Ugh, this is so depressing, I want to vomit.

Maybe the cartoonist is merely saying Osama is a $#!+head... ;)

*vomits*

I'm sure people like this nice Japanese soldier were upset at those terrible propaganda posters about them...

Vikram, it doesn't say your enemy is a Japanese soldier it says your enemy is THE JAP.

Is this your enemy?

Vikram

You missed the point by about a hundred miles

Is this your enemy?

The WWII poster depicted a Japanese soldier.

You missed the point by about a hundred miles

Perhaps you need to see how cartoonists in the Arab media express themselves

Perhaps you need to see how cartoonists in the Arab media express themselves

Sure, because two wrongs always make a right.

Vikram, the very first propaganda poster says:
"Don't talk, rats (image of a Japanese person) have big ears"
I doubt they meant that the Japanese government could hear across the Pacific, they meant Japanese-American civilians in the USA. Sure, the image depicts a rat in a uniform, but the point they're making is that all Japanese are the enemy.

The Cooksey quote and the Sodhi killing, both despicable acts, were from Sept 2001. Cooksey apologized days after, and Roque, the shooter, was sentenced to death.

The toilet paper cartoon is from August 2005.

Isolated incidents in a country of 295 million comparable to the number of hate crimes/talk against other ethnic / religious groups. Both punished in a just manner. Cooksey will be painted as a virulent racist despite having this on his resume

Cooksey made five mission trips to the remote Maua Methodist Hospital in Kenya, where he performed eye surgery. After his first trip in 1986, he returned home and raised enough money through private donations to build a modern eye clinic at the Maua Hospital to be used by local and visiting ophthalmologists.

Woe is us, rapidly descending into a cesspool of internment camps, revocation of freedom religion. Why I hear they're not going to let girls wear their headcoverings in school and that a Muslim filmmaker critical of Christianity was impaled while motoring around town. Did you see the movie, Sum of All Fears or the current season of 24, isn't it ridiculous all the steroetyping of Arabs and Muslims?

They're called caricatures. They're in the editorial pages everyday.

Sure, because two wrongs always make a right.

Never does, but picking a few random tasteless cartoons from the media here is a bit of an unbalanced view, considering that such tastelessness is the norm in the Arab media. Just as much as all tv shows are not of the Jerry Springer caliber.

I doubt they meant that the Japanese government could hear across the Pacific, they meant Japanese-American civilians in the USA. Sure, the image depicts a rat in a uniform, but the point they're making is that all Japanese are the enemy.

Ah I see, the Japanese were very sensitive in their depiction of the West... like this ?

Of course Japanese propaganda art did not neglect to target the enemy. In a manner similar to what American did by depicting the Japanese as subhuman apes, the Japanese countered with their own depiction of Americans (and the British as well) as hairy, demonic mongrels.

Comparison Between Japanese and American
Propaganda during World War II

IfI and Vikram: You're drawing some weird, insecure, backward-looking moral equivalences. The point is to improve the country we live in. Is 'at least we're better than Saudi Arabia and imperial Japan' something to brag about?

They're called caricatures. They're in the editorial pages everyday.

So was Step'n Fetchit. That li'l guy really cracked me up! </sarcasm>

Never does, but picking a few random tasteless cartoons from the media here is a bit of an unbalanced view, considering that such tastelessness is the norm in the Arab media. Just as much as all tv shows are not of the Jerry Springer caliber.

Lets see Manish mentions racist things said by a Louisiana senator.
You retort by saying that the Arabs IN THE MIDDLE EAST do/say worse things.
So you are implying that -
1. There is nothing wrong with being an American racist because Arabs are racist too.
2. Its not racist because Arabs do it too.
3. Whats the big deal because the Arabs do it too.
4. The Arabs do it so when the Americans do it, its only fair/revenge.

Just the fact that when Manish brings up something racist an American has done, you feel incumbent upon yourself to bring what those Arabs do makes you at best an apologist for the racist Americans and in my opinion a House Negro.

We can always improve.

Speaking of those two cases you listed...in what ways can we improve?

Cooksey is not a representative anymore. Our entire society condemned his comments. Every mention of his name in the newspaper will have that quote. President Bush visited a mosque that same day and praising Islam as a great religion and a religion of peace.

The shooter was sentenced to death.

Like I said, justice has been done.

What more would you have done in these cases? Or do you expect the world to be absolutely pristine and nothing ever to go wrong.

You're drawing some weird, insecure, backward-looking moral equivalence

My posting was to point out that the WW II poster was a symptom of those times. Both sides created such propaganda. To post only one side of the story is an unbalanced view of history. You drew the one sided equivalence to it in your original post. If cartoons like the one you posted were a common occurence, then it would be an issue. Unfortunately even such crap has to be tolerated like the KKK under the First Amendment.

So was Step'n Fetchit. That li'l guy really cracked me up!

Once again a caricature from decades ago . I thought you weren't interested in backward looking ?

Just the fact that when Manish brings up something racist an American has done, you feel incumbent upon yourself to bring what those Arabs do makes you at best an apologist for the racist Americans and in my opinion a House Negro.

If you cannot debate the subject without making this a personal attack, then perhaps you shouldn't participate. The moderators I thought were strict about that. None of my comments were personal attacks on any of the posters. Perhaps you should try some civility.

... justice has been done.

This was published yesterday and this, today.

... the WW II poster was a symptom of those times...

Today.

Once again a caricature from decades ago.

Today.

If you cannot debate the subject without making this a personal attack, then perhaps you shouldn't participate. The moderators I thought were strict about that. None of my comments were personal attacks on any of the posters. Perhaps you should try some civility.

Ha!
Thats rich coming from a person who tries to give context to statements like

“If I see someone (who) comes in that’s got a diaper on his head and a fan belt wrapped around the diaper on his head, that guy needs to be pulled over,” [Louisiana Congressman] Cooksey said. [Link]

May I suggest that you develop a thick skin because thats what you context providers tell us when we complain.

Just because racism isn't an exclusively American phenomenon doesn't make it any less racist. What next, let's make torture legal because it is in many countries in the Middle East (including Israel, by the way)?

Quick, I'll race ya to the bottom!

Vikram,

Manish pointed out a media trend that is pretty much what the more pessimistic among us expected. I read the post with disgust leavened by Manish's sarcastic humor. Good to know, but I'm not going to picket in the streets over it. But you just went and added depth to this whole issue by being the sort of kapo who will find justification for just about anything done by those civilizing, democratizing westerners. "yes, sahib. That coolie will be beaten most severely. More nimbu panni?"

I agree that this is offensive.

I sent her a polite -- but I hope not obsequious -- email to let her know I found it offensive and explain why.

Hi, I found your cartoon today ("Osama is Here") offensive.

I'm a turban-wearing Sikh and a U.S. citizen. In recent years I've frequently been insulted via derogatory slurs such as "towelhead" and "raghead." It's not the end of the world -- one gets used to hardships of this sort -- but it still hurts. And it's still un-American.

Your cartoon traffics in a similar kind of mean-spirited rhetoric. With Bin Laden's turban as toilet paper, the cartoon goes beyond reasonable caricature into the terrain of an ethnic-religious slur. It's one thing when a joker on the street uses this kind of language, but it's another when a major editorial cartoonist uses it. It is, in my view, irresponsible and unacceptable, just as anti-black and anti-Jewish slurs and stereotypes are unacceptable.

I'm not asking for anything -- and don't worry, I'm not trying to start a boycott. But I would ask that you keep in mind that such images can make life a little bit harder for Americans like me, and refrain from using this kind of image in the future.

Amardeep Singh

It's just a small thing (I'm sure many of you would be a little more direct and less wordy...), but maybe if she gets a few letters she'll think twice about publishing this type of thing again.

So was Step'n Fetchit. That li'l guy really cracked me up!

That caricature was insulting to all blacks. Toilet paper on Osama's head is insulting to him, who may I remind you, wants to install the Caliphate over all our crushed skulls and liberal ideals. Again, I point at the editorial pages. There are an abundance of caricatures of people in the news of every ethnic group. Most people aren't so hypersensitive, because they know it's aimed at the individual, not the group.

Ugh. Can we do away with the house-negro/coolie-type retorts please? There are other far better arguments to be made (and mercifully have been in this string)

I sent her a polite -- but I hope not obsequious -- email...

Sandy's a dude.

If you cannot debate the subject without making this a personal attack, then perhaps you shouldn't participate. The moderators I thought were strict about that. None of my comments were personal attacks on any of the posters.

funny how you resort to this every time you feel threatened, or hoisted by your own petard. "Moderator! Moderator!"

Btw, Vinod requests that people stop calling conservatives 'House Negro' or 'Uncle Tom' and debate the issues on their merits. I agree, it's pointlessly corrosive and ad hominem.

Sandy's a dude

How ironic!, Sandy is sometimes used a short form for sand nigg*r. BTW, Bush is shown as a rapacious rat with a taste for oil. What is the Rorschach analysis on that?

SMR, sorry, you're right. But I'd like to point out that I used kapo as the slur, not coolie.

That caricature was insulting to all blacks. Toilet paper on Osama's head is insulting to him,

Dude Vikram - Havnt u learnt by now that opinions contrary to what people here want to believe are not welcome here esp if u have a FOB opinion. As the moderators here have made it clear b4, this is a site for "2nd generation dudes only - preferably liberal"

What I have learnt is : Save urself some insults and post only if u think similarly, or on non serious issues or else go to a different forum where everyone thinks like u.

Welcome to circlejerk land my friend.

Babloo, I thought the Huffaker cartoon was pretty funny, and didn't get why Manish posted it until I saw the toilet paper. Apparently, in order to counterbalance the portrayal of Musharraf as a political panderer, and Bush as a oil-hungry warmonger....Osama needed toilet paper on his head. It makes that particular slur ok, acceptable, and somehow symbolic of ObL's crimes (since the guy didn't come up with much else to satarize him.) It's an easy, needless, tasteless shortcut...and should make anyone with a profile-worthy complexion rather uneasy.

Aten, I'm a FOB. I've been here for many years now, so maybe not so fresh...but I'm still an immigrant. So I don't see how you can speak of some unified fob opinion. "The other side does it too!" is generally not considered a great argument, so if people here shredded it, I don't see how we're suddenly standing in a circle.

Dude Vikram - Havnt u learnt by now that opinions contrary to what people here want to believe are not welcome here esp if u have a FOB opinion. As the moderators here have made it clear b4, this is a site for "2nd generation dudes only - preferably liberal"

Aten,

You don't have to be liberal to be vigilant about racial and religious slurs. You just have to have some self-respect.

And also, you'd be surprised at how widely read Sepia Mutiny is amongst Indian bloggers and blog-readers in India. It's not just an ABCD thing. Do a Technorati search; you'll see.

What I have learnt is : Save urself some insults and post only if u think similarly, or on non serious issues or else go to a different forum where everyone thinks like u.

Oh the persecution!

Aten, I think you're being unfair. Most of the spitting and hissing happens in the comments section - by other readers, not the moderators. And just the fact that those comments remain on the site should tell you that they're perfectly happy leaving in other points of view.

Oh, and btw, I'm FOB and proud of it. I'd appreciate it if you didn't generalize and speak for me.

thanks Cicatrix. Please let's NOT start again with the tired old FOB v. ABCD/South Asian crap again that only serves to insult, marginalize and isolate a portion of mutineers. It's so tedious, and obviously after 900 threads on the topic the only thing we've found is that not everyone agrees. No big shock there.

Dude Vikram - Havnt u learnt by now that opinions contrary to what people here want to believe are not welcome here esp if u have a FOB opinion. As the moderators here have made it clear b4, this is a site for "2nd generation dudes only - preferably liberal"

I am beginning to think that there is truth to this underlying ideology. Well, if people cannot have a debate from all sides of the spectrum (isn't that what this web site is purported to be ?), then in what way is it any different from the close minded people who opinions are being dissected in most of the threads. If people are so quick to call me names and labels, then I think it more reflects on their mentality than anything else. Ah well, it is friday, you folks have a good weekend.

Don't you find all political cartooning sort of, well, vile? Was there ever a time when political cartooning didn't trend toward the very worst instincts? Toilet paper rolls, political leaders as devils or satans, fangs and all, really, it so very often veers off into yuckiness. Which is not to excuse any one particular cartoon. It's all gross caricature. I never find any of them funny, and the cartoons certainly don't make me think in any new way about an issue. They do nothing to change my mind. Why do newspapers even have them? They should just have a blank space instead, with a caption that says: draw your own version of little hatreds and predjudice here. You too can demonize here: look, all Democrats are traitors to country and cause. Look, all Republicans are war-mongering devils. That way, everyone may be happy.

Your favorite libertarian-conservative, i.e. House (insert standard derogatory term here) signing off.........

Btw, Vinod requests that people stop calling conservatives 'House Negro' or 'Uncle Tom' and debate the issues on their merits. I agree, it's pointlessly corrosive and ad hominem.

Ok I will stop calling people HNs.
Btw I would never call a thoughtful conservative like Vinod or MD a HN. I reserve that for brown Western apologists who defend everything Western not on merits but because its Western.
I will restrain myself in future.

MD, I see your point, and very much respect it, but I think of political cartooning as one of the greatest freedoms of speech. Often cuts straight to the heart of the matter, brings the flaws in each argument squarely front and center, knocks down pompous politicians down a peg, slyly says what everyone's thinking but can't say for fear of recrimination and outrage....a great cartoon can do as much as, if not more than, a great editorial, I think. Of couse, when bad, it's nothing more than glib, inflammatory, name calling.

From what I can see of huffaker's work, he's not bad.. which makes the toilet paper all the more disappointing.

What's somewhat problematic in this chain of comments is not that the cartoon is insulting to many desis, which it clearly is. It is that our response is the ineffectual comments indicating our exasperation at the racism of the American majority, the letters begging them to treat us fairly, etc. etc.

That's ridiculous.

This sort of cartoon is exactly what one could reasonably expect from the American imperial media. Nothing particularly wrong with that. Its what the Romans were probably saying about the Visigoths 2000 years ago.

But the answer is not trying to get in the good graces of the American elite. Unless and until desis have the power (primarily economic, somewhat military) to stand up to the American imperalist regime, little can be accomplished. That is a pretty good goal though, and achievable in my mind.

After all, the Romans laughed a lot less at the Visigoths after Rome was sacked.

Well, if people cannot have a debate from all sides of the spectrum (isn't that what this web site is purported to be ?), then in what way is it any different from the close minded people who opinions are being dissected in most of the threads.

Vikram, If you take a look at SM's comment threads since it began last year, you will see that "debate from all sides of the spectrum" is more than tolerated. People certainly might disagree with your opinions, but it is irresponsible to say that debate and discussion of differing view points is outlawed here.

Vikram,
I am FOB. I would hate it if, due to a feeling that this site only caters to ABCD opinions/ or only liberal views, you decide not to put out your views.
If the comment section became an echo chamber of ABCD liberal views than it will be a sad loss.

Wow..slow down there Hari Chandra...you just blew me waaaaay past my perch on the liberal end of the Sepia spectrum. What exactly are you advocating by Unless and until desis have the power (primarily economic, somewhat military) to stand up to the American imperalist regime? Military?

Don't you find all political cartooning sort of, well, vile?

I suppose there's a reason they are pictures and not words... to make it easier on the target audience?

er, that should be

you blew waaaaay past my perch.

(very poor motor skills. sorry!)

After all, the Romans laughed a lot less at the Visigoths after Rome was sacked.

What are you going to do, fly a few planes into some skyscrapers?

RC,
There is a time line for the F in the FOB ;
You have been posting here for a while as a FOB.

Cicatrix:

OK, so I was exaggerating a bit and doing my best JNU-prof imitation rant about American imperalists, which I don't *really* believe.

I do believe that nations, and their primary cultural outlets, trend to treat other nations, and people relating to that nation, differently based on their standing in terms of global power.

Its not reasonable to expect that the U.S. media would treat South Asians with any level of respect, given the lack of general South Asian influence on the world. Influence in today's world, I think, is primarily economic, though partly military as well. I think that finding some equals to the U.S., economically and otherwise, might add to some more humility in the press.

Vikram, as you can see, the tides turn often at Sepia, so no need to feel so persecuted.

Punjabi Boy:

I was thinking more in terms of buying trillions of dollars worth of U.S. treasury bonds (as China does today)

I was thinking more in terms of buying trillions of dollars worth of U.S. treasury bonds (as China does today)

Why do you feel the need to 'sack Rome'? Why not just live in peace with everyone?

Bad analogy: Was trying to tie back to the previous visigoth comment. Could just as easily said, "Decline of Rome". I'm not much into violent solutions either.

the letters begging them to treat us fairly, etc. etc.

Hari Chandra,

That is a slanted and uncharitable way of reading a letter expressing a feeling of offense.

You start by telling someone they've said something wrong. (If you don't tell them, they might not know it.) Then you see what happens. If you get nada, you go for global media domination or whatever.

With earlier outrages like the Power 99 call center flap in Philly or the Hot 97 "Tsunami song" in New York, SMers started out writing lots of letters and making calls to the radio stations and found that nothing happened. But when they went to advertisers and the other MSM started covering it, the stations had to take notice.

In this case, there is just one person responsible for this cartoon, and it's not likely to reach as many people as, say, a radio station. It's possible he might be responsive to polite complaints. Again, I insist that this is a reasonable and civilized approach -- it is unfair to call it begging.

If you're really offended, you don't have to write him at all; you can write people at the newspapers and websites that carry him.

This is infact a pro-liberal Democrat-leaning political cartoon.

The point of the cartoon is not to show Arabs as toilet-roll wearers, the point is to show that GW is not really intersted in pushing Gen. Mushy to drive extremist elements out of Pakistan. And the reason Gen. Mushy does not want to drive extremist elements out of Pakistan is because that would not win him lots of popularity votes.

“If I see someone (who) comes in that’s got a diaper on his head and a fan belt wrapped around the diaper on his head, that guy needs to be pulled over,” [Louisiana Congressman] Cooksey said.

I happen to be very sensitive to racial profiling but seriously, this is about Osama. It is unclear if the intent of the caricaturist was to insult the turban. It is alarmist to immediately infer a racial slur from this. Although the Seinfeld joke is well chosen.

To sum up quickly then:
Vikram and Co, lose debating points for bringing in the 'two wrongs may make a right' argument. Aten loses points for making it personal. And more points for failing to realize that the cartoon itself is very liberal.
Manish loses points for making the rather tenuous leap from Osama -> all Arabs. Oh, and failing to get the gist of the cartoon.

Hari Chandra, thanks for explaining. I mutter the same to myself, darkly and under my breath whenever Shepard Smith, Roger Ailes, et al bob up like worm-ridden apples to deliver their latest smears, smiling those horri-

uh, sorry..(turning off Air America) ..what was I saying?

Seriously though, I'm all for economic growth, but wanting military might in order pound 'humility' into someone else is a terrifying proposition. Also, contradictory. don't you think?

Amardeep:

You are correct and I apologize. I'm not sure entirely inspired my previous rant.

this is a site for "2nd generation dudes only - preferably liberal

I disagree with the 2 nd generation part but you definitely have to be liberal and the way these guys define it.

Humor as you and I understand (a slight exaggeration of the behavior,accent or appearance of a certain group of people) is actually lack of pride in oneself or one's ethnicity.

You should definitely believe I feel, therefore I am.

Vikram and Co, lose debating points for bringing in the 'two wrongs may make a right' argument. Aten loses points for making it personal. And more points for failing to realize that the cartoon itself is very liberal. Manish loses points for making the rather tenuous leap from Osama -> all Arabs. Oh, and failing to get the gist of the cartoon.

???

whether the cartoon is "liberal" or "conservative," "democrat" or "republican," is beside the point.

the point is that the cartoonist, in depicting osama wearing a toilet roll and paper, played into two linked stereotypes, both false and harmful -- indeed, deadly.

one, that turbans are akin to toilet paper,

two, that turbans are a marker of extremism and terrorism.

depicting george bush as a rodent isn't going to get anyone killed. ridiculing turbans by associating them with defecation (btw, how's that for a link with the other thread?) and, to add injury to insult, stigmatizing turban wearers as extremists, is ammunition for the idiots who beatdown or kill sikhs and other wearers of similar gear.

peace

AM,
I am going by the definition of those born and for most part grew up in 'Des' as FOB v/s those born in the US.
Its all good.

Humor as you and I understand (a slight exaggeration of the behavior,accent or appearance of a certain group of people) is actually lack of pride in oneself or one's ethnicity.

What exactly does this mean? Since you're definitely-not-a-bleeding-heart, I don't quite understand why you're so touchy....

Ugghhh... Shepard Smith

Cicatrix:

I am no fan of military buildup, but in today's world, I wouldn't mind my economic growth protected by a reasonable phalanx of mirage fighers.

To take India as an example, the alternative could be Nepal falling into Maoist hands and a million Chinese troops amassed on our border, depending whatever it was they demanded back in 1962 (god knows what that was, I recall it being Arunachal Pradesh)

second sentence to read, "demanding whatever it was..."

This is infact a pro-liberal Democrat-leaning political cartoon.

Irrelevant to the point I'm making.

... this is about Osama. It is unclear if the intent of the caricaturist was to insult the turban.

Either unlikely or tin-eared, like calling someone a coon and then protesting you're referring to their resemblance to wildlife:

Offensive terms for Arabs... Towelhead, Raghead or Diaperhead, referring to the head coverings worn by some Arab men.

Also see the quote from the illustrious Congressman from Louisiana, the movie Towelhead, and the long history of this slur as applied to Middle Easterners, Sikhs and desis in the U.S.

The point of the cartoon is not to show Arabs as toilet-roll wearers, the point is to show that GW is not really intersted in pushing Gen. Mushy to drive extremist elements out of Pakistan. And the reason Gen. Mushy does not want to drive extremist elements out of Pakistan is because that would not win him lots of popularity votes.

Yes DesiDude, there is an important political message in the cartoon, but it could have been conveyed without drawing a toilet paper turban on Bin Laden. Draw him like a rat if you want, but to draw the turban like Huffaker does is derogatory and insulting to other turban wearers, as Amardeep says in comment #21.

While I disagree with most everything Vikram has to say, I have to agree that the use of "house negro" and the like is distasteful at best. I also don't think we have any call to be using that particular phrase anyway--it's a legacy of plantation divide-and-conquer. I've heard plenty of black people say they're wary using it. I dont' see why we should. The vilest arguments, if made on their face, deserve counter easy counter arguments, not ad hominem attacks.

It actually took me a while to figure out what was the problem until Amardeep posted his letter--I actually didn't see the toilet paper in the cartoon. It's not my favorite style of cartoon, I find it visually confusing.

That caricature was insulting to all blacks. Toilet paper on Osama's head is insulting to him,

I can see where this argument is coming from, which makes it all the more necessary for our counter arguments to be precise and careful. I think Amardeep's tack is exactly right: in my experience fiery, offended outrage does not make people feel bad and think about changing nearly as much as persistent, careful explaining. And I think this cartoonist is someone who might be able to see our point of view, and change their minds*, so it's worth a try.

Racists have developed idiosyncratic buckets of tricks and insults, one bucket per perceived group. American racists have their own buckets for their own groups; I'm sure we could find similar buckets in other countries.
Now, even when describing someone despicable, using an insult from such a bucket gives that insult credibility and heft, and implies that part of the disgusting thing about the despicable person is their ethnicity/whatever. Therefore it spreads the insult out to all the innocent members of that group, unfairly associating them with the despicable person and also putting more sting in an insult that they are undoubtedly going to face again. Therefore personalized insults are both more effective and risk less collateral damage--they're less generally offensive, and more specifically and desirably offensive against the true target of insult. And they're a lot harder to make-- a true challenge for the crafty artist.

It's possible that a some American, say, without too many friends from a given other minority group might not be aware of the contents of the bucket corresponding to that group. I think sometimes many of you are too quick not to give people credit or put yourselves in other people's shoes. The fact is OBL's turban is somewhat distinctive,and it's very white, and it's clearly made from a softer, fluffier fabric. It lacks that hardcore taut and starched look. It's possible, that Sandy was thinking that this is more of a personalized insult.

Here's a question for you: is it okay to insult OBL as a pansy-ass pretty boy coward who uses fabric softener on his turban, or is that too insulting to gentlmanly fops the world over?

But the answer is not trying to get in the good graces of the American elite.

Um, I hate to point out the obvious, but a lot of us are Americans. I'd really prefer we not get sacked any time soon, thank you very much. Luckily most of India is not dumb enough to take that advice and has no interest in stupidly attempting to sack us.

*Whew! What a concept! Try to talk to someone in a way that's designed to change their mind!

Hari Chandra...I see your point. Mirage fighters would be nice. And having the ability to defend oneself against an aggressor is, naturally, important. I just find that agressors are usually trumped up a bit by hawks in order to justify excessive military buildup.

Its not reasonable to expect that the U.S. media would treat South Asians with any level of respect, given the lack of general South Asian influence on the world. Influence in today's world, I think, is primarily economic, though partly military as well.

But I think it is reasonable to expect the media to treat South Asians (well, anyone frankly) with respect. I know that's not going to happen, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't expect it. If we lower our expectations, they won't fail to take advantage of it, and deliver even less. And I think south asian influence in the world, economically, culturally, (not so much militarily, I think) is quite lage, and growing rapidly...so much so that Americans have noticed (we're not the only ones making jokes about Indian ingenuity re: outsourcing) and I think growing awareness has brought a certain uneasiness along with reluctant respect.

Saheli:

Admittedly, a sack of the United States would be an exceptional logistical nightmare. The colonization of the United Kingdom, maybe. Perhaps a coup d'etat in Washington - a RAW sponsored reinstatement of Bill Clinton as premier.

I wasn't being literal then and I'm not being literal now.

Cicatrix:

I see your point about expectations and your point about hawks using imaginary aggressors to unnecessarily justify military buildup (see: George Fernandes). The United States is beginning to notice South Asia in a way that it hasn;t since the gloray days of Nehru. Its good.

Thanks for highlighting the toilet paper. I hadn't noticed it and thought you guys were referring to it out of the blue !

Glory days of Nehru? Sorry when was this?

For decades the US has hated us for being pally pally with the Soviets. You want them to 'take notice' of India like that again? Er...

MD take a look around the site this cartoon is on, it's on I look at regularly as I'm a big fan - they can be immensely insightful and also very touching (see the Tsunami section). Hell I've even had a ham-fisted attempt at drawing Osama myself.

Just goes to show that talentless hacks who can draw a little can pass garbage as "cartoons" and file it under the category of humor. In all due honesty, this cartoon in itself doesn't phase me. What irks me is the context, quality, and medium it was displayed in. That cartoon really isn't funny, not because of the TP turban, but in general. Someone with a creative sense of humor could actually present something different, fresh, and funny, even if it is slightly offensive. It's all about the context of the presentation.

Newspapers, news websites, and professional editorial columns should apply more discretion to what is put out (um, quality?). There is a time and place for humor of this sorts, and the context in which it's convyed wouldn't be all that offensive. Stand up comics, writers, and humor websites take liberty in poking fun while getting some laughs.

It's the type of humor that isn't necessarily for everyone, but you can access such humor at your own will without having it passed on to you with a saccharine saturated coating, which is what 'political' cartoons in the more established media do.

If anyone has seen the movie 25th Hour with Ed Norton Jr., he goes into a rant literally tearing up every minority, majority, rich, poor, powerful, loved ones, etc. The rant, if read by itself or piecemeal is quite offensive. But taken into the context of the movie, it makes sense.

Political cartoonists as a group just aren't talented enough to expose and utilize more subtle, yet tremendously funny sources of humor. Instead of trying to cater to what the audience really wants, why not do something original and push something new, fresh, and creative? The standard replies are,"But, oh, they [the audience] just won't get it!". Well buddy, that simply means you really don't have much talent to create something; You just regurgitate pre-processed, high sodium, high fat, high calorie, mixed horsemeat crap.

What is really surprising is that this kind of insensitivity is usually prominent among the right/conservative folks(who coined 911 changed everything) - Sandy seems to be from the liberal left who dislikes the Republican/Bush administration. From someone from that category to draw a turban with a toilet paper is rare. If anytthing, they are over-sensitive to terroristy types.

M. Nam

This is infact a pro-liberal Democrat-leaning political cartoon.

Irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Manish, that line was meant for the guy who brought out the whole liberal vs. conservative circle-jerking tangent to the conversation.

But a toilet roll is not the same as a towel. Plus, there is no precedent of toilet-roll-head used as a derogatory term.

...like calling someone a coon and then protesting you're referring to their resemblance to wildlife:

Putting a simple turban on his head would have sufficed. But then again, this is not any Middle-Eastern person shown here. This is not just any old 'someone'. It very specifically refers to OBL not to an Arab/Asian stereotype. The interpretation of the toilet-roll in this cartoon IMO should be 'OBL is a toilet-paper-head', not 'Middle-Eastern folk'.

I am familiar with the 'towelie' slur. I would be very outraged if they showed any unmarked Middle-Eastern/SE Asian person with a toilet-paper in place of the turban.

Yes, as I said in comment #30, it's an easy, needless, tasteless shortcut.

What exactly does this mean? Since you're definitely-not-a-bleeding-heart, I don't quite understand why you're so touchy....

I was trying to give pointers to Vikram on how to be a hit on this blog. I was being sarcastic...

The formatting on the last post was screwed up. Apologies.

// begin Not in blockquote

Putting a simple turban on his head would have sufficed. But then again, this is not any Middle-Eastern person shown here. This is not just any old 'someone'. It very specifically refers to OBL not to an Arab/Asian stereotype. The interpretation of the toilet-roll in this cartoon IMO should be 'OBL is a toilet-paper-head', not 'Middle-Eastern folk'.

//end not in blockquote

this is a site for "2nd generation dudes only - preferably liberal

I disagree with the 2 nd generation part but you definitely have to be liberal and the way these guys define it.

I found out about Sepia Mutiny via BlogHer and it was presented as the exact opposite of an echo chamber; I'm inclined to agree. After wading through the site, I do not see a bias towards liberals and as I understand it, the site is BY or FROM 2nd generation Indians FOR everyone (not just dudes). Or so we were told.

Complaining that an opinion held by what you perceive as the minority isn't welcome is a fine way to distract and avoid the hard work that is crafting a solid argument. I think we all know that it's easier to whine.

Oh, and the cartoon is problematic, if only because people who wear turbans have to deal with enough ignorance and stupidity, they don't need more.

Thanks for this site.

DNBH.. ah, I see. That fabled conservative humor. It appears so rarely, I'm sorry to have missed it.

Perhaps we need to have standards for depictions of Osama.

Osama should always be depicted nobly, preferably riding a horse with laughing children trailing him. Or with a sword attacking an Apache helicopter. Osama can also be shown in the laboratory developing new methods for milk production to feed laughing children. Also, please use Mr. bin Laden's left side as he thinks that is his best side. Do not show his nose hairs either as he is very sensitive about that. Also his eyes are rainforest dew, not brown. Please take my advice. Rainforest dew.

Irene, as someone here said about somebody else, you missed the point by about a hundred miles.

ObL is depicted very well in this picture. The cartoonist was so busy slamming Bushy and Mushy, he didn't, apparently, give much thought to ObL, and seemed to think that swaddling his head in TP would do the trick...even things out..be fair & balanced.

The point is that this is predicated upon the assumption that the turban can be seen as a symbol for all that is evil about ObL. This, obviously, places every turban-wearing man alive in one hell of a ridiculous spot.

No one is saying that bin Laden deserves a better depiction. Turban-wearers do.

Who removed my post?

And am I not deserving of a reason why?

cicatrix and bong breaker (what is a bong breaker anyway? Does this question mark me out for the prudish ninny I am? Well, good. And cicatrix - I use that word all the time in my pathology reports. As in: Skin, site, procedure: 1. Cicatrix. 2. No residual dysplastic nevus seen (typical pathology report. Don't know why I felt the need to tell you that)

Ok, you guys know more about this stuff than I do, so I'll check out the cartooning site on your recommendations. Still, the blank space for your own cartoon is a good idea, innit?

The point is that this is predicated upon the assumption that the turban can be seen as a symbol for all that is evil about ObL. This, obviously, places every turban-wearing man alive in one hell of a ridiculous spot.

So the derelicts who would hate a man because of his headgear would be less inclined to do so if it was drawn as cloth and not toilet paper.

How about an Osama with no turban at all then?

A criminal could, hypothetically, take advantage of the behavioral changes being made required. Once upon a time, if a plain-clothed man with a gun runs at you, you err on the side of caution and run for cover in case the guy doesn't have a friendly face, and even if he is friendly, you'll demand identification and that procedures be followed in detail. Today, we have to err on the side of caution by assuming a security official will inspect us and let us go upon realization we're a good diaper-wearing individual, and we don't dream of questioning the motives or asking for their id.

The criminal-minded could take advantage of this and mug every scared sikh down to the last penny as a "security measure". Let's just hope the mafia don't wisen up to this untapped lucrative market of sikh-robbing. By the time a recently mugged and still screaming sikh finds someone blind enough to lend him a cell phone, the thief would be refueling his gas for the fifth time three states away.

MD, Badmash and The Boondocks are two of my favorites, although, strictly speaking they're more comic strips than political cartoons. Eh, whatever. And yes I chose the name for the many connotations, thanks for noticing.

Irene: I give up. You're either being deliberately obtuse or dumb as a rock.

what is a bong breaker anyway? Does this question mark me out for the prudish ninny I am? Well, good.

No idea what it means love.

the point is that the cartoonist, in depicting

osama wearing a toilet roll and paper, played into two linked stereotypes, both false and harmful -- indeed, deadly.

one, that turbans are akin to toilet paper,

two, that turbans are a marker of extremism and terrorism.

Deadly, Wow ! I have heard hyperventilating before but this takes the cake.

Most people can make a distinction between a cartoon and real life. I think the only thing the cartoonist was trying to do was be funny.

If you stretch this argument a little further alomost all art (Please note that I am not saying this is art) can be deadly. it will invariably offend someone. especially in this age were we are all taught that any hurt feeling is bad, actually deadly.

Also, I would welcome comments from people as to what the cartoonist could have done without the toilet paper or the turban and still be funny.

I am sure any depiction would have offended some other group. Or is it just Desis we are trying to protect ! If so, I withdraw.

DNBH, you conveniently ignored the fact that Siddhartha M also said this:

ridiculing turbans by associating them with defecation ... and, to add injury to insult, stigmatizing turban wearers as extremists, is ammunition for the idiots who beatdown or kill sikhs and other wearers of similar gear.

His argument was a fairly self-contained one, so I think 'stretching it a little further" is of really no consequence.

By the way, did you really find the toilet-paper-turban funny?

Complaining that an opinion held by what you perceive as the minority isn't welcome is a fine way to distract and avoid the hard work that is crafting a solid argument. I think we all know that it's easier to whine.

Jennifer,
I don't have a problem with the hard work. Ok I will say it - SM kudos on the hard work.

Now calling me a whiner is an equally easy way to avoid actually refuting the argument. Now please take a few seconds and point out the people who have disagreed with the fact that we need not use words like deadly to describe a cartoon.

OK . take a few days and show me some examples where people have actually sided with the conservative view point.

I feel justified in calling this a liberal hang out.

ABCD bachcha log getting their knickers in a twist over a cartoon. lage raho !

His argument was a fairly self-contained one, so I think 'stretching it a little further" is of really no consequence

Oh, It is. Implicit in my argument is the fact that we do not stop producing cartoons because of the hadnful of idiots. So do we stop criticizing this administartion because there is a nut case somewhere who would take what we said and try to harm someone in the adminstration. Common, you know better than that !

Whether, I find it funny is beside the point. to be honest, I think it is silly but definitely not deadly as you seem to think.

dnbh,

if you found my argument challenging, I'm sorry. but let me answer your question:

Also, I would welcome comments from people as to what the cartoonist could have done without the toilet paper or the turban and still be funny.

answer: lose the toilet paper.

pet it now?

peace

oops -- that should be:

get it now?

peace

Who removed my post?

And am I not deserving of a reason why?

do you mean this one? you posted it on the wrong thread.

try as you might, you're not being persecuted by sepia's management.

peace

For those of you whose brains are exploding because of thinking too much here at Sepia Mutiny, head over to http://www.dippu.com and look at pictures of my new niece. That should make everybody happy. :)

That's shameless self-publicity there daycruz. But I visited. You know that pic of a bunch of kids a little way down? I can always tell the difference between British Asians and American/Canadian Asians. It's like some weird fifth sense.

in my opinion this isn't a debate about the merits of caricatures, or the general level of racism in society. its about, for brown people, maybe shit is about to hit the fan. make all the lame points you want, but tell me you'd have chosen to be japanese in the 40's. if not, then you might understand, us browns are trying to figure out if we're about to land in a pretty bad spot. if you're not down with wondering about that, get out of the way. cos this is know pretty serious business for us.

"Most people aren't so hypersensitive"

are you serious? we're not supposed to be acknowledging the fact people are considering some pretty bad ideas about what to do with us brown men? you're taking de-racination to an all time low here.

have you ever seen a political cartoon from the 30's? sometimes political cartoons or pictures might be like canaries in a mine shaft, just my opinion

us browns are trying to figure out if we're about to land in a pretty bad spot. if you're not down with wondering about that, get out of the way. cos this is know pretty serious business for us.

Might I suggest a tinfoil hat or expedia.com?

Expedia.com? Are you suggesting I should leave the country if I feel threatened? Pathetic.

"Might I suggest a tinfoil hat or expedia.com?"

I doubt you expect this is an appropriate response, and if you do, what are you doing on a site for south asian people?

Can we stop responding to people who can't see the obvious ignorance and racial stereotpying in a cartoon depicting a toilet paper roll coming off a turban for a moment and have a serious conversation among those of us who are capable of such things?

Here's a topic: Why do we SM posters and readers have so much more discussion and action about cartoons, radio stations, and other examples of things which will allegedly lead to bad things, but many fewer about actual bad things like this this possible hate murder and subsequent botched NYPD investigation of a brown person in May (apologies if this was covered and I missed it, but I didn't see it deemed postworthy) or this recent news that immigrants entering from 32 Muslim countries, Thailand, and the Phillippines are being profiled and subjected to extra investigation. Which particulary immigrants--I don't know--because it's being done by order of a "secret memo" that we're not supposed to know about for some reason. So much for democracy.

From the Guardian - Rabinder Singh QC - one of Britain's top young lawyers - he works with Cherie Blair wife of our Tony

An open letter to the person I sat opposite on the train yesterday.

Yesterday I sat on my commuter train and you were already sitting there in the seat opposite. Your eyes were closed. You must have been tired. Then you opened your eyes and you saw me. You got up and moved to the next carriage. Perhaps you wanted some privacy or did not want to disturb me with a mobile phone call. Or perhaps you were afraid of me ...

That would not surprise me. Some people say that the police should stop and search people who look "Asian" or "Muslim" at underground stations. In fact I am not a Muslim, I am a Sikh, but it does not matter - I still look suspicious to some. They say that only young men are like the suspects, but I have heard of women being stopped.

I share your fears. I do not want to die a horrible death any more than you do. I have a family to look after - perhaps you do too. You know so little about me - I wish we could have chatted and perhaps we might have realised what we have in common. All I ask is that you do not prejudge me. That is what "prejudice" means: to prejudge someone simply because of what they look like.

What can I say? On the television everyone is talking about what it means to be "British" and the end of multiculturalism. You may not think I look British but I feel British - I am a British Asian, or British Sikh if you like. If I go to India they know I am not one of them - they can see me coming a mile off. I like Indian food but so, I think, do you. And I also like Italian food, and Chinese, and bagels ...

I don't particularly like Bollywood, but apparently enough people in the area where I live do like it because they show Hindi films at the local cinema. By the way, in case you were wondering, it is not in Southall - in fact most of our neighbours are white, although one is from Norway and another American. I don't think people ask them: "What are you doing here? Are you British?"

I do not go to the gurdwara very often but I do believe in God and I am proud of my heritage - I respect my parents and the tradition they came from. I do not think God would want us to hate each other because of the way we look. And I certainly cannot accept that God wants us to kill innocent people.

But we have to care about innocent people everywhere - in Iraq and Chechnya as well as in New York and Madrid and London. I am not a pacifist, but I do believe in the principle of nonviolence. Only in the last resort could it ever be justified to use violence, when there is no other way open to defend ourselves or to protect others. You may have heard of Mahatma Gandhi. He was not British. In fact he used the principle of nonviolence to help push the British out of India. I think he was an inspiration to everyone; I think you might agree.

I am a lawyer, by the way. What do you do? In my work I sometimes represent the government. Not just the present government; I used to represent the last Conservative government in court too. But I also sometimes defend the rights of individuals who are pretty unpopular. That's my job. They may be asylum claimants or gay people. They may even be suspected of terrorism. I don't think suspending the Human Rights Act is the answer to the terrorist threat. The act is not part of the problem. It is part of the answer. It represents what we stand for - democracy and the rule of law.

Some people say we should not let the terrorists win; we should carry on as normal. But they seem to be the first people to say that we should get rid of these laws that "get in the way". In the way of what? Do we want people locked up in prison for years without ever being charged, let alone convicted? If it happened somewhere else, I think you might write a letter for Amnesty International demanding their release. But it happened here - until the law lords said it was incompatible with human rights.

These are not some foreign laws. British lawyers helped to draft the European convention on human rights, which was "brought home" by the Human Rights Act. And it is based on British notions of fair play going back to Magna Carta. Yes, I do know about these things and I do care about them. Shakespeare, John Locke and Tom Paine. They have made me who I am. They were as British as I am.

Maybe I am not what you think I am. Remember, we are all individual human beings, with our hopes and dreams; we all have our faults but are basically good, I think, and try to do the right thing. It's what is inside us that really matters, not the colour of our skin or what we wear. I do not ask you to agree with me about everything. But I do ask: please do not prejudge me because of the way I look.

· Rabinder Singh QC is a barrister at Matrix Chambers and a visiting professor of law at the LSE

Manish:

The point is to improve the country we live in.

Was it at Berkeley that you picked up your sense of outrage & racial/ethnic identity politics?

Nicely done! I expect nothing less from someone who chooses curry as their moniker.

Deepa,

Raju was talking "race war". If you think that's what's going on, then you seriously need to don the tinfoil or get out.

Going so far from reality does nothing to fix real injustices.

Manish, Raj, cicatrix, siddartha m, saurav--

If you think depicting Osama with a toilet paper turban is wrong, what would you say of talk like this:

Brown man to white man:

F**k you s**t for brains!
1. My sister was born in this country and is more American than your mullet-wearing-Milwaukee’s-Best-swilling-franks-and-beans-eating-relatives.
2. Most of you f**kers couldn’t point out where Afghanistan is on a map let alone point out where most American states are located.

That non-sequitors are fun, but generally not useful?

I expect nothing less from someone who chooses curry as their moniker.

You assume quite a bit. You should avoid doing that.

Manish, you engage in the kind of ethnic navel gazing that would get a white person labeled "racist". Maybe I'm mistaken, but my guess is that you didn't have that ethnocentric POV when you were a twelve-year-old boy in that spelling bee, so I'm curious as to what happened between then and now. UCB has the reputation as a place where students indoctrinated in the notion that everything bad in the world is caused by the white man, etc.

If you aren't comfortable with my terminology, feel free to say that you became "aware" at Berkeley. I just want to know if that's where it happened. If not Berkeley, please tell me when, where, and why. Traumatic experience at the hands of skinheads in high school? I really want to know.

"Raju was talking "race war". If you think that's what's going on, then you seriously need to don the tinfoil or get out."

Irene, I don't agree that's what Raju was saying. I think he was saying that we (desis) could be about to become collateral targets of the War on Terrorism. I personally am freaked about the British "shoot-to-kill" order and the recommendation by the International Association of Chiefs of Police to shoot bomber suspects in the head. Aside from this extreme there may be a great increase in hate crime against us.
I personally was born and raised in the U.S. and it's ridiculous to tell me to leave the country if I am not willing to put up with racism against me. (As I recall, the comments thread on the July 4th post contained a whole long "love it or leave it" discussion to which I refer you.)