here, had children here, become citizens, owned businesses, built homes, made this land their own. It is a story not widely known. There’s no better day to tell their story precisely because to tell it on the Fourth of July honors their Americanness, because to tell it on the 15th of August would mock them as forever foreign.
Theirs is a damn compelling story. I’m talkin’ novels, movies, a miniseries. And in the face of that story, how did some readers react? With outrage. Outrage that I’m telling this story on the day of America’s official tailgate party. A strange belief that despite 299 words about the totems of American independence (the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, ‘America the Beautiful,’ the Betsy Ross flag, a colonial unity symbol used by Benjamin Franklin and Paul Revere, the Empire State Building in red, white and blue, Fourth of July fireworks) and 1,529 words (88% of the post) about the history of the first Indian-Americans, that this post is about America-bashing.
At first this puzzled me. Did they actually read the post? Why didn’t they grasp the essential drama of the story? Why wouldn’t they empathize with all that their predecessors had been through? Did they somehow think you could tell the Indian-American story without mentioning America?
Finally I understood. Many of the angry readers identify far more strongly as American than Indian. Some even say so outright in the comments: ‘But what does that have to do with us?’ They have little emotional connection to their forebears. To them, they’re not their predecessors at all — and their shabby treatment, just an inconvenient wrinkle of history that’s too gauche to press on Independence Day.
How sharper than a serpent’s tooth! Ooooh, the delicious irony. Facts are inconvenient, history’s a bitch. The angry reader is in the U.S. only because of our predecessors’ struggle. The angry reader’s parents could afford to come over only because of their forebears’ fight for independence. The angry reader now so deeply identifies as American that he reflexively scans a post honoring the first Indian-Americans as ‘America-bashing.’
You know what that means, don’t you? It means the pioneers won. It means our antecedents did exactly what they set out to do: reshape this land’s laws and attitudes so Indian-Americans could grow up and feel exactly like those whose parents immigrated here earlier. And what’s the angry reader’s response to their hard-fought victory?
To deny our predecessors’ sacrifice. To disrespect the very people who got him into the U.S. in the first place. On the frickin’ Fourth of July.
It’s the very definition of ingratitude.
manish on July 4, 2005 06:45 AM in History, Holidays · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I am now waiting for the apologists to start commenting on how bad were the Nazis, Japanese .........
What's the "M" for?
Franklin Delano Roosevelt was no enemy of India.
Gross misrepresentation. I hope you meant "The U.S. allied with the Brits who were against Indian independence even as millions of Indians fought for the Allies in Europe". ie the US was not against Indian inpenedence during WW2.
Historians have well established that FDR prodded Churchill to give the countries in the British Empire independence (One link). Churchill (who said "I shall not assist at the dismemberment of the British Empire") became angry whenever FDR mentioned this.
One discussion between Churchill and FDR is detailed in an account by Elliot Roosevelt (FDR's son), which we can read in this blog:
And to quote Harry Hopkins (aide to FDR and his initial representative to Churchill): "India was one area where the minds of Roosevelet and Churchill would never meet".
True, FDR did not bring up India at every chance he got (Was he expected to?). But FDR's positions on Indian independence were clear and unmistakable and mirrored popular US opinion at the time - he was againt British colonialism in India.
The millions of desis who fought in both the wars were all volunteers. It is the largest ever volunteer force ever assembled in living memory.
Netaji (I don't have the link) is said to have remarked that India's independence is such a dear cause that he would collaborate with a mass murderer like Hitler if he must. Veer Savarkar OTOH (who was almost a mentor to Netaji and the Gadarites) asked Indians to join the Allied armies in large numbers - for one to defeat fascism and two to acquire the skills necessary to organise a revolutionary army at the war's end.
It is also said - again I know of no evidence - that Churchill was responsible for ensuring that Gandhi never visited the US. He probably feared that even a few speeches would have inflamed public opinion forcing the Congress to take notice and cause the Administration to pressure the UK on the matter of India.
History isn't pretty at all and the human claim to the pinnacle of creation is a weak one. The US and its people have demonstrated how with even injustice that has been inflicted a society can make amends and put its failings firmly in the past and change perp and victim for good. I am only expressing the wish Dr. King himself did , "I have a dream...."
Driving to Houston, Tx in December 2002, we passsed thru Jackson, Ms on Christmas Day. We breakfasted at an IHOP. Even today I have to remind myself that this is the same city that saw violence of epic proportions - a dharmayuddh - when Ole Miss admitted its first student of color. And here we are a bunch of recent immigrants three decades later breakfasting in the heart of the South as if nothing ever happened. Has change of this magnitude ever happened?
Happy Birthday to all Americans. May this great endeavour continue to thrive and prosper.
The Maldives.
Huh? Surely you don't think the Axis was a force of freedom do you?
Franklin Roosevelt was an odd combination: on the one hand, he was a shrewd politician, on the other hand a bigoted racist. After Jesse Owens destroyed the myth of Aryan "superiority" at the 1936 Berlin Olympic Games, Roosevelt, then involved in an election and concerned about the reaction in the USA's southern states, refused to see Owens at the White House. Owens was later to remark that it was Roosevelt, not Hitler, who snubbed him.
Jesse Owens
I love my country, but....
Funny. This is exactly the kind of post I expected to find here on this particular day. Glad you haven't disappointed me.
*Oh Pipe, down, uber progressives. It's perfectly appropriate and educational and there is nothing wrong with the post, it's quite good even.
I love my country. I don't need to add any 'but.'
Hmmm, that should be 'Oh, pipe down'. Oh, whatever. Ignore what I just wrote like you guys always do :)
this post reminds me of the desi kid who's on the varsity tennis team, a champion debater, the top rank / shoe-in valedictorian, and still gets yelled at by his mom for getting an 'B' instead of an 'A+'.... back in 4th grade.
(ps - MD, I love you!)
hi manish,
I hadn't seen your version of the Pledge of Allegiance before. Very nice. Did you write it?
Nice post Manish! This is the perfect day for a Fair and Balanced appreciation of everything the US has done for us. The good is quite obvious (and omnipresent in the media, parks, fireworks festivals, etc), whereas the bad has been obscured in the depths of history.
This reminds me of those horses you see in India that are outfitted with blinders that limit their sight to a myopic view of the world.
Done and...done. ;-)
Happy 4th of July y'all!
I hope that those of you who *are* as patriotic to the U.S. as Manish is will use your energy to try and reclaim what these symbols and holidays stand for from the rightwing.
Peace.
p.s. i e-love you too, md
This is the perfect day for a Fair and Balanced appreciation of everything the US has done for us.
well, there is a lot of factual content in manish's post. reflecting on failings is often a good way to progress into the future. nevertheless, the "us" is not in this case our own selves or our own generation, it is past generations. do the sins against the fathers and mothers pass on so against the sons and daughters? does what happened to the punjabi "hindus" (mosly sikh and muslim from what i recall) have a salient effect on our lives today? does what happened in 1947 and the decades before in south asia stay relevant to us today?
i guess what i'm saying is that for me, or for most of the american browns on this forum, i think the US has done a lot, it is the land of opportunity. for people who were genetically, and perhaps culturally, related to us who lived in the past the record is mixed to negative. but what does that have to do with us? that answer is a personal one....
Interesting article.
Hey, if it were not for Indians, the lyrics of the Star Spangled banner would've been different.
One of the greatest strengths of the United States America is it's ability to draw in the world's best talent, by dangling a gigantic carrot of freedom and opportunity. It's a virtuous cycle that makes America stronger. At the other end of the world, a small city state called singapore tries to do the same thing. Apparently quite successfully.
It's not just a personal question; it's ultimately a social question as well. Regardless of your political beliefs, you can't really disacknolwedge wealth of the United States without looking at the specific things that happened like the dependence on slave labor to produce wealth for southern White plantation owners they generated by selling to Northern and European industrialists who produced products that they sold to...etc.
The financial capital that we benefit from today is a direct descendent of the labor and capital from the past--which relied on slavery, exploitation, landgrabbing (domestically and internationally), etc. in addiiton to more praiseworthy activities like invention, etc. And of course in addition to the financial capital, there's the intellectual capital, the social capital, etc.
Where I do agree is that this is different from the narrative of racism against desis in the US that Manish is presenting in the post, which I don't really buy as a stand-alone way of understanding our present-day situations. I think it lumps all post 1965 desis together (when there's enormous diversity, including at least a huge division between the professionals who came right afterwards and the taxi drivers and dunkin donuts employees who came later) and then tries to post some sort of monolithic South Asian identity (which is usually ultimately defined by dominant South Asian subcommunities: male; straight; Indian; Hindu; upper caste; wealthy; professional; etc.)
There obviously is a strain of racism in culture and law against desis you can trace back to the Punjabi farm workers in the early part of the century (and beyond, and in other places besides the U.S.) which I can lay some claim to in certain instances. But I don't think I can justify my political positions on the basis that we're all "South Asian"--then or now--because there are other things going on (class, citizenship status, a different racial status, different laws) that put me in a much better position than the people who inherited the social role of those Punjabi farmworkers--Latino farmworkers and other low-wage workers, desi and nondesi.
Manish is a Berkeley graduate with an upper crust salary who thinks this country is "racist" against him. To do this he has to dig back to use events from more than a hundred years ago to slam present day America on the Fourth of July.
What a sad joke. America has its faults, but it's a hell of a lot better place to live than India. It'd be mature to acknowledge that.
And if you disagree, have the courage of your convictions.
Where I do agree is that this is different from the narrative of racism against desis in the US that Manish is presenting in the post, which I don't really buy as a stand-alone way of understanding our present-day situations. I think it lumps all post 1965 desis together (when there's enormous diversity, including at least a huge division between the professionals who came right afterwards and the taxi drivers and dunkin donuts employees who came later) and then tries to post some sort of monolithic South Asian identity (which is usually ultimately defined by dominant South Asian subcommunities: male; straight; Indian; Hindu; upper caste; wealthy; professional; etc.)
yes, that was the most important. any racism or "oppression" that south asians experience today has little specific connection with what south asians in the US experienced pre-1965. it is simply a sympton of more general social diseases, and i see no great value-added in attempting to construct a south-asio-centric narrative....
As far as i know (please correct me if i'm wrong), it's unfair to connect gadar to the axis b/c they were working in the context of wwi, not wwii. Also, in mentioning desi collaboration with the japanese and the nazis, I think (although I can't remember details)--that the british government had promised independence if desi leaders cooperated during wwi, but reneged (similar to how British propaganada about the "rape of belgium" by Germany during WWI might have played a role in holocaust-denial during WWII). So it's a little more complicated than just "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
an interesting sidenote is that when taraknath das--a desi revolutionary in the u.s. in the early 1900s--printed a nationalist rag called Free Hindustan, he ran it off the presses of an irish nationalist publication in New York. It's kind of a cool instance of solidarity.
by the way, can someone here explain the logic by which we are supposed to be outraged by one hundred year old white-on-brown incidents?
Don't tell me this is about nationality. It's about a bizarre racialist fiction which lumps all browns together, such that a slight against one -- no matter how ancient or how minor -- is a grudge worth nursing into the present day. No matter how rich, how educated, how prosperous, how free one is in America...you still want to feel like a victim of America. Ludicrous.
So tell me, then, if this is the standard -- if things from 1907 can be employed in 2005 -- where's the statute of limitations? Is a two-minutes-hate against all South Asians justified because Pakistan supported the guys who rammed a plane into the WTC 4 years back? Oh, but that's different, you say...
PS: I'm thankful that MD, Vinod, and Razib have their hearts in the right place. And Vurdlife -- please get out of my country if you hate it so much. I'll buy the ticket.
hello, godless/wickre, my old friend
you are back with your bile again,
cos uncle sam needs your help,
and silence aint your strong suit anyhoo
ad hominem rants fill the comment box,
brown (mem) sahibs holler for black n white patriotism,
their righteous shriek is loud and clear,
chant the mantra - 'you are with us or against us',
dissent is dead - long live pax americana!
hey gc, I want you to get out of MY country. You owe me reparations too, so pay it before I board you on a leaky wooden boat back to (edited for language).
Liberal pundit,
Your doggerel lacks both consonance and assonance
It reminds me of nothing but flatulence
Your theme is distasteful
Your spelling -- disgraceful
I'd continue, but I'm feeling compassionate... ;)
As for the rest, listen, it's actually really simple. I'll explain it in terms even a short bus rider like yourself can understand.
Do you or do you not think America is the best country to live in?
If you do, great. This is the day to sing its praises from the rooftops, or else quietly appreciate it (as is your wont).
If you don't, then why are you here? If you don't think America is the best place to live, it logically follows that there is some other country you like better than the USA. So why not live there? Why not have the courage to do what your ancestors or parents did, and pull up stakes to move to the place you think is better?
Have the courage of your convictions or STFU.
Bashing America on Independence Day is like bringing up every bad thing your father did on Father's Day. It's ill-timed, distasteful, and frankly ungrateful.
Thank you, Godless Capitalist / Paul Wickre for your melliflous prose. Just the kind of shit you regularly spew ad nauseam on your racist blog, Gene Expression. Your views on hispanics, blacks and transsexauls are too well known to recap (TSR, P Z Myers, Jason Soon et al have exposed you for the worthless scumbag that you are). But, as most SM readers might be unaware of your rogue origins, let me start with the wonderful profile that Transsexual Roadmap did on Paul Wickre :
"Anyway, it is hoped that "Godless" will go back to his typical elitist rants on other topics and stop mocking transwomen who have accomplished more than he can ever expect to. Here's a note to everyone who feels entitled to spout off: if you feel you need to hide under a white hood or a fake name to say or do something, you might want to think long and hard about what you're doing..... Godless" strikes me as the paranoid stalker type, so I wouldn't want this to get unpleasant. I'd hate to have to put my assistants to work on him for more than the hour or so they already have. Let's hope "Godless" remains a footnote in this whole investigation."
melliflous
It's "mellifluous".
transsexauls
The word is "transsexuals".
Jason Soon
Jason Soon blogs at GNXP and cited it favorably as recently as 5/17/05. Exactly what are you talking about?
"Godless" strikes me as the paranoid stalker type...I'd hate to have to put my assistants to work on him for more than the hour
Heh. How is it that the Transsexual Roadmap is doing all the stalking but Godless is the "paranoid stalker"? Seems like projection to me :)
Anyway, you really need to watch out for those details. You know, little things like spelling, punctuation, grammar -- and reality. Even smart people trip up on such things from time to time, so when you're 50 points below the mean you need to watch out. Take care out there, and avoid sharp objects and words with more than 2 syllables. Don't be embarrassed to move your lips when you read. It's worth it if it averts another gruesome spelling accident...
Thanks, and yes.
Identity is personal, but let's be generous with hat tips to those upon on whose shoulders you stand.
You're right, 'Germany' is more accurate than 'Axis.' Fixed.
'Does what happened in 1776 and the decades before in America stay relevant to us today?' Would you cancel the Fourth of July?
Why visit this blog then?
Fact: many desi commonalities exist (food, music, clothes, languages, cinemas, family attitudes, how others treat us, blog posts of interest). It's one of the most baroque cultures in the world due to antiquity and sheer numbers. Fact: many desis feel a camaraderie (did you notice the readership of this blog?) Whether you like it is quite apart from whether it is.
Nor honor your predecessors, apparently.
Cute sound bite though. My knowledge of history doesn't fit onto a 3 x 5 card.
This post is labeled 'history.' You may have heard of it: The branch of knowledge that records and analyzes past events...
'Can someone here explain the logic by which we are supposed to be outraged by sixty-five-year-old Communist massacres? By unfair British taxes on tea? By anything which didn't affect me personally in the last five minutes?'
Yup-- all that and single too ;)
Are you some kind of socialist or what?
"Silly" "me." "I" "must" "be" "dreaming." "None" "of" "this" "ever" "happened." "It's" "all" "a" "figment" "of" "my" "imagination." "We" "all" "sit" "around" "singing" "'Kumbaya'" "to" "each" "other."
Do you actually read this blog, or do you just hit the paste button when someone forwards you something marked 'librul'?
This post is about Indian-American history. It's not about you and your GER. You disrespect the the very people who got you into the U.S. in the first place.
I'll start appending my U.S. citizenship to every post the day you start appending your belief in the scientific method to every piece of writing you produce.
Thanks for reducing our forefathers to a tailgate party, though. U-S-A, w00t! Did I wear the wrong jersey today? Will the Sig Eps dump Gatorade all over my car?
Freakin' knee-jerk loyalist Tory. If this were 1776, you'd be munching marmite right now and spying on Gen. Washington for the Brits ;)
You GO, Manish.
Manish:
I remember seeing a PBS or another educational documentary on the farmers/laborers who came here in the early 1900s once. The cultural integration between the Mexicans and Punjabis was extremely interesting.
Paying homage to our parents and ancestors who busted their behinds to give us a birth right to this nation is good, and highlighting it is a necessity.
But, was the behavior of the powers that ruled the United States in the time frame you have quoted any different to other minorities if not worse? The history of this great nation has been etched in mistakes, pain, suffering, and victories overcoming these.
Even if you didn't mean to, which I don't think you did, your post links up quite a few historical events together that makes the United States seem like an enemy to all Indians that existed then, not the British. Unfortunately, the United States then really didn't even care either way, which is the truth. Desis were insignificant. Much of what you have quoted could be (and has been) individually discussed in their seperate blog enteries all over the place. It just doesn't do any justice in trying to cover the material of your blog entry "A mile wide and inch deep" for a 4th of July post.
All in all, as immigrants to the United States, we haven't had it as bad as others. And for that I am thankful. Also, I am thankful that my parents put in intense hard work to get me where I am today. I am thankful that the seeds of this relatively new immigrant community were planted by a few brave. I am thankful we can discuss such historical events in an open forum. I am thankful that this nation has evolved for the better incrementally. I am thankful that people will keep working and striving forward to ensure EVERY American, not just Desis, will have an opportunity to live in better conditions than folks in the past. I am thankful that people can agree to disagree. I am thankful we have the ability to pursue bigots/haters and expose them for who they are, AND make them pay for it.
We should NOT forget the past sacrifices of those who came before us. However, should we let that leave a bitter taste about the experience of being an American AND of sub-continental decent? Personally, thats how the tone of your blog entry read to me. I am not judging who you are and how much you love/hate this nation, just that individual blog entry. The written medium leaves quite a bit to the readers imagination at times.
To all: Very few of us know each other here, and calling out each other's intentions, patriotism, lack of it, gratitude, ingratitude, all becomes an excerise in futility. All one can judge are the positions you have put forth and nothing else.
I hope everyone had a safe and good 4th of July weekend.
Right on, Manish!
gc said:
"If you don't think America is the best place to live, it logically follows that there is some other country you like better than the USA. So why not live there?"
Well, gc, if you don't like what there is to read on Sepia Mutiny, why not stick to blogs you agree with instead of whining about what the mutineers are saying?
Yes. See Manish's excellent update for the reasons why.
In short, South Asian, Indian, Oriya, Bengali, Punjabi, Brahmin, etc. identities are as much fictions as American, New Yorker, Italian, or Republican. They are simply categories with real-world associations. They have validity to the extent that people adhere to these fictions. You are not stating anything new or relevant by regurgitating the familiar trope that such identifications are "fictions." In reality they are a mix of fiction and fact. Read a book or two on cultural studies before waxing pedantic.
Well said Gujudude. It is apt and proper for South Asians to locate and discover our own history, which is inscribed within this etching. I think this post goes a long way in completing this historical project. Agreed. Although it is getting worse post-911. There is none, this is not a lawsuit genius. To put it plainly, history remains relevant as long as it is relevant.ahahaha! Look who is making the "ludicrous" comments. That was such a dumb comment, let me count the ways:
1. I might be able to accept your offer and bind you to the contract, in which case you'd actually have to pay.
2. Lets be real. Theres no way in hell you would ACTUALLY buy my ticket.
3. And if you did, you'd be even stupider than you appear to be. In this case, being a "godless capitalist", I would take full advantage of you by starting a travel agency whereby people tell you they hate the country and you pay their fares out.
4. I'm a US citizen so I'll stay or go as I please, fuck-you-very-much. Oh this is YOUR country? Well guess what Uncle Sam, it is mine too. "It'd be mature to acknowledge that."
5. The comment contains a classic Horned Man logical fallacy. ("if you hate [the USA] so much").
If you truly have "ad hominem" issues with me, muster the stones and let me know, we can iron it out. "Have the courage of your convictions."
MD, Vinod, and Razib, it behooves you to disassociate yourself from this virtueless ass clown.
Oh no! What happened on this thread? I never, never, never meant to start out anything like this.
*All I meant was something a little more celebratory would have been nice, but as I pointed out there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the post and anyway, it's not my site, so who am I to say? I have no problem with anyone writing for SM or the commenters. I wasn't calling out anyone's patriotism. I'm a long time commenter on this site, and on Manish's site before this thing got started, so sometimes I'm a little too informal and jokey. Really. I guess I feel like I 'know' people and they 'know' me. I never meant to intimate anything negative about Manish. Never. I hope he knows this.
*as for not respecting my forebears, I think that is exactly what I was pointing out. My forebears are not just desi, but all the good men and women of this country who came before me and explored, fought, farmed, wrote, loved, protested, fought, and created this great nation. On July 4th it is nice to remember the good deeds they have done; and there were good deeds as well as bad. You know, people always ask me why I stayed so long with my ex even though he was abusive and it was partly because all I heard all day long was how stupid and horrible I was: I started to believe it. So, sometimes, if you want to make a positive and real change in a person (or situation), you need to point out the good and not just the bad. That's all I was saying.
Many, many apologies, my riotous blog friends!
Oh, and the italics above are me;somehow it looks like my last comment is quoting someone else in the thread, but no, it's all me. Really, what did happen? :(
That should be 'honor my predecessors' not forebears in the apologies comment. And did you notice I mentioned fought twice? I am desi :)
For those of you who are uninterested in engaging the various topics of that come out of the post and would rather make vitriolic (and sort of scary, in a totalitarian culture kind of way) calls for people to leave the U.S.: put your money where your mouth is; I'll take up the offer for a ticket if someone else is paying--you can paypal the money to me or just give me your credit card #--will you cover visa fees also, or no? Are there date restrictions or only particular countries I can go? Can I come back to visit, or is that prohibited?
I think the point that a lot of people have been making is that the framework you use (identity politics) to build a narrative of who's standing on whose shoulders is incomplete at best and renders the moral argument and particularly the political prescriptions at the end lacking (although I support more of them than I would have thought, even if I don't agree with what I think is the underlying basis of where they're coming from).
There are a lot of other, complementary ways to look at who are standing on the shoulders of those punjabi farmers and the others who emigrated to the U.S. and Canada in the early 20th century and the more relevant ones you add, the more it becomes clearer who has more of a claim to that legacy and who has less. If you add in class, a broader race perspective, immigration status, wealth, and a number of other factors, you'd probably reach the conclusion that low wage immigrant workers (and specifically low wage agricultrual workers) have more in common with those dudes than the post 1965 professional crowd and their children (like me).
The non-professional crowd--the taxi drivers, the dunkin donuts employees, the construction workers, etc.--who came after that first wave of doctors, lawyers, engineers, and their children and children to come--have more of a claim to that legacy in terms of the social roles that those punjabi farmworkers played. and from there you can make an argument that the low-wage desi workers who came here in large numbers after 1965 have more political interests in common wtih other low-wage immigrant workers and people of color and working class people than they do with people who are, for lack of a better word, South Asian yuppies.
But if you are a South Asian yuppy and still feel solidarity with those people on grounds of race/ethnicity/language (and there's no shame in this--this is my life)), then, by all means, give some money or time or skills to groups like Andolan, or Families For Freedom. And make sure you put the tip in the waiter's hand at your favorite desi restaurant because the management will probably steal it if you leave it on the table. And tip heavy when you take a cab and ask the driver if he/she (usually he) has heard about the Taxi Workers Alliance. Just make sure you're informed and making an effort ot do it intelligently.
It will do a lot for the people who can, imo, lay stronger claim as descendents of the Punhabi workers and Bhagat Singh Thind than I can or Manish can. Much more so than to "help South Asia progress economically via business deals and technology transfers."
Socioeconomic class, yes. But I credit the first Indian-Americans with the Luce Celler Act granting citizenship to Indian immigrants; fighting for the repeal of the barred zone (no India immigration) act; and fighting for the 1965 act raising immigration quotas. Those directly impact us. Also for pushing for the repeal of alien land exclusion (no right to own land) and anti-miscegenation laws.
Also, it tickles me that fellow Punjabis from UC Berkeley fought for Indian independence :)
Interesting article Manish, u should try writing a novel on it in first person ( u can connect to ur readers emotionally by writing in first person) or as narration ( Alex huxleys " Roots" was an excellent narration of life of his ancestors) or make it a historical yet best selling commercial novel following James Michener ( pultizer prize winner who wrote on almost every state in US, great historian) creating his own characters yet keeping the real story intact..
I think we're talking about two different things. If we're talking about whether all desis owe some sort of debt to the people who came here first and had to deal wtih not just frequent annoying questions, but race riots against them, then yes, we owe them a debt and I agree with you (and would extend it to say that we owe a debt to Latinos, Black people, East Asians, and others who suffered under the legalized racial prejudice and built the Civil Rights movement that created the climate for the 1965 laws (and all the other good things that hapepend around 1965--like the war on poverty and the voting rights act or whatever it's called)).
My point, though, which is somewhat separate, is that we shouldn't move from that sense of obligation to thinking that we are all uniformly the social heirs of those early migrants and shouldn't claim their experiences to justify our own politics more than, say, the United Farm Workers union can and should do so. If anything, we should recognize the debt we owe to those people in the past (desis and nondesis), connect it to the people who occupy the same roles in the present, and then show some solidarity with the people who are dealing with these things in the present.
Otherwise, imo, at best, it's largely a symbolic exercise and, at worst, a misuse of a particular narrative of history to promote whatever ideas we already had before learning about them.
I had assumed this :) So when are you going to start a conspiracy against the interests of some of the dominant imperial powers of our age, the way they did? ;) btw, they were not all people from the current India.
In any case, I wrote my senior essay at school about a Bengali student activist militant South Asian nationalist in the US...and felt compelled to mention him twice now in this thread (see above). So can sort of relate :) He went to Berkeley too (for a short time), btw.
another interesting sidenote was the canadian plan to ship the expat desi community in vancouver down to british honduras (belize, i think).
I love the early 20th century.
All your backroom are belong to us.
I don't get it. So you had a role in this? I mistranslated something? You think Internet forums and multiplayer rpgs are a dominant imperial power?
Just geek humor.
Saurav:
Whatchu got against 'symbolic exercises' (you know, as in showing "...solidarity with....)? J/K, kinda, anyway ;)
Kumar
If you truly have "ad hominem" issues with me...
Struck a nerve, huh?
I notice you didn't answer the question: do you think the US is the best place in the world to live or not? If so, do you have any meditations on *why* that is the case? If not, why are you still here in this "racist" society? Why not go to India where it isn't so "racist"?
Your parents and mine left South Asia because India clearly WASN'T the best place to live. Communal violence, anti-Brahmin quotas, religious strife, economic deprivation, and general backwardness and uncleanliness -- that is what India (and Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka) were all about. That's still the state of most of the subcontinent, but today's there's enough technical development there that you could probably get a job. And seeing as you and Saurav and Manish identify with supposedly oppressed browns so much, why not actually *move* there?
And spare me the excuses. You're a PIO (person of Indian origin) -- so the visa won't even be an issue.
Again, this isn't about people who are fundamentally loyal to this country and are suggesting ways to make it better. It's about people like vurdlife who think George Washington was a "terrorist", or who excavate ancient history on the Fourth of July. Their attentions are constantly, constantly, constantly focused upon every wrong -- real or imagined -- that America, and particularly white America, has ever done at home and abroad.
And because of projection issues, they are focused upon ancient/imagined/minor wrongs done to their race while they relentless accuse OTHERS of being racist. But is it not racist to care MORE about injuries done to your coracialists than, say, to those suffered by any other random human being?
Why live in a country where you feel the need to wear the sackcloth and ashes all day? Is it because, for all your empty economic leftism, you're actually just a materialist who can't stand the thought of living in a semi-capitalist society? Is it because, for all your hatred of the "racist" police, you prize the security that the US police and armed forces have granted you?
After all, you relentlessly attack the economic and military strength that's made America great, and never miss a chance to side with America's enemies (whether they be the misunderstood thugs in da hood or the terrorists in Guantanomo).
So in other words --- are you still in the US because you are a complete, raving, mindless hypocrite who would NEVER actually act upon your hatred of the US? Aren't you giving your tacit endorsement to a "racist, capitalist, militarist" society by paying your taxes obediently? Are you too fat and contented and weak to actually fight the power, 60's style?
Lets be real. Theres no way in hell you would ACTUALLY buy my ticket.
Hmmm, are you tempted? Well, I'm absolutely serious. If you promise to leave America for good, it'd be money well spent. You can set an example -- be the Marcus Garvey of anti-American South Asian leftists. (I'd even throw in some change to buy you a spell checker.) That goes for you too, Saurav. I swear to god, you promise to leave this country forever, and I'll buy that ticket through Vinod. One way of course....
Your parents and mine left South Asia because India clearly WASN'T the best place to live. Communal violence, anti-Brahmin quotas, religious strife, economic deprivation, and general backwardness and uncleanliness
How long has India had quotas ? I thought the quotas were introduced in the late 80's.
Also is it fair to characterize the quotas as Anti Brahmin ? I would imagine that the quotas affect the other non lower caste Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs the same way it affects the Brahmins.
Who would think to excavate "ancient history" on the Fourth of July? Could it be because the holiday itself refers to a deed that took place in 1776? Could it be because this is the day dedicated to recounting all of America's glorious achievements in the past 2+ centuries?
You're right gc, it's an odd thing to think about history on this day ...
I suspect "gc" has Tamil Brahmin ancestory. While quotas in the north were imposed in the late 80's (the Mandal commission), in Tamil Nadu the DMK(?) party came to power on the 'lower' caste platform, around 1950's if I recall. While I don't think there were any deaths, the general treatment of Brahmins (of all the higher castes) and hindu texts was quite shocking. The key leaders of DMK were atheist and of lower caste and went out of their way in their "necessary correction of history" (to hijack Naipaul's term), I heard incidents of priests (Brahmins) dragged along streets by their chotis (not sure of the Tamil name), public stripping, mass buring of vedas, ramayan etc. leading to mass migration of Brahmins to other states, singapore, malaysia, middle-east etc. Quotas were part of this sorry state of affairs, I don't think many non-Tamils are aware of this sorry history (I wasn't until I read about this is M.J.Akbar's excellent 'The Seige within').
Manish,
Great job!!!
GujuDude,
I dont think there was much of difference between attitude of US v/s Britain towards India.
Most European Americans in early 20th cetury derive their ancestry from Britain, it would be unreasonable to think they will be rooting against their ancestral homeland. In the end ethnic identity is probably the biggest cohesive factor for societies.
Actually I think by the beginning of the 20th century more white Americans were of German rather than British ancestry. Whatever the case, the Revolution, War of 1812 and border tensions until the turn of the century left a pronounced anti-British sentiment in the American psyche. Given the trade protectionist nature of empire, as matter of self interest as well as idealism (on the part of a few) there was little support for the British Empire in the US.
Could it be because this is the day dedicated to recounting all of America's glorious achievements in the past 2+ centuries?
Right -- and it's juvenile to greet the occasion with a tendentious & ungrateful list of grievances cribbed from an ethnic studies curriculum. Irish Americans don't greet the Fourth by raising their fists in solidarity with the Draft Rioters.
Look, the point is pretty simple. Using the Fourth to bash the US is like haranguing your Father on Father's Day. It's straight from Eve Ensler's playbook - it's like using Valentine's Day not for romance, but as an occasion to bash all men as being potential rapists and perpetrators of "violence against women".
It's poisonous, petty, and pathetic to dig up minor grievances from a century ago. The bottom line is that there was a hell of a lot of injustice to go around in the 20th century, and America was the decisive factor in *ending* the worst of it.
I think it'd be good to read Bill Whittle...
The representation of America that I see not just in this post, but in this blog is exactly this sort of lie. Every tiny black grain that can be found is picked and put on display (along with plenty that aren't so black), and with the exception of the occasional post from Vinod there is nary an acknowledgement that the South Asians who live in the US are the richest, healthiest, and most free in the world -- and that much gratitude is owed to the free market, the strong military, and the tolerant people of the United States of America.
gc, I'm not going to play this game of "more American than thou" with you. I'll leave it at this: your ideas and attitudes are profoundly anti-democratic, regardless of what society you're from--particularly that you actually believe in exile on the basis of political opinions. I can only thank God you're not in a position to force me or manish or vurdlife or anyone else who doesn't meet your tests of loyalty to drink the hemlock.
particularly that you actually believe in exile on the basis of political opinions
Hey, I'm talking about something voluntary. If it were forced it'd be exile. You know, like the Africans did to the Indians in Uganda -- that's exile.
Ah well. I guess your confusion on this matter was predictable. What else to expect from someone who can't comprehend the distinction between forced taxation and voluntary charity?
Gratitude is rare among spoiled privileged american desis. It is not a surprise that one of them chose independence day to drag america's reputation through the mud.
Its funny that you would question Saurav's comprehension abilities when
Hah! Nice try scrounging for sympathy, but you have already outed yourself to the sepia community for the troll that you are. Let me dumb this down so you understand. Me like America. Me like browns. Me want to make America better for browns.a) his comments are better articulated, more intelligent, less bile-driven, and more fact-based than your harangues
b) you yourself apparently cannot comprehend that neither Manish's post nor my comment involved a competition of which country is better to live in. You answered "America is great, but has had problems" with "Oh yeah well India sucks." Total straw man argument, not to mention completely irrelevant. Plus, it is yet another logical fallacy, you must have majored in them in college. In case you still haven't figured it out, whether or not India sucks has nothing to do with this entire post.
Wow! How embarassing for you to have made this mistake in the very same comment in which you diss my spelling. I guess Microsoft Word didn't have an entry for Guantanamo eh sport?
The page you link to in making this comment shows that I asked if GW was a terrorist. The point of that comment was to ask at what point does "revolutionary" turn into "terrorist"? Nowhere did I affirmatively say GW was a terrorist. (But I will ask it again....was he a terrorist?) This betrays your facile "you're either with us or against us" thinking. Gee, I suppose us raging libero-anarchists have no other choice but violent revolution eh? Thanks for clearing that up! Wheres that little red book when you need it... Horned man. See above.Then bounce.
Geez...I ask myself, vurdlife, why do you bother battling with someone who is so obviously your intellectual inferior? But then I look back at your comments from late 2004 or so...I will not let people like you (think: combination of low intelligence and high volume) bully the sepia community into submission. I WILL rip you a new one every single time you make another brainless comment on this site. Believe that.
Well, paying people off with whom you disagree to leave on the condition that they go forever encapsulates the spirit of exile to me. But more to the point, I think you actually would legally exile people who don't agree with you if you could (just on the basis of your tone and your comments.) Maybe you're a different person in real life...I hope so, anyway.
By the way, maybe your superior comprehension could let me in on how you got to my views on the distinctions between taxation and charity from the material I provided you with?
Kumar, nothing really--just that the post ends with a set of points that Manish is advocating. In any case, I gave some pretty specific examples of things people who are well off and sympathetic can do to "show solidarity" with working class desis and others:
I'm not really sure what more I could do except to beg people to read the entirety of my long-winded comments before making snarky responses :)
*Guffaw* Right on, brutha! Let's burn the history books. They might make us look bad.
Finally I understood. Many of the angry readers identify far more strongly as American than Indian. Some even say so outright in the comments: But what does that have to do with us? They have little emotional connection to their forebears. To them, theyre not their predecessors at all and their shabby treatment, just an inconvenient wrinkle of history thats too gauche to press on Independence Day.
I'm coming kind of late to this and I don't have much to say on the somewhat inscrutable fight in the comment thread.
I like the post. It's appropriate to this blog. I kinda would like a more dynamic version for aesthtetic reasons. I pretty much agree with Manish's update. But I don't think identifying primarily as American necessarily means one has the kind of ingratitude he describes. Perhaps that's obvious to all, I just want to clarify.
I'd just had a few tidbits to add. There are so many connections that kinda slip away, or are less obvious. . .The Boston Tea Party was protesting extreme British measures to keep the East India company alive--it was Darjeeling tea the "Indians" dumped in the harbor, and it might have been a crushing blow to a whole different set of colonists if it had gotten much further. The Indian cotton the British extorted helped immunize them and the rest of Europe from dependancy on Southern cotton, neutralizing a Cotton Diplomacy that might have turned the tied of the war another way. There's a reputed Parsi prince who fought in the Union Navy. There's the Senate Gavel, which is a gift from the government of India. We can't forget Gandhi's influence on Martin Luther King Jr. I wish I had my copy of Daniel Ellsberg's Secrets on me, but there's some great stuff in there--both about his proposing to his wife while diving into the Ganga while on vacation from being a Vietnam Cold Warrior, and, more relevantly, about his being dragged to Vietnam-era peace lectures by a sari-clad Indian peace activist until he suddenly had to collapse on the bathroom floor, weeping with the epiphany that the best way he could serve his country would be to reveal the truth of Vietnam, ultimately leading to the leaking of the Pentagon papers.
We shouldn't forget our East Asian brothers and sisters either. . .I came across a real estate title the other day specifically excluding people of Chinese or Japanese descent from living in the house except as servants. The establishment just forgot about us in the first pass of the exclusion acts. . .but plenty of these battles were fought by them as well.
And for those of you who think we're Sepia Mutineers are all about hating on the Whites, nonsense, I say. Three cheers for the Quakers and the Sephardic Jews, and Roger Williams, all of whom laid down the foundations for the religious freedom that is particularly protective of heathens like me. :-)
Fascinating links, SSR. One of my favorites: the university the current U.S. president attended was built on East India Company money from Chennai.
This point is interesting but dubious, given how widespread slave ownership was in colonial America:
GujuDude says:
Saheli says:
You just can't please 'em ;)
Hey Manish, you only need to look down to the Farm to read about dubious labor practices involving Asians. But what else do you expect from the Robber Baron founders of a junior college? ;-)
Go bears. :-)
Paying homage to the first Indian-Americans.
The right to immigrate, become a citizen, own property, marry and not be beaten up 41 years ago.
That's actually a major purpose of this blog.
Richest minority:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/000831.html (Abhi)
Bobby Jindal elected:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/000635.html (Manish)
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001668.html (Abhi)
Spelling bee success:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001669.html (Abhi)
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001671.html (Abhi)
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/000795.html (Anna)
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001677.html (Manish)
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001110.html (Apul)
Geography bee success:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001654.html (Abhi)
Fareed Zakaria on TV:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001269.html (Manish)
We are the people of the United States of America.
Is there anything you write which isn't trivially disproven?
That doesnt mean they had ANY sympathy whatsoever to the cause of freedom of India.
You kids with your fancy English. Not all mutineers are Harvard educated you know.
That is true but as another indi