October 11, 2005
Breaking the Girl: IIPM's Virtual Thugs Bully Rashmi BansalMusings
This post is about IIPM’s deplorable, misogynistic, retaliatory attacks on Rashmi Bansal, a female blogger who runs a magazine (JAM) which gave IIPM, a B-school in India, a less than stellar review. If you’d like, you can skip the Red Hot Chili Peppers lyrics and vignette below them; Rashmi’s story commences right before the jump.
:+:
Twisting and turning
Your feelings are burning
You’re breaking the girl
She meant you no harm
Think you’re so clever
But now you must sever
You’re breaking the girl…{rhcp}
:+:
After I finished my last degree, my next step—like every other desi who didn’t feel like going to medical school or being an engineer— was law school…or so I thought. I took Kaplan, took the LSAT and took obscene amounts of time filling out applications and writing essays, like everyone else who applied to be a 1L during the 2001-2002 school year.
My heart wasn’t in it.
I refused to go unless I was accepted at a school I loved because frankly, Mr. Shankly, I didn’t need to be a lawyer (and $100k in debt) that badly.
Out of the blue, I got a scholarship to a school I had no interest in…my Mom forced me to keep an open mind and at least visit it with her when she came east for my graduation.
“Fine, Mummy. For you, I will”, I said.
The materials made the campus sound fantastic; the truth was, ‘twas a hole. I didn’t really hold it against them though— we all bullshit a little bit to make reality seem more fabulous. I’ll accept that proclivity— within limits.
Exactly a year later, when I was tending to my interns, I told them all about my experience with the law school suitor I had rejected. I felt like it was the right thing to do; almost half of them were in the process of applying themselves and a guest speaker who had graciously enriched their time with a speech was an Alum of the school I had found so hole-y. As I tried not to wince, he talked it up ridiculously. If I had had the time to blog during the summer of 2002, when I was working 70+ hour weeks, I would’ve told the world my story, in an honest, unflinching way. Aside from potentially getting flamed via comment, I wouldn’t have had anything to worry about, after posting my opinion.
Lucky me.
:+:
Rashmi Bansal, the blogger behind “Youth Curry” runs Just Another Magazine or JAM. JAM did brown youngsters in the Amma-land a favor by discussing B-schools, a topic which must be quite popular judging by my daily updates from Rediff.com, which inevitably include an article on the subject.
Here’s what JAM had to say about IIPM, a somewhat controversial school that reminds me of that sleazy guy at the bar who talks a good game— i.e. they’re full of shit. The bar-scum doesn’t have a porsche and IIPM isn’t a 10 ten school which is better than IIM, in fact IIPM has been removed from B-school rankings for misrepresenting itself. Though I’m a St. Thomas Christian, I don’t have to go to a sleazy garage to place my hands in the hole where the ultimate daily driver should be nor do I have to visit one of the “plush” IIPMs to tell you that they lied, too. Some things, you just know are true.
Check out the totally appropriate investigating JAM did regarding IIPM’s claims:
The 8 Wi-Fi IIPM Towers in India which are modern architectural wonders equipped with air-conditioned classrooms, auditoriums huge state-of-the-art computer dromes and well stocked libraries. The IIPM campus gives students a completely international feel with its beautifully landscaped surroundings, an unique blend of old English architecture with modern exteriors and has facilities like swimming pool, mini golf, billiards, etc.
We visited IIPMs Mumbai campus in Bandra, posing as prospective students. The campus is a four-storied building, with some parking area around it. There is a small canteen section that can seat, at the most, around 10 students. We entered the air conditioned reception area that was bustling with activity in the limited space available. But youre left wondering - where in this one tiny building can they be hiding that swimming pool they promised in the ads? We also checked out the campus in Delhis Qutab Institutional Area. There too we couldnt find a swimming pool, mini golf course or billiards table. Again, there wasnt any old English architecture. The building tower resembled any other office complex in Delhi. There was no Wi-Fi on campus, or in the library. The librarian didnt even know what Wi-Fi was!
However, there is ONE campus for second year students in Delhis Chhatarpur area which has a swimming pool.
There’s more where that came from, but I doubt that any of our readers give two shits about the “free laptops” and Ivy-pedigreed Professors IIPM brags about shamelessly. I included that excerpt to make a point; if Sepia Mutiny had written it, we would’ve brought the pain. JAM was restrained and professional, which is why the next hairpin turn in this tale outrages me further.
IIPM, like the slimy asshole at the bar who couldn’t get a date with us, is bitter that we told our friends about their M.O. How does THAT guy get back at a girl like us? Why he probably spins the truth his way and tells anyone who’s clueless enough to listen a story. It goes a little something like this. “That bitch…was such a slut. She wanted me soooo badly, so I hooked up with her and then told her to Fuck off.”
Because that’s what you do when you want to eviscerate a woman who pissed you off, right? She’s a bitch, but wait, what insinuation is worse than THAT? Of course. She’s a whore. A walking cum-dumpster who is so controlled by her genitals, she needs to be fucked and she’ll take it any way she can. That’s how you tear down a woman, especially in our community where flawlessly pure Sita is Queen, where good girls are virgins until they are impregnated on their wedding nights and the only one who touches their shame-shame is the husband who legitimizes sexuality (but only in the context of procreation).
Bitch. Slut. Whore. That’s how you humiliate and denigrate a woman.
Here’s how they tried to do that to Rashmi:
At 1:58 PM, OracleCoder said…
Grow up Rashmi,
Let’s be clear about one thing. What you’ve written in your blog is total crap. Please don’t hurt the sensibilities of intellectual readers with your loadful of shit. Remember me, I’m Subby, your batchmate at IIM Ahmedabad. Does Junta know you got kicked out in the second year because you were caught with your pants down in the women’s loo (with another woman for god’s sake). Grow up Rashmi. Hope you are married to a man, and have learnt to pull your pants up. Stop claiming you are from IIM A. It’s a pity no one’s brought that issue up…
At 2:10 PM, RaghuveerSrinivas said…
Hey I don’t agree with that. My bro is from IIM A. He says she got kicked out because she fudged her graduation degree certificate. Rashmi, can u please post your degree on the net? Also please post the photo of your husband (or wife) so that we can be sure it’s a man (alongwith the sex certificate from JJ Hospital). Man, this is good. Rashmi, I’m open to any sex. If you are interested, let’s hit it big. I can do some good stuff on you, whatever you are… By the way, at least you’ve realized how pitiable a character you are; I should say your pretensions of being a blogger are finally being destroyed. Your shit stuff on IIPM and related things is so a-s-s-h-o-l-i-s-h (if you understand the word b-i-t-c-h) because almost all the points you’ve written are totally false. At least write some believable stuff. At least you lizard. By the way, I’ve heard that in your own jammag, you screw around with the fresh joinees (there are no experienced people in jammag because they leave after tasting you, I’ve heard). It would be nice if you can kindly post denials from all your employees that you don’t screw around with them. For the sake of information of readers, Guys, just go to jammag’s website and check out how this w-h-o-r-e recruits part time employees left and right. Wow!
I almost forgot— if you really want to go for the jugular, then use the alternative “Nympho” story— the one where she/the bitch/the slut craves carpet. Those damned lesbians…always in the bathroom getting it on when they should be writing nice, agreeable stories which don’t bother anyone.
:+:
I’m not even telling you half of this story, because another blogger’s life has been complicated by this clusterfuck, too. The brown blogosphere has already howled in outrage, I’d expect no less about an issue so worrisome. To summarize what happened and why it’s appalling enough that Instapundit picked up on it: a principled blogger named Gaurav Sabnis is out of a job. How did poor Gaurav get involved when it was Rashmi they were burning at the virtual stake?
The always outstanding India Uncut tells you better than I could, picking up where I left off, after JAM posted their article questioning IIPM’s claims:
After that happened, some of the IIPM staff barged into the Jam office. In Rashmis words, they did not offer any new or material facts, other than argument. Then she got a legal notice from them. All fair so far. They have a right to go to court, and they need not have worried if the facts were on their side. But were they? See what happened next.
A number of blogs sprung up overnight defending IIPM and defaming Rashmi and Gaurav Sabnis, a popular Indian blogger who had linked to Rashmi’s article and added some facts of his own. Ludicrous rumours were spread about Aaj Tak, the news channel, having done a sting operation and having caught Amity, a rival of IIPM, giving money to Rashmi to do the story. Rashmi posted on the matter, and filthy comments were left on that post you can read them for yourself and see the class of the people who left them. Also, Gaurav received a hilarious legal notice, which he reproduced on his blog it was hilarious at the time, that is.
Then it got serious. IIPM happens to be a client of IBM, Gaurav’s employer, having purchased a huge bunch of laptops from them. (In fact, they are a company with serious money clout, and are one of the biggest advertisers in India.) So what would you expect them to do?
What would you expect the blogger caught in the middle of all this to do? Gaurav made the most astonishing and difficult choice— he left IBM. A blogger resigned. No, he wasn’t dooced, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some version of “Gaurav” is entered in the urban dictionary soon.
To Gaurav: (verb) to leave a job because of blog posts which you do not and should not regret.
This is insanity, people. We’re carving out how this wonderful method of communication exists, each day whether we acknowledge our roles as sculptors or not. I do not want a blogosphere where misogynist assholes threaten people they disagree with and resort to professional blackmail to achieve their ends. I am livid that I even need to write this post.
You do not tear down a woman by reducing her to a fuck-craving deviant and you do not punish a man for using his voice to disagree with you. You will not silence either of them; you will not hush the blogoshpere and you most definitely won’t shut me up, either. Rashimi and Gaurav aren’t afraid of desperate, craven assholes who foam at the comment box and neither am I. Shame on you, IIPM and shame on anyone who isn’t aghast at what this woman and man have been put through. Any of us could be next.
anna on October 11, 2005 03:09 AM in Blog, Issues, Musings, News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
¤ Mihir's Journal said: Indian Blogosphere heating up!
¤ DesiPundit said: IIPM Blog Wars Redux
Last updated: Oct.11, 2005 08:40am CST This time it is personal. Rashmi Bansal, JAM editor and a popular blogger has been attacked by so-called IIPM graduates (see comments). [hat tip: Charu] We at DesiPundit condemn IIPM and their chamcha bl...
whew...
anna... way to bitchslap those arrogant bastards...
nicely done, nicely done..
Surely both Rashmi and Gaurav being from IIM has done its bit to raise ponytail and co's hackles. Next thing we know, they're gonna make it look like "big bad IIM bullies are trying to malign the underdog"
This is one of the most scumbag things I have read in a long time. What scumbags.
Whew - now THAT was an intense way to begin my Tuesday. Thanks, Anna, for calling attention to this bizarre story.
Hi Anna
Excellent post. I'm really glad that Sepia Mutiny, the biggest of the "desi-blogs" brought attention to these shameful acts of blogger intimidation by the IIPM sleazeballs.
The most important asset for any educational institution is its reputation. What does it say about the IIPM that they would create bogus blogs and leave absolutely vile libelous comments on blog that that post negative things about IIPM?
This incident has really touched a nerve in the blogosphere. Right now, IIPM ranks first on the most popular subjects at technorati. There are at nearly 300 blog posts on this subject.
It would be interesting to hear from some real IIPM students (not the bogus ones that leave vile comments) and see what they have to say about the real IIPM.
whoa!
i can see why gaurav caved in. law and order in india is not very up to date on technology. a few months back, when i was in india, there was a minor scandal about a college kid posting somebody's private sex tape for sale online at baazee.com. Here's how the police reacted.
Avnish Bajaj, an American citizen of Indian origin who heads Baazee, a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay, was arrested on charges of sale and distribution of pornography. An engineering student had posted a listing on the portal to sell an e-mail with a video attachment of a sexual act involving a schoolgirl. Bajaj began to help the Delhi police, and even assisted in nabbing the boy who had posted the listing. On Dec. 17, Bajaj himself was arrested.
For a somewhat entertaining read ("it's so funny i could drive a nail in my head"), read this.
I think Gaurav gave up an opportunity by resigning voluntarily. At least out here, he should have been able to nail their ass through a counter-suit charging intimidation.
I would be interested in what the legal beagles would recommend to counter-attack IIPM.
Extremely outrageous !! Anyway, I'm not worried for Gaurav - he's done the right thing, and being extremely smart and well-qualified he'll surely get a kick-ass job. However, all of this begs the question, what the f*** were the guys at IBM thinking when they let him go ? Looks like IBM needs to grow some balls and stand by its employees. More power to both Rashmi and Gaurav.
Thanks, Anna for joining in. Appreciate Sepia Mutiny hopping on the bandwagon :)
After the many incidences of bloggers being fired for their posts, what really differentiates this one was Gaurav's unwillingness to drag IBM into this affair, especially when it was Lenovo to whom IIPM went and made its threats.
As an aside, I hope this sends out a message about indian employee integrity.
Knowing Gaurav since college days (although not very well) his actions here deeply impressed me, but werent all that surprising.
Gaurav Sabnis deserve enormous respect for his integrity and his courage. Not many would walk away from a nice paying job. And few of us would put such a high price on freedom of speech.
If IBM India let him get away - shame on them. They should have stood up for their employees in the face of outrageous threats from a disreputable institution.
With tons of money and gutter class behaviour, what kind of education would IIPM be providing? I don't know what happened in all actuality and I'm simply watching it from the sidelines. But the attacks on the JAM editor are way below the belt for anyone left with any shred of humanity to not get up and fend off the jackals. And those bloggers who are backing the so called "sting operation" of Aaj Tak haven't named a confirmed source yet, instead they are point to it as hearsay or another blogger and that blogger points it to another and another and it's moving in circles.
about time SM came out guns firing away.
Thanks Anna. Great job !
Anna,
Thanks for writing that post. I only knew the basic details before reading today's post but now I am as PISSED OFF as you.
It's egregious in itself that the IIPM posse would lash out so bitterly when their dirty little secrets were exposed, but to specifically use Rashmi's gender AGAINST her? What the fuck. That is so disgusting. I am livid. I'm glad you can voice your anger so eloquently.
Another great find of a story - thank you. But isn't Anna's writing a little... coarse? It's a rare moment of prudishness on my part, but I was honestly a little put off by the number and intensity of swear words in this post.
Please don't hate me, I like SM. :-)
Hmph.. I plan to forward the piece to as many people as I can; Let's see if those chutiyeh come tattling to my employer
Ok now folks remember this next time any Indian tries to rant off on how free India is when compared to China. In response to recent econometric comparisions to indian and china a desi replied by saying that at least in india we dont have to blog thru a third party in another country.
Well so much for that counter point.
IIPM is a fraud. It's a pity so many people get duped by them every year.
First, Anna, great post! I wonder whether these IIM alumni consider what it says about their institution that they cannot evluate an argument and formulate an ON-TOPIC response to it backed by facts.
Second, I am a grateful beneficiary of JAM magazine's internship program that was the first of its kind in Bombay to place bored high school grads in cool jobs (mine at a TV reporting company). I spoke to Rashmi Bansal a few times during the interview process, and if there's ANYTHING about IIM that she flaunts, its the fact that she dropped out of it.
Ok now folks remember this next time any Indian tries to rant off on how free India is when compared to China. In response to recent econometric comparisions to indian and china a desi replied by saying that at least in india we dont have to blog thru a third party in another country. Well so much for that counter point.huh... the only way you can substantiate this is because this guy gaurav chickened out and you're assuming he did it becaues he was pressured. if the line of sight manager at ibm twisted his nuts, it could only be because the guy was blogging on company time or a company allocated laptop - his ass should rightfully be toast . otherwise, the manager does not have any authority to exercise control over an ibm'ers off-work activities... if the guy was in the clear, he got melodramatic and chickened out ... anyway man, your statement has no beef. this is freedom of speech all the way... from the 125 crore law suit, to the IIPM stuff, to the foaming at the mouth blogging at the jam-site - it's like delhi traffic - everyone going every freaking way - but go it does, in generally the right direction. to go back to my earlier post - my outrage is really over the flaccid legal system that fails to protect or regulate.
I keep thinking that they must be really stupid to blow this issue out of proportion like they have; but on the other hand running a tacky degree mill scam in India with pimpin' ads is brilliant.
A beneficiary of JAM magazine said:
I wonder whether these IIM alumni consider what it says about their institution ...
Err, I think that should be IIPM , not IIM
I spoke to Rashmi Bansal a few times during the interview process, and if there's ANYTHING about IIM that she flaunts, its the fact that she dropped out of it.
Not that this has anything to do with the issue at hand, but I seriously doubt whether she dropped out. Any cite /url that substantiates your claim ?
A beneficiary of JAM magazine said:
"I spoke to Rashmi Bansal a few times during the interview process, and if there's ANYTHING about IIM that she flaunts, its the fact that she dropped out of it.
But then there's this:
http://www.businessworldindia.com/mar2204/invogue02.asp
"As one of the few who graduated from IIM-A and opted out of the placement process to pursue a dream, I can't say the path I chose is easy. Or that my dilemma is permanently solved. Yes, I set up a successful youth magazine - JAM - yet eight years down the road I feel restless and feel the need to find purpose once again.
And I acknowledge that I got the courage to follow my dream from the IIM-A education. It instilled in me the confidence to believe in myself, to think big. Courses like LEM (Leadership and Entrepreneurial Motivation) and ERI (Exploring Roles and Identity) made me realise there was an alternative reality I could create for myself. And I did."
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Is there a difference between "IIM" and "IIM-A"? If so, could somebody please explain it?
Oops, just re-read Beneficiary's post again. Is there a mixup between IIM and IIPM happening?
Is there a difference between "IIM" and "IIM-A"? If so, could somebody please explain it?
IIM-A (Ahmedabad) is one of the IIMs.
IIM = The Indian Institutes of Management, a club of India's 6 most elite, and arguably the world's most selective b-schools.
IIM-A is the IIM located at Ahmedabad, which happens to be the best b-school amongst the six. Rashmi's an IIM-A grad and Gaurav's an IIM-Lucknow grad.
Thanks, brownguy. I'd never really known about IIMs (or IIPM, for that matter) before today. Knowing that Rashmi earned her credentials from the best of the best makes me even more angry about the abuse being hurled her way.
Another great find of a story - thank you. But isn't Anna's writing a little... coarse? It's a rare moment of prudishness on my part, but I was honestly a little put off by the number and intensity of swear words in this post.
Really? I thought Anna's language was pretty tame compared to Rishma's harassers:
Rashmi, Im open to any sex. If you are interested, lets hit it big. I can do some good stuff on you, whatever you are
And:
Guys, just go to jammags website and check out how this w-h-o-r-e recruits part time employees left and right.
And:
Does Junta know you got kicked out in the second year because you were caught with your pants down in the womens loo (with another woman for gods sake). Grow up Rashmi. Hope you are married to a man, and have learnt to pull your pants up.
Sometimes, you have to decide what you're going to be offended by. Anna's words may very well be passionate, but they are not hurtful and slanderous like these despicable mofo's. Swear words vs. sexist, slanderous character assassination? It's no contest to me, and that's why I didn't even think twice about Anna's language... the former comments against Rishma were still ringing in my head that I didn't even notice the number of swear words Anna wrote. Furthermore think about the intent of both sets of writers...
Maybe you just don't understand such disgusting sexism and scathing harassment b/c you are probably not .
Correction... Rashmi, not Rishma.
Well, Project 37, the issue has little to do with her stellar academic record, and all to do with intimidation and abuse of power by IIPM. The MSM still refuses to breathe a word about the whole issue. Guess they don't want to hurt themselves by ticking off the high ad-spend IIPM. Money speaks, while the truth is hushed up. As an aside, it would be interesting to note if IIPM manages to hound Gaurav's next employer (should they find out).
Maybe you just don't understand such disgusting sexism and scathing harassment b/c you are probably not
....FEMALE.
Great post, Anna. Sickening subject.
"Project 37: Is there a mixup between IIM and IIPM happening?"
No, I was responding to the quote from Anna about one of the comments thrown Bansal's way.
""Im Subby, your batchmate at IIM Ahmedabad. Does Junta know you got kicked out in the second year ...""
"brownguy: Not that this has anything to do with the issue at hand, but I seriously doubt whether she dropped out. Any cite /url that substantiates your claim ?"
I was reporting our conversation, in which she matter-of-factly mentioned that she dropped out of IIMA. I interpreted that to mean that she was thumbing her nose at the institute, IF ANYTHING, and was therefore unlikely to flaunt her association with them as if she were proud of it or was entitled to something, as alleged by the commenter.
The BusinessWorld article substantiates my claim because she mentions her studentship at IIMA only to discuss specific courses and the quality of its education, and their role in her career development, and not to claim that she or other IIMA students are entitled to one thing or other. Its an introspective piece that provides her analysis of IIMA graduates' career choices, and therefore cannot be independent of her experience there, dropout or not.
"The excellent intellectual stimulation that occurs in between is a happy bonus.
And I acknowledge that I got the courage to follow my dream from the IIM-A education. It instilled in me the confidence to believe in myself, to think big. Courses like LEM (Leadership and Entrepreneurial Motivation) and ERI (Exploring Roles and Identity) made me realise there was an alternative reality I could create for myself. And I did."
Finally, I did not ask to see her "dropout" certificate. She was interviewing me, you see. Whether "dropout" meant she opted out of placement, or was asked to leave, or anything in between, I don't know. I COULD mine the internet for articles etc., but I think we both agree it does not have much to do with the issue at hand.
"Not that this has anything to do with the issue at hand, but I seriously doubt whether she dropped out."
Well..though not the main issue- just to clear up-its evident that Rashmi did not drop out of the course, rather she opted out of the placement process. Basically the institute asks the students whether they want to appear for the placements thru the institute or not. Rashmi decided not to and started her magazine. Usually students who wish to join family business or start something on their own, opt out of the placement process.
And regarding the main issue- its sad that IBM has accepted Gaurav's resignation. His integrity is commendable and would be a huge loss to the organization. I am sure this issue will bring the huge IIM community together and hopefully prevent such armtwisting tactics employed by IIPM.
Not sure if you noted, but yet another blogger has been threatened with a lawsuit by IIPM. Details of the email are exactly the same as that served to Gaurav.
Manish already mentioned it, but I'll update this post shortly.
Maybe you just don't understand such disgusting sexism and scathing harassment b/c you are probably not....FEMALE.
Ang, you're right, I'm not female, and I don't think there's any way I (or any male) could understand what it would be like to be on the receiving end of what Rashmi experienced.
I've witnessed sexism against women, and believe it or not, I was semi-harassed once by a female co-worker -- but that's another story. That doesn't give me any basis, however, for coming even close to understanding what Rashmi, as I'm sure many women, have to experience at the hands of men with prehistoric mentalities.
That being said, I don't want to be misunderstood for what I wrote earlier -- I meant it simply as a comment on the content and intensity of Anna's language. I take language very seriously -- of course we all do to some extent if we're spending our precious time blogging -- and I have certain opinions about the use of language. One of which is, debate and discussion on issues like the ones raised here doesn't have to use the same language as the people whose views or actions we find offensive or egregious.
I'm not trying to be holier than thou with this. Just a basic point that I prefer to read passionately *clean* language instead of posts with vulgarities strewn throughout. When we justify and/or compare the language we use by saying it's better than what those idiot males were using in their posts to Reshmi, I think we're in trouble.
Boy, do I sound like a prude. Sorry, this post ended being a lot longer than I meant for it to be.
When we justify and/or compare the language we use by saying it's better than what those idiot males were using in their posts to Reshmi, I think we're in trouble.
I disagree. We are not in trouble in comparing the two. It's called good judgement. Anna's not harassing or intending to hurt anyone with her words. I compared the 2 to make a point. Anna's words are very different from the douche bags who are harassing and intending to hurt Rashmi. Therefore, I see more malice in their words. Simple and justifiable.
Not necessarily directed at you, timepass, as I don't usually find you prude, but people, why not just come clean and say you overlooked a good point? I am not too proud to do so when I feel I am wrong.
well, good thing me and my pottymouth were part of the "obscenities in blogging" group at BlogHer...
i take language very seriously, timepass. i'm the first person to shake my head if someone is using an expletive because they're being lazy. but that's not what i was doing when i wrote this. i did not edit it. i did not write a first draft as the tips came pouring in...i just sat down and poured out my heart, or in this case, my rage.
this was how i felt and i'm not going to apologize for that or how i chose to express it. yes, bloggers should pay attention to the power of words. i just don't impose the same limits on them that you do.
Anna,
THIS is why I couldn't come out to play while I was in DC this past weekend :)
then it's a good thing i was in new york this past weekend. :D
huh... the only way you can substantiate this is because this guy gaurav chickened out and you're assuming he did it becaues he was pressured. if the line of sight manager at ibm twisted his nuts, it could only be because the guy was blogging on company time or a company allocated laptop - his ass should rightfully be toast . otherwise, the manager does not have any authority to exercise control over an ibm'ers off-work activities... if the guy was in the clear, he got melodramatic and chickened out ... anyway man, your statement has no beef. this is freedom of speech all the way... from the 125 crore law suit, to the IIPM stuff, to the foaming at the mouth blogging at the jam-site - it's like delhi traffic - everyone going every freaking way - but go it does, in generally the right direction. to go back to my earlier post - my outrage is really over the flaccid legal system that fails to protect or regulate.
Sure its freedom of speech all the way ;-)
If any one posting his views on a website can be harrased by a legal team in a country where it takes years the net effect is still the same ie stifling of freedom of speech.
Gaurav was blogging using his real identity and from india so they were able to track him and serve up the notice. Now if the dude asks his friend to let him log in on his terminal server in US/Europe and not mention his real name he can blog away and it will be difficult for people to harrass him.
This is what the chinese bloggers are doing. And if any one in india wants to blog on any serious matter this will be the only option to avoid libel suits.
Sure its freedom of speech only if you have a team of lawyers.
India's legal code is one of the worlds longest and execution is the slowest.
Anna, this post came from your heart!! Great post.. Thats why I love this blog.
Guru Gulab Khatri wrote
Sure its freedom of speech only if you have a team of lawyers.
India's legal code is one of the worlds longest and execution is the slowest.
yea i know guru, it sucks. just read a particularly depressing story on the indian legal system - law can be bought.
that being said, unless the iipm resorts to violence or it can make a real case in a court of law (so far, i havent seen any law being bent, let alone broken) - these bloges are free to do as they please.
Anna, I understand what you are saying -- your post was direct and the rage was palpable. I have no desire to impose limits on anyone's speech. But reading words like "cum-dumpster" and "fuck-craving", to me, ruin an otherwise gripping post that raises serious issues.
It's kind of like this: you're eating a chicken sandwich, it tastes great, and then you bite into a big hunking piece of chicken bone. Ouch.
Maybe that's a poor analogy. But I guess the bigger issue that this raises, in my mind, is of standards/norms for posts on SMs and community-oriented and community-driven blogs like SM. I'm a blogging newbie so maybe I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. However, in my experience with message boards and other online communities there are strict guidelines on appropriate and acceptable language -- you cross the line and your post get deleted, or you get banned.
Seems pretty black and white -- if you're a poster. However, moderators (such as Anna and all the Mutineers) should also abide by the same standards that they are enforcing, I would think.
Maybe it's time to 'dead' this one. :-)
Anna.. What can I say except Agree Agree Agree.
Timepass: Thanks for raising these issues of tone in a constructive and civil fashion.
I can assure you that ANNA has quite a large vocabulary, and that if she chooses to use obscenity it's deliberate and meant for a reason other than a simple desire to shock or express rage.
I'm going to guess here, but I think ANNA is trying to demonstrate, via language, the impact and verbal assault that a woman feels when she is accused of being a slut. Such accusations are not phrased in a polite fashion, they are designed to be jarring assaults on a woman's dignity. However, when reported they are often reduced to bloodless descriptions lest readers not get offended. The net result is that readers don't get a sense of how offensive and shocking the assault is, and therefore downplay it.
Timepass,
I was also put off by the anger on this topic. Especially....
>>Thats how you tear down a woman, especially in our community where flawlessly pure Sita is Queen, where good girls are virgins until they are impregnated on their wedding nights and the only one who touches their shame-shame is the husband who legitimizes sexuality (but only in the context of procreation).
Competely irrelevant, false drivel. Manish also did the same thing by trashing "Saffronites" in his post.
Do people know what kinds of filthy things are said on liberal blogs about conservative female columnists like AnnCoulter/RebeccaHagelin? It is no different from the sexually explicit attacks on Rashmi Bansal. And no - they don't have a concept of Sita, virginity-until-marriage etc. Yet, they behave exactly the same way against a woman who speaks out against the Establishment.
Dude/Dudette - you have a strong, valid point against IIPM. There is no need for you to gain legitimacy, by trashing Hindu culture/Saffronites, in order to be taken seriously. SM really needs to think what direction it wants to go. It has a great thing going for it - by making immature mistakes it will lose respect.
M. Nam
PS: Sex-only-for-procreation is an Abrahamic concept that was brought on our shores by the Victorians.
Nicely said, Ennis.
I'm normally an advocate of exercising verbal restraint on blogs & discussion forums, but what those people said to Rashmi was pretty vicious. I can understand why Anna would react so forcefully. Hell, I'm a guy and it even started to raise my blood-pressure when I saw how far into the gutter those people were prepared to go in their insults to the woman.
The behaviour is disgusting, barbaric even. It's yet more evidence of the grossly misogynistic attitude many South Asian men have towards women, especially those from the same background as themselves.
Jai writes:It's yet more evidence of the grossly misogynistic attitude many South Asian men have towards women
Why the self-flagellation? Have you been to Chinese/Brazilian/Norwegian blogs to see what kind of filth is written about women on those blogs?
There's nothing "South Asian" about this behaviour. Behind the anonymity of a handle, many men vent their frustrations on other men and women on the internet. When it comes to men, they use "loser", "small-dick", "impotent", "faggot" and when it comes to women they write all that other stuff.
M. Nam
Ennis, your take on the tone issue is interesting but I'm not too convinced -- Anna's post was intense but ventured into ranting territory.
I'm not questioning the validity of feeling outraged/indignant/pissed off as we all did after reading about this IIPM mess. I'm saying, I'd expect to see our friendly SM moderators, and hopefully SM participants as well, maintain some decorum and keep the language here clean wherever possible.
I don't think it's an issue of imposing *my* linguistic standards on everyone here; rather, it's about collectively defining what standards we can all live with, and maintaining them *even* when we are rightfully pissed off by IIPM like incidents.
I think pretty much captures what I've been trying to say all along.
MoorNam,
It's only "self"-flagellation if one is guilty of such behaviour oneself. To the best of my knowledge and ability, I am not. However, would you deny that an endemic misogyny does exist within South Asian culture, more so than in many other parts of the world ? (And yes I do know that women are treated even worse in certain other regions).
Just because certain negative behaviours and attitudes may be prevalent in other parts of the world, it doesn't negate the nastiness of such a mentality amongst many quarters of one's own cultural background. Let's not try to detract from this by pointing out "it happens elsewhere too". In South Asian culture it's part-and-parcel of the package of fake-macho behaviour, along with so-called "eve teasing", throwing acid on the faces of attractive women in certain situations, and blaming the victim if she gets raped. And so on.
However, I do agree with you completely that in many cases it's just a case of ego-driven, neurotic behaviour on the part of frustrated or insecure males, irrespective of their cultural/ethnic/religious background.
Jai,
Let's not try to detract from this by pointing out "it happens elsewhere too".
When did I try to detract from the event? Did I say: "Come on. These things happen. Chalta hai. Everyone does it."
All I said was: Don't attach any label Desi/SouthAsian/Sita/Virgin-culture etc etc to this behaviour, since it is not unique to this culture alone.
M. Nam
Rashmi, you're uber-cool.
If you are a lesbian, you're even cooler :)
So just hang in there and those IIPM dumbasses will get what they deserve.
MoorNam,
You're right, all this isn't unique to this culture alone; however, there are often some South-Asian-specific dynamics involved behind exactly why such behaviour occurs. These dynamics aren't necessarily present in many other cultures, or are less prevalent there.
But I guess the bigger issue that this raises, in my mind, is of standards/norms for posts on SMs and community-oriented and community-driven blogs like SM. I'm a blogging newbie so maybe I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. However, in my experience with message boards and other online communities there are strict guidelines on appropriate and acceptable language -- you cross the line and your post get deleted, or you get banned.
And you've been on SM long enough to understand that we have our own unique, sometimes blue voice and our own standards for "crossing the line". We delete and ban for hate, not shock. I really don't like where this is going (especially since we're two weeks late for "Banned Books Week").
I'm sorry you're so obviously uncomfortable with my awful pottymouth-- "obvious" b/c you haven't dropped this issue, though you're the only one who was so bothered by my methods of expressing myself. In fact, others have written in to explain why the post reads the way it does. Ennis was dead-on; if I wrote this in a way YOU would've approved of, people would've skimmed right through it. That is exactly what I didn't want.
I've been blogging for almost three years and I've been on the receiving end of similar filth. it. feels. horrible. you'll never know what that's like and to your credit, you understand that. I did want people reading this to walk in Rashmi's shoes. When reading about IIPM, I noticed that every other post I read about this topic merely said, "people said terrible things about Rashmi-- go here and see for yourself".
Considering how sensational this entire controversy is, it's easy for Rashmi's treatment at the fingertips of these virtual thugs to get overlooked. THAT'S why I wrote the post this way; I was outraged by the abuse she suffered, AS WELL as how they treated Gaurav, etc. But no one else really focused on Rashmi, to my satisfaction. Why should I rewrite a story that had already been posted fifty times when I have a distinct take on it which is valuable and necessary? People don't come to SM for the same old sh...excrement.
I know for a fact that a lot of people won't click a link "to go see for themselves" and I was determined to reveal what kind of filth rashmi had been assaulted with...I wasn't going to make it more pleasant for people reading MY post b/c that would mean that they didn't grasp the horror immediately. Yes, I have a large vocabulary but especially on this blog, the posts and comments with the $10-dollar, SAT-words are often ignored, whether people know or believe this or not. i. did. not. want. this. to. be. ignored. It was too important.
I'm saying, I'd expect to see our friendly SM moderators, and hopefully SM participants as well, maintain some decorum and keep the language here clean wherever possible.
Then why didn't you raise this issue as persistently when Manish dropped the F-bomb, which he has on several occasions? What is it about ME using "dirty" language that has you offended? As for "whenever possible", I don't write every post like I wrote this one, do I?
Everyone has different definitions of "acceptable". I would never have been a part of this enterprise if Abhi had said, "Hey Anna, by the way, you can't swear" because that would mean that I wouldn't be allowed to write as ME. Unlike a lot of people I've met, I don't have a blogging or online persona vs an IRL one. WYRIWYG. We are not, nor have we ever wanted to be a paper of record. If you want decorum, there's plenty of that in MSM and elsewhere. This is a Mutiny. Fishnetted, doc marten-ed, oxblood-lipsticked ME is the reason why the word "punk" was ever bandied about with regards to it.
If that means you occasionally bite a chicken bone, what can I say, I'm a life-long vegetarian and you shouldn't order my chicken sandwiches.
"Shes a whore. A walking cum-dumpster who is so controlled by her genitals, she needs to be fucked and shell take it any way she can. Thats how you tear down a woman..."
I'll be honest, when I first read the above lines, I recoiled a bit, because they seemed so...well, unseemly.
But what is truly "unseemly" here is the sordid reality of an educational institution (indeed the metaphysics of which assume that the Enlightenment-virtues of rationality and reflection can be imparted and are worth imparting) that cynically exploiting a socially recognized code of femininity in order to de-legitimize the (woman) whistleblower. And since I think all of us appear to agree that this aspect of it is quite unseemly, the only question is whether it is OK to use an idiom that is appropriate to the subject at hand. Presumably (since Anna had mentioned banned books-week) we would agree that Ulysses, The Satanic Verses, Lolita, etc. should not have been banned, and agree moreover that it would be inappropriate to ban them even under a legal regime that heavily restricts pornography (i.e. a distinction may be drawn between "mere" obscenity and obscenity to some artistic/political/"wider" end). But if we take this position, then it seems to me we have no call to call for bloggers to self-censor themselves, or to recast their thoughts into more sanitized language, when the blogger's concern is that sanitized language might not adequately convey the underlying sordidness (i.e. I infer that the blogger in question had such a view from the fact that she has used language of the sort I've quoted above). Whether she's right-- does the language convey the effect it was intended to convey (and I for one think she is)-- is a different issue, but why is it inappropriate to make the attempt?
Anna, what can I say -- if the intention of your post was to shock for shock's sake -- which it clearly wasn't -- then I would have had an issue with that. But from your explanation and Ennis' post, I can see what you were trying to achieve. I don't necessarily agree with the method you used, but I support the intent and spirit of not letting readers off the hook on the IITM/Rashmi issue.
Re: your questions --
Then why didn't you raise this issue as persistently when Manish dropped the F-bomb, which he has on several occasions? What is it about ME using "dirty" language that has you offended? As for "whenever possible", I don't write every post like I wrote this one, do I?
I suppose the F-bomb has lost some of its impact on me through its constant use, and honestly I haven't noticed when Manish or anyone else drops it because that particular word just blends in. I know I'm splitting hairs here, maybe your particular pottymouth phrases are a tad more.. colorful than the F-bomb? And that's not necessarily a bad thing, it must be an issue that only I have as you rightly pointed out, since no one else has complained.
There's nothing specifically about YOU (since you ask) using dirty language that I take issue with -- please don't take it personally. I would have raised the same objection with another poster. And of course I don't think you have chronic pottymouth in your posts, I've read enough of your stuff to know better. ;-)
Anyway, the main issue here is the subject of what inspired you post to begin with, and not a discussion on appropriate language and tone on SM since noone else has raised this as a concern. Perhaps its something to revisit some other time -- or as I said before -- we can dead it right here.
PS I plan to keep reading your posts, bones and all. Keep up the good work.
As a man I'm defintely not in tune with the impact of sexual harassment as a woman would be.
I see Anna's intent but wonder if her analogy is overwrought.
First off, it could only have been ONE punk posting under different names, right???) That doesn't diminish Anna's point about men using sexual harassment as a weapon against women, but it does say something of the magnitude of the weapon IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE.
Secondly, why did Rashmi leave the offending comments on her blog? Probably to let these morons shoot themsleves in the foot by letting their words speak for themsleves. And is it also possible that she wasn't as affected by the garbage as we are implying she is?
Sadly enough, most of my (desi) friends don't seem to understand the concept of ad hominem arguments, especially with regard to women.
I remember I was talking about Deepa Mehta with some of my friends back in my IIT days and they just went off about how she must be a lesbian and sex pervert to come up with movies like Fire and Water.
talking about Deepa Mehta with some of my friends back in my IIT days
Which one, TPG? :)
Yo Shawty,
Great job and keep up the good work.
And is it also possible that she wasn't as affected by the garbage as we are implying she is?
No.
I have to second Umair's point. It is the writer's/ blogger's prerogative to choose words to convey her feelings in a free society.
I thought Anna was quite effective. If one has a problem, just do not read it (or stop halfway). Unless, it is hate, slander, and twisting facts - everything is kosher.
talking about Deepa Mehta with some of my friends back in my IIT days
Which one, TPG? :)
Bombay
Well said SM,
I have been following this IIPM story from few days and was amazed by how the blogging world comes together on this cause inspite of fake bloggers from IIPM
hello friends
time to teach some lessons to rogue advetisers like IIPM,NIIT,AMWAY etc
i wonder these print media guys... they will publish ANYTHING ad ADs.. do they have ANY responsibility towards
society.. its collective failure of PRINT MEDIA as well Shame on all newspaper who publish such ads..
i checked out iipm website and it was badly done . being a web designer i realised who cannot create a decent site cannot teach principles which even IIMs adopt tomarrow !LOL
two other similar cases .
..1).amway was exposed in similar way in USA
2)NIIT ads are also misleading
i could have chosen some serious education instead of becoming a dozen-a-dime web site designer
I hate NIIT who wasted my father's life long savings. Their ads are very misleading.
The Indian MSM has finally come out in support
Check this story from Mumbai's new newspaper DNA...
and this one at NDTV the TV channel.
Just a clarification. Rashmi did pass out from IIM Ahmedabad. I was a student there at the same time. In the interview cited above she mentions that she 'opted out' of placements, which incidentally is a brave thing to do. Forego a potentially cushy job to pursue her own dream.
I've spent the large part of the morning reading all these random IIPM-related posts, after I found the link in my inbox, courtesy the Proctor YMCA old boys' mailing list. Have resisted the urge to add my own two cents so far, but hey, this is so crazy, so why not?!
I do think IIPM, like so many of these fake degree-dishing "institutes", is a scam, and their ads have revolted me ever since I first saw them. I mean, how could one take that description of Arindam Chaudhuri as a "noted economist" seriously? I remember when I was in law school in Bangalore and the papers called the then director of my school an "eminent jurist"! It's the same thing... sell the papers some crap and then say "see? the papers say that about me, so it's got to be true". The technical term, if I remember right, is "Circular Logic". "A said A is great. B said A said A is great. Therefore, B said A is great. Therefore, A is great." There is some other fancy Latin phrase for it that I don't quite remember.
The reactions to the whole story amuse me, too. The fake bloggers and their "she's a lesbian" rants, the defenders saying "so what?", some idiot saying folks ought to take out a street procession of some sort, the stupid sales manager at IBM who decided to bend over backwards and kick some poor sod out of his his job to keep his cozy client relationship... the whole thing is just so stereotypical and hilarious, with all due respect to whoever's getting hurt in the process.
I guess, the bottomline is this: we humans tend to fall for scams. We are fed by an urge to believe, and get upset when something gets in the way of that belief. The believers of IIPM's holiness are upset that somebody questioned it. Believers of logic, blog freedom, and of sundry other liberal thoughts are upset that some fellow blogger is being ridiculed for supposedly being a lesbian (or otherwise being personally attacked). And the story goes on... what's the whole point, anyway?
I, for one, won't remember how to get to this blog once I close this window. I succumbed to this urge to add to the debate, just like everyone else has felt the need to do in this little several-blogs-wide universe that surrounds the tale of "How the Big Bad Lesbian Blogger Snatched Those Eggs That Noted Economist Arindam Was Teaching IIPM-lings To Count".
So long folks. I hope I can find my way back when I feel an overwhelming urge to entertain myself on a weekday morning.
Its quite sad to see the comments posted on Rashmi's blog.
However, the vitriolic nature of those comments has given credence to what Rashmi blogged on.
Apparently, those (one-off) bloggers set out with the intention of maligning Rashmi, they ended up achieving the very opposite.
Well, my question is : we all read the comments posted by IIPM students on Reshma's blog. We can definitely judge a system by its output. So, doesn't the filthy language and moronic attitude depict the story in itself? A professional institution needs to react in a more restrained way!
Its a great feeling to see Indian blogosphere roaring in enthusiasm against self-proclaimed gurus. My solidarity to all of you, though I am a really small time blogger. The whole story reminds me of the last scenes from "Scent of a Woman" . Congrats to Rashmi and Gaurav, u ppl really show what is the REAL Indian professional's character and ethics is.
Attagirl!
After reading this blog article , I just realised what a sorry state of affairs our world has become.
I saw Page 3 a few months ago and was shaken by its brazen candour.
I read your article and realised that reality is even worse.
I think I should stick to playing games on my Ps2.
On a more serious note , its exhilerating to see so many bloggers gearing up and fighting for a cause.
Its a proverbial david vs goliath war, but we all know how that ended, didnt we?!
:)
U are one brave gal..keep it up...
n thanks for for updating us on watever shit is happening around us...
U are one brave gal..keep it up...
n thanks for for updating us on watever shit is happening around us...
You guys have done great work in exposing what IIPMs false claims are.But please do not keep using words like "slut", "bitch" etc etc and such deplorably sarcastic remarks.
We all know you are right in what you want to convey.But tone down.Iam sure you dont want to bring a bad name to bloggers who are fighting with you.
Well this is you page and you have freedom of speech etc etc. but also keep in mind - in what taste will you leave the ppl reading it.
All I'd say is We can fight without this sad language.
Kudos to Rashmi Bansal and others for exposing the reality behind the IIPM's hollowness..
The IIPM's ads reflect the maxim, " EMPTY VESSELS MAKE MUCH NOISE".
If the IIPM indeed is as great as it claims, ("Dare to think beyond IIMs), it could have invited the mainstream media and JAM mag to its campuses to show the facilities that it boasts of, and the entire event could have been videoed..
Dear Mr. Arindam Chaudhari,
Do U remember what Stephen Covey (whom u mention in your ads as having visited your institution) said,
" One can't achieve right ends through the wrong means. "
My sincere thanks to Rashmi and others for saving us from falling into the IIPM trap.
I will try and keep on trying for IIMs, but would never accept IIPM's seat, even if gifted freely,
unless it changes its current situation and its deceitful campaigning in ads..
Oh Dear Rashmi bansal and Gaurav Sabnis,
Please forgive those at IIPM who dont know what they are doing.
