Being completely covered from head to toe will NOT prevent sexual harassment or assault - Any woman can attest to that. A sexually innapropriate comment was directed to me (by a profesor - ewww) when wearing a turtleneck and nerdy plaid pants.

It's the boy-man who has to change. I think there was another similar post regarding woman's dress, no?

I just wanted to add that I think that explicit rules (and even implicit notions) telling women they have to cover their "dirty" bodies gives women an unspoken sense of shame, which is not healthy. If a sense of shame is instilled, then violence is less likely to be reported, which is the REAL problem. This is not the message we should be sending to young girls and women.

"The dress code is blatantly patriarchal and anti-women. If, at the age of 18, students can be given the right to elect their Prime Minister, can they not choose how they dress? Prohibiting women from wearing trousers etc. denies them the right to dress comfortably," said Lenin, south Chennai district secretary, SFI.

While the dress code is blatantly ridiculous, I think its awesome that the South Chennai District Secretary is named Lenin.

This, from the state that brought you M.K. Stalin, as the son of the Chief Minister

Delhi is a strange city. As far as the dress code is concerned, the arguments about "being covered prevents harrassment" is ludicrous."

However, girls there soon learn that equal rights are fraught with unexpected dangers. A girl from my hostel, while walking back from a theatre late at night, accompanied by five boys from her class, was abducted in front of everyone and escaped attempted rape,(only due to a lucky intervention and presence of someone who was armed) even while the boys tried to save her, getting stabbed in the process.

These were people normal girls and guys who thought going to a late show was fine.

The abductors escaped any from of lawful action as they were related to big politicans. No amount of protest in front of the PM's office and even meeting with the PM to intervene in this incident helped.

All journalistic power exercised to highlight faded away, as finally, no rape had taken place.

So though bad things can happen at any place and time, there is a difference between arguing this from the safety of one's laptop and facing it in reality. There may be practical consideration of protecting oneself, that smart girls follow.(Girls travelling in buses for instance, learn to carry open safety pins for annoying fondling)

Of course, noone has the right to prescribe dress code. But in a city where a huge number belong to neanderthal times in terms of sexual identities, a little prudence never hurts. Law cannot be depended on.

Sumita

Am I the only one to see the slippery slope??? Next thing you know these third-wave feminists will want to wear short skirts on tennis courts!

Oh I feel like being obnoxious and paternalistic today.

"We need a forum to express our displeasure. The entire idea seems designed to go against the rights of women students. Jeans and T-shirts are an essential part of college attire the world over. Why should we be asked to keep off?" asked a civil engineering student.

She wants to wear something because it is essential part of college attire the world over? Her problem is that she is not being allowed to ape other people. I think she needs to come up with a better reason.

Jeans are the most effing stupid things for Madras climate. There is a reason why Indians have for years worn the fabrics, that they wear. Funny isn’t it, people in America wear “Madras” shirts in the summer. Don’t they say, the best thing in a hot climate is to cover as much of your skin as possible with light breathable cotton.

And another thing, most Indians even those who are well off, do not have washing machines. They usually have maids (or dhobis) do the washing. I once saw my aunt’s maid washing my jeans. Do you know how hard it is to wring a pair of jeans. And especially if you have to wring several pairs of jeans in a row. I see her struggling with it. I feel totally obnoxious for having put her through it. I try to step in and volunteer. I tell her I’ll do it myself. The whole situation gets awkward, you are all desi you know what I mean.

In the end I washed them myself. You’re hands hurt. In my limited experience there is no other piece of clothing that is harder to hand wash. So please don’t wear jeans. And if you do, wash them yourself, you spoiled upper-middle class twits.

And when have Indian clothes been deemed unsexy. They are effing sexy! The saree, the kurta, the choli. Ever notice how regardless of sexiness-quotient of an attire, Indian actresses tend to make aesthetically superior choices when it comes to Indian clothes, but their choices in non-Indian clothes is at times comical. (Although this is changing.)

And will any of these people complain about attire restrictions when they enter the workforce. The world over corporations set more conservative rules. And yet no one complains then. Btw, Indian universities are heavily subsidized, you are almost given your education for free. They do have the right to set standards. Every university in the world has some ‘standards’. Except for UC Berkeley of course : )

Indian yuppies in suits with cranked up AC offices must also die.

I have to go take my medication now.

Law cannot be depended on.

That's right - it cannot be depended on. That's why a deeper cultural change is definitely in order, in addition to the law.

I think the rules for HAVING to wear sexy clothes in sports are just as ridiculous (i.e. "uniforms" for beach volleyball, etc - lol). Men don't have to wear thongs getting stuck up their butts while pole vaulting. Trust me thinking about a wedgie whilst pole vaulting or spiking a volleyball is very distracting to my performance. Stupid. Another case of women having no choice.

I want a choice, dammit.

The world over corporations set more conservative rules. And yet no one complains then.

That is funny!! Its also the understatement of the year(wannabe investment bankers and consultants please note)

Sumita

Well, the question is why should the girls be allowed to wear short shorts and mini skirt and things of that nature. Will those schools allow the guys to come to school wearing shorts? That probably won't even be an issue because most guys dont' dress that way. The issue is, why should you wear revealing clothes when you are going to school? You can wear as little clothes as you want when you are in a night club trying to get laid. But in school, dress as a student must. It is a sad fact that the schools are forced to impose such dress codes. Schools shouldn't have to do it. students should have done it on their own decency.

Angie

Trust me thinking about a wedgie whilst pole vaulting or spiking a volleyball is very distracting to my performance

*laughing very hard*

Notice how no men whine about showing their body?

(OK Salman Khan excluded.)No offence to his fans.

Sumita

Sumita and I (along with a couple of other participants) had a discussion on a closely-related topic a few days ago, as Angie alluded to.

The problem is that, if you focus on the woman's attire without simultaneously attempting to address (and make a focused, concerted effort to change) the "neanderthal" attitudes mentioned by Sumita, there is a subtle suggestion -- either deliberate or accidental -- that rape may be "understandable" or "justifable" under "extenuating circumstances". (eg. because of some factor of the woman's dress and/or behaviour). It is this second, unfortunately common, "she asked for it" mentality within many quarter of Indian society which really needs to be dealt with firmly.

The media can certainly play a major hand in effecting this change, or at least a high-profile awareness of this within Indian society. Some of you may remember an American film called "The Accused" sometime in the '80s (I think it starred Jodie Foster ?) which addressed exactly this issue. The point was that, no matter how provocatively a woman may behave, no matter how skimpy/tight/revealing her clothing is, no matter how promiscuous she may or may not be, no matter what her previous sexual history is, no matter what, a man never ever has the right to touch her against her will. Never. No excuses, no extenuating circumstances, no "blame the victim", nothing.

A sufficiently high-profile, well-made Hindi film with noteable lead actors, made along the same lines as "The Accused" and produced/directed by respected individuals, could do a lot to raise awareness of the multiple issues involved here, or at least generate greater discussion of the topic within Indian society.

Schools shouldn't have to do it. students should have done it on their own decency.

Ummm... yeah. I can't speak for Indian schools, but I have never seen any woman dress "obscenely" at university here. Sure, on a hot day, you see shorts and tank-tops, but that's completely reasonable. I have never seen anyone dress like they are going to a nightclub, and I don't think we are in danger of people dressing as such without explicit rules forbidding it!!! No one is asking to dress like that at school, and I can't see anyone wanting to. The only clothing offense I've seen are people wearing their flannel pajamas to school- That disturbs me. (Aside: football jerseys also distrubs me, but that's another story).

The issue is a matter of choice, and not blaming women for violence committed against them.

Angie

"The issue is a matter of choice"

The issue is one of choice. When women dress in an openly sexually suggestive manner, they are making a choice, unfortunately not the best one they can make.(this does not apply to neanderthal circumstances, only free ones)

It is not as simple as evident at first glance.

Sumita

Realistically, though, no one is asking to dress in a sexually suggestive manner. They just want to wear t-shirts and jeans! Can we not be trusted to have good judgement? Yes we can!

The sexually suggestive part is in the eye of the beholder. I can't imagine anyone would find my nerdy plaid pants (trust me - they were SO nerdy/kitschy, intentionally so to make me feel more scholarly) sexually suggestive, but apparently, one loser did.

but I have never seen any woman dress "obscenely" at university here. Sure, on a hot day, you see shorts and tank-tops, but that's completely reasonable

Really? I've seen highschool girls HERE who came wearin whats just a glorified bikini top to school. Another issue is that we are not taking about a school here. You have to put this in cultural perspective. But it is a fact that girls are tending to dress less(less as in less fabric). Yeah its a choice you should have, but only in your private life. When you are in a public setting like school, you should come dressed professionally(preferably that translates to more fabric).

Umm...this news is old, and after much outcry and protest, DU (Delhi Univ.) decided against imposing the dress code, as did the ones in Bombay. I don't have the links, but it was all over the news.

Remember, its not burkha that they are being asked to wear!!!!!!!!!

Angie,

I wish I could post a thread(runiing into hundreds of posts) from my town mom site which (Specially about young girls dressing suggestively in class)

(This is a highly ranked school district in the US and has nothing to do with Asian, Indian stuff)) This debate takes place here too, as viciously. This is where I got the the sexual suggestive clothing concept from . My daughter is 5. Obviously I wonder what all this means for her. fighting to wear jeans is something I hope, is not a relevant thing anymore to us here. so why on earth are we arguing about it?

(am guessing the moms are not mad about plaid skirts, are they?)

Sumita

I've seen highschool girls HERE who came wearin whats just a glorified bikini top to school.

Ummm... You're talking about HighSchool, not University. I was referring to University, where people choose to go and are also capable/old enough to use good judgement. I will reiterate that at University, girls do not dress obscenely!

With regards to your comment about underage girls wearing bikini tops outside of a swimming pool/beach - they are young, and they need strong female mentors to help instill a sense of value and self-esteem, NOT your judgement.

Jai Singh, there have been tons of movies which have ripped off the Accused, in Bollywood. That's not the problem.

The problem is the double standard - Men are expected to be studs, and women virgins.
Obviously, this is gonna cause trouble somewhere.

The other issue is of course the whole lack of accountability in the Justice system, and a rotten police force. People here have wondered why bystanders don't lend a helping hand in India - this is because the Police will harass the bystanders too. In numerous cases, a good samaritan would pick up somebody who may have been caught in a hit-and-run, only to find that the police refuses to believe the story and accuses the good samaritan of being the actual hit-and-run driver, letting you off only with a bribe. While this is not the norm, it's not even as common as many people in and outside of India believe, it stays in the mind, just like some people irrationally fear plane crashes over car crashes. Thus, it's a combination of lack of faith in institutions blah blah which means that lots of men think they can get away with anything. The nail in the coffin is Bollywood. In a gazillion Hindi movies, the "hero" "eve-teases" the girl, does a whole song and dance, and then gets forgiven, and gets the girl in the end. While lots of people don't take this seriously it has a HUGE subconcious effect on the masses, and not ONE person has so far stood up to speak out against this stuff. Subconciously, these movies are saying it's ok to mess with women on the street. But who will speak up and boycott this shit? We're too busy trying to show our commonality with terrorists.

Remember, the story is about University age women who want a CHOICE.

The article in question is not about high-school girls or grade school girls suffering low self-esteem due to lack of discussion and guidance in their homes, and society at large. That is an important issue, but it is separate from the one at hand.

TTG,

You're absolutely right. At the risk of repeating myself, it's the attitude (explicitly or tacitly condoned) within Indian culture which is the problem.

Women out here in the West wear fairly revealing clothes these days as per the current fashion, and it's certainly a lot more suggestive than how they dressed 10-15 years ago. Yet men here aren't going into a frenzy of rape as a result, and neither would there be any attempt to condone the actions of any men who may "cross the line" with women because of anything to do with the way the ladies may be dressed.

You can understand the point I'm trying to make here.

Well put, TTG.

The subconscious "it's fun to harass girls, and they will come around" crap has got to go.

Angie

The implication in the story that they dont have a choice is entirely erroneous.

If they are in university, without having this awareness, am sorry, I cannot waste an iota of sympathy for such girls

Sumita

Sumita, you really aren't helping to make it any better you know. Choice or not - rape is RAPE! When you say the women should have dressed better because "men will be men" you are being condescending towards men, and stating we have no control over our urges. So basically you are condoning the Rape.

TTG

Am condoning the RAPE?

Sorry, how did you come to that entirely illogical and erroneous conclusion?

Sumita

you are being condescending towards men, and stating we have no control over our urges.

First of all relax, I dont even know who you are.
Second, fortunately there are many kinds of men and boys and hence all cannot be painted with the same brush

That does not mean all men are pictures of self restraint and high thinking, completely integrated in body and mind.

Why do you feel compelled to speak for entire male world? or even to defend it?

Am making no accusations. Am only stating girls need to exercise discrimination rather than waste their energies on these irrelevant battles that take unnnecessary time. Am guesing, while at university, they have better things to do, like improve themselves, rather than mankind.

Sumita

Angie,
I have also seen college girls dress that way. I gave a highschool example to make the point that it starts early here. TTG, where in the world do they not have that double standard? rape IS rape... so is human psyche. If a girls stands naked in front of you, most men will get turned on to a varying degree(so long as they are not of "alternative" life style). It by no means condones rape. Any effort made to prevent it should be lauded. Including this one, no matter how misdirected you might believe it to be.

No word from the male students about this subject, at all. If they’re smart, they’ll organize a “dress freely” protest, and then stand firmly behind their sisters in encouragement, or something like that

There was a *wink* there. How does a woman know, a man is supporting her undressing for "good reason" and not the "wink" ones?

If there is a fool proof way to know this, am with ya guys (on this.)

See why its funny to me?

Sumita

I don't see what's wrong with wanting to wear jeans and t-shirts to university. Frankly, I was too exhausted from lab, lecture, studying, etc. to wear anything BUT. (sweats, too)

As the Fresh Prince song goes, "you go to school to learn, not for a fashion show..."

I was too busy slaving over the books, than to get all dolled up and wear a micro-mini & heels to a freakin 8am class.

Am making no accusations. Am only stating girls need to exercise discrimination rather than waste their energies on these irrelevant battles that take unnnecessary time. Am guesing, while at university, they have better things to do, like improve themselves, rather than mankind.

Sumitha, this is the key statement in the entire conversation here. Feminist movement has come a long way in insuring equal freedom and opportunity for women. But its still not where it should be because girls now a days are not fighting for what they should. They are fixated on grossly inconsequential things like dress code. While U.S.A still hasnt had a female president and the American corporate executive class still under represents the female gender.

Does one need to wear a particular kind of clothing to feel free?or empowered?

Sumita

TTG: You wrote: "The nail in the coffin is Bollywood. In a gazillion Hindi movies, the "hero" "eve-teases" the girl, does a whole song and dance, and then gets forgiven, and gets the girl in the end."

As someone who watches a truly obscene number of Hindi and Tamil movies, I am curious just what you are referring to? Typically eve-teasers are thugs who get beaten up by the hero. Are you sure you aren't conflating eve-teasing with a rather different cinematic phenomenon, namely girl-meets/hates-boy, they end up falling in love? I am not suggesting that Hindi cinema is not guilty of rampant sexism (it is, the good = sexually chaste woman is an obvious example), but to be honest, I don't find its sexism to be generally of a different league than what is on display in Hollywood film after Hollywood film (tough career woman = cold-hearted bitch; the sweetheart rarely has a high-flying job).

Does one need to wear a particular kind of clothing to feel free?or empowered?

I'm certainly not taking up for this, but yes I think some girls, for a variety of dysfunctional reasons do.

What I do take up for is the fact that there is a certain pair of jeans, a certain sweater, a certain skirt, or maybe a churidaar suit that we each own-- and for some reason this item has magical powers that makes us feel like the invincible goddess that we are. (oh yeah, not that boys don't own such items...you know you do)

Umair- off the top of my head I can think of this one.

I'm damn certain there are probably a dozen more

Desi Dancer: The number of such films is FAR outweighed by ones where the only eve teasers are goondas/unsavory types. My point was that TTG's post made it seem that eve-teasing by HEROES was the norm in Hindi films, and I don't agree that that is so.

On the film you linked to: in that film the hero does play an unpleasant jerk in the first half of the film who harasses the heroine; note that this is a film where both parties detest each other in the film's first half, and both play nasty practical jokes on each other. The film is quite puerile, and the humor nasty and silly, but I am not sure it fits within "eve teasing."

That being said where I do see a rise in sexism in Hindi movies is in a spate of recent films (all made in the last 4-5 years) that slavishly ape the neo-stripper aesthetic of contemporary hip-hop videos. As in those videos, an appalling sexist subtext is passed off as "edgy", glamorous, etc.

But even these films have their feminist defenders. Traditionally in Hindi cinema, only "sluts" showed skin; now that is no longer the case, and everyone switches between "vampy" and traditional dress. The interesting thing about this phenomenon is that the old Bollywood "code" (if you see a woman on screen showing too much in Western clothes, she's bound to be a negative character) has been broken. The "ground" of feminine dress codes in Hindi cinema has been pretty much disturbed; I am unsure to what end, but it is an interesting development that holds both promise and peril...

To tie my last comment to the subject of this post, I think it's interesting that the people who complain the most about the link between what women wear and rape are...men. i.e. "Despite" the appalling sexual assault situation in Delhi, one just does not see women (particularly younger women) "covering up" more than they used to, though a lot of men appear to be anxious that they do so. The only explanation I can think of is that women know that how you dress has only a tangential relation to rape; conversely, how women dress has long been a classic way of disciplining the female and "putting her in her place"...as a social matter, I think in urban India what one has is that in the younger generation, women seem far more liberated than men (i.e. the latter in my experience often display the sorts of attitudes that it would be unusual to find among their female peers)...

Yup - I think guys should show their support

I don't think the point here is equality and freedom of this and that (not to diminish their importance in any way). The point is - women are getting raped. I half agree with Sumita - I know if incidences of rape were high in my community, I certainly wouldn't go around wearing revealing clothing. At the same time, if incidences of rape are high, are measures being taken to find out why, and how to curb them? It's not enough to simply impose a dress code - men inclined to rape will do so, whether the girl is wearing a swimsuit or salwar kameez.

Yes, women in provocative clothing 'excite' men. But obviously, the average man doesn't move to rape her.

On a mostly unrelated note, I'd love dress codes. It's so much easier than figuring out what to wear everyday. I don't mind expressing my independence/creativity/freedom of dress on weekends.

So just 2 questions.

It would seem that the logic someone pro the dress code believes that if females wear modest-style traditional clothing (ie salwar kameezes) they will not be harrassed/raped or less likely to be harrased or raped. So before these clothing issues was rape non-existant in India???

Also, are these "girls travelling in buses [who learned] to carry open safety pins for annoying fondling", are they wearing less clothing or the traditional clothing (ie salwar kameezes)?

give 'em bowie knives. that they way they can cut the balls of assholes off so the "hey legs on display, must rape" impulse can be bred out of the population. the next time a muslim woman also makes this argument someone should give her a bowie knife too.

Yayyy. Thanks for giving daily dose of great news from India. You guys never disappoint. Please do post tomorrow about how Indian schools force toddlers (sometimes they are beaten for not doing so) into wearing ugly school dresses.

Indian society is so cruel towards women and kids. Its proven by the fact that these colleages aint asking male students to not come to classes wearing only long desi style chaddis. Which is very common in India. According to a recent survey done in major cities of India by TOI, 69% of male students accepted going to classes in chaddis atleast once a week.

The right way for Indian women is to ape what brown girls(or their fellow male students) wear in land of free. Only that will prove that they are free enough.

Maybe, the heart of the matter lies in how Indian parents and India in general bring up their kids. Especially the ones with, you know, penises. In a society where even kissing in movies doesn't happen, all that sexual energy is built up like a coke can that was all shook up. Drop the can, and bam! it busts. Same thing with most Indian boys (in India or not).

The first girl they talk to is "the one they will marry", the first girl that smiles at them is "their love", wtf kinda mess is that? Maybe if the parents let their kids watch porn and all the uncut Amrikkan (thats how they say American) movies, maybe we could have more washing machines as well as lesser rape.

Also, I was in Chennai last summer. Damn. There was this movie being released which features two lesbians. All these neanderthal penises started tearing down the movie posters and started rallying against it. whoa! slam the brakes right there! skurrrrr! bang!

It's one thing to copy the western world, but damn, where the hell in the hindu religion does it say that lesbians are bad or illegal? It's not like people there have their own open minds to think of shit like that.

Seriously, quit trying to be "white." Wearing jeans in 100 degree weather is not cool. Wearing indian tops over those jeans is not cool. Speaking english in an all-indian-language-speaking crowd is not cool. Quit trying to be white, jaysuzz.

Also, this doesn't apply just to girls. I got made fun of for wearing shorts all the freaking time. So I stepped it up a notch, and wore a button down short sleeved shirt, and had the top 2 and bottom 2 buttons unbuttoned and made sure my chest was showing. Yeah, american born indian being metrosexual in india. Saweet yaar.

In summary of the 1 billion indian's personalities in india: "if you talk to girls, babies will come out."

The right way for Indian women is to ape what brown girls(or their fellow male students) wear in land of free. Only that will prove that they are free enough.

amen! itz the brown american's burden!

While I sometimes get frustrated over how frequently this "victim-blaming" sort of stuff comes up, a part of me is glad that it does, because the dialog gives us a chance to spread ideas.

Several of you might benefit from reading a book called "Men Who Rape." In the book a sociologist interviews dozens of men who have been incarcerated for sexual assault and asks them to share details about their motives and attacks. Most of the men COULD NOT EVEN REMEMBER WHAT THEIR VICTIM WAS WEARING. It might be a very enlightening book for people who understand that victim-blaming is wrong but have a hard time explaining why, if the victim was drunk or dressed "provocatively."

Chew on this: Everyone has the right to be safe. No one gets raped unless a rapist is around.

Wearing "sexy" (um...t-shirt and jeans? hardly my idea of provocative. let them wear whatever they want) clothing may invite unwanted attention and stares but that is hardly equivalent to asking for rape. Let me reiterate: no one gets raped unless a rapist is present. Capisce?

Men are not all sex-crazed penisheads and I absolutely DO NOT agree that the onus of sexual assault prevention should be placed on women, but I do agree that that very assumption of female responsibility is rampant in Indian culture, and you guys are probably right ; it may be subtly fueled by mixed messages from the media: "Aamir was going to rape Madhuri, but then he didn't, and she fell in love with him!" Riiiiight.... Anyway, a societal change is definitely in order.

Seriously, quit trying to be "white." Wearing jeans in 100 degree weather is not cool. Wearing indian tops over those jeans is not cool. Speaking english in an all-indian-language-speaking crowd is not cool. Quit trying to be white, jaysuzz.

You speak the All-Indian-Language? :)

The issue here lies not with the cultural attitudes of Indian men with dating, or for that matter with lesbianism, but with women not being allowed to wear what they want. Guys wear jeans or tees or bermudas to college pretty regularly. The point is equality and freedom of choice, not about what you decide is appropriate for the Indian climate.

As an aside, Black and Hispanic people wear jeans too.

One more thought...

This "victim-blaming" (ie, women are less likely to get raped if dressed conservatively) is hardly unique to India. I read once that the reason why the whole clothing thing is so hotly debated on the issue of rape is because it makes assault into a game. Like...there are certain "rules," and if we women follow the rules, we won't get hurt. Rules like, dress conservatively, don't walk around late at night, don't get drunk, etc etc etc ad nauseum. These rules give us a sense of security and reason when these terrible acts occur, and help us feel safe by essentially saying, "I follow the rules, so that wouldn't happen to me. She should have followed the rules."

HOWEVER. The vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by acquaintances and are driven by insecurity, weakness, and the need for dominance on the part of the rapist, so how helpful would those rules really be?

tef, bravissimo! (or bravissima..)

It has been quite a long time since I have read a posting to which I vigorously nod my head in agreement with each sentence's end. The manual system of labor in India commands that it be considered when choosing attire, and apart from your par excellence insight into the problem, the opinions guiding and evolving haut couture there continues to disregard the pleas of servants and their silent, unending desperation.

The attention to domestic ramifications doesn?t imply fashion in India need stagnate or the level of acceptance regarding what attire is appropriate need diminish; on the contrary, the need for a warm climate?s apparel, as you nicely evinced with the popularity of Madras shirts even in North America, could lead Indian fashion down a far less conservative avenue, while improving upon an already stunning repertoire of timeless styles like the sari, kurta, and choli you listed.

I hate how this has become a ?me too? post, but your views are worth repeating.

I recently attended an Indian wedding in Cincinnati. While I end up attending roughly two weddings a year, I?ve attended few Indian weddings and fewer still wherein most attendees are draped in elegant, traditional Indian garments. This Cincinnati-held wedding was a rare and spectacular sight to behold, with stunning jewelry, embroidery, colors, and tailoring! Only a few men wore western suites, and fewer women wore western dresses, and, oh, how dowdily they looked! Even I, having grown up entirely in a white-bread suburb in Connecticut, could readily distinguish the superior aesthetics of Indian fashion with its sparkling gold-drenched silk drowning out the dim shimmer of monochromatic western gowns. And for men, how on earth can a suit and tie even begin to compare with a richly-embroidered kurta and its silk sheen? Curiously, this wedding was between two ABCDs. I now think if I were ever to marry, a traditional Indian style like theirs would be my preference. Perhaps, even if Indian fashion devolves into something bearing no resemblance to what I've come to appreciate, some of us in the West can keep the Eastern tradition alive in our own lives.

dude, thoreaulylazy, fix your english:
"how dowdily they looked" should be "how dowdy they looked" .. there's no way someone can dowdily look at something unless they have a lazy eye or something, and even then it would be drowsily =p

and suits, man, not suites.

Peace

Desis need to be desensitized to 'sex' (erm... bare naked ankles). More skin, not less.

A solution, the girls can wear what they want and rapist should be castrated. This is India for god sake! Land where women is worshipped as goddess. We gave the world the Kama Sutra; you can tolerate a tank top and shorts! And all this self righteousness has no place, not when you look at every pic of every goddess and she has huge tities! (Go ahead, get offended)

Hear hear, cinnamon rani! Let
s get over this madonna/whore complex.

As I read your response, while seated Indian style of course, I began to levitate, for a great joy had washed over me – and then I began to wonder if you were mocking me, because I’ve never met anyone who has agreed with me so thoreauly.(Yes, yes, Punjabi Boy, I meant to spell it that way.)

Cinnamon Rani

Land where women is worshipped as goddess

yes, and I missed the part in mythology where Sarasvati was whining : "I want to wear jeans and shorts and they won't let me. waa, waa, waa. Shiva ji is making rules we dont want to follow. Oh, am soooo helpless"

Oh puhleeze. Dont you see how dumb it is?
Did you read ONE story where the goddesses waited for permission from a male deity to do what they wanted?

*laughing ironically*

Sumita

tef, thoreaulylazy, as I read your arguments, the clarity and brilliance of your vision washes over me and swathes my soul in yards of clean light efficient desi-chic haute couture. So I will now attempt to condense the collective cornucopia of wisdom in the following logically sequenced statements:

1. Jeans are a bitch since maids end up washing them which is oppression on maids.
2. Washing jeans by oneself is a bitch since no one likes calloused hands
3. J. J. Vallaya-esque weddings indicate that such brocaded bodices are sexy and appropriate for college-wear.
4. No one likes to ape white-bread New-England types.
5. Hence, from above statements, it follows that women who want to wear jeans are unfashionable, dhobi-abusing, white-wannabe bitches with no sense of fashion.
6. This directly implies that Big Bhaiyya should make sure every one wears sexy desi clothes to college instead of such provocative wear as t-shirts and jeans.

I've done one better. Let's get a uniform for all college going goils. Let's get an Indian lehenga designer to add reams of zardosi therein. Then, we'll have solved the rape/sexual abuse issue. Perfect!

And how can you forget what happened to duhshasana for molesting draupadi.

Bhim tore open his breast, drank his blood(ewwww!!!) and brought back some for draupadi to shampoo with(eeeks)(I always wondered in what did he carry it and how it didnt clot) but sweet revenge, worse than castration, I think.

Nice!!(?)

Helpless women indeed!! All these girls who whine will be greatly helped by reading literature on the devi phenomenon. Jeans wont do much for their lack of self.

Sumita

If memory serves me (I left my beloved Bombay 15 years ago at age 15), these bans are regularly floated and regularly shot down. I can't speak for Anna University in Madras, but there is NO WAY they can make this dress code stick in Bombay.

In any case, this sort of public nasty comment about rape and clothing is part of an ominous trend in India where the onslaught of modernity is being fought with spurious arguments about tradition and women's bodies become yet another battleground against the inevitable...India has never been averse to female skin per se; traditional outfits show mucho skin, from Koli fisherwomen's flimsy saris tucked between legs and their short, tie-up blouses, to groups of certain Bengali and Southern Indian women weraring saris without blouses (I forget exactly where in the South)...it's telling that the ban appears mainly focused on WESTERN clothing rather than displays of skin per se (this appears to be the case at least in Tamil Nadu) but I find it especially troublesome that the Mumbai U. guy wants to see women in salwars WITH MODEST NECKLINES. This is an altogether new and unfamiliar beast, i.e. melding the traditional with an UNTRADITIONAL concept of modesty.

Anyway, typed in a hurry before I get the !@#$ out of work so sorry if I've left holes in the argument I was tryung to make

DesidudeinAustin,

May I first commend you in your choice of attire –sarcasm, you wear it well : )

I never used the word rape or sexual abuse. I do not think attire is to be blamed in those cases. I am not sure if anyone has ever blamed the victim’s attire in a specific instance of rape. I hope not. It seems to me that people are piggybacking on news stories involving rape to bring about change in dress regulations. I think the two issues ought to be kept separate.

My contention is that, colleges have a right to put in place ‘reasonable’ dress regulations. I am ok with people quibbling about what reasonable is.

If you read my post, you will notice that I begin by quoting a girl, from Madras who wanted to wear jeans – because – that is the attire the world over. I thought that that was a weak argument.

And then I went on to bash jeans wearing Indians My problem is with both male and female ones. Which I am willing to stand by for reasons already stated.

5. Hence, from above statements, it follows that women who want to wear jeans are unfashionable, dhobi-abusing, white-wannabe bitches with no sense of fashion.

Unfashionable? I would prefer the term “poor aesthetic choice”. This is just my subjective opinion, and I hope you will agree that I can have one.

Dhobi-abusing? Yes. If they are being handwashed. Yes, I do believe it would be kind and nice thing to do, if you didn’t have your maid wash them.

White-wannabe-****** (ram, ram) I will not repeat what you said, there are so many Devi-jis present. And yes, I do find a certain subsection of Indians are very wannabe.

Then, we'll have solved the rape/sexual abuse issue. Perfect!

Neither I nor thoreauly, said a word about rape and or sexual abuse. I have no idea where you are getting this from?

tef, I thank you for your appreciation of my literary aesthetic :)

Neither I nor thoreauly, said a word about rape and or sexual abuse. I have no idea where you are getting this from?

Unfashionable? I would prefer the term “poor aesthetic choice”. This is just my subjective opinion, and I hope you will agree that I can have one.

The problem is that the university removes choice in such a personal matter. That is Big-Brother-ism. Hence my gripe.

The problem is that the university removes choice in such a personal matter. That is Big-Brother-ism. Hence my gripe.

They try DD, but they cant. They've been trying it for over 30 years now. That itself shows how ineffective that effort is.

Sumita

"Does one need to wear a particular kind of clothing to feel free?or empowered?"

No, one needs to be able to wear whatever kind of clothing they want.

"No, one needs to be able to wear whatever kind of clothing they want."

>>That should mean i wouldnt be prosecuted if i dont wear anything at all. Or some form of clothing is necessary?

Deepa, one shouldn't need to be able to wear whatever kind of clothing they want - it's a nicety, but certainly not a necessity. Restaurants, weddings, business meetings, private schools, churches, these all have dress codes, from the strict "black tie formal wear", to the casual, "no ripped jeans, no open-toe footwear". I don't think Delhi Univ will be violating people's human rights by stipulating what people should wear, within reason. It's the administrator's prerogative. In fact, I disagree with there existing any relationship between uniforms and heinous sexual crimes despite numerous statistics showing that uniforms reduce (but not eliminate) lesser sexual crimes like sexual harassment, or "eve teasing" as it's called in India. However, even these studies admit the reductions are not permanent. Once acclimatized to the more conservative dresses, the violators simply alter their standards regarding whom they feel they’re permitted to harass. Ultimately, the change needs to come from the harassers, and no amount of apparel will change their behavior. I support the Univ’s decision for uniforms for an entirely different reason — the right of an institution to set guidelines for its students. Yes, their reason is stupid, but as tef pointed out, the school likely wanted to impose uniforms all along and the bogey of delivering reduced sexual harassment is just an excuse to execute the dormant plan. 9/11, Iraq anyone?

thoreaulylazy, as you mention rightly, it is unlikely that the dress code imposition will have any effect on sexual crimes. Part of the issue at stake is the fact that the institutions in question have resorted to the argument that imposing a dress-code will reduce sexual crimes on campus.

Which is why, note that they have no issue with guys wearing jeans. Note that the institutions have not deemed it necessary to save the dudes from the corrupting influence of the west.

As for the question of human rights violations, there are many civil liberties that you and I enjoy, the deprivation of which, would not necessarily cause Amnesty International to rally to your cause. For instance, the right to choose poorie over pasta for dinner tonight.

That said, a dress-code in a private restaurant is not quite the same thing as one in a public university. And people do bitch about such restaurants. Although, even in the most formal of restaurants, the dress-code is a matter of option -- sure, you would feel uncomfy in a t-shirt in most such places, but it is not like someone is imposing that upon you.

In fact, if the university had laid down a formals-only requirement, or an Indian-clothes only requirement, that would be a tad antedilluvian, but nonetheless fair.

The main issue here, and I repeat, is the unavailability of choice simply for those students that have ovaries.

ban women from wearing mini skirts, tight tops and shorts, saying this will help prevent rape.

Cutting off the dicks of all men will also help prevent rape.

thoreaulylazy, Desi Dude in Austin has said what I would have said in reply to you.

If they want to impose a dress code then let them do it without this particular excuse.

DesiDudeInAustin,

In the words of herr doktor from Stepford Wives when asked why turn only the women into robots and not the men too: "oh, but they were next."

hey, im not sure if this is a public forum but i stumbled over it and have to say something. i am a student at anna university and in the thick of the whole dress code thing.. the issue isnt the dress code itself but how ridiculous the reasons that are stated for it are.. im not sure how many are official but they range from "female students will distract the proffesors" to "it is not in our culture" to the rape thing.. it comes right down to the colors we wear(black is not allowed) and what sort of indian clothes we wear( salwars without dupattas are not allowed).. its become less of a discipline thing and more of a control thing now!!

thoreaulylazy, that is a pure speculation.

Peeps: Has Anna Univ's decision to implement been finalized, i.e. it's confirmed that they are going ahead?

yes it has umair..its official! the circulars have been sent out to all the departments...they are actually sending you home if you dont follow the dress code..the dress code btw is only the tip of the iceberg..hes introduced other ridiculous rules which are clearly violations of ourrights but no one is doing anything about it

Thanks for the info peeps. Their reasons seem quite nutty. I am curious do they say why you are not allowed to wear black? Is their some political subtext here. Isn't black the color of the DMK? I got that from Iruvar. Who says you can't learn about India through it's movies.

And is there a dress code for male students?

oh there are reasons..but they are as moronic as they come..."black is a depressing color,the student sitting behind you will thusly be distracted by it and cannot concentrate on the lecture"
the male students are required to wear pants full-sleeved shirts and shoes! in the madras heat! plus its a bias against the women..the male students should wear kurtas if the women and wearing salwars

"Black is a depressing color"-- never thought I'd hear that from the city/state that made Periyar and Annadurai famous!!!

Peeps, the reasons they give really are imbecilic; btw, one other commenter here said the Delhi and Bombay Universities had withdrawn their plans after protests, do you knwo anything about this? Thanks for the update from the trenches!

yeah, there were wide spread protests in delhi and mumbai, they had to withdraw their plans for the dress code..but they are planning to introduce it agaion in a few months seeing the "success" our university is having with it..

the thing with our univ is that to the majority the dress code doesnt matter coz they dress like that anyway...they dont see it as a violation of their rights or anything..we dont have much backing even from our own student body.
the vice chancellor has now banned the students from speaking to the press.. thats coz someone wrote a really caustic article about the dress code being "kinky, perverted, sexist" and a couple of other hing..he dint like that much :)

Anna University is now going to conduct raids to enforce its ban on cellphones. I wonder if they will try and enforce the ban against jeans too. If the University believes that jeans are aginst our culture, perhaps we should show up in Veshtis!

2 things must done immediately.

1. please collect dress code rule sheet from various colleges/ as many colleges as possible and get in touch with me at blanknoise@gmail.com

2. send in clothes worn by people who have experienced street sexual harassment at the time of the incident. whether sari, school uniform...anythiing worn at that time...

SOON!!

JASMEEN

I read something really sad the other day.
In Bangalore- a young woman Partibha who worked for a HP call center was brutally raped and murdered.
Guess that the police had to say

what next?? Women need to stay at home to prevent getting raped and murdered??

Ooops, sorry the link should go to the archive dated Dec 18th 2005:
However I am gonna Cut and Paste it
COPS SUGGEST 'DRESS CODE' FOR BPO LADIES

Bangalore, Dec. 18 (BRS)- Following the alleged rape and murder of a lady employee of a call centre, the Bangalore Police have suggested dress code for lady employees of call centres.

Sources in the Police Department made it clear that their suggestion should not be interpreted as moral policing but only a employee-friendly suggestion, for their own safety.

'Avoid dressing up provocatively and showing intimacy with men, particularly in the presence of strangers, G.B. Chebbi, DCP (Central), suggested to the women employees.

"All of us should understand that drivers come from a certain socio-economic background. Their standard of education is lesser. These people cannot digest a girl talking to a boy freely in a cosmopolitan society and wearing a particular type of dress. They form certain opinions about the persons based on their dress and behaviour and crime follows, Chebbi said.

"Better avoid such dress and behaviour, just for one's own safety," he advised.

Policemen on night beats had often spotted young women and men in awkward positions around call centres. It is better such situations are avoided, Chebbi remarked.

BTW Jasmeen, U rock! More power to you.

HI , I AM A STUDENT OF ANNAUNIVERSITY..... I AM TOTALLY SICK OF THE WAY THE AUTHORITIES THERE ARE BEHAVING.....THE MESS(LADIES HOSTEL MESS) IS JUST A STONE THROWS AWAY ,BUT WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO WEAR JEANS TO THE MESS. WHENEVER WE STEP OUT OF THE HOSTEL WE SHOULD BE SEEN WEARING NICELY PINNED CHURIDARS DUPATTAS .ONCE A GIRL WAS SEVERELY REPRIMANDED BY THE RC(RESIDENT COUNSELLOR).. HER MISTAKE??? SHE WAS WEARING JEANS TO THE MESS ON A SUNDAY!!!!! SO MUCH RULES FOR THE GIRLS . WHAT ABOUT THE BOYS?? THE BOYS MESS IS JUST A FEW FEET AWAY FROM OURS BUT THEY ALWAYS COME THERE IN SHORTS AND BERMUDAS... ACCORDING TO THE VC GALS IN JEANS DISTRACTS THE BOYS , SO WON'T THIS (BOYS IN SHORTS) DISTRACT THE GALS????

I am a 2005 passout of anna university. earlier there was no dress code but i have seen most girls dressed decently. even we wore a Jeans only in final year. but all the things were quite decent. i feel there is no need of a dress code, because it is a matter of choice and most girls know what they are doing when they dress up in a particular manner. i believe there has not been a single case of rape or any such thing inside any campus here. so where does the question of distracting guys come in.
and if the guys are getting distracted by girls wearing jeans in class, its their problem. i work in a reputed company. i am free to wear anything and everything, my clothes dont matter as far as i give the results. And i have realised that no one gives a damn to what you wear. there is no point in fussing on what one should wear and one should not.

i feel our educational institutions should focus on other aspects
for instance anna univ does not give internet connection to students in hostel - i have faced so many difficulties during my projects - i would have to wait till morining to go browse and resolve one small issue
Mobile phones had made it easy for all of us to communicate with each other

The VC has no right to make statements like "How will peopel teach if some girl dresses up in Jeans" . it is his view.. he might not be able to teach when a girl is in jeans but this is not the norm

right on everyone

Clothing for both men and women offers legitimacy to social distinctions. For men, clothes were mainly indicative of social status. While for women, fashion is regulated not only along lines of social distinction but also along lines of sexuality.

Styles which expose too much of the feminine body are condemned for their enticement. Such fashions are considered inappropriate for a 'virtuous' woman. Whether it is men stare at a woman's plunging neckline, or women snidely suggesting that the reason a colleague ropes in men are because of her tight skirt, any act of sexual harassment or violence is first attributed to the woman's clothing, never to the man's lack of conduct.

Immodest clothing of women is tempting men to commit crimes like rape, sexual harassment, murders etc. Teen girls should possess the wisdom that certain attires that they wear may not be acceptable to others. Some female workers in companies wear tight attires or tomboyish attires to which male workers are provoked. Therefore women should be careful while choosing their attires. Hence the implementation of dress code in companies, schools, colleges and in temples preserves tradition and culture. It also ensures the protection and respect for women in the Indian society.

yes being completely covered from head to toe will NOT prevent sexual harassment or assault but a man or a woman actually likely to be attracted to discovered one.