August 29, 2005
We are not the enemy.Issues
Well, ain’t this some fabulous reporting from the New York Post (Thanks, Nina):
If you were in Manhattan yesterday, you might have thought an enemy force had taken over the island and severed the East Side from the West.
The invaders were not al Qaeda, but the Pakistani Parade and Festival, which stormed Madison Avenue from 23rd to 41st streets; the Daytop Village Street Festival on Madison from 42nd to 57th; and the Church of the Good Shepherd street fair on Third Avenue from 23rd to 34th.
The occupying armies ate up 45 blocks in the city’s heart from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m., plus time before and after to set up and take down.
I’m consumed by a wrath which makes me want to kick something. An enemy force? A festival which STORMED Madison Ave? Are you kidding me?
This little bit of ignorant commentary is all yours thanks to a Real Estate/Opinion writer named Steve Cuozzo. The title he chose for his piece is awesome:
SLEAZY, STINKY, CHINTZY STREET FESTS ARE MORE FOUL THAN ‘FAIR’
Granted, Cuozzo was referring to three different events while frothing-at-the-ass, but to mindlessly lump in another culture’s Independence Day with a mere street festival wasn’t very bright, considering the purpose of the lumping. Celebrating Pakistani Independence is sleazy, stinky and chintzy? Foul? I’ll tell you what’s foul: sloppy writing, ignorant thinking and pure disrespect.
Perhaps this “journalist” thought he was being snarky; maybe he imagined that his choice of words gave his opinion piece that edgy, blunt, rudeness that naive people include in their stereotypes about the city I love most. Perhaps, he is simply a jackass. Whatever his reasoning or purpose, he is wrong. He is offensive, inappropriate and ignorant. And he does not speak for me, or any of the several hundred New Yorkers I know and love.
Real New Yorkers are just that— real. They’re not jerks taking potshots at a community which contributes plenty to the luminous energy the city marinates in. Immigrant communities from every corner of the globe are exactly what make the big apple taste so addictively extraordinary.
New York’s difference is its strength.
Shame on Steve Cuozzo and shame on the New York Post for publishing such garbage in the first place. I seriously doubt that this paper of no record would have either the inclination or the testicular fortitude to print similar if it were covering the Puerto Rican day or St. Patricks day parade. The fact that the New York Post isn’t respected or taken seriously may be true, but it’s also irrelevant; Cuozzo’s words remain unacceptable.
anna on August 29, 2005 01:59 PM in Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Pakistan is definitely not the flavor of the month (maybe for the last 3 yrs). Thats the price you pay for being a terrorist nation and exporting jihad. To be honest, I was tickled pink to read this commentary. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING that paints Pakistan in a negative light is welcome. And please dont start a flame war on we-are-all-browns. It doesnt work that way. The difference between browns of various hues (is that a pun?) is well known in the US of A.
luminous energy the city marinates in
I am rolling that over my tongue and loving that sentence - great writing - phrase of the week I reckon.
And yeah, what an ignorant racist wanker.
Yeah right thats why Sikhs and Hindus are being attacked by racists in the USA - what a sap you are!
It's been de rigueur among "hip" New Yorkers to snark about street fairs for some time now.
That said, for the guy to lump in the Pakistani independence day festivities is just plain stupid. Mostly he's bitching about standard-issue street fairs which offer Thai food and pashminas and crepes and God knows what else. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Pakistani festival didn't have ... uh, any of that?
As for his pathetic whining about his "hour's drive time" in Midtown - New York has one of the best subway systems in the world. I highly recommend he look into it. Good for the environment too!
The Post doesn't have the delicate sensibilities of other papers when it comes to offending people, though. There was a minor uproar at NYU (my school) when they printed a photograph of an NYU student leaping to her death from a Midtown apartment building. The Post couldn't have given a shit about sensitivity; it sold papers.
I beg to differ.
"The difference between browns of various hues (is that a pun?) is well known in the US of A."
Not from my experience.
What an offensive article!
I am a sap. I like to lick the boots of ignorant white racists. I get on my knees and lick them! Now go and spit on those damn terrorist Pakis over there - I'm not like them - they deserve it - even those Paki children and their mothers - go and lynch them! Not me! I'm OK! I'm with you I'm an Indian yeah!
What would you say when they spit on you? I would laugh if that happened.
Richmond Cabbies
Streets of San Fransisco
Whoops! Those damn Indians were probably just collateral damage eh? You sap!
My opinions are formed from my experiences. And the people I have come across clearly know the differences. I worship this guy and I think this is a relevant article starting from line one.
the Post is long-time reputed to be lowest form of life, where NYC papers are concerned. It's not even fit for dogs to poop on. It's probably the furthest thing from journalism that I've ever seen...
If he hates the way parades and street fairs and the like take up precious outdoor space for their silly notions of fun, why doesn't he head to East Hampton with the rest of the pretentious morons...
Might be OT, but cant get more interesting than this.
The price you pay
But you are a craven and pathetic lickspittle to racists arent you? I detest violence but you have to admit, there would be a certain morbid humour if you were verbally abused and spat on by a racist out to batter some brown Muslim look-a-like, wouldnt there? I mean, I would find that funny, even though I am a pacifist, it would have a kind of cruel justice wouldnt it? Because you are a bootlicker and craven lickspittle to low racism arent you?
Punjabi Boy, could you get a trifle less personal? Your intolerance is about as much as the nut heads here beating up people and you call yourself a pacifist. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and as I said before, these opinions are formed by personal experiences. It is disgusting that people get beaten up at all. But among the desi population of more a million +, are there more than a dozen incidents per year? Statistically is that too much? Please dont say I condone violence against muslims or anything. But, u can be beaten up in the US for being black, white, latino, brown, gay or for no reason. So, its not about just being brown. What we need is a constant eduction to make all Americans understand the difference between these 2 vastly different nations.
The Price You Pay: The worship of a nutjob like Rajeev Srinivasan only calls into questions your own mental competence
Anna: Of course we're the enemy. As long as blather like this is in the mainstream press, the fight hasn't ended.
Might be OT, but cant get more interesting than this
Shaved Rajeev Srinivasan + Blond Wig= Ann Coulter.
Please just stop for all our sakes. I can only handle so much jingoism in one day.
The price you pay
Why should I get less personal you lickspittle? In a post about a racist article about Pakistanis you have an orgasm of glee at the stereotyping and viciousness of it then get on your pulpit and pray for more hatred to fall onto Pakistanis heads? Whats up lickspittle?
And you have to admit, it would be kind of funny, in a sick and unpleasent way, if a redneck beat you up for being a Pakistani Muslim, wouldnt it?
desiDancer, you put it perfectly. Who even reads NYPost. Infact I feel that Sepia Mutiny, referring to something they write, lowers SM standards, and gives credibility to NYPost.
As for the other commentators, who wanna bash Pakistan...the problem that i see is that the white racist trash, is so dumb in the brain...like the writer of the article, that it will be difficult for them to differentiate between pakistani and indian. And when they beat your ass black, I hope SM runs that as an update to this article.
Well, Rajeev's articles are amongst the most popular in Rediff, esp. among the expats. He says things openly which most Indians discuss over dinner in the safe confines of their homes. So, if you call him racist, rabid or a cross-dressing Ann Coulter, so be it. Just so you know, you are throwing those epithets on most Indians too.
there are substantive differences between pakistan and india.
there are substantive differences between non-muslims and muslims.
there are substantive differences between non-muslims and muslims in the west.
there are many people who can't tell the difference between non-muslims and muslims.
a significant subset of these people noted above are of somewhat violent inclination and will use political reasoning to justify plain old thuggishness.
there are multiple issues at work here, and i suspect this thread will conflate them. i don't see why there has be a uber-brown identity and even amity between various groups, differences are often real. that being said, as the moderate victim of racist attacks (don't worry, i kicked ass) and knowing others in predominantly white and black* areas who were attacked, i can attest that when it comes to violence (as opposed to verbal intimidation) there really isn't much time to distinguish yourself from other types of browns (ie; the lecture that lovin's uncle or whoever gave to some men who were trying to verbally intimidate him in jefferson city). so, when it comes to politics, i think the price you pay has a valid point.** when it comes to interpersonal violence, well, there isn't much of a point.
i think there are plenty of other premutations in there. perhaps people will be specific as to the context of alliances and educational measures....
* being mugged and called a "raghead" by blacks youth is i think an attack that can be go under motivated-by-greed and abetted by racism bin.
** as some on this blog have noted muslims regularly will distance themselves from hindus when christians start to make fun of their elephant gods and what not. similarly, non-muslims should feel free to distinguish themselves from islamic terrorists. that being said, on the personal leve of interaction with confirmed racists this is all really a moot point, a wog and a pandey nigger are really no different.
Ok here's a quote from the article you linked to:
HAHAHA. So there is no such thing as South Asian culture, but there is an "Indic" Hindu-Buddhist-Jain-Sikh culture? That is hilarious.
I've got your Indic right here.
It was his glee and orgsamic rapture at Pakistanis being vilified that make him spineless and 'orrible.
The Muslim cultures of Pakistan and Bangladesh are worlds apart from the composite Indic (Hindu-Buddhist-Jain-Sikh) culture of India.
i think we need to be careful about getting into an either-or. frankly, i know many bangladeshis and pakistanis who perceive themselves to be very different from indians, but, i have also seen a lebanese american muslim during eid-al-fatir joke to some pakistani muslims that he can't ever tell the difference between indians and pakistans, they cook the same (the men were not amused).
in any case, i think that the muslim cultures of south asian and the non-muslim cultures (operationally hindu) are going to be more different in the future than in the past as the peasant milieu dissolves into a more gritty urban atomistic reality. i see more deobandi than sufi islam in the future, and i see more "neo-orthodox" hinduism. of course, hopefully beyond the tunnel of intolerance there will be the panacea of modernization and genuine secularism.
p.s. many of my friends in high school would talk about how someone was "catholic" and not "christian." this is the reason that i'm skeptical as to how far educating the public will really go as regards the hindu vs. muslim different.... (i stopped telling people that my family was muslim after they asked me if they worshipped cows a long time ago, saying you were muslim doesn't automatically refute cow-worship to most people below an IQ of 100).
p.s. and yes, i know that hindus don't worship cows. but i once saw a friend of mine in college trying to explain how hindus respect/revere the cow to a chinese american friend, and i saw that these distinctions are really pretty irrelevant to non-browns. ms. chen clearly thought ms. patel worshipped cows after the conversation.
razib
No need for the big dissertation - subtlety isnt what is on this guys mind - he is just rubbing his hands with glee because Pakistanis got hated on and vilified - it made him happy and he got excited and overjoyed about it - straight up case of a spineless bigot rejoicing at hatred being splattered about.
...enemy force...The invaders...al Qaeda,...stormed...The occupying armies ate up the citys heart...
No plunder, pillage, massacre, rape, and slaughter of innocents?
I'm a lifetime New Yorker. The Post is not a source of responsible journalism. It is successful carnivalia.
Sorry to see a celebration, a fun thing portrayed this way.
Sorry punjabi boy. The phrase you cited is an energetic miss. A good editor would at least raise an eyebrow and probably strike this (borderline?) mixed-metaphor.
No need for the big dissertation - subtlety isnt what is on this guys mind - he is just rubbing his hands with glee because Pakistanis got hated on and vilified - it made him happy and he got excited and overjoyed about it - straight up case of a spineless bigot rejoicing at hatred being splattered about.
sure, sure, but i'm sure not non-primitives will show up with more nuanced views. though i wonder, has SM ever IP banned someone?
Christopher John
What is a borderline mixed metaphor?
And the image of a city marinating in inchoate luminous energy is a lush one and its possible overstretch and misstep suggests to me the mess and miscegenation of a city like New York - after all NYC is that imprecise and imperfect cultural mix that has a tone and note all of its own, right?
No strike - keep it in - I am going to steal it to describe London one day ;-)
The Price you Pay: this is the tripe that your hero publishes.
He is one to call out on literary style. That first sentence is syntactically flawed. And we are not even talking about the foaming-at-the-mouth rabidity of the insubstantiated allegations therein. Not that I am a big supported of the Communist Party of India, or anywhere else, for that matter. But atleast, they are the ones who are more or less on the ball with facts compared to neo-conmen such as Srinivasan.Ignoring the gratuitous (and redundant) Latin for a bit, this conclusion demonstrates the tenous grip that Srinivasan has on reality.
In fact, I recommend that the GoI puts him in a three-piece suit and sends him across to negotiate the peace process in Pakistan and then outsource him to the West Bank.
Anna, the NY Post is also known in some circles as a 'squalid little rag'.
i know that this is par-for-the-post, but what's the comparable coverage of other ethnic-nationality based holidays?
More from Srinivasan:
If he'd gone to school or college in Delhi, he'd have found out that he has very little in common with the average Delhi-wallah too. During the mandatory hazing rituals at college, he'd be kicked in the stomach and called a 'maddu' while the rest of the guys in his dorm did impressions of him licking thair-saadham (yoghurt-rice) off his elbows.
Bigotry is bigotry and has to be opposed. My feelings:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
Good grief, I thought this was a spoof when I started reading. Shocking to say the least, unbelievable the subs let this fly. Today was the Notting Hill Carnival down my way, now THAT'S storming. An all-time low of 80 arrests today! I love carnival, great stuff.
PB, you really like that sentence? I think it's reflective of the hack's sloppiness; ending a sentence with a preposition.
I know this is waywardly off-topic, but Sania Mirza just won, yay! Or w00t as you weirdos like to say ;) Was watching the match (that's called hard revising), not that easy for her.
Is it wrong that I find Sania rather hot in a sweaty kind of way? I never thought she was any great shakes until today, suddenly her bouncing, her metalwork and her eyes have mesmerised me. I think it's because she's got a little more colour in her cheeks. I hope SOMEBODY understands my attraction to her. Punjabi Boy, you still there?
Whoops. I've spotted my mistake. This is what comes from speed-reading.
It's OK Anna, I'll get my coat.
LoL
Bongo were you smoking some of that Jamaican doodah down in Notting Hill tonight?
ToI says she lost, although she did become richer by $12k. Maybe she won after all.
Ms: Sania Mirza just won the first round of the US open. That article you refer to is discussing something else, which happened two days before the US Open (read the first paragraph more closely).
US Open my friend ms. The big thing, Flushing Meadows, lots of people, balls, big men, bigger women...you know.
Anna, midway through reading about irregular periods I became wracked with guilt. I didn't mean to be rude - I think it's rather crass to be pedantic about people's grammar in blogs. I thought PB was quoting the Post and I was trying to be snarky back at the journo.
PB. Whilst the Bong in my name refers to my heritage, I also chose it for its double meaning. Pass the dutchy pon de left hand siiide...
The elements in the comparison don't seem to match. Marination is a method (I'm no cooking expert!)of preparing meats (non-meats??)in sauces or fats, etc. Luminous energy can be many things (a radiation, a source of light, a scene of vital and humming exchanges, etc.)but it is probably not a cooking preparation.
The two elements are not compatible.
The instance is borderline because of the allowance (in the network of conceits) for a marinade to absorb heat/energy and then transfer it elsewhere.
Your argument vis-a-vis suggestiveness has more merit and charm than the original.
But I'm almost sure I was wrong with carnivalia. Shouldn't it be carnivalnalia?
The price you pay
So now entire populations can be held accountable for the policies pursued by martial dictators? I say we stop sending food to North Korea, they surely deserve to starve.
Who is Sania's opponent in the second round ?
According to the draw board on the ny times website, it says Maria Elena Camerin of Italy will be Sania's second-round opponent.
But that is why it works - because of the incongruity - it startles and makes you think.
Oh thanks! :-)
"So now entire populations can be held accountable for the policies pursued by martial dictators? I say we stop sending food to North Korea, they surely deserve to starve."
>>Yes the entire population(majority atleast) should be hold responsible because it wasnt only the martial dictators who followed the ideology of Jihad. Pakistan was ruled by democratically elected goverenments during major part of 90's and none of the leader elected by public stopped that policy.
Okay, so this is the necessary imperfection needed to meet Leonardo's definition of perfect beauty; an incongruity that, ahem, indeed emanates force from its flaw.
Perhaps it is also an Amfortas wound...
...And you have won a Pyrrhic victory.
How can one carry on against such a loyal champion? I concede to you, oh noble knight.
Vick
You surely underestimate the effects of institutionalization. You also seem to think that rigged elections equal a democracy. In addition, you assume that "democratic" civilian governments in Pakistan have some sort of control over military and intelligence activities. Would you kindly tell me what happened to the last 2 "democratically" elected civilian leaders who disagreed with a Chief of Army Staff over a core issue?
Holding populations en masse responsible for certain negative actions is a dangerous course of action to take and -- if anyone needed reminding -- it's the same twisted logic OBL and his cohorts have been using to justify their actions. People are only responsible for their own individual crimes/sins; let's not fall into the trap of "guilt by association" or "collective responsibility", both of which are unfortunately common Indian/South Asian tendencies. In any case, the original article from the Post is disgusting in its bigotry and its demonisation of an entire community.
Also, I'm finding myself agreeing with Razib's views in his "dissertations"; however, considering that until 9/11 at least (and certainly until 7/7), most Indians here in the UK had viewed British Pakistanis as allies (in the ethnic sense if not necessarily the religious sense) because we were originally more-or-less from the same part of the world, had more common cultural frame of references than we did with anyone else, and had grown up facing the same kind of cultural-clash and racism issues as each other during our lives here in the UK....Well, personally I think it's an extremely tragic situation that things have now developed to the extent that, in some ways, it is indeed sometimes necessary for Indians to disassociate themselves from their Pakistani cousins.
I absolutely hate the fact that this has happened. I hate the fact that many British Muslims have, in turn, decided to dissociate themselves from any sense of kinship with Indians here, because they view us as part of the "infidel enemy". I hate the fact that this has thrown a spotlight on Islam and Islamic history and is now uncovering religious doctrines and precedents both sanctioning the actions of the extremists and demonising them in the eyes of the rest of the world; and yes I know that, as people of Indian origin, we know all about this already (as the last 1000 years of Indian history indicate), but I'm so sick of the very notion of hatred towards (and between) religious and ethnic groups, and the fact that innocent Muslims are also having to suffer because of the actions & mindsets of their more psychopathic brethren, and that the rest of us are also all being dragged into this because so many people can't tell the difference between us.
And I absolutely hate the fact that the apocalyptic, megalomaniacal fantasies of the extremists -- tragically, sanctioned by some interpretations of their religion -- is not only now raising hell on a global scale but, if it gets any worse, will trigger retaliatory actions by more powerful nations - especially the US - who are being sorely underestimated by the jihadists. Damn them for their arrogance, damn them for their suicidal stupidity, and damn them for the hell they are putting their more moderate co-religionists through. I have no sympathy for the religious ideologies endorsing this behaviour, but viewing them as our fellow human beings I find it dismaying and incredibly tragic that their blind egotism and self-righteousness has triggered a sequence of events -- in the military, the political, the media, and the social spheres -- which, if worst comes to worst, has the potential to end so terribly for everyone concerned.
alybaba,
How can election be rigged if everytime the incumbent lost? The goverment changed in Pakistan after every election and that would suggest that there was some election werent rigged as the opposition cant do it.
BTW every survey done in Pakistan after Musharaff captured the power suggested that he was/is quite popular with mass. India was also ruled by a dictator for few years once. But public fought against her and won the democracy back. I never seen/heard Pakistani doing that. So shouldnt be they held responsible for the terrorism supported by their goverment all over the world.
Do you reckon Indians should be held responsible for the genocidal massacres of children, the gang rapes of women, and the burning and slaughter of innocent men, that have taken place in India over the last few decades in various pogroms, in light of the perpetrators of the pogroms being elected to parliament and staying free? So they are essentially sanctified by the mob for their crimes?
I'm ready to blame every Pakistani without discrimination, provided you are ready to accept responibility for every genocidal massacre carried out in "democractic" India - are you ready for it?
It makes about as much sense as the collective guilt you prescribe for Pakistanis.
I'll leave it to Churchill to defend me:
On the subject of ending sentences with prepositions, people often recount a story involving Winston Churchill. When an editor dared to change a sentence of Churchill's that appeared to end inappropriately with a preposition, Churchill responded by writing to the editor,
"This is the kind of impertinence up with which I shall not put."
His purpose, of course, was to illustrate the awkwardness that can result from rigid adherence to the notion that prepositions at the end of sentences are always incorrect.
;)
A friend of mine, who was born in Bangalore, and is Muslim, goes around claiming to be Pakistani and gets offended when I correct him. Of course, I am just some silly South African who never knew that people have issues about the differences between being Indian and Pakistani. We grew up celebrating all festivals and it was always a good excuse to get the day off from school for Diwali or Eid to stuff our faces with all the good food. We were all just brown. Lets face it we all know some nasty jokes about Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims,(I know some real good zingers and so do YOU) and its okay to poke at each other SOMETIMES, but all brown people should stand up for each other, if we dont who will.
I'm ready to blame every Pakistani without discrimination, provided you are ready to accept responibility for every genocidal massacre carried out in "democractic" India - are you ready for it?
>>Can you tell us any instance when Indian govt supported terrorism against any other country? And if it does yes the blame will fall on the Indians who elected that govt.
You are somehow indicating that The Indian public/media/judiciary kept quiet whenever any massacre of Indians happen inside India. yes it had happened that those who did it got away with it but it was more because their deeds couldnt be proven.
You wouldnt find rallies being organized in India to calibrate release of a dreaded terrorist like Maulana Massod Azhar(The chief of lashkar-e-Taiba released by India in exchanged of high jacked plane in kandhar).
The whole USA went crazy when they saw bunch of kids celebrating in Arab world the events happened on 9/11. We Indians are used to seeing Pakistani(in large number) do the same for years.
Even USA govt know that Pakistan is sheltering Dawood Ibrahim - The guy responsible for Bombay bomb blasts in early 90's when hundreds were killed.
but all brown people should stand up for each other, if we dont who will
yes non-indian brownies should do whatever they want to. but please keep us Indians out this please.
Thank You.
You are somehow indicating that The Indian public/media/judiciary kept quiet whenever any massacre of Indians happen inside India. yes it had happened that those who did it got away with it but it was more because their deeds couldnt be proven.
Yes, Sajjan Kumar is sitting in jail right now and Narender Modi is living a life of shame in political exile.
Vick,
Do you or do you not hold the population of Delhi accountable for electing Sajjan Kumar when he clearly led mobs and everybody knows that too.
Sajjan Kumar is not in Jail.
RC,
Can you spell S-A-R-C-A-S-M.
Well, I updated you on Sania Mirza's progress yesterday. Today I was watching a bit of Rajeev Ram from Indiana. 21 years old and now out of the US Open I'm afraid.
ALmd,
I missed your sarcasm (and with my relatively low english skills sometimes I may actually not know a spelling :-)) )
Mujahid,
>>Is Delhi in any other country? Did Sajjan Kumar got a chance to get elected for almost 20 yrs? Did HKL Bhagat ever get a chance to make a come back in Delhi politics? And yes whatever they did in 84 was institutionalized govt policy for decades, supported by several democratically elected governments of different parties.
Recently i heard that Information minister of Pakistan resigned after it was claimed by Kashmiri terrorists that he arranged terrorist training camps (the type you see in CNN clips) for a long time in 90's. I have heard that Pakistani public has forced Paki government to set up a commission to look into this matter.
Did Paki media went after Mian Shareef or Mohtarma Bhutto to openly supporting terrorists in India. Oh i forgot those were Mujahids. They were just getting rid this earth off infidel. Indian media, public and judiciary on the other hand kept quiet when riots happened in Gujrat. Media even suggested that same pogrom should be started on the eastern borders of India and public immediately followed.
I also heard that a large number of Pakistanis are holding rallies against the govt to send criminals like Maulana Masood Azhar(whose brothers/friends killed an Indian honeymooner on that high jacked flight in Kandhar) and Dawood Ibrahim. One of Pakistan's most respected cricketer recently arranged his Son's marriage to the daughter of same esteemed guest of Pakistan. The daughter of this esteemed guest was living in Pakistan though her daddy is living in hole (the Saddam Hussain type) inside Musharrafs residence. Yesterday it was claimed by Pakistani foreign ministry that this hole isnt part of Pakistani territory as its 10 yards under the earth.
RC,
I try to be funny and sarcastic but as you can see, its not working :(
Vick,
As you never answered my question, I am going to ask you the question again.
Do you or do you not hold the population of Delhi accountable for electing Sajjan Kumar when he clearly led mobs and everybody knows that too.
Mujahid,
Yes if the population of Delhi knew that Sajjan was envolved in the massacre of innocent people they should be ashamed of electing him. And should take responsibilty if he uses his position to get involved in such things again. When you elect monsters you should be prepared for the consequences.
So Pakistanis are responsible for sending Mujahideens all over the world to kill innocents?
Naah i think that has always been good deed. Killing infidels(little % of non-infidel included) is anyway not such a big crime.
Yes if the population of Delhi knew that Sajjan was envolved in the massacre of innocent people they should be ashamed of electing him
This is common knowledge in Delhi.
I guess now you will apply the standard to citizens of Delhi that you apply to the Pakistani population for electing Musharraf and will cheer the berating of the citizens of Delhi just like you cheer the berating of Pakistanis.
You are of course going to be tickled pink when Delhi is berated because you are (I hope) consistent.
However if you see the folly of your vile ways, you will realize that you were wrong to be tickled pink by the hate directed towards Pakistani Americans.
I am not gonna be tickled if someone accuses me for electing Sajjan, I am ready to take responsibility of my acts and his acts as the MP. And if that means that other Indians (It cant be Others) point finger at me for electing a monster i wouldnt look for excuses. The responsibility of actions committed by democratically elected leaders should be shared by those who elect them.
And you need to read my posts again, this time little more carefully. I never claimed that Pakistanis elected Musharaff because they didnt. But they elected Mian Shareef and Mohtarma Bhutto several times in 80s and 90's. And both of them in each of their tenure supported Mujahideens killing innocent Indians fully. I didnt see any protest against this policy of terror coming from Pakis.
And you need to read my posts again, this time little more carefully. I never claimed that Pakistanis elected Musharaff because they didnt. But they elected Mian Shareef and Mohtarma Bhutto several times in 80s and 90's.
I know and I was alluding to the fact that Mian Shareef was elected democratically and so was Sajjan Kumar.
You cheer the berating of Pakistanis for electing Mian Shareef and I am presuming that you will cheer the berating of the citizens of Delhi for electing Sajjan Kumar.
>> No you didt know. You were talking about Mushraff in the last post whose crimes cant be passed on to the Pakis.
And about Sajjan and Shareef. Sajjan's Crimes were not continued by the next guy who won from Outer Delhi. They were not institutionalized. Sajjan still had to face the music, and still paying for it. His political career went down hill after 84. And Mian Shareef's career went down because he pulled out terrorist and Paki army from the Kargil.
I dont expect you to see the difference but it was necessary to point it out for others.
No you didt know. You were talking about Mushraff in the last post whose crimes cant be passed on to the Pakis.
Thats correct. I did mention Musharraf. However the point is still valid when we compare Sajjan Kumar with Mian Shareef.
do any of our new york mutineers (still) read the Post? i'm wondering if there is any reaction to Cuozzo's article, perhaps via letters to the editor? i skimmed the NYP today, didn't see anything. but i didn't get to see yesterday's...
This is exactly the kind of logic and reasoning used by Osama bin Laden to justify 9/11, along with his continued promotion of attacks on Western civilians and nations. Practically word-for-word.
Not everyone who votes for a particular leader necessarily agrees with all his policies or all his actions once he is in office. And not everyone who is a citizen of a particular region -- whether the United States, Delhi, or anywhere else -- will necessarily have voted for the leader they ended up with. As I keep saying, "collective responsibility" is a dangerous concept.
So is the idea of "responsibility by default" -- ie. "You live in a democractic region and didn't take any action to prevent your leader from carrying out such-and-such offensive action and/or you didn't remove him from office, and therefore you have to pay the price as much as those who are directly responsible for the aforementioned offensive actions".
I cant be bothered to debate with someone so half witted and clueless. Read my post again and you might learn something. Dont be a bigot.
Vick stated
Seen some emotional resistance to that point. Some data points.
My belief - My stance is that I am accountable for my representative. In discharging my responsibilities I promise to be up to date on the current affairs and take remedial action if needed. This is an idealist notion. Here's the first flaw in the argument, in a winner take all type election - my accountability would evaporate should my candidate lose - a scenario...
here's a debate on a path to resolution.Other flaws ... the decline in the quality of debate among the elected representatives and our ability to receive and process the debate.
The net of it is - if you want to take a swing at me - I agree with what Vick said.
I cant be bothered to debate with someone so half witted and clueless.
>>I dont post unrelated stuff or try to turn a debate on international terrorism into law and order problems inside the boundary of a country. The fact is crimes you mentioned were committed by individuals from one party. They were not carried on by Governments of different parties for several years.
In most of the cases you mention their were protest for years against such action by ordinary citizens and media. Those who committed such crimes paid the price(yeah i know they didnt go to jail but their political career never took off). In case of your Mujahideen Brown brothers, NO ONE protest when Mian Shareef was removed from power because he pulled back paki terrorist and army from Kargil.
You are not gonna see the point. But expecting you to stop name calling is also too much to ask?
Jai Singh,
Not everyone who votes for a particular leader necessarily agrees with all his policies or all his actions once he is in office.
>>Sure you are not gonna support all the policies of your leader. But supporting terrorism isnt a ignorable policy unless somewhere deep down you too feel that killing infidel is no big deal. And support to terror against India went on for almost two decades under all democratically govt of Pakistan.
And whats your defense against the celebration that went on in Pakiland for months when India released Maulana Masood Azhar(After his collegues killed an Indian honeymooner on high jacked flight to Kandhar)? These rallies were specially organized to celebrate those events and a large number(yes thousands in several cities) of Pakistanis attended them knowing fully well what it was.
Support for Jihad in Pakistani society is quite well documented.
Vick
You are a bigot. Your vision of collective responsibility is a form of bigotry and your response to the point about the genocide carried out by 'democractically' elected Indian politicians sinks your boat - you have to wriggle and shuffle the parameters of what qualifies for collective guilt along your own lines - thats fine - just 'fess up that you are a bigot and get on with it - dont struggle to appear all righteous about it.
This collective responsibility is a dangerous argument.
By that logic most on this board who probably did not vote for Bush, can be called "responsible" for the imperial project of America in Iraq and upwards of 100 thousand deaths of civilians in Iraq.
The words "NY Post" and "sensitivity" should not be used in the same sentence.
But then, I just did.
M. Nam
exactly. i did not vote for shrub, nor did i support the war in iraq. it's not fair to condemn entire populations, willy-nilly.
frankly i thought the first time someone raised the point that OBL thinks with a similarly twisted, "you are all guilty, you all must die!" logic, THAT would've stopped this part of the discussion cold. i'm amazed.
OK. Since I started it all, let me try to finish it up. I have nothing against muslims...I have nothing against ordinary pakistanis. My "orgasmic delight" is restricted to the bad publicity Pakistan gets/keeps getting. Why? For far too long India has had a hypenated relation with its western neighbor and we were all reduced to a wannabe regional power. Now, things are changing. But, it is still a zero-sum game between India and Pakistan. India has been struggling for a long time to get the world attention on Pakistani terrorism. But, when jihadists hit the their own backyards, the west started taking notice.
Now, they say that maybe what India kept screaming for decades is right. The epicenter for terrorism is Pakistan and the it is duly reported in the Western media. That is what I want...as much negative publicity as possible for them. If Pakistan talks anymore of "Hindu oppression" in Kashmir in the UN, the western diplomats are just going to switch off their headphones coz they dont believe it anymore coz Pakistan is getting too much negative publicity in the media and all these influence the american and european thought. That is exactly what I want.
I am talking in terms of policy not the man on the stree. These policy decisions will trickle down to real tangible benefits for India in the future. Just like this for example.
Pakistan was founded on the concept of hatred and they will try to bleed us with a thousand cuts. And contrary to what you might want to think, the aam junta in Pakistan HATES India and the converse is not true. But, still I am NOT saying I have anything with the Pakistani people - its just that I want Pakistan derided as much as possible in the policy level.
Vick,
Thank you for your reply. I think the fundamental problem we are having here is the fact that you appear to agree with the concept of "collective guilt", ie. that entire groups are responsible for certain actions purely because they share some affiliation with the guilty party (whether it's nationality, religion, ethnicity, or anything else).
I think I understand what you're trying to say; possibly the problem isn't entirely your viewpoint but -- and I'm saying this with all due respect -- the words you are choosing to articulate your position.
Collective guilt is a very dangerous concept, as I've said before. It is reasonable to say (for example) "All members of Al-Qaeda have some grievance against the West and non-Muslims, and are basing or justifying this on their interpretation of their religion". However, it is not correct for someone to say "Muslims all hate Westerners or non-Muslims". The differentiator is the factor of precision regarding who one is accusing. I hope you can understand the point I'm trying to make here.
There are presently approximately 162 million people living in Pakistan. One cannot say with any certainty that "all" of them support jihad, or that "all" of them hate India, and so on. Several thousand protestors here and there are not necessarily representative of the millions who are not present. To give you a similar example, it was recently estimated (after a UK-wide survey) that approx. 6% of the British Muslim population supports the actions of the recent London bombers. That's 100,000 people, as the British Muslim population currently stands at 1.3 million. However, it would be incorrect for someone to say "British Muslims support jihad against the West, look how many of them agreed with the recent bombings" -- because you're ignoring the 94% of their community here who apparently do not support this.
Again, I hope you can understand the analogy I'm trying to draw here. And again, blaming the populace equally for the actions of their democratically-elected leaders (or non-elected, in the case of Al-Qaeda and much of Pakistan's history to date) is exactly the same logic as that which is currently being used by Osama bin Laden -- ie. the fact that we didn't use violent revolution to prevent our Western leaders from stationing troops in Saudi Arabia or from waging 2 wars against Iraq, along with the war in Afghanistan etc, means that we all deserve to be blamed for their actions and deserve to be attacked via 9/11, 7/7 etc, despite being civilian non-combatants and (mostly) not being politicians.
Likewise, some chap on here a while ago said he was pleased about the London bombings hit near me because I was to blame for the war in Iraq, simply as I am a Briton. Anyway, I think all's been said.
Jai Singh,
51% of Pakistanis support Bin Laden according to PEW global attitude survery.
Unfavorable views of Jews by country:
Turkey 60%
Pakistan 74%
Indonesia 76%
Lebanon 99%
Jordan 100%
Morocco 88%
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=809
tef,
Hitler is the 3rd most popular leader in India.
Are all Indians Nazis ?
Mujahid - The Pew poll is conducted by a well respected oragization in a scientific way. Straw polls sayin "Hitler rocks" do not count. I was amazed at the data from Tef's link. At least in secular thought India is on par with Western countries.
No not all Indians are Nazis. But some I am sure are.
Could you please provide a link to your source about Hitler being the third most popular leader.
thanks.
The Indian college educated elites do seem to idolize Hitler
"In a December 2002 poll in the Times of India, 400 students from Indias most prestigious colleges were asked to select the ideal leader India needs most. Independence leader and spiritual icon Mahatma Gandhi led with 23 percent. Current Prime Minister Vajpayee finished second with 20 percent. In third place, with 17 percent, was Adolf Hitler"
http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-02/20d'souza_.cfm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1658/is_200310/ai_n9171786
http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=2951
http://www.harpers.org/HarpersIndex2003-09.html
Just as I thought. Here is the link for Mujahid's 'fact'. As you can all see, the poll was conducted by lo bnd behold "The Times of India" - India's top rag. We all know how scientific they can get. I dont think they will think twice of fudging the data just for some spicy news. And even then some points to consider:
1) It was a poll done only on college students.
2) College students are all in the "boiling blood" phase of their life, when they want to go out and do something and set right the country - mostly with the help of a powerful leader. Bose and Hitler are always staple for this thought.
By the time, they are in their 30s they think with more clarity. Come on we have all been through this phase.
And even then, quoting the article "Hitler represented discipline, efficiency and nationalism to the students" not anti-semitism.
Well that would make 17% of Indians nazis then.
Although, I give you PEW, and you give me multiple sources all quoting the TOI.
But I do believe there is fascist element in India.
the price you pay,
India will never become a global player as long as Indians like you continue to obsess over Pakistan and measure yourself against a tiny state heading for bankruptcy.
I frankly dont care about Pakistan and the decay in their society either.
It is amusing though to see you and your other Indian patriots live your lives comparing your country to Pakistan.
Fascist element can be expeceted to exist in all societies at lesser or greater percentage. It would not be proper if we use "Hitler" as a litmus test of "fascism".
I don't think age of the those surveyed in the TOI poll should be used as an excuse. You ought to know better by 18.
" And even then, quoting the article "Hitler represented discipline, efficiency and nationalism to the students" not anti-semitism."
I think quoting Hitler for discipline, etc. is unfortunate and shows lack of knowledge of history in its entirety by these college students. Have you met an average Indian student ?.......they are pretty clueless.
However, India is not at all anti-semitic, all through the ages.
TOI.......They just want masala news, that's all.
That is also true that India should stop obsessing about Pakistan, period.
Too true. India should be competing with China, who gives a toss about a backwater like Pakistan? Gurcharan Das said he counted the number of mentions Pakistan gets in daily newspapers compared to China. Pak outnumbered China 8:1. It's an obsession that has to be shaken.
In France, almost 20% of the population voted for Jean-Marie Le Pen.
Jörg Haider's party is sitting in the Parliament in Austria.
Pim Fortuyn before he was killed was on the rise in Holland.
BNP actually won some council seats in Britain.
Fascism is on the march around the world.
Point taken re: economics, but not re: security. The terrorists who attacked the Indian Parliament a couple of years ago weren't trained in China.
Al Mujahid,
I am not sure if that remark about "indian patriots" was meant for me. But if it was here is my reponse.
I care about Pakistan. You know seeing how we are all South Asian and all.
Seriously, I would like to see Pakistan do better. And India too. For the record the fascist views of "elite" students in India are very worrying. You would think they would have more enlightened views.
Understand that the indian history books label Hilter as a plain Bad Guy. Period. They do not delve into any detail on the atrocities commited by him, or the sufferings of the Jewish community, as is dont so by text books in the west. As a result the Hitler reference is more synonomous with that of a dictator (which some Indians feel India needs) then any sort of support for any of his attrocities.
Correction:
...as is done so by text books...
I am not sure if that remark about "indian patriots" was meant for me. But if it was here is my reponse.
No, it was not.
I would agree with Bula Bula Bi: most Indian textbooks condemn Hitler, but don't present anything like an in-depth sense of the horrors associated with Nazism. This is not to deny that fascism has plenty of adherents in India.
I would disagree with tef's suggestion that one would expect the better educated to have more enlightened views. This presupposes that the LESS-well educated/elite may in any case be expected to have fascistic views. But in fact the opposite is the case: the modernist manias for order, efficiency, and national greatness (conceptualized as a kind of uber-manhood) at any cost are in fact the sorts of views that have often, not just in India, attracted people from the educated classes who are materially better off than most of the population. This was true of post-World War I European fascist movements too (the intellectual backbone for these was quite educated and accomplished; the shocktroops of course were not); this was true of India during Indira Gandhi's Emergency too (one is far more likely to find "educated" people justifying Sanjay Gandhi's excesses during the priod than "uneducated" people; and let's not forget the bulk of the opposition to the Emergency came from India's great unwashed, NOT from its professional and bureaucratic and industrial classes who were only too happy to have trains run on time, strikes banned, unions smashed, slums cleared, and uneducated people sterilized). From my own travels in Pakistan (on a different but not entirely unrelated note), I find it interesting that the most pro-military rule people I meet tend to be the well-heeled; their drivers, gardeners, and cleaners tend to prefer this or that political party (even though the standard justification for military rule in Pakistan is that the elected politicians have improverished the people, who are apparently too stupid to know better).
I think the fundamental problem we are having here is the fact that you appear to agree with the concept of "collective guilt", ie. that entire groups are responsible for certain actions purely because they share some affiliation with the guilty party (whether it's nationality, religion, ethnicity, or anything else).
No you got it wrong. I am not saying that a ethinic group should take responsibility of the crime commited by some from the same ethnicity.
The group didnt elect these guys and hence isnt responsible for their action. But if you elect goverenments which for a long period(say more than 25 yrs) support terrorism, And you never ever protest against it, Then i do feel some responsibility lie at your door. I hope i am making myself clear enough here. This place is filled with brown bigots who cant get another point of view and will resort to name calling.
Jai Singh,
Also read about my first post on this topic. I never said all Pakis support Jihad against India. I said a majority of them do as without majority's support governments cant be found.
Its not 6 or 10 % of the population but much higher. Those who are opposed to Jihadi policy are very small in number otherwise their would have been protests against the actions of past govt. of Pakistan. Their have been protests against the actions of Sajjan Kumar and Narendra Modi in India. I didnt see something like that happening in Pakiland.
Now if Brownies here wanna keep their eyes close, thats fine. Indians wouldnt do that. And yes negative press to Pakistan is in benefit to India. Next time there is a US govt sending millions Pakistan's way Americans may ask question why thats happening.
Umair,
I do agree with you that uber-nationalist views tend be more prevalent among the upper middle class. Their economic class does not surprise me. I am shocked by the views they hold; even after the education theyve received.
> The difference between browns of
> various hues (is that a pun?) is
> well known in the US of A
Riiiiight. As opposed to the chromatically challenged UK where brown equals Paki.
If the British gangster movie "Layer Cake" was based in the US, the brown character would have been referred to as a "slimy North Indian member of the Khalsa order" (instead of a "slimy Paki raghead"), right?
Im sikh and i say vote BNP!