September 21, 2005
No sex please, we’re IndianHealth and Medicine
As in all things, advertisements depict a rosier world than the one we actually live in. The Kama Sutra references in Manish’s post below make it seem like India is becoming more sexually liberal, but a recent story from the BBC points out that India is still quite repressed. In this case, a couple was threatened with jail for public indecency. 
What did they do? They kissed … at their wedding:
An Israeli couple being married in India have found that you may not kiss the bride - the pair were fined $22 for indecency for their wedding embrace. A court in Rajasthan imposed the fine after Alon Orpaz and Tehila Salev had decided to get married in a traditional Hindu ceremony in Pushkar. Priests were offended when the couple kissed and hugged during the chanting of religious verses. The apologetic couple said they were unaware public kissing was banned.
The couple, who had met in India while travelling separately, paid the 1,000-rupee fine for “committing an act of indecency” to avoid a 10-day jail sentence. [Link]
[UPDATE: Reader Dhaavak points us to a recent AFP file photo of a young couple making out in a Delhi park. Check out their body language: he has his hands on his hips, and she’s fixing her dupatta.]
Nor is this the only case of legal action for absurdly minor PDA. Three years ago, Pune university enacted a ban on kissing, hand-holding or even cuddling on campus:
Action will be taken against couples found holding hands!An Indian university has declared its campus a strict “no love” zone, declaring a ban on kissing and hand-holding on its grounds. The vice chancellor of western India’s Pune university, Ashok Kolaskar, says courting couples could damage the reputation and social values of the 100-year-old institution.
”Action will be taken against couples found holding hands, kissing or indulging in any form of public display of affection,” warns a notice signed by [sic] the Mr Kolaskar. [Link]
Apparently, the campus had become a magnet for canoodling couples:
The sprawling 411-acre grounds with their lawns, trees and shady spots even attract young lovers from outside who masquerade as students to get into the campus.
“Unlike the city parks the university campus is even free from voyeurs. It is safer and more comfortable a place for us,” said one student, speaking on condition of anonymity.“During class-breaks on a stroll in the campus very often we stumble on entwined bodies in carnal positions,” said student Angela Pires. “What do these people think - do they want to turn the university into a love hotel?” she said. [Link]
However, one of the campus cops had questions about the enforceability of these regulations:
“We can stop the outside couples from entering the university …but it is difficult to take action against our own students; they can immobilise the university by staging a massive demonstration … After all, the courting students and their supporter friends far outnumber the students who oppose the intimacy of lovers in the campus…” [Link]
Student hormones coupled with the tradition of collective action. Sounds like the sixties might yet reach India 
.
p.s. does anybody know how these regulations have fared over the last 3 years?
p.p.s. Do you know how few photographs come up if you google phrases like “India kiss” “India kisses” “India kissing” ?
ennis on September 21, 2005 03:13 PM in Health and Medicine, Humor, News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
That's what I thought the Sepia HQ would be... but the rules just can't seem to keep Vinod and Abhi away from each other.
*sees tastefulness in the rear window. Waves good bye*
If students actually studied instead of cuddling and holding hands in college, there would be no more inspiration for hindi movies!
Everyone has been so raunchy lately! There's something in the air, I tells ya.
From the way Bollywood movies were changing, I thought maybe Indians were finally coming around. I remember being stunned a couple of years ago watching a really long, sloppy kiss in some Bollywood movie. It, like, violated the laws of physics to see those two brown faces smoosh together like that on-screen. But it's becoming more and more commonplace, isn't it? Maybe public attitude about kissing will soon follow. Didn't I read a post on SM about plans for an Indian Sex and the City? How's THAT going to work if everyone's grossed out by a little smoochin'?
I get the idea she's exaggerating.
oh, it's there all right - but ... - the need to reinforce personal faith by projecting beliefs onto another isnt restricted to a land or creed - deeper q in the collegiate context is if this is faith or sexual frustration - send in the penguins
personally - i think the pundits were right to object. the police was right to intervene - the judicial system was right to allow the newlywed to get off with a token slap on the wrist... - and yet i'm deeply, deeply sorry the couple had to go through this.
Rupa, I think Hindi movies are changing, but ever-so-slowly. Every day there is a piece in the Indian entertainment press about how such-and-such actress isn't going to kiss on screen. And when there is a kiss on screen, it's a huge, huge deal.
They take their kama sutra instruction *very* seriously in western Pune, I tell you...
Now that's an interesting concept. Carrie: Kareena. Miranda: Mira. Charlotte: Shalini. Samantha: Sameera. Mr. Big: ok, thats a tough one. I'd gladly watch the desi version of SATC just to see lots of long sloppy kisses, but no sex please, I couldn't handle that.
i think its absolutely hilarious,
i got 3 things to say
1)now those stories in india about teens getting caught having sex in internet cafes are beginning to make sense
2)students in india study enough anyways, let them do what they want
3)hindi movies have gone to shit in recent years, many of the big hits basically are scantially clad women like bipasha basu doing pelvic thrusts in the rain to roided up, short, clowns like salman khan
Maybe if all the indian students got laid once in a while, we could go back to days of dishoom dishoom when amitab was young and the stories still had plots.
Tragically this is true, i can think of very few times i have seen real passionate kisses between indians, i mean you always see some nasty gross indians groping each other and making out all wasted at the club.
Perhaps there is some bearing on why the majority of desis in america have warped perceptions on sex, love and relationships.
And who can't be kept away from ya, Cicatrix beloved ??
oh minegawd! How scandalous!
Am guessing we didnt get to be a billion strong by avoiding sex altogether.
cmon, you cant beleive all this hoopla in the media. Its so lame..so not in line with reality
Sumita
seriously! perhaps the mutineers are planning to turn this into a pay site, and you know there's only one content-driven internet business model that works!
peace
Let the kids do it when they're young. sex is never fun for the pros. old whore's don't do much giggling
Hardly. Haven't you heard Cicatrix? I don't mix blogging with pleasure.
I dunno, Abhi. You're talking about founding a monastic order - what do you think they do up there, anyway? What Cic@rix is describing sounds very ... aposite.
true... but i don't think of indians as particularly amorous people like say... the italians? i think the importance of family has made sex this occasional ceremonial practice in indian culture instead of a sport like it should be ;)
The no public kissing rule, along with the no public hand-holding, no public affection, etc., was another stressor on my crumbling vestern marriage in Trivandrum. Just one among many, but still.
I couldn't kiss my husband in public, but I remember a female friend picking up my hand, holding it and playing with it in an office. That felt truly bizarre and confusing. Intellectually, I understood the Asian same-gender PDA thing, but decades of American physical and social conditioning against it made it very weird.
Cicatrix, you forgot the proverbial "not that there is anything wrong with that".
I want to understand it a little better, do you have any pictures ;)
et tu! I don't even see the need for a disclaimer...of course there's nothing wrong with that.
O'Ya Bula Bula Bi, sadly, no one is chasing me. They're awfully strict with the guest bloggers you know. High security precautions and such. Especially since I'm Sri Lankan and they were confused about the Tamil Tiger suicide bombing thing...Why, Ennis still tries to frisk me for explosives!
Do you guys think the amount of sex a couple has is relative to the amount of pda that same couple exhibits? That seems to be implied by a few of your comments. I didn't think there was a relation.
Is it really just a ceremonial practice in India? If it is, don't move in with your folks!
That is a bit bizarre. I had no idea that was the norm!
Angie, I think more research may be required in this area.
It really freaks me out how comfortable men are with other men in India (and I'm referring to straight men). In 2 weeks my husband and brother-in-law still could not get used to seeing 3 guys up against each other on one scooter .. with their arms wrapped around each other!
It really freaks me out that people are so homophobic in the US. Why are people so insecure with their sexuality?? If you are a man and hold hands with another man , you will turn gay ?? ridiculous
On same sex PDA, physical affection has taken new forms right here in NYC. (not merely exotic India)
http://www.cuddleparty.com/
Sumita (highly amused at stereotypes)
I have highly reliable evidence that Cicatrix is concealing a weapons of mass destruction related program on her person. If I fail to inspect, the UN will lose all credibility! Interestingly, I have similar intelligence about DD too ;)
Personal space is a function of culture and geographical data.
When 1 B polulation is squished in a smaller area, people get used to each other's physical being a lot more, out of sheer necesity.
I for one find it very funny when in a New York crowded subway, people are so " squeamish" about being close to each other, that they will do anything to avoid eye contact.
The eye contact things cracks me up.
Sumita
You're trying to avoid provocation, actually. Staring is considered hostile here and not so much in India.
Manish
LOL, of course I know that. What I am asking is why should a look cause a person to feel so defensive. It is amusing. a lot of times people are merely staring into space and not at someone, and yet people get all knotted up. Its very funny. Its avoidance of human contact in a way, all of which is considered suspicious. People find it impossible to relate to strangers for the most part, something which may be very amusing and sterile to folks who have grown up in friendlier atmospheres (this is specific to New York though)
Sumita
Sumita:
Staring is considered offensive in India as well. If you're getting a scolding, you're not supposed to look the other person in the eye (that's insolence), you're supposed to look away. The US is far more glance friendly in terms of normal interactions. What varies is the interpretation of staring amongst strangers.
Staring is considered hostile here and not so much in India.
this sort of thing varies by region in the USA. in big cities a lot of the friendly banter and eye contact between strangers seems lacking (unless both strangers find each other attractive or something). also, an immigration lawyer my dad retained in the 1980s told him during his sponsorship to make eye contact with any officials who interviewed him, because many asians wouldn't do that out of respect...but in the USA that was an indication you were hiding something.
Now this homophobia - do you guys think it applies to the West at large or US specifically??? I do not think that Europeans are that homophobic.
And btw, Ennis you married to DD??? or is it just a crush thing :)
My understanding is that the uproar was because the Israeli couple kissed at a religious ceremony in a temple in Pushkar, and that was why the priests were offended. Generally, public kissing would be no-no in most parts of India, but I don't think it'd get you arrested, unless you did it in some sacred space...
Sumita,
In US, friendly stare/ hi is very common (more in mid-west, South, west coast than on east coast) on the street. However, a big NO NO in the restrooms and public transport.
Same sex friendly, casual contact is a taboo in public except father-son or in the sports arena (football field, basketball court, etc.) or you want to make statement about your preferences.
I agree with Ennis on scolding. However, opposite-sex staring is very pronounced in India. Same sex friendly contact is not a issue in India or in Middle East or in South America or even in Europe yet - it might change with MTV, all the Amrekan TV channels.
Everyone Else,
Public display of affection has always been there in India (even if it was frowned upon) and now it is more. Guys, go to any Indian University library, you will know.
"but in the USA that was an indication you were hiding something."
That is 100 % correct.
Kush
I worked for a whole year in the south and yes, was blown away by the warmth and the friendliness(however stereotypical it sounds) Compared to NYC, it seemed like I was in a different country.
Now, am used to it, but NYC is a little bizarre in terms of human contact at first. Very amusingly self important.
Ennis
There is way to look at someone older and more respectful without it being disrespectful, and actually showing attention.(and hence respect)Your point about scolding is well made.
Desmond Morris would have a field day with this discussion
Sumita
Yeah, I hate it too. But it's how I was raised; it goes beyond intellect. Heck, I was raised in the frosty Midwest and had to teach myself how to hug as greeting when I lived in California. I still can't cope with the French "kissy-kissy" greeting; I instinctively pull my face away from any non-intimate who tries to kiss it.
I thought my hand-holding friend was very sweet, and I was truly touched, but all kinds of involuntary alarms were going off in my brain that I had to suppress. Social conditioning is a powerful thing. It is sad; I imagine being less physically isolated would be healthy for me.
Argh, @#!! blockquote tags.
NYC is very friendly, just busy. But people talk to strangers all the time, unlike in the 'burbs. They're comfortable with human contact.
Heck, sometimes they're not even hitting you up for spare change ;)
NYC is very friendly, just busy. But people talk to strangers all the time, unlike in the 'burbs. They're comfortable with human contact.
i've visited new york city a several times in the past few years, and i agree. i think the reputation for unfriendliness is bullshit. that being said...there is a lot less shootin' the shit. being from oregon, i was on the other end of the spectrum in the south, i would always get pissed at the time wasted by the clerks bantering with customers who were buying something. but down there that was normal behavior.... (depends on city-rural thing too, houston ain't small town, though smaller cities like nashville seem to maintain for the southern charm).
Hardly. Haven't you heard Cicatrix? I don't mix blogging with pleasure.
Then Valentines Day happened.
Angie, I think more research may be required in this area.
His monastic resolve crumbles already.
Well NYC obviously consists of myriad experiences. (The village experience being different form upper east side being different from brooklyn being different from mid town office world. and so forth)
But the eye contact thing as being seen as hostile is a very typical NYC thing(I think). I actually read it years back on a list of NYC quirks on some website and found it funny.
check No 12 on the foll list. This is the list I found this fact on and laughed for the first time.
http://www.artsandmusicpa.com/NYC/nyc.htm
Maybe the stereotypical, fast-talking, eye contact-avoiding New Yorker is mildly autistic. More likely just typically male.
Manish
Thats hilarious!!
(and deliciously stereotypical)
Sumita
Actually, I find NYC (where I'm from) far friendlier than small city / suburban middle America (where I live now). In NYC, strangers will talk to you. Out here, not so. I can go weeks without talking to somebody who I haven't already been introduced to (with the exception of waitresses and checkout clerks). It's very insular. When I'm in NYC, I can't say that I go a day without talking to somebody random that I've never met before.
O'Ya Bula Bula Bi:
A gentle-blogger never kisses and tells. You'd have to check with
the missus, I mean you should ask a certain Ms. Desi Dancer herself if you want to know.During class-breaks on a stroll in the campus very often we stumble on entwined bodies in carnal positions,
Man, this is the ultimate testament to my geekiness. I spent 4 years at Pune University and NEVER once came across such scenes....I was always rushing to the next class and never "strolled".. :(
Of course , this was in the mid 90s, and I believe a lot has changed in Pune since then. The growth of call centers and the huge software industry has brought in an influx of non puneites.
I am trying to find out if the ban is still on in Pune...will keep you guys updated.
SP - I don't think that this person actually stumbled upon people having sex, I think that she's a prude and was objecting to encountering couples cuddling on the grass.
i got the search query "round and brown" coming into my weblog today. just thought i'd offer that since we're on the topic of sepia sex....
I have my excited face on. Ennis do you have this on reasonable authority? One of my great laments in life (I only have 3) is that I was born too late to enjoy the best of decades gone by. I think I would've enjoyed 1967. Now, if the sixties are going to hit India...I think I may have found my calling.
I feel rather faint.
I guess NYC features on both end of the spectrum as in extremes - ppl talk to strangers, and yet on the other hand they scream and curse like nobodys bizness. Maybe its not so much about friendliness as it is about politeness. One thing for sure, most ppl visitng the place would concur on the politeness factor.
Razib - I am disappointed; no stats? I am sure you could have dug something up on parallel indicator such a road rage etc :)
Oh I've got weapons of mass destruction alright. Cicatrix and I have a female wrestling duo, called the WMDs. She does helicopter kicks and I snap and twitch my hips bollywood style; we inflict all sorts of damage and stun our opponents.
Bongsy, I totally get the brown Austin Powers vibe off you... if the 60s arrive in India, you'll be money, yaar.
Cica and I have dvds, too
Brown Austin Powers eh? I've always seen myself as more of a Doctor Evil (geddit?) but I can live with the Austin tag, baby. Who knows...my teeth may well have turned out like Her Majesty's Top Secret Agent's had I not got my teeth de-Britishified. Thank God for Red Cross free orthodontistry!
I'm feeling sad now, I REALLY would've liked to have lived in the 60s and early 70s. DISCO! I would've been a legend in my own time. #Disco deawana...#
Now before I order the cicatrix/DesiDancer non-stop mud-wrestling dhamaka, can I just confirm the identity of this Mr Cicatrix? Is he really Mr Cicatrix and more importantly is he going to beat me up if I buy the DVD?
*that's supposed to be deewana. Actually you know what? I don't know how to spell it.
A+, not T-to-T&A.
Actually, I find NYC (where I'm from) far friendlier than small city / suburban middle America (where I live now). In NYC, strangers will talk to you. Out here, not so. I can go weeks without talking to somebody who I haven't already been introduced to (with the exception of waitresses and checkout clerks). It's very insular. When I'm in NYC, I can't say that I go a day without talking to somebody random that I've never met before.
I too agree here. When in NY, I feel like I actually belong, unlike here in the smaller suburbs....course Philly, which is about 60 miles south of here...that's a whole 'nother story.
Staring is considered offensive in India as well. If you're getting a scolding, you're not supposed to look the other person in the eye (that's insolence), you're supposed to look away. The US is far more glance friendly in terms of normal interactions. What varies is the interpretation of staring amongst strangers.
Whew. I always hated eye contact, even though I too got the ol 'you're hiding something' rag. Glad to know that it's actually acceptable NOT to in India. Gives more points to my side. ;)
I for one find it very funny when in a New York crowded subway, people are so " squeamish" about being close to each other, that they will do anything to avoid eye contact.
That's because they wait for the bus terminals. ;)
It's just affection, and I rather hate the way touching is seen as a sexual thing in the West.
I don't mind the kind of affection between friends, but the kind of affection between lovers in public has just gotten kinda sickening. I was brought up finding the public displays of near orgies to be unruly offensive and more so rather immoral. That was for home, and not when you have company either. It also give the impression that they must prove something. I was recently up to NY to visit family, and upon reaching the terminal to get back to PA, there were a young pair in the same terminal lane who had to practically make it their bedroom, and were making many people not very happy. Especilaly because along with slobbering not only on each other, managed to get a good bit on anyone near them, and to make things worse, when they were in mid embrace, managed to rump - bump at least 5 or 6 people nearby. They acted like little kids who found out about peanut butter and jelly for the first time, but on a far less innocent level.
I'm feeling sad now, I REALLY would've liked to have lived in the 60s and early 70s. DISCO! I would've been a legend in my own time. #Disco deawana...#
That's just golden. I wish I could have lived during those days too. My aunt tells me how great it was all the time.
I have a list where people wishing to participate in an exhaustive survey may want to sign up. Ofcourse, since this is about brown people, you need to be brown to qualify. Or tanned at the very least. Or have a cool jazz and blues inspired take on an ancient Indian epic if you can't get a fake bake.
*gloating at my inclusiveness*
i have the photos of the said Pune University thingy. but i don't believe them... anyone else wanna confirm it?
The eye-contact-threatening-thing is the same here in London as it is in New York, especially on public transport. If you stare at another male stranger here he'll either think your gay or are attempting to pick a fight with him.
Same-sex contact is not like it is on mainland Europe and, again, is probably much more like the US.
With regards to the open (some would say excessive) male-male groping back in India: I wonder if, in many cases, this is a manifestation of sexual frustration, ie. they can't express physical affection/attraction towards women in public so they touch their male buddies too much instead. Just a theory, don't all scream at me at once ;) In fact, extrapolating this further, is it unmarried men over there who hold hands with their male friends so much, or do the married guys do it too ?
It's an interesting reversal of human behaviour in India, though; male-female open physical affection is seen as immoral/unnatural, yet it's deemed perfectly "normal" and acceptable for guys to hold hands and be all over each other. Curious.
I am from a city called Madurai, not from any of those big Metro cities in India. My parents are not educated that much. they are Just 4th or 5th grade dropout's. From my school days (this in 80's), when I talk with a girl, I am made fun, laughed at ridiculed by my male friends. So inorder to be accepted by my male friends that I am a very normal person I avoid the other girls in the class. As time goes by this problem becomes complex totally to the extent, I completely avoid any interaction with girls. One reason could be shyness and other reason could be how the society looks at him. These are major factors that influence the same sex gropping....Nothing to do with Gayness or anyting. First of all we are not even that much aware of what is being Gay in India.
To be honest, I never even heard anything about Same sex " Gay" concept in India. May be I was not aware of this thing at the time. The "fire" movie brought the idea of lesbianismm in India. It was very difficult to accept these kind of things at first. To be honest it was shocking.
As everybody here knows many people in India have thier first sexual experience after getting married, a concept of "Gay" is still considered something out of space.
I just want to give you folks an idea of what goes on in a Indian's mind in India through me.
By the way I am just a very normal person like any one and I do have lot of male friends, whom we hang with. We touch a lot, grope a lot, but this has nothing to do with anyhting called "GAY". I just want to make my point very clear.
Please dont look at us, the same way you look at your fellow Americans or Fellow Brits.
I'm thinking natural human behavior can include a lot of physical affection that just isn't sexual. Touch is sexualized in the US, but intellectually I know it doesn't have to be.
I've also seen guys all over each other in Malaysia, so it's not unique to India. I don't think Malaysia has the same degree of prohibition against opposite-sex public affection though, but I'm not sure.
I eagerly await for Razib's input on the socio-cultural evolution of touch taboos.
(And, um, thanks, DesiDudeInAustin, for finding a way to include my pale ass in your research project fantasy.)
dont sweat the details. just casual banter out here, indian in india. contrary to the general thread, it is fairly common for women who are good friends to walk around arm in arm - think sisters not lovers. it is also fairly common for secure men to express their approval with back slapping. proximity is taboo for those with nothing better in mind. early mornings, it isnt uncommon for trucks to be lugging a bunch of heavy set men in a tightfitting cab to a construction site - i suppose a guy can be sensitive about it and hang out at the back in sub-zero temperature, but sensibly most people opt out of that - just a matter of circumstance and how much thought one puts into it - to each his own - just to point you to another flavor of the original post. different threshold, same sense and sensibilities.
Some of the "off-beat" movie makers in India are out-of-touch with reality of India and live in a fantasy bubble assuming they live in the west.
As a result they "think" that the western social issues would apply in India (like lesbianism).
In their west-aping bubble they dont see the obvious social issues of India, which are different from the social issues of the west.
Absolutely correct. The problem is that male-female touch amongst people who are not close relatives IS sexualised in India; it's interpreted as being solely about sex, not affection. I've been at funerals where people even have vociferously complained about something minor like a women discreetly holding her husband's hand to comfort him as his deceased father is shortly to be cremated.
eg. "How could she hold his hand like that in public, and at his father's funeral ?! My husband/wife and I never touch each other in public, we never even sit too closely next to each other on the sofa in front of other people. Don't they have any respect for their elders ? How could she do that in front of all those people, including her mother-in-law ?!"
Me: "Er...she was just doing it as a gesture of support for her husband at an obviously traumatic time for him. It's not a big deal..."
Response: "But they were touching each other in front of everyone else..."
You get the idea. This is probably an extreme example, but many of the more conservative people back in India do have problems with the idea that not everything between men and women has to be purely about sex (even if the relationship isn't necessarily strictly platonic). Ironically, as discussed previously, excessive physical contact and displays of physical affection between men isn't regarded as being sexual at all, even if such behaviour may be viewed as actually being wildly inappropriate and overstepping-the-mark out here in the West (or at least in the UK and the US).
The previous posted mentioned how he had unfortunately been ridiculed by other people when attempting positive interactions with girls in his younger days. Now this happens to everyone when they're kids, even here in the West, but if it continues over a long period of time (including when they become adults), you can imagine the psychological/dysfunctional impact this would have on the mindsets, attitudes and behaviours of such people when they're older.
(Please note, I am speaking generally -- I'm not saying there's anything wrong with "Indian in India" in post #64; he seems like a nice guy).
So, my husband and I were talking about this post last night, and I has the passing thought that I think kissing might be a 'western' sign of intimacy, in the sense that I don't think it's a natural gesture of intimacy outside of societies exposed to 'western' influences. Does anyone have any thoughts and/or real information on the biological and anthropological history of the kiss? Prove me wrong, people :).
I'll focus on popular literature to have a framework accessible to all - rather than personal anecdotes. there are gay south asians out there - some more out than others. Shyam Selvadurai is one - by the way he writes these amazingly vivid snapshots of Toronto in the Globe and Mail every saturday - recommended reading for the TO-philes. Vikram Seth's novel also has a heavy bit of male on male action going on in the boarding schools of d'dun etc - no doubt based on what he's heard. Movies based on their stories would have a touch more realism than the crap you see out there. I agree with you if you were generally pissing on hindi movies and lamenting how they transmogrify south asian concepts into something unreal, weird - but then this is the same industry that produced this
damn
dhaavak,
Vikram Seth does NOT by any extension represent regular India. I am talking about 99% India. That India who arent even aware of existance of fancy British style boarding schools of Dehradun.
If I am not mistaken Vikram Seth is a westerner. (I am not sure about this)
All of these ENGLISH novel writers in India also represent citizens of the bubble.
One cant really express completely the situation of India in ENGLISH language. Let me give u an example. People write "I have my fingers crossed" in English, because its a cultural thing. Growing up I never saw anyone crossing their fingers in anticipation. (but they wrote "crossing fingers" while writing)
The debate on Homosexuality is totally different topic, which will generate 100s of comments I am sure.
One thing that is totally MISSING in the overly sexualized western culture, is the idea that a person might be a-sexual.(That idea is not entertained at all, IMO. I dont claim to be expert on any of these, after all I grew up playing gulli-danda with my Sindhi friends :-)) )
I'd also nominate Wayson Choy... whose writing is just so loving, and reflects such a strong sense of family - he has to be kin - I hereby appoint him the Order of Sepia.
now... make movies on their stories, and it wont be "out of touch" any more.
ya I know some of you are thinking of manji but I personally find her insufferable, so there - it's my list.
Sri lankan nominee to the Order of Sepia:
Shyam Selvadurai. The link is to a 2003 article in which he talks about moving back to SL with his boyfriend:
One cant really express completely the situation of India in ENGLISH language. Let me give u an example. People write "I have my fingers crossed" in English, because its a cultural thing. Growing up I never saw anyone crossing their fingers in anticipation. (but they wrote "crossing fingers" while writing)
Well Said RC.
I read somewhere "He kicked the bucket". I am like somebody kicked somebody else bucket when I first read. But that wasnt making any sense to me. So I have to refer my faithful Oxford Dictionary meaning. Then I knew what it means. In English, each phrase has its own origin, which is more cultural to the native English.
Even the English, most of the Indians we speak here would be exact word to word translation from our native language, which wouldnt make sense to a westener.
Dhavaak u r right. There was a movie called "Shabnum Mausi" acted by Ashutosh Rana.
I have read in many Indian weekly magazines about the same sex marriages that take place in either ruaral punjab or UP or Bihar. These things do happen......
Well, then I'm not surprised with all the repressed affection, that people will outlet it on their own gender... even if it has nothing to do with sex. The point is, all people need to express and receive affection.... unless you're a sociopath.
About homosexuality on the subcontinent: we all have at least one naive relative who denies that it exists or ever existed! Here's an article about same sex love in India.
Rani
Jayadeva's Gita Govinda , written in madhur rasa, (12th century AD)completely disproves that kissing didnt exist as an expression in the Indian setting.
All of Rasa Leela in the vaishnava tradition is replete with sexual depiction of Krishna's love for gopis and for Radha. The regions which have carried this form of Vaishnava tradition of radha are probably more comfortable with sexual expressions than others.
Of course, changes have occurred but some parts of the country and some traditions(like the shakta or tantric traditions) more than others are more comfortable with sexual expression.(That is a whole other discussion)
I do believe that sexuality has been seen as merely one part of many other facets of man-women relationships in Indian culture. This creates stress in contemporary Indians as many dont know how to reconcile the disparate parts. The west (for the most part, of course there are exceptions) does not see woman as anything other than a sexual being, and hence all relationships are colored by this view. This has had its strengths in freeing women but it has its limitations too. (as is evident in many contemporary writing about the overemphasis on sexual idenity in little girls to the detriment of their healthy emotional growth.)
Viewing any relationship betwen same sex people suspiciously is also part of this overemphasis on sexual issues. Freud was probably more relevant than is believed in this regard.
There is a lot of literature on sexuality that talks about all this stuff. George Feuerstein's work is relevant in this aspect.
Sumita
Angie
You are so right about that. there are many sham marriages, which cover this us. Only close family members know all is not "kosher" in the image presented to society. Sometimes children are adopted to give a picture of complete acceptance.
The woman usually remains silent and the ones who rebel, are not really given the support they ned to extricate themselves from such "arrangements"
Sumita
thank you for backing me there Indian in India (InX3)
Probably followed by "I did'nt even dare look at my husband's face until after our third son was born."
You know, this whole "keeping a distance in public" thing probably explains all those old black & white wedding photos from the 1st-Generation, where they're both standing about 5 feet apart from each other.......
I dont know if any thing Freud wrote has been challenged at all. I think in the west Freud's word is treated like Gospel.
Sex is important ,its a biological process.Indians are dismissive of the fact that it is shown in public,but you see the western influence is rising .
My feeling is as an indian i want it be open and i think the religious places should be kept coz of the respect and attitude we have and also the culture doesn't allow.The noise you are hearing is from the upper classes,ask the real people ,who have known the indian tradition,that its not modest to be open in public sexually.
Now but you say some will say its my freedom,things like youth will say its my life all that self.I think more than moral policing,what we as indians should do is to have passion towards are culture,being not open towards seeing sex in movies and etc. etc. is not backward.We should have open thoughts,one who wants to see and so ,do it ,one who doesn't he doesn't,the deal ends.
More of the laws and all,it should be taught in family and when he grows up,if he feels like not following his parents,its his wish.
Thats the bottom line it should all be about personal affliation,rather than being liberal and backward.
Jai bharat
when i was 13 my family went to india. we were in the village at someone's house when my dad (who is such a comedian) put his arms around my mom and started laughing because he knew exactly what he was doing and thought it was funny. now i should mention that my parents are an anomaly and don't really fit the typical "indian parents" mould. they are very affectionate with each other at home-even when they are out walking in the mall they hold hands.
back to the village, we now have a picture of my mom putting her hands inbetween her and my dad and trying to get away from him. it was all funny to me at the time, when i couldn't really understand how conversative indians can be sometimes, but i think it really shows how these ideas can be changed but can also resurface depending on the situation.
Only by literature and theater people, not psychologists by and large.
i am a student studying in london,uk. and i am extreamly shocked , when i saw some seens, like a couple (under age), kissing in a public place. even a country like europe hasnt banned these seens and am really thrilled to know what was the ultimate aim of indian government , or the person who made the law, not to have a kiss or even cant hold the hand of the partner in a public place. i guess indian government is really concerned about the life and life style of coming generation, that may be a reason for the same law. And comparing to the culture i have seen in uk, is really pathetic as in india. so strongly agree with the comments made by sumita, and rani..