October 14, 2005
All Hail ToralTV
We introduced Toral to mutineers with a gentle reminder to her that “all glory is fleeting” and my oh my how true it was. On Thursday, October 13, her Apprentice star was extinguished in dramatic fashion after a run of just 4 episodes. While probably not an ideal role model, we can answer Desi media critics and say that this week at least 1 TV show was truly led by a desi characterThis week at least 1 TV show was truly led by a desi character.
The episode’s story arc traced Toral’s fall starting with her perilous escape from last week’s boardroom - something Trump pointed out was her high point in words almost fitting a Greek Oracle - “Enjoy the view, Toral”.
The subsequent verdict from the flock of Cassandras was immediate and fierce -
“Not bringing Toral into the boardroom isn’t loyalty, it’s stupidity”
And in Waiting to Exhale fashion, a caucus was called where her teammates admonished her to step up the plate and run like she hadn’t run before. The die was cast as her teammate’s demands were diametrically opposed to Toral’s master plan -
“…Toral is a friggin goober”“My strategy was really to take an extremely passive approach that would allow each person to implode because I just didn’t think these people would be able to perform in any manner… I’m not completely wrong about that”
But, as they say in war, no plan survives contact with the enemy. And ironically, her teammates employed precisely this strategy against her. Toral’s constant passivity and shirking of responsibility created the essential conflict and thus one of the more entertaining hours of TV in a long time -
“I’m happy to step up … I know you guys are expecting that from me… BUT… “
And so we see her problem stripped to it’s bare, naked, essential glory. With Toral, there’s always a BUT. Always an out. Always some wiggle room. She appears to live in that precious gap between “try” and “do”. At some level, we suppose she was willing to don the ridiculous mascot costume her team had adopted to complete their assigned task. BUT she was rather adamant that The Toral -
“can’t embarrass myself or my family or my employers”
Apparently The Toral has never seen a single episode of RealtyTV before. Or read the fine print on her contract. One of her teammates aptly summarized Toral’s attitude as only the MTV generation could -
“Toral is a friggin goober”
As fate would have it, the girls lost (again), Toral was a focus point for their anger (again), and their camaraderie (again), and she assumed that the real problem lay collectively with everyone else (again) -
“again, my judgement was 100% on target”“they’re so stupid, they have no intelligence, they have no backbone…. they’re going to get a fight”
Watching this delusion in practice vaguely reminded me of a famous quote from Star Trek: TNG — “If there’s nothing wrong with me, maybe there’s something wrong with the Universe”. Of course Trek is, uh, Science Fiction, while Toral presumably lives in NYC. As the space/time continuum continued to warp around itself, Toral played the Religion card -
“I said that I had a personal and spiritual belief about that stuff”
Now, I don’t claim to be an expert on Hinduism in any way (my family is Christian) BUT, a few min of Googling didn’t really turn anything up. Maybe it’s more like one of those family traditions rather than a sect 
. Most likely, it was a feeble attempt to introduce a third rail into the dialog.“…these are not people I’d even hire as my administrative assistant”
Nevertheless, the central issue in the boardroom became whether or not she’d really mentioned this concern to her team. The video record was clear that she hadn’t and the verbal sparing in the boardroom gave very little support to Toral’s version of events.
The Donald did a marvelous job of translating ToralSpeak into English -
Trump: Did you say religion [to your teammates]? Remember you have to tell the truth, we’re talking about religion.Toral: I believe I did
Trump: …’I *believe* i did’ means ‘I didn’t do it’
In possibly the harshest boardroom of the 4 seasons of the Apprentice, Trump bypassed getting the PM’s opinion, avoided frivolous formality and preserved precious commercial airtime by firing Toral directly -
You know why they wanted you to wear the costume? Because they didn’t want you to contribute. They felt you were the weakest person on the team.…I am so disappointed with you Toral, you have the great Wharton education, but you are totally ineffective, you’ve done a terrible job. And Toral, you’re fired.
Go. Out.
Of course, Toral couldn’t go into the night without her Parthian Shot in her taxicab monologue -
“Some people take their personal dignity very seriously. I’m a person of stature and respect. In every day life I don’t think I’d even speak to somebody like Christi or Felecia; these are not people I’d even hire as my administrative assistant.”
Perhaps. Although something tells me that the resumes and applicants aren’t exactly lining up at Toral’s door. On the other hand, maybe Toral will join other ex-Apprentice mates who have turned ignominy on the show into fame outside. As Manish pointed out, the modern world, particularly it’s Desi corner, celebrates those consumed by hubris almost as much as our victors.
vinod on October 14, 2005 01:30 PM in TV · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
¤ happycrumb.com said: Toral has nobody’s respect including Yahoo Hotjobs - Episode 4
I know people of stature and respect. People of stature and respect are good friends of mine. Ms Mehta, you are not a person of stature and respect.
Some people take their personal dignity very seriously. Im a person of stature and respect. In every day life I dont think Id even speak to somebody like Christi or Felecia; these are not people Id even hire as my administrative assistant.
yeah.
how many posts are you going to have for this witch of the east?
how many posts are you going to have for this witch of the east?
lol.
I'm going to make an everlast punching bag with Toral's face on it, just for Chickpea. Complete with boxing gloves, too!
i agree, enough toral already. let's talk about m.i.a.!
j/k, j/k
Irritatingly, on other online venues, non-Desis are speculating that Toral's attitude is caused by a presumed "high-caste" identity - it is also incorrectly assumed that caste correlates 100% with wealth, and generalizations are being made that most Indian professional women are as snobbish as Toral. Such generalizations are being taken as "useful tips in case I ever interview for a job with an Indian female boss."
Irritatingly, on other online venues, non-Desis are speculating that Toral's attitude is caused by a presumed "high-caste" identity...
Well, link to 'em, let's have it.
Ode to sweet Toral, perhaps the next time we meet will be around twirling dandiya sticks in Jersey City far from the gaze of all these second raters...with apologies to Auden
Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.
*Excised*
The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood;
For nothing now can ever come to any good.
TWOP's recaplet of Bye, Bye Toral is pretty snarktastic. I don't even watch the show, and I was gleeful she got the boot.
Irritatingly, on other online venues, non-Desis are speculating that Toral's attitude is caused by a presumed "high-caste" identity...Well, link to 'em, let's have it.
yeah! I say we go over there en masse and flood the boards with various conflicting caste factoids.
Personally, I like to say I'm a Cinnamon Peeler when asked about my caste affiliation. Confusing Lankans, desis and Amrikans all in one fell swoop ;)
yeah. like I'd even want to work for a psycho shrew moron like Toral.
Personally, I like to say I'm a Cinnamon Peeler...
And Mr. 'trix is the cinnamon peeler's wife? :)
hehe
manish, you are too funny yaar ;)
i want the punching bag..
better yet, give me a dartboard with her face in the bullseye.. hell i'd be aiming for it front and center...
oral toral..
pudding and pie
praised her ass and said goodbye...
She was horrible. She didn't do anything and she didn't want to do anything. She was a big snob with very bad attitude. She is highly assuming and just bad manners all around. I am sure there are nice quality about her but those didn't show up during the Apprentice.
I wouldn't want to work with her or to have her as a friend. Definately not as administrative assistant, since the job is beneath her. She probably talks bad about everybody, either in front of them or behind them. She is truely bad character.
I couldn't believe her words.
Also, Realestate is not a career path which i have high regards. It's not just a cut throat but it's usually very butt-kissing job, super-fake.
Are there exceptions, yes. In her case, she is the norm of the business.
Hunger strike. oz wants Toral-jee back. To get this done oz has a 9 point program all planned out.
... non-Desis are speculating that Toral's attitude is caused by a presumed "high-caste" identity... "useful tips in case I ever interview for a job with an Indian female boss."
This "sample of one" bullshit is so annoying. I once interviewed for a part-time college gig. My boss later confided that she was worried a 20-year-old Indian-American college kid wouldn't accept a 45-year-old female manager. The irony of it all was that she was Asian-American and worked in an affirmative action-related area.
And Mr. 'trix is the cinnamon peeler's wife? :)
ha! I thought of linking to that actually, but went for a more prosiac description.
Mr.C is of hardy mountain stock...I believe they're affiliated with goats.
Irritatingly, on other online venues, non-Desis are speculating that Toral's attitude is caused by a presumed "high-caste" identity
I was waiting for the Caste thing. Finally. hallelujah !!!
Now if we can get Cows into this.. (part of the Caste, Cows and Curry tri-facta)
I really only read one such forum, TWoP, but I thought it might not be kosher to name/link to other forums from here. But here you go, Manish and everyone. And here and here and here.
Found this: http://www.theapprenticerules.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2785&
Nothing scares AmeriKKKa more than a intelligent, beautiful, high-caste brown woman.
...and here.
If this kind of stuff is showing up on TWoP, which has a relatively intelligent population of posters, you can bet it's showing up in other places.
SirChes, Toral does not seem to be particularly intelligent or of good character - but it angers me that speculations about why she is that way have to include "caste." What's next, "elephants?"
Deepa,
I wasnt saying that u brought up that issue. I was just making a general comment(more like a rant)
I know, RC. :) Speaking of curry...weren't her teeth suspiciously white? Guess she had to get those curry stains bleached off before going on TV...
argh. here we go again. argus_nj, was there any need to post that link? didn't A N N A just write a very eloquent post about using sex and sexuality to "eviscerate a woman." raj (bhakta) probably never had to deal with this.
argh. here we go again. argus_nj, was there any need to post that link?
Sorry, didn't mean to offend.
Deepa, the link about high-class attitude is dead on re: NYC women raised in India. In my experience, the ones who can afford to study and work in the U.S. are upper-middle-class or upper class, and they're comfortable with having servants.
Where they go wrong is that it's not usually accurate with 2nd genners like Mehta.
Shudder. Those caste-based speculations are ridiculous. It never came up here because we know better! They don't even know what caste she is; nor do I; nor do I care.
If you're a person of colour, people will always see anything you do or how you behave as having to do with your race.
I wouldn't be too hard on the TWOP crowd. South Asian men and women often have a bad reputation. I know a few people who have told me they would never work for a desi man or woman. Too imperious, arrogant, and condescending. Too prone to treat employees like servants.
(And no caste issue, here -- the perceived problem spans Hindus and Muslims)
So, SepiaStars, is there a 'Desi-style' of management? Do Desis have a cultural problem with being managers. Is it more a FOB problem? A MBA-Desi problem. Or is it all a part of the white man's plan to keep the brown man down?
In my experience, the ones who can afford to study and work in the U.S. are upper-middle-class or upper class, and they're comfortable with having servants.
Sure, but generalizations based on economic class are sufficient, without bringing in caste, especially when the person speculating knows nothing about the caste system. It's exotica again.
Secondly:
Where they go wrong is that it's not usually accurate with 2nd genners like Mehta.
is absolutely correct, and the distinction (immigrant vs. 2nd gen) is not appreciated.
Help a white brotha out, my Indian compadres.
I thought I had made a big leap when I Googled that Toral's last name is Mehta. From Zubin Mehta, I extrapolated that she was a Parsi, which led me to think she grew up rich, which led me to think this is why she's such a condescending behotch.
But I've seen no one mention that she's Parsi. Is Mehta not always a Parsi name?
Not all Mehtas are Parsi, and not all Parsis are rich.
It's all FOB's and The White Man. Ow! Ooo! Ow! I was just kidding!
Toral Mehta is probably a Gujarati. Toral, Tejal, Sejal are typical Gujarati names.
'Twas a witticism, Deepa. A play on a MalcolmXism and 80s Afro-centric T-shirt about "Nothing scaring America more than a intelligent black man!" I've never even seen a episode!
Sorry, SirChes. Took it seriously because I like Malcolm X. :)
"Deepa, the link about high-class attitude is dead on re: NYC women raised in India. In my experience, the ones who can afford to study and work in the U.S. are upper-middle-class or upper class, and they're comfortable with having servants.
Where they go wrong is that it's not usually accurate with 2nd genners like Mehta."
Manish: I find this sweeping generalization, that the "good" Indian women are the Americans, and the "bad stuck up bitches" the FOBs from back home, highly offensive to say the least. It seems like the sort of cartoonish view of the world that Sepia says it stands against.
What's next, "elephants?"
Well, cows, duh. One of the comments mentions that she happily suited up to sell cow-derived products.
And so you've exhausted most people's knowledge of India right there ;)
I find this sweeping generalization, that the "good" Indian women are the Americans, and the "bad stuck up bitches" the FOBs from back home, highly offensive to say the least.
What I said is qualified (ok, agreed, not qualified enough), specific and based on personal experience. It's not playing to stereotype if it's about specific people and it's true.
Where did the phrase 'bad stuck up bitches' come from?
FWIW, the first-gen desi women I know are also way more career-hardcore and impressive than second-genners. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're not going to object to that 'sweeping generalization' ;)
As I just mentioned on another thread, South Asian culture -- both back in India and amongst the dispora -- can be very ego-driven indeed. Which is the reason why you often have arrogant behaviour to a greater degree (and greater frequency) than is the "norm" amongst many other communities.
This is just my own subjective opinion, but I think that excessive arrogance is the fundamental cause of so many social problems and behaviours within South Asian society worldwide. Egotism can wreck one's good judgement -- and make what should be comparatively simple and straightforward matters unnecessarily "political" -- hence the prima donna behaviour apparently demonstrated by Toral and which I'm sure we've also all encountered in our lives within the South Asian community ourselves -- amongst all generations, and "Western-born" as well as recent desi arrivals.
*dispora
Should say "diaspora" (I'm sure you all guessed that anyway)
weren't her teeth suspiciously white?
D- her website had a big fat banner for Brite Smile. Something tells me she's desi enough to negotiate some banner exposure in exchange for goods...
So why do so many bad boys and girls get ahead in this world? Ain't there room for those of us who are nice, and don't lie, cheat, or steal to get around?
This is just my own subjective opinion, but I think that excessive arrogance is the fundamental cause of so many social problems and behaviours within South Asian society worldwide. Egotism can wreck one's good judgement -- and make what should be comparatively simple and straightforward matters unnecessarily "political" -- hence the prima donna behaviour apparently demonstrated by Toral and which I'm sure we've also all encountered in our lives within the South Asian community ourselves -- amongst all generations, and "Western-born" as well as recent desi arrivals.
Couldn't one say this about all human beings?
"I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're not going to object to that 'sweeping generalization'"
Actually, given that I know several "stay-at-home-ers" as well as several who are gung-ho about their careers, I would disagree with that generalization too.
Contrary to your insinuation, I don't object only to generalizations that are less-than-flattering; I object to generalizations about people's characters/attributes because it's the hallmark of lazy thinking.
I'm interested in Ikram's question:
So, SepiaStars, is there a 'Desi-style' of management? Do Desis have a cultural problem with being managers. Is it more a FOB problem? A MBA-Desi problem. Or is it all a part of the white man's plan to keep the brown man down?
Any of you in the corporate world (or any world involving management) have an opinion about this?
love the euphemistic motif of "indian girls all bitches" in rendering a universal history of snobbery. I understand the world so much better now....
Matty,
Mehta is more likely to be Hindu last name. It is also found amongst Parsis.
In Hindus Mehta last name can be found from Punjab to Gujarat and also Maharashtra (I am not 100% sure about Maharashtra). From the name Toral, I am preety sure she is Hindu Gujarati. (That doesnt mean she didnt grow up rich.)
Any of you in the corporate world (or any world involving management) have an opinion about this?Yeah...get a job
Yeah...get a job
Thanks, I'm all set. Toral, maybe you should wait to calm down before going online.
Thanks for your reply, RC, and thanks also Manish for the first half of your reply.
I object to generalizations about people's characters/attributes because it's the hallmark of lazy thinking.
From my own travels in Pakistan (on a different but not entirely unrelated note), I find it interesting that the most pro-military rule people I meet tend to be the well-heeled...
We seem to agree that personal experience is an adequate qualifier.
But I've seen no one mention that she's Parsi. Is Mehta not always a Parsi name?
Toral is a hindu name. Mehta is a fairly common last name, associated mainly with gujus (jains, hindus, parsis etc).
As I just mentioned on another thread, South Asian culture -- both back in India and amongst the dispora -- can be very ego-driven indeed. Which is the reason why you often have arrogant behaviour to a greater degree (and greater frequency) than is the "norm" amongst many other communities.
True for the disporia, not true for South Asia in general.(except among the nouveau rich and middle classes).
Personally, I see a distinction between "the most pro-military rule people I meet tend to be the well-heeled" (my quote) and "the link about high-class attitude is dead on re: NYC women raised in India" (Manish's quote)
In the former instance, I made no claim broader than the people I had met (and used my experience to point to the fallacy of thinking that "education" would make one less susceptible to authoritarian viewpoints); in the latter, you made a general comment about "NYC women raised in India," and your subsequent qualifier served to illustrate and exemplify the generalization (whereas I had been using my personal experiences to undermine what I saw as tef's generalization).
[Aside: I might also add, for those new to the thread, that my comment (#45) responded to a slightly different version of the comment by Manish. The susbequent version concedes that the original comment about women raised in India was "not qualified enough."]
I think Desis (and asians in general) do not have the cultural/historical background to enjoy life. We have a history of extreme poverty and depravity. Even when some of us were doing well, they had to always save for a rainy day. The recent Asian savings glut proves this point. As a result, the only way we can enjoy our financial success is by pouring our derision on fellow Desis.
Americans on the other hand have no such fears. Most live paycheck to paycheck and generally seem to completely disregard the rainy day scenario. Met with financial success, the typical American buys a new car, attempts to acquire an attractive partner of the opposite sex and set about enjoying life.
This is completely absent from the Desi mindset irrespective of first gen/second gen etc. The Desis who are truly assimilated do not visit boards such as this.
Sorry, forgot to mention, the above post was an attempt to explain the diva like mentality of successful Desi babes.
The Desis who are truly assimilated do not visit boards such as this.
Is assimilation a good thing?
I think Desis (and asians in general) do not have the cultural/historical background to enjoy life. We have a history of extreme poverty and depravity. Even when some of us were doing well, they had to always save for a rainy day. The recent Asian savings glut proves this point. As a result, the only way we can enjoy our financial success is by pouring our derision on fellow Desis.
I don't think I've ever come across a more penetrating piece of socio-cultural insight...
(oh wait. did I just prove your point?)
Is assimilation a good thing?
I was almost expecting someone to ask this question.
No, I do not think assimilation per se is a good or bad thing. The point is, a critical self-examination can bring out the reasons for irrational self-destructive behavior. Toral is a case in point. Undeniably her extreme arrogant attitude is linked to her Desi past, a past she is unable to shake. She is the forced over-achiever poster-child who probably has had to constantly live upto her parents' expectations the ultimate award of which was merely to be able to look down upon a small group of people in her family circle (Beti, do you know your cousin Raj could not even get into an ivy league? Hee hee etc.). Had she broadened her horizon, she could look beyond her confines and see that she is really not that successful - America produces probably ten thousand top woman MBAs, thousands of successful woman traders, investment bankers etc. The only reason her vision got clouded was her relative success, which led her to adopt that unbelievably stupid strategy.
Ok, but what does all that have to do with:
This is completely absent from the Desi mindset irrespective of first gen/second gen etc. The Desis who are truly assimilated do not visit boards such as this.
WOW! I guess its raining Toral here. So do we have a new Urban dictionary entry: To Toral! Don't do a Toral on me! Whos going to volunteer come up with a definition?
Its all good though. The Toral effect will balance out the general and stereotypical image of Desis.
Whos going to volunteer come up with a definition?to do a Toral: concoct arcane religious tenets proscribing one from donning goofball clothing. (Usage: Don't do a Toral on me, I need you to wear those Queen Amidala panties I bought you last Christmas tonight, I don't care if it is Karwa Chauth.)
Why psycho-analyse a desi contestant on a stupid game show, and let one person represent the whole community ???
stop talking shit about me. what a bunch of LOSERS.
The Desis who are truly assimilated do not visit boards such as this.
bullshit.
On the subject of an abundance of self-confidence, which the other desi Apprentice Raj had, he definitely didn't express his condescension as openly as Toral. Besides, being a total slut for female attention, I guess he was too busy paying attention to other things.
Hmm, could that be the result of his being half Irish.......
[Significant Other] Mehta
Cellar #1, Cage (a)
Toral Mehta Residence
New York, New York
United States
Dearest Toral,
I've been pretty anxious and nervous watching you on TV. By the way, thanks for giving me a television for the cellar, even if the only thing playing is the Apprentice on repeat from TIVO. Viewing anything other than poor [signficant other #2] crumble in cellar (b) has been refreshing. Oh, I think he's dead.
Anyway, sorry to hear you got fired. As I wait for your arrival, only to be inundated with your tough love, I have a minor request you could entertain; Could you use the soft leather paddle instead of the sandpaper coated wood one? I know you're in a bad mood, but after seeing what happened to the guy across me last time (who I think is dead, the room smells funny), I would highly recommend something a bit tamer. You know, so that you can get more mileage out of me and actually keep me alive. I also promise not to contact authorities like [SO #2], so I beg, no more "It puts lotion on the skin, or else it gets the hose". I beg.
I fear at the rate you're going (and the exposure you've gained), that you won't find too many slave husbands. I love you with all my heart, so don't fire me like that toupe wearing Donald!!! I'll even dress up like him if you'd want me to. If I perform upto your Wharton standards, I hope you will reward me with a quick peek out the window. It's fall right? Wow, it's been a long time since I smelled fresh air. I'm kinda used to the moist, damp, and moldy smell in the cellar. It has grown on me.
Gratefully,
[SO #1]
P.S. - A bottle of Aloe Vera would be nice, too. My wrists and face is pretty raw from our last session, still.
A N N A:
bullshit.
Depends on the definition of assimilation. I was using it in the extreme sense, seen some samples.
Again, please note I do not believe degree of assimilation per se as a measure of superiority (in which case you have to argue an American is inherently superior to all Asians, which would be quite racist).
Deepa:
Hypothetically speaking, say an Asian kid is adopted by white parents. She grows up completely utterly clueless about Asian culture, to her, Moo Shoo is a way to coo animals. Now, that is what true assimilation is. It also happens in case second gen asians basically completely disregard their Asian identity from an early childhood.
Unfortunately, assimilation is seen as a positive trait. This is once again deeply rooted in the belief that American's are truely superior. I call it the assimilation conundrum. It is a well accepted way to push an idea to an extreme to see if it stands. If you do that to assimilation, you will see that the underlying reason assimilation is a sensitive topic for second gen Asians is racism.
This is exhibited by Ms A N N A's profound post, the entire content of which is:
bullshit.
Most curiously, the domain toral-mehta.com is registered by one Mr Vipin Patil of Mumbai. His email is vipin_talks@hotmail.com.
Does anyone know whether Gujuratis with the last name of Mehta are Brahmins? If not, then the accusation of caste-sim seems irrelevant...(unless the Goras are being relegated to the lowest caste and thus being dumped on by any caste above them)
argus_nj, your comment #68 was probably self-evident to every SM poster. What I am trying to understand is your comment #55, which juxtaposes three points, thereby seeming to imply that there is some connection between all of them:
1. Desis come from desperate backgrounds and therefore save all their money and don't know how to have any fun except by gossiping maliciously about each other.
2. Americans don't come from desperate backgrounds and therefore have a lot of fun living paycheck-to-paycheck.
3. Neither first nor second-gen Desis can understand how to have fun living paycheck-to-paycheck, and "truly" assimilated Desis don't visit SM.
I can grasp your three points in isolation, but what does your theory about Desis not knowing how to have real fun have to do with assimilated Desis not visiting SM?
Moreover, in #55 you seemingly take a tone which lauds assimilation, while in #68 you seem skeptical of assimilation. My questions to you are not in order to elicit definitions of "desis," "assimilation," etc., but to try to parse #55.
...and what do comments #55 and #68 have to do with comment #59?
Are you a lawyer Deepa or perhaps studying to be one?
I believe you are irked by my suggestion that in a certain way 2nd gen desis behave like 1st gen desis. Am I correct?
I definitely do not intend to bicker on this point. However, there is got to be some factor behind the seemingly all pervasive arrogant behavior of Indian girls.
...in a certain way 2nd gen desis behave like 1st gen desis.
And what way would that be argus?
Most curiously, the domain toral-mehta.com is registered by one Mr Vipin Patil of Mumbai...
Less curiously, the bottom of her site says "Website Design Deo India."
And what way would that be argus?
Dude, you are doing a classic misquote, first of all, you are taking a fragment of an entire sentence. Secondly, you are just considering one post in isolation, which was merely a part of a series of exchanges between Ms Deepa and me.
The entire sentence was (to Ms Deepa):
"I believe you are irked by my suggestion that in a certain way 2nd gen desis behave like 1st gen desis."
Dude, you are doing a classic misquote,
Dude, you are using the classic avoid-the-question gambit. I read each comment on this post. My question, therefore, is in the context of all that is mentioned here. My question still stands unanswered.
Ok, I am going out on a limb here and about to make an ass of myself by taking this detour. Is it only me, or anyone else shares my sentiments that there could be atleast some iota of a chance that all these 'reality' shows are after all not so real?
The entire shangdebang the way, in which it's done, the forced expressions, bitching, scheming etc..etc.. it all somehow sounds quite unlike what yr avg joe/jenni would do on camera in front of a national audience. Yesterday I was channel surfing and happen to catch a glimpse of Ms Toral, and immediately SM's previous posts came back hitting me..so I stayed put and watched the show just for curiosity's sake and what was this all about.(partly also for Donald's histrionics, and the fact that I can comment on SM the next day)
Before all you passionistas bombard me with loads of statistical data and what not, I admit, I am not too much of a follower of many of current TV shows, much less reality shows. So pls try to be gentle on me. I want to be educated on this topic, not looked at condescension. Do any of you share my opinion?
The only reality show which comes across genuine is Fear Factor. Don't ask me why. I just feel it that way.
Is it only me, or anyone else shares my sentiments that there could be atleast some iota of a chance that all these 'reality' shows are after all not so real?
They are tellyreal -- to coin a neologism. I was watching some dating show and the couple actually complained that they could not talk freely since the cameras made them uncomfortable.
My question still stands unanswered.
In my earlier post, I was trying to dissect the source of arrogance in Indian females. In doing so I came up with a theory. I tried to generalize this theory over all Indian females and in doing so suggested that 1st gen and 2nd gen Indian females behave in the same way, to that extent.
Kapish?
Toral is a real snob and its good she got the boot. I hope we see better desis on shows like these. I have more comments on her at http://coolpri.blogspot.com/2005/10/toral-snob.html
I believe you are irked by my suggestion that in a certain way 2nd gen desis behave like 1st gen desis. Am I correct?
No, argus_nj, my question really is what I said it is: what are you trying to say in comment #55? I honestly cannot parse it. (And I am not a lawyer, and haven't been to school in lo these many years.)
Is your comment #80 meant to be a restatement of #55?
However, there is got to be some factor behind the seemingly all pervasive arrogant behavior of Indian girls.
Perhaps it's their fathers......!
Seriously, what is your basis for saying there's an all-pervasive arrogant behavior of Indian girls? That's not a statement I relate to at all.
Are you sure the problem isn't yours?
I honestly cannot parse it.
I thought you got the gist of it based on your previous posts.
Let me recite a poem (not mine) here:
I am in denial
you are in denial
he is in denial too
you and I will agree in our denial
He will deny it's true.
Bottomline:
Desi females are arrogant.
-> Implies Ist gen desi females are arrogant.
-> Implies second gen desi females are arrogant.
Th implications are proved by impirical observations by me and also pointed out by several posters on this board.
Hypothesis: Successful desis are arrogant because of deeply rooted cultural/historical factors.
-> Holds good for 1st gen desis.
Could we test this hypothesis for 2nd gen girls? This brings out the question of assimilation (and hence its relevance).
Consider this:
A white female and an Indian 2nd gen female -> equivalent pedigreed education -> solid job.
The desi female is more likely to be arrogant. Why?
-> circular reference to assimilation.
Without going into whether assimilation is good or bad, we test this hypothesis using the extremity test (the adoption example in my prior post). Looks like we have something going here. So, could it be that the arrogance in 2nd gen desis could only be explained by degree of assimilation (this thought was strongly assaulted by Ms A N N A, with her profound post).
Perhaps this is the case, I don't know, I am just trying to test the hypothesis.
Once again, we use the other extremity test: what would a 2nd gen desi female do if the assertion that the common definition of assimilation were to be true per the sited adoption example. She would have no clue as to what SepiaMutiny is and how it is a pun on a famous historical episode.
-> This led me to state a corollary: a truly assimilated 2nd gen Asian would not visit SM.
Keep in mind this is an ongoing investigation.
Th implications are proved by impirical observations by me and also pointed out by several posters on this board.
Anecdotal experiances recounted in refrence to a post on the internet by biased observers doth not an empirical observation make.
Hypothesis: Thrown out the window.
Successful desis are arrogant because of deeply rooted cultural/historical factors.-> Holds good for 1st gen desis
No it does not. This jump to a conclusion (desis are arrogant) based on a premise (the cited cultural factors) is what prompted my questioning your 'theory' in the first place. First genners are likely to be very bookish(because most come in as students with scholarships) and somewhat social awkward (nerdy).
Also, the cultural and historical factors you cite viz.
We have a history of extreme poverty and depravity (sic).
do not lead to the first gen conclusion.
Since when did bookish, poor and DEPRIVED people start acting arrogantly? Arrogance is the domain of the well adjusted and the wealthy.
Maybe I don't see your point, seeing as I don't have a hundred eyes.
I get it. DesiDudeInAustin, Ms Deepa and epoch are one and the same person, playing the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde tag team to amuse his/her multiple personalities.
Argus, I assure you that I don't have an alternate female identity. But thanks for the suggestion -- when I launch my drag diva career I'll definitely pick the name Ms. Deepa.
Add this to the list of all the things that you do not get.
and you wonder why i was "profound"
by the by, restating that, even while calling me "ms", doesn't make you wittier.
I thought you got the gist of it based on your previous posts.
Actually, no. I understood you were saying something about desis not knowing how to have fun, and something about assimilated desis not coming to SM, but not what the overarching point was.
I can assure you that I am only me, though thank you for lumping me in with good company. :) An inquiry with the moderators should put your fears at rest (or disappoint you?).
I have to say, everything in your latest post looks like assumptions to me. I don't see a progression of reasoning. But we are definitely not coming to an agreement on argumentation, let alone conclusions. Thanks.
argus_nj,
Where you ever been trashed by a Desi 1st/2nd Generation girl? (Dude, tell me honestly, just only to me, I wouldn't reveal it to anyone.)
Common! Get a life man.....if you haven't seen or experienced any good decent 'good' desi girls in your life, doesn't mean you have to write a Thesis on why desi girls are arrogant in general.
There are so many wonderful girls out there...after all somebody has to stand for them.
I don't think arrogance -- more than the acceptable Western norm -- amongst a disproportionate number of South Asians (please note: I am not saying "all") is just something affecting the women; many of the men suffer from this too, although sometimes the situations obviously differ.
Reasons ? My theory:
- Legacy of the heirarchical Hindu caste system mentality.
- Legacy of the "might is right" mentality from Turkic-Mughal times.
- Less social restraints against (and greater acceptance of, under certain circumstances) arrogant attitudes and behaviour in South Asian society, compared to Western culture (or at least compared to British and North American society).
- Due to various conditioned and external South Asian societal factors, slightly diminished ability to deal healthily with success, power etc -- it "goes to people's heads" too easily.
- Less general compassion/empathy for one's fellow man/woman and a comparatively greater tendency for judgementalism/ridicule/intolerance of perceived failure or "flaws"; hence people become a little too defensive etc due to fear of insults, general lack of respect towards them, and also overcompensate by trying to overachieve (and by exaggerating one's own accomplishments and personal qualities). Success is excessively glorified, perceived failure is excessively condemned and/or ridiculed.
- Excessive emphasis on status, wealth, physical appearance (the latter more for women; with men it depends on one's occupation and income), rather than a belief in a human being's intrinsic worth for his/her own sake.
By the way, to answer one of the earlier questions: Mehta amongst Hindu/Jain Gujaratis is a "Banya" surname, not Brahmin.
Oh for the love of...
Mehta, at least in Pakistan, has tended to be a Parsi name, but I have a couple of Punjabi friends with it as a last name as well, so I'd assume it's not super-specific. I think it's silly to generalise about all desi girls, first or second-generation based on speculation rooted in Toral's behaviour; there are wonderful people and there are bitches out there everywhere, and no matter how much you want to analyse it, sometimes you have to go with Occam's Razor.
this has little to do with the debate, but its being touched on a bit.
colorism in the desi community has got to go.
its almost implicit in a lot of the talk about "status" and caste in the desi community.
if you want to talk about arrogance, talk about light-skinned desis. _that_ is where the true "nobless oblige" is.
all this men/women stuff is nowhere near reality. its laughable to say all desi women are arrogant.
but you know what is not laughable? the fact that colorism in the second gen desi commmunity is _alive_ and well. its not just something that involves the desi community. Even within the wider community, the desi aspiration (on the part of some) to be seen as light-skinned is out there. you can not just blame this on "fair and lovely" because there's second generation people who practice and pursue colorism who have little connection with India. their colorism has its roots in the USA. they practice their colorism with an eye to this country and not India.
colorism has got to go
Argus,
I'm sorry, but your logic so severely flawed it's funny. Hilarious even.
I'm not sure where your "imperical" (you mean empirical buddy) data comes from, but I can't think of a single arrogant desi woman I know.
Heh - consider the hypothesis that your twisted perception stems from your insecurities.
Bake your noodles with that...
-V
you know..
who cares if she's guju, parsi, brahmi, whatever...
bottom line:
she's a brown witch from the east
with no talent...let alone character..
does't matter if she's 15th generation...
who the f*ck cares...
her website is hilarious.. she is so full of herself.. i want to see her on the surreal life..
an undergrad degree from wharton? hell i know a ton of brownies who have that who have a higher IQ, better judgement, tact, and honestly are better looking...
onto better stories..
may the USC TROJANS pounce the IRISH
FIGHT ON!
They are tellyreal -- to coin a neologism. I was watching some dating show and the couple actually complained that they could not talk freely since the cameras made them uncomfortable.
or in other words, an incorrectly applied social corollary to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
argus_nj, allow me to echo ANNA and encapsulate your arguments:
bullshit
Raju, speaking of colorism and the majority's awareness of its existence in Desi society - here.
However, they display no awareness of the colorism in both white American and African-American society. In African-American society colorism is as strong as in Desi society. As you pointed out, colorism is a global phenomenon.
Jai Singh has referred to the reasons for the greater incidence of arrogance among Indians and Pakistanis.
Nirad Chaudhuri wrote of the ethical immaturity of hinduism in "The autobioghrapy of an unknown Indian" "The ethical immaturity of Hinduism is apparent in another direction also: in its failure to develop a high sense of personal moral responsibility. If a course of conduct-for example, the taking of bribes or not giving value for money in the public services or serving an organization or person from purely mercenary motives, disregarding one's moral convictions all the time- is sanctioned or condoned by habit or custom, no Hindu however highly cultured intellectualy, will search his conscience on his own initiative and from a sense of individual duty. The doctrine of Karma has certainly dulled the Hindu's conscience by entrusting the ship of morality to a sort of gyro-pilot."
I noticed a comment from Deepa, asking if us in the corporate world :would we hire Toral. Interesting question, I would have to say yes and no.
Yes : There are many reasons to hire her. From a start up point of view, if you have a product and are looking to grow revenues from 500k/yr to 50mil/yr your management team IS your company's resume. The "We've done this before" in your management teams will speak volumes when seeking VC money or pushing your product to a greater region. Very similar to the presentations in this 'reality' show, a team may only have 4-8 minutes to peek the interest of a room full of (usually Ivy league educated) venture cap managers. Her Ivy league background will assist in the decision. Her structured performance will also help.
Enterprise level environments would love her resume as well, as HR simply passes the resume to the hiring agent, who then parses the resume down to its components, of which all are in order for her. Would she pass the interview? Most likely if she sticks to a formula based approach.
NO : In my corporation (where we did 20 million in revenue in 2001, nyc based, sold April 2004) she would not have survived past the interview. When a resume is on my desk, I usually flip it over and start from scratch. I ask the individual to describe him/herself without the resume to fall back on, and together we build our own virtual resume. Could Toral break out of her well rehearsed interview mold? Would she survive a Google/Microsoft interview? Toral is a formula based VP (like that blonde from season 2 with degrees from princeton and harvard), brought into the corporate world via a system. She wouldn't survive a Stanford MBA program, but she probably could synthesis enough processes to formulate A to C via B to survive her Penn education. It is a system, where jobs fly in via staged happy hours with recruiters from Goldmans, AMEX, (insert generic trillion dollar bank here). Large shops tend to squash individuals beneath them, taking little care of the people they squish. You can see that juice running in her veins. I liken Toral Metha to Gino Torretta from a system point of view (college football reference, sorry).
My two cents :
The sad truth is she will continue to be successful if she sticks to her model and uses her resume to speak for her. She may not get her social life in order, she probably will be miserable at age 45 but she'll continue to make heaps of money. She will always be successful in one aspect of life, but miserable in the other. She has the cashflow to keep fresh batteries in her vibrator.
Honestly though, she deserves a swift kick in the ass. She did just about everything wrong, and when she couldn't get herself out of her own hole, she resorted to the business world no no for leverage: Against my religion. I wonder if there is a class like that in B school "BUS860 10-1130MWF: Religion, Sex, and Race: Bending Title VII."
"She has the cashflow to keep fresh batteries in her vibrator"
Personally I have not seen The Apprentice nor Toral Mehta (except for what's on Sepia), but I must say that over the last few days I have been left with the distinct (and unpleasant) aftertaste of gendered criticism of Toral. I am by NO means suggesting that all or even most commenters are doing it, but the sheer vitriol that Toral has evoked (from statements to the effect that she is near her sell-by date, that she at least will have cash for fresh vibrator batteries, that she is a bitch to the nth degree-- and that ad infinitum), not to mention that Toral is also held to typify and represent a tendency (for some, desi women in general; for others, various subsets of desi women) has been a revelation.
Hear, hear, Umair.
They're just like the 'oral Toral' comments, totally uncalled for.
right on, umair. right on.
there was indeed a weird and unpleasant energy around here yesterday.
it boils down to the fact that all other things being equal, a female jerk ALWAYS stands out more than a male jerk, because pretty much every culture has it encoded that men should be aggressive and women nurturing.
in effect that creates a "free pass" for people to pile on this toral character, reading into her any number of negative traits that they ascribe to... her? desi women? all women? all desis? everyone?
cultural conversation has always made use of archetypes. and yes, they can be useful. but when you're dealing with an archetype, you should be aware of its origins and its limitations.
it's a shame because much of the nastiness came in comments that also contained really sincere points -- as usual here, folks are really thinking about things. but the sexist hate, conscious or not, really takes away from the thoughtful stuff. it's as good a reason as any to make the extra effort to keep it positive.
but it's good we're talking about this. big respect to you umair, you're a great presence around here.
peace
I read a couple of threads on Toral and my first impression was whats the fuss about? I havent watched the last two seasons of The Apprentice, so wasnt really following this one either.
Anyways I downloaded episode 4 and see Toral in action. What an arrogant fool she is? All she does is whine and complain and if there wasnt any element competitive strategy in the campaign, then why doesnt she bring it during the discussion. Shes like oh am smarter than you folks and I hope this campaign fails blah blah blah.
Her last comment was so typical Am the best and you SUCK and bringing her reputation and stature. Oh am all that Poor kid! Using her education background in a wrong way.
Did she even graduate from Wharton with an MBA?
This is a ridiculous comment from the gnomic Bengali pimp Nirad Chaudri:
"The ethical immaturity of Hinduism is apparent in another direction also: in its failure to develop a high sense of personal moral responsibility. If a course of conduct-for example, the taking of bribes or not giving value for money in the public services or serving an organization or person from purely mercenary motives, disregarding one's moral convictions all the time- is sanctioned or condoned by habit or custom, no Hindu however highly cultured intellectualy, will search his conscience on his own initiative and from a sense of individual duty. The doctrine of Karma has certainly dulled the Hindu's conscience by entrusting the ship of morality to a sort of gyro-pilot."
Sure, so Jihadism, Crusaderism, genocidal cleansings, slavery, spiritual excluivism, eternal damnation of non-believers, etc. engenders ethical responsibility and maturity. No one else takes bribes? lol the extent some people will go to.
And to think, an Indian contestant on a flagging reality show whose goal is to be the meretricious and shady Donald Trump's caddy would bring out such nonsense.
There is no lesson to be drawn here. None at all. Not about 1 gens, 2 gens, Hinduism, caste, dowry murder, infanticide, Islam, diva-ism, or whatever else. She did not perform particularly well, but I give her props for not enswathing herself in a chicken suit to comform to some late twentieth century American mercantilist value--team spirit, humility, money, rah rah....blah!
This is a ridiculous comment from the gnomic Bengali pimp Nirad Chaudri
Sigh, someday we Bongs will learn that no matter how intellectual we might be, ad hominem attacks are so not cool.
I think Nirad Chaudhari is definitely right in some sense, in the huge majority of practice of Hinduism (I refer to the common-people variety), it emphasizes a social code, and comes with social responsibilities, but at the cost of individual duty and responsibility
No, where I think he's wrong is to associate that with Hinduism in general, rather than with a specific method of practising Hinduism. There are many sects/scriptures/interpretations of Hinduism which DO stress on the personal responsiblity aspect. Nirad's point is again, like using militancy as an argument against mainstream Islam.
However, as a FOB for 5 years, that's what I love about American society and culture, though. The individualism. It provides an opportunity for personal growth and spiritual development which paradoxically, my experience growing up with Indian culture did not provide.
Well, this was completely off-topic, I guess.
I find Toral's attempt to justify her "I'm above you all"-ish snobbery in terms of religion odd, misguided and misguiding. The notion, in Hinduism, of not doing unto others as you would not want them to do unto you is as old as the Mahabharata at least.
Much to say:
1) This whole thing about Indians being more arrogant than other races is absolutely ridiculous. Can you come up with any more evidence than anecdotal references to the times when someone made you feel inadequate or long lists of bogus "cultural factors". Absolutely pathetic...
2) Yes, I have anecdotally seen many Indians (primarly IIT/Stephens/Ivy trained) come of as arrogant in the workplace, but that is often because they are more ambitious and driven (like many immigrants) than their longer-native counterparts, and shower disdain upon the comfortable and the mediocre. This is not a horrible thing.
3) That said, Toral is quite arrogant. Who wouldn't be though when surrounded by the gaggle of cliquey, ineffectual ineptiudes who are her female cohorts on the show. But the arrogance that shows the most is not a result of her being Indian, its because she's an investment banker, more specifically, a debt capital markets execution specialist. This is, perhaps more than any job around, one where no one cares whether people like you but rather, whether you can walk through fire to get deals done. I have no sense whether she's good at her job or not, but she's certainly not professionally trained to have people like her, least of all the incompetents who populate reality television. All this having been said, I would rather choke myself with a towel than have to spend an hour over lunch with her.
4) The point about wealthy FOBs anecdotally being more arrogant than second generation may or may not be correct. It can probably be explained by the fact that wealthy FOBs, like the upper crust everywhere, get what they want and it shows in their arrogance. Whereas the notably bourgeios second generation acts with the typical servility common to the bourgeois. the wealthier members of the second generation are just as accurate. I have also anecdotally noted that many many second generation desi women (though clearly not all) have the assertiveness of the average sloth bear, but that's probably because so many have been brought up dually in an exceptionally sexist and unthinking American society and the stifling and conservative NRI diasporic communities.
5) Argus_NJ is a tool. That is all.
Very good points, Umair and Siddartha
Eddy,
Perfect rebuttal !!! Great points
Thanks Siddharth, much appreciated.
Eddy: good post, agree completely that Nirad Chaudhuri is a turd, the man is a self-loather (and an everyone-else-loather) if there ever was one.
Technophobicgeek: if what you saw were true then India's Muslims and Christians and atheists would be ethically more mature than India's Hindus; personally I'm skeptical one way or another. But more importantly, I don't have a clue what "ethical maturity" is!
Siddhartha, Umair, THANK YOU for bringing that up. I'm not fond of Toral but some of the comments were downright hateful. Scary. Agree that the hatred was "gendered," too. Also agree that this is largely due in part to preconceived subconcious notions about appropriate roles in society for women and men.
She wouldn't have gotten half this flak had she been male. It's easy to slap the label of "bitch" on a rude woman, but we're not nearly so vitriolic with a rude man. I got the sense folks were enjoying themselves tearing her apart.
... wealthy FOBs, like the upper crust everywhere, get what they want and it shows in their arrogance... the wealthier members of the second generation are just as accurate.
No-- in my experience, this is much more true of the people I know who are a) upper or middle class and b) were raised in countries with a low cost of labor, where having household staff is common. For me it's absolutely one of the strangest adjustments to make when visiting India. (Conversely, in the U.S. mainstream, the oddest things to me are the low level of public emotionality, and attitudes toward family.)