Rather similar-sounding to Rome, involving more sexy Indian girls. Hooray! See here and here.

imdb (as you show on the post) says rai plays "livia," a latin name (so kind of weird for a 'byzantine,' though not impossible). wuzup?

Ummm... Ben Kingsley + Colin Firth? I really don't care how bad it is. I've watched these two in truly awful movies, and I'll do it again, damn it! :)

...the queen of mock chastity.

So I guess this won't be an HBO toga party.

imdb (as you show on the post) says rai plays "livia," a latin name (so kind of weird for a 'byzantine,' though not impossible). wuzup?

This list of SCA -approved Byzantine names lists a number that appear Latin in origin (Licinia, Maria, Martina, Juliana) along with the more Greek-sounding names one would expect. Apparently the list is garnered from historical documents.

From what I remember, the Romans were pretty OK with letting people keep their own social mores, so I'm not quick to blame it on hegemony....

Plus, my classics geek friend said it's a perfectly fine name for a Byzantine girl, so I'm convinced ;).

Didn't Ash say she was only going to play "Indian" roles? or did I just imagine that so I could keep marvelling at her prettiness without the 'acting' interfering too much...

Want to touch the heiny!...

Awwww, too bad the story won't be set in India.

If it was, we could have looked forward to Colin Firth mangling Hindi (or even Sanskrit?) the way he did Portuguese in Love Actually...

well, andrea, most of the balkans during this period was dominated by latin speakers (modern ex-yugoslavia and much of bulgaria and northern greece [thrace]). the byzantine emperor justinian the great was a latin speaker after all (though the last native one from what i recall), and i believe that during this period (late 5th century) there had only been a few "greek" byzantine emperors. but, kind of weird to name a "byzantine" character a classically latin name :)

If they were going to waste an actress in an epic snooze, they should’ve just scooped up Kareena Kapoor from the remains of Asoka.*

isn't every movie Kareena Kapoor does an epic snooze? At least as far as her lack-of-acting chops... zzzzzzzzzz

brimful, I'm with you. I'd see it just for Colin Firth.....I'm embarrassed to say I did see him in that silly Jane Austen and had the same reaction to the lake scene that Bridget Jones did (and yes, I know she's not real and just a character in a book). Women are silly, aren't they?

y'all the victim of colonized desire

So I guess this won't be an HBO toga party.

DAMN!I totally forgot about that.

This list of SCA -approved Byzantine names lists a number that appear Latin in origin (Licinia, Maria, Martina, Juliana) along with the more Greek-sounding names one would expect. Apparently the list is garnered from historical documents.

I just want to say for the record that I love this comment.

Manish, you don't watch enough British TV. I've seen Colin in some pretty eat up the scenery British TV dramas that are way better than their American counterparts.

Also, Asoka is fine if you leave out the songs, the very first scene, and the very last scene. I love the songs on their own but Choreography is terrible. More Indian Martials arts movies! Now!

Indian martials arts movies suck! Now! More specifically, Indian martial arts direction sucks. HARD. Like a vacuum cleaner. No no, like Mega Maid from Spaceballs. Harder than anything in the universe can suck. I didn't mind the songs in Asoka, Roshni Se had a nice 'picturisation'. The film sucked as hard as the fight choreography though. Daft flick.

Speaking of the HBO toga-party, Indira Varma (Bride & Prejudice, Kama Sutra), plays Niobe, "a peasant princess from a large and influential Roman clan" in the series (otherwise known as "Rome"), which premieres tomorrow night.

Speaking of the HBO toga-party, Indira Varma (Bride & Prejudice, Kama Sutra), plays Niobe

See comment number 1. I want the credit, me! Me! Me!

See comment number 1.

Maybe they just read the titles ;)

Bong Breaker, you're right, it's yours, sorry about that.

As far as sexy Indian girls, I don't know, I think Indira Varma sounds a bit sexier than Aishwarya Rai. Really, there's no way to have a normal fantasy about a former Miss World-turned-Byzantine-warrior-running-across-Brittania-with-Gandhi. Just can't do it... But, a "peasant princess?" Sure, that presses all the high- and low-brow buttons without turning me entirely stupid.

About the Indian martial arts, you're high... You ever seen a guy in a longhi whip-kick a thug? Sweet stuff, sweet, kind of like watching a cross between Bruce Lee and a Scotsman flipping his kilt... But, seriously, Kalaripayattu (from Kerala), is pretty interesting and its making its way into movies more and more. In fact, Jackie Chan used it in "The Myth," Jet Li's apparently studying it and Luc Besson's going to use it in his next film, or so the rumor goes.

BongBreaker....apologies. The credit is yours.

No Manish. I did not read all the comments :)

Old habits die hard........one of my on-going project has been to find actresses of non-Indian origin who made in big in Bollywood.

My ace is Mary Evans Wadia aka Fearless Nadia. She was an icon in her time.

http://theory.tifr.res.in/bombay/persons/me-wadia.html

Hey what those other Indian Martial Arts
KALARI
GATKA
Stand back ladies as Unclji is transformed from mild mannered tax accountant into lean mean turbaned lady loving, whirlwind of chakra power !

It's OK, I'm not that competitive about being the first to mention Rome! Well I pretend not to be competitive. Although...competitive Indian schoolboy habits die hard. Anyhoo, I'd be quite interested to talk about Indian martial arts. I've read a little and thanks for the references, but don't know a great deal other than kung fu orginated in India. Which I make sure to tell all Chinese friends.

By the way I wasn't insulting Indian martial arts per se, I was insulting the choreography in fillums.

sorry my boy went over the top there.
I have to completetly agree with you about martial arts in Indian films, though Hindi Filmi are much better on marital aids then your Chinis.

I should add bhanghra (well do you think that Mr Bruce Lee could clear the dance floor as quickly as your Uncleji with his deadly moves...burrrrah!

Stand back ladies as Unclji is transformed from mild mannered tax accountant into lean mean turbaned lady loving, whirlwind of chakra power !

*Swoon*

;)

... but don't know a great deal other than kung fu orginated in India. Which I make sure to tell all Chinese friends.

It did? Care to elaborate, BB?

Hope I haven't missed out reading anything or misread anything. After yesterday, my commenting confidence gave out. Damn!

I do traditional karate. It is believed that almost all martial arts have roots from India, according to non-Indian scholars.

Martial arts went to East Asia through silk route and flourished there, more than India (like Buddhism).

The Great Martial Arts of East Asia and India

http://www.doshinkan.com/STL_Website/Martial%20Arts%20History.htm

http://www.martialartsites.com/irondragon1/index.cfm?page=6

http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/roots.html

PS: I am using very varied sources, non of them from Indians.

A few websites about the Sikh martial art of Gatka kindly mentioned by that supercharged icon of wit and wisdom Uncleji, for those who are interested:

http://www.internationalgatka.org/

http://www.gatka.de/

http://www.warriorsaints.com/

I agree that the martial arts choreography in Asoka was less than superb, but I give a lot of credit to the fact that they actually incorporated it into the plot in a meaningful way. You gotta start somewhere. More, more, more, is a way of saying Get Better!

Yeah, I think Bodhidharma was supposed to have been an Indian prince (just like Buddha himself) and is connected somehow with Shaolin Kung Fu. In Japan I saw monuments to Bodhidharma clearly thanking him for leaving India and travelling east.

I'm no expert (but I do know one, so I'll get back to you) but undoubtedly the spread occurred hand-in-hand with Buddhism. The whole Buddhist roots of certain martial arts has in fact been questioned though - some believe that it was not the monks who perfected the early fighting strategies, but travelling warriors who may have looked like monks. It does seem odd that followers of one of the most non-violent religions would spend their time fighting, but then again apparently monasteries came under attack now and again. Plus if you're a monk I'm sure you get bored. So one monk probably did what I do when I'm bored, and thumped his mate in the face...and Fight Club V.1 was born.

Vajramukti means unarmed combat - or at least it did thousands o' years ago. Now somewhere along the lines, the ksatriyas started practicing 'Nata', which, as far as I know, has its origins in classical dance. I don't know how it morphed into a fighting style, but I suppose it began as a study of human movement.

Buddhist converts 'adjusted' Shiva as Nataraja to become Narayana Deva, the Chinese name for whom was Na Lo Yen Tien and he had some sort of protective role in Buddhism, tying in the whole nata-err..business.

Clearly the knowledge left India and was nurtured in ancient China. This history is based on archaeological findings, showing Chinese translations of Indian books and of referrals made to India in Chinese texts - such as the old Chinese name for India which translated as the land of the ksatriya.

Saheli, Bodhidharma was revered as a spiritual leader, but despite being frequently credited with bringing martial arts to China, I doubt this. It seems improbable it came from one man when it sprang up in various different areas with various different styles.

Oh and I forgot to mention Tai Chi's link to yoga - this is a far more well-known link than the one between India and kung fu, but also far older. This pre-dates Buddha by some 1000 years at least. It is logical to think that Tai Chi also influenced early martial arts in China.

Ah, things seemed so nice back then. Harappa and Mohenjo Daro exchanging information and goods with Mesopotamia and China freely. The three cradles of civilisation at the time. Sure there were a few slave-killings, witch-slayings, wife-beatings, animal-sacrifices and various wars, but it seemed like good fun! I say this tongue-in-cheek, but it genuinely seems like information was exchanged over vast distances remarkably easily. Like an intellectual higher class, which didn't muddy itself with all the inevitable decadence and whatnot back in the day, they just seemed to like finding out new shit, to put it bluntly.

Early martial artists were more like "warriors for hire" who provided protection to buddhist shrines and merchants along the silk route. Different martial arts then grew out their own cultural and historical needs.

It all comes down to funding.....no buck, no buck rogers ("the right stuff).

I never intended to provide a direct link to Buddhism, but a causal link to martial arts.

Once I heard a seminar on martial art history and their take was as follows:

"Early east asian martial arts were strongly influenced by indian martial arts through training or observation along the silk route. Some of the best schools were shops for hire along the route - these were very well travelled "Bruce Lees". Martial artists have always been safe-keepers of Buddhist and shinto shrines. As you move farther from India, that influence gets more dilute - why some of them are big on kick or lower body or upper body, etc."

You telling me that Monkey DIDN'T invented ku fung?!! :(
All together now
" Born from an egg on a mountain top etc. etc."

So why didn't it develop in India sub cont. ?

A) Was it because there were no restrictions on carrying weapons like in the Middle Kingdom ?

B) Was it the bathwater that was thrown out with the metaphorical baby that was Buddhism ?

C) We were all too peace loving ?

D) Was it because we were all walking around shame-shame doing Kama Sutra stuff ?
E) Lack of obvious franchising opportunities ?
YOU Boing Doctor Sahib with the public school education tell me NOW !

>> So why didn't it develop in India sub cont. ?

Bottom, line.......lack of funding. In East Asia, shrines and long distance merchants needed protection, and therefore, they was ample funding.

Modern day eastern martial arts has a strong US influence (moving the way boxers move).....because right after WW II, the en-masse supporters of martial art were US sailors. In fact, the best teachers from Japan, Korea were sent to US as part of post-WW II friendship.

Thanks for the explanation BB, but I still feel its a tenuous link(Kung Fu and India that is) or maybe I didn't get it(which is possible :). I was asking 'cuz from a very superficial observation, martial arts seem far more developed in the far east as opposed to India. And I have always been curious as to why. Other than the occassional mention of gatka or kalari payattu, there hardly seem to be any martial arts or warrior traditions in India.

So why didn't it develop in India sub cont. ?

Bottom, line.......lack of funding. In East Asia, shrines and long distance merchants needed protection, and therefore, they was ample funding.

Wouldn't the threat of invasion(and India had more than its fair share of these) and the threat from local enemies(Indian princely states were pretty much at odds every other day) warrant the desire to fund and encourage martial arts/warriors, so to speak?

{sorry Uncleji getting tired and emotional}
I'm not convinced by that explantion, India is a big place so are the Buddihist centres to the west. While I concur on the "bucks" theory, especially since Shoalin monks are now being hired as bodyguards in China, I still can't see why this couldn't of applyed in India.

Bodhidharma may of laid the seeds of the martial arts tradition in East Asia, since the movement he founded developed also Zen, taken up with gusto by those paragons of pacificism the samurai.

" Wouldn't the threat of invasion(and India had more than its fair share of these) and the threat from local enemies(Indian princely states were pretty much at odds every other day) warrant the desire to fund and encourage martial arts/warriors, so to speak?"

The heart of eastern-style martial art is the supreme allegiance to the teacher and not to the King. Therefore, to develop a martial art school, you need funding and alternate power structure with lot of patience. A true martial artist needs 10-20 years of training before they become lethal. In East Asia, the temples were always an alternate power houses.

I do not think Indian princes were into that long-term commitments and sharing power/ influence with teachers.

I have some work to do today, so the answer is very short. The historians have found strong link in the style of martial along the silk route and evidence for a gradual change in style from Southern India to the Koreas. I mean the katas, kumite, body movement etc.

When I say eastern-style martial art, there is also South American, European and other styles of martial art too. The concept of an egalitarian warrior (who uses his or her mind and body to the maximum) is timeless.

As Jai Singh said, sikhs (Gatka) are very similar to eastern martial artists, again the teacher (warrior guru) is more important the king.

I have literally 2 seconds - but just thought I'd say one other thing, to throw a nunchuku into the works. Could it be because:

F) Indians are shitty at just about anything physical?

Now don't start moaning about being warriors or whatever. We're talking a physical discipline which may or may not have been started in India, but one that was certainly developed and refined by the Chinese. For all we know it died out completely in India.

Kush has done a good job explaining certain things, it all seems to make sense.

But I'm serious about my Indians are crap thing. Look at a modern equivalent - sport. My perennial bugbear, Indians and sport. Whereas look at China. Sure part of it's funding and infrastructure and so forth, but is it such a leap to compare modern India and China to 2000 years ago? The mentalities haven't changed much. Even in my area of dancing, Oriental races kick ass and South Asians suck it.

India has a less physical culture than the Chinese. I think that is a big part of why martial arts didn't take off in a big way.

While my interest is piqued by the concept of this movie, Aishwarya is over-exposed (in hair color ads in women's magazines, etc.) She is the only Indian actress (or actor for that matter) that Americans are familiar with... anyway, it would much more interesting, in my opinion, if let's say, Clint Eastwood and Amitabh Bachchan did a film together. Some shoot 'em up Sholay meets The Good the Bad and the Ugly type film. That would be awesome!

Even in my area of dancing, Oriental races kick ass and South Asians suck it.

sad to say, very few brown folk can bring da funk, BB. In most of the street/funk/hiphop/house/etc classes around here, everybody is getting spanked by petite Asian girls with mad pop-n-lock skills.

oh my god are you off.

come my reception and prepare to be funkadified

i will regale you with one story

was at a roots reggae concert in college. was sitting in the stands, and say a woman in a head-wrap (very erykah badu) snicker when she saw us walk in -- like what do these kids know about soul music?

and you know, when the first beat drop and my hand went up at the perfect moment; her jaw drop. but i pay her no mind for the rest of the show as i proceed to get down

point of the story; i'm a badass dancer

"Indians are shitty at just about anything physical?"

you've never been around punjabis have you

"India has a less physical culture than the Chinese. I think that is a big part of why martial arts didn't take off in a big way."

this is an interesting theory, but its crap

India has a less physical culture than the Chinese. I think that is a big part of why martial arts didn't take off in a big way.

Could be. There does seem to be less cultural emphasis on working out, really keeping fit etc. (Very broadly speaking; yes I know that plenty of people back in India do go to the gym these days.)

The average male back in India does seem to be disproportionately skinny compared to guys from elsewhere (well, apart from the pot-bellied types -- too much ghee etc); I don't know if this is purely a factor of something lack in their diet, or something genetic, or whatever. This doesn't preclude the skinny types from potentially being able to bulk up as much as anyone else once they actually start working out, of course.

And yes I know about notable exceptions in matters physical such as Punjabis, as Raju has correctly mentioned.

I wonder if all this is due to the fact that, historically, Indian society wasn't necessarily a warrior-driven culture -- not to the extent of Japan, for example -- apart from the relatively small kshatriya elite. (The obvious exceptions being the Pathan-types and, of course, the Sikhs, although this was relatively recent in the millennia-old course of Indian history). If only the Kshatriyas were really supposed to be super-fit martial arts experts, then perhaps there was less cultural influence on the rest of the population to encourage them to also aspire to that. This argument is of course contradicted by the Samurai example.

It would be good to hear some insight from SM participants with more detailed knowledge of Indian history in this regard.

I was sitting here thinking of those posters of huge-ass Punjabi wrestlers you see in Brick Lane, so I googled Indian wrestling. Got a documentary about kushti, a letter from an Indian wrestler (apparently he took part in the very first mud-wrestling match in the U.S.!), a crazy photo gallery, etc. And don't forget Indian clubs. This also reminds me of Russell Peters joking about how Indians were brought to Africa as slaves...he says something like "My people were not built for physical labor! Accounting, yes."

oh my god are you off....point of the story; i'm a badass dancer

chill chill, Raju dear. I said very few brown folk could bring da funk. Surely you might be a gifted exception :)

Dunno. I'm one of the non-funk bringers, but I've been to great South Asian parties full of amazing dancers (and don't forget Raju :) ).

Plus, hey, yoga?

Well Ninjas, that Russell Peters gag is based on a colonial document stating that "the Indian is not built for physical labour. For toiling the fields in the blazing sun, no race is as adept as the negro". Which is why the slave trade was in black people and not Indians - their fault for being physically superior.

Raju I know you're the resident die-hard nationalist, but please base your arguments in facts. Plenty of my friends are Punjabi. Yes yes I know there's great pride in the Punjabi physique but let's take a look at Indian sporting prowess...our greatest athlete was Milka Singh, a Punjabi. He won no world titles. Apart from him, there's no one. Punjabis do certainly tend to be our best sportspeople, but even then they're not world standard. And I'm sure you're a badass dancer - but my point wasn't rhythm, it was power. Breakdancing is something you need serious muscle to be good at, Oriental people, white people and black people just put on muscle more easily than Indians, on the whole.

I stand by my assertion that Indians are just crap at physical pursuits. It's all in the genes. Where's Razib?!

... Oriental people, white people and black people just put on muscle more easily than Indians...

That's way too broad. Many Koreans put on muscle more easily than many Japanese; many Punjabis put on muscle more easily than many other ethnicities; and so on.

And dance ability depends on region, it's somewhat self-selecting. E.g. UC Berkeley is next to a hip-hop capital, Oakland, and had lots of amazing, desi dancers. Though the best desi dancers I've seen, aside from filmi forms, have been in hip-hop and salsa. Haven't seen a hardcore breaker yet.

there's plenty of good dancers who are desi. amir khan is a great boxer. the greatest batsmen in cricket arguably is sachin tendulkar.

can you name me the national martial art of mexico?

this is basically an excercise in pulling up generalizations and then agreeing with them

there's probably structural reasons indians don't win olympic medals. there has to be some reason countries vie for medals; it says something about the society, but not about race. The US does not have a single race that wins its medals. And now days it wins more female than male olympic events

there's a great deal of holes in this arguement. if you are not a good dancer, or are not physically adept, its not the cause of your "ethnicity". its even more strange considering how varied indians are

sorry for getting off the handle, but i'm good at very few things and dancing is one

Didn't catch this part, but I hope I'm not the resident nationalist here, I don't feel like one

Do you know how much physical toil happens in India? How many indians went to the Indies? What did they do, run corner shops?

Yeah I like making sweeping generalisations, it keeps things interesting. Sure my argument's based on opinion, but I can't be bothered to cite references and I severely doubt anyone has conducted a study involving Indians into who builds muscle most easily. Although if I said black people are better at running - ON THE WHOLE - would you be criticising the statement? I doubt it, but I didn't cite any references there either. It's a generalisation as there are great runners from all races. But MOST top sprinters and middle distance runners are black.

All I can say is what I've observed. Raju if you're a great dancer that's cool - I'm not saying you're not! If I was insinuating ALL Indians were lousy dancers, then I'd be calling myself lousy and my name would make no sense. I can't keep suffixing every statement with 'of course there are exceptions to this'. But ON THE WHOLE, Indians are just less good at sport (sorry I brought dancing into the equation, I only really meant the power aspect of things - rhythm/style is a whole different argument. Which I'm happy to debate too). I don't think I really need to provide evidence to support such an obvious observation. But population:medal ratio is an easy one to choose.

PS - Amir Khan is handy, but let's see what happens to him, he hasn't proved his mettle yet. His first pro fights have been against useless opposition. A boxer friend thinks he's rather overrated. Still, that's ONE. Cricket is a game more about skill than power or athleticism - now that's something Asians can have in abundance. In the UK the most skilful junior footballers are Bangladeshi (according to the Leeds coach) but they can't make the transition to senior level for some reason.

PPS - Manish, that Giant Singh fella has acromegaly, it's nothing to do with his ethnicity.

... that Giant Singh fella has acromegaly, it's nothing to do with his ethnicity.

True, but muscular Punjabis are a dime a dozen. Just swing by my gym.

Anecdotally, one of the biggest humans I've ever seen in person was a Jat from Yuba City, a mountain of a man.

dude-man: where is apul?

My gym is run by a muscular Pakistani Punjabi (that sounds rather gay) and is filled with Poland and Al Qaeda's finest. Once we saw a girl in there.

Yeah I can't afford a decent gym.

Actually, seeing as I'm already sounding gay - I had a discussion about Indian guys' bodies WITH MY GIRLFRIEND, who was telling me that John Abraham had a good body, which is rare. So then it got me thinking, part of it is to do with body fat. Once again I'm inviting criticism, but you rarely see really cut (defined) Indian guys, even if they've got bulging muscles.

There's a difference between Sunil Shetty/Salman Khan/Any actor with a name beginning with 'S'/Sunny Deol's chub-covered obviously sizeable muscles and Bruce Lee's relatively smaller chiselled muscles. Now OK, he was a freak with something like 3% body fat, but perhaps Indians have more body fat on average? PERHAPS! I'm not suggesting they do, just posing a question, don't shout at me! Don't mention Sumos cos that ruins the entire hypothesis.

What you said Manish begs the question; if muscle-bound Punjabis abound, why don't they do anything with it? World Strong Man competitions - all North European, Poles, Scandinavians, Americans presumably of the same stock and Pacific Islanders. Mainstream sports we've already covered.

Sania Mirza is making heavy going of it again. Thank God she's not muscle-bound. Although, one of my mates fantasises about Serena Williams. *shudder*

perhaps Indians have more body fat on average?

Except for the widespread, skinny phenotype. Maybe you could say there are more true endomorphs and ectomorphs than mesomorphs among desi phenotypes.

I had a discussion about Indian guys' bodies WITH MY GIRLFRIEND, who was telling me that John Abraham had a good body, which is rare.

Isn't John Abraham part Iranian or something? Anyways, BB keep talking about his body and you might not have a GF for long.

j/k.:)

Maybe you could say there are more true endomorphs and ectomorphs than mesomorphs among desi phenotypes

And do that I shall. Quite an astute observation you make there Manish, now that I think about.

-Bong Ectomorpher.

Shut up ms, or I'll eat you.

Raju wrote: there's probably structural reasons indians don't win olympic medals

Salon had an interesting story about that several years ago, about the "genetics of athletic excellence." It theorizes why different ethnicities excel at totally different Olympic sports.

BB: as for your male-dominated gym, I was just thinking last week how weird my gym is -- it's got a separate section just for women, but both the gyms play MTV Base. So, while Muslim women are hiding away from the male gaze on their own private little stairmasters, their Muslim men are in the next room, gazing upon MTV's finest booty while pumping iron.

Just about all gyms seem to play MTV Base. Of course mine switches over if the cricket's on. If I were a woman, I think I'd like a separate part of the gym. All those testosterone-overloaded men would intimidate me. Hell they already do, but I guess it's cos I'm so pretty.

A friend just joined the Virgin Gym in south London, it is insane. They have programmable TVs in the treadmills, spas, massages, pools, aromatherapy etc etc. My gym has a hole in the roof. The owner thinks I'm Muslim, so he treats me well. But I am LITERALLY the only non-Pole, non-Muslim guy there. And it's in a black area, oddly enough. Polish people sure love to pump iron.

Some Breakerisms:

• I had a discussion about Indian guys' bodies...
• All those testosterone-overloaded men would intimidate me. Hell they already do, but I guess it's cos I'm so pretty.
• Shut up ms, or I'll eat you.

Is it just me or is BB sounding...

Dang. So today I've learned that if I really want to discuss male anatomy in all its cut/ripped/built/mesomorphic splendor, I should hang out with men! Women don't talk about this nearly as much ;)

Speaking of which, I think that skinny, ghee-belly FOB look is quite cute. Spread collar-ed polyster makes it even better. Vijay Raaz? If you're reading this..Call me!

.. Indians are just crap at physical pursuits. It's all in the genes....

Mostly true, but then who knew of all these guys
http://pib.nic.in/feature/feyr2000/fapr2000/f040420001.html

Who knew 'em? Well precisely. A catalogue of mediocrity.

"Is BB sounding..." finish the sentence ms! The luxury of not caring if people think you're a faygele means you can be a lot more relaxed with what you say. Now I'm off to get a facial, listen to my Judy Garland collection (Best Of) and watch some pro-wrestling.

Ta-ta sailor!

I have a hard time believing in innate racial characteristics. in general I think structural environment plays a larger part. Especially given the migration patterns of the world population, and then if you factor in we've been miscengenating since the beginning of time, and not since the 1960's when it became cool

I have no idea how the US's sports performance is supposed to indicate anything about race. Have you seen the United States? In a generation or two there might be more mixed people in Cali than others. Hawaii is one heck of an athletic place from what i hear, and thats mix capital USA

I read the Salon article and here is one potential hole, out of many

The author talks about Kenyans being good at different sports than West Africans. So therefore, how are West Africans and Kenyans related to each other? By his example, Kenyans and West Africans are as different as Kenyans and Ukrainians, because they excell at different sports. Therefore race as it relates to a monolithic community does not work. I read somewhere that Africa has more genetic diversity than any other continent. There is no "race" by this measure. Maybe just regional variations with a sociological contrstruction called "race" that lumps Kenyans with West Africans. But by the authors viewpoint, they are not the same race, since they perform differently in different sports

Maybe my theories about Indians and race and sport and dancing and standing on your head are a bit hit and miss. But to say that race has nothing to do with athletic ability is poppycock.

We're always hearing about races having different prevalances of disease - and not environmentally-influenced disease - but genetic conditions like Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, Type 1 diabetes or whatever you like. So why can't we ascribe 'higher rates of being able to run fast' to races?

The Kalenjin tribe, mentioned in that article, are highlanders and have lived where they do now for hundreds of thousands of years. The same goes for the Sherpas in Tibet. Both of these ethnic groups have been in these areas for so long that they have adapted to altitude. Sherpas share a characteristic with the Himalayan yak - neither's lungs constrict due to low oxygen, whereas ours will. Hence they can survive at lower oxygen levels than a regular person. These characteristics persist in 2nd or 3rd gen Sherpas at sea level.

I would imagine a similar trait exists in the Kalenjin, (here is another article) and in their case this aerobic ability is combined with an ideal physique, making a perfect distance runner.

Oh, I just read the rest of the article, he uses the disease analogy too.

Sprinting is a far more complex situation, as there is no one country which consistently dominates and no one tribe to highlight. But watch any sprint final and it's a rare sight to see a non-black runner. All the runners are usually black, but they're often American, British, French, Namibian etc... So how can one say that it is not race which puts them in the race? They've all grown up in different countries, with different diets, training regimes and weather. Yet black sprinters are consistently better.

I'm not quite sure the point you're making about Hawaii Raju. Brian Clay is from Hawaii and he's World Decathalon Champ, arguably the best all-round athlete in the world. However they have only ever produced 2 other athletes who have made the US team since the modern Olympics began. They produce more footballers.

the point of Hawaii is there are a lot of mixed people there, and there are a lot of healthy people engaged in athletics

about, race and athletics; first i think you're talking about extremes when you speak about olympic competition. its not the everday type of thing. its a small percentage of every community. second, i wonder if race is what is going on. like i said, are kenyans and west africans the same race or not? if they are, then why are the elite of those two groups supposedly good at different sports?

another point is, in a mulit-ethnic society, how are you going to give credit by "race"? When a substantial number of americans are mixed --- african americans, european americans, and native americans, along with latino-americans are more mixed than might generally be assumed.

then you have the more homogenous communities in skandanvia. they are good at sports that require huge intake of food. you know who i see in world's toughest man competition? skandanavians and people from the South Pacific. are you telling me they are cousins?

i think more than race, which is arbitrary and socially constructed, there is something to be said for local variation. but thats a far cry from race. a kenyan who has never moved out of kenya may share quite a bit of genetic heritage with other kenyans. but he is not racially determined, there is a big difference. how is he neccesarily more similiar to someone from egypt or from mali? but who is he, racially?

justin gatlin is white but he's a sprint champion. many people have said they have trouble figuring out if he's black or white.

did you know Ted Williams, one of the giants of baseball was mixed? Half Anglo, Half Mexican

at base, when you look at a man and think you know his race and therefore what he is or is not good at, are you following a rational world view, or following a world view based in ignorance.

i think sizing someone up by putting them in a racial class is driven by an ahistorical and basically non-rational point of view

just to throw this out there for BB to digest ;)...

Explain Hrithik Roshan, then. Not chub-covered muscles. Extremely good dancer-- for my 2p, I'd say the best. (don't believe? Watch his picturisation of the Prabhudeva choreographed "Main Aisa Kyon Hoon" from Lakshya)

I'll not accept the easy-out, Bongsy, that Hrithik is an alien species, even though he is the 6-fingered man...

DesiDancer, I was so confused by the repeated references to HR having 6 fingers that I looked through all the pix on that album you linked to. I was still confused for a while (I think a lot of them are photoshopped to look normal) until I got to the end. Augh! My eyes, my eyes! Koi Mil Gaya was the 2nd Bollywood movie I ever saw, and somehow I missed his alien thumb. Holy moly.

Bongo bongo, the women's parts of the gyms are usually much smaller, with less equipment. The white women seem to stick to the main gym, while the Asians hide. Rude bwoys with greasy spiked hair don't intimidate me. The old bearded guy with the lunghi and skullcap on the exercise bike last week gave me pause, though.

dear ninja, it's right in that first link, where HR is flexxing and pouting. Look at his hand, on the left side of your screen, and there it is in all its freakishness!! Twin thumbs! Twin thumbs! aaaagh, the madness!

Actually, that's terrible to say; I read an interview where HR was saying that as a child, all the other kids didn't want to play with him because of his freaky thumbs :( Poor little guy.

Yeah, I saw it on your link when I'd studied it more closely. I was initially looking through the photos for an extra FINGER (like, another pinky, perhaps) not a whack thumb. ;)

Check out these x-rays of polydactyls, though!

Boy, how did we get from Aishwarya to muscular Punjabis to people with too many digits? ;)

Ninja, that's creepy! in a fascinating way, though.

the extra thumb contains a secret potion, which when consumed, gives one super dance abilities. Does MJ have an extra thumb?

Raju I think I'm gonna call this one quits, cos I really don't know what you're trying to say. In terms of the world population, mixed race people are still in a minority. I really don't see what they (we) have to do with this. The reason I was talking about the Olympics and specifically running was because that is the purest expression of physical ability - along with weightlifting. Both involve technique, but they're much more about natural ability that baseball or cricket. Hence race plays a bigger part.

Anyway, we'll leave it there. I do just want to say that I am not sizing anyone up by their race. But as someone who considered pursuing a career in athletics, I find the subject of genetic athletic ability interesting and am sometimes frustrated by political correctness obscuring debate.

Oh and you think Justin Gatlin is white? How do you figure?

DesiDancer, Hrithik is a freak. That's why he's more cut and can dance (don't think I rate him as highly as you though!) Having three thumbs discounts you from any conventional classification. Why didn't they ever remove it? Because some Indians think it's lucky. Eesh. I like the wiki link ninjas; he would've been burnt at the stake in the past!

In fact his polydactyly (http://www.leeds.ac.uk/handsurgery/EJHS/wend.htm) is often associated with other chromosomal problems. Having an extra pinky is common, but a split thumb is sometimes bad news.

I meant Jeremy Wariner

"Jeremy Wariner is fast—and white.

If the 20-year-old Baylor University junior wins the 400-meter gold as expected Monday night, he would be the first white American man to win a sprint medal since Mike Larabee’s 400 gold in 1964."

Race is a made-up thing and you can't tell people's attributes by making them into a race

and it annoys me when people say race is a factor in athletic prowess

many Punjabis put on muscle more easily than many other ethnicities

that's all interesting and such but where is apul?

I studied Korean martial arts for several years, and yes, they were attributed to India too (Bodhidharma etc). Read any good book on the Silk Route and it will be apparent how much interaction existed between ancient India and China. Amartya Sen's "The Argumentative Indian" (awesome book, btw) has an entire chapter dedicated to this. He highlights the fact that in ancient china, India was the only other country worth learning anything from, hence the scholarly traffic between the 2 countries. Once you read these stuff, the idea of martial arts spreading from India to China seems quite plausible.

Chinese people are not known to be generally war-loving either, so the argument that MAs died out in India coz Indians are peaceful is cr*p. I agree there's not much of an exercise culture among Indian middle-class. But to say that Indians are not physical is simply dumb, given the amount of physical/manual labor that many many people simply have to perform to survive.

I've always heard from my grandfather that the Brits destroyed a lot of local Indian MAs after the original SM (forms of stick and sword fighting etc) that were common in several parts of India, similar to the way they allegedly wiped out Indian competitors to their products (muslin, anyone?) Dunno the history behind this but it would be interesting!

IMHO, the reason India was dominated by foreign powers is NOT that we were less war-like, but coz we were divided into small warring principalities.

And bong-breaker, Olympic medals are not just a product of great talent, but a system that nurtures athletes, funding, attitudes and so on. Wait, didn't some Chinese win several track and field medals in the last Olympics??? The 110 meter hurdle sprint in particular?? So much for your racial theory...

Growing up in India, I can tell you that sports (other than cricket) was and still is not a great priority here. Other than a few intellectual circles, people rarely agonise over winning Olympic medals, it is seen as a "western" thing.

I'm willing the bet a lot that this will change soon, and within 20 or so years you'll see a lot more Indian presence in world sport. Attitudes are changing here and more and more parents are willing to "risk" their children to a sporting career.

Long post, sorry!

i read on IMDB that ash the queen of mock chastity was annoying to a person who saw an early viewing.
I guess pretty doesn't buy you talent.