Arrghh, that pic just had me shrieking in terror, at work. Memories, memories I had locked up in a forgotten corner all these years. They're back dammit!

Ack! Those squat toilets give me nightmares! When I was a kid, I had a deathly fear that I would fall into that hole and get stuck ...

Now I have a permanent issue with all toilets, thanks to our Indian variety.

Ack! Those squat toilets give me nightmares! When I was a kid, I had a deathly fear that I would fall into that hole and get stuck ...

No shit (pun intended). It took me sometime to get over my fear induced by the movie "Aliens" and approach one of these again. I swear I thought an Alien was going to jump out and eat me alive. That and those giant flying roaches creeping out of the hole, slowly probing the air with their whiskers and scampering around the bathroom gave me nightmares.

Ok now that first link to WIkipedia was entirely unjustified..... [shudder]

To be politically correct, the proper term is an IWC, or Indian Water Closet.

..Go figure.

I'm not sure I accept that cite on Gandhiji, Ennis, since that writer clearly has plenty of axes to grind and his very first paragraph engages in the kind of hair splitting that exemplifies "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." (I mean, seriously, folks. "He Ram," is full equivalent to "Oh God" from Gandhi's pov, and he was the one doing the exclaiming. . .and dying.)

That wiki link was pretty atrocious, and I wish I hadn't clicked on it (or rather that it didn't have pictures--is there anyone reading wiki who doesn't know what that looks like?) but it makes a good point. Some of the oldest known toilets are in India. There's a damn good reason we're culturally obsessed with waste and waste disposal. It's really freakin' important. Our own flush and forget about it infrastructure and resulting culture may very well come to haunt us. In Rwanda they've had to turn it into electricity. I don't quite get the exact legal logic of the Panchayat rule, but it's certainly an issue that needs to be dealt with.

Try going backpacking for a month in the wilderness, at, say, 14000 feet, and you'll stop complaining about those practical squat toilets. The sad thing about them is they're no good for people with bad knees, and and as people get older, they increasingly tend to have bad knees. Now that's a real problem.

There's a damn good reason we're culturally obsessed with waste and waste disposal

yea, but i never understood why we eat and wash the rectum with our hands

granted youre not supposed to use the same hand for both!

With all this talk of toilets I thought I'd mention that there is a little piece in Harpers this month excerpting Sa'dia Rehman's exhibit at the Queens museum of art that ran until june 6th entitled "Lotah stories" article about it here

we eat and wash the rectum with our hands

Speak for yourself. I am a clean freak.

I blame Vestern influences.

That piece on Gandhi "The Gandhi Nobody Knows" by
Richard Grenier clearly has a lot of misconceptions in it regarding Hinduism and Indian culture. Sample;

" In addition to its literally thousands of castes and sub-castes, Hinduism has countless sects, with discordant rites and beliefs. It has no clear ecclesiastical organization and no universal body of doctrine. What I have described above is your standard, no-frills Hindu, of which in many ways Gandhi was an excellent example. With the reader's permission I will skip over the Upanishads, Vedanta, Yoga, the Puranas, Tantra, Bhakti, the 'Bhagavad-Gita' (which contains theistic elements), Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and the terrible Kali or Durga, to concentrate on those central beliefs that most motivated Gandhi's behavior as a public figure."

Notice above how he states that the Bhagavad-Gita "contains theistic elements", as if it's a suprise to find any Hindu literature containing such. And Kali and Durga are "terrible".

Anyway, the whole piece was written for a magazine published monthly by the American
Jewish Committee.

Enough said.

The entire thing is one big piece of Indophobia.
I'm surprised Ennis qouted from it. It's nauseating reading, even if some of the things he says about Gandhi are true.

The funny thing is he keeps referring to the fact that Hindu culture has many components that the western psyche would find disgusting and repulsive. Like Judaism is a "wester religion" and there's not anything from the middle east (Israel) that the western psyche would not find repulsive? Get real Richard.

I'm also surprised to see that you all are so phobic regarding traditional Indian squat toilets. I'm not even Indian and I prefer them over sit down toilets for various reasons (which I won't elaborate on here).

Grenier aside, I had read that quote about Gandhi's morning greeting in other contexts as well. I just found Grenier b/c I was googling to find some reference for it, rather than Grenier being the source of my knowledge.

Here are other references (some glancing) to Gandhi's high level of attention and concern with the subject of bowel movements: 1, 2, 3, 4.

Saheli: sorry about the link, I did label it NSFW though :(

Rehman article: href=http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story8_2_03.html

From Ennis' link no:1 :

Gandhi later forswore sexual relations but went on into his old age with what he called his "brahmacharya experiments", during which naked young man would be asked to lie with all night so that he could prove that he had mastered his physical urges.

Uh, huh.

Gandhi changed the way mass struggle is done (other examples being – civil right movement in US, South Africa, Myanmar today). He stood up for things which nobody (or few people) who had ever stood up for. The man spent half of his life in jail, fasting to death, being canned, and almost lynched to death by a mob in South Africa, Sure, he was a human being, a politician and his evolution was complex. He was breaking away from the norm, being a trail blazer – the journey was complex and at times controversial. His obsession with cleanliness, and toilet (an Indian one if maintained is far cleaner than “modern” western ones – just think it through, please) was a product of Hindu self-cleansing and achieving salvation. What do you expect? Aren’t we all product of our times? He was known for his obstinacy and eccentricities – any who is far ahead of time will become one.

Richard Grenier piece is sophomoric at best and with hidden agenda at worst. It is almost like a “smart-ass” sophomore term paper being passed as definitive commentary on India and Gandhi with little or no knowledge of history and culture on Indian subcontinent. Is this the piece Raph Reed plagiarized from in early 1980s for a student newspaper? I rest my case. Even if you want to criticize Gandhi, at least use somebody like Arthur Koestler.

His lasting legacy is India is (very) slowly maturing as democracy with multi-ethnicity and inspired people like Mandela. It did not become Algeria.

Correction: I meant multi-religion instead of multi-ethnicity. My mistake.

Kush

Ennis, I was just giving you a hard time about the Wiki link, I assumed you posted it precisely to be atrocious and unnecessary. :-) It's pretty funny that someone felt the need to illustrate it though.

yea, but i never understood why we eat and wash the rectum with our hands

Who eats their rectum?! I don't, what is this nonsense?! If Gandhi heard you he'd make you wash your mouth (and rectum) out with soap!

Try going backpacking for a month in the wilderness, at, say, 14000 feet, and you'll stop complaining about those practical squat toilets.

You don't have to go that far, most semi-wilderness parks in U.S have pit toilets, and they are atroceous too - always gives me creeps..

Gandhi had many strange issues, he was an odd man... He was fascinated with the "bowels," not just shitting, it was something about the process, a literally internalized sense of spirituality that was defined by the symbolism, balance, etc. of "cleansing" (or, having a bowel movement).

The biography by Louis Fischer is probably the best factual recounting of his life that can be found (every account of Gandhi is either derisive or hagiography, this is the only one that comes close to objective).

Anyhow... White Trash, squat toilets are great except when you look down into that friendly abyss and see things moving around (and, hey, Ennis posted this tongue-and-cheek, or so it seems, and thus, to call him out on his sources... )

Saheli - I did ;)

The man spent half of his life in jail, fasting to death, being canned

This getting canned... is it particularly painful?

(Oh, and Fark.com discussion on this.)

Village council candidates in India should be allowed to stand for election only if they have a toilet at home, the rural development minister says. He said too many elected members “do not have toilet facilities in their own houses and defecate in the open”. Mr Singh said this activity was the main cause of the high incidence of diarrhoea in rural areas.

Does anyone have enough context to know if there's a hidden agenda here? Intentional or no, it sounds pretty fishy to discount about 490 million people from running for office for public health reasons.

Gandhi had many strange issues, he was an odd man... He was fascinated with the "bowels," not just shitting, it was something about the process, a literally internalized sense of spirituality that was defined by the symbolism, balance, etc. of "cleansing" (or, having a bowel movement).

Indeed. My prof in college pointed out how odd his reaction was to his father's death as Gandhi describes it in the autobiography--specifically, the way he linked it morally with the fact that he was hooking up with his wife and was therefore not there. I wonder if he was clinically OCD or something.

Hi,

"canned" was a typo. I meant beaten up (caned). He was cruelly beaten up many many times. Again, his guilt over his father's death and sneaking out while he was tending to him (just before he died) is being taken out of context. You have to also remember that his father crying rather than punishing him when he confessed of theft and eating beef as a young kid would have a profound effect on him and his philosophy.

Again, do not expect him to be someone well-packaged, cool, and pc guy like Bob Geldof or Bono.

Kush

thanks for the pic of the toilet, I had to use the john here at work but now after seeing that, I've lost the urge....those things were scary man, you never knew what else was in there. Plus, though many debates over effective toilets usually swing in favor of the pit style, there's something freaky about literally having your tatti out in the open air, beneath you, and knowing that one second of loss of balance might have you wearing it. Not to mention the aroma that arises on a hot, muggy, 125 degree day in New Delhi either, that will change your mind real fast.

Another thing that always worried me in India was that the bathroom is all on one level, there's no tub or dry area...so what exactly does all that water on teh floor contain if it's swishing around the drain, the toilet and other things? I say this bcuz unfortunately, my friend once was walked in on my nana ji in india and saw him peeing at a 45' angle AWAY from the toilet....since then I've been freaked out by water on the bathroom floor ::shudder::

In Gandhi's autobiography he does have a fascination/huge interest in hygiene and conquering the primal urges. Many times his thoughts were not directly about those things, but about how they related to his stated life goal of Ahimsa and achieving moksha via control of all his senses. Thus, he may or may not have been OCD, but been diligently practicing to separate himself from the 'bondage' of his senses (as the Gita says, the senses are what lead to ppl's downfall and continuation in the reincarnation cycles, thus never achieving union w/ God)

and knowing that one second of loss of balance might have you wearing it.

it's no picnic, trying to use a squat-toilet in a sari and heels...

DD - that was either a horrifying image or a deepy kinky one, depending on your predilections.

OK, India 101.

I can explain the obsession with bowel movements.

Ayurveda holds that most diseases arise from poor digestion. One symptom of poor digestion is irregular bowel movements - either constipation or diarrhea. Amongst village people and elders in India even today, you will find a stated concern over bowel movements, diet and the like. It's all linked together to Ayurveda and good health which is linked to a regulated or regimented lifestyle. Many people seek control over their health (and thus life) through control of their bowel movements. It's really not that big of a deal, and I wouldn't say that most Indians are "obsessed" with it, and maybe neither was Gandhi.

Accompanying any good squat toilet in India should be a big bucket which enables you to flush down whatever was dropped therein. There is no reason why a squat toilet has to be dirty, unless there is not enough water available to flush it.

The reason why most bathrooms in India are not as clean as the ones in the west is because most Indians do not clean their own bathrooms. Most Indians have domestic helpers and even they will not clean the bathrooms (there is a specific caste that does that). So the family hiring them has to wait until that person comes around to do the cleaning. Why won't most Indians (in villages and small towns) clean their own bathrooms? It's considered "dirty" work. I'm not saying this is right. I'm just stating the facts here. Also, in the west, our bathrooms are kind of like our own personal spas, where we retreat to for warm bubble baths surrounded by candles and aromatherapy, after a long hard day at work. This is not the case in India. Toilets and bathrooms are for evacuating and cleaning oneself and getting out of as quickly as possible. The "home-spa mentality" has yet to hit it big on the sub-continent.

Why would Gandhi feel guilty for having sex with his wife while his father un-knowingly died? Even today you find a big guilt complex over sex in India amongst many people, what to speak of way back in Gandhi's time. The concept of brahmacharya (even within marriage) is still held high and in awe there, so what to speak of with Gandhi, who made that concept one of his ideals?
The sexually liberated attitudes you see in Bollywood films are not exactly representative of the "real India". Even now I hear young women there are taught to be be "shy" with their husbands and not show that you "want it". Why?
Lajja bhushanam stri. Shyness is the beauty of a woman.

If you really want to get to know the real India, I suggest you go and stay in a small town or village for a minimum of one year. The Indians in such locales are drastically different in their mentality than the Indians who grew up in America, and even drastically different from the Indians who grew up in Bombay.

Why would Gandhi feel guilty for having sex with his wife while his father un-knowingly died?

bcuz his father was very ill and unable to care for himself in any manner, and Gandhi stated in his autobiography that he was infatuated w/ sex and would frequently wait for it nightly, even if his wife was sleeping, he'd wake her up to get it on. So while his father was ill, he was awaiting his chance to get laid, and when he did, and his father died, he felt guilty bcuz his mind was elsewhere instead of his father. It's understandable, I would be torn up w/ guilt myself if that's what I did. Plus, Gandhi loved his father very much, almost idolized him, so he felt that he let him down in his greatest time of need.

Accompanying any good squat toilet in India should be a big bucket which enables you to flush down whatever was dropped therein

true, but you have to be careful w/ your technique to not splash yourself. Trust me. It's scarring.

Toilets and bathrooms are for evacuating and cleaning oneself and getting out of as quickly as possible

this is very true.

it's no picnic, trying to use a squat-toilet in a sari and heels...

this is something i've ALWAYS wondered about...I have a hell of a time getting out of my kurta/pajama properly to take care of business (the knot, or "nada", is always too tight for me and I can't undo it easily!), and i've always wondered how a woman handles business w/ 3-4 yards of cloth wrapped around her, and not get dirty, wet or anything else!!!

I am grateful for good balance ;)

If you require a general visual, Lovin, it's kind of like an umbrella, blown inside out, the way you invert the whole get-up... and dear god make sure you have the pallu between your teeth or secured at the waist, lest it fall loose...

i've always wondered how a woman handles business w/ 3-4 yards of cloth wrapped around her, and not get dirty, wet or anything else!!!

Well, they're smarter than us. Or so I'm told.

OCDs can be immensely crippling things, sufferers are often unable to function normally as their rituals can take so long. It's a two-pronged condition. It can be purely obsessional (I can't stop thinking about dirt) or purely compulsive (I must step on every manhole I see) or both. Commenting with a minimal of data, as I often do, I would say that Gandhi more likely had something like one of the personality disorders, as he clearly functioned perfectly normally.

Very high-achieving people often have traits of certain personality disorders, I guess you could say it's what makes them different. He may have fit into Cluster C - anxious and fearful disorders. Perhaps he had avoidant or obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not the same as OCD).

Saurav's point about this ruling having a hidden agenda is one I thought about too. But it would be nice if it was just an attempt to clean up politics.

I wondered about the agenda as well. There was a part of the draft post that discussed this, but I deleted it in favor of short and pithy. After all, I didn't know how much sh*t you would put up with :)

DD - how do you hold it all up? Especially the backside? Doesn't that take 2 hands and a lot of luck?

White Trash, you made a good point -- about the health benefits of the squat toilet. It actually is healthier to use, because doing the Valsalva (holding all your breath and contracting your abdominal muscles to take a big poo) in the squat position focuses the energy toward the rectum. It reduces the risk of hernias, which are when the pressure in the abdominal cavity can cause outpouching of bowel through weaknesses in the abdominal wall. (My parents just had a squat toilet installed at their house in *very* rural southern Illinois! I'm sure the contractors were confused.)
But yes, I agree that with a sari and high heels in a filthy smelly little closet it is VERY hard to balance.

Ennis, it's all in the balance. and the petticoat helps keep it all together. Wide-Load Aunties with bad knees? I have no idea how that takes place :|

and dear god make sure you have the pallu between your teeth or secured at the waist, lest it fall loose...

what if you're a dadi ma and you don't have teeth!? or like my nani ji, you're so overweight that there's no room at the stomack to tuck anything in? The risks of this give me nightmares

now while we're on the topic of squat toilet nightmares, I for one refuse to use my hands to cleanse myself and insist on TP...so therefore I have clogged many of these things. I woudn't even know how to use my own hand anyways. How do your families react to the blocked plumbing? My family has come to terms w/ my ABCD behavior and accepts it ,but i have friends who say they have no choice. Now I never shake hands w/ them

I wonder why I was unable to post a while ago.
Did any administrator/moderator take offense at my last post? I can't imagine why.

Wow. I didn't realize how much you guys (and girls) are removed from Indian culture.

1. Traditionally the toilet is used only for evacuating feces. Traditionally one is to remove all of their clothing to do so and traditionally, one is to take a complete bath after having done so.

2. The "bathroom" or place where one baths, is used for urinating (hence the urine smells in alot of Indian bathrooms).

3. The reason why a distinction is made between the place where one urinates and devacates is because devacation is very dirty, "contaminating", whereas urinating is not nearly considered as much so.

If one were to defecate fully clothed, and not take a bath and put on fresh clothing afterwards, they would be considered "apavitra", or impure. No one would want them to sit on their furniture.

Again, one year in a village or town.

Anyway, I hope y'all don't think I've got a superiority complex or something, I don't. But I do feel I know more about Indian culture than you guys simply because I spend extended periods in the sub-continent, living with and like the locals, adopting virtually all of their customs especially in regards to basics like evacuating, bathing, cooking, eating, etc.

I can whip up dahl baat on a moments notice, samosas, kachoris, even rasagullas. And I make a mean kesar lassi.

Yet I still feel this weird "otherness" around ABCD's. And I think it's because I'm "too Indian" for them - even though I'm white!

So often I find ABCDs saying things like, "we are a mix of all that is best in East and West", yet the only thing "eastern" about them is the fact that their parents' marriages may have been arranged. Quite frankly I find myself understanding and relating better to your grandparents.

But alas! I still find myself attracted to tall, dark and handsome hotties like Manish.

What is a girl to do?

And one more thing. NO. I'm not a quasi-spiritual-new-age-hippie who hangs out in Hrisikesh smoking pot. But I do wonder what ABCDs have against such people.

Anyway, it's all good yaar.

Thanks, White Trash. Your check is in the mail ;)

White Trash, I'm immensely impressed by your knowledge of many things Indian. But I detected a bit of a condescending tone with

Wow. I didn't realize how much you guys (and girls) are removed from Indian culture.

I was born and grew up in India. We didn't have a squat toilet - although I have no problem using one. My point is that just because A LOT of the population has a hole in the ground, that doesn't make it INDIAN CULTURE. Millions of Western-style toilets are in India, like phones or televisions or anything else that was better than its predecessor. They're not un-Indian. Indian culture is village life. Indian culture is city life. The hotshot IT whizzkid who lives in a penthouse in Bangalore is as Indian as be-lungeed uncle who walks to the outhouse with his lota.

We're a multi-faceted country.

The main thing I would like A/B/CBCDs to know about is South Asian history. Toileting is really not that important.

(For the record, I have nothing against pot-smoking hippies. In fact I positively like them.)

Maybe it would have been more accurate if White Trash had said "Wow. I didn't realize how much you guys (and girls) are removed from RURAL Indian culture." or even "Wow. I didn't realize how much you guys (and girls) are removed from RURAL middle and lower income Indian culture."

BongBreaker - WhiteTrash does have one point, the people she(?) describes are still the majority of Indians.

WhiteTrash does have one point, the people she(?) describes are still the majority of Indians

Of course, I don't deny it. The majority of India is Hindu as well, are Buddhists removed from Indian culture? Nah, India moves with the times like everyone else. Some traditions should be clung to, others should be flushed. Sorry, I won't buy any argument that a squat toilet is superior to a sit-down one, this isn't homespun vs. Liverpool textiles! Imagine you are the aforementioned wide-load aunty with bad knees. I know which I'd choose.

Bong,

Regarding, "My point is that just because A LOT of the population has a hole in the ground, that doesn't make it INDIAN CULTURE. Millions of Western-style toilets are in India, like phones or televisions or anything else that was better than its predecessor. They're not un-Indian."

I know. That's why I posted, "Well, I think that's probably because alot of Indians in the cities and suburbs there do live alot like westerners. They have AC, foriegn cars, go to nightclubs, etc. It's not like Indians are not doing those things".... in reply to...

"and the projection of 'western lifestyle' has been a part of Indian movie mythology for at least 40 years. And it's always been somewhat troubling to me -- a sign of a lingering colonial mentality.".... on another thread.

I wonder exactly what is this 'western lifestyle' portrayed in Bollywood films that Amardeep comments on in the language, race and Bollywood films thread.

Anyway, back to the issue of toilets and all - even in the metros of India you will still see alot of these toilets. I prefer them because, have you ever sat on a "western" flush toilet in India that actually flushes? I haven't.
Therefore I much prefer the throw-the-bucket-down-squat kind.

And even in households where there are those sit-down flush toilets, you will observe that most people still follow the rule of taking off their clothes to defacate and bathing afterwards. This is considered standard hygeine in India.

Here in the west I've kind of combined the two practices of 1. western use of toilet paper, with 2. eastern use of water. Won't go into details, but it is very hygenic. If anyone is interested they can write me.

South Asian history is important, but culture is no less so, and I think alot can be gleaned about a culture by the way it evacuates (I'm serious).

Also, if you really want to get into the mind and heart of a culture, language, literature and the arts are important. You can understand alot about the Indian ethos by reading Indian epics - religious and historical, as well as Indian poetry, especially village lore and wedding songs.

Manish - you don't have to pay me for speaking the truth, Sweetheart. At the same time I don't want to inflate your ahankar. Besides, my experience with you tall, dark and handsome desi men is that you are only interested in IT women or doctors.

White Trash, you know quite about Indian culture, however, it's pretty clear that you have a fairly low opinion of it and that you're out to pick a fight. My guess is that's why you were momentarily blocked from posting.

The tone of your comments is a dime-a-dozen, there's always someone coming in here with a bit of bitterness that clouds their argument. It's not that interesting, so, if you want to have a real discussion, drop the attitude or find a mirror.

Hi,

White Trash has not shown any "bad attitude" and seems quite insightful. You might not agree with her. She might be off (or not) the mark on some points - but let her speak and listen without being condesending to her.

Kush

Please read this

http://www.outsidethetent.com/wp/archives/category/lying-repulicans/page/2/

or just google = ralph reed + gandhi

The moment I read the post yesterday, I knew it. I knew it. I was quite busy today so did not follow up on it. The post you use here to build your argument was the "lightening rod" for evangelicals to warn about "strange hindoos" in early 80s. How can you be so gullible?

Knowlingly or unknowingly.....you want to buy into extreme literature (the same holds for some of the dalit panther literature links have been used) to just build an argument, be my guest. I started reading "sepia mutiny" for last month and have enjoyed it for most part. I would encourage you (I say Please) to use more established pieces that have been vetted and peer-reviewed with time.

Want to bash Gandhi...quote Tariq Ali, Arthur Koestler, Churchill but no one with a darker agenda.

Kush

Churchill didn't have a dark agenda?

let her speak and listen without being condesending to her.

But I do feel I know more about Indian culture than you guys

because that wasn't condescending?

And even in households where there are those sit-down flush toilets, you will observe that most people still follow the rule of taking off their clothes to defacate and bathing afterwards. This is considered standard hygeine in India.

What kind of nonsense is this ? I have visited numerous Indian homes in India with sit downs and have never seen anyone shower just because they dropped a load.

Manish - you don't have to pay me for speaking the truth, Sweetheart. At the same time I don't want to inflate your ahankar. Besides, my experience with you tall, dark and handsome desi men is that you are only interested in IT women or doctors.

Is this woman serious ?

But I do feel I know more about Indian culture than you guys

Wow. I didn't realize how much you guys (and girls) are removed from Indian culture.

why? bcuz you took a long vacation in a village? So what? You might know more about rural indian life, but as usual, someone sees one part of india and paintbrushes the whole thing. For the record, half of these comments we all have been making have been in jest, yes we know why the bathroom is a certain way there, why it smells and what many of the beliefs are. We don't need someone telling us.

Have you ever been in Kashmir, both pre/post insurgency? I have. Have you been in the deserts of Rajasthan? Have you been to the big urban centers? I have, and each is entirely different. Until you've seen all corners of india please don't come on here bashing the A/B/C BCDs. That's like saying I live in Chicago so I know the culture in Alaska as well. So many 'travelers' seem to think that if you rough it in the village you know what it's like to be indian. Right. My aunts (or bhua's just to make sure I'm not 'removed' from my culture') live on farms in villages. I'll tell you right now that half of what you claim goes on does not in that region. So please spare us your book reading and village living until you've seen it all.

What kind of nonsense is this ? I have visited numerous Indian homes in India with sit downs and have never seen anyone shower just because they dropped a load.

Al, this is true in South India, that I know. I know many south indians here who practice this method. But it is not universal.

Yet I still feel this weird "otherness" around ABCD's. And I think it's because I'm "too Indian" for them - even though I'm white!

no maybe bcuz you claim to be too indian, which will always turn any desi off. Be comfortable within yourself of what you've seen, if your interactions are like your posts, I can see why they feel that way.

I can whip up dahl baat on a moments notice, samosas, kachoris, even rasagullas. And I make a mean kesar lassi.

wow how indian. i must be full blooded american bcuz I can cook a hot dog too.

Al, this is true in South India, that I know. I know many south indians here who practice this method. But it is not universal.

my bad, this is true in PARTS of south india and different villages throughout the country. However, i stand by my initial comments that this is not a uniform practice.

I wonder exactly what is this 'western lifestyle' portrayed in Bollywood films that Amardeep comments on in the language, race and Bollywood films thread

let's see:

1. flying to college in a helicopter
2. every movie involves rich families w/ huge houses
3. half the lines are spoken in english
4. more focus on sex/kissing
5. tons of movies filmed outside india (KKKG, Kal Ho na ho etc)

6. the increasing Hollywood knockoffs
7. the infatuation w/ guys who have to have a certain look, physique and dress. Same w/ the women

these are just a few of my thoughts as to what it means that Bollywood is westernizing. I'd like to hear if other agree/disagree, however, I also don't want to hijack/derail this thread from the focus on squat toilets.

also, on a related note, squat toilets are used in many other asian nations as well, so how do their views of cleanliness/effectiveness play into this?

White Trash, I for one am pleased you've taken such an interest in India, but just realise that a year in a village doesn't teach you about India as a whole nor does it tell you what 'being Indian' is. It's a very complex phenomenon, and I don't know I've ever heard a satisfactory definition.

What may have pissed some people off here, and me too, is that we've heard many a person sermonise about India. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. When Gandhi returned from South Africa, he travelled around huge amounts of India to try and find out what being Indian was about. After all that, he still came to a conclusion that I disagree with and so did many at the time. It's somewhat similar to how you view the country and it's an attitude I've heard many times before.

My Dad's English and growing up in New Delhi, many of our friends were English expats. They romanticised India endlessly and firmly believe that India is Mother Nature's beguiling, spiritual, hedonistic utopia. However many young Indians and NRIs think that India is a bustling, cosmopolitan world economy and an up-and-coming force to be reckoned with.

Both Indias exist - please understand we will take offence if a non-Indian tells us being Indian means. Mark Tully is the most Indian white person I have ever met, but he's still got some zany views.

Besides, my experience with you tall, dark and handsome desi men is that you are only interested in IT women or doctors.

Way to marginalize. Didn't they teach you about generalizations, on your field trip?

Sorry, that second link should've been zany views.

Incidentally, does anyone know a Desi man (tall, dark, handsome or not) who is interested in 'IT women'?

Way to marginalize. Didn't they teach you about generalizations, on your field trip?

I admire white trash's interest and experience in India but I think the same rule applies here as it does to other cultures: there are certain jokes and views on the inside which are valid, but from an outsider, are out of context. She may have been facetious but saying the above comment about guys only liking IT and Docs, but from where she stands, this is the equivalent of using the term "nigger" to a black person. They can use it bcuz they have a true, inner cultural connection. We cannot bcuz we don't have that experience, so I use similar logic to white trash's jokes here.

please be aware that being Indian is more than just knowing Hindi, etc, knowing geography or 'understanding our grandparent's' values, thinking etc. You have to live it and make choices within it to know what it's like, and you have to live a lifestyle in which you live in a culture denominated by old world beliefs, yet you have to act out upon those in a different country, culture and system in which your elders don't understand. And then you have to live in the culture in which you try to build a bridge between the old world and new world w/o compromising who you are. It's easier for you, you live in a westernized nation, so your 1 yr in india isn't the same life experience as 29+ living here and belonging there.

White Trash, I respect your comments and I'm glad your experience in India was so broadening to you. I think the reason why your posts might be rubbing people the wrong way is because we resent the implication that as NRIs, we have become spoiled, stupid and removed from our "culture." (I frankly don't care how you choose to take a poo on a squat-toilet. Just please wash your hands. Thoroughly.) However, you have to understand that to us, white people like you seem a bit spoiled to us. After all, when we choose to visit India, we are going because our families, our flesh and blood, are there. We would visit them wherever they were and however much it cost to get there, and whatever sacrifices we have to make to get there. I don't go to "discover myself" or "experience the world for myself," although that does inevitably happen with any great travel experience. I am going because I had very real bonds with the people who live in those villages. So I respect your experiences and the knowledge of the rural culture that you were privileged and fortunate enough to partake in for one year, but please save your judgement.

(On a different note, rural "culture" in India is hardly to be emulated. Poo-taking technique aside, many of the beliefs are oppressive and destructive, particularly to women.)

And oh yeah! Find me a tall, dark handsome hottie who wants a tall, dark professional woman and I'll eat my hat.

Bonb Breaker said:

Both Indias exist - please understand we will take offence if a non-Indian tells us being Indian means.

However, you have to understand that to us, white people like you seem a bit spoiled to us.

Moreover, I don't think we want to take offense, especially as (mostly) diasporic desis here. A white woman with the unlikely name of Marty Chen has spent decades in South Asia. I think she even grew up there, because her parents lived there at the time. Whenever she wants to tell me something about South Asia, I listen.

Rupa's right though, that essentialist comments about the "True India", especially from somebody who doesn't live there, really do rub NRI/ABCDs the wrong way. Heck, they rub me the wrong way comming from Indians.

More broadly, essentializing is very dangerous. It's one thing to talk descriptive statistics, it's another thing to say that you've found the heart of the matter, especially based on a limited sample. I too have never heard of the practice of showering immediately after you shit, and I've heard a fair amount about life in very small town East Punjab.

Let the ragging on desi men continue, unabated!

I don't think we want to assume that White Trash is non-Indian. This is the internet, after all.

Maybe we don't want to keep up with the comments either ;)

And I think it's because I'm "too Indian" for them - even though I'm white!

actually, Ennis, she said so very clearly:

And I think it's because I'm "too Indian" for them - even though I'm white!

I don't think we want to assume that White Trash is non-Indian. This is the internet, after all.

Well, she said she's not Indian boss.

I gave the example of Mark Tully in a similar vein to your Martha Chen example. Both non-Indians who are immeasurably more knowledgeable about India than I am. I don't know much about Chen, but Tully has been the BBC's voice of India for 30 years and, as the second link shows, Indians are not always in agreement with what he thinks.

You're right as usual. D'oh! Sleep deprivation takes its toll ...

Changed my name to Dignitary as having people refer to me as White Trash does not befit a dignified lady like myself. Hee hee hee.

Anyway, just to address a few points;

1. I wonder how it is that my posts here have been construed as "critism" of Indian culture when a. I sought to point out how the article by Richard was incorrect and offensive and b. I sought to explain the reasons behind the appearant obsession with bowel movements and the like he attributes to Gandhi and Indians.

Funny, somehow I thought I was being supportive of Indian culture. Foolish me.

2. The one year stint in India was not meant to refer to myself. I've lived most of my adult life in India. I was suggesting that maybe if someone wants to really get to know India, that staying less than one year in one place would not really do the place justice.

3. I know there are many different ways to go to the bathroom/toilet in India. I was just sharing with you all the rationale behind the way most people that I have lived with do their business there. If the facilites are well equipped with water then I personally find squat toilets and bathing after shitting to be the most hygenic.

4. The comment about Punjabis not doing the above, yes, I have heard from other Indians (in India) that they do not. No more comments on that as I do not want to start a thing between Punjabi and non-Punjabi Indians (in India).

5. I've not been to Kashmir yet. However I have been to several regions in India for short periods of time. My longest stint was in the central Northwest, as my place of permanant residence is there. I therefore am speaking about the customs of the people in this region of India, as well as the customs of the people I have lived with in other regions for a short period of time. There are similarities.

6. Why do I feel that if I was an Indian all of you would be, like, ok with my posts? Somehow I get the vibe that it is not appreciated here for a non-Indian to make comments on India. India is the country of my residence, and although not the country of my birth, I feel I have a right to speak about it and I feel my opinions are well informed. Not only well informed, they are based on experience. Does that bother some of you that a non-Indian may have more experience with Indian culture (in many of it's wide varieties) than you?
Are some of you satisified to write me off as some sort of "tourist" in the sub-continent? I am not a tourist. I live and work there most of the time except for short periods when I return to America to re-connect with family.

7. To be honest, I am very hurt that, although my posts were meant to shed a (positive) light on some Indian customs, they were taken in the opposite spirit and therefore I find myself "banned" from posting yet again. I just don't understand it. Especially when in a personal exchange with one of the administrators here he was so mis-informed about one aspect of Indian culture that he said the Kama Sutra was a manual for sexual slavery. I'm sorry, but this is the very thing that makes me feel that I do know more about Indian culture than maybe some of you, or at least one. Is that a bad thing? Can I not know more about the psyche and ethos of Indian culture just because I was not born there? On the other hand I am not an expert. Yet my knowledge of Indian culture is not academic. It is based on experience and deep love.

The above post got posted twice I think due to the new comment that popped up after posting it that in order to avoid offensive statements a tech thingy has been enabled that would require one to wait a few moments and post again.

I wonder if that new message and tech thingy was enabled because of me? If it was, again I feel hurt (I'm an emotional woman and tend to take things personally). Where in any of my posts have a used obscene or offensive language and what possibly could anyone take a serious offense from anything I wrote anywhere?

Anyway, to continue on my theme from above...

The thing about ABCD men only wanted IT women or doctors was more or less a joke, albeit, based on experiences that many women I know have had. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm assuming that most young ABCDs parents are not entirely uninvolved in whom they choose for a life-partner. I have seen ABCDs date all kinds of people, but mostly I have seen them settle down with a partner from the same language region their parents have hailed from in India, and someone who is from a similar economic and career background. Now proove me wrong. Of course this could be said about almost anyone in the world, right? Birds of a feather flock together. However, on this particular site, Indians are the topic and most of the contributers here are Indians - ABCDs and Canadians I assume. NO OFFENSE WAS MEANT! It was more or less a joke based on experience. However, aren't there some websites online devoted to broken hearted non-Indians who fell in love with an ABCD only to find that they would not marry them primarily due to the above factor (family objection?) I think it is not uncommon.

But gee, I guess I can't talk about that because I'm not an ABCD.

It seems some of you are on the defensive. Like I automatically have to be either 2. someone with a hippy-dippy attitude towards a romanticised India that's full of cool pot-smoking sadhus and Kama Sutra style tantrik sex OR b. some uptight holier-than-though whitie who abhors anything "ethnic". Please don't stereotype me and thereby stereotype the country of my chosen residence in the same vein. I am neither of the above. I am just a normal girl who's destiny somehow landed her in another part of the world - which she happens to actually love in it's entirety - the good, the bad, the ugly and the beautiful.

Can I not share that with you all in order to give you another insight into the country of your origin or your parents origin? What's wrong with that?

Anyway, whoever it is that will not allow me to post from my other computer... if you see me fit after this long and heartfelt explanation, then please life the ban.

Dil Se,
Dignitary

But I do feel I know more about Indian culture than you guys simply because I spend extended periods in the sub-continent, living with and like the locals, adopting virtually all of their customs especially in regards to basics like evacuating, bathing, cooking, eating, etc.

Dignitary, I wasn't trying to butter you up by saying that I respect your experiences and appreciate your comments. I really do. You do have a very unique perspective and I love reading others comments because...well, I like to hear other peoples' perspectives! I admit that I probably know very little about each and every single one of the 1,000+ cultures on the subcontinent, but I appreciate their differences, and by extension, the different experiences people would havel. Please share your experiences and your insight. I for one really like hearing about it, I'm sure your experiences were extremely interesting and you have very insightful comments about them.

But no matter what race you are, please don't add judgmental or condescending or grossly overgeneralized tones to your posts, such as "I can not believe how removed you all are from your culture" or snarky titles like "India 101." Please appreciate that "Indian culture" means something different to each one of us, with a few underlying commonalities. Respect those differences.

Dignitary, I only speak for myself. I said above there are white people who know far more about India than me. Whilst that's not 'being Indian', I would be foolish to say I can comment on being British if you can't comment on being Indian, as neither of us were born in those respective countries. However nobody's really objected to you commenting and most have praised your knowledge.

What bugs me - just a little - is the kind of point-scoring like this:

Does that bother some of you that a non-Indian may have more experience with Indian culture...than you?

I think you want to hear the answer yes. You're clearly very proud of your Indian knowledge, and that's great, but repeatedly trying to highlight that you're 'more Indian' than an Indian is a bit silly. That's all.

... I find myself "banned" from posting yet again.

Not true, obviously.

I wonder if that new message and tech thingy was enabled because of me?

No, it prevents comment spam.

Can I not share that with you all in order to give you another insight into the country of your origin or your parents origin?

But I do feel I know more about Indian culture than you guys

Wow. I didn't realize how much you guys (and girls) are removed from Indian culture.

And I think it's because I'm "too Indian" for them - even though I'm white!

OK, India 101.

Honestly, I found your posts to be generally interesting. Some of it I knew, some of it was fresh information.

HOWEVER. Where you lost me-- and perhaps others-- is the above-referenced sarcasm and condescension. It's not that 'you can't do it because you're white' or anything like that, and the function about repeat posting has been on for a few weeks not, so not an insult or attack or response to you. (perhaps you have some concerns over being accepted in this space and maybe come out on the defensive?) But please don't come into someone else's house and condescend to them and act like a know-it-all, or turn this into a competition where you're #1 most Indian person. I think regardless of race, culture or country of residence, we all know that's not the way to make nice.

you're #1 most Indian person

With a sentence like that, your Indian credentials have been proven!

Dignitary:

If you're banned from posting from another computer, we can't know how or why unless you tell us what the IP address of that computer was, or what handle you used to post under before.

Bongsy,
I'd be #.5 Most Indian person. ;)

"HOWEVER. Where you lost me-- and perhaps others-- is the above-referenced sarcasm and condescension".

Well, Desi, sarcasm is a form of humor which sometimes employs a false condescension. I admit, I tend toward sarcasm, that has always been my nature. But no harm is meant by it.

"She may have been facetious but saying the above comment about guys only liking IT and Docs, but from where she stands, this is the equivalent of using the term "nigger" to a black person.

No, Lovin, there is no connection betweeen the two. And besides, it's ok to use the word "nigga" nowadays, I have been told. Appearantly there is some difference between the word "nigga" and "nigger" symbolically, but I haven't yet understood that. Culture and cultural mores in America sure have changed since I was a kid here (which wasn't so long ago by the way). When I first heard the term "nigga" used in music I was totally shocked. When I was a kid growing up, that word was considered disgustingly offensive, but now it's like, OK. Somehow though, it still doesn't sit right with me and I am relunctant to use it. Does that make me "un-hip" or something?

Well, Desi, sarcasm is a form of humor which sometimes employs a false condescension. I admit, I tend toward sarcasm, that has always been my nature. But no harm is meant by it.

and this would be a true condescension? In the future if I don't understand any of the big words or topics in your comments, I'll either get a dictionary or ask you to use smaller words, mmm-kay?

And besides, it's ok to use the word "nigga" nowadays, I have been told.

at your own risk, I guess. I haven't heard about anybody getting the green light on that one.

Dignitary,

I agree that the "Desi guys only date IT/doctors" might have been in jest, with some degree of personal experience behind it, but this nigga/nigger is SO NOT Ok. No. It is not OK to use either one. I understand that nigga has become a reclamation word, but I still think it's an ugly word and while I am less offended when a black uses that word, I still find it offensive in general. The word "nigger" is offensive, at all times. Blacks use the word "nigga" to describe themselves or other blacks, with negative (Chris Rock) or positive (Tupac) connotations. But it is their own community identification, one of their reclamations; why would you feel the need to use it? Do you identify with that culture?

It's sort of the same as when we mock desi accents. It is insulting and offensive, yet acceptable within our culture if done by someone within the culture. Why? I believe it's because for someone from outside the culture (say, for example, a white American) were to do it, it might be perceived as threatening, whereas it's safe were one of us to do it.

No, Lovin, there is no connection betweeen the two. And besides, it's ok to use the word "nigga" nowadays, I have been told

i REALLY wouldn't try pulling this off in the hood. And yes there is a connection, but if you an't see it, i'm not going to argue this point.

Somehow though, it still doesn't sit right with me and I am relunctant to use it. Does that make me "un-hip" or something?

well at least there's one race you won't offend today.

I have seen ABCDs date all kinds of people, but mostly I have seen them settle down with a partner from the same language region their parents have hailed from in India, and someone who is from a similar economic and career background. Now proove me wrong.

nothing to prove wrong here, it happens. One thing I don't understand is how many white folks take offense to something like this...as if since we live in America that we are closed minded for preferring our culture, our way of life, and our language. That we should by default marry anyone and everyone. As I said before in a previous post, it's something else to GROW UP in a country, a culture, where your parents aren't well versed in it and you have to figure it out for yourself. Where when you go back to India to visit, you're an American, and in America, you're Indian. You're not the same thing in teh same place. So you date everyone learning about different ways of life and at the end you choose to go w/ the way you know inherently, the desi way, the way where you can still cling to your cultural identity yet mesh w/ another culture seamlessly...what's so wrong w/ that? On this I speak from heavy experience.

Why do I feel that if I was an Indian all of you would be, like, ok with my posts?

on the jokes, yes, on the insights, no. I find you to be refreshingly open and aware about India and I respect that. I do. But I don't like how you feel that just cuz you live there NOW that you know what it's like to be Indian. You don't know what it's like to grow up in India and feel the culture clash, the values clash, etc as many ABCDs have had to. You live there now as a grown woman it's a whole different story. Trust me there's a huge difference, if you had grown up in India, then culturally, experientially, some of your comments would make sense.

if someone wants to really get to know India, that staying less than one year in one place would not really do the place justice.

there's a difference between knowing India and knowing what it's like to be Indian, particularly an ABCD for reasons mentioned above. Also, you fail to realize that ABCD's technically speaking have their own culture unique in relation to their parents and grandparents.

Especially when in a personal exchange with one of the administrators here he was so mis-informed about one aspect of Indian culture that he said the Kama Sutra was a manual for sexual slavery. I'm sorry, but this is the very thing that makes me feel that I do know more about Indian culture than maybe some of you, or at least one.

look if you want to correct our misperceptions, please do. Just leave out the 'india 101', 'I'm more indian than you' comments. You sound like a wannabe.

Are some of you satisified to write me off as some sort of "tourist" in the sub-continent? I am not a tourist.

so how does it feel to be marginalized? I hope you eventually get the point that all your knowledge is great, but your view of your knowledge and your comments to us about how you are more Indian hurt like the tourist comments as well.

Why do I feel that if I was an Indian all of you would be, like, ok with my posts?

You live in India and obviously didn't cultivate your derisive attitude toward ABCDs via this post alone, you undoubtedly learned this in-country along with your appreciation for squat-toilets. I'm pointing this out because if you hadn't said you are "white," I would have taken you for an Indian-born Indian who arbitrarily dislikes all foreign-born Indians...

That said, for as much as you know what you know about India, one thing that escapes you and all other people who "talk" about "confused desis" is the fact that we actually know quite a bit about India, we are connected to it in such a way that we can never emigrate from it and we always consider people who whip us with coarse knowledge of toilets and other things "Indian" to be full of shit.

(We're all obnoxious know-it-alls here, some of us can trace our history to the realization of zero, thus, there's no sense in trying to pick a fight with us, we'll win. So, why don't you just tone it down, join the club and keep things interesting?)

I ran away from this thread after opening the Wiki link, but now I wish I'd stayed..these raging arguments are verrry interrresting ;)

also, on a related note, squat toilets are used in many other asian nations as well, so how do their views of cleanliness/effectiveness play into this?

Lovin, to speak for the Sri Lankans (as best as I can) we do the squat, rinse with left hand, flush down with bucket thing too. I've never heard of taking all your clothes off and washing your entire body afterwards(!!) Of course, you use soap and water liberally and never ever eat anything with your left hand.

It used to be "Westernized" people who had flush toilets, now it's accepted that anyone with any means to afford basic plumbing gets one. Even in Sri Lanka, your poop is supposed to indicate your health, so taking a peek and worrying about it isn't uncommon...but what is all this rot about "tradition"?? I think I have some rural great uncles who refused to switch to flush toilets cause they were used to squatting...but that's like old people anywhere who dislike changing their habits.

I'm rather enjoying discussing desi bathroom habits because so much of it is considered weird and shameful in the west. (Sa'dia Rehman did an installation about this at the Queens Museum a few months ago)..but people in Sri Lanka now have other things to worry about besides bathroom "traditions."

White Trash/Digintary, your comments in general have been interesting and I'm glad you post on this site, but your comments on this thread really have been extremely annoying. You wonder

I'm not a quasi-spiritual-new-age-hippie who hangs out in Hrisikesh smoking pot. But I do wonder what ABCDs have against such people.

you ask:

I do know more about Indian culture than maybe some of you, or at least one. Is that a bad thing? Can I not know more about the psyche and ethos of Indian culture just because I was not born there?

Can I not share that with you all in order to give you another insight into the country of your origin or your parents origin? What's wrong with that?

And just THAT, in a nutshell, those very questions, are why "we" are disinclined to discuss anything with non-desis who like to talk about the psyches and ethos and hearts and minds, of the entire bloody subcontinent. You return home, to the West, to "reconnect with family"...for us, family is here, family is there. There is no "re" connection. It's always connected.

I see that people have tried to explain why your statements were condescending and insufferable..at first gently, and then with increasing exasperation...but you still don't seem to get it. We're glad you like India, we admire your devotion to the language, culture and customs. Authenticity (at least for me) is a foolish word, so please don't think we're excluding you because you are not-desi...But it's exactly what you just did - sort of gloat about your knowledge of some basic things that we learn so instinctively it's really not worth discussing - that is, frankly, a huge turn-off.

Desidancer, is the indian sari 3-4 yards? My mom always buys 5-6!! No wonder I have, like, 10" of thick pleats in front of me!!

For the sake of clarity, let me fix some bad html-

you ask:

I do know more about Indian culture than maybe some of you, or at least one. Is that a bad thing? Can I not know more about the psyche and ethos of Indian culture just because I was not born there?

Can I not share that with you all in order to give you another insight into the country of your origin or your parents origin? What's wrong with that?

And just THAT, in a nutshell, those very questions, are why "we" are disinclined to discuss anything with non-desis who like to talk about the psyches and ethos and hearts and minds, of the entire bloody subcontinent. You return home, to the West, to "reconnect with family"...for us, family is here, family is there. There is no "re" connection. It's always connected.

amitfraa, I don't know how I missed it, but I see you mentioned Sa'dia Rehman too! I linked to a NYTimes article, but it's great to see more people take notice of her.

To bring some sanity to this hair-splitting of measuring ones 'Indianness' (as if it could be measured by the level in a lab beaker), I hereby present to you the ultimate Indianness test ('N'-nasal):

oooh..neele gagan ke taley
subah ke paanch bajey
haath meiN lota, lote meiN paani
khethoN ki oor chaley...

Those who 'get' the above lines, are true Indians, I hereby declare :p (sorry ppl, Ingleesh translation won't help).

btw, I can't help but be bemused, as to how people are passing verdicts that the squat toilets (WC) is used only in 'Southern' India, or 'rural' India or 'just' villages.

Circa 2005, propah Bombay: Most houses (yes, those highrise 20 storey aptment complexes in Bandra/Juhu included), have the Indian types. If the aptmnt has two toitets, then it's higly likely that it will have one of each type. And houses which have just one, well, almost 90% of them are squatties. Not to mention the chawl-system and old houses, which are 100% squat. From my travels across Maharashtra, and all four S.Indian states, the same holds true. (I am wondering, aren't there any IBIDs, hanging around in the comments section?)

Also, someone mentioned(too lazy to scroll up and look), everyone using these squat ones, remove all clothes, take a bath ..etc.etc. No sirjee. Sorry. It might be true, during ones early morning ablutions, when the trip to the loo is coupled with a shower..but definitely not during the rest of the day (except ..except maybe in v.few pure shuddh Brahmin households, of which I claim no expertise). Infact, in India, very rarely you'll get the toilets and showerroom(which is called bathrooms in India) combined together in one room. Usually they both are separate. And in Bombay, in 99% of houses, it's separate.

Cicatrix#76 in her first 3 paras, sort of fits my experiences as well.
Personally, I find the western seats..errhmm..quite literally, PITA(pun intended). The squat is simple, easy to use, easy to clean, doesn't hurt and all that. Can any of you tell me, are there (m)any desi homes here who install the squatties in US/UK?
There was a great discussion on slashdot sometime back about the pros-cons of all diff. toilet styles. Can't get hold of that link. It discussed some harmful effects of the western style..hernia, splisters and more.

cicatrix: just like the toilets, there is no standard in lengths for the saaris. Try the nau(9)-vaaris (the 'whole nine yards' phrase comes frm here, methinks). And, if you wear em properly, you don't have to have a 10" thick pleat.

Cicatrix- as I understand 9m saris are more predominant in Bengali culture, but the 5-6m is standard for the course.

Suhail- I have seen a hybrid squattie in US. It looks just like a good ole western throne, but it has 2 little side blocks for auntie's feet, like the old school squatters have. I assume one climbs up and perches. So it's the best of both worlds perhaps. Or somewhere for the ABCDs to rest their newspapers...

Can I not know more about the psyche and ethos of Indian culture just because I was not born there?

Essentializizing "Indian" culture like this is bad form. Try:

"I've gained a sense of contemporary culture in India through living in Bombay, UP, Rajasthan, and Mysore that perhaps some of you are missing from not being here full time over a lengthy period."

"By traveling through the breadth of South Asia, I've learned to see commonalities and differences in different places; it really is quite miraculous how diverse this place is"

"I enjoy being in India as someone who has transplanted."

Anyway, it's probably needless to say at this point, but I generally enjoy your comments and also sympathize with you in that it will be harder for you to post here than people who can claim the skin color but not the experience. But don't let that make you feel like you have license to--dare I say--orientalize ;)

DD and Suhali, I should have said that as a Sri Lankan, I wondered whether Indians wrapped saris of different legnths. (as I see they do.) I was kidding about the 10" of pleats..but I do get too many because 6 yard is a lot when you don't have an ass. My mom wears a standard Indian-type sari (to us Sri Lankans.. I dunno what the hell the Indians would call it), but there is a Sri Lankan form which is really different.

This description will be atrocious, but I can't find a picture...The traditional Kandyan sari wraps sort of like the Indian, but the pallu is pleated really crisply and it's not wide. It doesn't drape over the arm. A ruffle is also tied around the waist, to hang lightly over the sari. It's even harder to walk in because the pleats in front allow for less movement.

sorry for the off-topic digression. Back to poopin'.

DesiDancer:
hehehe :) That sounds quite funny and interesting. Perching on top of a throne & all that..would you be able to get a pic frm somewhere? I think there is a big business opportunity lying there.

Cicatrix: Actually methinks yr description (Chandrika Kumaratunga's style?) fits the way many Indians wear the sari too. Then again, India is a country of 1-billion plus people. So clearly, there is no ISI mark there.Chk this. I got frm wikipedia :)

Sawry ennis, no more saari comments.

cicatrix:
'Suhali' sounds like a girl, which I am not :)

Suhail, sorry, typo!! I didn't presume to think you were a girl;) thanks for the link. Nivi looks like what my family wears, but the Kandyan sari is not there.

oops, sorry Cicatrix-- I think the way of wrapping is as varied as the color/texture of the saris themselves. Which is kind of cool, to think about how many different ways we can make one panel of fabric look...

This picture is kind of small and crappy, but I think the woman in front is wearing a Kandyan sari.

Yeah! It is!

Though a rather dowdy one, I must say. that hatte, (in Sinhalese.. I think it's choli in Hindi?) is like a pirate blouse..

When Gandhi returned from South Africa, he travelled around huge amounts of India to try and find out what being Indian was about. After all that, he still came to a conclusion that I disagree with and so did many at the time.

What conclusion did Gandhi come to?