visibility and numerosity of a minority often correlates with majority hostility, so i'm not surprised.

nearly 1% of canadians are sikh. 13,000 punjabi speakers in calgary out of 940,000 ppl.

I tried protesting the requirement to wear a hoochie skirt while on the tennis team (the boys wore baggy shorts down to their knees like basketball players -- why should girls be forced to run around in ass-showing skirts and shove tennis balls up that nasty special underwear when the boys can have proper pockets?), but got told I couldn't play unless I did. If an item can go with the general uniform and doesn't get in the way of anything physical, what's the big deal?

Belgium bans the burqa

The burqa and a smaller type of face mask, the niqab, has been banned in the cities and towns of Ghent, Antwerp, Sint-Truiden, Lebbeke and Maaseik.

The Mayor of Maaseik, Jan Cleemers, said he acted after six women started wearing burqas a few years ago, scaring residents of his town of 24,000. Five of the women stopped wearing the garments, but not Mrs Bouloudo.

A police inspector in Maaseik said the head-to-toe covering alarmed locals. "You cannot identify or recognise someone when they're wearing a burqa, especially at night. It's not normal, we don't have that in our culture," he said

Is anyone else alarmed by the burqa?

When I was growing up none of the Muslim women in my neighbourhood (90% Pakistani) wore the burqa - a few wore the hijab. In the last fifteen years that has changed and I reckon every fifth or sixth Pakistani woman you walk past in the street wears a burqa or niqab - and it is disconcerting.

The worst was when I took my kid cousin to the park to play on the swings and there were girls of about ten or eleven years old in full burqa running about in black with nothing showing but their eyes having their weekly ration of joy - I just dont understand why a girl has to be covered up like that.

Its relevant to this because in France Sikhs had a hard time after the hijab was banned in schools - I dont know how many Sikhs are in Belgium and I wonder if this would affect them - it seems to be face-covering specific.

Is anyone else alarmed by the burqa?

FUCK YEAH!

I just dont understand why a girl has to be covered up like that.

because she's a pearl, blah, blah...blah, blah....

when i was in college i read a book about machiavelli's ambivalent relationship to christianity. for machiavelli christianity was a sap on the spirit of a free republic and implied external ties (roman catholicism and the pope after all). it seems that to some extent he favored a patriotic paganism that was subservient to the polity. so the tensions between church and state are old indeed (some would push back to canossa or constantine, but i don't think the nation really existed then so the dynamic was different). in the anglo-saxon nations there is a tacit assumption that religion is different than other beliefs or opinions, that it gives an added imprimatur of legitimacy to any practice. last week's "hasidic jewish mohel sucking on baby penis wounds" controversy illustrates the point, because it was religious practice no pedophile charges were brought (i mean seriously, a 50 year old man putting his mouth on a infant's penis in any other context!?!?!). religious liberty is a sticky issue, there are limits as the case of native american peyote smoking illustrates. but, there are plenty of work arounds and implicit look-the-other-way tendencies, christian scientists in many states can't be prosecuted for child neglect as easily as other parents (their religion tends to be hostile to modern medicine, so sometimes kids who are raised by hardcore parents die of minor ailments, often very painfully). the amish community has been left alone for many years as well, though sex abuse scandals have started to come to light. and so on.

religious liberty is good. i'm one of those people who assumes that most people will be involved in organized religion for the indefinite future, and that we have to make accommodations with that reality. but, we need to be more judicious and cautious about what we find to be acceptable or not acceptable (in my opinion). we need to have a public debate as to the possible conflicts between man-made law and the 'higher law.' we need to figure out a common set of values and norms which bind us together as nations that transcend (or at least supplement!) the identity of the fellowship of the believers.

in many roman catholic cultures anti-clericalism has a long history, and in places like france or germany the church has become subservient to the state (in france it is through exclusion, in germany through controlled subsidization). in the anglo-saxon countries we haven't had those issues to nearly the same extent. but now our pluralism is getting more thorough, and i believe some groups are combining the special privileges granted to religious practice and synthesizing it with multicultural platitudes of all-cultures-are-equal to block any movement toward compromise with the mainstream.

i have said it before: a liberal republic needs a fellowship of equals, face to face, rather than the sealed off social architectures that some of the more conservative muslims favor.

i guess i'll turn this into a blog post at some point....

btw, readers of the weblog might be interested in tariq ramadan's the future of western muslims, it's an intellectually serious work...but it leaves me frankly not optimistic about islam-as-we-know-it and integration with the west. the refusal to move fast on shariah is what i think will be the stickler, i think in principle ramadan would not oppose a lot of accommodation with western norms...but he wants it to be on muslim terms in western nations. books like reza aslan's no god but god aren't worth reading unless you need some beach or plane paperbacks.

razib

I will probably be called prejudiced - but I actually think that making a pre-pubescent girl wear a burqa is a form of child abuse.

How ironic -- I wasn't paying attention to all the recent posts about Sania, so maybe I missed the news that the religious old men with "offended sensibilities" went after her tennis skirt.

Punjabi Boy, I HATE seeing young Muslim girls on playgrounds too, all covered up. (or at the swimming pool, refusing to take lessons with their classmates My Pakistani Muslim boss explained to me once that girls aren't supposed to decide whether to cover themselves until they're older, and that forcing it on children is just gross. In one of my women's studies classes in college we read an essay about how "throwing like a girl" develops, and the author said it was because of a million subtle things in a girl's childhood that make her not comfortable being completely physical and at one with her abilities (i.e., having to wear a dress and being told not to get dirty, being discouraged from climbing trees, etc). I can only imagine that girls physically restricted from a young age will grow up with restricted psychologies as well. It's like the women in the zenanas being unable to imagine life outside the family compound, and agitated if they have to venture out.

As for the hijab in France, yesterday's paper had a story about how one year on, mostly no one cares and the girls are totally fine taking it off for school, agreeing that school is a place where students are French above everything else. Perhaps a piece of propaganda, but if true, it's encouraging. Apparently France is taking credit for stemming a wave of extremism with measures like this. Maybe all the weird beards are just moving to England now. ;)

There was a very good 90-minute documentary on the BBC here last night called "Battle for Islam", it was about the various moderate and extremist forces now struggling for control of the faith worldwide, and the subsequent implications for the future.

The programme was presented by a writer called Ziauddin Sardar and he travelled to a number of Islamic countries to see how they're dealing with the current struggle. The BBC website has a detailed summary of the programme and the issues it discussed on this URL:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/battle_for_islam/4203918.stm

Is anyone else alarmed by the burqa?

Not at all.Why is it alarming? Am not sure I get what you mean.

Would I wear it?

There are a whole bunch of very close friends that I have, who happen to be Muslim and none of them wear the burqa. In fact, they are all among the most nattily dressed women one might find, and to add to which, they are exceptionally attracttive. (there is something to the theory Muslim women are good looking I think, but guys would probably make better observations on this)

They tell me that a lot of Indian Muslims(they included) have a huge Sufi influence. In this, they kind of reject extreme forms of religious display as they feel it is not relevant to the basic tenets of their faith. I must say, none of them display any external forms of religious expression, while their conduct and behaviour is beautifully in line with the good things I associate with Islam.

Is this something that is such an anomaly? The "tehzeeb", the honesty, "iman", brotherhood, hospitality and (shamelesly) good food(specially kebabs) I associate with Muslims, is all born out by my interactions with these friends. They are from different parts of India, one is from Bengal, the other is from karnataka, two are from Lucknow and another is a Kashmiri.

The burqa seems a complete afterthought.

Hmmmm. is my sample very skewed? I hope not.

Sumita

Sumita

So you dont find covering a girl from head to toe in black with only a slit for eyes alarming?

==============

Jai Singh

I missed that programme and I hope it is right - if it is then there is going to be an almighty head on collision between these two schools and I have to say that in England, the 'traditionalists' and orthodox are winning. When I said in my earlier post that you never saw a girl or woman in a burqa fifteen years ago I wanted to point out that this dress code indicates a growing conservatism among a certain section of Muslims, not an opening up - in other words some sections of Muslims are retreating and becoming more conservative rather than less so.

You must have noticed it yourself - did you see so many burqas and niqabs when you were growing up as you do now?

More on the girl/physical ability thing, there was a huge essay in a recent Sunday mag about a British woman who'd adopted a Nepalese baby while working over there, who suffered huge pangs of guilt for the first few years for depriving the infant of "her culture." She finally took the kid for a visit (against her wishes, as she felt British, not Nepalese), only to realize that her daughter didn't fit in with her peers because she was much more verbally assertive and physically confident than all the other girls. Basically the mother decided that maybe having a Western upbringing wasn't the worst thing that could happen to the girl.

On the main topic - the achievments of Sikhs in Canada - it is clear that Sikhs have done a lot and have a long history in Canada there - but the problems of gang violence and criminality amongst a small section of Punjabi youth in Vancouver show that a ghetto-Sicilian mentality needs to be snapped out of there too.

Sunita -- Your sample may indeed be skewed slightly. It may be specific to the US (assuming that's where you are right now). Here in the UK, there aren't very many Muslims from India itself, apart from the small Gujju Vohra minority. The greater proportion seem to be from Pakistan, followed by Bangladesh.

There are, however, an increasing number from the Middle East and Africa.

Punjabi Boy -- You're right about the increasing numbers of burkas, niqabs, headscarves etc, but I don't know if this is because of an increasing conservatism or due to the recent immigrations from the Middle East (Afghanistan and westwards). Are you sure it is the Pakistanis who are covering up, and not predominantly women from other parts of the Islamic world ?

Article from yesterdays Guardian about the tensions amongst Asians in the aftermath of the London bombings and generally about how communal politics have affected desis in England

Since the July 7 bombings much attention has been focused on the Muslim community, while attacks on Hindus and Sikhs have been largely ignored. Shivani Nagarajah talks to non-Muslim Asians about feeling under siege

It wasn't always this way. Many of the older generation of Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims speak with real sadness about how things have changed. They describe how the early south Asian settlers to Britain saw one another as brothers and sisters, unified by a common heritage and shared sense of isolation. Until the 1980s, Asians organised collectively, with groups such as the Bradford Asian Youth Movement cutting across religious divisions. All this came to an end with the Salman Rushdie affair and the subsequent development of a distinct British Muslim identity. "Muslim identity rocketed off with one controversy after another, post-Rushdie," says Modood. "It became very difficult to develop an Asian identity which included other faiths."

but I don't know if this is because of an increasing conservatism or due to the recent immigrations from the Middle East (Afghanistan and westwards).

Its in primarily Pakistani and Bangla areas I am talking about.

Punjabi Boy

So you dont find covering a girl from head to toe in black with only a slit for eyes alarming?

Alarming, no. Curious, yes. I am not sure whether the woman feels forced or thinks she is making a free choice. I don't understand her inner reality when I see a burqa. Hence, if it makes her feel better in some way, it may be fine in my opinion. I cant speak for another's self-image and identity, only for mine. Hence am not alarmed. But yes, if I heard a man force a woman to wear one, I would stay very clear of such a man. For me that would be symptomatic of the fact he thinks a woman's body may be a temptation he cannot overcome throuh his free will and choice. That is a very alarming thought. The burqa by itself , is not.

Do you see the difference? Maybe, as a man, your sensibilities are greater(as they should be) about how men think about all this. But, to me, as a woman, a burqa by itself means nothing. Its the system of thought that may be assoiated with it that bears examination.

Sumita

Jai

Your sample may indeed be skewed slightly. It may be specific to the US

Though the US is where I am now, these are all friends I have from India, who I knew in school. My mother also has similar friends (who did not wear burqa and would die laughing if one asked them to. I do think Muslims from India have something that is not in line with the stereotypes I hear/see in the rest of the world.

Sumita

I will probably be called prejudiced - but I actually think that making a pre-pubescent girl wear a burqa is a form of child abuse.

How is this any different from making a young sikh munda wear a turban ?

It funny how Surrey Sikhs go around asking everyone else in the country to bend over backwards to accomodate their beliefs when they themselves are bigoted and intolerant.

Sumita

But, to me, as a woman, a burqa by itself means nothing. Its the system of thought that may be assoiated with it that bears examination.

Come on - that is sophistry - the two are coterminous - you can apply this philosophising about 'meaning' to everything- abstract thought is a great thing when its just exercising and doing sit-ups of the mind for the sake of it - I am talking in real terms of girls being dressed in burqa's with only slits for their eyes.

Punjabi Boy,

Its in primarily Pakistani and Bangla areas I am talking about

I don't live in an Asian-dominated area and don't visit areas with large Pakistani and Bangla areas very often, but on the few occasions recently when I have visited such areas around London, yes you are right there do seem to be a lot more burkas etc around. I'm not sure if this is due to increasing orthodoxy, or immigration (via marriage ?) from their countries of origin, or simply population growth (ie. more of them are visible), or some combination of all of these. I think a British Muslim living in one of these areas, or at least with a greater insight into his/her community, would be the best person to answer why this is happening these days.

It could also, of course, be due to greater religious control of British Muslim communities by imams etc at all the mosques which seem to have sprung up everywhere.

Sumita,

For me that would be symptomatic of the fact he thinks a woman's body may be a temptation he cannot overcome throuh his free will and choice. That is a very alarming thought.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you've actually given the exact historical reason as to how the whole business of keeping Muslim women covered up and segregating them from men came about during Mohammad's time. This is exactly why it happened -- because some of his male followers complained that they were finding women spiritually distracting. Apparently one of his follower's children suggested the idea of keeping women away from male eyes in order to solve the problem, and Mohammad thought it was the perfect solution.

Sumita,

I do think Muslims from India have something that is not in line with the stereotypes I hear/see in the rest of the world.

You do see burka-clad women in India here and there, but you may be right in your comments. It's probably because India is generally a more liberal country than nations where there is a Muslim majority. I guess this is also going to affect how Indian Muslims view/practice their religion.

Punjabi boy

I am talking in real terms of girls being dressed in burqa's with only slits for their eyes.

Your accusation of sophistry, while apprently valid is incorrect. Youa re not familair with how I think and its easy to see what I say as fake.
It is not. In an environement, where there is a danger of women being assaulted as majority men are still at baser levels of existence, it may be a fair way of protecting a girl. (I have other simialr examples, nothing to do with Islam)Its like going into a jungle with bears, with no guns. Burqa may be valid protection in a certain society. You may not be aware of what kind of men live under the roof of a girl in burqa.

Also, if a woman defnies herself by physical charactersitics only, then she will also find comfort in wearing a burqa.

What I am trying to point out is, it is not as consistent a reality that one might imagine.

Sumita

mehfil

I reckon there is a big difference between dressing a girl in a burqa and conditioning a boy to wear a turban - dont you? Personally I believe Sikh parents need to chill out with their kids in the diaspora a little - but the two are not comparable.

The comparison is between a hijab and a turban - and you will never find a Sikh who says there is anything wrong with a hijab, or not fight for the right of Muslims to wear the hijab (like Sikhs in England did over the France ban)

Sumita

Yeah I know - all that relativism - women are to blame for men lusting after them and Muslim men cant be trusted not to molest a woman who is not covered up - isnt that quite condescending to Muslim men?

Jai

because some of his male followers complained that they were finding women spiritually distracting. Apparently one of his follower's children suggested the idea of keeping women away from male eyes in order to solve the problem, and Mohammad thought it was the perfect solution.

I am not aware of the specific history but am keenly aware of this dynamic and spiritual quest. These are topics I explore in my writing too. This problem is not limited to Muslims but is a struggle for integration that is similar across religions and cultures. There are many wonderful discussions and viewpoints on this.

Sumita

women are to blame for men lusting after them and Muslim men cant be trusted not to molest a woman who is not covered up - isnt that quite condescending to Muslim men?

Yes it is but, as I mentioned in post #20, unfortunately this is exactly how this mindset originated in Islamic history. It's basically an externalisation of the issue, ie. you try to control the external environment in order to prevent any negative impact on you, rather than taking primary responsibility for how you react to the external influence and thereby doing your best to control your own reactions internally.

Punjabi Boy

isnt that quite condescending to Muslim men?

Check my comment to Jai(no 24) (which i wrote beofre reading yours). You will find the answer to whether my thoughts are consistent or not.

Let me put it like this. If I lived in a society where men forced me to wear a burqa, I'd wear one in a heartbeat with no protest. In my survivalistic intelligence I would see where that forcing would come from.

However I would also plot my escape from such a society with precision described in many great escape films. (and hopefully succeed)

Sumita

However I would also plot my escape from such a society with precision described in many great escape films. (and hopefully succeed)

Would it involve digging a tunnel?

Punjabi Boy,

Would it involve digging a tunnel?

God, i cant stop laughing. Yes, it would mean digging a tunnel, and many other things, including pretending to be a dead body that gets thrown into the sea(Monte Cristo) Only am petrified of water so dont know how it would work.

Why, would you help if I asked for assistance in escaping from burqa prison?

*laughing*

Sumita

Sumita

If it involves digging a tunnel I am with you - I have always wanted to escape by using a tunnel - we have to think about where to hide the mitti though - any ideas?

Other options include a helicopter landing in the middle of all these people who are chasing after us - we jump on the rope ladder and hold on as we take off in the air holding on for our lives.

And in "shawshank redemption" he crawls through two football stadia length sewer pipes...

Hmmm, would wearing a burqa be easier? There's a thought, a stinky one.

Sumita

Those are the only options - tunnels and helicopters - theres no other way to escape.

Sumita,

You've forgotten the following

Fool-proof escape method:

Hike up your skirt and negotiate a ride by showing some leg.

You could find an old motorbike mysteriously lying around and then jump over the barbed-wire fence, Steve McQueen-style....;)

Deal!!
Helicopter it is. Who doesnt like to fly, that too into freedom?

Nice closing shot in a film.

Sumita

we have to think about where to hide the mitti though

You could hide the mitti inside your turban. You'd end up with a pretty big pug by the end of it all, though -- like Shahrukh Khan in Paheli. Or a Nihang. You'd have to make sure you don't move your head around too much otherwise the top-heaviness would make you fall over, which would be a bit of a give-away.

Christopher

Good try but let me tell you, many who have tried that method, have ended up in unpalatable places

aha!! Am not falling for that one!!

(never forget Sanjay and Geeta chopra)

Am sticking to helicopter, and full view of all.Waaaay safer!!!(YOu see I have spent time thinking of such ridiculous things)

Sumita

having spent quite a few yrs in the mideast , wud like to add my two bits here. Hiking up the skirt may not work . At the best it might invite red spray and at worst a rape . There have been incidents of women being taken into the desert, assaulted and then left there to die of eventual dehydration .

Helicopter it is. Who doesnt like to fly, that too into freedom?

I dont have a very good grip though - I would probably fall off the rope ladder as the helicopter soars away and fall into a garbage truck going back into the prison - knowing my luck that is what will happen.

If we dig the tunnel, can we dig it with spoons?

Nice closing shot in a film.

You could rip off your burkha and fling it to the ground at the gawping fundies, in a final act of defiance. Just make sure you don't wear too short a skirt while you're flying away, otherwise you really will give your former oppressors an image they'll never forget.

Although I'm sure our friend Uncleji would like to see that sort of thing, the randy old silver mongoose.

Punjabi boy

Please no spoons. the helicopter it is, Now if your grip is weak, learn a good nautical knot. (any scouting experience. worry not, I can teach you)

Jai

No flinging of burqa. I learnt in my film class, things left unsaid add to the drama. The flying away is enough.There could even be a sequel where I question my right to wear a burqa in Western society( and bring us right back to this thread)

*laughing*

Sumita

I dont have a very good grip though - I would probably fall off the rope ladder as the helicopter soars away and fall into a garbage truck going back into the prison - knowing my luck that is what will happen.

True but you'd probably be okay back in prison, because by that time you'd have become friends with the wisest old guy there, and some Hell's Angels biker-type will have somehow become very protective of you after initially terrifying you. And, of course, the nastiest gangsters inside will leave you alone after you've done a few thousand sit-ups on an inclined bench like Tom Selleck in that movie and you stab the thug harrassing you the most when you corner him in the toilets.

Don't forget the part where you somehow help out one of the fellow inmates who's paroled before you are, and he "owes you a big favour" when you're released. And then your revenge begins....

The helicopter it is then - I get claustrophobia in tunnels anyway and would get panic attacks which is the last thing you need when you are escaping.

We could ask the helicopter driver to put velcro or super glue on the rope ladder for added grip.

No flinging of burqa. I learnt in my film class, things left unsaid add to the drama. The flying away is enough

You might get mistaken for Batman, with your black burqa flapping around you while you're hanging onto that helicopter....

"Parents and coaches of a Calgary junior soccer team... Northwest United was competing in a tournament in this Vancouver suburb"

Did the incident occur in Calgary or Vancouver?

Earlier this year a Vancouver youth was attacked and had his patka torn off.

The crisis is over:

Gurinder Dhah scored no goals, didn't even get an assist yesterday, but he made it onto the soccer field in Langley and that's a big enough victory for the 17-year-old player.

The Calgary high-school student was told he couldn't play in a soccer tournament on the weekend because of his patka, a head scarf worn by Sikh men.

My mother also has similar friends (who did not wear burqa and would die laughing if one asked them to. I do think Muslims from India have something that is not in line with the stereotypes I hear/see in the rest of the world.

The proportion of women who wear Burqa is significantly higher in Delhi, UP then it is in Pakistan.
The only part of Northern Hindustan where women dont wear Burqas in large numbers is Pakistani Punjab.
I have been to rural Punjab in Pakistan and very few women there wear a burqa.
The burqa among the poor is ubiquitous in Old Delhi and all over UP.
The Muslims Sumita met were probably middle class or upper class. Poor Muslims ( who are the overwhelming majority) almost always wear burqas.
Take a walk through Old Delhi and you can see that.

Punjabi Boy,
You obviously dont have/appreciate freedom of religion and hence your starry-eyed support for the hijab ban in France and a potential Burqa ban in UK.

Al Mujahid

I dont support any ban of a hijab - what are you talking about?

True,
My reference to the hijab ban was erroneous.

I think if the Sikh kid was in a public school in the US, this would have raised serious first amendment violation problems.
Maybe they need to enact a similar constitutional protection in Canada.

Anna,
Canada is generally more "chill", except Calgary is NOT Canada. Calgary is somewhat more like the Houston, Texas of Canada; they love their beef, oil, bars called "Cowboys", ranching, country music, the Conservative Party, and Patriotism, and the like. Google search Calgary and racism and deny entrance and barr and so on, and you will see plenty of newsworthy evidence of this low-life behaviour (http://gauntlet.ucalgary.ca/story/2613): this incident was no accident. Yuck. If you ever visit Alberta Canada, you're better off heading north to Edmonton, or better yet, straight to Banff.

And to add balance to what seemed to be a flippant way to deal with a serious issue, the woman who insists on exposing her body with dependence on a legal system to protect her, rather than her own wisdom in dealing with "forces of nature" is as much stuck in physical realities as the person who forces a woman to wear a burqa.

Its important to see burqa has its place, which should be respected.

Sumita

AM

The Muslims Sumita met were probably middle class or upper class.

Correct.And one hopes, set good examples to the poor ones in thought and deed

Sumita

Although I'm sure our friend Uncleji would like to see that sort of thing, the randy old silver mongoose.

My dear Chap actually I've been there and done that. Indeed for your dear uncleji "less is more" there's something about a woman in a shapeless tent of cloth that gets the blood pumping and of course it leaves so much to imagination.

Sunita: My Dear I'll get the drinks while you slip into something infinitely more uncomfortable...

Punjabi Boy:Hmmm tunnels hey You don't also like trains, do you ? Thats quite interesting in Freudian Analysis....

Anyway Sunita you could glide flying squirrel style off the helicopter into my welcoming ar...(Auntieji garrotts Uncleji with her Chuhi)

Al Mujahid,
We do have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms, circa 1981, which I believe, does protect religious rights. If you have a suggestion, maybe you should look into it first. This incident had nothing to do with the Charter and our rights - it was racist and the referree acted on his bigotry, pure and simple. He didn't consult the law and the legality of what he was doing before he acted, as most losers do not: he just did it cuz HE'S A F'N MORON. If this went as far as the courts, he would be toast! Having certain rights and freedoms, does not prevent people from violating them. I don't understand your comment. Racist shit happens in the U.S. all the time despite the constitution. It's just a piece of legislation to refer to - it doesn't necessarily prevent any violations. Wus your point, Al Mujahabid?

Uncleji

Thank you for your kind offer but am allergic to alcohol(woe is me). also my kids now need my attention. Very nice to meet you!!

Sumita

Sumita,

And to add balance to what seemed to be a flippant way to deal with a serious issue, the woman who insists on exposing her body with dependence on a legal system to protect her, rather than her own wisdom in dealing with "forces of nature" is as much stuck in physical realities as the person who forces a woman to wear a burqa.

Its important to see burqa has its place, which should be respected.

Hmm. I don't know. A woman should be able to wear whatever she likes (or to not wear, depending on the skimpiness of her outfit) without any man thinking he has the right to force himself on her, regardless of how aroused he may become by her. I don't buy this "forces of nature" argument -- and I'm speaking as a man. A woman's provocative behaviour and/or dress may well elicit a physiological/psychological response in any men in her vicinity, and this "internal" reaction will be involuntary to a great extent; however, whether the guy subsequently chooses to do anything about it is under his voluntary control, and he therefore bears sole responsibility for his action (or inaction, as the case may be).

Despite the stereotype -- and indeed cultural encouragement of this idea -- in some parts of the world, men aren't wild animals who become overcome with sexual urges beyond their control if sufficiently provoked by a woman. And if the woman is living in a society where there is less pressure on the men to "control themselves" in such situations, with simultaneous blame being placed on the woman for "provoking" the response, I think that indicates something pretty negative about the society and the culture in which the aforementioned people may live.

It's basically encouraging men to behave like children, ie. not taking responsibility for their reactions and behaviour in these situations.

Jai

Could not agree with you more.

Sumita

Fudo' have a sense of humour too.....
from Gulf haven for exotic species
After lunch at the pool, the Bahraini family was again sitting near me, the husband and children in swimming costumes, but the wife still completely covered.

Then the Filipina arrived, swathed in a black fishnet robe, an attendant padding behind her with a pile of towels.

Her hair was immaculate and around her neck hung a splendid string of pearls. She peeled off the fishnet robe to reveal a bathing costume that would have turned heads even in Rio de Janeiro, as it totally exposed her buttocks.

I looked over to the family to watch their reaction, expecting some expression of outrage.

But instead, from deep within the black shroud of the wife, a gurgle of laughter emerged that turned into a torrent of mirth, echoed by seabirds passing overhead.

Jai,

Discrimination for both men and women, is key.

It is gracious of you to acknowledge that women shoud wear whatever they want.Similarly gracious women will find the right balance of style, taste and eroticism in how their present themselves

Women have found many freedoms. They also need to learn to express these in beautiful ways, rather than childish rebellion.

Sumita

Jai

A woman's provocative behaviour and/or dress may well elicit a physiological/psychological response in any men in her vicinity, and this "internal" reaction will be involuntary to a great extent; however, whether the guy subsequently chooses to do anything about it is under his voluntary control, and he therefore bears sole responsibility for his action (or inaction, as the case may be).

To add a bone to the discussion, please note my highlight. A smart woman recognises her role in this "shared responsibility" A man who thinks this is his sole reponsibility may be in danger of thinking women are merely "babes" with no choice, control and understanding of their realities. It is not a widespread danger yet, but very well might be.

Sumita

Sumita

Jay said

Earlier this year a Vancouver youth was attacked and had his patka torn off.

That turned out to be a hoax, the kid made it up so he could cut his hair.

Sumita Auntie,

I'm curious. If this were a live gathering of single, childless 20-somethings, would you similarly dominate the conversation and sanctimoniously talk at everyone? Would you even attend such an event?

I don't think you would. I don't think you'd want to be the sad Auntie that everyone feels sorry for ("Why is she even here?") but tries to escape conversing with despite such sympathy ("OMG, don't encourage her or she won't stop.") I think you're better than that.

You initially said you wanted to get a sense for 2nd gen angst etc, because of your own two young children...I thought that was so progressive and sensitive of you. But if you're genuinely trying to understand what we go through, short of asking the *occasional* question to clarify things, why would you overtake the very discussion you're supposedly trying to observe?

I dont think Sumita is sanctimonious - I think she is nice and we cracked a few jokes together. She wants to escape by helicopter which is better than tunneling and this is good advice. And I personally do not mind if a few Aunties drop by because we all need an Aunty in the area once in a while. Dont be nasty to Aunty Sumitaji.

A smart woman recognises her role in this "shared responsibility"

I really don't like the tone of this, it could so quickly slide into the "she asked for it because she was wearing a miniskirt" crap. I know that's not what you're saying, but you really are reducing men to animals if you think they have to rape every woman they see merely if they expose some flesh. I mean, I see plenty of ads for chocolate all day long, and people selling them in shops, and I'm constantly tempted. But I don't have to freaking tear into every one I see when I'm drooling and my stomach is rumbling and my blood sugar is low, because I'm a responsible adult in civilized society, and therefore can control my desires. I'm with Jai -- it's the man's sole responsibility. Europeans have nude beaches and the men don't lose their minds, do they? There was an Indian blogger recently asking why men were so pervy and prone to assaulting women almost everywhere but Goa, where the sight of bikinis doesn't provoke any response at all, and the guy wanted to know why Indian men were so different there. Most people can behave if society expects them to. But if you tell a group of men Allah wants them to forcibly cover their women because they can't control their willies, then they'll act accordingly, like the Saudis -- hide the women at home, hump the prostitutes abroad.

Bachi, don't be a meanie. We like having Aunty Sumita here. Dunno what she'll ever learn from us tho. Declarative statements don't leave much room for a question or discussion.

You better apologize for calling her "sanctimonious" or you'll get two tight slaps, just wait!

Where was I nasty? Look, all I'm saying is, she should take her cue from Uncleji, who was widely welcomed and is quite adored. He brings alcohol to the party AND he's funny.

I'm not going to comment the way I normally would if my MOM is here and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. Uncleji doesn't inspire such reservations. I'm not anti-Auntie at all.

I'm not anti-Auntie at all.

I'm glad to hear it. Aunties are vital. We need Aunties. Stop playa hating Aunties.

I wonder how many Aunties and Uncles lurk here?

Does it make you wary?

Are they spying on us?

Imagine them huddled together at one of those dinner parties whispering about what they read on this website - shame shame shame.

I'm not going to comment the way I normally would if my MOM is here

Thats actually really sweet (cho chweet!) but its not like they know who you are - so f**k it! Swear! Link to porn! Desribe how you are smoking a joint as you type!

(You never know they could be a wild Aunty type - you know the sort - every middle class Desi party has a wild Aunty with just a hint of Mrs Robinson to her)

But if you tell a group of men Allah wants them to forcibly cover their women because they can't control their willies,

Ha Ha Ha brilliant !

Oh yeah - all those who are playa hating Aunties and uncles - remember one day you will be an Aunty or Uncle too.

Chew on that young bloods! Your youth and beauty passes and you too shall have to move into the realm and role of Grumpy Uncle/Funny Uncle/Embarassing uncle/Bastard Uncle or Nagging Aunty/Hypocrite Aunty/Bitch Aunty/Flirty Aunty - so which one is it going to be eh?

Some people cannot face the truth - its like death - we cannot avoid it - I already feel the change when I am with my nephews. I am moving into the area of Feckless Bachelor Uncle - the one the relatives never mention for fear of the children asking too many questions about why he isnt married etc etc etc

Everything changes in the end.

Everything changes in the end

*Punjabi Boy stares at the ground...as the shadow of a hooded cloaked figure holding a scyth looms ever closer*

Cheer up, O feckless one! I'll pop over, bring drinks and we'll show them that bachelor uncle and spinster aunty have still got some life to yet to live ;)

Cheer up, O feckless one! I'll pop over, bring drinks and we'll show them that bachelor uncle and spinster aunty have still got some life to yet to live

Oh my God you just reminded me - if there is one bigger leper in the desi system than Feckless Bachelor Uncle who is sometimes glimpsed by the children holding hands with a 19 year old blonde or Spanish girl it is Spinster Aunty!

Spinster Aunty is treated like the Mad Woman in the Attic in Jane Ayre - the perennial bad example - never to be mentioned or talked about and when the children ask after her the subject is changed quick time! Especially to daughters to whom she is a living example of what happens if you dont listen to what your Father and Mother tell you - the eternal example of the BDIW (Bad Disobedient Indian Woman).

In fact often the nephews or nieces of Spinster Aunty dont even know she exists until aged fifteen or sixteen.

On the middle class dinner party circuit Spinster Aunty is always seen with a glass of red wine in her hand and is feared by Holy & Normal Aunties because they know she was in love with a white man called Christopher for 12 years and has never recovered from it - when she is in the area they fear for their husbands - and as their son turns sixteen they fear for him too (thats why desi boys going through puberty love 'family friend' Spinster Aunty)

Yeah no doubt whatsoever Spinster Aunty - she is the best! Thanks for reminding me!

(You never know they could be a wild Aunty type - you know the sort - every middle class Desi party has a wild Aunty with just a hint of Mrs Robinson to her

That sounds like a confession Punjabi Boy. So while the ladies was playing tash and the men was drinking and comparing property prices, a special auntyji was making you a man.

Boy have I been attending the wrong kind of Kitty Parties.

Thanks for the praise bachi but....
a 1970's mercedes S-class screechs to a halt outside bachi home, Uncleji and his fudo nephew leap out (well Uncleji tumbles out). Using his highly oversized belly Uncleji smashes the door, as the fudo nephew uses his gatka skills unleash the Paratha of doom, spinning butter enhanced roti shapes which immobilse the victim with a calorific overload. Bachi is helpless as Uncleji buries him in flakes of hair fixer, as he whips out his tatee of doom (Punjabi boy will explain) and disfigures bachi youthful features.

So laid off my lady

Hey

*laughing hard*

Relax, no such fears. No sanctimonious lectures. Am happy to be taught.

Its all in fun.

Auntie Sumita

Uncleji

Are you really an uncle? I mean seriously? Or is it just a persona?

thats why desi boys going through puberty love 'family friend' Spinster Aunty

That sounds like the special Auntji to me.
One hint of my rustic charms and my flowing beard and she'll pine for Christopher no more.

I'm up for a drinkie as long its Mr Valker with at least two gallons of soda so that I pretend to drink you under the table.

Did you read that guys? Sumita is one of the Happy Reasonable Aunties - the Aunty who will take your side when you decide to marry a white man or a Mexican woman and your family do the whole 'Get out of my house you are not my son/daugher anymore' melodrama routine

Leave her alone - you might need her support one day ;-)

Take my word for it, Auntie Sumita is hot.

she was in love with a white man called Christopher for 12 years

...Damn...I knew she wanted too many cello lessons...

Ah-ho.

I don't think Sumita's old enough to be an "Aunty" in the strict sense of the jargon....

Punjabi Boy -- Don't forget "Randy Uncle" (gropes his friends' twentysomething daughters, especially after he's had a galassy or three), and "Paranoid Aunty" (ridiculously over-protective of her daughter -- thinks you're after the girl if you even glance in her direction).

Oh yeah: Made-it-big Uncle ("I came to this country with only £2.50 in my pocket and now I have 3 Mercs parked in the driveway) – currently being investigated for medical malpractice / tax fraud / insider trading.

Competitive Aunty ("My son's been married for 5 years and has 3 kids, why isn't your son married yet ?").

Delusional Uncle/Aunty ("My daughter's such a sweet and innocent little flower" -- who was actually tearing the roof off at every club in Ibiza and Aiya Nappa with her gaggle of dodgy girlfriends this summer).

Social-climbing/Status-chasing Uncle/Aunty ("So...your son's a doctor....Have you met my daughter ?").

Well, while we’re discussing stereotypes, let’s not ignore the following:

Good Indian Son (GIS) :Became a doctor, had an arranged marriage to a girl he met in India while he and his parents were on a bride-hunting expedition, got engaged to her after meeting her 3 times, now they live with his parents. (Wife is secretly miserable because “It’s nothing like Mumbai / Delhi here”).

Bad Indian Female Family Friend (BIFFF) :Has made it her mission to sleep with the sons of all her parents’ desi friends. Experiencing quite a high success rate. Not too popular with the older generation, obviously. Aunties are terrified of her, except for Wild Aunty. BIFFF has a high probability of turning into Wild Aunty in her later years if she ever gets married.

Stubbornly Unmarried Son / Daughter (SUS/D) : Rapidly approaching 30 or is already in his/her early 30s. Engaged in battle of wills with his/her parents, refuses to have an arranged marriage to someone of their choice. Playing a game of chicken with parents to see who flinches first. Is often friends with BIFFF, Spinster Aunty, or Feckless Bachelor Son (or is indeed one of these people him/herself).

Born-Again Good Indian Girl (BAGIG) : Used to be BIFFF until marriage. Now denies all knowledge of her spreadin’-da-love premarital activities and insists she’s a dedicated wife. Husband (often Good Indian Son – GIS) is clueless about her previous extracurricular hobbies.

Dont forget Fundamentalist Uncle and Terrorist Aunty - they hit a certain age and dont shut up about religion and how their religion is so aggrieved and yadda yadda yadda

Spinster Aunty is still my favourite though.

ah-ho.

PB -- Your comments about Wild Aunty is so true (the Mrs Robinson type) -- you know, the tall leggy one who insists on turning up to the dinner parties wearing a really short mini-dress to show off her legs while all the other aunties are swathed in heavy silk sarees and shalwaar kameezes. We actually know someone like that -- my mother, God bless her, tries to get me the hell away from her if she notices Wild Aunty giving me too much attention !

lol

I bet Sushmita Sen is going to turn into a Mrs Robinson-type Wild Aunty or Spinster Aunty when she's older -- you can already see the signs....;)

Good god, Jai Singh! I could swear you were at my mother-in-law's last dinner party! :)

Except for the one character you forgot: Two-Faced Desi Beta/Beti

2FDB comes to the party in classic, respectable desi clothing. Eats nicely with their right hand only, helps all the aunties in the kitchen, engages all the uncles in one-track conversations, and while everybody is relaxing after the meal, they either sneak around the back of the garage to smoke pot/cigarettes or drink, or they take off, feigning a need to study, but instead they're off to meet their skanky friends at some hole-in-the-wall club. When they meet their friends, they'll tell stories about "the most sufferable stupid desi thing" they just came from...

Naaah - not Sushmita Sen - in twenty years time this lady is going to turn out to be Wild Aunty Number 1

No doubt about it - Bipasha Aunty has all the ingredients.

Good one DesiDancer!

And dont forget Career Uncle - the one who doesnt shut up interrogating you about what you want to do with your life and how you have to focus and blah blah blah and plan and yaa yaa yaa

Don't mean to interrupt the family-banter, but speaking of Sikhs... Is there any way you (Anna or Manish or Vinod or Ennis or et al), can pop this news about GHANAIA and other hurricane-relief efforts into SM:

"...The North American chapter of UNITED SIKHS, an international non-profit human welfare organization, has launched the Katrina Hurricane Relief project, under its GHANAIA (Giving Humanitarian Aid Necessities and Assistance Impartially to All) initiative, setting its base camp at Baton Rouge, 85 miles North of New Orleans. This is the second major relief project conducted under the GHANAIA initiative, after the Asian tsunami disaster of 2004 (more...)"

There are a number of gurdwaras, from Florida to California, raising funds for hurricane relief and some, if not most, are funneling money through GHANAIA. Many Hindu temples in the States have Katrina Relief Funds, Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh USA in Houston is raising funds and working directly with refugees and SEWA USA has a nationwide, networked fundraising & relief effort underway. The Islamic Society of North America, the Muslim American Society and perhaps most notably, Islamic Relief (which includes (CAIR), have all initiated long-ranging and thus far, highly successful fundraising campaigns. In addition, a number of Indian-owned motels and hotels have agreed to house refugees and many individual business-owners are sending bulk aid-shipments (food, clothing, OTC medicine, child- & infant-care supplies, etc.), via private ground transportation and when published news about this is available, contact information will be posted.

Unfortunately and fortunately, the tsunami prepared most organizations for fundraising of this nature. Only a few are accepting funds for direct application toward specific inviduals and circumstances (e.g. the submerged New Orleans gurdwara and the approximately fifty Sikh families relocated from New Orleans and Biloxi to refugee-centers), the rest are collecting money for everyone. Spread the word and if you can give, do so.

DesiDancer -- 2FDB is often identical to BIFFF. Her respectable persona is a front to enable her to infiltrate the desi inner circles and seduce their sons (often GIS) with her leggy wiles and promises to do "all the things their future arranged-marriage-wives won't"....

Punjabi Boy -- We can't forget Coconut Uncle and his wife Coconut Aunty, who insist on being as "white" as possible in every aspect of their lifestyle and speech, despite being from the most hardcore desi background back in India you can image. Coconut Uncle and Coconut Aunty will absolutely insist on continuously speaking to all the other Uncles and Aunties in English even though they all speak Punjabi / Gujarati / whatever fluently. Coconut Uncle and Coconut Aunty are mortal enemies of Fundamentalist Uncle and Terrorist Aunty -- like Superman and Lex Luthor.

i believe middle eastern women wear abayas not burquas. don't know if it iz the same word for 2 things, they look the same to me.

Why thank you Christopher!!Am flattered.

But what cello lessons? That was the spinster aunty. Did you mix us up again?Darn.!! More attention needed.

And here is one bored auntie's version of desi parties.

The men and woman separate and this is how the conversation goes :

The men discuss topics where they solve all world economic and social problems a-la movers and shakers.(banking, stocks, companies, desi-vs NRI life, who is going back to india, and bi*tch about taxes. They drink as though alcohol is going out of style.

The women huddle close together and discuss jewellery, movies, children and these days (ugh!) botox and plastic surgery.
The conversation is canned and entirely predictable.

Bored aunty keeps looking at her watch wanting to go home. At other times, she makes silly excuses(I have a laundry list of those) to get out of these parties. These days she has figured out the perfect way. Come late and leave early and blame it on the kids( they are tired and cranky)or the handiman who always has to come the day the party is on.

LOL

Auntie Sumita.

Dogday -- You should log onto the Sikhnet. com Discussion Forum as soon as possible and post that message there as a "New Topic". Plenty of people will read it -- Sikhnet's very popular.

Kind regards,
Jai

Razib's arrival reminds me of Scientist Uncle - with a Phd in Bio-Chemical Astro Physics from Cambridge or Harvard, he will stare at the wall for an age at a party and speculate as to the trigonometry of a samosa and when you crack a joke he says, 'But that is not logical. How can a monkey speak? It is not Logical'

Good Lord! We're all of you at the last party thrown by my Made-it-Big uncle?!!

Where I got yelled at by career uncle for being such a SUD while my cousins bitched about having to cover for me whever I snuck out for a cig, classic two-faced beti style?

Where my teenage boy cousins carefully approached me, wanting to talk about their non-desi girlfriends, since I'm so much older I may as well be their spinster aunty?? But we never got to talk cause their moms, my paranoid aunties whisked them away from my BDIW clutches?

Where Randy Uncle kept bringing me more drinks, while competitive aunty looksed smugly away from me to her shitty little BAGIG daughter??

SPIES!!

cicatrix

Can you feel the chill wind of Auntiedom on your face? It is slowly creeping up on you - not long to go now until you are no longer just cicatrix - you are Cicatrix Aunty with all that entails.

Ah, screw you, feckless bachelor Punjabi Uncle!

While you live in fear of being Randy Uncle, I will embrace my spinster status when it comes....which it won't...not for at least another, 20 yea-... er, 15.. er...

It is slowly creeping up on you

might be a reason we only see half her face....

The women huddle close together and discuss jewellery, movies, children and these days (ugh!) botox and plastic surgery. The conversation is canned and entirely predictable.

I thought they were all busy hating on whichever ladies and their kids weren't at the party. Scrutinizing their lives, insulting their un-hip wardrobes, picking apart their home decorative sense, trashing their poori-making technique... all the cattiness that desi aunties live and breathe for!

Jai Singh- 2FDB takes Bharatanatyam classes or studies Sanskrit, to their parents' delight. But when mummy-daddy are away at these auntie-parties, the kids go out wearing jeans that show their kadche and do nasty grinding dancing to 50 Cent and R Kelly. din-din-na-na indeed! And yes, if left unmoderated, 2FDB may turn into Pervert Uncle or BIFFF. So corrupt these vestern vays, hai ram!

cicatrix

No chance of me embracing my Unclehood gracefully - I reckon I'm going to be Alcoholic Uncle - the one who makes a fool of himself at parties and weddings so nobody ever invites him to a 'programme' ever again and who needs a liver transplant after his business fails. Dies lonely. On welfare. With no teeth. Drinking from a can of petrol.

Desi dancer

Nah! am still in nascency of auntiedom. It begins innocently enough. Slowly gains crescendo I guess as all describe.(shudder, shudder) Peer group is not there yet.

Wistful Auntie

PB

Dies lonely. On welfare. With no teeth. Drinking from a can of petrol.

Dont say that. For all the kindness that you showed me today, there is help to be found in auntiedom. Since I will be in an ashram then,(my sneaky suspicions tell me)you can hang there and get free food. (even get ganja)

Sumita

What about Waste Management Engineer Uncle?

This is the uncle that corners you during the intermission of a Bollywood Spectacle like Veer-Zaara and complains that there has never been a spicey Bollywood spectacle with a Waste Management Engineer as the love interest.

Okay...er...I didn't think it qualified as a stereotype...just something weird that happened to me...I wanted to get it off my chest...

Sumita

you can hang there and get free food. (even get ganja)

I said before that you were from the Kind and Understanding school of Aunty's - I look forward to rolling a spliff with you in my Ashram.

Are you sure you're not Wild Aunty in disguise?

Christopher

Thats wild!

That really happened? Was the guy drunk?

Sumita

(Or are you maiking this up?)

btw, re: dress codes and what not. i'm surprised no one has brought up the issue of distinctive conformity as being essential for group cohesion. i mean, a lot of the ritual purity taboos and what not common among hindus, muslims and jews derive from the need to set outgroup vs. ingroup. i know muslims are technically not supposed to take food from 'pagans' (ie; jews and christians are OK). in the letters of paul in the NT he even addresses the point about eating food that has been consecrated to idiols (i believe he said it was OK if you were strong in your faith, but if you weren't, avoid it).

i have made the analogy between women who wear burquas at their job as a wells fargo teller and girls who insist are being gothic piercers, it's a statement of distance from the rest of the society about how cool you are. in the case of religious or ethnic groups who dress or behave different it is often a self-assertion of group coolness, ie; the higher up you go in caste the more food and purity taboo issues you have, in muslim majority areas under strict shariah there were explicit ways in which dhimmis were not to pollute muslim public spaces (the term "dirty kufir" is highly appropriate). i have reading instances of big disputes between chinese muslims and the majority han population, and many of them refer to hygiene related conflicts. i strongly suspect that "hygiene related" is a mistranslation of what's really going on, that is "ritual pollution" related conflicts (the fact that chinese eat pork is often a central issue).

in the USA we tend to look at these issues from a legalistic-individual perspective. muslim girls often present the functional, utilitarian aspects of hijab or burqas, that they promote modesty and self-control of their sexuality and allow other people to view them as individuals rather than sex objects. i think that's disingenuous because by wearing a hijab or burqa you probably bring MORE eyeballs your direction in the USA and further exoticize yourself. there are obviously some familial and community pressures, but in american muslim communities where it isn't normative yet i think part of the practice is the raising up of group identifiers of US vs. them and i suspect an actualization of some values about group purity vs. outsider pollution. in other words, burqas are symbolic markers delineating a difference and cleavage in society. and that bothers me. western liberal democratic societies can tolerate a certain amount of diversity of substructure, but beyond a certain point this groupishness tends to subborn fellow feeling of citizenship. imagine if amish were 1% of the population as opposed to .01% (reductio ad absurdum). or hasidic jews were 5% of the population as opposed to .1%.

Genetics Uncle

Writes posts like the above.

PB

My hubby is a Punjab-da-puttar. Me bangali(Ok fake, not really) kudi.

No chance of me being wild aunty. See?(now relax)Ever seen a wild aunty married to Punjab-da-puttar?

I didnt think so!!
*laughing very hard*

Auntie Sumita

Hey Punjabi Boy, you could be the desi Henry Darger!!!

Only don't go the alcohol route. passe. Bukowski made other drinkers look like kids hugging juice-boxes. Darger went with Pepto-Bismol, so I suggest something equally random and esoteric. NyQuil? Sizzurp??

But first, remember to bring inappropriate gifts when invited to parties. Quickest way to get off invite lists. I suggest anything with a sexual overtone. Especially for sweet sixteens.

Advice for me?

Dont forget the tragic ones:

Widow Aunty and Widower Uncle

They are always the really nice ones too.

dude, i'm 28 and all my siblings are younger than me (by a bunch). so i ain't no uncle.

cicatrix

Tennesse Williams choked to death on a bottle top. Anything less embrassing than that would be a victory.

Any advice?

Go for it! Be Scandal Aunty! Becoming a legend! Break every taboo and then some! Screw 'em all!

I meant figuratively screw 'em all, not literally, although you know, its an option open to all, not particularly you, you know, just whatever...

Sumita

Yeah - Punjabi-Bengali combinatons is one of the best I reckon - cant beat it - winning team!

razib

LoL I was only joking man! I cant believe you are only 28 - I said it before - you are going to be the first Atheist Bangaldeshi American to win a Nobel Prize - I'm not kidding.

this thread is surely one reason i come to SM though. a peek at a transnational brown anglais dialect.

scandal aunty, eh?

well, I'm rather afraid that's already been done. At least as far as Sri Lankans go. No way I could top that.

*cicatrix vacillates between forlorn and relieved*

cicatrix

Thats not scandal - the real Scandal Aunty will be when Sunny Leone or Nadia Nyce are in their late forties and living back at home - then they will be Porno Aunty

hey cic, how come sri lanaka didn't become part of india? at least the tamil part? i mean, you guys are brown? do you have a really distincitive identity? like the british vs. continentals or something? always wondered....

how come sri lanaka didn't become part of india?

Sinhalese is a Pali variant that sounds nothing like other SA languages and has it's own script...that looks weirdly like Thai.
Details on the script.

Here's wiki on some very brief history/background.

Sri Lankan Tamil, while using the same script as the Southern Indian Tamil, has enough differences in accent, pronounciation, verb changes etc to almost be another dialect altogether.

India has never colonized sri lanka fully, although most Tamils in SL descend from waves of attempted invasions...The north Jaffna area was actually a Tamil kingdom for quite a while. Even the portuguese and the dutch never conquered the whole island since the SL kings just retreated to fortresses in the mountains.

It wasn't until the British (who came during a period of unrest in the Sinhala court, and told agitating courtiers that they would have Brit military backing to sieze the thrown if they killed the king. Of course, once the idiots did, that the Brits took over everything) that the whole country was conquered and the royal line bumped off.

cytokinesis defective isoalleles

i don't know jack about cytology (at least enough to ramble about).

and yeah, i've read about the kingdom of kandy and what not. but there were parts of indian (the highlands of the gonds) which were never assimilated into the brown powers of the day anyhow.

i guess what i'm asking is if you did a characteristic based cladogram would it be like so:

cluster A: mainland browns (pakistan, bangladesh, indian, nepal inclusive)

cluster B: sri lankan browns

or

cluster A: north indian browns

cluster B: east indian browns

cluster C: south indian browns

cluster D: sri lankan browns

and so on.

my family was friends with a sri lankan muslim family when we lived in pennsylvania. they were kind of strange in that they hung with browns all the time, but sometimes they would say things as if they were different somehow. also, they were tamil speakers by origin but their kids only spoke english (never taugh 'em tamil).

p.s. my underestanding genetically sri lankans cluster with south indians (with some european, arab, etc. mixed via some communities like burghers), while the philology of sinhalese is leaning more toward affinities with bengali than gujarati (though those are very distant anyhow).

cic, i'm specifically asking for your impressionistic perspective. i've read a bit of sri lankan history...but they don't get a sense as muc how sri lanka relates to brown mainland as much as how it evolved endogenously.

p.s. did you ever see arthur c. clarke? i know people have to ask you that now and then.

South Asia is such a fractious place, have there actually been any groups seeking to join with each other? Everyone just seems hellbent on splitting off.

But yeah, like Cicatrix said, various tamil kingdoms in southern india tried and failed and allied and unallied and mixed and unmixed with various sinhala kingdoms in sri lanka but i dont know if any one power ever even controlled the whole island, much less tried to annex it.

And the sinhalese are thought to be from northern india, originally

from personal experience, indian tamils are seen more as cousins rather than brothers, if that makes sense

and the aunty/uncle archetypes you guys made up are hilarious, and oh so fitting

"Sometimes they would say things as if they were different"

What do you mean? As if they were not brown? or not like other Indians?

As for cladograms..er, frankly I don't know. My guess is that it's closer to option two.

btw: There is an indegenous hunter-gatherer tribal group, still living in the forests of SL who are said to be (and most likely are) the real Sri Lankans. They've been ignored by everyone and are slowly assimilating/dying out. They are called Veddas in Sinhalese. From what I understand, at least in terms of mythology, Ravana (of Sita fame) was actually from this group, so this stupid Sinhala-Tamil squabbling means nothing when faced with the stregnth of their claim.

Sometimes they would say things as if they were different

they would be sitting a room filled with browns (almost all muslims, sometimes mixed-religion) from various parts of brownland. occassionally some of the urdu or hindi speakers would speak in their language assuming people would understand them and they would joke "oh you indians, not everyone speaks your language" and stuff like that. but when the other people would talk, they would speak inclusively as if the sri lankans were indian (1/3 of the people were from pakistan and my parents are bangladeshi, but the general sense). what i'm trying to say is that browns, whether pakistani, bangladeshi, muslim indian, hindu, christian, etc. etc. share certain references. partition. or spicy food. or hindu-muslim tensions. as a sri lankan are there many references that simply aren't applicable? ie; the hindu-muslim tensions are obviously not as salient since sri lanka is a buddhist nation with ethnic more than religious tensions.

as for the veddas, i understand that they speak sinhalese now and have a for while, so their indigenous cultures is to a large extent lost....

my personal impression of how SL related to the brown mainland?

Not at all.

Indian may well be Sweden for all most Sri Lankans care.

My aunt, a Sinhala/Pali teacher, saved up to go on a pilgrimage/tour of all the Buddhist sites still in India. She came back, amusingly shocked that people crapped on the streets there :)

This is back when I lived in SL. It's just a bit more laid-back (and, oddly or not, hot-tempered and violent) than mainland india. That warm climate island thing seems to have more of an influence. Reggae is huge ;)

And the sinhalese are thought to be from northern india, originally

the language is indo-european, but my understanding is that ancestrally they share much more with the tamil speakers, that is, it was likely elite transmission. i looked this up once out of curiosity, it was really difficult for geneticists to separate sinhalese from tamils into two components....

here are some CIA factbook numbers for sri lanka for the rest of us:

total population: 73.17 years
male: 70.6 years
female: 75.86 years (2005 est.)
1.85 children born/woman (2005 est.)
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 92.3%
male: 94.8%
female: 90% (2003 est.)

and tx cic. i think i got what i wanted (data wise).

oh dear, how could we have overlooked the 2 favorites of Goodness Gracious Me: Everything Comes From India Uncle, and I Could Make That At Home For Free Auntie!!

My favorite nickname for a few select family friends (behind their backs, of course): Jheri Curl Auntie, Tranny Auntie (she's a man, baby!), Eat & Run Uncle, Denture Smell Auntie, Rhythmically Challenged Auntie, and Kmart Uncle.

...and don't forget the Underachieving ABCD... subject of many a desperate family conference... the kid who spends his school years smoking pot and playing Dungeons and Dragons while all the other Jimmy Neutron/Doogie Howser/Richie Rich types are already planning for their first Nobel. When he/she finally gets a graduate degree... it's in a Humanities field. The horror...

/Not that I'd know anything about that...

oh dear, how could we have overlooked the 2 favorites of Goodness Gracious Me: Everything Comes From India Uncle, and I Could Make That At Home For Free Auntie!!

Ah, yes, I call that Uncle "In Vedic Times" Uncle. And let's not forget "I'm so damn proud of myself for talking to the younger set, I don't actually listen to what they're saying" Aunt/Uncle. And, of course, "When I was your age" Aunt/Uncle.

We called one woman with particularly unruly hair Bird's Nest Aunty. Unfortunately, this made her baldish husband Bird's Nest Uncle!

they would joke "oh you indians, not everyone speaks your language" and stuff like that. but when the other people would talk, they would speak inclusively as if the sri lankans were indian

Well, sure. I do the same thing. Within a brown group I make my Sri lankan-ness clearly known. When around non-browns I don't really make a fuss if they refer to me as Indian. I assume that outher South Asians would have some knowledge base, so being SL is an important (to me at any rate) distinction. Even non-browns, as they become acquaintances, or friends, are told pretty clearly every damn thing they'd need to know in order to understand that SL is not India.

I don't mind being considered Indian, at all. It's just that it would be false, wouldn't it? That's not were I grew up. It's a different soverign country, with language, history, culture, dress, aesthetic sense (much more minimalist than India) etc to go along with all that.

Of course, general references are shared and appreciated..British colonization and rule, curry (though SL food curries are nothing like what I eat in Indian restuarants. We don't use yoghurt or ghee, or cream everything, or use cheese. The curries are more liquid, with coconut milk, curry leaves, mustard seed, fenugreek etc being dominant flavors. As close to Thai or Phillipino food as it is to indian), saris, familial culture, etc.

Ok, small example. I chat up cabbies quite frequently, and if they are brown, they always ask if I'm Indian. When I say, nope, Sri Lankan, you should see the glee with which the Bangladeshi guys say, "ahhh!!! I am from Bangladesh!!!" It's sort of a secret, overshadowed-by-India society ;)

I understand that a pan-south-asian 'indentity', (questionable proposition, sure, but one I don't mind accepting) would be heavily India-influenced. I don't really have a problem with that. I sprinkle hindi words in my comments because there is a shared understanding, even though no one speaks Hindi in Sri Lanka, and I learned every one of those words after moving to NY. I don't mind an all-brown generalization. But within that generalization, if one were to discuss specifics, that I am decidedly Sri Lankan, not Indian.

er, does that make sense?

But within that generalization, if one were to discuss specifics, that I am decidedly Sri Lankan, not Indian.

of course. bengali cuisine is heavy on mustard oil too. i am aware of differences and would have difficulty relating to some aspects of brown culture even if was immersed in it because it is diverse. by intent was to ask if you feel that the fact that sri lanka is a separate island makes it even more different from indian than bangladesh, for example. i mean, "indian" national identities can't really be pushed back really far anyway....

btw: the avg literacy rate was as high as 97% in the early 80s. Fell since the war.

Oh my God. Have you people gone insane? What is going on with this thread? Someone needs to switch to decaff.
MD - Madhu Aunty.

*Yes, yes, ennis, I promise to read the links you sent and respond....only taking a small break from work.....

intent was to ask if you feel that the fact that sri lanka is a separate island makes it even more different from indian than bangladesh, for example. i mean, "indian" national identities can't really be pushed back really far anyway....

Well, I can't answer that since I don't know if a Bangladeshi would agree with me if I said it's more different. I don't know the degree to which a bangladeshi feels about it. But being an island does make the rest of the world seem a bit more remote, sure. And definitely that means not feeling connected to India in any way.

I brought up my aunt's visit to India as an example because to Sri Lankans living in SL, India is a foreign country. Much more so than visiting canada or Britain would be to an American. (well, a relatively cosmopolitan american. not the THEY DRIVE ON THE RIGHT! HOW WEIRD! sort of american)

The more I get to know about India/Indians (from living in NYC, heh hehh) the more I realize that SL is actually different. mr.cicatrix (no were not married) is half-punjabi, and he was really taken aback when first confronted with SL food. He kept asking for the bloody yoghurt. It was way spicy-hot and had a disturbing amount of small fishy elements ;)

Mustard seed, btw. Very different from the oil, in use.

I'm told by Bengali's that the Prince Vijay of the sinhala origin myth/story/fact was actually Bengali. I just know he's supposed to have been from some western part of india, north-ish. As for genetic differences between Tamil and Sinhalese...as a former Anthropology major, I'm trained to scoff at anything that tries to seperate people into genetic groups. So much is similiar, the differences are trivial, no?

And with that revalation I'm outed as an underachieving humanities leaning ABCD.. well, not the AB, and I dispute the C ;)

I brought up my aunt's visit to India as an example because to Sri Lankans living in SL, India is a foreign country. Much more so than visiting canada or Britain would be to an American.

I've only been to southern india (Trichy, Chennai, the parts between) but it's like a different world from SL. So much more poverty, crowding, garbage, the smell... culturally I have no idea, but in terms of development, worlds apart.

Desidancer, those sound similar to wholesaler uncle, who can find you anything for cheap!

Eat & Run Uncle, Denture Smell Auntie

Those two are hilarious! Gold Star for you today DD!!

...I'm trained to scoff at anything that tries to seperate people into genetic groups. So much is similiar, the differences are trivial, no?

depends. let me elaborate through two lines. first the phylogenetic. the 'hidden jews' of new mexico have an oral history that they hare descended from conversos who reverted to judaism in new spain. a few years ago an article in the atlantic monthly came out which 'debunked' these claims and posited (via anthropological sources) that these 'hidden jews' were actually indigenous converts to seventh day adventism (a christian sect with a lot of adherence to hebraic law) from the late 19th and early 20th century who had concocted a more prestigous white ancestry for themselves. well, some geneticists checked their DNA, and it turns out that their ancestral phylogenies are similar to that of cohens the world over (there is a lineage called the 'cohen modal haplotype' which is common in jewish groups throughout the world, from germany to india). so in this case, genetic differences do make a big difference, the debunking of the debunking of the cultural anthropologists would likely never have occurred. i myself accepted the anthropological explanation when i read the story in the atlantic (there were reasons the anthropologists were skeptical, there were other judaizing groups in mexico). one can do the same sort of thing to analyze the origin mythologies of most groups.

also, there are functional differences between groups. it is clear in food for instance, lactose tolerance vs. intolerance is 70:30 in north india and flipped in south india. and one reason that people of mixed-race often have difficult finding organ tissue matches is because of the diversity (and variation) in immune incompatibility signatures.

so to be frank, i am well aware that in anthropology and other social sciences genetics dismissed. in large part because of past uses and abuses. but i am not so skeptical for a variety of reasons :)

Desidancer, those sound similar to wholesaler uncle, who can find you anything for cheap!

Aren't Wholesaler Uncle and I Know A Guy Uncle cousins?

Oh hell, they're all cousins...

Punjabi Boy- oh dear,I could go on all day... Combover Uncle, Pants Too High Uncle, Cheap Henna Uncle (with the flaming red hair)... I haven't figured out a name that rolls off the tongue for the auntie whose sari fatrolls look like she has packs of hot dogs stuck to her sides...Oh and Topi Uncle (who wears a toupee that looks like a squirrel)

MD, yes, I'm *totally* losing it :D

DD - what about the Multiple-Chinned Aunty? I know one who had at least FIVE! I shit you not.

And maybe this is a FOB thing...but the uncles and aunties who still insist that coconut oil is the best for your hair? The ones, aunties especially, who don't realize their stash of the miracle pomade has gone a bit rancid? So each hug is a bit like being trapped in a rotting coconut?

... the uncles and aunties who still insist that coconut oil is the best for your hair?

That's a Mallu/Tamil thing AFAIK. Whereas Punjabi aunties love them the henna.

I don't think wearing turban is a religious requirement for sikhs. I don't see sikh women wearing turban. Does it make them less religious? I don't think the sikh god has one set of rules for men and another for women. Why is there no movement among sikh men to get rid of this anachronistic practice? I really feel sorry for sikhs; they have one additional burden to overcome for successful assimilation.

I just thought that it was cool this post had like 145 comments....

....

What? Did you expect me to say something substantial?

Bah.

I don't see sikh women wearing turban.

I don't think the sikh god

they have one additional burden to overcome for successful assimilation.

I

don't see sikh women wearing turban. Does it make them less religious?

Of course not because they don't look nice with a pujee and the ones that do have those eyes that never blink and burn with an frightening intensity especially when they talk about Godless infidels or especially when your dear Uncleji is simply proposing they marry my sister's, cousin's, brother's son who needs a visa who lives in a pit in Jagron with a family of goats. So I had a little drinkee, Can't she take a joke......

"I'm so damn proud of myself for talking to the younger set, I don't actually listen to what they're saying" Aunt/Uncle.

Oh yes the "I understand your problems of you young people and am unshockable Advise Auntie" A very dangerous aunty because either:
a) They think the problems of young people are restricted to getting a good job and a nice spouse. And when you tell them about your love for a non-Asian/ need to run away/ pregancy/ drug habit or causal experimenting with beastlity They just freak !
b) Its a ruse to provide material to blackmail you.

I'm adding international conspiracy uncle to the list.

commentator_desi

Thanks for making me laugh this morning - yours is the stupidest and most ignorant comment I ever read on this website - cheers dude! You must have a lot of issues there! Keep it up!

Cica- she can be Hot Dog Chins Auntie :)

My God, I can't believe the Uncle/Aunty malarkey on this thread is still going strong...

Here's a couple more:

Slap & Tickle Aunty : Insists on standing a little too close to you and has been trying to give you a kiss on the mouth since you were 10 years old "as a joke". And she's not even remotely as sexy as Wild Aunty, dammit.

Dysfunctional Uncle and Desperate Housewife Aunty : Completely mismatched personalities. Desperate Housewife Aunty was bullied into marriage to Dysfunctional Uncle by her parents just because he's a doctor / lawyer / chartered accountant. 40 years later, they have the marriage from hell, can't stand being around each other, and they think that nobody else knows about the wreckage that is the state of their marriage even though it's the worst kept secret in town. Those 6 month trips to India they keep taking independently of each other are a bit of a giveaway....

Commenter_desi : I think Uncleji's "nephew" has answered your question about the relation of turbans to Sikh men and women pretty succintly. However, if you really want to know more about this issue, I suggest you visit www.Sikhnet.com -- there's a huge amount of information there dealing with the questions you've raised. They also have an outstanding Discussion Forum, where this topic has been extensively debated many times already, and if you have any further questions you should post a message there -- I'm sure everyone on that Forum would be happy to fill you in on the background and rationale behind turbans & uncut hair in Sikhism.

Jai Singh

I think he is one of those you-know-who types with his chuddis in a twist - dont talk sense of folks like that - laugh at dem!

I think he is one of those you-know-who types with his chuddis in a twist - dont talk sense of folks like that - laugh at dem!

So much tolerance a religion teaches.....

rkay

Wow quick name change there play hater eh? Have you changed your tight underpants or are they still causing you head ache and foolery? ;-)

Congrats PB on being poster number 150.
The virtual ladoo is on its way.

Slap & Tickle Aunty : Insists on standing a little too close to you and has been trying to give you a kiss on the mouth since you were 10 years old "as a joke". And she's not even remotely as sexy as Wild Aunty, dammit.

Have we done the Good Gracious Me Competitive Aunties (Well my son's got a bigger dudda!)

Uncleji,

Have we done the Good Gracious Me Competitive Aunties (Well my son's got a bigger dudda!)

Yes, I mentioned this classic example of Star Plus saas-bahu kitchen politics desi Auntyism in my post #82.

Tangent: Has BBC America completely stopped showing GGM reruns?

Wow quick name change there play hater eh? Have you changed your tight underpants or are they still causing you head ache and foolery? ;-)

Are you sick bcos you were born sick .

Have you considered other options?

*can't stop laughing *

just read it loud. you will understand what iam saying

Chuddi Boy!

How's it going?

You can get help for your problems these days you know. Just click here.

;-)

commenter_desi,

your comment was disturbing. do you know much about sikhism? everyone is probably doing something that someone else finds anachronistic. even you.

"Of course, general references are shared and appreciated..British colonization and rule, curry (though SL food curries are nothing like what I eat in Indian restuarants. We don't use yoghurt or ghee, or cream everything, or use cheese. The curries are more liquid, with coconut milk, curry leaves, mustard seed, fenugreek etc being dominant flavors. "

SL cuisine sounds like South Indian cuisine, then.

Anna,

I hope you were not referring to "my" comments.
Iam not commentator_desi,this time I have put my email id too.

My response was specifically towards punjabi boy.
I have got nothing against religion or any religion in particular.Why should I? It's none of my business.I have noticed punjabi boy ( on one other thread as well) get personal, so was just having some fun.

Hope Jai,Raju and others are not offended.

I consider myself a vegan. So if some vegan society decrees that all vegans should wear a cap that says 'vegan',(just being silly) I would question that too.

I have a stalker!

Seriously dude click on the link I provided - your problem can be cured if you seek help.

RKay,

No you haven't offended me, but if you really do want to know the history and rationale behind why devout Sikhs are supposed to wear certain external symbols, the best place to find out would be the website I mentioned in post #153. I'm sure that some of us could explain it to you here but, as this isn't a religious website, this may not be the right place to do so. You'll get all the answers you need on the other website.

Kind regards,
Jai

Anna,

I hope you were not referring to "my" comments.
Iam not commentator_desi,this time I have put my email id too.

no worries. i was not referring to your comments. :) if i had been, i would've mentioned you or something, you know, to let you know. ;)