Haha I grew up in that area, and there are way too many Indians out there. They are trying to reduce the number of Indians who migrate to Abu Dhabi.

Not a surprise. I have seen ads in Indian newspapers routinely that prefers Muslims for jobs. We are talking about a whole different scale of discrimination that we are talking about here.! Interestingly, westerners are prefered more than Muslims and Indians.

won't the real vinod please stand up, please stand up...how funny. before i read your comment, i wondered if you were mutineer vinod... ;)

"too many indians out there"? oy.

not to mention the number of malloos over there :)

a little statistic..not sure how true it is
Locals in UAE - 18%
Indians - 45%
and the rest

There is a reason why they want to reduce the number of Indians working over there.

Hey, in their defense, they are not purporting to be a non-discriminatory state ;)

"Interestingly, westerners are prefered more than Muslims and Indians"

Not suprisly since the entire Gulf was a adminstrated by a hand full of British residents, hence the worship of the Europeans. Also unlike Arabs or Muslims Westerners are less likely to get involved in local disputes (hence the gulf being the favoured destination for Ex British Army officers).

Why are Indians so disliked ?
1)Remember overnight wealth descending on the most backward area of the Arab World, which had long been dissed by other Arab. So to deal with their inferior complex by kicking someone else further down the scale, especially if its those smart ass Indians who in the early days of the oil boom of their education accupied the middle management and skilled positions.

2) Being in the wrong place at the wrong time - Expanding and increasingly educated population coupled with declining oil revenues mean that the white collar jobs that Indians have tradition done are now wanted for locals.

On the inhuman treatment of workers, the law is most of the gulf has little value for non-nationals. The only time it gets enforced is when a local or the interests of the ruling family are effected in which case you can kiss your sorry ass goodbye even if you are blonde and blue eyed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4526759.stm

Incidently Has anyone had on a return visit to the their respective motherlands had to deal with their relatives or friends mistreating a domestic or finding out that children are used as Labour rather then being at school ? What did you do about it ?

sorry didn't mean to post twice :(

Skimmed through the newspaper this was published in. Seems its targeted to NRI readership and sold in INDIA. Might have an adverse effect on their readership I think.

Nobody know the real numbers of foreign workers and hey we helped build the place. In adddition if my memory serves me right, your family has to have been in the UAE since before the 1920's in order to qualify for citizenship.

well, you can also get the 99years citizenship by purchasing one of dubai's million dirham ( Cdn$1 = 3.6Dhs approx) properties. Also, the property is yours/your family till the 99years limit.

Wait till the oil rans out. After its straight from the Porsche Cayenne to the Camel's HUMP s500.

ised: Curious that most statistics in official publications (even the CIA factbook) put the number of local Arab citizens much higher than that of expatriates, when all one has to do is walk down a street in Dubai to know different! :)

Vidushi: I believe that the 99 year provision is for permenant residency and not citizenship -- probably for the best since even UAE citizens can't vote or participate politically in any case!

Anna, did you just say y'all? Unbelievable...

My roomie from B School like all good Mallus (even though he was brought up in faridabad !) after a stint with Coke and PwC has landed up at Jeddah (of all places!) to work with some bank there.

On asking when he plans to return, the reply
"Dude, get me a job that pays as much with tax-free status, and I'll return!"

The fact that he reports to a Sudanese nincompoop does not matter :-)

I wanted to point out that the Sheikh of Abu Dhabi prefers Pakistanis ( since they are muslim) to Indians and is not really fond of non-muslims. A lot like his father actually. On the other hand, the Sheikh of Dubai is a lot more tolerant and modern than Khalifa.

The other emirates, especially Sharjah, do not like Sheikh Mohammed's more tolerant behaviour ( basically to draw tourism and foreign investment, duh) but they saw how his PR scheme drew in so much $$$, Shj has started offering PR-properties too.

Indians are not preferred to apply.

It says Indians are not preffered. It does not, however, say anything about Pakistanis, Bangaldeshis etc. So your below statement on the Big Brown family won't hold, cause there is no such thing as a Big Brown family in that part of the world.

.....the minuscule silver lining is, less jobs for brown people means less brown people in the gulf, which means less stories...

They don't like Indians because Indians are a bad influence. Indians get them addicted to booze and drugs. Especially the alcholic mallus are notorious for this.

You'd think Anna's post would provoke similar attitudes from all of us. But just reading these comments has been rather interesting:

there are way too many Indians out there

Indians get them addicted to booze and drugs. Especially the alcholic mallus are notorious for this

VM: In the Gulf states "Indian" is a generic term for all people from the subcontinent - I highly doubt that if one showed up with proof of Bangladeshi citizenship that it would be any different.

sadbuture: Hogwash! Everyone knows that Indians and especially mallus are a bad influence because they have these crazy ideas about equal access.

It says Indians are not preffered. It does not, however, say anything about Pakistanis, Bangaldeshis etc. So your below statement on the Big Brown family won't hold, cause there is no such thing as a Big Brown family in that part of the world.

oh, dear. i am truly sorry to disappoint you, but it DOES hold. did you click through to any of the links i included?

if you had, you would've noticed that the first post was about how Saudi Arabia doesn't want non-Saudis as security guards etc etc. NON-SAUDIS. that includes Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

the second post i linked to was about the horrific abuse inflicted on SRI LANKAN maids. not indian. so yes, sorry to rain on the anti-inclusivity parade which has gotten tiiiiiiired on this blog, but my usage of the word "brown" is still apposite.

now if you want to constructively contribute a viewpoint, i.e. "in that part of the world, south asians tend to..." then i'm all ears. er, eyes. :)

They don't like Indians because Indians are a bad influence. Indians get them addicted to booze and drugs. Especially the alcholic mallus are notorious for this.

bongbreaker, you are so much more diplomatic than i am...

i call bullshit. this st. thomas christian wants to stick her doubting fingers into the wounds of your evidence. put up or shut up.

sadbuttrue: do you want to explain how mallus get saudi royalty addicted to booze and drugs that is illegal in the country and sells for 10x the price in neigbouring countries ( alcohol tht is)

Because as far we know, mallus and saudi royalty dont sit together and have parties and trade stories of their alcoholic adventures.
Not to mention which hard working mallu would be able to afford illegal alcohol in saudi. I don't think he left his family behind, laboured in the 42 degrees C, to blow it all up on the Johnny Walker Black label.

..now if you want to constructively contribute a viewpoint..

ANNA dear, so are you saying that any opposing view point from yours, is not constructive :)

Actually, I hadn't clicked on any of those links. But the point I was trying to make is that just as employers in those countries can be discriminatroy about religion (as in Muslims preferred), they can be so also with nationality (as in Pakistanis preffered etc.). In fact, I do recall coming across ADs, ages ago, that specifically preffered Pakistanis for the job. From what I understand, there are quite a significant number of businesses there that are managed (not necessarily owned) by 'Brown' people, and the hiring practices of these companies sometimes tend to reflect views of those managing them. Note: At the higher echelons of the brwon family, not everybody is united!

Now having said all that, be it watever, as long as ofcourse i have your ears, err eyes :)

ANNA dear, so are you saying that any opposing view point from yours, is not constructive :)

eek, hardly! i just don't want to reopen that us vs them (south asian/brown vs indian) divisiveness. that dead horse has been beaten beyond recognition.

"...there are quite a significant number of businesses there that are managed (not necessarily owned) by 'Brown' people, and the hiring practices of these companies sometimes tend to reflect views of those managing them"

Very true but that's just it, only from within the 'brown blob' are the different sub-continental nationalities most visible. Those outside of this blob seem to take an extremely generic view. Somewhat of a reverse effect to what we unfortunately see in the West (brown = Arab). Overall, in the Middle East brown sure ain't Arab, it's Indian.

Vidushi, I'm a Mallu who's never been to the Middle East. (oh yes, there such people.) I don't know about the "corrupting influence" bit, but I know for a fact that the illegality of alcohol never stopped a Mallu in the "Gelf" from getting his high. We just brew our own, you see. WHo needs Johnnie Walker when you have Vattoli Johnachan weaving his magic with yeast and wheat and sugar?

WHo needs Johnnie Walker when you have Vattoli Johnachan weaving his magic with yeast and wheat and sugar?

haha - nice ;)

My point was mallus in the gulf, esp Saudi, do not socialise with the Saudis. So I don't see how they could have taught the Saudis how to brew their own n become addicted ;)
Not that Saudis would brew their own- they're too lazy for that.

My point was mallus in the gulf, esp Saudi, do not socialise with the Saudis. So I don't see how they could have taught the Saudis how to brew their own n become addicted

True. And for all their holier-than-thou personas, the Gulf royalty drink quite a lot and many of them have cellars full of liquor (without any undue influence from us alcoholic Indians of course).

Indians get them addicted to booze and drugs.

This is the funniest thing I've read all day! Thanks for the flush of hot tea out of my nose; I needed that!

As an Indian-American who's lived in the Gulf, I don't understand why the Emirates of all places wouldn't want qualifed people who will work for slave wages. Isn't this called "looking a gift horse in the mouth?"

Again, I know several oil rats who can't wait to move to the UAE because of the "amount of opportunity we have to look forward to."

On the one hand, whites are preferred for technical positions. On the other, whitey in Arabia is Shaitan and must be purged. Go figure.

At least there seems to be solidarity amongst Arabs and desis here in the US. How else do you explain the 6 step A.B.S(Arab and Brownfolk Security)?

:)

Anna,

This reminds me of an advertisment I once saw on Khaleej Times online, which is an English paper based in Dubai. The ad was for a multinational company which was looking to hire a secretary. A lot of the local ads ask for US/UK educated candidates, so that came as no surprise to me. But of course, this dosen't mean just ANYONE with a degree from an American university, it's just a nice way of saying "We just want to hire white people".

The ad went on to list a whole bunch of other requrements and then ended with "Malayalis need not apply" in bold.

Dubai and the Middle East is for brown people who don't mind selling their dignity for some extra cash and for white people (primarily Brits) who love to perpetuate the rascist ideologies that their own countries have long since declared illegal.

i have multiple arabs from the gulf tell me with bright grins how much cleaner muslim indians were than hindus. one of the guys, who was a palestinian raised in dubai told me how dirty the hindus were while shaking his repulsively dandruffed head. i don't know if this is true, i'm very skeptical, but i do know in china muslims get into disputes with han because the former tend to have higher hygiene standards for ritual reasons. filipinos were also characterized as 'very, very dirty,' so i suspect that anti-kufir prejudice was behind it. though it is pretty obvious that the racism was another major component, and that hits pakistanis and bangladeshis too.

p.s. my impression is that recruitment is selectively biased toward muslims. in kerala it is the mappila who tend to go to the gulf far more than their numbers in the general population from what i gather.

was a palestinian raised in dubai told me how dirty the hindus were while shaking his repulsively dandruffed head

I have heard similar views about Indians from Gulf Arabs and the Lebanese.
However they held the same views for both Hindu and Muslim Indians and did not seem to differentiate between Indians on religious basis.
For example I have been told that:
- Indians there in the Gulf are oily (especially comments about their heads being oily)
- Their mouths are red presumably because they eat paan
- Indians are very dark ( in lebanon/jordan etc., they consider themselves to be superior to darker skinned folks)

Geez, there was not a single knowledgeable comment made here about the peculiar racial stratifications in the Gulf particularly through and about the South Asian diaspora. This is to me the biggest tradegy amongst the "progressive, politicized desi" movement in the UK and the US. It consistently makes the mistake of unwittingly emphasizing the Amero-eurocentrism that plagues it regardless of how much it claims to criticize it.
I'm a third generation desi that grew up in the Middle East in Bahrain since my grandparents were brought here in the 40's by the British upon the oil discovery. I think that the history and struggles and current oppressions of and by the desi diaspora are urgently in need of attention. The diaspora here in the US is so pathetically guilty of their own elitism towards desis in the Gulf. I hear the most alarming conceptions from second/third gen desis i meet here who sneer when I mention the Gulf and start associating every problem in the Gulf with the "inferiority" of desis there. "Oh but aren't the Indians there like lower class, uneducated people and all South Indians *sneer*" The paucity of academic or mass media literature on the area baffles me.
There's a scarily complex and efficient system in place with tightly bound strata that no one strays from. People on all sides have been/are blindingly convinced about it until very recently.
* Westerners do occupy the top rung of the local hierarchy. Ex: Indian Ph.D. holder and English truck driver competing for a position- English dude gets it. This has everything to do with most Gulf countries being former British protectorates thus inheriting that legal of racial classification.
* There IS a difference between Muslim South Asians and non-Muslim South Asians in the Gulf. Pakistanis, Baluchis and Bangladeshis have long had access to fast, easy citizenship and lines of family in arms of the state such as the police force and the army. Exclusive citizenship policies and a strong cultural vocabulary that contains the "foreigner", the "expat" no matter how many generations they've been there is one of the most oppressive holds over desis in the Gulf. The uncertainty over place and the mere fact of location not the airy stuff about belonging is a serious burden to live with.
*The stratification is contained and structured along entirely moral lines. There are contradictory but highly specific degrees of morality attached to every social group - Filipina maids are inherently thieves, whores and seductresses; Bangladeshi maids are thieves, Sri Lankans and Indonesians are over sexualized and constantly fucking South Asian "labourers", and not to mention beating the Arab children they basically raise; Pakistani men are this, Shia Bahraini men are like that... the mad litany goes on...

I can't tie this all together right now but I'm just trying to throw out how little everyone is aware of thus having no right to speak/represent and criticize at this point, just ask every long-term gulf raised desi you met why the hell he/she thinks anything beyond business, IT, medicine and architecture maybe law is sacrilegious. Ask them how they really feel about their status in the Gulf, how they feel about the abusive treatment that everyone is sucked up to giving each other - wealthy desis to poorer desis, whites and most poor arabs towards desis, desis towards phillipina and other south east asian women, ...... everyone treats each other like potential criminals and defends their mistreatment.
Why does this happen?
What role do bizarre economic, historical and social structures play in this? What role do some really strange gender and racial ideologies within "Asia" play in this?

when the hell was anyone here apologizing for the way browns in arabland are treated??? i mean, anna speaks for almost all of us here i'm sure, and those she doesn't are bizarro caste-conscious FOBs and emulating american desi FOB-wannabes (or FOBs at heart).* sure, i've heard bizarro stuff being said like you said on more FOBish forums (usenet) back when i was younger, but those people are a whole different mentality.

now, speaking for me, i have had family members working in the gulf (one of my uncles worked like a dog for 15 years, though now he is back in bangladesh and a wealthy businessmen with multiple rackets going on). since they were bangladeshi i suppose they were privileged. but...well, sorry, brownland sucks, i can't help but think that being an arab's dog is better than being a prince among paupers sometimes. also, there are lots of injustices in the world, racial, religious and gender. if i had to pick between all the poisons of arabland, sorry, i would liberate the women of saudi arabia first and introduce religious freedom there (that would obviate some of the anti-brown issues, but not all of them since some of it is racial). all the injustices do suck of course...but there are other issues beyond the gulf that i look at too (like semi-racial slavery in mauritania).

i'm not unsympathetic to the brown plight in the gulf. i just think there are many other things that are important to focus on. my tears are finite.

* some people here might think i'm unfair to FOBs, but mostly i just am suspicious of them because i think they sometimes bring over a lot of cultural baggage i find repulsive. for example, the fixation with color and caste.** it's primitive (i'm being polite when i use that term). american raised browns are, i think, a bit beyond that because whether we are black, chocolate, wheatish, honey or whatever, brahmin or christian or muslim or sikh, we are in the end just "sand niggers."

** it is fair for people to point out that i have a tendency to date germanic blondes. that being said, i don't care about skin color, i think the dark tan + bleach hair looks good. i don't know, the fixation on color of browns is something different from my own visceral libidinous biases....

Geez, there was not a single knowledgeable comment made here about the peculiar racial stratifications in the Gulf particularly through and about the South Asian diaspora.

well then. i'm grateful you showed up. that's the point of all this blogginess. you think we think we're enlightening you when really, it's the other way around; we learn from you. i'm glad you commented.

p.s. speaking for myself (and quite possibly several others), i just don't like seeing anyone get mistreated, and yeah, if those "anyones" look like me then i ache even more. i've never been to the gulf. i've stated before, publicly, on this blog that though i have dozens of family members there, i don't want to visit b/c of all the rampant shittiness.

i've turned down a job there b/c i don't know that i could take WITNESSING the things we've posted about-- and no, i'm not saying that people beat their maids in public or that everyone watches little boys getting abused by their arab slave-drivers out in the open, but i can't imagine that this shit isn't in the very air there. it's just too pungent for it to be masked. that's why i rail against it all from here, the sepia soap box. i'm not denying anything you write (except for your contention that we don't have the right to criticize-- the world has a right to criticize outrageous conduct. see: rampant shittiness) and i agree, there's a scary lack of information. feel free to tell us more.

razib_t_a says:

* some people here might think i'm unfair to FOBs, but mostly i just am suspicious of them because i think they sometimes bring over a lot of cultural baggage i find repulsive. for example, the fixation with color and caste.

Not to be confrontational or anything but just relating my experiences as a FOB grad student here in the US. As regards the caste issue I have never given this issue thought, 'cuz growing up in Mumbai I haven't seen the caste system get much play there. OTOH the number of times I have heard the caste issue being wielded by desis in the US seems alarming. A number of my friends (also from Mumbai) did relate similar incidents with 1.5G/2G people telling them(and me) that they were from so-and-so sub-caste within so-and-so caste within so-and-so community from so-and-so region in India while we would look on in bewilderment. I realize this is sort of an exception to the norm where people from India are expected to be more caste conscious, etc. but I just thought I'd relate my experiences(bizarre as it may seem) - again no offense to anyone.

gradinLA, you might be right. i will be straight up that my brown-on-brown experiences (broadly speaking) is limited to the net. perhaps you are right, my impression is that there is a lot of variance on this issue among south asians, both american browns and indians, pakistanis and bangladeshis. but, my experiences on comment boards and on my weblog suggest that some people bring unconscious biases that they have never been challenged on. often it turns out that these individuals are indian immigrants or indians (the same issue has occurred with east asians).

i hope i'm wrong. and i abhor primitivism when i see it burst out amongst people on these boards who were born and raised here as well.

and i will name names, so to speak, for me, the most obnoxious people have been brahmins (pround of their "superiority" which most americans don't give a shit about), punjabis (proud of "looking white") and muslims (proud of not worshipping "idols" like you know who). though the vast, vast, majority of individuals within these three subsets do not fall into the category of "obnoxious" in the specific way that i am implying, the majority of those who are obnoxious often are from these three groups (in my opinion).

anyway, that's way off topic, and i'm probably setting myself for being flame bait, but i figured i'd lay that out there so that people knew exactly who i'm casting aspersions toward :)

p.s. the arab use of south asian labor is not new. in the 8th century whole communities "zotts" were enslaved and brought to southern iraq. they rebelled for a period...though they were eventually defeated by the caliphate.

and i will name names, so to speak, for me, the most obnoxious people have been brahmins (pround of their "superiority" which most americans don't give a shit about), punjabis (proud of "looking white") and muslims (proud of not worshipping "idols" like you know who).

Actually one 2G girl whom my FOB friend introduced me to was really obsessed with her caste and whatnot. And the surprising thing was she admitted that it was not one of the higher castes (like say Brahmins) but she was really into it, 'cuz every time we ran into her within 5 minutes of talking to her, the conversation would veer towards something related to caste. Again this is just my experience and need not necessarily hold true for 1.5G/2G peeps in general.

As regards Punjabis, I just find those who can do a mean bhangra always act superior. :). Not really, most FOB sardarjis (and other Punjabis) are really fun to hang out with and they even like to listen to my stock of sardar jokes.:).

As regards Muslims I know, most of them have enough trouble after 9/11 and most recently 7/7 and they don't want to add to their woes by alienating brown people. A muslim friend of mine (from Pakistan) just shaved his beard and went and bought a new car (after 7/7) 'cuz of the weird looks he kept getting. The new car was 'cuz the security guard at the place he's been working for the past 2 years or so started noticing his not-so-great car and his beard after 7/7 and seemed to be questioning him a lot. Anyways whatever the reason brown muslims seem to get along well with the rest. Again just my experiences - may not hold true for all.

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

On an unrelated topic, growing up in Mumbai, I have seen a lotta rich sheikhs descend upon the best hotels in the city. I often wondered what they were doing in Mumbai and would conclude that they probably were on business trips. I had a Saudi roommate recently and he was telling me about Saudi men who go to India to get married. And its generally men who already have 2-3 wives and are looking for a 3rd or 4th that seek out Indian wives. Now that was his explanation - maybe someone here can elaborate on this.

what's a sardar? i tried to google it, but there's a lot of stuff out there.

also, let me add a specific addendum of what i'm talking:

re: muslims. the easiest example that get's on my nerves is when they try to blame all bad things related to islam on indian culture. i'm not into indian culture, and my own background is muslim, but it still seems primitive and childish.

re: punjabis. i run a weblog devoted to genetics. about every few months i get an inquiry from south asians about south asian genetics, and 3/4 of the time i figure out that they are punjabis and they want to know how they are special, and they will often keep prodding me about particular genetic data that shows that they are closer to west asian people. after a while, it get's old, and i just tell them that knowing more data doesn't change who they are as people (sometimes i'm less polite).

re: brahmins. i've had a few people on my weblog simply conflate brahmins with indians as if all non-brahmin indians didn't really matter. ie; if someone brings up assimilation of browns into american culture and their decline in educational, someone else responds, 'well, how we preserve our brahmin culture?' when no one had mentioned brahmins. the attitude seems to be that everyone must think they are the pearl of great price because they think so (this happens a lot with jews too, just because they think they are the chosen people, some of my jewish friends act as if i think that).

so i was specific with my personal issues and interactions that i've had. there are others outside of these groups that i've had issues with, and very few people in these groups (aside from, to be honest, muslims) exhibit the tendencies i'm pointing to.

what's a sardar?

I am sorry, wasn't being PC. I should have said Sikhs.

this happens a lot with jews too, just because they think they are the chosen people

Ironically, I have encountered this attitude amongst Jewish people here in the States. I have interacted with Jewish people back in India (brown people who are Jews) - in fact I had a Jewish friend in High School - and they don't seem so bitten by it. To each his own, I suppose.

Btw, have you heard about Arabs shopping for wives in India? (As I mentioned in my last comment)

Btw, have you heard about Arabs shopping for wives in India? (As I mentioned in my last comment)

yes. thought it was an urban legend. they go there for organs you know!

the late king hussein's brother married an indian woman, though her and queen noor apparently hate each other.

i belive the late nigerian dictator sani abacha died of a heart attack while he was preoccupied with two indian prostitutes. nothing to do with arabs, but i thought i'd pass the nasty gossip along.

So the purpose of these discussions is to make fun of the rest of them ? :)

I am sorry, wasn't being PC. I should have said Sikhs.

Ah, you can say 'Sardar', it's not disrespectful.

"Surd" and "surdie," on the other hand, are a little distasteful.

bb

You raise some interesting points.

I disagree that there is a significant difference between the experience of Muslims/non-Muslims in the Gulf (maybe Saudi...). Iranians and Palestinians who become naturalized citizens in the UAE are also treated horribly. Personally, I didn't see either Pakistanis or Bangladeshis having it significantly better.

A very interesting point about social stratification. Question - isn't this not the case in most societies though?
Also, how far are desis themselves implicated in these sorts of abuses - e.g. construction companies, owned by desis hiring and then abusing workers from Punjab and Kerala.

I came across this site recently: http://www.uaeprison.com/

the late king hussein's brother married an indian woman, though her and queen noor apparently hate each other

I believe she was Pakistani.

Battle of the wives in Jordan.

Here is the Pakistani princess in Jordan.

Geez, there was not a single knowledgeable comment made here about the peculiar racial stratifications in the Gulf particularly through and about the South Asian diaspora.

Thats a little arrogant. I have relatives working in the Gulf for decades now and I have been there a few times.
I would actually take issue with your attempt at treating the experiences of the Indian Diaspora or the racial stratification as being similar across the gulf.
The GCC states/big cities range from the 'austere' Riyadh to the relatively free Dubai.
I have been to Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait and Oman. Muscat actually had temples even in the 80's. It is nothing like Saudi Arabia.

Btw, have you heard about Arabs shopping for wives in India? (As I mentioned in my last comment)

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040822/women.htm#1
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/mar/18saudi.htm
http://www.7days.ae/global-news/india-brides-for-sale.html

razib_t_a: I guess you haven't run into punjabi muslims or punjabi brahmins on your blog ;-). Turkish and/or caucasian mountain origins just a few generations back are a certainity with such folks.

Back to topic..
Slate has an interesting article "Thanks for Your Hard Work. Now Get Out!"By Eric Weiner
on the same topic, but I love ANNA's heading wayyyyy better.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2124497/?nav=fo

that sucks

anna, razib, jay, al mujahid - My bad. That post was rather belligerent sounding! While some people do things like drunk dial when under the influence, I write incoherent posts on Sepia Mutiny.
The rant I initially posted stems from a series of frustrations that I unfairly took out on participatns of this discussion. For starters, I'm always irked by apparent concern for the situation facing South Asians in the gulf when for the most part (not on Sepia mutiny) diasporas based in the West are incredibly guilty of turning their nose up and maligning desis in the Gulf because they weren't the upper class, ultra educated ones that were allowed to enter the States in the 60's and 70's.
When I've talked to many american desi friend's parents about the migrant labour situation there, their immediate answer is "well, its their fault. Why do they go there in the first place?"
Although I'm really glad that our generation here gives a shit, is paying attention and trying to discuss what goes on with desis elsewhere, most of the anecdotes shared don't really reveal anything new but rather contribute to the cloud of myths and stereotypes surrounding the region - ex. "indians get them addicted to booze and drugs" e.t.c e.t.c....
The categorization of indian labourers as morally degenerate is key to their continued oppression. For example, labourers for construction companies live in really shitty parts of town in overcrowded quarters, cramped in tiny rooms often without basic amenities such as running water and electricity.
Locals (poorer usually Shia Arabs) that live in the same area constantly complain that labourers maintain "vice dens" where drinking is rampant, bootleg liqour is sold, prostitutes are around e.t.c e.t.c. They're painted as a major threat to the superior morality inherent in Arab/Islamic culture, as a contaminating presence that rots the country from inside. Local politicians who scapegoat .......
have to run.. will continue post later..

how can a culture that discriminates be morally superior?

Wow Razib, for someone who frequents a "South Asian" site, you seem to know very little. I also find amazing how you'd like us all to know how you actually have a life by bringing up your frikkin' girlfriends in every bloody post. Get over it. A Sardar is a Sikh. There is nothing PC or non-PC about it. But the word Sardar is not just used for references to Sikhs, and I don't know it's exact meaning wither. Something like "chief" or "leader" or something.

Second, as someone who studied in America, I have to say that I saw and heard more about castes and shit in USA than I ever have in New Delhi. It is impolite to ask somebody what their caste is - because the only reason you would want to know is to judge them. So nobody ever asks that question in New Delhi, and to the parts of India that I have been exposed. The only place where it was blatantly on display was when I went to Hardwar to release my grandma's ashes into the river. Apparently, the Pandit who performs the last rites is determined according to you cast. Apart from that one disturbing apparition, I have never had to deal with caste in any form or in anyway in my day to day life in Delhi. What happens in the villages, I couldn't tell you. But then I'm sure the heart of Alabama isn't exactly declaring Diwali a public holiday either.
Second it is an established fact that North Indians - particularly Punjabis and Kashmiris, but not exclusively, are much whiter-looking than the rest. When I say whiter-looking, I'm not just talking about skin colour, but facial features as well. I don't say this with any pride or chauvinism or as though this makes superior in any way, but simple truth. I'm a punjabi who's lived in Delhi most of his life. I found it fucking insulting when I went to America to have white people tell me I don't look Indian. But then when the brown people also said I didn't look Indian, that was the last straw. This could be a reason why so many Punjabis come to your site to find out about their genetics. Maybe we're all bastard children of Englishmen. On the other hand maybe we wandered over from the Caucasus like OTHER CAUCASIANS. Either way, get the f*ck over your "FOB" prejudice. There are 1 billion Indians in India. It just might be possible that whatever you've seen of them is not the whole picture.
And one more thing, if you set up a website showing naked women - you will get a lot of perverts. You set up a website about genetics, you'll get the pervert equivalents there too. This is the Internet. It works a little different than "civil society". And thanks for letting me know about your Germanic girlfriend. Along with other 859 posts telling me, I'll be sure to remember your girlfriend's race and that you won't be lonely on Valentine's day.

Razib,

The uptight brahmins you meet must be so because of the obstacles they have to cross in India. In Tamizh Naadu an official policy of anti-brahmin discrimination has been in place since the '60s. The much feted EV Ramaswamy Naicker social justice icon and 'reformer' (1880-1975) and founder of the Dravida Kazhagam or Dravidian Party in a speech in 1955 asked the brahmins to change or else face the fate of that the Jews did in Nazi Germany.

hm. i didn't know what sardar was (saw the term referenced several times!). didn't know if it as PC or not.

yes, i agree punjabis look more caucasion, though if you follow the genetics, you will note that probably over all the 'informative' loci they are still more brown than west asian. the main issue i have is with people who pester me to reverse the equation and declare they aren't brown.

On the other hand maybe we wandered over from the Caucasus like OTHER CAUCASIANS.

1) very few caucasions are from the caucasus, that region is a people sink, not a source.

2) this paper and this paper for one view.

and yeah, i do mention my gf too much. but hey, it's nice being able to have sex whenever you want. and i don't want people to accuse me of being a racist hypocrite. figure i'd put my chips on the table.

AM, she was born in calcutta, so that's why i said indian, but you are right.

anyway, i really shouldn't have posted what i posted above. should have just left it vague and tried to assert that the center of this weblog would never express the elitism toward gulf browns that "bb" has experienced. my bad.

Ah, you can say 'Sardar', it's not disrespectful.

Phew! Thanks for the validation. I generally tone down 'sardar' with sardarji. Although I must say I am intrigued as to how Sikhs got this name (which as someone pointed out means 'chief' or 'chieftain' or 'leader').

Bazir The Agnostic(BTA) says:

...It is impolite to ask somebody what their caste is...So nobody ever asks that question in New Delhi, and to the parts of India that I have been exposed.

Reading this reminds me of another 'trend' I have observed here in the US. As the commenter mentions, it is considered an offense to ask people their caste. But I recall instances when some 2G folk I barely knew would ask me or my friends what caste we belong to. It was kind of embarassing 'cuz I don't recall encountering such overt displays of the caste game playing out back home.

Of course as BTA says:

What happens in the villages, I couldn't tell you.

And again these are just my experiences not necessarily a norm.

razib_t_a

but hey, it's nice being able to have sex whenever you want.

*chuckles*

I agree that practically no one will ever ask your caste in India. You can run into lot of problems (even legal) there, as here one would here with ethnicity issues. Not to say, caste discrimination is not very rampant in India as a strong under current. In US, I hardly move in cliques, but I will also agree with the observations, like gradinLA and Bazir had.

In villages (limited experience), also nobody talks of caste all the time except in "Bollywood" movies. If I met a villager, we would perhaps share a "lashmi brand" bidi and talk about Amrika and goris, but hell no, caste....who cares?

Sometimes, this board sounds like the Colonel in "House of Sand and Fog".

Kush

razib_t_a says:

...they[Arabs] go there[to India] for organs you know!

Al Mujahid_f_d says:

Battle of the wives in Jordan.

Babloo says:

...since muslims can have upto four wives in India.

My roommate led me to believe that this was an Islamic law and supposedly also holds for Saudis. Maybe someone else here could comment.

Btw, Babloo thanks for the links. Most of the incidents involved old Arab men and minors which seems disturbing and bizarre.

They do?

yes. they go and get kidneys and stuff from poor people. i saw a documentary about this issue, the saudi gov. was trying to convince bedouins that the organs that the saudi gov. was providing (free of charge were just as good as organs from india. but the bedouins were skeptical, they had been getting organs from india for a few decades and were wondering of the saudi gov. was trying to screw them over (they didn't trust the saudi administration and doctors not to mess things up).

also, let me add that i spoke too hastily when i indicted FOBs. i don't think i know how to distinguish people well enough, there's probably ascertainment bias going on. my point was just a rebuttal to "bb" in his perception about the zeitgeist on this weblog. none of the posters, and very few of the commenters, would express the attitudes that he was concerned about. some do ("those people are x, y, z...not our kind, who cares?").

razib_t_a says:

they go and get kidneys and stuff from poor people.

I just saw 'The Island' - didn't know it was about Mumbai?

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Reading my comments I realize that I am probably painting a picture that everything is great back in India as regards caste. I am sure that there are lot of people out there who have fallen on the wrong side of the caste system. And there are some really unfortunate stories that are reported from time to time. But from my experiences(and only from my experiences) I feel(probably naively) that the caste issue is on the decline back in India while I find that is not the case amongst some Indians in the US(again just relating what I have witnessed).

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Finally a big SORRY to Anna for hijacking this thread.

so-and-so sub-caste within so-and-so caste within so-and-so community from so-and-so region in India while we would look on in bewilderment.

Oh yeah. all those sub-sub castes tht turned up on shaadi.com. maheshwaris? who?

punjabis (proud of "looking white")

I know this punjabi FOB here. The guy, in his own words, will only hang out with fairer looking girls, if not white.

I wanted to throw my shoe at him,complete with snow + black salt mix.

But then again, what else can you expect from a guy who says he doesn't mind checking out any girl except hijabis.

"A number of my friends (also from Mumbai) did relate similar incidents with 1.5G/2G people telling them(and me) that they were from so-and-so sub-caste within so-and-so caste within so-and-so community from so-and-so region in India while we would look on in bewilderment."

My guess is that such people have made an effort to understand the culture they are from beyond "we're from India/South Asia/whatever" and at minimum came out with this caste-community-region self-identification, and they are trying to relate to Indian/South Asian/whatever-born people by giving out a self-label they think will be useful. It is perhaps a clumsy attempt to establish common ground.

Combine the "where am I from" imperative with not being raised in a context of somewhat direct experience with caste-based discrimination, and you get such statements.

Aack, a big sorry from me to Anna too for perpetuating this off-topic topic.

WRT some 2G desis being so dang concerned with their caste, I offer this as a potential reason:

Their (our) parents came over in the 60s or 70s, thus they are in many ways still in the mindset of the India of that time. The way that India is today, is light years ahead of the India these parents recreate in their homes in the US. The values, the viewpoints, etc... So perhaps 2G desis have been raised with this antiquated notion of casteism that really makes them throwbacks to the 70s...

Only speculation, feel free to flame on this notion :)

Deepa I agree with you. I think its the fact they are not as focused on how caste is negative bc they are not in India, so they say it more as a way of explaining where they are "from" rather than anything else. although there has to be some notion of its bad effects as well

Punjabis like to think they are a mix of people. Its gotto do with more than color-ism I think, because a Punjabi who denies he's brown is rare

True DD, I've been saying that for years - the reason I feel like I don't belong with the vast majority of British Asians is the antiquated view on most things they brought over 40 years ago. Casteism is just one aspect.

Although, I have to be honest, sometimes I find myself falling back into that mindset too. For example one snooty coconut of a girl in my uni, completely clueless about anything Indian (didn't know the capital) and a real bitch to boot, got on her high horse one day and badmouthed Indians at length. Without even realising, I said:

"Love, no matter how much money Pops has earned, you'll always just be a shopkeeper to me."

It's funny, I was talking to mummy dearest about this just today. She was saying she gets annoyed when people lump her together with other Asian women, in response to someone saying to her, when booking a hospital appointment, "Oh I notice you're Asian, would you like an interpreter?"

Class is the new caste. Criticising someone simply due to an accident of birth is illogical; you have to take that person on their merits. However I am, and will continue to be, stuck up and obnoxious about class. I'm middle class, nothing fancy. But I simply cannot find any common ground between myself and some stereotypical innit desi rudeboy from Southall/Bradford/Oldham/Walsall. There's nothing wrong in that. People (i.e. white people) must realise that Asians come in different classes like anyone else. We're not only a heterogeneous group divided by religions and national identities, perhaps the most important divide is class.

At the end of the day, I think I just like being a snob. Now get out of my way you working class philistines, before I beat you with my gold sceptre!

Bongo

Dont playa hate the innits man.

Joking apart you have to admit that they are actually quite sweet if you just talk to them a little and insist they speak English properly - and the middle clarse coconut of the kind like your Uni friend - now they are in need of a good (verbal) pith taking - seriously, you have to admit, they are proper pompous style.

I knew this coconut Princess - her brother was a gangster and she was the kind that only had white people as friends (why was she talking to me you ask - well I have my charms you see - even ice queens melt at my touch) - and she spent half an hour telling me how ashamed she was of her family, who were crude and had no class - and then told me how she has not spoken to her brother in six months -

"You see, he thinks that all my friends are snobs, while I think that all of his are yobs"

Snobs and Yobs - thats the way it is going.

I don't think the caste factor here is necessarily a big negative in the sense, I haven't come across people who think they are superior for belonging to one caste/sub-caste-[these aren't 2nd gen desis]. I have a Marathi Brahmin friend and they belong to a huge Marathi organisation -with membership from across North America apparently.
More than being superior, it is interaction with someone from your place( since her parents grew up n studied there) in your language and celebrating certain festivals like the Marathi new yr in April.

So I see it as interaction with people who share your culture. As long as you don't consider your culture/caste/subcaste superior or limit interaction to people like yourself, I don't see the harm in such interactions.

coconut princess...now there's an idea.

Whether it's as consciously "out there" or not, Western culture does subscribe to its own caste system, as touched on in Bongsy's post-- the dollar separates "castes" of the West.

Punjabi Boy. Snobs and Yobs eh? Well I know which camp I'll patronise. In this vein, I love the expression 'old money'. "Oh he's from old money, he wouldn't mix with her sort" and so forth. Cracks me up! Makes me think of Scrooge McDuck for some reason.

Jacob - here is a picture of the coconut princess herself.

It's not sardar it's SardarJI (strokes flowing beard)

"because a Punjabi who denies he's brown is rare..."
I was of the impression that Punjabi's especially Jats were convinced that they are Aryans, me I'm a darkie and proud of it !

I was of the impression that Punjabi's especially Jats were convinced that they are Aryans, me I'm a darkie and proud of it !

bravo! if i had a dollar for every single time a well-meaning Punjabi back home in Northern CA said, "oh, you are dark but you are so pretty for a dark girl!"...

gosh, thanks. that makes the insult alllll better. meh.

Anna behti no need for "Fair and Lovely" its cos your dark that your gorgeous ;) (rakish smile)

Gosh I've just realised that I'm a Punjabi and the fair skinned Auntieji is still flabberjusted when I ask her to stay in the sun a little longer for that extra colour ! (thud as tava wielded by Auntieji impacts on uncleji' head)

ya man. My uncle is a doctor in Gizan, Saudi Arabia. He said white doctors get $250,000 but he is from Punjab, India and given only $125,000 for the same job. For a person who went to university for 11 years, he felt he should be paid the higher wage.