Nice post Manish.

I have wondered how similar the Thai and Tamil alphabets ever since I was at a Thai restaurant and correctly identified the Thai letter "p" on the menu, from my knowledge of the Tamil alphabet. See: Thai ป, and Tamil ப.

But I haven't been able to find any other equivalences.

I've always found it interesting to witness the demographics of people inside Sri Mariamman temples in SE Asia. It might not be a representative sample, but here's what I've observed:

Kuala Lumpur: 75% S Indian, 25% foregin tourists
Singhapur: 60% Chinese Sg, 25% S Indian Sg, 10% N Indian Sg, 5% foreign tourists
Bangkok: 100% Thai

http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/images/south1.gif

Evolution diagram of SEA scripts

The Thai script is based on the Brahmi script, which is the script from which almost all Indic scripts evolved. The Brahmi script in turn is believed to be based on the Phoenician script.

Before turning to the Roman script, Javanese used to be written in a script that was based on the Brahmi script, and Balinese still uses a similar script for temple signage and scriptures on the island.

The influence of Indian culture on South-east Asia is extensive.

I pulled out an excellent book from my bookshelf ("The World's Writing System" edited by Daniels and Bright) and found some interesting stuff.

Historically, written Thai and Lao can be traced back to South Indian writing systems of the Grantha

also

The traditional order of Thai consonants... generally follows Devanagari; but the sound changes mentioned above, as well as other innovations, disguise the parallelism

Another interesting tidbit:

We do not know exactly how the Indian influence began, since the dawn of Southeast Asian history presents us with already Indianized states... All parts of India, most the the south, played a part (how???)

A few weeks ago, I ate a meal inside an Indonesian restaurant. Indonesian music was blaring throuhg the speakers, and I heard a few words that sounded similar to some Sanskrit words. I asked the waiter if the words translated to their Sanskrit counterparts, but I was competely off in the meaning :(

http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/images/south1.gif

Nice link. Looks like somewhere between AD 750 and 1050 those south-east asian scribes got really sloppy :). If only they'd been more careful to keep to the pre-600 Pallava script, we'd be able to read each other's scripts today.

This doesn't really have to do with anything. I found it interesting that when I went to Thailand I noticed alot of Sikh taylors, and now I read about a clothing chain with a Sikh name too.

Kudos Manish. Very informative post. Most Indian's/PIO (non SM readers!) probably dont know about this..!

the sanskrit influence even extends to tagalog, which is the dominant language in the philippines, even though that nation was never directly influenced indian culture. one way the "gentle tasaday" stone age hoax was unveiled was when people noticed that the tasaday language had sanskrit loan words, which implied contact with the outside world.

Agreed, nice post Manish. One of my best friends from high school is Thai, and the similarities between out cultures and dance forms were often apparent. The ancient Thai capital Ayutthaya is apparently named after Ayodhya, and the naming of the Kings is often Sanksritic and informally includes Rama (Rama I, Rama II, etc..).

As for the origin of the post: I have a friend whose father is a diplomat, and he lived in Bangkok for a while. He still has his nicely tailored tuxedo made there, and I recall him showing me the label on the inside pocket--it was some very obviously Indian name, and he said most of the the tailors in Bangkok were Indian. I was amused by this, since the tailor who alters clothes for me is Thai, and apparently she sometimes watches Bollywood while she sews. :-)

So this is why ananthan.com was held hostage by some Thai guy for so long...

It's an interesting regional connection though, as far as I know it started with the Spice trade. Anyone know if any Thai influence went the other way, back to the subcontinent?

as far as I know it started with the Spice trade.

? i'm confused. doesn't india have spices enough? :) (yes, i know red chilis are a new world import, but i thought peppercorns were indigenous to kerala) my impression is that it was classical cultural emulation, as tribal confederacies centralized under paramount kings they needed an ideology to legitimize their devaluation of older traditions of local control and custom. the hindu and buddhist ideas of kingship, i.e., cakravartin, was a way of doing this. the analogy in europe would be the use of the christian church to sanctify the monarchy and destroy local religious cults which were used to buttress the status of regional pagan nobilities (who often had local priestly functions).

Anyone know if any Thai influence went the other way, back to the subcontinent?

the revival of buddhism in sri lanka was partly supported by the thais from what i remember (both are therevada). and, some of the neo-buddhists in maharashtra have had thai support too.

I was recently surprised to learn that the Hindi word for 'grapes' sounds like the Thai equivalent, a-ngun.

Also, in addition to the standard nung (one), song (two), sam (three)..., Thais have a sort of parallel counting system that begins with ake, toe, tri... (please excuse the crappy transcription). I've discovered that Thai words like mek (cloud), gulab (rose) and thup (incense), which I didn't expect to have South Asian origins, seem to have originated from there.

I once told a desi girl that Thais and Indians were in a lot of ways cultural kin; she laughed in my face.

Since then, I've always wondered if desis ever noticed (or cared about) the cultural and linguistic ties between Thailand and South Asia. It's nice to know that some of you do.

Since then, I've always wondered if desis ever noticed (or cared about) the cultural and linguistic ties between Thailand and South Asia.

some hindutva types include thailand in ersatz india. :) so yeah, some browns care....

Razib,

Recent publications in the journal of gastronomic research reveal south-east Asian, especially Thai influence on contemporary Indian culture :-)

But seriously,

I've noticed statues of what looks suspiciously like Brahma and Ganesh in various shrines in Thailand. Brahma worship itself is not very common in India.

Also, the kings of Thailand are still called Rama, although they also have a common name.

The Sikhs in Thailand are an institution. There are famous Thai-Sikh tailoring houses that even come to your hotel room, take measurements and deliver your suit within hours.

Indian influence in South East Asia was profound until at least the 14th century CE, until the arrival of Islam. The spread of Islam in South East Asia was driven by trade (and not by the sword).

The evidence of Islamic India's influence on the region is evident from the presence of Urdu words in the Malay language.

The British, of course, governed their south-east Asian territories through Calcutta.

Indian influence in South East Asia was profound until at least the 14th century CE, until the arrival of Islam. The spread of Islam in South East Asia was driven by trade (and not by the sword).

that should read driven by trade and by the sword. for example, the conversion of costal city-states in java during the declining years of majahapit was due to mercentile factors, but once these regions became muslim there were jihads against the hindu states, starting with majahapit. there were holy wars against 'pagan' eastern javanese states until the 18th century. granted, one should not overemphasize the impact of the jihads, there has been a mild back-conversion to hinduism under the aegis of the balinese in eastern javan since the massacres of the 1960s (perpetrated with the complicity of the orthodox muslim land-owning class against 'commmunist' syncretist villagers).

as for indian influence, there are still brahmins in the court of the king of thailand, who fancies himself a cakravartin.

Right on! The Ramanyana is taught in schools in Thailand. My office building in Bangkok had a God Shani - 12 foot statue sitting right in front of the porch.

My Thais

More to point, Manish, Mischa Barton's thais.

The Hindustan Times, via IANS, has a write up today, aptly titled - From Ramayana to Bollywood, Indonesia still loves India

>>the revival of buddhism in sri lanka was partly supported by the thais from what i remember (both are therevada). and, some of the neo-buddhists in maharashtra have had thai support too.

It may be the other way around. Sri Lankan monks re-established Theraveda in Siam and other parts of Southeast Asia, forcing out the syncretic Hindu-Buddhism at an idelogical level (not at a popular level).

The neo-Buddhists don't have the support of Thai organizations, as far as I am aware. The only substantial outside support they received came from a British Buddhist organization. Ambedkar established what he called Navayana Buddhism, which (to him) transcends Mahayana and Theraveda Buddhism. It is a highly rationalist Buddhism influenced (according to Meera Nanda) by the American philospoher John Dewey. He wrote 22 oaths (the mostly Mahar and Jathav) neo-Buddhists most recite upon initiation.

Todays Thailand still retains much Hindu practice, from linga worship to Ganesha worship. Some even suggest that Siam is in many ways Hindu.

In Java, there is a scantily documented Hindu resurgence (fuled in small part by Balinese Hindus)--some have suggested there may be as many as half a million Hindu "reconverts" there. There is an old Hindu prophecy that the dharma will revive in Indonesia. That seems unlikely. There national motto--"Unity in Diversity" is actually from an old Indic text calling for the unity of Shaivism and Buddhism.

Here is an article that appeared yesterday on the Hinduism Today newswire

The Nation

THAILAND, November 13, 2005: For generations, Hindu Gods and Goddesses have occupied a special place in the hearts and minds of many Thai Buddhists as well as foreign visitors, especially from other Asian countries. One unique place in Bangkok where you may observe or worship these deities is the Ratchaprasong intersection, where many of the city's upscale shopping and hotel complexes are situated. Last Wednesday was a special day at the extremely popular Brahma shrine in front of the Grand Hyatt Erawan Hotel. Hundreds of Thais and foreign faithful flocked to the shrine to pay obeisance and pray for fulfilment of their desires. Apart from the Brahma shrine, set up in 1956, there are five other prominent shrines in the vicinity of Ratchaprasong intersection.

A statue of the elephant god Ganesh sits in front of Isetan shopping centre, while the Trimurti, a form of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, adorns the front of Zen department store. At the Intercontinental Hotel near Gaysorn Plaza, Narayana, another name for Vishnu, is mounted on his celestial vehicle Garuda, while the plaza itself has the Statue of the Goddess Uma Parvati on its fourth floor. Opposite Gaysorn is the Amarin Plaza, where the rain god Indra stands majestically.

The property-owners view Hindu Gods and Goddesses as helpful for the prosperity of their businesses. For instance, the owners of the original Erawan Hotel decided to build a prominent shrine to the four-faced Brahma back in 1956 after several workers lost their lives in mysterious construction accidents. Essentially, the shrine was intended to ward off misfortune. Since its consecration, the shrine has become a model for similar ones nationwide.

Besides property-owners, all these shrines of Hindu Gods and Goddesses are also immensely popular among local and foreign worshippers, especially the Chinese from Indonesia, Malaysia, Taiwan and Hong Kong. Chen Siek Hui, an Indonesian-Chinese, said she had returned to Bangkok last week after a trip to Vietnam to offer prayers at the Erawan Brahma shrine and thank the deity for answering her prayer. "I prayed here last year when my business ran into trouble. I believed Brahma would give me the courage and strength to solve the problems. Now my business is running smoothly, so I came back to say thank you, and while I was here I asked for better health for my mother," she said. A relative of Hui, who accompanied her to Bangkok, said there were several Brahma shrines in Indonesia but Hui had great faith in the one at the Erawan Hotel. Besides Indonesian-Chinese, the Erawan Brahma shrine often sees worshippers from Taiwan, Hong Kong and Malaysia, including celebrities. Among these is Taiwanese movie star Nicolas Tse, who said that his prayer had been answered after he visited the shrine.

Why, why are all temple towers painted in technicolor? [cringe]

Great post! Also, Thai and Cantonese numbers sound very similar.

Thai and Tamil scripts are similar because it has been proven that tamil explorers had colonized several southeast asian area including Thailand and Cambodia. In fact, the structures at Ankor wat in cambodia were built by Tamilian rulers and their decendents.

That is correct. Nearly all the tailors in thailand are of Indian Origin, but hardly a difference if you ask me, so long as they do their job well.

I know quite a few ladies in Bangkok who have almost pure Indian looks (Bengali). They say however, that they are 100% Thai.
I have read that the Thais originate from melting of several tribes (South China). Are one of these tribes Indian?

A sign at the Wat Buddhanusorn Thai Temple in Fremont,California

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2379/2484123639_b112db0a9c_b.jpg