I had a long argument with management at WDW, when I worked there. Spanning several months, I was able to convince them that my multiple earrings were "a cultural thing" and exempt from their policies. Seeing as I worked at the multicultural lovin' EPCOT center... it worked.

Upon hire, every Disney "cast member" gets a 2" "Look Book" detailing every single solitary facet of appearance, what is and isn't acceptable... right down to deoderant and kadche. So I wrote off Victoria's Secret on my taxes, seeing as my employer required it... :)

I did hold out on getting the nosepin til after I quit, not wanting to push my luck. Plus there's no India pavillion at EPCOT :(

so where is the pic of you [ANNA]with your nose ring ??

Plus there's no India pavillion at EPCOT :(

WHAT?! i've never been. i had no idea. bastards.

"Pashu tatti" ha ha! That is funny. I hadn't heard that before. I guess it derives from bullshit. Mogambo khush hua! Oh wait ... I'm Gabbar.

lol, this was SUCH a huge deal at my all girls catholic high school. They threatened to expel my friend because she got the tiniest little nose ring (a little silver ball). Her dad had to come in for multiple meetings with the principal. Then she was allowed to come to class with a bandaid on her nose. haha, it was great. the bandaid was massive whereas you could barely see the nose ring.

sonia-- sounds about right for a catholic school. ;)

:+:

you can see the flickr pic in your choice of sizes, if the rock in my nose ain't visible enough for you. :D but you probably already knew this, since you're all on flickr...right?

“You know that’s not something a Christian girl should do,” she replied, eyebrows undulating with disapproval and consternation.

Is it really? I know a number of Christian girls (in India) who have nose piercings - many of them being relatives.

who knows? i come from an ultra-orthodox family-- i wasn't allowed to wear pottu/bindis b/c THOSE were considered hindu. lehngas were considered north indian. (thank goodness she's over THAT bit of idiocy).

at the same time, sometimes it seems like our counterparts in India are a bit more "liberated", no? i remember the last time i went to Kerala, i was 14 and my hair touched the back of my knees. my female first cousins were shocked and awed, since none of THEM had hair that went past a shoulder blade. i was totally bewildered-- my father had made me grow out my hair b/c it's what "good Kerala girls do". i couldn't believe how liberal THEY were and how conservative i was. perhaps nose rings are like that. moms left india in '72, i think.

you could very well be right. :)

Plus there's no India pavillion at EPCOT

Can you believe it? They had some BS makeshift outpost in the World Showcase (where all the suitable countries live) that lumped India, Africa, and something else together. Basically it was 2 huts that sold Simba toys and some crap that Pier 1 wouldn't touch.

Then again, given how they treat their J-2 labor in the EPCOT countries, at least there is no India pavillion. ugh.

And what about the henna?

I thought that was a Hindu-Muslim thing?

Wondering, what is the origin of the use of Henna on the hands? I assume the use of Henna in one's hair springs from bad taste.

I assume the use of Henna in one's hair springs from bad taste.

Like silver crops and pince-nez's, it's an affliction peculiar to the elders, an ATD (auntie-transmitted disease).

And what about the henna?

I thought that was a Hindu-Muslim thing?

the whole reason for the dorky pose in that picture (slightly updated!) is, it (july of 2005) was the first time i had henna done. i was attending a Hindu ceremony between a Guju and a Rajasthani, so i guess it was a normal thing to do. no matter. i was mad excited, yo. ;)

yeah, christians don't do THAT either. and again, my mom rolled her eyes when she saw the picture. so it was totally worth it. :D

at the same time, sometimes it seems like our counterparts in India are a bit more "liberated", no? i remember the last time i went to Kerala, i was 14 and my hair touched the back of my knees. my female first cousins were shocked and awed, since none of THEM had hair that went past a shoulder blade. i was totally bewildered-- my father had made me grow out my hair b/c it's what "good Kerala girls do". i couldn't believe how liberal THEY were and how conservative i was. perhaps nose rings are like that. moms left india in '72, i think.

Omigod ANNA, this is dead right. I was 13 when I moved to the US, and within 2 months, all my uncles and aunts who'd been here for like, TWENTY YEARS, would go off about how "Amrikan" I was becomming, that no "decent Sri Lankan girl" would wear shorts, that my attitude was becoming "rude, like these Amrikans" blahfuckingblah.

When I finally shaved my legs (cause all the kids at my US school were pointing and giggling at my hirsuit limbs) my mom honestly acted like I was preparing to walk a red-light district. All this drama over makeup, hair products and above-the-knee skirts....and when I went back to SL by myself jsut 5 years later, I found my female cousins there squabbling with their brothers over who used the razor last.(!!!)

While 'dating' was a four letter word to my relatives over here, my beautiful, picky older cousin in SL finally fell for, and married, a Christian man seven years her junior. She's Buddhist.

Immigrant groups hold on to this really warped/nostaligic view of their homeland. Usually has nothing to do with the reality. And it's very bloody annoying for the kids.

/two cents>

I assume the use of Henna in one's hair springs from bad taste.

most of the religious wackos in bangladesh (muslims) have henna in their beards. i asked my uncle, who is a tableeghi muslim preoccupied with proper practice, if that was cool and he said yeah, as long as dudes weren't too flamboyant about it. muslims do henna at weddings too, and some complain that it's hindu, but brown muslims wedding traditions are mostly just derived from the cultural milieu (hindu) since in islam marriage is a simple contractual affair and not a sacrament.

Immigrant groups hold on to this really warped/nostaligic view of their homeland.

i recently visited bangladesh with my parents (resident in the USA for 25 years) and it is clear they are aliens there as well. human identity is socially mediated, and it seems the norm for isolated groups who are extracted out of context A to B to preserve the state of A at a temporally fixed time (when they were transferred). i think cultural evolution is faster in larger social networks.

one example is footbinding: it disappeared after the communist revolution in china proper but lasted in parts of sarawak and sabah in malasyian borneo among the chinese living there until the 1970s.

at the same time, sometimes it seems like our counterparts in India are a bit more "liberated", no?

Very true. Often, the immigrants are sort of stuck in time, they continue the traditions of the time they leave their homeland. when they go back, many immigrant communities are surprised to learn that things have changed there too.

and btw, it also applies to language. quebecois is famously quaint in comparison to the french of france proper (sounds "hickish") because of archaisms.

is this serendipitous or what? i just finished teaching a class on the exact same things that are being talked about above. and yes it is true that most diasporic communities (especially south asian) place an enormous amount of effort on preserving the old land's 'culture' and 'tradition.' and yes, in most cases it is the woman's body which becomes the site for cultural reproduction.

I assume the use of Henna in one's hair springs from bad taste.

For one thing, it is a natural hair-dye. Muslim girls use them as nail polish as well, while other paints are not allowed on nails as per islamic law :)

Anna darlin thanks for the pic update. I now have the image of ur nose photo-pasted in my head. And, btw, you look wiccckedddd in that pic :)

Often, the immigrants are sort of stuck in time

I am not so sure of this. Although I hear this quite often. My dad still watches BW hindi movies, mostly. It is just nostalgia, not stuck-in-time-ness. I think on average desi parents in America are more liberal than their counterparts in the homeland. I think the fact that they are a bit different than the really fresh FOBs makes people think they are stuck in time.

Razib,

I am disappointed by your comment. I was hoping for a dissertation on Hindu-Christian admixture in Kerala. : )

Anna,

Bangles too I see. I hope you don’t mind me asking, but the sleeve of your blouse is elbow length – is this an intentional stylistic choice?

I do like kohl though. I find Black&Whites photographs of a certain era; the women with heavy duty kohl and little or no other makeup, very striking.

I am disappointed by your comment. I was hoping for a dissertation on Hindu-Christian admixture in Kerala. : )

?

Excuse me for taking this thread further off the beaten path, but...

...it seems the norm for isolated groups who are extracted out of context A to B to preserve the state of A at a temporally fixed time (when they were transferred).

This is a fascinating phenomenon, especially when it is sustained over generations. Or millenia. I've read that, in Ethiopia, Christianity has been preserved in its "original" state as it was shortly after the time of Christ, because Ethiopian Christians were cut-off from the rest of the Christian world for so long. (How did they survive without a pope and going on crusades and burning people at the stake?) A similar story for Ethiopian Jews, who I've heard believed they were the only Jews in the world until this century.

What about first century Christians who settled in India? Anybody know much about their practice?

Often, the immigrants are sort of stuck in time

I am not so sure of this.

I am. Dead sure. It's something I moan about the whole time. My family came to the UK in the 80s, when I was a wee fella. Most British Asians came over in the 60s/early 70s. We're still poles apart in so many ways. The backwards attitudes of a vast swathe of British Asians astounds me. These 'values' are passed onto their sprogs, culminating in people my age who are bizarrely conservative and stuck in a time warp. It ain't nostalgia if you've never been to India tef. (not referring to you, I mean brown people who are British/American/Canadian etc born and raised)

at the same time, sometimes it seems like our counterparts in India are a bit more "liberated", no?

I could imagine how you guys would have been brought up here. One good example is my distant uncle, who came to US in the 70's. I stayed in his home for 2 weeks. This was my first visit to his home and one thing I carefully observed is when it comes to teaching their kids about culture and morality they goback to their good olden days in India and teach the same stuff to their kids. Which is not wrong from their prespective. unfortunately the kids born here are the victims of this.

In contrast India, after liberalization of the economy in the 90's became more open to western products, movies and started liking anything western. Here the marketing is the key. All these western products were marketed in Hinglish, rather than complete English or Hindi. Imagine spiderman speaking Tamil, Hindi. yes, this shit happens in India. All the blockbuster movies in Hollywood are dubbed in regional languages and they make good money, sometimes overthrowing the movies made in local.

Also another very important thing is Indian girls winning the numerous Miss world and Miss universe titles in the last decade alone. Each and every girl next door wanted to either look like these models or had a dream of becoming a beauty queen one day. Every street in every city started having Miss beauty queen contest. People started liking these things and slowly attitudes have started changing...

Its been 5 Years for me here in US and I havent been back to India yet, but when I speak to people who have come recently come from India, they say that if I go back I will find a lot of changes in India.

... when I speak to people who have come recently come from India, they say that if I go back I will find a lot of changes in India.

Flyovers and cash machines, for starters ;)

"Its been 5 Years for me here in US and I havent been back to India yet, but when I speak to people who have come recently come from India, they say that if I go back I will find a lot of changes in India."

In last 5 years, I have been averaging once a year to India. I have seen tremendous change (good and bad - both), almost unbelievable. Something like, people tell me about China went through. Some of your points FOBish are dead-on.

However, in 80-90s, when I used to go to India. nothing looked different, it was almost painfully static.

Razib,

I would have thought you would have a posted a genetic/ethnographic explanantion.

BongBreaker,

My experience has been a little different. I think when people make the comparison between our parents and the FOBs, all too often the generational difference between the two groups gets ignored.

Would you say your parents are more or less liberal/westernised/modern compared to your parents siblings in India?

Pretty much in agreement with everything above. I went on a visit to India a year ago and found that the tables had turned on me. All of a sudden everyone (by which I mean people in Bomaby ;)) was guzzling booze and clubbing every night and canoodling (by which I mean PDA, something I never expected in India) with their significant others. TV was full of barely-attired models and writhing, pour-on-the-baby-oil dancers.

Needless to say, I felt like a bit of an idiot in my rush to cover myself up with the baggiest clothes I owned. No, wait, I'm still being too soft on myself. The sad truth is, folks, I was uncool. :(

I'd even venture that immigrant parents don't carry the values of the time that they left India, but rather the values of the time in which they were children. It's really the only example of parenting and family skills that they have, drawing on their own upbringing.

My dad being born in the mid-late 40s, carries my Dadaji's value system and the values of the lovely sisters in Catholic schools of 50s-60s India in many ways. Fortunately for me, he's the freakishly progressive one in his family...

when I went back to SL by myself jsut 5 years later, I found my female cousins there squabbling with their brothers over who used the razor last.(!!!)

Cicatrix, if one day I read about a Sri Lankan Olympic swimming champion, I'll say you clued me in first. There's nothing quite as funny as a bunch of hyper-straight, very buff guys meticulously helping each other shave.

OT--does anyone know how India's Sephardic Jews feel about piercing?

Immigrant communities certainly can have some extremely moribund ideas about life in the "motherland". It’s sometimes hilarious how warped these cultural hand-me-downs can become. I remember my hindu relatives in Trinidad explicitly supporting Pakistan’s cricket team over the West Indies, the reason being that there weren’t enough Indians on the latter.

I would have thought you would have a posted a genetic/ethnographic explanantion.

for what? i tend not to moot genetic differences between groups on this weblog much cuz it isn't relevant to most of the things you are talking about. genetics i bring up in terms of phylogenetic ancestry (claims people make around her sometimes being incorrect or imprecise).

Or millenia. I've read that, in Ethiopia, Christianity has been preserved in its "original" state as it was shortly after the time of Christ, because Ethiopian Christians were cut-off from the rest of the Christian world for so long. (How did they survive without a pope and going on crusades and burning people at the stake?) A similar story for Ethiopian Jews, who I've heard believed they were the only Jews in the world until this century.

ethiopian christians have been in touch with the coptic patriarch of egypt for 1500 years. it seems that their version of christianity was brought by syrian jacobites, which is theologically monophysite, like coptic, armenian and some syrian rite malayalee christians. some practices that are more "jewish" like circumcision or pork aversion likely predated christianity. in sum, their christianity isn't more ancient, just different (it is less greek and roman influenced, like western christianity, and more syrian-semitic in tincture). i don't know that the falashas were totally out contact, jewish travellers mentioned them having kingdoms in northern ethiopia, etc. etc.

the bene israel of the bombay area seem to have preserved a pre-talmudic form of judaism (some of the same, and more, can be said of the falasha, the ethiopian jews [aka beta israel]). the cochin jews were long in contact with the diaspora so they tend to practice world normative judaism (ie; talmudic judaism).

Christianity has been preserved in its "original" state as it was shortly after the time of Christ, because Ethiopian Christians were cut-off from the rest of the Christian world for so long

also, ethiopia was likely christianized after the roman state adopted christianity. the official dates are i think usually in the 4th century, right around the time constantine adopted christianity, but almost certainly the full conversion was not completed until 1-2 centuries later. so, if the hypothesis is to hold ethiopian christianity should preserve features of 5th century christianity. as it is, it is, as i said, a monophysite variant, which was prevelant in the non-greek regions of the eastern byzantine empire (armenia, syria and egypt). on the brown related note, i believe that many syrian christians owe ultimate alleigence to the jacobite patriarch in antioch, a transfer from an earlier alliegence to the nestorian patriarch in baghdad....

my mom actually took me to get my nose pierced... and when i started working as a teacher i had to defend my nose ring.

ugh what a pain.

Okay, firstly Durban Girls High is an uppity school that is very big on all its students prescribing to their principals. You have to wear the exact uniform issued by the school. No frills. Any other school you could get away with your hijab and nose rings and as many piercings as you want. Secondly the nose ring has never had any religious significance in South Africa; kids pierce their nose cos it is fashionable! South Africans have been isolated from the rest of the world and have lost 85% of their culture. Don’t you love Apartheid… SA is big on school uniform, and teenagers will always find a way around it and then get their parents hyped.

Oh I forgot to add, I am a Durban Girls high alumni…..:) we got in trouble for wearing funky socks!!!

Wow, fascinating, Razib. Guess I came to the right place to get all that stuff cleared up. And I'm glad to see you gave up atheism over the course of this thread! Must have decided to convert to monophysite Jacobianism.

monophysite Jacobianism.

wasting time in the lab, not at home, so different name showed up. but btw, monophysite jacobianism would be rather hilarious. disophytes to the guillotine!

“Only Hindu girls SHOULD get their noses pierced.”

Yeah, when I got mine done, my mom used the following arguments:

(1) It's just a fad, I can't believe you did it.
(2) Women in our part of India don't (when I gave her the list of my aunts who had pierced noses, she said "I don't know what's wrong with them." Seriously, Ma, if you're going to lie - make it good!)
(3) You'll never get a job

Every year she used to ask me to take it out as her Mother's Day present. Not going to happen! (I just stopped asking her what she wanted. :) )

“Only Hindu girls SHOULD get their noses pierced.”

hehh..my mom tried a different tack when I showed up with a (silver hoop) nose ring:
1. It's going to make your nose look bigger
2. How will you blow your nose? You'll get snot stuck on it!
3. Your pimples just got better, and now you put a hole in your face!

sucks to admit - she was right on all counts...

I think that one of the reason that immigrant families hold on to their culture stronger than their relatives back home is so that their kids do not embrace the local culture of the land - at least they try to.

And that is why they send their kids to all these culutral schools, and you end up with 2G kids who play the sitar, sing carnatic classical music, and know the bhagavat gita inside out. Whereas back home there are no horse blinders on for no fear of any sort of cultural invasion.

Alright guys so are we going to move beyond primitive 'nose' piercings and on to other sorta piercings....I guess we need a pic up there to induce the topic

LOL! This post took me back to my engineering days in Mysore when for a fad , my friend put a "thingy" through her eyebrow, and during the Final "viva" exam, the proctor was quizzing more about her brow-hoop than the subject, so without batting an eyelid she said it's a custom in her "tribe" LOL...(she's from Gujrat)..He believed it and she passed the exam.

OT : I have noticed some Indian aunties (some of them raised here themselves) bitching about American born Desi girls "scantolous" dresses.. I'm like what It's ok if "THEY" wear it but not our girls??...SHEESH

It's going to make your nose look bigger.

I once had a girl tell that she didnt wear a nose ring because it would bring attention to her big nose.(she thought her nose was too big, I thought it was just fine)

... when I speak to people who have come recently come from India, they say that if I go back I will find a lot of changes in India.

Flyovers and cash machines, for starters ;)

And foam parties !!!

It's just a fad, I can't believe you did it.

It's a class thing in India, some people consider it lower-class. But a small silver stud at the tip of a long, proud nose is just delicious.

My brother tried flipping this argument around and arguing he needed to wear small gold hoops because that's the way the rajas rolled. That didn't work too well with the parental units.

My brother tried flipping this argument around and arguing he needed to wear small gold hoops because that's the way the rajas rolled. That didn't work too well with the parental units.

I recall some of the Brahmin kids in school sporting thin golden hoops post upanayana (sacred thread ceremony). One day these guys were hanging with the geek-squad with me, the next day they're cooler than the guy that shaved and smoked when he was 12. Ofcourse, that was till they got really insufferable and forced the rest of us to squeal on them. The rest of the class soon found out that the gold hoops came with hours of fasting and praying and being grounded.

Tween street cred can be such a slippery slope.

My brother tried flipping this argument around and arguing he needed to wear small gold hoops because that's the way the rajas rolled. That didn't work too well with the parental units.

When I told my dad that his oldest brother has pierced ears he told me "not to talk rubbish." I insisted (and *I'm* the one who sat on his lap as a child.) Our last trip to Malaysia, my uncle confirmed it for me. Oddly, my dad's youngest brother also has his ears pierced (yet another uncle claims that my grandparents were sick of waiting for a girl - 9 boys in a row! And then, finally, two girls.)

My brother tried flipping this argument around and arguing he needed to wear small gold hoops because that's the way the rajas rolled. That didn't work too well with the parental units.

I think guys wearing earrings is a recurring fashion trend among browns. I've got earrings in both ears but i took them out while i was in the old country last summer, i get enough gay jokes from the uncles here, but a few always say their grandfathers or their grandfathers' grandfathers wore them back in the day

I suppose, Malayalee Hindu girls, if they are not from border regions of Karnataka, don't have the tradition of piercing the nose. So piercing nose is un-Hindu for Malayalee Hindu girls just as non-eating beef is un-Hindu for general Malayalees. That being the case, if a Malayalee Christian girl gets her nose pierced it only shows she is confirming her faith in difference to Malayalee Hinduism.

May I add another ticklish trivia?

The large nose ring worn at weddings in both Hindu and Muslim ones in many parts of India sometimes(in certain communitites) stands for a sexual symbol of marriage. The nose studs dont really stand for the same thing.

The "nath utarvai"( taking off the the nath) was the symbol of the exchange of gifts that occurred on the wedding night. These gifts obviously went way beyond just a ring.

and toe rings apparently,(I have heard unconfirmed reports) press on a pressure point that arouse a woman sexually. Hence many families would not allow girls to wear toe rings before getting married.

Talk about hidden meanings, although beautiful ones.

so THAT'S why my uncle was horrified at my toe rings!? w00t, the things you learn on SM. :D

yeah, I'd asked you about that after I saw something on your blog, ANNA. I wore toe rings for years, before I was married and every once in a while some auntie at mandir would ask me where my husband was... I only realized after I got married and we did the suhaag (bridal prep including various accoutrement that make a woman beautiful & ready for marriage) that the bichue (toe rings) are for married women only, at least where we're from (UP)

I don't know about sexual stimulus; they sure do pinch in pointe shoes...

ugh...you DID ask...when i posted the BlogHer shot of my sandals and iBook...i forgot to answer. :( i am teh suck.

i wear them if they're cute. i don't know about any of the kerala traditions wrt them. and yes, they're a BITCH in pointy shoes. owww.

at least now that comment volume on diary is down/controlled, i'll probably be less likely to let stuff like that fall through the cracks, since you were obviously dying for me to tell you...what ended up being nothing, essentially. ;)

wow, i never had an issue when i got a nosering. my mom got one, even though her mom didn't have one. then, in highschool, i thought, "yes, i am ready."

i never associated with class. i didn't even know it was a class/caste thing.

and toe rings- i have heard the same reports. only married women wear it cause of it's sexual potency. i can't wait to wear ten toe rings...each on one toe. :)

Anna,

Bangles too I see. I hope you don’t mind me asking, but the sleeve of your blouse is elbow length – is this an intentional stylistic choice?

if by intentional, you mean that India Sari Palace only sells ready-made blouses w/elbow-length sleeves, then yes. totally intentional. ;)

i purchased that pretty pink sari (and the bangles and obv, the blouse) four hours before the event; there was no time to sew a matching blouse from the "blouse piece" AND get back to the suburbs AND get ready. that eye makeup took some time! :D

i have my nose done , and i do not see the big thing about it. if you do not like me or the thing in my nose do not look at me . for i do not cair what you frake think .

Wow! I just "happened'' upon this site in search of sonali gold jewelry and decided to check it out! How very informative! As for the toe rings - I've always passed them up but since i've found out the true reason for wearing them - I will be buying 10! My background? I'm African American, born, bred, schooled in the USA and is non-judgemental! Live and let live!

I go to a lame catholic school and i got my nose pierced. I had a band aid on it but i still got called down to the office and was given the "option" to take it out right there or go home. Since it was bullshit, because all the white girls get away with it, i refused to take it out and went home. I had to eventually take it out because they wouldnt let me come back to school and graduation was right around the coner so it wasnt worth it. Damn white people

i live in america and im half white and half pakistani i have my nose pierced and i'm musilum it's so a cultural thing not religious at all so i was at school today when the principle comes up to me and is like "You're not allowed to wear appendages in school." in this really authoritive voice and have no idea what an appendage is so i'm like "what?" and he's like "That thing in your nose."(He has a PhD or whatever doesnt he know how to say nose ring?)so im going to wear it and i'm soo angry and they're soo depriving me of my constitutional right of freedom of expression. oh yeah he used appendage in the wrong context how stupid can he get?

I agree. Tell him you'll remove it when he learns not to abuse the English language. ;)

what side do muslim girls have their nose pierced on?

what side do muslim girls have their nose pierced on?

Umm nose earings are hot.
There called "Koka" in punjabi, and its an appreciation to beauty
I dont think you should consider it as a caste or a religious thing
just do it if you would like to, im sure it look goods on you too.
If no guy has called u up on it, i do it lol
have fun
-Mayank