One thing Shah Rukh Khan has perfected to an art is crying. Check out some of his movies - half the time he is sobbing.

Actually, Kush, that's the one thing I think he doesn't do well, and wish he wouldn't. He's a fabulous comic actor--smirks, raised eye brows, incredulity, straight face, rolling of eyes: he does it all nimbly and without excess. He's even decent angry. But I can't stand it when they make him cry, and they always, always do. Perhaps he just needs more subtle direction.

I think it is possible for Indian film-makers to create a significant market in the US. Unfortunately, no Indian film has come even close to generating "Crouching tiger.." type of revenue.

Yes, there are cultural barriers, but they exist for Asian films as well. Strong stereotypes exist for movies from specific regions - for instance Bollywood is song and dance, China/Taiwan etc. are Kung Fu movies while Japan is Samurai films.

I am not sure but it looks like playing the stereotype even more strongly is more conducive to garner greater market share.

The so called cross-over films fail miserably. There are two categories of these films:

a) A Bollywood production which tries to capture the NRI market. This is a farely successful strategy but fails to reach the US mainstream audience. Unfortunately, often the forced attempts to throw in an "NRI element" makes these movies quite distasteful.

b) Indian-American attempts like ABCD/American Desi etc. which do not get anywhere and are pathetic in terms of quality.

I do not believe the mainstream Bollywood will ever be able to deliver a US blockbuster. I had high hopes for aspiring Indian American movie makers, but they seem to be unable to break away from the arranged marriage theme.

"I do not believe the mainstream Bollywood will ever be able to deliver a US blockbuster."

If it will ever happens, it will be through mainstream Bollywood. Also, without NRI theme (again sobbing, bhajans in NYC etc.), Bharat Mata, Gurinder Chada, yada, yada angle.

It just has to be a compelling story. Crouching Tiger was one. A few days ago, I saw another beautiful Chinese movie, "In the mood of love" - just an excellent movie, nothing more.

Saheli, I agree they should limit SRK's sobbing.

If it will ever happens, it will be through mainstream Bollywood.

Bollywood is so deeply entrenched in formulas and also so deeply tied to the largely illiterate mafia types for financing, that there is little hope at least for now. The biggest and little acknowledged trouble in Bollywood is the way the industry is structured. Writers, screenplay writers etc are paid very little. We have all heard of Christopher Doyle, how many Bollywood Cinematographers can we name? I think Bollywood has little incentive to produce high quality intelligent movies until such time when there is a sizable upper-middle class population.

He's a fabulous comic actor

The success of Shah Rukh Khan is an indictment to the intelligence of the Indian movie audience.

oai!! you still here?

Well I was gonna say pretty much what argus said but he got there before I could.
I've seen more than enough Indian-American films to know that it will be a long long time before any Indian film breaks through in the american mainstream market. Bend it like Beckham only succeeded because of great marketing and because of Keira Knightley's pairing with the lead female character. If i remember correctly, it was originally to be a lesbian story, but the director toned it down.
Most of the films made about indians abroad are the same PSA, "isn't my immigrant dad's accent funny, i need to discover myself for i am from a spiritual and mystic land" drivel.
We're no different from our Bollywood bretheren, and the less said about them the better. Their pipe dream of breaking through in the american market is as hopeless as the movie-star-placard-holding wannabees on sunset boulevard.

"A few days ago, I saw another beautiful Chinese movie, "In the mood of love""

Correction: It was Kar Wai Wong's "In the mood for love". Highly recommended.

They could have chosen a better Bollywood flick than Paheli, it was just horrendous in my opinion.

Back to the ThirdI festival, I volunteered last year and thought it was a really awesome experience. Aside from getting to meet really cool and artsy progressive South Asians ;-) (as well as Parminder Nagra!), the festival is really unique in the types of films it brings to light. There is a lot beyond Bollywood out there and this is definitely a great chance to experience some of that. I'd highly recommend going if you are in the area.

While I agree with most comments on the technical quality of Bollywood films, I think to evaluate film as a medium, its cultural history and the place of art in Indian society cannot be ruled out. Melodrama is part of popular folk culture like "nautanki" "jatra" etc. That audience is being weaned to films and hence this emotional drama element is part of popular film structure.(much as we dislike it)

I don't think the audience being catered to through film is the kind of people on this site.We have been raised on western notions of emotion and anything based on excessive expression of any sentiment is "melodrama" in our eyes. We should stick to watching western filmmakers who will cater to these "sophisticated" emotional sensibilities.

On a serious note, how many here have seen Hazaaron Khwahishein aisi? Or for that matter Bunty aur Babli.Both films were well recieved and were (semi)realistic in 1. A serious way(HKA) and 2.In a frivolous campy Bollywood style( Bunty and Babli)?

Its a little hard for top quality art to arise out of a society that is still racked by bread butter issues......

And here is Sony pictures first global Hindi film project

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story3%2Etxt&counter_img=3?headline=Bhansali~is~Hollywood's~new~saanwariya

S.

I've only got a sec. Kush, Wong Kar Wai is one of my favourite directors. In the Mood for Love is a beautiful film, as are many of his others - do check them out. I watch a lot of Chinese movies spend a lot of time comparing the film industries of China and India, leave aside their economies! I'll write something on me blog soon and let you know.

I'm gonna be attending a few events at the London Film Festival, there are loads of films that sound interesting showing. Amongst the South Asian fare: Rituparno Ghosh's Antarmahal, Sandip Ray's After the Night...Dawn and Aparna Sen's 15 Park Avenue. Cue my usual mantra: Bengalis rule!

There are also some Keralite and Tamil films...and no Bollywood in sight.

Sumita brought up...

Hazaaron Khwahishein aisi?

ade

Aside from getting to meet really cool and artsy progressive South Asians

Kush: In the Mood for Love was an incredible movie and Wong Kar Wai is a phenemonal director. There are directors of that quality in India (Shekar Kapur) and there have been films of that quality (Mandi, etc.) but the settings are so undeniably Indian that they don't work as well here. In the Mood for Love could have just as easily been set in San Fransisco or Paris.

Dhaavak

That was a wonderful translation. The film (HKA)reminded me of Ghalib's shayari and I got the dvd of the TV show as well as the cd..

Am enjoying it..Wish there were translations more can enjoy

Sumita

Sumita

Films like Dil Chahta Hai demonstrate that melodrama can be toned down and packaged into something acceptable, without affecting its commercial success and that is what gives me hope.

Shah Rukh in a really big turban:

i think that part of the reason why the drama and emotions are so highly exaggerated in indian cinema is because they need to cater to the average desi. the average desi at the movies sits in the 20 rupee seat, and takes 3 hours of his/her day to escape from reality. for 3 hours, he/she can forget that rotis need to be put on the table, and that their 4 year old needs admission in a good school etc etc.
i don't know how many of y'all (yes, i'm a texan) have been to a theater in india....it is an experience in itself. to begin with, the actual room holds 5x as many people as a tinseltown theater, and the screen is naturally much larger. thus, salman khan's muscles look like the Rock's. i went to the "first day, first show" of lagaan....boy was that a mistake. my hindi isn't great to begin with, but it didn't help that 8 college dumbasses were sitting behind me whistling and screaming the entire time. i had my 6ft tall uncle turn around and hush them...that worked for 15 minutes. i got so fed up that i stood up (in the middle of the movie....i was a hot-tempered 18 y.o. at the time) and yelled "shut the hell up! all of you!" at the top of my lungs. worked for 45 minutes.
anyway, point being is that the general public goes to the movies to have a good time. they want to laugh, sing, shout, and cry....they don't want to be disturbed enough to prevent them from sleeping at night. cinematography to them is seeing the Alps, not the juxtaposition of a burning lamp and a dying plant in the background.

i'm kinda talking out of my ass, sorry. my uncle would have a better opinion on this. he lectures on indian cinema at UPenn, and is starting a film institute in Chennai....i'll see if i can get ahold of him.

Amu was shown last week to a sold out crowd at in Toronto at the Spinning Wheel Sikh Film Festival and recieved a standing ovation. First time I've seen a narrative story on the screen about the 84 pogroms in Delhi. It is a must see.
Ali Kazimi's Continuous Journey is also a great historical piece on the first Sikh migration to Canada. It was shown at last year's Spinning Wheel. This year I saw his latest film, Runaway Grooms...whoa. Brilliant documentary on the problem of abadoned wives in Punjab. I spoke with him after the film and he says that in Canada the phenomena of going back to the motherland, marrying, extorting money and then abandoning your wife is mostly seen in the Punjabi community, however in America, the trend runs mostly in the Gujrati community. There are something like 30,000 abadoned women back in India...
Go see the films and support the artists.

"i don't know how many of y'all (yes, i'm a texan) have been to a theater in india...."

Many, many, many times, even recently. Somebody, once pointed me out that during depression period, even hollywood movies were escapist, song-dance (somewhat bollywood) like sequences . There is nothing wrong with that.......only some quality story, elegant story telling, and acting is being demanded. Simple example is Charlie Chaplin moives, they are timeless.

They always been beacons of hope even in Bollywood: Bimal Roy, Guru Dutt. I am not counting Satyajit Ray in Bollywood.

I bet if the masses are given more intelligent fare, they will eat it up.

Get your uncle to comment too.

i think that part of the reason why the drama and emotions are so highly exaggerated in indian cinema is because they need to cater to the average desi.

anyway, point being is that the general public goes to the movies to have a good time.

they don't want to be disturbed enough to prevent them from sleeping at night.

Let me put this question to all mutineers:

*If somebody in India made films like Crouching Tiger, Ran, Hero, Raise the Red Lantern, House of Flying Dagger in terms of craftsmanship (the whole package - acting, direction, cinematography), you think the Indian masses will not love it. They will absolutely.........their expectation will be raised a couple feet. Let us not blame the masses for the mundane fare dished out by bollywood.

* = I am not using western movie makers like David Lean et al., and not including very cerebral, art house movies for mainstream cinema discussion. I am not even bringing Wong Kar Wai into it.

Kush's comment

Let me put this question to all mutineers

If somebody in India made films like Crouching Tiger, Ran, Hero, Raise the Red Lantern, House of Flying Dagger in terms of craftsmanship (the whole package - acting, direction, cinematography), you think the Indian masses will not love it. They will absolutely.........their expectation will be raised a couple feet. Let us not blame the masses for the mundane fare dished out by bollywood.

Therein lies the challenge of balancing risk versus expected reward.

The one example I am aware of - when presumably a shrewd business person got the financial engineering right - was the T-Series case - apparently this guy Gulshan Kumar used hindi movies as a vehicle for the songs he would sell on his audio cassettes - he basically blew the market open and effectively started the industry in a whole new direction - the quality of movies remained as good/bad as ever - but I believe we did see some excellent melodies ocme out of that era.

dhavak,

I love melodrama......I will always enjoy and revere Amitabh Bachchan's early movies, like Guddi, Dewar, Sholay, Zanjheer, etc. Or Dev Anand early movies or Raj Kapoor's Bobby, Mera Nam Joker, etc.

The Bollywood doesn't do that anymore......it is always the same Nani Ma doing bhajans in NYC or SRK sobbing in Wall Street/ NASA when he remembers Bharat Ma or Hirtik dancing in a Swiss disco".

*Again, Mithun wasn't doing that in Disco Dancer.

What I want to know is, why is it that the Bollywood fare of today is so markedly inferior to the movies of yesteryear? The argument that Indian audiences simply want escapism is condescending and simply doesn't wash for me: movies like Saheb Bibi aur Ghulam, Shree 420 and Sholay were made in an India where living conditions were more wretched than they are now, and they're light-years ahead of anything the popular cinema produces in India today. I don't mind escapism, melodrama and less naturalistic acting styles at all: early Bollywood (and Hollywood for that matter), show that those techniques can be used to sophisticated ends, so my dislike for the current Indian cinema isn't based on simple snobbery.

Dhaavak,

sorry, for the wrong spelling of your name.

Kush

Dhaavak,

sorry, for the wrong spelling of your name.

Kush

Array yaar... you kid me now.

What I want to know is, why is it that the Bollywood fare of today is so markedly inferior to the movies of yesteryear?

I have to agree with dhaavak - a lot of new trend in bolloywood movies are due to revenue from DVD sales, targetted toward NRIs. Then, like others said before (Amitabh Bachchan himself on NPR too), the financing system of bollywood is rotten to the core.

It is market economics. As bong breaker as promised that he will write about Chinese-Indian film industry more.

However, I want to point out Chinese film industry (including Hong Kong) gets a tremendous help/ push/ funding from larger Chinese diaspora in real terms and Hollywood too (again, once you make products that sells - financiers come out of wood work).

Ok, here's another question: why are NRIs so astonishingly unsophisticated in their moviegoing tastes? Surely they must know that little gora kids on the streets of London don't know the words to Vande Mataram. Why exactly do NRIs find the peurile jingoism of contemporary Bollywood so appealing? I can only conclude that there's some sort of guilt thing going on.

Ok, here's another question: why are NRIs so astonishingly unsophisticated in their moviegoing tastes?

And why might you expect specifically NRIs to be sophisticated in their moviegoing taste?

You've really never fully appreciated an SRK film, complete with unfettered sobbing, until you've seen him at The Castro. Having seen Main Hoon Na, and KKKG there the previous two years, I can attest to this fact!

I don't actually expect NRIs to have better taste than the general Indian population: it just surprises me that, if anything, they seem to have worse taste. If Dhaavak and Kush are right, the marketing of movies to NRIs has a lot to do with the crappy nature of the fare that Bollywood churns out these days.

amba says

Ok, here's another question: why are NRIs so astonishingly unsophisticated in their moviegoing tastes? Surely they must know that little gora kids on the streets of London don't know the words to Vande Mataram. Why exactly do NRIs find the peurile jingoism of contemporary Bollywood so appealing? I can only conclude that there's some sort of guilt thing going on.

"movie by arthur miller's daughter."

arthur miller's daughter, rebecca miller is daniel day lewis's wife. are you talking about "the ballad of jack and rose"?

why do i still see bollywood movies?
ans: it is in my blood, as is the heat and dust of india. i have to get my bollywood fix, no matter what. i just wish for a "better high".

a korean movie i saw had rabid incest

Are you referring to Oldboy?

I have indulged Bollywood with $8 of my hard earned money now and then... Why?

Almost everyone would. There is the element of belonging, almost like Mom's homecooked dinner.

If Dhaavak and Kush are right, the marketing of movies to NRIs has a lot to do with the crappy nature of the fare that Bollywood churns out these days.

Yes, it is a lot to do with marketing but the underlying cause is economics, as Bong Breaker pointed out. Would love to read his views on his blog.

However, not all of it makes complete economic sense. I mean, the average budget of the Asian films is not that high compared to Indian films. The high budgeted Indian movies run to about $4M - 20M. That is in the same ballpark as most Asian films. The only way to explain it is the composition of domestic audience. China/Taiwan/Hong Kong/Korea/Thailand, all have a sizable affluent class, larger than India.

As of now, as an Indian filmmaker, you find yourself between a rock and a hard place. Say you down $5M for a movie. The upper middle class in India will perhaps give you $2M back. You have no choice but to strike a compromise, reach out to the larger general mainstream audience (~$5M) and the NRI community (~2M). These are all ballpark figures by the way.

arthur miller's daughter, rebecca miller is daniel day lewis's wife. are you talking about "the ballad of jack and rose"?

You did not just diss Oldboy...
If we were face to face, it would be on...

I love asian films, especially Korean cinema. Korean cinema is full of lighthearted fare, but it has variety and there's no BS censorship system involved because the audiences there don't just watch one genre and tend to be more mature in their filmgoing experience.
HK cinema isn't without its financing problems, including ties to the triads, but a lot of companies and banks have come forth in the 90s to reduce that problem, whereas most of bollywood is still being controlled from Dubai, and media exposure has been little to none.
Half the deals/events that go on behind the scenes are never reported for fear of being denied access.
Immediately after Oldboy came out, every other korean film copied Park Chan Wook's slick style, and now its gonna be remade in Hollywood. I'm surprised it hasn't been discovered in Bollywood yet. Oh wait, they're still doing remakes of fight club. I guess they'll get to Oldboy in a few years, via the Hollywood version.
I think RGV was a little bit pre-emptive in saying "fuck the villages" when referring to film revenue.

Bollywood film: 5 - 20 mil
NRI film: anywhere from 5K to 100K often with better production.

Man, I should just go back to india and get some venture capitalists interested. Its a dry market out here for us NRI filmmakers.

Unless you're making american desi 2 which (through the grapevine) has a locked down script and will be shooting by the end of the year.

Immediately after Oldboy came out, every other korean film copied Park Chan Wook's slick style, and now its gonna be remade in Hollywood.

Well, "Il Mare" is being remade with Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock. "My Sassy Girl", starring the cute Jyun Ji-Hyun is being remade by Gurindhar Chadhdha.

Remakes are the norm rather than the exception for hollywood.

I know that there is a lot of excitement surrounding Asian films nowadays. I believe that they are somewhat overrated. Yes, they are very slick, the technical work is perhaps the best in the world, but the French still remain the pioneers. The Asian films have come of age because they have stopped copying Hollywood and instead gone back to the source, Godard, Ozone, Haneke etc.

NRI film: anywhere from 5K to 100K often with better production.

Could you give an example? The ones I saw (ABCD, American Desi etc.) were quite dull and lacking in technical expertise.

anangbhai,

I have seen half a dozen (maybe, around 4-5) Indian American films. Their grade: D to F in every category. I liked Guru a little bit then that is mainstream hollywood. I haven't seen Harold and Kumar yet.

Venture capital, you'll have to deal with Mumbai mafia.

Well I can't make it over to the west coast, but there's something just as awesome if not more so, over in NYC from Nov. 3-6. The Indo-American Arts Council is having a film festival and it's going to be off the heezy, I believe.
http://www.iaac.us/fifthannual_film_festival2005/Schedule.htm

Anyone want to come with??

Kush, watch Harold and Kumar! I don't think anyone will ever like it as much as me, seeing as it's basically about my life. No, EXACTLY my life. Although I don't put it in the Indian American bracket, seeing as it's not Indian American in the slightest, apart from Kal Penn obviously. It's more in line with American Pie, seeing as a lot of the same people were involved. And the director is the Dude Where's My Car? chap. I don't particularly like either of those, but H&K had me in stitches.

Amba. I love you. From the bottom of my heart. For this para:

Ok, here's another question: why are NRIs so astonishingly unsophisticated in their moviegoing tastes? Surely they must know that little gora kids on the streets of London don't know the words to Vande Mataram. Why exactly do NRIs find the peurile jingoism of contemporary Bollywood so appealing? I can only conclude that there's some sort of guilt thing going on.

Spot on. I have to run, but I could whinge all day about NRI and their bakwaas ways when it comes to movies.

Anang, I replied to your comment on my blog by talking all about Oldboy and here you are talking about it! Great minds...(and fools)

I once had the misfortune of seeing this on a long long trip to India.

I am a HUGE fan of H&K. Being from NJ, I truly understand exactly how satisfying a White Castle burger is at 3 in the morning.

I find the view that dismisses Bollywood as simply unsophisticated somewhat tiresome. At their best Bollywood movies are akin to operas in my view: I don't see anyone suggesting that Aida or Troilus & Cressida are puerile or unsophisticated on the grounds that the characters behave in ways that are unfamiliar to us from "real" life. [Aside: Farhan Akhtar "got" this in "Dil Chahta Hai," working in an excellent sequence when Aamir Khan and Preity Zinta are at the opera.] To dismiss Bollywood films on the grounds that they are not psychologically realistic is to assume that is the only way in which to make cinema-- it's akin to what Orientalists in the 19th century used to believe about ancient Persian sculpture, that it was unsophisticated because its representations of monarchs were "flat" and lacked three-dimensionality. More recent research has indicated that this mode of sculpture was borne of an ideology that considered it somewhat inappropriate to represent monarchs in anything other than profile.
I think Bollywood's cultural specificity makes it very difficult for it to gain many adherents in the West-- much of the mythological motifs and the political undercurrents are lost in the transposition.
I do detest the wave of "NRI" Bollywood movies though, typified by the sort of garbage Shah Rukh Khan usually appears in (e.g. "Kal Ho Na Ho"). This sort of thing has killed Bollywood-- i.e. it strips it of any mythic ground, leaving merely an empty kind of celebration of some vague Indianness that one carries with one to foreign lands (typically while simultaneously indulging a kind of xenophobia-- witness the mean-spirited homophobic humor and anti-Chinese jokes in "Kal Ho Na Ho"). Unfortunately, to most of my ABCD friends and acquaintances this post-1995 trend of cloying love stories is "traditional Bollywood". As for me, I can barely recognize the industry I grew up with:
http://qalandari.blogspot.com/2005/08/two-strangers-and-oracle.html

To dismiss Bollywood films on the grounds that they are not psychologically realistic is to assume that is the only way in which to make cinema--

Realism is just one of many dimensions that define a good movie. People do understand this.

The problem of Bollywood is not about lack of realism, it is the utter lack of imagination and depth. People get a little tired of the same ideas. Even when a Bollywood movie is made purportedly with a "bold" theme, so many cliche items are also thrown in that the impact gets completely diluted. Bollywood is also severely lacking in aesthetics and technical qualities. Way over the top colors, little sense of composition, incongruous background score - the list goes on. Bollywood has a tendency to overdo basically everything. Why do movies have to be so wordy?

Have you noticed ... ? Most movies have a scene where the Hero and Heroine are in a snowed out place (during a song sequence mostly) with Hero in western outfit and Heroine in a somewhat revealing sari !!! :-)

I think thats so ridiculously funy.

RC: ha ha that's hilarious-- I remember "Pukar," where Madhuri Dixit is in a blue sari (the shooting took place on a glacier or something in Alaska). Apparently she contracted mild pneumonia after the shooting...

The glacial motif is a metaphor for hell finally freezing over so the poor schmuck might finally get laid.

I can't wait for the day that the love of my life and I do a delightful musical number in the rain. That's sexy.

"I can't wait for the day that the love of my life and I do a delightful musical number in the rain. That's sexy..."

My kinda woman...

wow, some of you guys need to be seriously whipped down from your high horses.

I think there are good Bollywood movies and bad ones. And if you don't like singing and dancing (in snowy mountains or elsewhere) go watch something else.

Unfortunately, even a movie with good production values will be dismissed as "cheesy" by a mainstream American audience, owing to the Indian preference for melodrama and song/dance.

Martial arts are always going to be cool, especially combined with good production/direction.

While I am all for new production values and good new stories and stuff, I don't think Indian cinema should lose its identity just to satisfy western audiences (or so that 2-gens/immigrants don't have to hang their heads in shame) or just to try get a stupid Oscar or something.

Surprisingly enough, Indian audiences DO have access to western movies. They DO have the choice not to watch Indian movies, but they still do.

You might call them (us!) unsophisticated or whatever, but I think the future of Indian movies should be dictated by Indian audiences and not by American tastes.

I can't wait for the day that the love of my life and I do a delightful musical number in the rain. That's sexy.

And if you don't like singing and dancing (in snowy mountains or elsewhere) go watch something else.

But letting the girl freez her ass off (sometime literally, as Umain pointed out), while the Hero is dancing comfortably clad in a coat .. isnt that cruel ?? (Besides being stupid, funny, sexists and a lot of other things) But that may be "Indian Culture" (what ever the F#$% that is supposed to mean)

"I can't wait for the day that the love of my life and I do a delightful musical number in the rain. That's sexy..."

My kinda woman...

You know how we do.

technophobicgeek: well said

You know I can understand the litany of abuses thrown Bollywood's way. they are melodramatic, unrealistic, and sometimes sexist and racist. Like technophobicgeek said, there are good ones and bad ones...and recently, more and more of the bad ones (IMHO) are becoming hits, e.g., veer zaara, k3g (sorry if some people here liked it--i couldn't sit through it), kal ho naa ho.

that said, there are some incredibly crappy french/italian/hollywood movies that make me cringe just in the first 20 movies. anyone here see "be cool"? i don't think creativity and imagination is the purview of only some western european, north american, japanese, and chinese moviemakers.

BUT i have found that bollywood/popular hindi cinema as it stands today is an incredible unifying force. i grew up in thailand and indonesia and the cult following that bollywood commands there and other south east asian countries, japan, some african countries is impressive. maybe the human emotions and situations portrayed in hindi cinema are for the most part exaggerated, but they must resonate at some level if such geographically dispersed populations can identify and engage with them!

sorry...i wrote that surreptiously at work so it was sloppy. by "they" in the first paragraph, i was generally referring to mainstream hindi movies.

maybe the human emotions and situations portrayed in hindi cinema are for the most part exaggerated, but they must resonate at some level

I have had Iranian-Americans, Russians, Italians and South Africans (not Indian origin) come and talk to me about Bollywood movies endlessly and they all love it. Last year at New Year, I noticed in a Johannesburg newspaper, they had a quarter page analysis of recent Bollywood movies and recommendations

Nobody will ever want Bollywood movies to become western or anything like that. Myself, I am just shouting for new ideas, and higher quality control.

I can't wait for the day that the love of my life and I do a delightful musical number in the rain. That's sexy.

Oh Fuerza, you give me hope! Tell me when and where, and I'll go anywhere for a rain-dance with you :)

Myself, I am just shouting for new ideas

I'd agree with you on that, and extend that shout to Tamil movies as well. If you think Bollywood is bad...Kollywood can be worse.

Anyone want to come with??

Fuerza Dulce - sure, haha my cousin's movie is playin on Nov.4, Finding Preet, so i'll be in the area.

You like White Castle, haha maybe we can get hungry before the movie...

I can't wait for the day that the love of my life and I do a delightful musical number in the rain. That's sexy.

Anyone thing its a good idea or are we just a couple of kumars lookin for the promised land?

Technophobicgeek - I would prefer on some sort of flatland. As far as the time, I guess we'll have to see. My finals are done on Dec. 16 - if there's sexiness and rain involved, we may just have to make a trip to Australia.

Cocopuffs-

Re: The film festival: Get at me, homey ji-funk!

Re: White Castle - I LOVE White Castle! If we link up for this thing I would totally be down to grab a couple of bacon cheeseburgers from WC.

Re: Your tourist idea - that actually might work down in the West Indies or in the Nordic areas. Yere me rude bwoy, dem Swedes and dem Trinis be lovin dat Bollywood flava. Booyakasha!

they must resonate at some level if such geographically dispersed populations can identify and engage with them

Amen to that.

I was standing at a bus station in Tel Aviv when a Polish Jew (who spoke only Hebrew and Polish) walked up to me and this is what happened.

PJ: Jimmy.
Me: Excuse me?
PJ: Jimmy.
Me: I'm sorry I don't understand.
PJ: Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, Aaja aaja aaja.

Raj Kapoor and Mithun Chakraborty have some sort of a fanatical cult following in Russia (Russians visiting our house used to literally sit right next to the TV when we played Hindi movies). There are innumerable Japanese Rajnikanth fan sites out there. And then there is the story of one of my friends who hitched a ride with a East European guy in the Czech Republic - a 6ft badass bald dude with a gun and a hot girlfriend in leather - and the lady started asking my friend about Mithun's movies.

Ok, but who ISN'T a Rajnikanth fan? Seriously.

Oooh Rajnikanth, your sexy 'stache gives me a funny feeling inside....

It is not a question of Bollywood improving so that NRIs wouldn't have to hang their heads in shame. Actually I would argue quite the opposite - NRIs tend to want to preserve the nostalgia factor.

I see in Bollywood an interesting case study. Much of Bollywood's problems mirror that of India.

Consider this:
a) Bollywood has world class talent
b) Technical competence
c) Bollywood knows how to target a market segment (successful exploitation of the NRI market)

So, why has it not been able to attempt a "Crouching tiger.." with returns upwards of $100M?

The answer lies partly in economics. The size of Indian affluent class makes it unviable for movie makers to target it with a sizable budget movie. It may happen a decade later.

Another aspect is the messy financing situation.

I also suspect a built-in feedback loop that is throwing Bollywood back into the formula genre. No one attempts anything different, the audience is perfectly content - so the cycle continues.

Consider this: a) Bollywood has world class talent b) Technical competence c) Bollywood knows how to target a market segment (successful exploitation of the NRI market)

argus_nj :

a)world class talent, there are maybe 3 actors who have talent, the rest of the assclowns like salman khan i don't consider talented, he's not even close to actors like ed norton or brad pitt, who are sex symbols and actors in their own right

b)i'll give you technical competenance
c)If Bollywood knew how to target the NRI audience, they would have already made a $100 million return movie like crouching tiger.

Although production quality has improved in recent films, the dialog and plots have started to suck even more. Instead of a push to make NRI not ashamed by m aking quality films they are just giving the actresses smaller outfits. Point blank, the majority of movies are terrible. Although i like brown girls so i'll keep watching koena mitra!

I think for this particular forum, the more relevant question is why the Indian, in particular, the Indian-American community in the US doesn't lead the way in terms of movies. A good start would be to produce something with better technical merits than 'American Desi' and its ilk.

The Indian-American community is supposed to be one of the smartest, most creative and well-to-do communities, and I think they can come up with better stuff than that!

Hopefully, 'The Namesake' might do some of that...but we'll see.

The Indian-American community is supposed to be one of the smartest, most creative and well-to-do communities

I'll give you smartest and well-to-do, as far as creative i'm going to have to disagree. While we may be smart i'm just going to compare this to my own family, everyone in my family over the age of 30 is successful in their "indian type job" aka doctor, lawyer, business person, finance, etc. This goes for nearly all indians i know. Although they may be creative you don't see any major roles of indian americans on TV, music, books, art, etc. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but we don't even have representation which is comparable to the latinos or african american, even chinese americans have more. How come there is no indian version of rush hour?
just some thoughts

So, why has it not been able to attempt a "Crouching tiger.." with returns upwards of $100M? The answer lies partly in economics. The size of Indian affluent class makes it unviable for movie makers to target it with a sizable budget movie. It may happen a decade later.

I’d agree with you—the answer lies in economics. The Indian movie-watching audience (I’m including the NRI audience in this) is extremely segmented, and the market itself is fragmented with scores of producers and directors. For any one of them to 1) develop a story line and screenplay that speaks to economically and culturally diverse audiences, 2) identify actors and actresses that can do justice to that story, 3) amass sufficient resources, and 4) get the dubious blessing of the local and regional dons becomes logistically a near-Herculean feat. Interests and sensibilities differ so widely across these multiple audiences that very few movies seem to be able to span across them.

Isn’t it far easier—and cheaper—to take a formulaic story that guarantees a certain level of return from both urban and rural cinemas?

Ok, but who ISN'T a Rajnikanth fan? Seriously.

There are days when all I want to do is sit on my couch and watch old Tamil Rajnikanth films. Comfort food for the soul, I say. The guy is gimmicky but he sure knows how to spin a story.

I would prefer on some sort of flatland. As far as the time, I guess we'll have to see. My finals are done on Dec. 16 - if there's sexiness and rain involved, we may just have to make a trip to Australia.

We have to outsource rain-dancing to Australia? :(( Come down to Texas during the next hurricane, I assure you we have flatland and rain aplenty! :p

As long as it's warm out while we're dancing in the rain, you can start looking up tickets for me! Hooray!

As long as it's warm out while we're dancing in the rain, you can start looking up tickets for me! Hooray!

Aich...wait till summer, and you get all the warmth that you need. 'til then you gotta do your dancing in the snow up north. How's the rain scene up there anyways?

As long as it's warm out while we're dancing in the rain, you can start looking up tickets for me! Hooray!

Besides, what kinda dance do you prefer in the rain? The good ol' Bollywood wet sari Sridevi-ishtyle? Or care for some salsa? :))

I saw Paheli last night, and ran into ADS and Kunaal, though sadly I apparently missed some other Mutineers. I was also gratified to see Sepia Mutiny thanked on the Outreach projection before the film. Go Mutiny!

Saheli: ACK! I didn't see you - and I was with ads (and brimful.) Did you see SepiaMutiny's shoutout?

Dude - I was looking for the turban pictured above....where was it??? I felt cheated.

hi shahrokh i love verry much im wishing best for you . you best actor kiss youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

please shahrokh khan if you can reply my e-mail i want to see you one day i am absolutly in love wish you im from iranian pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee shahrokhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh reply my e-mail ok tanks byeeeeeeeeee kissssssssss youuuuuuuuuuuu

hi