Great topic, Manish! I heard 1st about this problem from an Asian American online mag last year. Many college-aged Asian guys on this discussion forum were complaining about Asian girls preferring whites. I have been to Cali a few times and noticed this, as I had in my hometown of Tucson, AZ (though it is only 3% Asian). I wonder is this b/c of the Western standard of manly beauty or b/c these are young women? What do you all think?

image and media portrayal of beauty is the main reason for this. When the most common plastic surgery among asian girls is an eye job, it becomes clear why. I have many successful asian friends who are having problems finding gals.

Jin on "Lost" is extremely handsome. I've met some attractive, beautiful featured, tall, athletic asian men - they are out there. I also think the perception is changing.

When people refuse to date within their own "group" as a steadfast rule, that's pretty sad and says something about their self-esteem (might have a self-hate thing going on). Not that I think one has to date exclusively within one's own group... sometimes it doesn't work out that way depending on one's social circles.

Odd huh. Just the other day I remember thinking to myself that some of these Asian men were hot.
Am I the only one noticing the tanned,tech-savvy, breakdancing HOT Asian men??

From crayonpeople.com: aznlover.com. It isn't porn, it's just a site that celebrates the beauty of the Asian man. If you google Oh ji Oh (an actor/model), you'll come up with some really great photographs of a gorgeous man who also happens to be Korean. He was in a really hot Korean movie about a torrid love affair called "Belle", I suggest a viewing. I'm South Asian and I've dated all sorts of Asian men. I dated the most beautiful Japanese man. I am not one to have types or races or certain tastes (unless you count beautiful hands and a strong jawline) but I find Korean men extremely attractive. Movies like "House of Flying Daggers" and "Anna and the King" have made many Asian actors mainstream (Chow Yun-Fat) and are contributing to the opening of the West's eyes to the beauty of the Asian male form. Certainly some ideas persist. Asian men were thought to be sexually devious, lacking in potency where their genitals were concerned and all around lacking in lust. They were less than men. Opposed to this is the idea that Indian men and African American men are potent (the Kama Sutra and that the word "Tar Baby" meant a woman who could not lay off of the African American men) and actually have larger than life equipment and lust. Approximation of a culture through the female definitely keeps up with the idea of colonization (how else to overtake a culture, control a culture but to take to bed the women?) Asian women were always a hot commodity, a sex symbol. I'm not saying it's a part of these girls to be sex symbols or that they wish to be sex symbols but the idea of exoticism persists. It's easier to go with what everyone says. Unfortunately, the Asian man gets the shaft.

long duk dong was a dork. but so was almost every teen male in that movie. and long duk got a caucasian woman which is actually somewhat radical for it's time.

some people act like the the long duk dong characterization was a crime against humanity.
and that someone should go to jail for it.

the caucasian dork in that movie with blonde hair and blue eyes was completely obnoxious
throughout almost the whole movie. he was desperate, pathetic, devious and immature.
he acted like a pervert.

it's odd how the sexism in traditional asian culture is not brought when discussing the outmarriage and outdating issue.

i knew a korean-american woman who emphatically declared that she hated asia.
her father was also a traditional patriarch,
and a bit of a bully.

while it may be true that asian-american males are having a tough time finding dates...especially the ones that are not obviously 'hot' or don't do break-dancing, not all the reasons asian-american women want to date 'outside' are bad.

I think it's pretty sad that so many Asian women only date white men. It definitely has to do with societal perceptions.

Of course, these Asian women aren't doing themselves a favor--since the white men they date still tend to view them as exotic sex objects. So, they are only really harming themselves....

Not surprising why asian women may date white men. What's surprising is why white men date asian women. Whatever may be the reason, such a cross (cultural) pollination is a welcome news because when you are in rome you can't be brown.

OK, for a Brit reading this is helluva confusing. Asian, South Asian, Indian...

I think the word 'Asian' should never have been used in the first place. You use it for Oriental/East Asian, we use it for the BROWNS.

rl why is it surprising white men date Asian women? Please explain. Why is it more surprising than vice versa?

Lastly, Daksha, talking of breakdancing Asian men, I was supporting a friend (who you've already seen in my video) at the UK BBoy Champs today. So many Asian men - meaning the Oriental kind - and almost NO South Asians there. Koreans and Japanese love their breakdancing. I'm sure you'd've had had plenty of young studs to choose from. Not that I was looking of course. Ahem.

... for a Brit reading this is helluva confusing.

First over gets the shortest, default label. Enjoy it.

This subject has been debated for a number of years on usenet. A collection of postings/articles on the topic can be found here (some dating back to 1990)

Why Do Asian Women Date White Men?

My conjecture in this case would be that both groups tend to share the same sharp features (Greco-Roman noses/eyes) that the media tends to value.

black men don't have sharp faces. i think the "sharp features" as a primary component of this is implausible (italians have sharper faces than northern europeans in my experience).

The real reason is a latent racism that runs deep, silent and often not acknowledged. I have seen really attractive and succesful asian girls date pathetic white guys. They could easily get an attractive asian guy who is dynamic and successful at the same time. Deep down there is an inferiority complex, an urge to climb up the racial ladder. I think this is predominantly because civilization as we see today is largely western in nature. The white race seems to be an embodiment of what is supposed to be cool.

Also, I do not really buy that asian girls care for Indian/south asian guys, I do not see that happening at all in the school that I go to. Maybe first generation asian girls, but even then I am not too sure.

This subject has been debated for a number of years on usenet.

Yup, but not the desi angle.

The white race seems to be an embodiment of what is supposed to be cool.

Not of cultural cool, rather power.

... I do not see that happening at all in the school that I go to.

UC Berkeley has a large desi population and a very pro-Asian-American mindset.

Neither I (brown) nor my ex (yellow) knew of any other brown-yellow couples when we were together. Still pretty rare.

Interestingly in Japan, the image of the "masculine" male is giving way to a more feminized one... because surprisingly that's what Japanese women want.

In Japan, men find feminine side

Doesn't seem like that will translate well over here.

Sounds like American metrosexuals.

In one of the discussion classes I taught last year at Berkeley, half of the Asian girls in the room stated that they do not prefer to date Asian men

As this is written, it only says that these women did not prefer Asian men to non-Asian men. Is this what was intended? Or was it supposed to read "stated that they prefer not to date Asian men"?

manish -- the pictures of the East Asian men you show are caricatures. A little silly to perpetuate this rivalry between East and South Asian men.

the pictures of the East Asian men you show are caricatures.

Actually, only one is, paired with his '70s desi kitsch equivalent. Bruce Lee has also been reclaimed in some quarters as an Asian-American icon.

A little silly to perpetuate this rivalry between East and South Asian men.

Yup, most dating discussion devolves into the purely anecdotal. Consider the title.

I barely see any brown on yellow relationships at all. Far more common to see both groups dating whites and blacks.

Yeah, I was waiting for others' opinions, as I didn't know what the situation's like in the States. As for here, I can count the amount of Oriental-South Asian couples I've seen on one hand. Two friends, a Sikh chap and a Hong Kong girl, who went out for a while but I really can't think of any others. Whereas white rugby player and trendy Chinese girl is one of the most common couples in uni.

I just think there's a lot of latent racism. I was at a party on Friday night with a bunch of kids from SOAS, covering all hues possible and they came to the conclusion that Asians in general (as in, the whole continent) are the most racist people, with Chinese at the top of the list.

Sad really, cos I know two kids from an Indian-Japanese marriage and an Indian-Chinese marriage and they're both beautiful.

they came to the conclusion that Asians in general (as in, the whole continent) are the most racist people, with Chinese at the top of the list.

A wee bit hypocritical innit.

A wee bit hypocritical innit.

Well I did say to them that labelling a particular race as racist makes them racist. But they said "we're Chinese, so we're allowed to call the Chinese racist." So I didn't bother arguing.

... I can count the amount of Oriental-South Asian couples I've seen on one hand.

I'm guessing the essayist's subjects were actually talking about aspirational, stated rather than revealed preferences. 'Who do you think is attractive' vs. 'Who are you actually dating.'

I know several desi-East Asian couples, but yeah, it's not that common in the U.S. as far as I've seen.

Re: default labels, Indians don't even get to call ourselves Indians in the U.S. We're sidelined into 'East Indians.' We are all Oriya :) Thanks, Columbo.

in Singapore, Chinese-Indian pairings are very common these days.Many Indian guys prefer Chinese girls to Indian girls. Given the small Indian population, the Indian-Chinese intermarriage rate is hardly going to affect the Chinese male population but the issue has ruffled some feathers. At a university open forum, this chinese guy said that the sight of an indian guy with a chinese girl made his skin crawl.haha. chinese girls here love white(more) and Indian guys, which is strange cause when we were younger we used to get shit for being darkies.the indians i mean. you could be one foot into the grave and still find a bride in Asia, if you are white. this 'saying' is not entirely untrue. Judging from what I see in university etc, 'white worship' is going strong. The indian a distant second.

I have noticed that the number of 2-gen Asian-girl-Desi-boy couples in college has been slightly on the rise. It's still nowhere as compared to white-asian couples but there's a trend. My hypothesis is that this is because not only the college kids, but also their parents might be slowly warming up to that idea.

Also, I notice that girls from HK and S'pore are lots more open to dating desis, I guess because those societies have a mainstream desi presence.

My close friend (and roommate) is Japanese-American and he is quite the player. I talked to him about this and he thinks it's mostly a matter of confidence on part of the guy. But I have noticed that his charms mostly work on white girls. Even I tend to get more attention from Asian girls than him ;)

I know about 5 to 6 desi-asian relationships, although some of them can today be prefixed with an 'ex'.
It takes two to tango (or maybe Salsa by popular choice), and so I think its important to look at the other side of this as well - i.e. do desi (men) find asians attractive and would they date them? Date as in long term relationship here.

I have a feeling all the desi men are going to start crashing asian parties :)

Today's Washington Post has a writeup on this blog:

Angry Asian Man

He sure has a lot to be angry about...

i think there are more asian/indian couples on the west coast... not many here in the south.. here it's indian/white...i'm not surprised about the berkeley contigency... i think it's the same at ucla as well...

also on the west coast i've seen many hispanic/indian couples... hmm....

the united colors of benetton in full force...

Bong Breaker,

Amongst other things, I think that there's relatively less Far East-South Asian dating here in the UK because there are basically less people from the Far East here, certainly compared to their counterparts in the US. Maybe it's predominantly a factor of numbers.

Well I did say to them that labelling a particular race as racist makes them racist. But they said "we're Chinese, so we're allowed to call the Chinese racist." So I didn't bother arguing.

They do have a point (in their reasoning behind why they're "allowed" to say this, not necessarily their conclusion). For example, I think we all know that South Asians -- particularly the older generation -- can be extremely racist towards pretty much everyone. There is a huge amount of prejudice and culturally-sanctioned bigotry that goes on. Stating this doesn't necessarily make someone a "racist towards his/her fellow South Asians" -- it's a matter of being honest and speaking the truth as one has factually experienced it.

Everyone else:

black men don't have sharp faces. i think the "sharp features" as a primary component of this is implausible (italians have sharper faces than northern europeans in my experience).

Not all South Asians have sharp features either. There is a greater chance of this if you happen to be Punjabi/Kashmiri or Pakistani, but even then it's not guaranteed. Ditto for other North Indian communities.

As an undergrad, I dated more East and SE Asian women than Indian. Given that nearly a fifth of the undergraduate student body was Asian, it would be hard to go through college and not date an Asian. Before getting married to an Indian, my brother dated a Chinese woman (much to our parents' dismay) - so we've had first hand experience in this.

I can't say that these women dated me because they were actively avoiding men of their own ethnicity. They never spoke ill of Asian men.

Asian men should broaden their dating pool. I recently met a couple where a Thai guy was married to an attractive Mexican woman. Latinas seem pretty open in dating a man of any ethnicity.

Speaking from my personal experience only, one factor which makes dating Asian women a bit easier is that I don't feel that their parents are on the date with us. Too often when I've dated Indians, I get the feeling that I am being sized up sor spousal suitability. Granted, it may be irrational, but I have not felt the same vibe when dating Chinese women.

i hear a lot of anecdotal stories (often from asian dudes) have how asian chix say they have small dicks, or that they are momma's boys, or how white guys are all that and they disrespect them to their face. perhaps it's true, but perhaps not. who knows the exact dynamics going on here? i know a very "progressive" (green party affiliation) local politician who went back to south korea to get married to someone from the old country. how prevelant is this?

and confidence matters. if you are whining that you are a loser because of the way society perceives, you are already a loser before people even see what you look like! i would be willing to bet that stereotypes and other issues are a factor with asian guys, but the lack of confidence that this perception generates in many asian guys (who complain about it constantly to everyone, male and female, within hearing distance when relationships comes up) is not a chik magnet. i knew a short guy who was a loser because of his own attitude too. same dynamic, if you whine about being a loser because of the nature of who y ou are, you tag yourself as a loser as in individual before that can come into play.

Lots to say but not a lot of time, so here goes: In my opinion, this trend can really be attributed to racial stereotypes.

While I do not hold the stereotypes I am about to describe, I think most will agree they are commonly held. While these stereotypes may seem outdated, I think they are often internalized by the very people being stereotyped. In addition, these racial stereotypes are a double-edged sword- often working in favor of one gender while working against the other.

Asian people are stereotyped as being small, timid, submissive, "exotic", etc. This is a "positive" stereotype for Asian women, who are often fetishized by white men for these characteristics, but this is clearly a "negative" stereotype for Asian men as it emasculates them.

Let's extend this to African-Americans, who, as a group, are stereotyped as being aggressive, loud, strong people. Here, the tables are turned gender-wise- while this is a "positive" stereotype for black men who are seen as more masculine because of this stereotype, to the point where it extends to "size". On the other hand, this is a "negative" stereotype for black women, as it detracts from their femininity.

In my experience, Indians haven't been here long enough to have a stereotype that sticks, which is why we don't experience this as much. Although I have seen it to a small extent where Indian women complain about being called "exotic" and Indian men complain about being stereotyped as "geeks", it is certainly not as clear or as prevalent as with Asians and African-Americans.

Bottom line is that many minorities in groups for whom the stereotype works in their favor (Black men and Asian women)
often internalize these stereotypes and hold them against people of their own race, but opposite gender. In essence, I see this as a form of self-hatred as they are exploiting and propogating stereotypes against their own race.

straight, up have to stay the stereotypes about comportment and volume are true from what i've seen. browns tend to be in the middle i think, in singapore and malaysia they seem to have reps as loud-mounts vis-a-vi the chinese (personal communication from a malaysian and singaporean friend). there are likely intergroup differences in extroversion.

Amongst other things, I think that there's relatively less Far East-South Asian dating here in the UK because there are basically less people from the Far East here

Yeah but dude, there are far less brown people in the States (percentage-wise), I thoughta that one!

Hmm...all this stereotype talk - how many of you have actually dated people from other races? I really don't think stereotypes are that important. What happens is you make a group of friends and invariably your bf/gf comes from that group or one of their mates. So part of the reason that East-South Asian couples aren't common is cos those two groups don't hang around together all that much. Once they do - stereotypes don't matter, you either like someone or you don't.

Well perhaps stereotypes are important as they cause the separation in the first place, but I think the reason is more to do with a clan mentality.

Thanks, Columbo

Awesome! America was discovered by a detective in a dirty mac! Actually don't get me started on the term 'East Indian', it makes me hate Americans for being so mind-numbingly thick.

Nice post dude. I don't know about California but people are going to date other people as long as they are having fun (however that may be defined). If you ask me, asian girls dig white men because they have more fun dating that "culture". Maybe, our culture suppresses women too much.

i'm in that minority of "brown guy dating asian woman" and since entering this relationship over three years ago, this type of pairing has been rare in my heightened observation. we are in the bay area, spending half of our time in south bay and half of our time up in berkeley.

interesting post... i guess we're just damn seckzy ;)

think this situation is true for S asians also to a certain extent. You more S asian women with people of other race than S asian men(not to say its rare). Think there's a funny paradox where a typical indian guy will play around with women of different race and then settle down with someone from "back home". But indian girls try to stick with their "own race" most of the time. But statistics show that second gen indian girls are more likely to marry someone from another race(over 50% compared with 10-20% for guys). Even scary is the number of very succesful and educated desi girls who never get married. I don't have any stats on that, but from my own personal observation, i think its on the rise.

But statistics show that second gen indian girls are more likely to marry someone from another race(over 50% compared with 10-20% for guys).

can you cite anything? this analysis taken from the USA census shows almost no gender difference for 1.5 and 2 generation american browns.

Eh, why the hostility bong breaker? Mind-numbling thick? Er, no. Just a different culture and a different way to use language.

I only know one couple where a Chinese-American married an Indian-American (look, it's too late for me to learn the newest or latest or more fashionable identifiers, so this is it for me). It was in Palo Alto. This stuff takes time, integration happens slowly and over generations, and razib has it right. Lack of confidence and whining is generally not a turn on.....

And by 'too late for me", I mean, I'm too lazy to learn any new terms.

Anyhoo, I think all men are potentially gorgeous. I am truly catholic in my tastes. The men who have made my heart go pitter-pat in the past have included the following (and by pitter-pat, I mean find attractive, not that I have dated all these men, or wished to date them. Just most attractive, is all): a slightly zaftig Iowan who played high school football and had the bluest eyes, a balding Italian who did bench research, smoked like chimney, and played semi-pro football back home in Italy (or so the sexy nerd says....), a Chinese-American medical resident who is six feet tall and has the roundest, widest face and shortest nose, a Syrian immigrant with a slender build and a slightly high pitched voice to go with the most beautiful eyes, and an Indian immigrant who looked like Sanjay Dutt (the ex). All this lovely variety......

By the way, I will likely regret this comment and soon ask Manish to delete it (although, no one I know is remotely interested in blogs. I've tried, but they all think it's boring).

Bong Breaker,

Some more statistics.........
My sister-in-law is a Chinese (Taiwanese) American. My brother met her in graduate school. Also, I have a cousin sister-in-law who is a Sikh, another cousin will soon marry a Russian, and one of my relative's (by marriage) sister is married to a muslim - this happened when they were in India.

One of my father's former graduate student's brother (a muslim) is married to a hindu.

Otherwise, I want to stay out of this discussion for a simple reason - they will not like me talking about them in a public forum without their knowledge.

Kush, yes, my families experience is varied as well and for the same reasons as you state, I have stayed away from talking about them here. About myself, well, I blather away....

" About myself, well, I blather away...."

MD,

That is perfectly kosher.

Myself, I am always seeking a notch-above my league, color immaterial. Lately, that bar has been sky rocketting - either I think am becoming a player or I am just losing my mind.

MD:

Wah...just one Indian on that list??? Where is the hope for us??? Its a very very sad day :)

Wah...just one Indian on that list??? Where is the hope for us??? Its a very very sad day :)

the one she married. so keep the hope alive, me thinks that the die is loaded :)

Don't worry OYBBB, I'm not a stunner like ANNA so, really, what are my opinions worth? :)

Okay, I finally got around to reading the first link (yes, I am procrastinating on some writing I am supposed to do as usual - the rate of SM commenting goes up when I have to write something or make a power point presentation). What feeble minded women! Bah. You men are better off without those feeble minded types.

Yes, yes, I understand the larger culture produces expectations in your little girlish hearts, and it feels daring and freeing to upset parental expectation, and yes, some of us grow up with domineering fathers and patriarchal families, but, still. You are not eighteen anymore! Get. Over. It.

I mean, look at the

Hit post too soon. Never mind. The rest of the comment was as feeble minded as the first link I read. Still, here it is:

Oh, boo hoo, society at large makes me like white men better than asian men. Whatever. Grow a little, ok?

Anyhoo, I think all men are potentially gorgeous. I am truly catholic in my tastes. The men who have made my heart go pitter-pat in the past have included the following (and by pitter-pat, I mean find attractive, not that I have dated all these men, or wished to date them. Just most attractive, is all): a slightly zaftig Iowan who played high school football and had the bluest eyes, a balding Italian who did bench research, smoked like chimney, and played semi-pro football back home in Italy (or so the sexy nerd says....), a Chinese-American medical resident who is six feet tall and has the roundest, widest face and shortest nose, a Syrian immigrant with a slender build and a slightly high pitched voice to go with the most beautiful eyes, and an Indian immigrant who looked like Sanjay Dutt (the ex). All this lovely variety......

Oooooh - we want to hear more, MD!

samurai snags southern belle.

My brain hiccuped, Razib, and I read "samurai sword" instead of just samurai. Ouch, that's gotta hurt.

His dad is a trumpet player named Tiger. How awesome is that?

Oooooh - we want to hear more, MD!

*cough, cough* guest blogger?

The appeal of MD's comment is that she summarily describes just about every kind of man :)

My brain hiccuped, Razib, and I read "samurai sword" instead of just samurai.

are you talking literally? or interracial porn like?

YIKES!!!! Razib, I'm sorry, no, I wish I had been that clever, but I wasn't. I really envisioned a katana catching on a frilly dress.

Now I'll probably have nightmares, thanks.

This relates, and puts a spin on the discussion re Asian gendered sterotypes: this is a bit of an (in)famous website I stumbled onto a year ago: Its a mock mail order bride website. Very clever.

Is Love Colorblind?

Origins of the Angry Asian American

...with the above as a starting place, it should be noted that intermarriage rates (the only real quantitative proxy, b/c interracial dating stats are hard to come by) vary widely from country to country, esp. for South Asians.

But I think it's probably true that a Big Five type battery followed by non-metric MDS would put South Asian immigrants nearer** to Europeans behaviorally than most other ethnic groups. This explains quite a lot of the observations.

And for the rest? The stuff people think but do not say? Take it away, Jared Diamond!!

**--this is a way of quantifying something that would otherwise be attacked as a baseless "stereotype"

For those who really want to cut to the chase:

Jared Diamond page 1, Jared Diamond page 2.

(PS: not an outlier: study 2, study 3)

And here I thought the reason why I wasn't getting any girls was because I didn't have any game.... wait no, thats still probably true

Ovaltine--- HAHAHAH, i would have to say that reason is probably the biggest.
I'm a south asian male, and i'm going to call out 80% of desi guys in the states for being complete retards. I'm sorry, if you are a complete dick who is self absorbed, you drive a mercedes, and you have nothing interesting to talk about except yourself, you're going to be lonely regardless if you were brown, white, black or orange. Perhaps delving into what makes south asian males inadequate to compete with their "white" counterparts for girls is what should be the focus. This isn't really an issue for girls, guy's for the most part want a hot girl, we usually don't discriminate.

My experience has been interesting, i grew up with white people and hitting on white girls. I was more surprised at the higher exceptance of indian girls liking me when i was finally exposed to a few in college. Now i'm just plain hooked, maybe they are easier since i'm brown or maybe they're just attracted to my white-washed antics.

Regardless, i've had just as many headaches with all colors of girl

'Perhaps delving into what makes south asian males inadequate to compete with their "white" counterparts for girls is what should be the focus.'

I don't think anyone was suggesting that South Asian males measure up 'inadequately' compared with white males. That only applies to East Asian males.

White-washed antics, Im going to have to figure out what that means and then try it

Lets take this conversation back to the motherland.
The question i have is how do Indians perceive folks from indian subcontinent who are who are "more asian" racialy(or visualy)
eg Manipuri, Nepalis, Sikkimese, etc

I dont know of any 'asian' looking subcontinentals who were super successful in indian media.
I've noticed the following people:-

• Gayatri Iyer
  She is a news anchor on cnbc india looks and she appears more 'asian' than other news anchors.

So, the power equation has changed against the Asian/South Asian male. I think the situation of the South Asian male is being portrayed a little too favorably here. It is true, a lot of second gen Indian guys turn out very well rounded, but the vast majority I have known are truly pathetic - they score nothing, zilch, nada. Moreover they suffer from a weird complex - getting a hot chick from say New Delhi is not an option. I do not understand, there are at least half a dozen first generation Asian chicks in my office who are married to white american guys. So, if White Americans have no problems in going for first gen Asian/Indian girls, why don't the second gen Asian/Indian guys go for them? It would make perfect sense given the demand/supply scenario.

Saheli, why the hostility towards Americans? Haha, you're kidding, right? You want me to list the reasons I dislike America?

But before you all jump on me, I can name as many reasons why I LIKE America. And of course I don't have a blanket rule against Americans, cos I come here and I like all you beautiful people! (except one of you)

The thing about 'East Indian' is very infuriating for me as it typifies the American desire to simplify things. Sulfur. Color. The dude who invented the phrase 'East Indian' clearly thought "whoa, we gots Injuns here, but youz tellin me there's a country called INDIA? With Injuns too? But they ain't wild Injuns like Crazy Horse? Where's this India? In the EAST you say? Well I know what we'll call them!"

He was probably very satisfied with himself that you now have Indians, East Indians and West Indians.

Why don't they call Paris 'French Paris' to differentiate between the place in Texas?

Come on MD, don't defend a thick term like that. What the hell does someone from Bombay/Bengal refer to themself as? A west East Indian? An East squared Indian? Bah!

Whoops. I got Saheli and MD muddled up. I'm standing up and typing - hence I can't concentrate very well. Forgive nah?

Bongo - LOL

except one of you

So whos this one person???
Btw, you know they have a place called Delhi in NY.

if White Americans have no problems in going for first gen Asian/Indian girls, why don't the second gen Asian/Indian guys go for them?

- The accent might put some desi guys off.
- Preconceptions/paranoia about 1st-Gen girls, their intentions, and their families.
- The fact that many (please note: by no means "all") 1st-Gen girls recently arrived in the West specifically aim to hook a guy here in order to gain citizenship. Yes I know some 1st-Gen guys do this too.
- Maybe in many cases it's the girls who aren't going for the desi guys, and prefer Caucasians for various reasons.

cocopuffs- thank you for the first 2 sentences! these are the same guys who go out to a club in packs of 15 and wonder why they won't get let in. (can anybody say "sausagefest"?)

Bongsy-

I like all you beautiful people! (except one of you)

now what did I do? ;)

Re: comment 64: I would add Sikkim's Bhaichung Butia to the list, he's India's most famous soccer player.

My own comment re: post 64: Danny Dengzongpa is a seriously underrated actor and he was excellent in Agneepath -- very charismatic dude.

DesiDancer,

now what did I do? ;)

How much time do you have ? ;)

Desiboy - i didn't mean measure up like dick size, if anything its the opposite
"pencil thin evian drinking carrot nibbling bunny" (brooklyn funk essentials - i got cash)

Ovaltine- white washed antics...well its basically WMA theory, white male american mindset, this equates to thinking primarily of yourself and acting like a blithering idiot. for good accoutns read something like www.tuckermax.com, that should give you some ideas

DesiDancer - i like the fact you can dance, and i'm glad it doesn't involve the pack of 15 gross guys. But do you really dance? can you hustle? if so, i would love to dance. But back to desis, as much as guys are horrible, so are the females, most of the desi girls i met can't dance, but they can do pelvic thrusts in counter clockwise motion while mounted on some guy at the club.

cocopuffs, I can bring it. I can dance, I can hustle, I can jitterbug, watoosi and tango. I can bolly-ballet-breakdance. Me and BongBreaker, we face off like "Rize" ;)

Cocopuffs,

I believe she does it professionally, so I'm assuming she can boogie quite well.

Coco Puffs - So acting like a blithering idiot is suppost to help me!?! I much as I think there is a logical disconnect in being an ass and picking up girls it seems to work .. I have no idea

Ovaltine,

That Prooves Girls are irrational.......This gives me some hope:)

DesiDancer - i'm guessing ur across the pond? you missed salsa ;) if your ever in boston gimme a shout! or not(i may secretly be one of those gross indns)

Ovaltine- come on bro, not a blithering idiot, but take a look at how this goes down typically. How many girls do you know settle for blithering idiots...they must be doing something right. All i'm saying is being a south asian guy, you gotta break out of the stereotyped "sausagefest" guys. AKA gain a fashion sense and don't just be a clone with the black armani shirt, banana republic pants, and the super short gelled hair. Forget all that, clothes mean shit as compared to your conversation. I don't know where this comment is going, but all the previous comments seem so sad.

That Prooves Girls are irrational.......This gives me some hope:)

Cocopuffs, I leave the Salsa to our resident expert, Mirchi Manish Vij. He had auditioned for "So You Think You Can Dance" but they actually turned him away because the show would have been over in one episode, when he shamed all the other contestants and was crowned ultimate dancing champion of the Western World. ;)

DesiDancer - LOL !

Cocopuffs,

Do you guys want somebody to write you a guide on how to get laid or something?

Yes.

Guide on getting laid

1. Stop spending so much time on this blog

Do you guys want somebody to write you a guide on how to get laid or something?

Cocopuffs, go for it man, write a book, I will Pumpin all my black money, if u want I cud get something thru Hawala.....Its high time there is a book for desi guys on how to get laid.

If you need it immediately.....I will steal the AmXpress card from my roomate and send it thru paypal.

I am very proud to give my hand for a good cause.

I am very proud to give my hand for a good cause.

methinks your target audience with such a book is already giving their hand...

methinks your target audience with such a book is already giving their hand...

and again 'chuckle' 'Chuckle'

DesiDancer - i like your style, well more like your sarcasm. Question: are all you SM junkies all old friends or from some giant patel family?

Manish Vij- exactly. I'm only on this blog when i'm at work, it makes the day go by faster, THANKS SEPIA MUTINY

O'Ya Bula Bula Bi & Logical Disconnect - You guys want a book for desi guys on how to get laid...hmm...i guess it could be a fun project... i do know of something to get you started, Neil Strauss has written a number of interesting articles in Esquire on this topic, not so much as getting laid as picking up women. One of the articles was "How i seduced Britney Spears" or something like that. Either way it says that the articles are excerpts from a book he just published "the game:penetrating the world of pick-up artists" I saw some of the reviews online, looks like it could fun read. Keep in mind i don't think its audience is desi males for hitting on desi girls.

Logical Disconnect - HOW MUCH BLACK MONEY DO YOU HAVE? If you fund me i will write you a story

CocoPuffs,

Due to the non disclosure agreement, I signed with the IRS, I am not supposed to reveal how much money I have in Black to anybody, except the IRS:)

IRS is a good friend of mine....so give me an estimate on the book.......then we will make a deal with the IRS and try to color all the black money into white.

And then I lived happily ever after........

logical disconnect - email me

don't just be a clone with the black armani shirt, banana republic pants, and the super short gelled hair.

HAHHHahh! omigod. yes. Cocopuffs you nailed it. The Structure Boys. (does anyone here remember that store, or am I showing my age by referring to it?) Convinced that they are as cool as it gets. blech.

Of course, you get the contingent of desi chix who're all cloned up in tight black pants and lycra haltertops from BeBe. Let's just step aside and let both groups get drunk and spawn, shall we?

My real-life male fashion idol is a desi friend who rocks 70s funk FOB attire. This translates to slightly too-short pants and too-large collars, but all cotton. I'm going to bust out homemade dresses in garish prints to keep up with him.

Guide on getting laid

1. Stop spending so much time on this blog

2. Self-confidence to not take yourself seriously is always attractive.

My real-life male fashion idol is a desi friend who rocks 70s funk FOB attire. This translates to slightly too-short pants and too-large collars

Your real-life friend is Jeetendra?

Of course, you get the contingent of desi chix who're all cloned up in tight black pants and lycra haltertops from BeBe. Let's just step aside and let both groups get drunk and spawn, shall we?

lol. lets.

Imagine their children...

Your real-life friend is Jeetendra?

ooh, good one ;) His mom DID name him after a Bollywood star - just not that one.

scary thing is, there really is a good book idea here. "The Desi Dude's Guide to Women" or some such. seriously. you'd just have to prove that there was enough of a market, but demographics and income statistics properly deployed will take care of that, especially if you keep production costs down (avoid glossy photos) and accept a small advance.

i'm sure that the mutineers have been thinking about books, in fact i'd bet they've been contacted by agents/editors, and maybe something like this is already in the works. but you could really make a splash with a "sepia mutiny presents" label for this book... and later, for others.

peace

i'm sure that the mutineers have been thinking about books, in fact i'd bet they've been contacted by agents/editors, and maybe something like this is already in the works.

Dude, use some common sense. Most of us are single. Do you really think we are fit to write such a book or that anyone would want advice from us? That's like asking a blind man what kind of TV you should buy.
:)

Dude, use some common sense. Most of us are single. Do you really think we are fit to write such a book or that anyone would want advice from us?

this is the US publishing industry we're talking about. plenty of books have been commercial successes despite total lack of qualification on the part of their authors.

plus you could make like neal strauss and make it the story of a desi dude trying to get laid, full of pathetic/comic adventures, each one of which imparts an important lesson.

don't tell me you haven't thought of it -- or something like it. because i won't believe you!

second, cocopuffs been making some big claims about his ability to pull. just let him write it, you guys add the SM brand, and share the profits.

again -- i'm dead serious about this.

peace

or let cicatrix write it. advice to the desi boys, from a girl who cares.

the internet is like a place where people say things they only notice on the street. like the amount of inter-racial asian couples where the girl is asian. lots of people notice it but not many say it out loud

i don't think desi's have too much to do with the debate, i can't think we're a big enough group to do much about anything either way

Do you really think we are fit to write such a book or that anyone would want advice from us?

sometimes it makes perfect sense for an 'outsider', or in this case 'someone who does NOT get laid', to write it...plus you'll know all the valuable 'NOT' and 'NEVER' dos...

dedicate a chapter or two to the FOBs and the brothers back home and you'll have a bestseller....will let em know that there are no chics waiting for them at the airport.

...a good book idea here. "The Desi Dude's Guide to Women" or some ...

thing like 'Men are from Edison, Women are from Plano'.

Cica, I was that close? Ouch.

second, cocopuffs been making some big claims about his ability to pull. just let him write it, you guys add the SM brand, and share the profits.

Abhi - what does being single have to do with picking up girls? Also does anyone know Neil Strauss...he wrote a book on it and his previous works are biographies on Montley crue and "how to make love like a porn star with jenna jameson"... i mean come on

cicatrix - yea sorry, structure shut down when i was in highschool, so i'm goin to venture and guess you are about
26 ;) As for those brownie clones, in the Bebe tops and tight pants, yea they all suck. Although its great fun to mess with their heads a bit, ex. borrowing their phone and then taking a super slutty picture of them and sending it to their mom while they're not paying attention...i feel like renton..."the truth is i am a bad person"

Hey, Neil Strauss' book on "the Crue" happens to be one of the best music bios ever written. Anyone who can make Nikki Sixx seem endearing is certainly qualified to write dating book, imo.

or let cicatrix write it. advice to the desi boys, from a girl who cares.

Cocopuffs, you are evil!!
we should hang out ;)

puffs:

"If you really think there is a market for this product we should talk. AFC Desis seem to be saying yes!"

of course i do! i've been saying so all along. give me a shout, you can do it thru my website. did i hear you say you're in boston? also, what's an AFC desi -- the only AFC i know is the home of the New England Patriots. (by that measure i'm definitely an AFC desi.)

cica,

Um, as long as y'all understand that my ideal desi boy would look like Vijay Raaz...and that I turn to Vice Magazine for my fashion dos and don'ts.

it's all good! you wanna do this? it can be a joint project of the two of you. all the better for sales. holler at me, you know how.

sm

sid - i will definitely be giving you a shout, i'm actually livin in providence, but i go up to boston a decent amount. AFC is a term dubbed for "average frustrated chump" within the neil strauss book. Boston would be a great place to document desi social behaviour as both desi male and female clones are abundant.

cicatrix - would you be interested in doing something like this? i would be down as its a nice change of pace from my job as a cube monkey doing long division for the man. gotta pay bills.

i may be evil, but you can't deny that it made you laugh... i have many more stories of hilarious debauchery

Cocopuffs,

i have many more stories of hilarious debauchery

Spill the daal, buddy. Unless you're saving all that for your book.....

The Neil Strauss 'speed seduction method' is pretty cheesy. Great if you want to meet bimbos. Sample: point at your crotch and mention the word 'hap-penis.'

Lovely.

Kikipoughs - you gotta take everything with a grain of salt, i mean come on, he also suggests performing magic tricks and peacocking,(wearing flamboyant clothes and fake jewelry)

Jai Singh - man oh man, i should prolly save them for the book in the off chance it actually happens. Most of them are from college. "Lying to someone you will never see again is a one of life's greatest guilty pleasures." that was my motto, me and one of my boyz would often hit the club with this in mind. Desi's are often quite gullible as they will think i'm not lying to them since i'm also desi. Why should they? i am a suitable boy.one story which sticks out to me was talking to a clinical psychologist and convincing her i was in my first year of residency at Hopkins Medical(pediatrics to be exact) (i looked like i was 12 then, and can maybe pass for 18 now, god knows how she actually bought it, she was a fox!) After making random talk about how disconcerting taking a baby's rectal termperature was and 7 martinis later, i find myself alone and somehow irresistable to this psychologist. long story short, i woke up in a fantastic apartment in DC in dupont circle, with a horrible hangover, completely disoriented, i leave her(noticing she's not as foxy as she looked the night before) saying i will call her i give her my friends number (i used his name also) and told her to call me anytime she needs a breast examination. My poor friend, he never did figure out who the woman was that kept calling saying she needed an examination.

you know, Cocopuffs, you should consider writing a screenplay with all of your pranks and antics and pitch it as a brown American-Pie style movie. But if you call it Masala Pie or American Laddoo or some other heinous east-west shit, I will come slap you ;)

Lying to average looking drunk women about how successful you are in order to sleep with them...Wow you must me the first guy in recorded history to do this.

Let me know when the first book signing is...Yawn.

for the record, i'm not down with any kind of american pie b.s. but if someone wants to work on a smart, desi "how to" guide in the chick-lit and associated traditions, silly but not juvenile, with appeal across the 18-35 demographic, i'll be happy to help write the proposal.

puffs, i agree that the kind of material you just offered is a little... ech.

M A N - you are soooooo right, although there are cave drawings dating back to 2000 BC implying that i might not be the first.

your wit does astound me, tell us a little bit about something that would interest you, maybe a guide for hitting on pre-op transvestites?

double-ech.

Great that you know how to be charming and think fast on your feet, not so hot that you're being just another cad.

by the way, I thought this:

Um, as long as y'all understand that my ideal desi boy would look like Vijay Raaz...and that I turn to Vice Magazine for my fashion dos and don'ts.

And in the wake of that "he's jsut not into you" book, I think the market for such books will be completely saturated.

I do however have a book idea in mind, for which this stuff..at least in the anecdotal sense.. would make a great chapter. Not going to get around to working on it until early next year, but email me.

Hilarious.

cocopuffs:So the only way for you to get with the ladies is to lie to them? Is this related to your visage?

Bong Breaker:I stand by my comment re: East Indians, she says impishly. So, through a historical accident Native Americans were called Indians, and so there needed to be a way to differentiate. It's an old term, and not used that much here in the US, but I'm sure you knew that, right? Anyway, why is colour so much better than color? Why the need to stick extra letters where they don't belong :) PS. Can you do anything about how terrible BBCAmerica is? I mean, how many times can I watch Home Invaders or Changing Rooms? Gah.....

The rest of you:Sometimes the threads are so snappy and jazzy it just brings pure joy to my heart.

Oh, and ennis: maybe I'll elaborate later....

maybe a guide for hitting on pre-op transvestites

interesting, i guess that anecdote was more of a tucker max type story, which is bound to have many critics.

Childhood is temporary; Immaturity is forever.

Cicatrix - come on? just another cad? I thought we cleared the fact that i'm EVIL. I guess there is a double standard, i can crack jokes all over stupid teenybopper in tight pants, but if i crack a joke on a professional woman i'm a cad.

oh well

MD - i guess one stupid story would be enough for educated person to make that assumption. Perhaps you didn't catch the part where i say it was from college. Then again if you are like most desis you were prolly studying while everyone else was getting trashed and being stupid. BTW, What was his name?

Here's one from Tuesday nite. A much taller gorgeous woman keeps smiling at me while dancing with her lady friend. She finally comes closer and falls on me. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose! As I help her to her feet, she apologizes and I say, 'That's okay I pick up women all the time'.
Just the right mixture of being cad-istic and charming/funny.
Some convo later and after she found out my ethnicity I was getting too many questions about desi life. No Me interesa...I have no interest in being the Companion Guide to Monsoon Wedding. NEXT!

cocopuffs - last time I checked college students were adults, but ok, I get the point, you were young and immature, as were, ahem, many of us (but seriously, dude, didn't you feel at all guilty or bad at the time? I would feel horrible lying to a guy).

*By the way, speaking of immature, I was asked by my parents to leave my first college for having too much fun, they didn't want to pay for it if I was going to throw it all away.

Ahh, the things you learn about MD here on the SM comments thread....