My goodness, you could be Bengali; look at all those political posts. And I'm guessing you're sitting down when you type. Politics and sitting down. Bengali.

i suggested to manny to do a poll of what type of people read SM, ie; location, professional background, age, religious background, ethnic background, what they self-identify (ie; south asian vs. other stuff). hope that comes through soon. i predict the blog is heavily biased toward

1) the left
2) professionals
3) the young
4) americans
5) non-muslims (since 1/3 of south asians are muslim worldwide)
6) punjabis, and a lesser extent other groups outside the cowbelt (especially bengalis, and perhaps between saurav's constant long comments and my occassional ones + bong we might be #1 in wordcount!)

Great idea, but please don't call me 'manny,' ajeeb.

I agree on all the point razib, but how do you define young? For instance I have no idea how old any of the people on here are.

And point 5 is an interesting one. I've not seen all that many Internet discussion sites/blogs/fora but my experience with Asian ones is that there have always plenty of Indo-Pak or Hindu-Muslim battles. Vast swathes of the comments I've seen on here since 7/7 would've sparked a lot of controversy on some other sites. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining - but it's interesting to note that there aren't a great deal of Muslims here.

Back to my main point, I want to know ages.

what do you suggest, razib? posting a form which commenters fill out and submit anonymously?

Razib, I agree with 2,3,4,5, and 6. I find points 4 and 6 the most irritating, followed by point 5 (and I would also add that the few Muslim commentors are disproportionately non-Pakistani).

I disagree with point 1 -- people here a leftish on identity politics issues becuase this is an identity politics blog. Self selection. But are commentors leftish on tax policy? Environmental issues?

Hmmm. Commenting on commentors. Lets add a point 7

7) Narcissists.

Can we have a poll pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Addition to Razib's list.

8)The most important - BROWN

I may be along in voicing this opinion, but I'd rather not see a demographic breakdown of Sepia readers. Way too many sites try to find out who I am in order to market stuff to me, and even though I know our dear Mutineers would never consider such a thing....why bite fruit from the tree of knowlege?

oh, wait..y'all are hindoo, right?
;)

Seriously, I'd like to voice a strong objection, for the record. The info in this post is interesting, and I'm all for learning more trivia/dirt on the backstage antics of the mutineers....(Anna, I often tried to guess which one of you came up with the name. You're a genius)....but please don't poll the readers. It'll result, however inadvertently, in a "typical reader" profile. And if given a few scraps of information, people tend to build a whole caricature around it, filling it in with their own biases and presumptions.

Did I forget to mention that I think this is a bad idea?

uh, that should've been "I may be ALONE in voicing..."

ikram, you are right, "left" is not a good way to put it, especially contextually since on pakistan policy most here are more "hawkish" than the typical american (perhaps because they know where pakistan is on the map, unlike the typical american). as for #5, the anti-"south asian" crowd here persistently argues that muslim browns have seceded from the "south asian" identity already (at least, religious muslim browns). i think in some ways SM is a good gauge of who "south asians" are (especially in the USA), that is, it seems to express the common modal sensibilities of ethnically aware, but wholly american, browns.

I second Cicatrix but for far more practical reasons. What Mutiny have you ever seen succeed where you had detailed info on the Mutineers and their cohorts? None. Compartmentalization is the key. Mutiny's thrive on anonymity and deeds done in dark alleyways.

ikram, you are right, "left" is not a good way to put it, especially contextually since on pakistan policy most here are more "hawkish" than the typical american (perhaps because they know where pakistan is on the map, unlike the typical american).

Similar views are held by Non Indian American Liberals who beat up on Bush via Musharraf/Saudi Arabia.

And if given a few scraps of information, people tend to build a whole caricature around it, filling it in with their own biases and presumptions.

that doesn't already happen? all we really have to go on now are the comment boards, so if that is your concern, we should close these down! i think my biases are known in this area: more data, not less. anyway, it would all be anonymous, unless you have a static IP and think it is worth anyone's time to sue your ISP for your personal info. the regular commenters are almost certainly a skewed sampling of the numerous lurkers, so i suspect that a poll would highlight greater variation in the readership as opposed to the comment boards.

Besides which we, and many of our readers have profiles on Friendster. That should be all the information one needs :)

Fair point cicatrix (and to a slightly more sinister extent, Abhi). But I still want to know ages. I'll throw a tantrum. Not necessarily individual ages, I don't care if someone makes up the average age and tells me, I'll believe you. Just at least pretend you're being honest when you say it.

is there a brown american weblog as popular as this one? i've heard about SM in other parts of the blogosphere, and the media coverage really does suggest that this is becoming an authoritative watering hole where you can sample the brown american zeitgeist. if a poll readers tend to be more educated, wealthier, less hindi (native)-speaking, more hindu, etc. etc. than the typical american brown, that should give us some perspective i think.

Razib,

Won't the poll skew in favor of people most likely to respond to a poll?

I know I wouldn't fill it out, so voila! - your Sri Lankan readership suddenly looks a lot smaller. I don't think it would highlight variation in readership any more clearly than the ever-contentious comment boards.

Why is knowing that the average SM reader is a 42yr old male Systems Analyst, American-born but with parents from Uttar Pradesh important? Suddenly it's like we're becomming one those matrimonial sites.

If people are already making presumptions based on comments, wouldn't it make it more annoying to have to explain that you are, in fact, for example, an 18yr old girl who lives with her parents in Lahore.."so stop telling me my comments are 'typical for a systems analyst!'"..?

At least current assumptions about each poster are based on what each person says. What if the polls reveal that the average age of a Sepia reader is about 23? Wouldn't that turn off the older readers from ever posting?

Once again, bad idea.

If a poll readers tend to be more educated, wealthier, less hindi (native)-speaking, more hindu, etc. etc. than the typical american brown, that should give us some perspective i think.

perspective on what, exactly?

I bet more lurkers would reply to a short, anonymous poll than post a comment.

I disagree with the mindset that's reflexively against additional data. In my mind this falls in with the anti-biotech bias in the U.S. stem cell policy (the S. Koreans are kicking our asses), the anti-contraception bias in family planning policy, and on and on.

There are all kinds of interesting things you can glean from the data. The numbers speak. It's like a great party: there's more drama.

Won't the poll skew in favor of people most likely to respond to a poll?

yes, but the skew would likely be less. i can illustrate my own weblog's experience with polls, we get between 3,000-4,000 unique users per day (low vs. high bound over the past year of readership), and the polls usually elicit about 300 respondents. this is vs. 50 regular commenters. it could be possible of course that my 50 regular commenters are more representative of the readership than the 300 poll respondents, but since the latter is a large sample and the hurdle of contributing is lower, i doubt it.

the crux here is precision. i think a more precise model of who reads, comments, etc. is a good thing. for various reasons that you (and abhi) outlined, you don't think so. (i also suspect i miss clues as to the backgrounds of readers because i am not as brown savvy as some of you, so perhaps that explains the difference of opinion, you already know what i'm curious about)

Bong Breaker, a poll would just give you an average age, unless the mutineers set up something really complicated. My guess? It hovers roughly in the early-mid thirties, with you, of course, bringing that down a lot all by yourself ;)

It'd be interesting to see some kind of comments:readership ratio. Some hotly-debated osts such as the Londom bombing ones may then move down in the list, as their popularity is based not only on controversy, but as they are recent posts, increased readership as well.

with you, of course, bringing that down a lot all by yourself ;)

cica how the hell do you know that?! Did I leave my webcam on again? Maybe I AM a 42 year old Systems Analyst dammit!

I disagree with the mindset that's reflexively against additional data. In my mind this falls in with the anti-biotech bias in the U.S. stem cell policy (the S. Koreans are kicking our asses)

That's a stretch.

I don't think anyone is against data, just against broadcasting said data. Its just like when you call a 1-900 number. You don't want to know the reality but would rather bask in the fantasy. I don't call 1-900 numbers but I am just saying.

My guess? It hovers roughly in the early-mid thirties

Really? I would have guessed an average in the mid to late 20's without many outliers. Like Razib/Ikram said, this blog is popular but the characteristics of the commentators seem sort of homogenous compared to how diverse south asians really are.

I'm 21, anyways, and I think more credit should be given to everyones ability to respect an opinion as an individuals own take rather than that of the group they belong to.

Bong Breaker. My best estimates tell me that are readers fall mostly between 24-33 or so. Readers younger than that are wise beyond their years and are constantly impress their friends at dinner conversations. Readers older than that are hip and young at heart. I suggest you create a Friendster profile and get to know your co-readers. :)

I disagree with the mindset that's reflexively against additional data. In my mind this falls in with the anti-biotech bias in the U.S. stem cell policy (the S. Koreans are kicking our asses), the anti-contraception bias in family planning policy, and on and on.

See..you just assumed a whole string of things about me Manish. Most of which are egregiously untrue. Being against a Sepia poll does not make me reflexively against additional date. It just make me against this poll. That's a transitive fallacy if I ever saw one. And you took that one thing and wandered down a path that led to stem cells and South Korea. I went to a Math and Science boarding school founded by Carl Sagan, pro-choice since the age of 10, and am one Price Theory class shy of an economics minor.

Dude, did you just prove my point?

Numbers are only as accurate as their interpreter, Razib. Have you installed a function in your polling software that prevents people from voting repeatedly? If each of your commenters took the poll 6 times, you'd get, um, 300 readers I believe.

I'm a little confused as to what the antithesis would be to my (and Abhi's) objections.. care to explain further why this would be a good thing?

Suddenly it's like we're becomming one those matrimonial sites.

What, you mean SepiaDestiny(tm) isn't already planned? With all the whining and self-deprecation that goes on by single brown men around here, I'm shocked there isn't already a dating service for SM readers. Salon and Onion and Nerve fans can meet others, why not SM? Then you'd get all kinds of aunties trolling the site too, shopping around for their unfortunate single relatives, and being scared off by pics of MIA and Daisy Duke. Come on, how will you ever progress the Sepia brand unless you sell out? :p

What, you mean SepiaDestiny(tm) isn't already planned?

MG,
How much you want for the rights to that web domain?

See..you just assumed a whole string of things about me Manish. Most of which are egregiously untrue.

My point is not that people against this poll are pro-life. It's that those against gathering additional information hold a position which contradicts a pro-sex ed or pro-stem cell position, and they may not even realize it.

Have you installed a function in your polling software that prevents people from voting repeatedly?

That's pretty standard, though not foolproof.

care to explain further why this would be a good thing?

The burden of proof works the other way. Knowing more must be the default. Can you imagine where we'd be if science and the arts worked the other way around?

I don't think anyone is against data, just against broadcasting said data.

So if we get all these fascinating insights and just sit on them, people will be happy? ;)

Suddenly it's like we're becomming one those matrimonial sites.

Then don't forget to ask about wheatishness. Are SepiaReaders unusually veatish? Inquiring Aunties want to know.

So if we get all this fascinating data and just sit on it, people will be happy? ;)

I'll be happy knowing something that other people don't. Is that a bad thing? I still see no correlation between this and science. I'm a scientist but I don't want to see user statistics broadcast unless we go commercial.

To me the argument is simple. If we don't do a poll are we going to lose readers? No. If we do a poll will we lose readers? Maybe.

Numbers are only as accurate as their interpreter, Razib. Have you installed a function in your polling software that prevents people from voting repeatedly? If each of your commenters took the poll 6 times, you'd get, um, 300 readers I believe.

look, i'm not an idiot. i don't think any poll is fool proof, and i don't think that weblog polls are "scientific," very few people do statistical analyses on them. partly, it's just fun. partly, it allows a sharper perception of the community than an impressionistic assay via the comments. as manish said, most polls have the standard IP blocking functions so that you can't vote over and over. but you can get around that. but, if someone goes to the trouble of switching computers, or booting their internet connection over and over to switch their dynamic IP, that tells you something about the strength of their opinions (or their mental issues). but the idea that someone would vote over and over is kind of bizarre, it's not like this would be an online popularity contest.

as for the 'burden of proof issue,' i'm not a burkean conservative about this sort of thing. non-personal data is good. information is good. instead of why, i ask why not? perhaps it's just a paradigm difference, but i don't think it's that big of a deal and i don't think it would detract from the weblog at all. as it is, the data junkies would have something more to chew on (perhaps not the best quality data, and we wouldn't have a flat file that we could work with doing correlations, regressions, etc.), but it would be some interesting stuff i bet. mebee not as good as chicks rubbing their titties together, but hey, every post can't be about T&A.

I still see no correlation between this and science.

there are many gray lands between poppertopia and alchemy.

let me say that if there isn't a poll, i'm not going to cry, and i'm not going to stop reading the site. i thought it was a no brainer, i'm a perpetual data collector, bad, OK and good data, and my goal is always to glean some gold nuggets in the noisy tempest. i just thought it would be fun, and the fact so many people are taking it seriously kind of weirds me out. so this is my last comment on this topic, but you know which way i vote (and yeah, i'm going to vote more than once!).

internally contradictory with a pro-choice or pro-stem cell mindset

Please exlain further. My mindset makes if difficult for me to immediately grasp such nuances.

the burden of proof works the other way. Knowing more must be the default.

I bet more lurkers would reply to a short, anonymous poll than post a comment.

I don't really want to get into a spat about this. You guys should do as you think best. I just wanted y'all to know that some of your readers appreciate the arguments and conversations that erupt here without the need to pin everyone else's backstory down, precisely.

Which, by the way, smells remarkably like someone named Curry.

While the hoi polloi debate polling, is it possible to determine the people that comment the most(mutineers and otherwise) - usual suspects include Punjabi Boy, razib, Saurav, DesiDancer, Al Mujahid, cicatrix, Lovin, Bong Breaker(off-late)...did I miss anyone?

Amongst the mutineers I think Abhi and Manish have the most number of posts and both comment more often as well.

I think most of us already have a profile here ;)

Haha, nice one Al Mujahid! I tea-leafed an idea from the FT and I wrote an article about arranged marriages, MBAs and MBBSs. I placed a few ads on one of shaadi.com's rivals - a 'professional', an 'MBA' and a 'doctor'. Ch-ch-ching ching who got the most views and requests for more info? However I'm not linking to the article cos it has a shocking picture of me dressed up to look like a bad catch - oiled hair, thick glasses, Dad's blazer - the lot.

I finally see what's going on here. Manish, in an atempt to claim the top spot in the list of entries above, has posted about posts with the most comments so that he can claim the top spot with this post, which is generating a lot of comments. Very devious.

This post documents most-debated posts. And a debate rages about polling in the comments of this post.

Man, I lurve you guys. :)

I'm even trickier. I've posted a poll poll, thereby simultaneously collecting more data and invalidating its central question ;) Head on over and vote there.

I placed a few ads on one of shaadi.com's rivals - a 'professional', an 'MBA' and a 'doctor'. Ch-ch-ching ching who got the most views and requests for more info?

Great minds think alike! I did it when I was in college, though, for a story in Hum magazine.

What, indeed, is seventy-five dollars for a lifetime of happiness? My bud Shalini and I placed two matrimonial ads each to find out...

One of the ads was a simple, orthodox ad that followed the matrimonial rules. It gave the barest minimum in information and generally looked just like all the other ads. I expected the most responses from this ad, and I expected to receive lots of form-letter biodatas.

The other ad, however, was me. It was long, detailed, open, non-traditional, and risky. I poured out my heart's fondest desires.

And fools seldom differ ;) Cool piece Manish - especially liked this line:

I'd stumbled upon one of the secrets of the matrimonials: mentioning ethnic background means "same ethnicity only, please."

and this one:

She asked several rhetorical questions, but I let it go since she was a law student.

My article was a bit more tongue-in-cheek, I've actually just found it and rediscovered that picture of me. I didn't shave for a day or two either. Wow it's horrific. But I'll repeat the caption that went with the picture (not the ad I placed! Just an example of what to avoid. Most of it - I swear - is real stuff I found online.)

Hallo I am Dr2hot4U, 28MLondon. I am doctor. looking good wife. I am not fussey, but must be beautiful homely, 5’2”-5’3”, sharp features, must be bachelors masters doctorate only, cook sew knitting, must be fair. FAIR. Im having good sans of hummer and hobbies enjoy listing music and love my job which is doctor. I belive: that success of marriages is not the magic which happen automatically but the magician to make this magic is we are so I thinks that there is few keys to make this happen. Mother and father both doctors. Sister is married to doctor. I am doctor.

Oh, you kids are cute. Really cute.

* I always answer randomly on poll questions, I barely read them, and also, I make things up all the time. But you knew that. My data is my data, after all. Maybe you *don't* need to know.

**What is it with this Friendster thing? Isn't it just a fancy way to display your biodata, you ABCDs?

**I have a colleague who has a horror story of having a bunch of his/her students circulating (is that the right word?) his/her Friendster profile. He/she wishes certain things were not on said profile. I, as an educator, am going to stay away from the Friendster......

preserve the mystery! let SM be the SM each one of us imagines! let the lurkers lurk, the bloggers blog, the commenters comment, the haters hate and the players play!

abhi and cicatrix, i'm solidly in your faction. perhaps we can mutiny against the mutiny poll. subvert it in some entertaining fashion.

especially bengalis, and perhaps between saurav's constant long comments and my occassional ones + bong we might be #1 in wordcount!)

hey, Razib, I like to think I'm doing my bit to help with that record.

Mutiny's thrive on anonymity and deeds done in dark alleyways.

Forget this polling debate. I want dark alleyways, and I want them now!!

Its just like when you call a 1-900 number. You don't want to know the reality but would rather bask in the fantasy.

I knew it! You people have my credit card number and all those hits on the refresh button are somehow costing me, aren't they?!

Manish, when did you change your comment, #31? I did a cut&paste when I quoted you in #36, and now they're not the same words. wtf? No fair!!!

(again, not trying to pick a fight. I see you guys fix posts all the time. But comments are different, cause....well....it's not bloody fair to the rest of us who try valiently to phrase our comments articulately, is it?)

Screw it. i AM picking a fight. You evil man!

You originally said:

internally contradictory with a pro-choice or pro-stem cell mindset

So my response,

Please exlain further. My mindset makes if difficult for me to immediately grasp such nuances.

makes no sense, and it looks like my typing/reading comprehension is even more excreable than it does usually!

evil!

when did you change your comment, #31

Within a couple of minutes of writing it. I'm notoriously obsessive-compulsive about polishing. Everything gets tweaked for a few minutes up to an hour after I write.

I did a cut&paste when I quoted you in #36...

Press Refresh next time ;)

I mean, "my response NOW makes no sense.."

aw, forget it.

Everything gets tweaked for a few minutes up to half an hour after I write.

well, fuck. I wish I could do that here in the trenches! My eloquent and erudite thoughts wouldn't get so mangled by my ten thumbs then. e.v.i.l.

*skulks away, casting malevolent glances over shoulder*

I wish I could do that here in the trenches!

Yep, absolutely. The tradeoff is that it would then require registering for a name and password, which would probably put off some commenters.

Also, not 30 seconds after I posted my comment I changed 'up to half an hour' to 'up to an hour.' Check out which version you snagged ;)

*skulks back to say*

yeah, well, I'm not waiting around for you to finish polishing in order to rip you a new one, buddy.

Good point about registration being a put off for some. But still, not fair to us that you edit your comments.

*blows raspberry*

*skulks off again*

But still, not fair to us that you edit your comments.

Believe me, it's to your benefit. I'm not a fan of my first drafts.

Neither am I! that's my point! I've been marvelling at your graceful pithy quips in the comments areas...and now.. I KNOW WHY! no fair!!

*clay feet visible*
*manish falls off pedestle*

*cicatrix feels a whole lot better about herself.. even though she's still intensely grumpy*

Neither am I!

a fan of my first drafts, not yours, I meant to say..

ugh. this is probably a good time to go reclaim my real life.

Girlfriend, those quips are all natural.

Manish, please don't start any comment with "girlfriend" ever again. Please. :)

don't be listenin' to him, you go girl!

Desi please. Talk to the hand, 'cuz the man ain't listenin' ;)

Manish, please don't start any comment with "girlfriend" ever again.

And what, pray tell, is wrong with that? Though it was slightly misaddressed. ;-)

--Saheli

Age group : 24-33???

whoa . I am nowhere close to 24. I don't want to admit how old ( young) I am now!

colorism's got to go