Sigh...wish this'd happened earlier...too late for me to lighten up now :(

Naomi Wolf's book, while being clever does not even begin to address deeper issues. It stops at the realm of marketing. Neil Postman's book Technopoly is a better treatise (in my opinion) about the role of marketing in creating self doubt and anxiety and using that to sell products that promise utopia. Even with all education, when will consumers be able to see that marketing is really about manipulation of emotions? And hence best ignored.

And now Indian men, must join this self hate towards skin color.Shame!!!

What is this obsession with brownness?

When can we see ourselves as humans? Without focussing on skin color. Isnt all this related?

Sumita

I predict this topic will generate 100+ comments -- I'll check back in after the 50th post or so.

Timepass

(laughing at the 100 + comment)

I fell victim...Ha!!

Sumita

This kind of thing really saddens me. Being what many people consider 'dark', although I'm more of a milk chocolate complexion than dark chocolate, it offends me that people consciously or subconsciously make judgements about me because of my skin colour.

Luckily I escaped this idea being ingrained, as my parents never ever made any mention of me being dark-skinned as a child. Nor did they compare me to other fair skinned people even though my mother and her side of the family is very fair. Even bollywood films show the heroine as being very fairskinned (pretty much white!) while the hero usually has some pigment in him.

It feels absolutely awful to see this being marketed towards men now. It's sort of like....regression?

oh well, my mom always said she(and I) was lucky I wasn't born a girl, with my dark skin in particular. I guess that wouldn't apply anymore :-)

Has there ever been a time/place where dark skin has been considered more beautiful? Not that I know of...

Of course, razib has his explanations of this...

Hi Manish
It is Vikrum Sequeira not Vikram.

Tupac once ruminated on this issue: "the darker the skin, the deeper the roots."

Has there ever been a time/place where dark skin has been considered more beautiful? Not that I know of...

Africa ?

Also, dark skin amongst men (regardless of ethnic background) seems to be regarded as an attractive thing amongst the majority white population in the West these days, amonst some quarters anyway.

Honey, Baby, Sugar, Whitey?
Just to add to examples of 'fair' skin obsession; how many south asian cultures use equivalents for "white" as terms of endearment.

Aren't Rama and Krishna described as being dark.

Not sure, but has bollywood gone "fairer" and "fairer" in recent years. I am thinking of abhimaan with Amitabh and Jaya. They both seem brown in that. Or is perhaps just the film stock?

"the darker the skin, the deeper the roots."

Not sure, but has bollywood gone "fairer" and "fairer" in recent years

Yes, I've noticed that too. It particularly appears to have happened after the increasing exposure to the Western media (this is just an observation, not some kind of right-wing rant) -- Western films, music videos etc.

I've noticed that a lot of the "Saas-Bahu" TV serials on the desi satellite/cable channels are blatantly turning up the visual contrast too in order to make the actors & actresses extremely light-skinned. It's very noticeable sometimes.

Also, dark skin amongst men (regardless of ethnic background) seems to be regarded as an attractive thing amongst the majority white population in the West these days, amonst some quarters anyway.

Tupac once ruminated on this issue: "the darker the skin, the deeper the roots."

So perhaps blacker the berry, sweeter the juice is an example of how black is considered more beautiful...or just an excuse for hookin up with dark chicks...say my black friends.

maybe blackstar - definition, gives a better perspective of darkness/black in beauty and society

Has there ever been a time/place where dark skin has been considered more beautiful? Not that I know of...

The afrocentricity movelment in the US during the 70s; with slogans like "black is beautiful"

Ridiculous obsessions.

I recommend The Beauty Myth as essential reading for all teenaged girls. It's not exactly academic, but it's bare bones and hits home.

Funny - I would rather be a bit darker than fairer. I prefer my summer color to my winter one, it looks healthier, less pallid. [No, I don't tan, it just happens]

As an Indian who is largely indifferent to skin darkness, I can often scoop the beautiful dark-skinned Indian girls others find unattractive. So, go go fashion industry, works for me!

Also, being very light-skinned myself, I'm often the undeserving subject of adoration from an indian girl who thinks in this old-school way, making me twice the beneficiary of something I don't agree with. Although sometimes due to my skin color, the girl doesn't even believe I'm Hindu. Then I have to show them this free trident I got.

The blacker the berry the redder the cherry.

Any Desi chicks wanna hookup with a Short Fair and Hairy dude. I meet a 3rd of your expectation that aint bad.

Aren't Rama and Krishna described as being dark.

Not sure, but has bollywood gone "fairer" and "fairer" in recent years. I am thinking of abhimaan with Amitabh and Jaya. They both seem brown in that. Or is perhaps just the film stock?

Short Fair and Hairy dude.

Which of the following combos in women would you find more appealing? Rank them in descending order of preference:

Fat, Fair, Hairless
Slim, Fair, Hairy
Slim, Dark, Hairless

Really, argus, there should be 9 combinations. You're cheating us of infinite possibilities!

ha ha ha

Ms Ang,

Yeah, sure, I was trying to find him an even match.

To counter the privileging of paler skinned men I present to you the unapologetically dark-skinned naveen andrews

ding-dong.

Actually 8 combinations, sorry.

To counter the privileging of paler skinned men I present to you the unapologetically dark-skinned naveen andrews

ding-dong.

ding-dong indeed

Actually, there are 8 combos (= 2^3) -- two options combined three times. Where are our stats geeks?

1. Fat, Fair, Hairless
2. Fat, Dark, Hairless
3. Fat, Fair, Hairy
4. Fat, Dark, Hairy
5. Slim, Fair, Hairless
6. Slim, Dark, Hairless
7. Slim, Fair, Hairy
8. Slim, Dark, Hairy

*Now* let's discuss what we like -- it's a smorgasbord!

Timepass, I already corrected myself.

And, might I add, I was being sarcastic/humorous about the options preseented to us.

Does it have to be either Hairy or Hairless? How about some intermediate?

Add this to the combinations

Tall
Short

Somebody do the math plz

LOL. Now you have 16 possibities.

Ang,

Out of 16, which one would be your Pick

I'm from Kerala, and used to have no luck, but now when I go to parties, the girls think I am Punjabi!

That's it. I refuse to be commodified and reduced to an element in some combinatorial jigsaw puzzle.

Unless you include wheatish as an option :)

Considering the article was in regard to a male product, it should be an epicene list.

Then we could do some of the kama sutra equivalency arrangements i.e. horse man = deer woman

Ang,

Out of 16, which one would be your Pick

My answer is 17) None of the above. Well, maybe the only option I care about is "slim" but what I really mean is athletic. Even then it's a lesser priority; has more to do with not sitting on the couch and getting out and sweating every day and being healthy.

Back to the point - I don't think I care about light versus dark, but that may partly have to do with my upbringing off of the subcontient.

S

hort Fair and Hairy dude.

Which of the following combos in women would you find more appealing? Rank them in descending order of preference:

Fat, Fair, Hairless
Slim, Fair, Hairy
Slim, Dark, Hairless

Does it have to be either Hairy or Hairless? How about some intermediate?

metrics like hairs/cm_sq are needed for the entire body

My answer is 17) None of the above

I am sorry, I forgot to add None of the above to the 16, so now we have 17 options. Others can feel free to add their own parameters to the list.

Thanks in part to this increasingly X-rated diversion (shampooing carpets?!), we're approaching my earlier prediction in record time... keep 'em coming people!

And, the combinatorial possibilities are beginning to spiral out of control: short/tall, hair/intermediate/hairless, reshmi/non-reshmi julfen, fair/wheatish/dark... my head hurts.

re: darkness attractiveness. as i've said, there is a strong bias in cultures surveyed for fairer-than-median preference in females. this might be because of innate factors, environmental factors or a combination of both. probably the last in most cases, with the greater preference for fairer-than-normal cases tending towards an amplification of a small innate preference by socio-cultural factors. as for females, as i said, it is more ambiguous. in some cultures there is a strong association with high social status and light skin, i.e., japan and china and india (correcting for region, etc.). the data from europe is more confused though. extreme dipigmentation in humans tends toward "padeomorphism," that is, child-like appearence. so, the logic would be that extremely depigmented men would look youthfull, which is not always a good thing in cultures where male status and influence peaks in later years (for example, roman senators were traditionally supposed be well aged, around 40ish, though enfants terrible like pompey changed that). in short, be careful of one-size-fits-all answers.

all that pedantic babble doesn't obviate some realities

a) american browns making distinctions on color grounds in a white society seems ludicrous. we are all sand niggers. even if you can "pass" your nipples are still dark i'll bet, and that's the true test of "fairness" in this culture.

b) but people should prefer what they prefer. it'll work itself out. i have talked to dark skinned black women here in the pacific northwest who relocated from other parts of the country who say that they feel more attractive here because people view them as just unbracketed black, as opposed to "dark skinned" or "skillet blonde."

btw,

In contrast, in the U.S., tan once again became a wealth marker after agriculture was mechanized. And dark skin has historically been associated with masculinity in the U.S. because of the eroticization of African slaves. i don't know about this. there might be something to this, but i think it is less eroticization than bestialization. like i said, among whites, i think paleness that includes blondeness tends to look too childlike for many females. you know the old saying, 'girl, don't get wid a player whose prettier than you.'

btw, i've read all of naomi wolf's books, except for the end of promiscuities. you see, she's hot. or was :)

as for females, i meant males.

And, the combinatorial possibilities are beginning to spiral out of control: short/tall, hair/intermediate/hairless, reshmi/non-reshmi julfen, fair/wheatish/dark... my head hurts.

Don't worry, timepass, I'm sure some of our fickle parents have already made an exhaustive multiple choice list, with colour-meters and acceptable hair/cm2 as guides, alongside biodata reports. The hard work has already been done.

I'm sure some of our fickle parents have already made an exhaustive multiple choice list, with colour-meters and acceptable hair/cm2 as guides...

Oh, will someone please come out with a Pant-Own skin tone swatch for the parents.

oh, and dark skin in many parts of the world is almost certainly functionally constrained by environment. there is some evidence that humans did not evolve dark skin until we lost our fur about 2 million years ago (the fur part is inferred from the type of body louse we carry). one could hypothesize that it just happened to turn out that dark skin tends to correlate with low latitudes, but there are clear ways in which it looks like environmental selection as opposed to something like runaway selection. but, if a locus is not needed it tends to degrade and 'lose function' (kind like how whales lost their vestigal hindquarters). and of course, selection could operate in the other direction (the theory that light skin allows for easier vit D synthesis in cloudy weathers). here is post on my blog about skin color.

Oh, will someone please come out with a Pant-Own skin tone swatch for the parents.

BWA HA HA! Can you imagine your mom putting on her reading glasses and holding it up to some unsuspecting girl?!?? "Nah, baba, nah, pant-own swatch verifies you do not pass!"

This just in:

Female fertility linked to attractiveness:

I'm sure some of our fickle parents have already made an exhaustive multiple choice list, with colour-meters and acceptable hair/cm2 as guides...

Oh, will someone please come out with a Pant-Own skin tone swatch for the parents.

Then the moms could all get on eBay:

"My son is a #WT2053 skin shade with a 1600 SAT score. We also have a nice pueblo villa just north of the bay area with redwood and teak accents. My interior designer and I agree that a homebound girl between the shades of #VF0001 and #VF0007 would go well with the decor and the furniture and some of the Dresden ware in the living room too. Sluts need not apply"

The class dimension is interesting.

In India, there’s a big class divide between those tanned from being out in the sun all day vs. those who work indoors. That’s in addition to the obvious association between caste and intrinsic skin shade.

...makes me think of similar indicators that equate with attractiveness/sex appeal with wealth and aesthetically distance men and women from physical labour (i.e. signify that they don't have to use their hands and feet for work, or work outdoors)

* dark skin = (manual labour out in the sun)
* long nails, high heels = (I don't do manual labour; I work in an office)

Manish & Ang, I'm sure the parental Pantone system is in full force to classify eligibles for betas and betis... thankfully I didn't have to deal with that before I got married.

Razib, your comments are eye-opening... I've got to check out your blog. On my way now.

Although if brown folk in the US making color distinctions among other brown folk is silly -- which I think it is -- I've always thought it interesting that black folks used to describe each other in similar light/dark language, e.g. the "high yellows" and "reds" etc. I think by now those terms have become pretty antiquated but I'm surprised to still hear them from time to time.

Granted it's a different history altogether, but surely the thought process and compartmentalizing that happens is very similar across both brown and black peoples.

Female fertility linked to attractiveness:

argus, you might warn people that they are pointing to potential fertility (i.e., estrogen rates correlated positively with frequency of fertilizations per copulatory event), not the reality of total fertility rate or births per woman. last i checked, fatties have a lot of kiddies, for example....

And, the combinatorial possibilities are beginning to spiral out of control: short/tall, hair/intermediate/hairless, reshmi/non-reshmi julfen, fair/wheatish/dark... my head hurts.

presense or absense of uunt angutha also.

cameltoe? :)

I've always thought it interesting that black folks used to describe each other in similar light/dark language, e.g. the "high yellows" and "reds" etc. I think by now those terms have become pretty antiquated but I'm surprised to still hear them from time to time.

there still is a color divide amongst blacks. look at what w.e.b. dubois presented to the world as a the face of the "black" elite. but the difference with american browns is that i am skeptical there is any class correlation with skin color. browns (still) tend to skew toward more education, and my impression is that selection bias is as strong, or stronger, on modally darker skinned south indians as among medium skinned gujaratis and north indians. bangladeshis and pakistanis should cancel each other out (both are SES lower down, but at opposite ends of the color continuum). what i'm trying to say is that the black-faced dude at the temple might be a professor at MIT while the light-skinned punjabi from pakistan might be driving a taxi. or vice versa. so that dampens a lot of the tensions.

and those of us who fancy brown on white action of course live in a world where only the fetishizers note intrabrown color differences.

also, i might add, my friend john derbyshire, who used to work in financial software in NYC, once wondered if among indians there might be a positive correlation between intelligence and skin color among browns. that is, his experience was that the black boys were more adept code jockeys than their browner brethren. this was probably colored by the cresting of south indian techies in the 90s, but it makes you laugh :)

his experience was that the black boys were more adept code jockeys than their browner brethren.

That stinks that he would try to look for a correlation. Like you mentioned in your previous comment, it doesn't exist.

That stinks that he would try to look for a correlation.

i think what was going on was that they were getting a lot of south india H1bs, who were better than the mixed-group of native browns he saw in interview processes (if i recall correctly it was a middle-sized firm, so it probably couldn't get the best of the natives, but had an easier shot with the overseas). i doubt he was looking for jack. it was a trend he spotted, at least for a little while.

the best point was that we're all brown, i don't think we or should escape the fact we're desi. to me the people who think others don't think they are desi at the end of the day, i don't think so

What about 18) All of the above ? Does that count ?

Then the moms could all get on eBay:

"My son is a #WT2053 skin shade with a 1600 SAT score. We also have a nice pueblo villa just north of the bay area with redwood and teak accents. My interior designer and I agree that a homebound girl between the shades of #VF0001 and #VF0007 would go well with the decor and the furniture and some of the Dresden ware in the living room too. Sluts need not apply

Dude, for all we know they already have a similar algorithm, it could not be the furniture and the decor match they are looking for, but I can assure you that it is something really whacky.

Female fertility linked to attractiveness:

About the article, I think its more accurate to describe it as estrogen ='attractiveness'= fertility not just attractiveness=fertility. Its talking about (stereo)typically feminine features (eg. jawline) linked to estrogen. I would assume estrogen = hips, belly, tits, ass as well...so this idea of "fatties"=unattractive gets a wtf!? from me. or maybe I've just read it all wrong.

to me the people who think others don't think they are desi at the end of the day, i don't think so

i think you hit a grain of truth with this. i think people say this when they think you will be happy. i look pretty dam brown, but a few ladies have told me that i don't "look brown." i offer to show them my dark chocolate cock and then they retract their opinion (that's a joke). no dude has ever told me i don't look brown, cuz i don't think any dude has thought that it might make me like 'em more. no dude has ever told me that i'm not "really asian," cuz alleviating the perception of asian-emasculation-syndrome isn't a concern with dudes.

ultimately, a lot of it has to do with who the ubervolk of the day are. i remember reading some funny shit about bengalis bragging about eastern asian ancestry after the russo-japanese war (when japan kicked the shit out of russia and the white nations browned out with shock). i read this via a quote from a chitpavan brahmin who was pissed that the "black bengalis" had dropped their balls and started swaggering (no doubt this dude was pissed that his "aryan brothers" had their teeth kicked in). when our kids are learning mandarin in their cram schools i suspect browns will rediscover their "asian" heritage and cultural commonalities and no longer market their black asses as "white people with dark skins."

i think people say this when they think you will be happy.

Actually, it's kind of insulting. Even if it is just that they don't know any better.

and really who cares about tall, dark and hairy or any other possibilities... give me Smart, Funny, and Not-A-Momma's-Boy, anyday!!!

Any guy who would spend money on fade-cream probably spends more time in the bathroom than me, and that's a major no-no.

razib - I thought obesity was linked to infertility in different ways, for instance obesity in polycystic ovarian disease or peripheral conversion of estrogen to testosterone in fatty tissue with androgenization leading to abnormal menses, etc.

I dunno. I am laughing so hard at some of the comments. You people....

Chris Tucker: The older the berry the sweeter the juice..

Ice Cube: No, man! It's the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice.

Chris Tucker: (pauses and thinks) yeah, well she black as a muthafucker, too...

razib - I thought obesity was linked to infertility in different ways, for instance obesity in polycystic ovarian disease or peripheral conversion of estrogen to testosterone in fatty tissue with androgenization leading to abnormal menses, etc.

Very good and very true. Fat does not equal fertile, by any stretch of the imagination, especially when there's excess testosterone caused by hormone > *insulin* instabiities (or the metabolic syndrome which I think is a better name than polycystic). But then again, a curvy girl with full hips, and chest, and small waist (all the stuff that sometimes corresponds with estrogen) is considered fat by today's vestern sad sad sick standards.

You must be doctor-ni? Can I give you Pant-Own test? For my brother?

I'm a dermatopathologist, so I barely count. And I probably messed up in my last comment, which is why I stay away from commenting on medical things in posts - my area is so narrow and I've forgotten a lot of basic things that are unrelated to my field.

Good point Ang, our definition of obesity has changed. Marilyn Monroe would be considered fat these days, and I shudder to think what our current society would have done to her beauty. She would look like all the other skeletons slinking down the catwalk. Ugh! What's a Pant-Own test? Or should I stay away from that?

Razib: agree with you that class doesn't factor into brown folk's perception of skin tone -- among 2nd generation diasporic desis, I'd argue. Class definitely does factor into how our parents' and grandparents' generations -- in India and around the world -- put gora-ness on a pedestal. We call it the caste system, dating back to the precolonial days of the Laws of Manu etc.

By the way, I'm not sure what troubles me more -- whether the One People profile of you is hyperbole -- or whether it's even remotely true. Not meant as a personal critique of you, I'm just wondering if there's a grain of truth in any of it.

While I'm sorry to see what this specific product implies (dark brown = bad, light brown = good), I must admit it gives me a perverse pleasure to see the increase in "beauty" products and magazines marketed at guys.

I think it's high time that you boys have a taste of what your mothers, sisters and girlfriends have had to (and still have to) endure. It's worse now than ever and I'm glad to see that maybe one day soon the playing field will be level and we'll all be equally dissatified with our looks and insecure as we reach for the new and improved depillatory/skim creme/etc/etc/etc.

Whoo hoo!

Ugh! What's a Pant-Own test?

The famous brown parent pantone test.

And more here.

Scary is right!

Can we get this back to ogling pictures of Naveen Andrews please?

In that spirit:
1. Ding.

and

2. Dong.

desi nole,

What about 18) All of the above ? Does that count ?

hell yes it counts. in fact it's the only honorable answer.

shades of digital underground...

peace

Shah Rukh Khan? The darkest hero to ever rule Bollywood?

maybe blackstar - definition, gives a better perspective of darkness/black in beauty and society

"Brown Skin Lady" by Blackstar (Talib Kweli and Mos Def) is lyrically among the best verses dedicated to darker-skinned women.

lol. Interesting that in a thread about beauty ideals that put pressures on men we're talking a lot about women's attractiveness (my own Naveen Andrews ogling aside). Even within critiques that mock the ridiculousness of ideas about what is beautiful, its women and women’s bodies that are the subject of attention. Men’s bodies/faces just aren't sexualized and objectified the way women’s bodies are* at the moment...I'm not saying that if men faced the same daily bullshit this would be a positive development...just pointing out the differences.

Also,

...a dark-skinned college boy relegated to the back seat...

Relegated to the back seat because of your dark complexion? (my irony sensors are going off at this in light of Ms. Rosa Park's recent passing)...

*Men, of course face entirely different set of gendered pressures.

More from the Beeb link:

Editor of men's magazine, Man's World, Jerry Pinto, says most dark-skinned men are as insecure as women and go to equal lengths, albeit secretly, to achieve lighter skin.
"I don't think men share this notion of tall dark and handsome," he says. "In India, it's tall, fair and handsome. A look at the matrimonial section, which is a very good way of seeing how men look at themselves, there's not one guy who admits to being dark and attractive, they just say we are wheatish and fair.
"So there is just not one dark-skinned person in this country, they are all rolling wheat fields of masculinity."
Prof Shallini Bharat, a socio-psychologist with the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, believes this complex is a result of the country's history.
"India's rulers have always been fair, be it the Aryans in the early centuries or Europeans in later years. Fairness is equated with superiority, power and influence, therefore the preference for lighter skin."

"wheat fields of masculinity" - nice ;)

As for the dear professor's comments, anyone besides me wish she'd shutthef*ckup? India's rulers have always been fair? (rhetorical, I'm not asking)

IF desis do equate fairness to superiority, isn't it about time to get over it? And IF she's right, then maybe someone should study India's shallow-ness complex..

I'm just wondering if there's a grain of truth in any of it.

there is always an undigested piece of grain in a pile of shit. just dig deep.

oh, and re: the people of size,

1) i'm talkin' clinically obese, not chunky/chubby.

2) who cares of they die early and have a higher frequency of fertility problems? TFR for native born americans is lower than 2. fecundity is a matter of will and inclination, not biology, today.

3) the stuff i saw in that vein might be an artifact of higher obesity among minority groups with higher fertility (blacks, latinos). don't know.

why isnt bronzer or those fake tanners this controversial

why isnt bronzer or those fake tanners this controversial

As a dark-skinned vixen myslef I've always been amused by my white friends with their mystic tans and sunworshipping and the once a year expirience I have of some post-vacation co-worker putting their arm against mine and saying very proudly "look I'm almost as dark as you!". Contrast this with a cousin's wedding I attended in SL where the make-up artist covered my face in (very noticably) lighter powder making me look like some horrid ghost in all the bloody photos. This is is not to say that the majority in North America are free of the bias towards lighter skin that characterizes desi communities (often there are also issues of fetishizing dark skin as 'exotic' rather than embarcing it as beautiful on its own terms)...but I digress

This is is not to say that the majority in North America are free of the bias towards lighter skin that characterizes desi communities (often there are also issues of fetishizing dark skin as 'exotic' rather than embarcing it as beautiful on its own terms)...but I digress

dark is OK if you are white. the bias isn't the same as among browns at all, salient "darkness" is simply a discontinuous measure that separates white from non-white. with-white measures of darkness don't have as negative a conotation (if at all). can you imagine a sorority girl telling her sister, "jen, you are looking dark today, don't spend as much time out in the sun!" as opposed to: "i need to get some sun." i hear brown people diss on others (usually ladies) by saying "too bad she's dark," all the time (or at least amongst my parents and in bangladesh). i have heard this amongst other asian groups, and among blacks. perhaps because my ass is brown whites don't say this around me, but i suspect it is actually just that they don't focus on skin color since theyz all be white. usually it's "too bad she's fat/skank/dumb/etc." other dissable traits loom way larger.

now, where dark vs. non-dark matters amongst whites is hair color. a good dye job is a way that a so-so woman can climb up the pecking order, or at least turn themselves into a 'monet.' on the other hand, i think in some ways a woman with extremely exceptional bone structure is better being dark haired, because bright blonde hair might distract from focusing on salient facial features.

p.s. the non-white individual casting aspersions at a dark other individual is usually somehow less than stellar in personal characteristics in my experience. i.e., the wider the ass of the light-skinned chick or procine the features the more likely she will be to pull a color card out. you can generalize this further in that if individual x casts aspersions at y based on a phenotypic or group metric (i.e., "they're dark." "they're cambodian." etc. etc.), individual x is usually not an "alpha" with their own group, and are quite likely to be marginal members. a person of supreme confidence and conceit should simply say, "too bad they aren't me."

procine is porcine.

IF desis do equate fairness to superiority

I am seeing a lot of blanket statement about "desi" perception of fairness and superiority. Why did I enclose the "desi" in quotes? Glad you asked.

You see, the general perception about "desis" here is quite archaic. They are being portrayed as relics from an ancient past that does not exist anymore. I do not think "desis" consider fairness as a superior trait because it somehow in some convoluted way connects to the caste system (which does not have as much relevance in educated folks living in the metro areas these days), or exposure to sunlight due to menial labor or the fact that India has been ruled by fair folks in several periods in its history.

The modern "desi" simply subscribes to the notion of attractiveness as defined by the dominant civilization of today.

As you can see, several posters craftily let it slip that they happen to be quite fair. In other words, we are all equally guilty of this obsession. If we happen to be on the right side of the spectrum, we take advantage of it, albeit as diplomatically as possible. If we are unfortunate enough to fall on the wrong side of the spectrum, we become flag bearers of the anti-colorism movement.

If we are unfortunate enough to fall on the wrong side of the spectrum, we become flag bearers of the anti-colorism movement.

wrong side of the spectrum ?!?

so what "dominant civilization" has defined attractiveness for you today, argus?

Do tell, I'm all agog.

Ms Cicatrix/Anjali,

First of all let me ask you, why must you use such a horrible handle? You have a beautiful name.

Secondly, ... as a matter of fact, I lost my chain of thought. But you do get the essence of what I meant, don't you?

argus_nj,

as i have noted multiple times, the preference for faireness predates european hegemony. and, if you read on blondes, you will see there has been some variation in preference for faireness in europeans themselves (i.e., sometimes blondeness is equated with virginity, sometimes with harlotry).

you are right about people letting slip about their fairness :) "i'm not kala, not that there's anything wrong with it...."

p.s. the non-white individual casting aspersions at a dark other individual is usually somehow less than stellar in personal characteristics in my experience. i.e., the wider the ass of the light-skinned chick or procine the features the more likely she will be to pull a color card out. you can generalize this further in that if individual x casts aspersions at y based on a phenotypic or group metric (i.e., "they're dark." "they're cambodian." etc. etc.), individual x is usually not an "alpha" with their own group, and are quite likely to be marginal members. a person of supreme confidence and conceit should simply say, "too bad they aren't me."

I have to agree with Razib the atheist on this one. Yeah, I've definitely seen this phenomenon. Marginal members of groups do tend to pull out the color card--it totally has to do with insecurity/lack of self-confidence. I used to get picked on by over-weight chicks in grade school, because of this. They were insecure and angry because they were marginal members of their society.

As you can see, several posters craftily let it slip that they happen to be quite fair.

ROFLMAO!

i used to know a guy in college who used to specifically go outta his way to walk in the shade so he wouldn't get darker...

hehe... giggle.. chuckle... i need to send this to him... ;)

I hope I can buy this at my local Sam's Club. Cant wait for the store to open today.

i used to know an indian guy in college who used to specifically go outta his way to walk in the shade so he wouldn't get darker...

hehe... giggle.. chuckle... i need to send this to him... ;)

You know what, guys -- the whole concept of "Fair & Handsome" skin-lightening for aesthetic reasons isn't a new idea for Indian men. A lot of men back in India, especially amongst the older generation, rub white talcum powder all over their faces in order to "freshen up" when going out, with the actual intention of making their faces look lighter.

The modern "desi" simply subscribes to the notion of attractiveness as defined by the dominant civilization of today

I'll echo cicatrix here -- "dominant" is code for "Western", I assume?

And I don't think there's any archaic perception of 'desis' operating here -- the fact is that notions of fair/dark have been around in the subcontinent for centuries. "Fair and Handsome" and "Fair and Lovely" and their ilk just productize these notions and feed the public's insecurity about skin color.

Perhaps the "modern" desi -- signifying educated, urban, young, professional, Westernized etc. -- doesn't give a damn about skin color. More power to them. But for every modern desi I encounter in India or outside of India, there are those who outwardly or inwardly subscribe to the fair/dark continuum. Whether that makes them buy a fraudulent skin-lightening product, or eliminate a potential mate due to their undesirability based on the 'Pantone' scale, is a matter of personal choice, though it's not one that I support.

Anyway you look at it, it's a sad state of affairs. It's almost as though the makers of "Fair and Lovely" have cynically decided to expand into the male vanity market since they've milked the female "cash cow" segment to death.

there is always an undigested piece of grain in a pile of shit. just dig deep.

Newamul/Razib: The mere fact that you linked to the pile of shit is all the grain that's needed. Thank you.

We're approaching 100 posts... just a few more...

I'll echo cicatrix here -- "dominant" is code for "Western", I assume?

Is there any doubt about which culture is dominant??
- Look at which calender you use
- Desis of Hindu, Jain and Islamic religion dont even know which year this is according to their culture.
- Which week do you follow?? Do you assume a day off on "Sunday" .. well thats western because its in the 10 commandments.

- My above points dont apply to Desis of Christian faith. But the following do.

- Who decides which clothes are considered "fashionable" ???
I could go on ....

If one answers above questions, they will not have to pretend that there is no dominant culture.

Chick pea: I used to work with someone just like not to long ago... I thought it was the strangest thing in the world! I wonder if this is common or if we are talking about the same person. I don't know which would be stranger!

Argus’s comment is well-taken, so I’ll echo it. It is a bit too derivative relying solely on anthropological reasons in explaining the shallow colour based Manichaeanism that is so prevalent amongst desis. The dominant culture and aggrandizement of “european-ness” has a much more immediate impact, especially in a heterogeneous, pressure-to-assimilate society where there exists a dominant culture of commercial beauty. Being a new immigrant to a mostly white suburb certainly did twist my ego a bit, both in terms of looking different and what my expectations of beauty became. I think argus deservedly distinguished this concept from being the “dark one” in the family.
As many of you alluded to, it really is an individual action to move on beyond this obsession.

I personally like my men with some color in them - but I don't discriminate, I regulate every shade of that @$$.

I did always find it interesting that fairness wasn't always kind of a preference, but straight equated to beauty. I know people who *ahem* don't have the nicest facial features, but they're fair skinned so I hear the aunties remark, "Oh look she's so pretty!" or "He's so fair - he's so handsome!" Or in my own specific case, the ideal of beauty for Punjabi women or South Asian women in general tends to be a woman who is tall, skinny, and fair-skinned. The aunties look at me and go, ".....Well at least she's fair." I mean, I think I'm a cutie, but I found something seriously disturbing in the aunties thinking that my fair skin was what made me attractive. I was like, "Bite me, Aunty - it's my fatty bedunkadunk that makes the boys come running, not my gora gora rang... shiiiiit...." I see the same with men around me as well. Some of those in my circle of friends currently searching for life-partners actually have fair skin as a solid requirement- I find it astounding. I guess that just leaves more Hershey-Chocolate-colored South Asian boytoys for me, innit.

Sweet Force,

You have titillated mutineers no end. We demand you post your pic.

Thanks.

fuerza,

why not go all the way black?

all,

interesting that in 100 comments this thread hasn't brought up desi/black relationships. (if it did, my bad. it's a long-ass thread).

and, i can't be arsed to search, but has there been a conversation here in recent weeks or months on that topic? i'd love to have it.

o admins, i humbly beseech you.

peace

colorism in the desi community is a problem even among those who are liberal/enlightened

i'll let it slip i'm on the fair side and yeah, i'm anti-colorism like a mofo. colorism is a pretty bad thing

we should like who we are. everyone should, no matter what their ethnicity

i agree, brown-skin lady is a pretty good song

sometimes i listen to that song and it makes me feel so good. instead of trying to pass, we should help each other create feelings like that song. create art, music, literature, just talk with each other in a way that makes us feel good to be who we are

FD- that was poetry, yo.

Siddhartha M, my friend:

I have already, as you suggested, "gone all the way black". The topic was specifically discussing South Asian men, so that's what I limited my comment to. I guess I should have specified that my comments were generally based on experiences within the South Asian community but also applied to experiences with friends and acquaintances from other ethnic backgrounds. The same issues with standards of beauty based on how dark/light someone's skin is exist in the African-American and Latino-American communities as well.

Not looking to faith and other things, if we're speaking strictly superficially, I don't discriminate, I regulate every shade of that @$$.

in general i don't think that just because a woman makes a comment about relationships does not mean we can ask her what her standards for relationships are. it just leads to a double standard by which we (as men) become too invested in the choices women are making, when its not our business in the first place. if a woman wants to be against or for anything, maybe lets not go the next step and ask her what that means in terms of who is prefers to have relationships with

also, i just don't want to be knowing where anyone has "gone"...it just ain't my business and i'd like to just not know!

don't discriminate, I regulate every shade of that @$$.

Gee Golly!
I mean Oochie Wally!

Ok so this is slightly off the specific topic, but still within the realms of breaking away from or creating your own standards of beauty. Anyhow, I saw this and had to post it somewhere.

They love some junk in that trunk

I mean, I think I'm a cutie

I assume it must be based on certain attributes?

but I found something seriously disturbing in the aunties thinking that my fair skin was what made me attractive.

Okay, so the aunties believe one of the attribute is skin color.

I don't see what's the difference. Attractiveness must be based on something. Skin color happens to be one of them. Different people assign different weights to different attributes, molded by cultural/sociological expectations.

It is just that the aunties are perhaps less of a hypocrite than we are.

interesting that in 100 comments this thread hasn't brought up desi/black relationships.

Besharam badmash! That sort of Mississippi Masala thing does not happen to children who were brought up in good households! It is only those who are confused or watch too many movies or televisions!

hey now, isn't there is a difference between brownland and american browns on this topic??? i knew a girl who blackened herself regularly by playing field hockey and tanning just to spite her old-skool mamma. it was her "shit filter" for dumbass brown dudes who cared about color...i'm just saying, the older generations might preoccupy with color, but i don't necessarily think that people in american generation brown are hypocritical, i to to some extent it really does seem kind of ridiculous to make distinctions based on brown shades when you see pale shit like this walking around.

fuerza,

i hear you, and i am 100% in support of both your theory and your method. i'm an every-shader too. (or i was before i retired from the game. but one can still appreciate.)

i'm just trying to throw a little something into the mix. i'd like to see a black/desi relationship thread here, and am humbly suggesting our fearless leaders find an excuse to start one.

peace

although to be fair, that chick dated all sorts, black to white. so mebee brown americans dude make distinctions, i don't know. anything between milanese and mbuti is the same to me. if it ain't flax....

Fuerza Dulce: Wow, I can't believe those girls are being force fed so they will be fat. I guess the same amount of pain happens here in the states when people starve themselves.

argus_nj: Skin color is a huge attribute, aunties are definately conscious about it where as I feel 2nd gen desi are more subconscious about it

It is just that the aunties are perhaps less of a hypocrite than we are.

in my experience american browns have their own reasons for liking fair skin, those that do. its a mix between old school indian and new school american factors

Different people have different tastes and different things that they find attractive. No problem. But when an aunty looks to someone like me and says, "well at least she's fair" - they're basically saying that I am, or whoever they're talking about is, otherwise unattractive and my fair skin is my one "saving grace". They're discounting any other pros, or cons, for that matter, that a person might have. Someone in an earlier post put up all different kinds of combinations that we're classified as - short, slim, fair, for ex. What I've personally seen is that fairness tends to be the trump card. I still find it disturbing.

razib,

flax needs love too.

ennis,

that's what i'm talking about! :)

i'm reminded of a story. we used to live in france when i was growing up. my grandmother visited from calcutta, and rode the metro. there was an african brother sitting near her, and she was mesmerized and nervous. finally she turned to us and whispered "boro boro haath!" (big big hands!)

i attended a black/desi wedding in an orange county backyard some years ago, it was priceless.

peace

What I've personally seen is that fairness tends to be the trump card.

... Among the aunties. And they still believe in dowries, so how is it relevant to the 2nd gen?

All this talk about "fairness" reminds me a of a friend whos parents tried to arrange him. One of thier criteria was fairness, and they obessed over it. What funny is my friend started dating some white girl and when his parents flipped, he said "At least she is very fair"
hahaha.

Funny, but interesting right? There must be an optimal level of fairness then right?

flax needs love too.

hey i represent.

There must be an optimal level of fairness then right?

someone whip about the modal american brown utility function please with various traits. i'm skeptical color will be a big component among american browns.

"Brown Skin Lady" by Blackstar (Talib Kweli and Mos Def) is lyrically among the best verses dedicated to darker-skinned women.

i agree, brown-skin lady is a pretty good song

Lets not forget Ms. India.Aire's ode to brown skin:

Brown skin, you know I love your brown skin
I cant tell where yours begins, I cant tell where mine ends
Brown skin, up against my brown skin...

razib,

i'm not so sure that among american browns color is not important

for example if you look at the woman desi guys really go crazy for, a lot of times that woman is pretty fair-skinned

... Among the aunties. And they still believe in dowries, so how is it relevant to the 2nd gen?

Even though it may not be a part of my specific belief system or yours, those aunties are still a part of a community that many of us still have some sort of connection with. Some of those aunties are just aunties and some of those aunties are our mummies. We still end up coming across those viewpoints, and it doesn't hurt to discuss them and try to understand them, if nothing else, so we know how to combat them if we so wish.

to bridge backwards, off Ovaltine's comment:

a dear friend always dated non-desi girls, much to auntie & uncle's dismay. When he did settle down to get lowe-married it was with a desi girl, but she was desi in ethnicity and not so much of the "seedhi homely" variety. (smoked, drank, didn't study B-com, dropped out of college, etc)And he told his parents, "hey, at least she's Indian..." ;)

Hmm, so 'craftily letting it slip' that you are fair is somehow a negative thing, while letting slip that you are not fair (in this dumb fair-non-fair spectrum) is amusing to some, eh? How do you know being fair as designated by some old-skool type is such a dominant and wonderful experience, eh? I'm fair by old-skool Indian standards, and as a kid, I hated it. Old aunties (not my parents, who are cool about that thing and don't care and raised me the same way) would mention it, but to my American friends I was plenty brown. So, growing up in the 70/80s in the midwest I got it both ways - brown around the whites, not-too brown around the browns. I have thin, fine hair that breaks easily and I wear it short. I used to crave the thick, dark, long hair I saw on most other desi girls I knew. I always felt uncomfortable about my looks - I didn't think I looked 'right' in either the dominant or minority culture. I'm older and hopefully more mature, but it's odd that it still hurts to hear comments like that :)

It happened again yesterday, like it always happens. Someone asks me my name, I tell it, and they say: you don't look Indian. I have never not gotten this comment from non-desis (my grammar stinks, deal with it). I know they don't mean anything by it, but I get tired of constantly explaining - there are a wide variety of 'types' from India, etc, etc.

And the real news is this: more than 100 comments and nothing about Vinod's pictures? I'm disappointed. Cicatrix or ANNA post a picture and it's non-stop objectification. Get moving, ladies.

.ca:

India Arie's Brown Skin is one of my favorite songs on my "sexy song" list.

because you seem like a soulful woman, i wonder what other songs are on that list (seriously)

My first sentence in my last comment makes no sense. Even I have no idea what I meant.

I got a lot of what you wrote MD and it makes sense to me. it added a new perspective

More crucial lyrics:

Watch these rap niggaz get all up in your guts French-vanilla, butter-pecan, chocolate-deluxe Even caramel sundaes is gettin touched And scooped in my ice cream truck, Wu tears it up

(...)

One love to my chocolate deluxes, keep your nails done
and your wigs tight, word up
One love to my butter-pecan Ricans for calling me papi
That's for real
One love to caramel sundaes, with the cherries on top
Yeah
And big up to my french vanillas

Raekwon, "Ice Cream," off the classic "Only Built 4 Cuban Linx" album.

peace

Haven't studies shown that facial and structural symmetry is what people are attracted to, rather than skin color?

Mom: You have put some weight on, it doesn't look good.

3 months later after beer gut melts away.

Mom: Your sister and aunt say you've become darker, it doesn't look good.

GujuDude: First you tell me to lose weight, so I started working out on the beach. So I got a little more tan.

Mom: Start working out indoors.

GujuDude: I like doing beach bootcamp workouts, it's very effective.

Mom: But you are darker now.

GujuDude: I can't win.

And the real news is this: more than 100 comments and nothing about Vinod's pictures? I'm disappointed. Cicatrix or ANNA post a picture and it's non-stop objectification. Get moving, ladies.

I’ll break the ice and get it started…I think that’s a great oh-so-proper-but-with-undertones-of-edginess picture. Where can I get me some of that!

siddhartha m

As a woman, these sorts of lyrics always make me uncomfortable. Oh, I'm fine with it, and there's nothing wrong with expressing feelings this way. It is colorful, and even poetic. But somehow, I just can't get my mind around it. I still feel uncomfortable. But I can barely read Henry Miller, so I guess I'm just prudish.

oh, and by colorful, of course, I mean the language is colorful! I give up :) When the culture politicizes everything, nothing feels natural, anymore....

It is Vikrum Sequeira not Vikram.

Thanks, fixed.

md,

sure, it's only one of the various seduction models out there, and perhaps not the most elegant (or sound from a gender perspective). it's not what i'd say if i were trying to get with you.

(btw, i still owe you a reply on that other note. i've been crunched w/ deadlines and distracted, but i've not forgotten.)

but i'm posting it as further text about the appreciation, or otherwise, of
different skin tones.

peace

I officially protest the ugly stereotyping of "aunties" on this site as fat, shrill, overbearing backward-thinking yentas. Did you all grow up in one of those groan-inducing 3rd rate "desi" flicks? For shame!

sir c,

"aunties" doesn't mean aunties, just like "white people" doesn't mean white people.

peace

Who said fat and shrill?

And yentas can be fun too. Except when they're telling you not to play sports outside so you don't get dark.

Ms Fuerza Dulce,

But when an aunty looks to someone like me and says, "well at least she's fair" - they're basically saying that I am, or whoever they're talking about is, otherwise unattractive and my fair skin is my one "saving grace".

Let's take another example - a darkish brown woman with average facial features but with a killer body. Now, a lot of american dude's here would find her attractive. So, her killer figure becomes a savings grace too. That's precisely my point - different people attach different weights to the various atributes of attractiveness. But none of them is any more despicable than the other.

I think among american browns, the anti-colorism sentiments stem from a rejection of racism. People from brownland do not have to appear PC as they do not have the danger of appearing racist since racism against blacks is not a prominent topic in India.

There are a lot of things the brown aunties are prejudiced about which is questionable but I will give them some latitude for preference for fair skin.

There are some other dudes that made some insinuations. I will address them later.

Also...The following is from this article.

Health Concerns Over Lightening Grow

The awareness that whitening products can damage the skin is growing.... Even Gupta, a steadfast bleacher for over 15 years, admits the danger. "Two years back it was quite popular," she said. "But now I think they're focusing on less bleaching. It could harm the skin if it's strong."

Battling for Public Opinion
Betting that the fairness craze in India will continue, American and European companies are fighting for their market share. Popular western brands Avon, L'Oreal, Lancome, Yves Saint-Laurent, Clinique, Elizabeth Arden, Estee Lauder, and Revlon, offer whitening products.

As for what Manish noted:

What I've personally seen is that fairness tends to be the trump card. ... Among the aunties. And they still believe in dowries, so how is it relevant to the 2nd gen?

True. It generally gets a shrug or eye-roll from the second gen women that I know, including myself. But its certainly still there, and not just among the aunty set. When we were in grade 1 we used to put our hands together and order ourselves according to lightness...its in our heads even as kids.

Also, just wanted to mention that Europe (esp. historically) is still a site of 'fairness' cultural obsession; The most striking example of this cultural obsession being the porcelain skinned Snow White and her 'evil stepmother' obsessed with "who's the fairest of them all".

Also,there's this book: Fair Women, Dark Men: The Forgotten Roots of Racial Prejudice

I've yet to read it and I'm weary about the biological predisposition part of the analysis...but this part of it looks interesting: In Fair Women, Dark Men, Peter Frost presents the evidence that there has been a cultural preference in virtually all human societies for fair complexions, especially in women, long before black slavery, European colonialism , and what we now call "color prejudice."

Hmmm.

There you go again, Fuerza. I speak for the voiceless. I will soon pen an unironic ode to all unfairly maligned aunties out there...It will feature not only the freshest lyrics but also the choicest beats (and not MIA-type CollecoVision junior varsity beats). Keep ya' head up ladiez..this one's going out to you!

damng what an awesome book recommendation

Sigh, I've always found dark-skinned Southie girls attractive. And Chinese girls too.

Unfortunately, my short hairy balding (and...um...wheatish) Bong physique is quite unhelpful.

I shall continue crying into my pillow :'(

I'm fair by old-skool Indian standards,

An example of a crafty splip.

and as a kid, I hated it

Who said fat and shrill?

And yentas can be fun too. Except when they're telling you not to play sports outside so you don't get dark.

Sirc:

I was joking. I love the aunties, and the aunties love me. But that doesn't mean that we all have to agree with each other all the time. The fair skin thing is something me and the aunties always butt heads on.

i like korean girls

How to get 100+ comments on SM in under 24 hours:

1. Start with a brown complexion related topic
2. Go on a highly entertaining tangent about hairiness, wheatish tones, and big booties
3. Throw in some rap lyrics
4. Compare aunties to yentas

Maybe add some choice pics of SM bloggers. Then go back to (1) and repeat.

140+ posts and counting... (to the tune of NWA's '100 Miles and Running')

argus_nj I

t's not a crafty slip if it's the whole point of a comment. I'm sorry, but are we supposed to be honest here, or not? Or were you there in small town Iowa in the 70s and 80s with me to know what it was like?

Never mind. I have to take one of my periodic breaks from Sepia Mutiny now. Thanks for being so understanding.

Haven't studies shown that facial and structural symmetry is what people are attracted to, rather than skin color?

Gujudude- i have heard this comment before, and am genuinely curious about this thing they call facial symmetry.
i havent found anyone whose face was assymetric- unless you mean symm. along the x-axis too- which would make laloo a sex god? can you point me to the study, wld like to know if they take other things into account.thanks!

HA! I just actually read the rest of this post. (Sorry, Manish, I've been kind of crushed by Diwali, etc..)

Great picture of Vinod. :-) That's one smooth operator. :-)

I think most people have a particular shade they look best at, and that shade can vary across the entire absolute spectrum. But few people look good in two very different shades. So instead of these peels and whatever, which are more than likely going to make you look unnaturally pale and dry-skinned, you're best off investing in some good SPF and a hat, drinking lots of water, and otherwise sticking to your natural tone. Healthy dark skin is a lot more beautiful than dry, unevenly peeled light skin.

That said, I hope all our brown brothers and sisters won't skimp on the spf cream and hats. Someone once made fun of me in a park for coating my nose, "what, you afraid of getting dark?" implying that it was a self-esteem problem. Nooooo. Just because we don't usually burn, that doesn't mean the sun does no damage at all. And it only takes one serious burn to dramatically increase your chances of skin cancer and related problems.

Oh, and thanks for the replies to my comments, siddhartha m. I appreciate it.

And I'll stereotype the 'aunties' plenty. Some of them made my life hell in an earlier incarnation.....(she says cryptically....)

i like korean girls

and am genuinely curious about this thing they call facial symmetry.

Google pulled up several articles on this.

Wikipedia has some stuff on it too.

Sorry if I'm repetitive (didn't get through all the comments). But I think we need to address the inclusion of men into this beauty myth and its impact on our social behaviors. Women have continually been subjected to the rituals of beautification - eyebrow plucking, leg waxing, skin whitening and applying our daily round of makeup. The big question “why do we do all of this”? To look better for a man, to get a better husband, because it is demanded of us?

Is it so bad to include men into this beauty myth? Will their inclusion eventually reduce (in the far far future) the demands and burden on women?

I for one do not support the skin whitening industry but do support making the same demands on the men in my life as they make on me.

CBCD:
This is because men are the pursuers and attracted by what they see (generally speaking), ergo women want to make themselves look better.

But it makes sense, right? but I think given in any population/race, the average female more attactive than the average male.

"A woman's body is a work of art. A man's body is utilitarian. It's for gettin' around. Kinda like a Jeep."

— Elaine on Seinfeld, on why men shouldn't walk around naked

Administrators,

Is it possible to re-open the Manoj Shyamalan thread? I saw some very disparaging remarks there addressed to me and would like to respond to them. I pledge to stick to my non-abuse policy, as I always do.

Thanks.

I think the launch of the skin whitening cream for men shows that women are also demanding attractiveness in their mates. Women (often) may not be the pursuers however they do choose between the men who are pursuing them. And in an ever changing world were women no longer need to depend on a man for their livelihood, many other factors, previously less important, are gaining ground.

The question I pose is how will this impact what we require of women today? Will men start beautifying themselves or require less from women because they realize the time and effort that goes into the whole process. Will this trend advance our society and break us from the beauty myth?

The question I pose is how will this impact what we require of women today?

Which one would you personally prefer, women becoming more demanding (and men obliging them) or men becoming less demanding?

Everyone becoming less demanding

Everyone becoming less demanding

Good. So you basically want the physical attractiveness factor struck off from the list of attributes in a mate-selection process.

The problem is, people who are very attractive may not want this as it makes them more competitive. Needless to say you and I alone can not convince them.

How does physical attractiveness disappear? Do you really believe that beauty products alone make us attractive?

I’m discussing buying the beauty myth and all the products and attitudes attached to it. These things enhance our beauty not create it.

Do you really believe that beauty products alone make us attractive?

I am trying to analyze the underlying reason for people wanting to try beauty products, which happens to be that in the mate-selection process attractiveness plays a key role.

My question was specifically, given a choice, would you rather the mate-selection process did not include physical attractiveness?

porcelain skinned Snow White

who had black hair. when someone has the last name "black" or "schwartz," it usually referred to hair color. so it is more nuanced, and the brown categories don't always map over.

also, this is not monotonic. people need to keep the distribution in mind. my parents, especially my mom, is skin focused (though she isn't fat), but her beauty ideals are clearly people like jordanna brewster (in that she will note how beautiful she is if she sees her on TV). her opinions about blondes are less than flattering. so poor momma, you don't have get taste, cuz you don't have mine....

i will repeat it one more time: a small initial innate preference can be socially amplified. also, you might know that ethologist lee dugatkin has done research with female guppies, who tend to prefer bright males. if you set up an exp. and you have dummy dull males (artificial look-alike) being selected by dummy females, and have normal females watch, normal females will start to pick the dummy males, but only to an extent. that is, the heuristic: do what others do, has strong, but there is an innate parameter of "go for the bright!" that can overrule it if you push the social preference against the grain too much.

would you rather the mate-selection process did not include physical attractiveness?

me, no. i only wish it would be polite to tell my light-skinned aunt she's a fat-ass (she is) when she disparage someone who is darker but but better on all other metrics. i believe in honesty (i figure out ways to drop clues to tell fat-asses to shup up. or, if some is bragging about their royal ancestors i drop in some basic genetic logic which implies that everyone has ha an overwhelming preponderance of slave-peasant ancestors, etc. etc. unearned attractiveness signals are a bad sign about what someone is trying to distract from)....

I think it's bizarre to have preferences for a race or certain look (blonde, brunette, redhead, black, asian, indian), with certain exemptions (i.e. keeping within your own culture/background, though I personally don't feel the need to follow this either). Why do I think it's bizarre, and at certain times unhealthy? Well, I have known people who fetishize asians, african americans, blondes, etc. and it really says alot about that person's self-worth, and sometimes they have some self-loathing issues. Ontop of that, you can't universally say people of certain races are more attractive than others: individuals within any race, vary, obviously. Anyhow, I don't think the attractive card is why people have such bizarre preferences, though - they are looking for something else which they don't have, which they feel will make their gene pool more "superior", or for an idea that they will be more dominant in the relationship, etc. It's disturbing to me because their preferences are based on untrue stereotypes of passivity or prowess of sexuality (esp when it comes to women) etc etc. After a certain age, we should be mature enough to let go of such fetishes. It's very limiting. I can understand why alot of people are attracted to beautiful people period (although that, too, can be limiting) but let go of the blonde only, black only etc etc dating rule. You can do what you like - I won't stop you - just think about how you came to have a narrow preference.
----------

As far as the ladies not commenting on Vinod (who, from the pic, is attractive, btw), well, maybe we're just nicer :) Sexually harassing or rude comments, period just plain stink. I've seen some not-so-nice comments directed at some very pretty female mutineers and I hate it. How hurtful. The guys who so harshly criticize must be pretty damn perfect looking to judge so.
--------------

Yes, I think companies are going for the oter 50% of the population. Repackage the ladies stuff, sell it a little cheaper, and voila, more profit. I personally don't have a problem with wanting to look your best (mascara - yes!), but selling crap that doesn't work (whitening and wrinkle creams) is just plain unethical, and I hope consumers will not fall into that t(c)rap.

Will requiring more of men, somehow backfire, and end up with everyone just giving up ? That would be nice, but unlikely. Not as long as we have to get laid and get jobs. But an even playing field could be on it's way in some regards....
--------

individuals within any race, vary, obviously.

By what criteria? So, you are saying the physical attributes that you consider for determining the above variance make sense, while those used by others are bizarre fetishes?

Siddhartha M - Ice cream's long been one of my favorites too :)

These conversations go around in boring cirlces, so I don't have much to add.

But to bring the focus back to men...I don't care about color. Just bone structure like this man.

Thanks for the question. I guess I need to clarify. I said I don't feel that the people who have race fetishes don't do so because they feel that race is the most attractive. They have their fetish for other reasons. Especially, since you can't say one race is more attractive than the other.

However, you can say that Maneet has more symmetrical and balance features for his face than Punnet, making Maneet more attractive to alot of people. Attractiveness varies from individual individual based on their symmetry and balance of features, and is not based on a race hierarchy. That is what I meant.

Of course, I'm talking about pure physical attractiveness, and not about the peronality stuff that makes a person truly attractive.

These conversations go around in boring cirlces, so I don't have much to add.

Sigh....I hear you there. And I don't usually tire this easily!

But to bring the focus back to men...I don't care about color. Just bone structure like this man.

Cicatrix - you like bones? ;)

sorry, this thread is hilarious, everyone is different. Sometimes i like sushi sometimes i like curry, sometimes italian.

Jassi Jaise koi nahin is a show some mutineers have watched as it was mentioned before. I just remebered the theme song went as as

"Ek Ladki Hai....Roop-Rang mein hai peeche..."

These conversations go around in boring cirlces

All conversations do, when they don't seem to converge to your belief.

Ms Ang,

I guess I need to clarify.

I do understand you. You see, a person who selects his/her mate on the basis of physical attributes may be considered shallow. But you can not demonify a person who puts more emphasis on attribute A and sing glories of one who attaches more weight to attribute B.

The only reason we are sensitive about colorism is that it is associated with racism. Otherwise I don't see why the aunties need to be abused for blatantly specifying their skin tone preferences, especially when the underlying reasons for this preference are basically the same as those of yours for preferring a more muscular or taller man (for instance).

As you have seen on this thread, people still keep dropping hints about their fairness. They are just doing the right thing, claiming their piece in the competitive world of mate-selection, or shall we say, "to get laid".

sorry, this thread is hilarious, everyone is different. Sometimes i like sushi sometimes i like curry, sometimes italian.

What's yer point? Huh?

Yeah, but you wouldn't have any one of the above every single day or that would be very limiting to your palette. Plus food analogies don't work, because people aren't usually foodstuffs.

But you can not demonify a person who puts more emphasis on attribute A and sing glories of one who attaches more weight to attribute B.

Well, I think I can attribute more weight to B than A. You didn't define A and B, but I think I guess?. One (A) is racism/exoticism (race fetish) and the other (B) is choosing an attractive mate based on that individual, one, person's attractiveness. Therefore they are very different. I am not condoning B (pure physical attractiveness alone doesn't do it for me), but at least it's not exoticism/colorism, and looks at the individual rather than his/her race as a basis for mate or other selection. That's why I see A and B as different.

With that being said, it's a free country and you can have whatever preferences you like; you're all adults here. That's all I'm saying and all I have to add to this discussion.

Ang - I think this topic is futile, and people can argue it for ever and never go anywhere. And while there is a way to quantitatively assess everything, there is a limit to the degree. Evaluating attraction in my opinion is one of them.

I think this topic is futile, and people can argue it for ever and never go anywhere.

Now that my point has been totally missed/misunderstood (or badly articulated due to exhaustion), I agree even more.

he's cute!

You know, the colorism thing really does not count against all white women like someone initially implied. One of the white women I know who married into an Indian family who also 1) converted to Hinduism, 2) inexplicably changed her FIRST name in addition to her last name upon marriage and 3) dresses in desi clothes at all desi functions, even the b-day party at Chuck E Cheese, is considered to be gorgeous by the aunties. I just mention this as a friendly tip for all you fellows in the predicament of Guess Who's Coming for Dinner?.

Angel says

he's cute!

Since this post was about men i took some liberties with the prior post...its all fun.

You know, the colorism thing really does not count against all white men
One of the white men I know who married into an Indian family who also
1) converted to Hinduism,
2) inexplicably changed his FIRST and Last names Now he goes by the name of Babu Ram Das.
3) dresses in desi clothes at all desi functions, even the b-day party at Chuck E Cheese he wears a jodhpuri with a dhoti.
is considered to be gorgeous by the uncles.
I just mention this as a friendly tip for all you fellows in the predicament of Guess Who's Coming for Dinner?.

Otherwise I don't see why the aunties need to be abused for blatantly specifying their skin tone preferences, especially when the underlying reasons for this preference are basically the same as those of yours for preferring a more muscular or taller man (for instance).

i'm relativelly shallow, i admit it. there is some company where i speak in a certain way about attributes i like, and others where i speak in other ways. the problem i have with the colorism thing is that it is ostentatious and aggressive it is insistence that everyone should value this attribute. also, it is pretty stupid in the USofA for the reasons i listed above. i had to argue with a kashmiri pandit on my weblog once where he insisted strongly that 1) pandits were caucasoids 2) they didn't look like dark skinned bengalis and tamils (whose women he claimed were ugly of course). now, at the end of the day, he's still a sand nigger, who will get his ass beaten by his fellow caucasoids. that's a fact of american life that makes the intrabrown distinctions kind of annoying to me. and you know what? there was recently a book i read about a jewish man writing to a jewish woman who had married into nehru's kashmiri pandit family and lost touch with her hungarian jewish roots (she had lived in india for 50 years). her family was worried about the consequences of her marrying a "black man" (i.e., a "caucasoid" kashmiri pandit). i know enough genetics to understand that browns are not blacks. and there are plenty of historical observations by europeans who make the distinction between indians and blacks. nevertheless, in light of the fact that those who do make distinctions don't really care much about race, and those who don't make distinctions are the types to slam your ass on the ground for macking on their sisters, it is a matter of perspective and seems to bespeak someone who doesn't understand that they are in a different cultural context and their values need to change a bit.

hm. small announcement, i just decided i'm going to start up a weblog termed "brownology." ikram saed once told me that i'm a combination of an alien anthropologist and a member of the family, so i'll work with that perspective. my first post, up tonight will be a response to this thread, and a restatement of some of the talking points i've trying to push forward. will post an update here later when the subdomain resolves, etc.

Ms Ang,

One (A) is racism/exoticism (race fetish) and the other (B) is choosing an attractive mate based on that individual, one, person's attractiveness. Therefore they are very different.

This argument does not hold water. Are you suggesting that the darkest brown is lighter than the lightest black? Maybe anthropoligist Mr Razib can throw some light on this.

Mr Razib,

i have with the colorism thing is that it is ostentatious and aggressive it is insistence that everyone should value this attribute.

True, if colorism is practiced as a form of racism, i.e. insistence that skin-tone dictates qualitative aspects. What is wrong in desiring a lighter skinned person for your own personal private use?

As a side note, I wanted to ask you two questions.

a) You mentioned that when a large number of female fish select dull male fish in an artificial test, newly brought female fish start behaving like them counter to their normal preference. My question is, can the recent increase in interest for asian women among brown men be attributed to the fact that white men are showing an increasing preference for asian women? Os is it an independent preference?

b) Does the large skewed percentage of asian females marrying white male (ref. the yellowcake link) suggest a latent form of reverse-racism?

This argument does not hold water. Are you suggesting that the darkest brown is lighter than the lightest black?

What?! No, that is not what I was saying or suggesting and I have NO idea why you would think that at all. I don't think we're talking about the same thing anymore because I truly don't understand where your question is coming from; I can only asume you did not understand what I was trying to say. I already attempted to clarify my point, and if that wasn't good enough, then c'est la vie. Au revoir Mister Argus!

a) You mentioned that when a large number of female fish select dull male fish in an artificial test, newly brought female fish start behaving like them counter to their normal preference.

"Ms. Anna" is nowhere to be found on this thread?

As a side note, I wanted to ask you two questions.

a) You mentioned that when a large number of female fish select dull male fish in an artificial test, newly brought female fish start behaving like them counter to their normal preference. My question is, can the recent increase in interest for asian women among brown men be attributed to the fact that white men are showing an increasing preference for asian women? Os is it an independent preference?

b) Does the large skewed percentage of asian females marrying white male (ref. the yellowcake link) suggest a latent form of reverse-racism?

Why does a person need to pose a question when they believe they already have all the answers?

True, if colorism is practiced as a form of racism, i.e. insistence that skin-tone dictates qualitative aspects. What is wrong in desiring a lighter skinned person for your own personal private use?

argus, i don't care if someone has personal preferences. i'm not even the type to want racism to be eliminated from society insofar as getting that last 1% of utopian perfection is impossible. but, i don't like brown people bringing their attitudes with them from brownland in a new country where said attitudes aren't appropriate. i.e., in the USA if a brown person has dark skin, that doesn't mean they are "low class" and "work in the field." in the USA, a typical "fair" brown person is a smack-damn-nigger to those who really care if you are a particular shade or not. yes, most white people can understand that a punjabi is fairer than a typical bengali if they have many brown friends, but these people in the end really don't care too much. now, move the question to american browns, do they care? should they care? i don't care about #2, if you like them dark or dusky, not my business. but, like i said, this isn't brownland, and to me caring about shades of brown seems kind of bizarro in a country where the lightest brown people are basically dark. there were socially understandable reasons for color prejudice to develop in south asia. as i've noted, it predates european hegemony across most of the world. that being said, it is kind of an embarrassing cultural adaptation transposed into the american environment.

a) You mentioned that when a large number of female fish select dull male fish in an artificial test, newly brought female fish start behaving like them counter to their normal preference. My question is, can the recent increase in interest for asian women among brown men be attributed to the fact that white men are showing an increasing preference for asian women? Os is it an independent preference?

i haven't seen said preference. i don't see many brown people.

b) Does the large skewed percentage of asian females marrying white male (ref. the yellowcake link) suggest a latent form of reverse-racism?

i don't like the term reverse-racism. a lot of groups are racist. the reasons for asian females marrying white males are complex, i don't think there is one answer. again, i suspect there are modest structual biases, but cultura & social factors amplify them. of course, i would like to see a study which corrects for height differences between asian and non-asian males in the USA and see how that plays into it. a lot of the difference might be explained by a simple and unknown causative variable like that.

I don't think TOO much about color, maybe cuz I'm a 2nd gen desi. But 1st gen folks that I met (few hundred or so over the yrs in various states) usually do, including aunt (DC area) who laments that her educated, outgoing, 21 yr old daughter w/ great job, is "dark."

I've noticed recently that I like guys w/ dark hair (brown or black) and brown eyes the best. I also REALLY like blue eyes... The most important qualities I want are brains, humor, and a great smile!

---EMMA

my response to this thread is up at my weblog.

I think there are some slightly different dynamics at work here, depending on whether we're talking about the older generation or Western-born 2nd-Generationers.

The older people, especially the "aunties", do have a lot of embedded, conditioned attitudes regarding skin colour, certainly with regards to other South Asian women (as has already been exhaustively discussed on this thread). Some of them also make a lot of negative assumptions about the "morality" of darker Indian girls who may not view their skin tone as being a problem or an impediment to their attractiveness, ie. a light-skinned Indian girl being sexy (and knowing it) will generate a different response to a darker Indian girl being sexy. Compare some of the contrasting reactions to Aishwarya and our friend Bipasha, for example.

Something else I've noticed, at least in my own experience during my life here in the UK, is that many (not all) darker Indian girls here end up deliberately dating white & black guys more than Indian guys -- for multiple reasons, but I guess some of them are to do with the fact that their darker skin tone may not necessarily be viewed as an unattractive feature by many guys from these groups, at least in comparison with how attractive the girls may be regarded by many Indian guys and within stereotypical Indian society as a whole. You can't blame the girls for this -- if they're going to be regarded as more attractive by people from other communities and will basically be treated better overall than they otherwise would by their fellow desis, of course they'll be drawn more towards them. This is common sense.

Anyway, as Ang & Cocopuffs both said in posts 175 & 176, a lot of over-analysis is inappropriate and the whole question of who to date/find attractive is entirely up to the individual. The only things I can add are as follows:

1. Make sure you like the other person for the "right" reasons (and be honest with yourself about your motivations), ie. the reasons shouldn't be self-destructive, harmful to the other person, or counter-productive to the "healthiness" of the relationship overall (regardless of whether the relationship is just a one-night-stand or something much more serious than that). One has to take responsibility for one's own personal motivations and any negative/positive consequences.
2. Beyond the fact that you find them sexually attractive, never forget to acknowledge the other person's "humanity" behind that; one has to connect (and empathise) with the other party on a human-to-human basis (otherwise you end up with things like insensitivity, "using" people, or treating them like commodities/status symbols/etc etc).
3. If you don't find someone physically attractive (whether it's because of their skin colour or other general subjective aesthetic reasons/personal criteria), don't mistreat them or view them as "less" than someone you do find attractive. I've noticed a lot of 1st-Generationers are quite blatant in turning their noses up at people (especially the second-generation, in particular girls) and they can be very prejudiced, purely - or predominantly - on whether they view the person as physically attractive (very often based heavily on "fairness" -- at least until the girl says/does something to imply that she's just a normal westernised person and not some Sita-type "homely" stereotype), and I've seen this attitude inherited by quite a few of their adult children too. So it's important not to fall into this trap.

Just my thoughts ;)

*Points 2 & 3 are just related to some "inherited" or "conditioned" cultural traits we are often exposed to from the 1st-Generation and have to make a conscious decision to be aware of (in relation to their ideas - not necessarily ours - of what makes a person attractive).

I'm not being an Agony Uncle offering unsolicited advice to the SM clan ;)

>>Something else I've noticed, at least in my own experience during my life here in the UK, is that many (not all) darker Indian girls here end up deliberately dating white & black guys more than Indian guys -- for multiple reasons, but I guess some of them are to do with the fact that their darker skin tone may not necessarily be viewed as an unattractive feature by many guys from these groups,

This is true here as well, and has everything to do with the ABCD male's preference for lighter skinned "brown" women.

Those who might genuinely prefer darker skin are marginalized as fetishists: genuine sexual attraction is reduced to pathos :(

White males are not as attuned to color gradations and will not distinguish based upon color.

Black males may actually prefer darker skinned Indian women. I've noticed that the Brown girls they label FINE may be markedly different from those your typical ABCD labels FINE.

White women may prefer the darker Indian men, especially those with sharp noses and prominent jaws- the Anglo package "browned" for a little extra sexual kick.

Enough broad, sweeping generalizations :)

I love how even admonishments like these 'As you can see, several posters craftily let it slip that they happen to be quite fair'. could not deter people from letting us know that they are fair.
Grow up!

AM!

Okay, I said I would stay away, but I can't! I'm hurt and I'm furious. Grow up? Who are you to admonish anyone? Why is it okay for some in this thread to mention they are 'dark', but if someone else mentions their particular color is different in a thread about color and how it affects those of us growing up in the West, it is perceived as an advertisement for that person's superiority? Sorry, that's straight old-skool, old-timey thinking. No one thinks like that in the US, no one thinks one shade of brown is more advantageous than another, so mentioning it means nothing. Or do you think the people mentioning it are advertising here at Sepia Mutiny, where the most eligible desi males in desi-dom reside?

Well, first: I've 'let it slip' plenty of times that I have MS. So tell, me, doesn't being a diseased on-her-way-to-being a criple trump the fair part, my dear brainwashed thinking you are so progressive types? Am I now advertising my superiority or inferiority?

My point was this, for the *thousandth* time: what some people in India or in the western desi community think confers an advantage in the US is not the actual experience of some desis. I'm sorry you were raised to think that way, that you are so fragile about color that honestly mentioning it becomes an automatic sign that the person mentioning it is trying to show how much better they are. One of the things I dislike most about the political discussions on Sepia Mutiny is that instead of paying attention to what the person is saying, motivations, thoughts, and ideas are made up and words put into another person's mouth.

Great. Growing up I got sh*t from the white kids and the brown kids, in equal measure, because I wanted to do things my own way, and didn't quite fit in with either group. Nice to see the adults here are just as thoughtful.

Why is it okay for some in this thread to mention they are 'dark', but if someone else mentions their particular color is different in a thread about color and how it affects those of us growing up in the West, it is perceived as an advertisement for that person's superiority?

This particular part of your post stood out to me, MD (though the rest of it was equally significant and I appreciate it).

While it's considered bad manners to hate on darkies and fatties, it seems perfectly ok to hate on the skinny and pasty. How it's different, I have no idea, except that because the thinner & fairer people are supposed to sit there and take it. Likewise, complimenting someone on their fairness is pretty ridiculous; what's the retort to that, "thanks, I guess I lucked out in the genetic melanin lottery..."??

Seriously, if we're going to hate on people, let's do it for more individualized reasons like our personalities or attitudes. Hating on factors that are often outside our control and have zero impact on the people we are is just petty and stupid.

It's human nature, I'm not going to sit here and be all Pollyanna and deny that we all hate on somebody for something sometime... but at least let's take the time to personalize that hating, instead of taking the easy out of fat/dark/scrawny/pasty/short/big-nosed, etc...

me being me, i want a survey. we are making expectations based analyses, but we don't know how variation works as a function of other parameters.

AM , what seems childish to me is that you think MD is actually is being sneaky and letting it "slip" that she is fair.

I love how even admonishments like these 'As you can see, several posters craftily let it slip that they happen to be quite fair'.

200!!

200!!

Like Stephen Colbert might haughtily proclaim:

I called it!

ha ha

There is nothing wrong with a woman being aware that she is attractive (yes, because she is fair-skinned, for example), as long as she doesn't become arrogant or egotistical about it, and doesn't look down on other people (esp. other women) who may not be as fair-skinned as her.

Beware of confusing "awareness" with "egotism" (applies to both light-skinned women and any people who want to admonish them).

Razib said:

in the USA, a typical "fair" brown person is a smack-damn-nigger to those who really care if you are a particular shade or not... now, move the question to american browns, do they care? should they care? i don't care about #2, if you like them dark or dusky, not my business. but, like i said, this isn't brownland, and to me caring about shades of brown seems kind of bizarro in a country where the lightest brown people are basically dark. there were socially understandable reasons for color prejudice to develop in south asia. as i've noted, it predates european hegemony across most of the world. that being said, it is kind of an embarrassing cultural adaptation transposed into the american environment.

You expect people to reform themselves of deep atavistic tendencies because white people think we're all "sand niggers" anyway? Have you considered that Browns may not care?

Whites trying to marry into Indian households experience a shitload of racism, which often shocks and surprises them. Being white, they assume that they are guaranteed acceptance.

The civil rights movement, multicultural studies, etc. ensures that we can smack down anyone explicitly racist.

As for the implicit racism, glass ceilings, etc. choose a profession like medicine where your earning power is not dependent on white approbation. Indian doctors wear saris to work coz they CAN.

Settle in a multicultural urban/suburban area where you are not constantly burdened by sandniggeritis, and where you have an opportunity to participate in cultural activities.

Colorism may be bad, but this is not a good reason to reform ourselves of it.

*There is nothing wrong with a woman being aware that she is attractive (yes, because she is fair-skinned, for example),

I am referring specifically to South Asian women, of course.

Women have continually been subjected to the rituals of beautification - eyebrow plucking, leg waxing, skin whitening and applying our daily round of makeup. The big question “why do we do all of this”? To look better for a man, to get a better husband, because it is demanded of us?

If you break it down, sure there's some desire to look attractive to men on the part of hetero gals, but its got a lot to do with other women.
We really dress up as much (or more) for other women as for men.

An ode to Susie Bright: Let's get the solemn caveat out of the way: yes, some men and some aunties prefer a particular look, a particular shade of brown. And some people like pistachio ice cream above all other flavors. So what? What every man, every autny, every uncle, every warning mother knows however, is how maniacal women can be about their looks, and that it improves a man's status to sport a pretty light thing on his arm. Skin lightness has more to do with phoney social status -- its an emotional weapon, a marker of imaginary rank, and that it has very little to do with beauty or sex appeal. If desi women did an about-face--if every brown girl said, "dark skin is hot!"--then this nonsense wouldn't hold up.

I agree that if desi girls reinterpreted their dark skin as beautiful, it can make a difference. I am a lot darker than my mother, but instead of pointing it out (like many of my aunties have) she put a more positive spin on it (ie I wish I had your skin tone, etc). Reverse psychology or not, it helped me to appreciate my dark skin.

As for the implicit racism, glass ceilings, etc. choose a profession like medicine where your earning power is not dependent on white approbation. Indian doctors wear saris to work coz they CAN.

Sigh... so let's just give up on fighting racism, give up on our passions and desired career path, and go wherever we can be most comfortable and simply survive??? I don't think so. This may be a solution for some, and I don't blame them, but I like to see browns in a variety of professional and artistic designations. Getting out there and intermingling with all kinds of people is part of the key to furthering cultural understanding and tolerance, not hiding where you feel most comfortable. It may be hard work for the first few generations, but eventually it'll pay off for future generations. After all, someone has to be the first to break the barriers down.

Have you considered that Browns may not care?

no :) seriously. what white people think about brown people matters in the USofA because the majority is white. unless you want to seal yourself off into an ethnic ghetto, it matters. plain as that. and i'm not one to whine much about racism actually. i just think that we should all aim to be neitszchian supermen in our own lives, and stop being haunted by the specter of brownland values which are kind of weirdo in the USofA.

p.s. i don't mind of course that most of you are far more brown culturally than i. shit like diwali is as american as apple pie potentially. curry is as british as the union jack. etc. etc. on the other hand, some brown thangs don't translate well, and we should acknowledge them and try to shrug off gen-FOBs attempts to perpetuate them into the future.

Sigh... so let's just give up on fighting racism, give up on our passions and desired career path, and go wherever we can be most comfortable and simply survive??? I don't think so. This may be a solution for some, and I don't blame them, but I like to see browns in a variety of professional and artistic designations. Getting out there and intermingling with all kinds of people is part of the key to furthering cultural understanding and tolerance, not hiding where you feel most comfortable. It may be hard work for the first few generations, but eventually it'll pay off for future generations. After all, someone has to be the first to break the barriers down.

Where did I say one has to give up fighting racism?

Doctors don't just survive, they make a very good income. Being comfortable is not a bad thing; most of the world, in case you haven't noticed, is quite uncomfortable.

Sure go ahead and crack that glass ceiling. My point is that one shouldn't/needn't compromise their cultural identity, shouldn't have to reform or "whiten" just to please the "man".

But this may be a whole nother thread :)

My point is that one shouldn't/needn't compromise their cultural identity, shouldn't have to reform or "whiten" just to please the "man".

this will be a new thread, and i'm off today, but, i strongly disagree with this. i think one problem with immigration today is that many groups believe they can simply be in amerika and not of america. there have been groups like the amish or hutterites who have practiced this lifestyle for centuries, but their numbers and impact have been marginal. i think the majority needs a common culture for a nation-state to be stable, and i believe that that culture should be the values that we see in the declaration of independence and the constitution (with modifications for modernity, i.e., racial and gender equality before the law, etc.). to some extent america can live with economic integration but social segregation, but i don't think it is a good thing for it to be ubiquitous. democracy is a way of life as much as it is a formal political progress. we should see others as cocitizens as much as consenting adults appropriate for capitalist transactions.

Doctors don't just survive, they make a very good income.

LOL. Doing what you don't REALLY want to do is a compromise, thus it is for sustenance, and not necessarily what you are interested in. That's what I meant.

But this may be a whole nother thread :)

Agreed.

and as for as colorism relates to american culture, i believe it is fundamentally anti-democratic and obviously rooted in the hereditary principle. an analogy would be white americans who take pride in their "noble" ancestry. not only it is a tip off of weaknesses and insecurities, it is fundamentality un-american to take pride in a nobility of blood. american citizenship demands one abjure titles of nobility for a reason.

Ang:

I never did say that someone should FORCE themselves to choose medicine. I don't know where that came from.

Razib:

Citizenship means to many a passport, and thats all. As Suketu Mehta recently wrote in the Times, if the opportunities become thin here, his family would pack up and leave. (My apologies to all nationalists.)

If one is civil, does not commit crime and educate's their children, what difference does it make whether or not I conform to whatever you think is "American" or "Un-American"? I fully understand that I may not ever become a politician because I could not stomach mouthing patriotic platitudes that have no resonance with me; I may never be very good in advertising becaause I don't have the pulse of what white people like or dislike. But at the same time I am emotionally satisfied that I have not become just another mimic (white-)-man in the great American game. I have not progressively "whitened" to become more "mainstream" and had my identity manipulated in the name of a rather nebulous ideal. This does not mean one dislikes or disassociates with whites. It does not mean one has a low income. In fact, one can have a rather high income. Nor am I saying this is the only way to go.

I never did say that someone should FORCE themselves to choose medicine. I don't know where that came from.

I guess I somehow misunderstood this: (Am I too rational or literal?)

As for the implicit racism, glass ceilings, etc. choose a profession like medicine where your earning power is not dependent on white approbation. Indian doctors wear saris to work coz they CAN.

Whatever :)

All I'm saying is it's worth it becoming a professor of medicine (or insert other passion here), despite glass ceilings.

Longest thread ever!

i think one problem with immigration today is that many groups believe they can simply be in amerika and not of america.

Using an example from my side of the Atlantic, this is exactly the reason why we ended up with 7/7. Also why there are a lot of intergenerational/cross-cultural conflicts within the South Asian population here in general.

>>Using an example from my side of the Atlantic, this is exactly the reason why we ended up with 7/7.

I think that has much more to do with religious radicalism. There is a gaping difference between gang warfare where one or two wogs and/or blacks knife each other to death and cold-blooded, orchestrated suicide bombings. And if your angry at the man for ghettoizing you, there are easier ways out of the ghetto.

Im a british bengali with extremely fair skin (because im 1/4 white-my gran is white irish)and also find myself adored by asian friends and family who are amazed by my complexion. This really irritates me for the fact that your considered beautiful if you are fair-people dont bother looking at your facial features or more importantly, your personality. Asians shud stop this obsession with fair skin.

wow....i had a friend who was upset a few weeks ago. he cried to me, soemone called me dark today. and not that it really matter, but he's not very dark. the poor thing, i said to him why worry about it? i said you're wonderful person no matter what colour you are, even if you were plaid, striped, or polka dotted. it doesn't mater what shade you are, and i, for one, love any shade. so it's fine. besides, i finally gave up on my pasty complexion a few years ago, and learned to accept it, though after fidning out my own heritage, which has raised a few eyeborws from unkwoing folks. but anyhoo.....

as far as ic are, no matter what shade of whatever you are, doesn't matter. and besides, i know some dear ones who are darker, and they're quite easy on the eye. ;)

#111:

Are you serious about having a black/desi dating discussion? That would be cool since it hasn't been done. Do you have to wait for SM to have an article or blog connected to it?

fairness creams exists only in India, Rest of the world its "Tanning Creams", Check out guys and gals how those cosmetics companies fooled Indians..haha