Manish

Great post, I love it! You see right through this shit.

By the way, some people, if you talk about this kind of thing, about the limited roles, they start moaning and saying get that chip off your shoulder.

It must be tough to be a desi actor - to be faced with so many roles of stereotype and bullshit - what price for some dignity?

It’s tribal: kill the men, fuck the women

That should be read by any desi aspiring to become an actor, actress, director or writer.

They should go to Bollywood! There they can play an upper-caste, light-skinned Hindu Punjabi or Rajasthani with the surname Malhotra or Verma, have a lil ansgt-fest with an equally light skinned damsel, and then get married with the whole loving, lght-skinned family's approval.

Nice and representative of India, that Bollywood :-)

Bollywood treats non-desis just as badly.

I dont understand why Bollywood's idiocies mitigate Hollywood's bullshit for diaspora desi's

Who said they did?

kill the men, fuck the women.

Yes, I agree, it sucks, generally brown men aren't treated well in Hollywood. *However* let's not be rash and say Kal Penn is the only hope for brown men out there. M. Night Shyamalan, to my recollection, has not played a terrorist or a cabbie in any of his movies. Ben Kingsley has done pretty well for himself and he is half-guju (if you're going to count halfies like Naureen Zaim and Rhona Mitra in your desi actresses list, it's only fair that you count Ben). Shekhar Kapur is another very successful director who may not cast desis but has still received acclaim in the hollywood industry (even though the Four Feathers was a big flop). You get my point. This isn't to say that I'm not mad about the stereotyping of brown men but let's give credit where credit is due.

Salman Khan is playing neither a terrorist nor a cabbie in Marigold (to be released in '06) and will have a white girl as his romantic interest. (yes, i know we haven't seen marigold yet, but i'm just trying to point out that's this movie isn't about a white man getting down with a desi woman. it's finally the other way around.)

Manish

That was the gist I got from Mark IV's comment.

Well, Isnt it known that Hollywood actors (leading men/women) are supposed to Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Saxon only. Thats why you see a lot of actors from Australia, UK who fit right in to a Hollywood leading men/woman (Jude Law/Keira Knightley). Rather than giving that role to a brown American Hollywood will go all the way to the UK or Australia to find the right "actor" for it.

It is sheer idiocy to say that your counterexamples prove that this guy isn't an idiot.

M. Night Shyamalan, to my recollection, has not played a terrorist or a cabbie in any of his movies. Ben Kingsley has done pretty well for himself... Shekhar Kapur is another very successful director...

Kingsley often passes for non-desi, which is why he changed his name. Directors like Shyamalan and Jay Chandrashekhar obviously don't cast themselves in stereotypical roles.

Ok, Manish -- let me get this straight. It's ok for you to scream and rave when you see white men get down with desi women, and when desi men are portrayed as terrorists and cab-drivers.

HOWEVER, when desi women complained about the way women were treated in "Harold and Kumar" you basically tell them to get over it: http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/000200.html

Sounds like YOU'RE the one who now needs to get over it. Stop whining.

And looter -- I apologize, but your double negatives are hard to understand. What are you saying? actually's counterexamples, good or bad? it's unclear.

read it again, but slow. I'm out, seems like someone already looted your vocab.

Who set this troll's tail on fire?

... when desi women complained about the way women were treated in "Harold and Kumar" you basically tell them to get over it...

False. I missed where you responded to my analysis, oh anonymous one. Point me to it.

I'd rather be feared than mocked. You?

drama in the OR!

nurses to the table stat! we've got a bleeder.

what's his name? er..umm... manish..vij... he's all cut up.

save your ass, vij! kill the men indeed!

you send me all these fine women manish.

next time: less email, more female

Naveen Andrews does have a major role in Lost and he even gets to kiss a white woman (gasp!)
Though I am pretty sure that Naveen Andrews (Saeed on Lost) could not have played Amit from India on Lost.

For those who dont know, Naveen Andrews plays an Iraqi ex republican guard member.

Desi people are picked on everywhere because they refuse to stand up for themselves. Whatever happened to Gandhi's teachings??
Speaking of Gandhi, he was not spared of this rampant stereotyping of desis.

Naveen Andrews also played Kip in The English Patient- a role that was a desi neither mocked nor feared. That's about all I have, however.

indira verma in "rome" anyone? parminder nagra in "ER"?

Naveen Andrews also played Kip in The English Patient- a role that was a desi neither mocked nor feared.

Because the author, Michael Ondaatje, is Sri Lankan.

Om Puri became an OBE (Officer of the Order of the British Empire) in 2004 for services to The British Film Industry. He's a brown man (and bless his heart, he ain't exactly a pretty one either) with an Indian name, and even indian nationality (I think), who got recognized for his amazing talent. Not bad, eh?

Neil Patil's acting resume dates back to just 2003. Good roles are hard to come by for anyone, with actors of all stripes and colors having to take crap roles when they start out.

This guy is paying his dues, and for someone who broke into the business just two years ago, he's doing pretty well, I think.

Naveen Andrews also played Kip in The English Patient- a role that was a desi neither mocked nor feared.

Because the author, Michael Ondaatje, is Sri Lankan.

But many people who loved the book were upset that the screenwriter slashed Kip's story (the sapper was crucial to Ondaatje's condemnation of the West) to focus more on the romance between the goras.

Of course, since Ondaatje wrote the screenplay, the book-lovers grumbled in quiet confusion.

It is all veddy full of bleddy complicayshuns, yaar?

Playing the devil's advocate, perhaps this statement by a (ahem....)prominent South Asian actor in Hollywood movies would explain why South Asian actors play such stereotypical roles and I think there is some substance to his argument.

"Unfortunately, there is a perception within the South Asian community that there should be a greater feeling of responsibility, that actors should have, Critics often tend to be doctors and engineers and people who are doing nothing to advance South Asians in entertainment. So it very easy for them to sit there and say 'You shouldn't do this or that. I am not saying they don't have the right to say it. But without the encouragement from the community, without the encouragement to get people to study the arts and write scripts and produce television and feature films, it's really an uphill battle."

"I think when actors deal with the issues of racial representation, it's a lot deeper than answering the question of an accent," he adds. "Because there is so much more at stake in terms if whether or not that role will get you another role that may be more challenging and so on."

Showing the flaws of Bollywood to offsett the flaws of Hollywood is sloppy reasoning, since IA and other South Asian actors in the U.S. do not live in India, and therefore cannot try out for roles in Bollywood.

The portrayal of Indian men in Hollywood is all over the map, but there does seem to be trend towards using Indian men as comic relief. Kumar Pallana's roles in The Terminal and The Royal Tennebaums; Deep Roy played all the Oompah Loompas in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - when you need a quirky odd fellow, cast an Indian male. Ajay Naidu made strong use of his role in Office Space. But while these actors acquited themselves admirably in these roles, they cannot be said to demonstrate the masculine qualities that a number of brown dudes are hoping to see on screen.

Although Naveen Andrews does have a strong female following, thanks to his role on "Lost", it has been pointed out that he plays an Arab on the show. Hollywood seems to go to extremes in its portrayals of Arabs, from romanticising them in films such as The Sheikh and Lawrence of Arabia to assorted terrorists in action films. In those rare Western films where an Indian male is featured as a romantic lead, it is usually in a low budget flick like The Guru or soon to be released Marigold.

And unless she is portraying an overbearing mother, most Indian women in Western productions are shown in an attractive light, from Shabhana Azmi in Madame Sousatska to Aishwarya Rai in Bride and Prejudice. On this week's episode of ER, the character of Neela Rasgotra will marry former collegue Dr. Gallant, an African-American. Briefly, Dr. Chen on the same show was romantically linked with 2 black men, and that is the same case on Grey's Anatomy. No Indian or Asian male doctors, if TV is any guide.

One actor who does not get that much press, but should, is Ravi Kapoor of Crossing Jordan. It's definitely a female oriented show, but on those episodes I've seen, Kapoor makes good use out of his character. In fact, in interviews, he stated that he had to put pressures on the writers, because a number of early episodes have used his character as comic relief. Since then, he can be sacrastic, smart as a whip, and even getting into running arguments with his coworkers

Ennis,

I'd rather be feared than mocked. You?

Neither. I'd prefer to be respected.

I am heartened by the great strides Indian men have made in the great American populist theater, known as wrasslin'.

Spealing of Indians in Holywood, the trailer for M Night Shyamalan's new movie is out:

Lady In The Water

But many people who loved the book were upset that the screenwriter slashed Kip's story (the sapper was crucial to Ondaatje's condemnation of the West) to focus more on the romance between the goras.

Of course, since Ondaatje wrote the screenplay, the book-lovers grumbled in quiet confusion.

movies aren't everything, i don't think that desi men have a problem in general

I am half Pakistani, and 1/4 Irish, and 1/4 German

Gray's Anatomy is pretty clueless. One would think that with Americans of Indian Origin being so numerous in Med Schools they'd find at least one for the cast.

I blew glass at University of Illinois, and actually received a degree in it.

So this is where all the good looking women on campus were hiding at, in glassblowing classes. Screw engineering.

GO ILLINI!!!

I blew glass at University of Illinois,

uh...sounds like the first corny exchange between James Bond and the heroine...

Hey!!! Don't dis the glass blowing. It's totally awesome. I saw my first glass blowing up close as an Advanced Chemistry student in high school--an exercise in glass blowing, gas chemistry, and electronics, to make our own neon light signs. Totally awesome--and very fearsome, once I tried it myself and managed to get seriously burned. The science, art, and craft of dealing with hot glass is astonishing. Glass can get very hot before it glows red. I'm sure my fellow ochem sufferes (Brimfuly? Anyone?) will remember the difficulty of making micropipettes over bunsen burners. I have friends who perfected the art of rotating single molecules of DNA with carefully pulled glass pipettes made from capillary tubes (and they used lego too!!! if we ever meet in person, remind me to tell you of how a pair of tabla fit into this whole episode.) The glass pulling part was hard! Any chemistry department worth its salt adores its glass blowing shop. I'm a huge fan of glassworks in general. On my recent family vacation I saw glassworks in Victoria, Canada, and went to the Tacoma Museum of Glass. It's amazing, beautiful stuff, requiring a lot of diligence and skill and knowledge. She clearly has some interest in fine arts, since her website has a (admittedly spare) fine arts component, and UIUC's art department boasts glass blowing facilities on its sculpture page. It's true she doesn't list a BFA or MFA on her resume, but she does call it her *theatrical* resume. It's entirely plausbile she got a BFA at UIUC, and her thesis show involved a lot of glassblowing. "Practice, time and patience" seem like a good answer.

Just sayin'. :-)

sure my fellow ochem sufferers (Brimful? Anyone?) will remember the difficulty of making micropipettes over bunsen burners.

Amen to that, sister. :) However, I wish you wouldn't call it "sufferers"- some of us loved ochem. Okay, one of us loved it. Manipulating glass is no small task.

I think her turn of phrase could have used some polish however:

I blew glass at University of Illinois

"Kill the men, fuck the women" is fine, as far as it goes.

But why blame the actors? (Your title was "Come on, Naureen," right?) I find it strange that your frustration with Hollywood power (valid) is expressed as a somewhat condescending swipe at the actors trying to break in.

(And I have to agree with What Hypocrisy said -- http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002557.html#comment35548 -- even considering your previous comments (http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/000200.html#comment152). I mean, Why is it "Come on, Naureen" and not "Come on, Naureen and Neil"??)

Yes, I suppose you can take the high moral ground by saying such desi actors perpetuate the stereotypes. But I think it's unfair and unrealistic to blame them. It's pretty similar to someone running for political office for the first time and she takes money/contributions from some company and you say, "Oh come on, young wannabe politician" It's like you're speaking from an ivory tower. That's part of the game, and the game -- the system -- is stacked against you. You have to compromise somewhat to play in that game. It takes a saint to not compromise and somehow still succeed. So, in short, to me, it sounds like you're saying to every would be desi actor: Be a saint. Generally speaking, saints don't get into politics or film.

Pablo's reply (http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002557.html#comment35516) tries to preempt the usual "it's tough to be a desi actor" answer. But in fact, that really is the answer.

An outsider might not appreciate how crazy the entertainment game is. A old Hollywood joke comes to mind. It was a real eye-opener for me when I first heard it, and hopefully it gives you a sense of how crazy-tough this industry is --

Young Wannabe Starlet meets Big Film Agent and says that if he puts her up for an audition she'll have sex with him tonight. The agent replies, "Okay, what do I get out of it?"

That is the environment. In fact, I'll give you one example to illustrate I hope how far off your swipe seems to me. I'm in entertainment. It's what I do everyday. I'm like lower/mid-level power -- I can help make someone's career and others can help mine. Recently I announced a project and within the first week, five women propositioned me. I'm not kidding (and I'm not deluded). I should clarify: It wasn't just 5 women, but 5 actresses. Attractive. And yes, desi. And although I did not take advantage of those women, the point is that it's very very tough for someone like Naureen (whom I don't know at all personally, btw) to be competing in an environment like that. Any woman. Any color. And she's got a clock ticking, because once she hits 30 it somehow instantly gets ten times harder.

(For the record -- and to put my ego in check -- I should mention I received exactly 0 / Zero/ Nada propositions the week before!)

That's the environment -- the context. People will do almost anything for a crumb of a chance at 2 mins with a casting director for a shot at auditioning with 200 other actors for a bit part.

The real thing is not so much what roles a young struggling actor plays, but how they comport themselves in such a crazy environment. (You're not saying playing a loose woman role means the actress herself is immoral, are you?)

One last thought -- sorry to be so long-winded. Personally, I don't think she should have done it. And right now, come to think of it, I know a VERY famous Indian actress who's in a tight spot in her career and has recently been offerred a great role, but one that requires some nudity. And it's not an exploitative situation at all -- the role really requires it. Still, personally, I really *hope* she doesn't do it. But she didn't ask for my opinion. She's still deciding for herself. And I don't feel it's my place to say "Come on." I think she -- and Naureen and Neil and all the other pioneers -- have enough dilemmas to face without us second-guessing them.

As Kal Penn's article implied, if you really want to help change the situation, focus on the writers, directors and producers -- and, if you can, the investors. "Come on, Filmmaker/Financier" seems more appropriate to me.

Thanks for letting a longtime loyal lurker finally vent.

Regards to all,

Zack

Why is it "Come on, Naureen" and not "Come on, Naureen and Neil"

It's a pun on a song title.

You're not saying playing a loose woman role means the actress herself is immoral, are you?

I couldn't care less about the toplessness, which I'm sure I appreciated at the time. The dig here is different.

... I think it's unfair and unrealistic to blame them.

This post is primarily a critique of Hollywood-- note I said "Patil's resume shows Hollywood offers...", not "Patil's resume shows he took roles with..." But since you brought it up, neither does the actor write the script, nor is s/he totally powerless in how s/he chooses to present himself/herself.

Sorry -- I totally missed the pun on the title and misread the thread as a post about actors and the roles they take.

I remember reading an interview where Kal Penn discusses the crisis of conscience he suffered when offered the role in "Van Wilder" (a film I've never seen.). He considered the role demeaning and stereotyped, and asked his mentors what he should do.

Their answer was: It's a role in a major film; you know what to do.

So he took the role, which, as he tells it, led to better, more "enlightened" roles down the road. (If "enlightened" is the right word for "Harold and Kumar").

He considered the role demeaning and stereotyped...

It was demeaning and stereotyped. But he subverted it, stole the hiring scene and made it his own.

You have to compromise somewhat to play in that game. It takes a saint to not compromise and somehow still succeed. So, in short, to me, it sounds like you're saying to every would be desi actor: Be a saint. Generally speaking, saints don't get into politics or film.

Dude, you are talking as if every desi actor/actress out there in the pipeline is of Oscar quality. Well, then the problem seems to be the babudom of agents. These people probably should not hold the kind of power they do today.

That is the environment. In fact, I'll give you one example to illustrate I hope how far off your swipe seems to me. I'm in entertainment. It's what I do everyday. I'm like lower/mid-level power -- I can help make someone's career and others can help mine. Recently I announced a project and within the first week, five women propositioned me. I'm not kidding (and I'm not deluded). I should clarify: It wasn't just 5 women, but 5 actresses. Attractive. And yes, desi. And although I did not take advantage of those women, the point is that it's very very tough for someone like Naureen (whom I don't know at all personally, btw) to be competing in an environment like that. Any woman. Any color. And she's got a clock ticking, because once she hits 30 it somehow instantly gets ten times harder.

What on earth does "propositioned" mean?

Naureen seems to be everywhere now.

Probably not work safe.

Naureen in Maxim

i think you all need to look at all desi actors before you judge neil and naureen, kal penn took a demeaning part in van wilder while he too has a turban in one scene that is makeshift. van wilder was a hit and got a lot of exposure but showed a desi actor being stereotyped on a mass level. sounds like almost all desi actors have to suffer the brunt. its nice m night and shekar are doing well, why don't they make a movie and use desi actors in non traditional parts? maybe becuase on a whole east indians don't help their own like hispanics and blacks do. speaking of which both those groups still suffer from stereotypical parts too. asians are either druggies, nerds, and martial artists. wb's beauty and the geek has an indian ankar, on it. that's not good either

i think this entire blog is a fools errand. you all have nothing better to do than complain about an industry that has proved itself to be reacist, political, and unpractical, no blacks in new york city according to friends. that says it all....
i can honestly say out of all the countries i have lived in india has a problem with its people refusing to work together. indians are very sucessful but they refuse to work together. you're all bashing other indian performers when you should support them. no on aspires to be a arranged wife, terrorist, van wilder geek aka kal penn, or any other stereotype ...look at the blacks and hispanics or the belief that all asians are martial artists. they are just paying their dues to a hopefully better future, yes jay and m night are successful, why don't they create a small film with good parts for indians? because they got there and don't want to help, let other indians make their own way just like desi society, the right family, the right credentials, the right college, occupation, the more appealling for an arranged marriage , ennis and sunil and whoever else all the indian women who bad mouth each other behind their backs, bollywood is no better, all tall light skinned men are heroes ,
fat and bald people are supporting players, bride and prejudice a film that says white men are better and indian men are geeks, great?
all of you get a life, make your own lives strong and don't judge others on things you don't understand, stereotypes take time to be destroyed , the blacks and hispanics have still yet to do it completely and they have been here longer than desis,...capice.

Check out Naureen Zaim on AskMen.com or read her latest interview here.

Hollywood tries to create an image of indian and other asian women as independent and selfconfident, when in reality they are treated as nothing but the white mans prey.

Who are they trying to fool?

hi...........nice photo ok........