well thats what a singh gets for being a missionary.
2 smug western religious cultures duking it out. aah may be thats good for me.
Most missionaries shit in their pants if they R asked to go to afghanistan or Saudi Arabia...So why hide behind
peace activist label when in iraq.
I'm hoping indians learn this lesson well(and of course i know some of u folks will raise grahm staines etc)
so for you tear dropper Dara Singh that got elected was not the dara singh who 'allegedly' killed him which blindly all your sites proclaim.
Its high time the hindu's buddhist,jains, sikhs, animist, taoist, shintoist all indulge in such activities like the west. Its survival of your culture.

CPT is NOT a "Christian missionary" group--they do not attempt to engage in any form of preaching or proselytizing. They do peacemaking work similar to that of Peace Brigades International and various "human shield" groups like ISM, and although their values and mission are certainly "faith-based," they don't evangelize. I've met several people from their Hebron-based Palestine team and was very impressed by their commitment and quiet, sustained efforts to protect vulnerable communities on the ground. I hope these hostages are safely released.

CPT is NOT a "Christian missionary" group--they do not attempt to engage in any form of preaching or proselytizing.

Yes, perhaps they aren't missionaries in the traditional sense. From their website:

The CPT experience has demonstrated that teams of four to six people trained in the skills of documentation, observation, nonviolent intervention, and various ministries of presence -including patience - can make a striking difference in explosive situations. Full time teams in places like Hebron are needed where the contending parties simply cannot be convinced to make changes in the distribution of power so that road to peace becomes clear. Hebron typifies a conditions in which one party has most of the power and the other has little. Until both parties have hope for a fair relationship that begins at the negotiating table the conflict appears unresolvable. CPT workers try to emphasize or encourage nonviolent methods for redress and get in the way of violence when they can.

CPT believes that similarly organized groups of trained peacemakers in urban and rural settings around the world can provide important intervention in local conflicts. Often these conflicts are accentuated by abusive behavior of law enforcement or other security forces. In other cases police and soldiers are the front end of fundamentally unfair policies.

Now after twelve years word has spread about CPT work and creativity. Groups in urban areas of North America, native people, and numerous third or fourth world churches have contacted CPT to explore projects. If support can be consolidated this will be a major area of growth. To do this, the three and a half week training component of CPT will be adapted for local settings to connect with traditional styles of nonviolent change present in every culture. With significant growth in CPT capability, larger teams can be deployed in situations of severe crisis.

CPT is a grassroots effort and most of its support comes from church members, congregations and meetings. Full-time workers are compensated according to need. This pattern allows for enormous flexibility and financial frugality. The original call for a Christian Peacemaker Teams was informed by the scriptural encouragement for creative public ministry and enemy loving in the spirit of Jesus. The Peace Churches have brought an important gift to the table; namely, the absolute refusal to kill in situations of conflict. As others join this movement to find ways for justice to happen without killing, they will bring their own special gifts to build the work. As Christians lay aside the weapons of destruction usually controlled by the culture of the mighty, the surprising power for transformation becomes a miracle available to redeem all of human kind and the earth itself.

well thats what a singh gets for being a missionary. 2 smug western religious cultures duking it out. aah may be thats good for me. Most missionaries shit in their pants if they R asked to go to afghanistan or Saudi Arabia...So why hide behind peace activist label when in iraq.

I wouldn't really care if they were proselytizing. It's just door-to-door sales, after all. What's the harm? And I don't know what it is that makes one religious culture smug and another not smug. If smug means confident, well that's what true belief is going to make anyone feel.

It's more intolerance that I would fear, and which, yes, adherents of the three Jehovah-based religions, mine (Judaism) included, can fall prey to, largely due to their emphasis on ideology.

These gentlemen probably shouldn't have been doing thir work in a war zone, though. They're going to get some soldiers killed.

I wouldn't really care if they were proselytizing. It's just door-to-door sales, after all. What's the harm? And I don't know what it is that makes one religious culture smug and another not smug. If smug means confident, well that's what true belief is going to make anyone feel. It's more intolerance that I would fear, and which, yes, adherents of the three Jehovah-based religions, mine (Judaism) included, can fall prey to, largely due to their emphasis on ideology. These gentlemen probably shouldn't have been doing thir work in a war zone, though. They're going to get some soldiers killed.

you made three statements - the first was not relevant to any fact i've seen so far on this subject. the second was a conjecture with too broad a sweep to have any meaning in the present context - the third is a disturbing assertion for which i hope you have back-up. i dont get your point

Maybe they changed their job description from Christian Missionaries to Peace Activists because they felt they would be less of a target to the Islamic fundamentalists.

Unfortunately, they probably didn't realize that under this new description, they were now vulnerable to rogue CIA agents. Anyone want to search Abu Graib to see if they're being held there?

I hope and pray they make it home safely. . .what a sweet face.

Maybe they changed their job description from Christian Missionaries to Peace Activists because they felt they would be less of a target to the Islamic fundamentalists.

well thats what a singh gets for being a missionary.

WTF?! Where do you see that anyone changed anything? they're QUAKERS for crying out loud! WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A QUAKER KNOCKED ON YOUR DOOR TO WITNESS? They've ALWAYS been about working for peace.

I'm sorry, but this attitude of sloppily conflating everything and anything is seriously pissing me off.

All of those who attack this group just b/c the word Christian is in their name--you should be ashamed of yourselves. Regardless of any subtle discussion of the fundamental human right to witness and preach and convert and also the extreme unliklihood that anyone would be stupid enough to try to witness and preach in today's Iraq, this is just sloppy, sloppy commenting. Some of the best and most effective "fighters" for peace in this country have been the Society of Friends, or the Quakers. There have always been Christians who fought for the poor and the oppressed, oftentimes without witnessing or preaching. When you're ready to walk to the gallows to fight for abolition or defy Hitler, then maybe you can trashtalk about people working for social justice because they are inspired by a faith in Jesus and the teachings of Jesus. Stop lumping and conflating every single thing that happens under the general title of Christianity together in one bag.

---your cranky neighborhood Hindu.

Good point. Were I to have attacked this group because the word Christian was in its name, I SHOULD be ashamed of myself.

Since I did no such thing, my conscience is clear.

Now who's conflating?

How do you know he is a missionary? He could just be a charitable worker. Islamic Relief has non Muslims that work for it, as does Christian Aid.

The comment about how they deserve it made by someone above is really stupid, unthinking RSS stupidity.

The attackers-should-be-ashamed of themselves was aimed at the nonbeliever who wrote this, "well thats what a singh gets for being a missionary.
2 smug western religious cultures duking it out. "

the rest of it was aimed at people who assumed that these people only recently stopped prosletyzing and started working for peace, just b/c of Iraq.

Sorry if I was a bit harsh, but I'm vaguely annoyed that we're talking about their prosletyizing, when they almost certainly weren't trying to do that (based on the fact that Quakers usually don't) and seemed less concerned about their well-being in these dire times.

actually its not unlikely that a singh could join in a peace mission sponsored by another religion. this whole line does not make sense if you take the time to learn even a little bit

its all about the peace here and i think most people see that

It's not that it would be unreasonable or unbelievable that these people were prosletyizing since tons of missionaries flooded into Iraq in the last few years to do just that.

Elizabeth clearly made the point that this group does not do that. But even if they had, they certainly don't deserve to be kidnapped by these demented, idiotic morons. I am certain they are too stupid to know the difference between peace activists and missionaries and also they are too disgusting to care.

Going into a war ravaged country to preach your gospel is horrible, because it's taking advantage of desperate people but if these insurgents had any faith at all in their religion they wouldn't need to resort to such violent means to combat them. I agree and admire that statement of the CPT who stated that this situation was the fault of the violent attack of Iraq by US and UK forces but I think they should feel justified in blaming the kidnappers as well.

Regardless of any subtle discussion of the fundamental human right to witness and preach and convert and also the extreme unliklihood that anyone would be stupid enough to try to witness and preach in today's Iraq, this is just sloppy, sloppy commenting.

Well, that actually occured. As Zoraster noted above, missionaries DID go into Iraq right after the initial "victory" to convert. Because dont forget this is a religious war for them. Saddam was paying 25K to suicide bombers family in palestine and that was a threat to the Israelites, which threat (Saddam) had to be dealt and this is all in connection to the second coming (or Rapture) !!!
The CPT's statement (and all the comments) which was noted earlier makes it preety clear what they stand for. My prayers for the safe return of these people.

what i wanted to point out was that for a singh, it is not unusual to join a peace mission sponsored by another religion.

not that the singh would go to proseltyize for another religion, but that, as a singh, it's in keeping with the faith to join with other people to do good work in the way this man might have done

isn't anybody else outraged that the christian group is blaming the u.s and the u.k for the plight of their volunteers.....what nerve?
i don't care whether they were there proselityzing or vacationing.....all i understand is that they were all adults aware of the possible consequences of their actions.

and, why don't those so called peace activists go [in similar numbers] to sudan, where the christians are being massacred by the arab muslims or go to other hotspots around the world besides the palestine or iraq......
we all know why,becaue it is not "cool" enough.
i am truly disguted....such naked hypocrisy.
the U.S.and the U.K. are not the only villians.....
china gobbled up tibet and supports some of the most unsavory regimes in the world...yet, you will not find sooden et al risking their ass in lhasa...or myanmar....
sorry for the rant.....couldn't take it any more....and am out of my medication.
time for the refill.

and, why don't those so called peace activists go [in similar numbers] to sudan, where the christians are being massacred by the arab muslims

Good point, although I should add that the people who'd been massacred in Darfur/Sudan were Muslims themselves, albeit of African ethnicity.

whocares, the war between Northern Sudanese Muslims and Southern Sudanese Christians ended several years ago. The current situation between the Government backed militias and Darfur region rebels is a conflict between Muslims and is also not a 'real war' as much as a horrible human rights violation that requires much more intervention than is possible by peace activists.

Your assertion that they are just looking for 'cool' conflicts because they aren't involved in every other conflict around the world is completely ludicrous. First of all, I seriously doubt if you know whether or not they are or aren't in Darfur, Tibet or Myanmar. But even if they are not, it does not illegitimize the work they are doing in Iraq and Palestine.

As far as criticizing the US and UK, they are absolutely correct in doing so. If not for the illegal, unnecessary, and utterly inept actions of these countries there would be 1. No Insurgency and 2. No reason for peace activists to be on the ground in Iraq. If the US bothered to do body counts of Iraqi civilians, Marla Ruzicka might be alive today as well instead of doing the US/UKs work of pretending to care about dead civilians.

These kidnappers are the most idiotic and disgusting creatures to roam this planet and they deserve the blame for this incident, but the fact remains that none of this would have happened if not for the greed and hysteria of the most powerful nations on Earth.

firstly, the majority of the people being, yes being killed in sudan are animist and christian or african [read negroid] ancestry.
i am not sure whether the christian org sent its soldiers to wage peace...but if iwere a betting man, i would venture that they did not. i will confirm and report back.
btw, zoraster,i will spare you the raionale for the iraq war...that will get us no where. you have your reasons and i mine. however, since it is the number of lives you are concerned about....how many lives would have saddam continued to snuff out had he remained in power...if we average his record for the last decade...it would certainly beat the current numbers.
and i can't resist asking. did you also oppose the balkan intervention?

As far as criticizing the US and UK, they are absolutely correct in doing so.

Well, one Mr. Martin Van Crewald, who is a military historian at Hebew University, and is the author of a book "Transforming Military" which US Army has made required reading for its officers, had the following to say in article Costly Withdrawal Is the Price To Be Paid for a Foolish War

For misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C. sent his legions into Germany and lost them, Bush deserves to be impeached and, once he has been removed from office, put on trial along with the rest of the president's men.

Harmeet Sooden was part of the 'Students for Justice in Palestine' group at Auckland University (in NZ, where he studied engineering). I'm part of the same club and while I'm not a regular participater I've had some fair contact with Harmeet. I can assure anyone who argues to the contrary that Harmeet is not a preacher. His interests in Iraq are as innocent as they sound- to document the human rights abuses and protest against an illegal war. I might compare him to Gandhi in that hes a very soft-spoken person and a very gentle soul. I'll admit I'm prone to the same abrasiveness when I hear about 'Christian Missions' to places like Iraq so it would be hypocritical to point fingers, but like I said, knowing Harmeet personally I can see that many of these missions do not have to be motived by ulterior or hidden agendas- other than a concern for their fellow man.

The Romans lost 16 legions at Cannae. They lost 3 at Teutoberger (that so-called "most foolish war" Crewald is referring to). Crewald doesn't know what he is talking about.

Just as the Romans had plenty experience in defeating the Germans, America has had experience successfully fighting Iraq. It might not have been the right gamble to make, but it was nevertheless a reasonable one [from purely a military victory standpoint]. The Romans certainly had the capability to subdue the Germans and even annihilate them, but that wasn't exactly a priority. Iraq, like Vietnam and Varus' campaign, is a limited war where the tolerance for casualties is also limited.

Fighting with an arm tied behind their back, one must admit America has done well - certainly better than those three ill-fated legions fared. They haven't lost the equivalent of a single Roman legion yet ... let's keep that in mind. I'm not saying this war is going well, but let's avoid (or at least avoid quoting) exaggerations.

Harmeet Singh Soodan is a loser who joined a religious group to boost his self-esteem. Now he is probably going to lose his head in the bargain. Religion brings out the worst in us - in the losers who want to belong to a group and believe that their group is superior to the others. They try to go door to door to add more recruits to their group which makes them feel better. On the other hand, there are the other losers who don't like losing members of their group. They try to take the heads of people who try to convert. All-in-all, we have losers all around - some of them lose their heads in the bargain, literally.

Stay away from religion for peace of mind. Myself? - I never felt the urge to give cash for brainwash Sunday!

Isaac for ur information, u have no idea wat sort of a person Harmeet is, im a friend of him from nz!!! He was a genuine person who loves peace and believes in non-violence.. He had no one faith when comes religions and never gave a bad criticism about any religion…..i’m sure he only joined the Christian organisation to help underprivileged ppl around the world and promote non-violence through this organisation.

I would ask commenters please to be careful in throwing around suppositions that the CPT four might be spies, missionaries, or the like. There's plenty of documentary evidence--starting with copious records at http://www.cpt.org, but also by looking at many other sites--that these suppositions are mistaken. I also know, from my personal experience having worked with CPT in Haiti, Hebron, Chiapas, and Colombia, that these suppositions are mistaken, and that CPT as an organization and as individuals is really trying to walk its talk as it tries to explore how, nonviolently, to stand with people in situations of oppression.
While it might in other situations be okay to parade one's ignorance and misunderstanding on the internet (hell, there's no monopoly on ignorance), in this case you may well be providing ammunition to those who would justify killing these four captives on the basis of just the sort of supposition we see here. If you have REAL evidence that any of these people is working on false or hidden motives, then you MIGHT be justified in displaying it here. Lacking such evidence, you'd do better to keep your suppositions to yourself.

video footage [2] of the hostages. today a canadian islamic leader left for baghdad to try and negotiate their release. his plea on the radio was that the canadian peacemakers nothing but the iraqi people's best interests at heart. His org released the statement that CPT is

"... respected and well known to Muslim and non-Muslim Canadians alike for its dedication to justice in occupied Palestine, often under very difficult and dangerous conditions"

As a member of Harmeet's family, it is interesting to see that people care enough to waste a few precious moments not only deciding his intentions but also his fate. I am sitting in front of the net scanning sites for a peep, a sign, anything because the 2nd deadline has arrived. All the news channels we can watch are being watched. All our phones are within sight and reach. I dont think we remeber how to breathe properly since this ordeal started. Now, instead of dissecting Harmeet's faith, intelligence, intentions etc., May I request that you folks take a few seconds to pray to whomever you have put your faith in, for Harmeet and his team members' safe return to their families and friends and countless other people whose lives they have touched.
As for you, Isaac, when you find the meaning of the word 'loser' in its reality, I suggest that you stay away from mirrors. You might be shocked!!!!!

The latest

There has been no word from Baghdad so far this weekend on

[Islamic Congress envoy Ehab Lotayef] urged the kidnappers not to harm the CPT members. "They are a very strong eye of the West that takes the picture of the reality of what has been happening in places like Iraq, like Palestine, and says it clearly and people believe them. And as Arabs and Muslims our struggles need that picture to be conveyed to the West."

Calls to free the hostages also came from unlikely places on Friday.

One plea came from a British high security prison from a man waiting deportation, Muslim cleric Abu Qatada. He is sometimes described as Osama bin Laden's ambassador in Europe.

"I beseech my brothers in the Swords of [Righteousness Brigades]," he said in Arabic, "to release the Christian peace activists in accordance with the fundamental principle of mercy of our faith."

Stop being losers. He was trying to help others.
*****
well thats what a singh gets for being a missionary. 2 smug western religious cultures duking it out. aah may be thats good for me. Most missionaries shit in their pants if they R asked to go to afghanistan or Saudi Arabia...So why hide behind peace activist label when in iraq.
*****
They weren't missionaries you stupid git. It was a christian peace organisation. I'd like to see you go to Iraq.
He goes to the same Uni as me and I've heard some pretty cool stuff about him. Its sad to think that even though he went to help peace, others are critisising him. Go get lives.

As others here have noted, Quakers have been leaders in fighting against slavery, against capital punishment, and against war and violence. The Quakers I've known were deeply committed to non-violence, and were also very respectful of my Hindu religion. They are about as liberal and open-minded a group of Christians as you can find.

Not that any of this should matter to our wishing for the safe return of these brave people.

how easy it is to sit cozy and comment on someone like those who have done it.Harmeet is a very good soul and he is not easy to be understood for those who have critisized him as he is on a very different level of evolution of the self.I know he will come back safe and will continue to follow his heart.

This situation is a good example why Christians should not lose time sharing Gospel with roaring beasts.

Christians are only entering Iraq because of the US invasion forces there. Christian groups do NOT belong in an Islamic country, it is the ultimate disrespect of the Islamic religion. It is also the death penalty for any missionary to be in an Islamic country. And whether it is subtle or obvious, the intention of Christian Peacekeeping is about bearing WITNESS to the teachings of the Christian religion. If a Singh disgraced himself by shaving his beard and becoming a pacifist, he deserves what he gets. Pacifism is an idiocy that the Gurus preached against. A real Singh would have the power to oppress the oppressors to bring true justice. A pacifist only succeeds in insulting the Iraqi Muslims and destroying himself. This cause is idiocy. I feel sorry for him, that he followed a fools path. Let this be a lesson to all.

hey dingleberry. who the hell cares what you think about your regressive head in the ass personal beliefs when there's people's lives at stake. the kidnappers killed one of the workers in cold blood, a 60+ sweet old man after torturing him... and you piece of shit... you are thumping your chest about shaving. did you follow any of the conversation on this thread? do you read the newspapers? heck did you even graduate from junior high - or did you get your 'education' from some looney tune religious school. wake up. it's the 21st century.

The remaining three hostages have been released.

Just a couple of clarifications:

1) CPTers are not Missionaries. They are people who feel called by God to "get in the way" when people are being mistreated. Just because someone says "my faith compells me to do this act" does not mean they are actively seeking converts. Do people have to pretend they don't have faith just to work in the world without being accused of trying to convert people? I hope not.

2) Not all CPTers are Quakers. As a matter of fact, CPT was founded after the Brethen in Christ (BIC) thelogian, Ron Sider (author of such books as Rich Christians in the Age of Hunger and Completely Prolife) made a speech at the Mennonite World Conference. In his speech Sider said that if the traditional peace churches were serious about being pacifists then they had to be willing to put their lives on the line for peace. He said their peace activities were simply confided to being conscientious objectors then they might as well give it up now. There are Catholics, Mennonites, Quakers, United Church of Canada Members, and a whole lot of other denominations as well.

3) Harjas if "A real Singh would have the power to oppress the oppressors to bring true justice." then why aren't you over there oppressing the oppressors? Real easy to critize someone else. Not so easy to act.

And for that matter, it's not at all clear that Harmeet Singh has converted to Christianity. (If someone knows for sure, please feel free to correct me.) The Wikipedia reports that he is a Sikh (and it says "Of the Sikh faith" so I don't think the person who wrote it meant that he was culturally a Sikh.) On the other hand, I thought CPT required a statement of faith before one could join. So things are a bit muddy on this point.

Dunno about Singh's religion, but according a story on Canada.com, he was born in Zambia. http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=3f1bdc2c-4ab4-458f-9eb8-29a8905c6f21&k=27212

(I just had to update)

According to thisHe's Christian. According to the wikipedia (as pointed out before), he's Sikh. But from Kashmir. And he has lived in Auckland for 3 years. But was born in Zambia (where his father still lives) and his sister and he lived in Canada for a while. Also, for a second I thought the Eastern Menonites were praying for him (Turns out they were holding a vigil for all the hostages, Tom Fox, who was killed, went to EMU). Glad at least Singh, regardless of his hotch-potch background, is out safe!

To whocares who asked why they CPT doesn't go to Sudan...There's a couple of reasons and they have nothing to do with "cool".

Firstly, CPT never goes in on their own. They always have an invitation from someone on the ground, because otherwise there is very little point being there.

Secondly as to why CPT isn't in Tibet or Myanmar...It would be extremely difficult for CPT members to get visas to allow them to go into these countries.

Thirdly, once they are invited, CPT goes through a discernment process to see if what that they can do in a given situation, and to see if they have the people necessary to carry out the work.

Off the top of my head, I can tell you that CPT has worked in Palestine and Iraq, yes, but also Columbia, Mexico (Chiapas), Haiti, Bosnia and Canada. (In Canada they monitored a standoff between First Nations fishers and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans at Burnt Church NB and patrolled the property of a First Nations Reserve in the Windsor, ON area that was being vandalized by people spray-painting hate slogans.)

I am deeply sorry at the loss of their colleague but am glad they made it out.

On a lighter note... I heard on CBC that Prime Minster Harper called the two canadian activists today to pass on the nation's best wishes. Non-Canadians may not get the humor in this. When the hostages were taken, the liberals were in power. Mr Harper's conservative party, which is not held in esteem by anti-poverty activists in Canada, was the opposition. Imagine their consternation on being told that "Prime Minister Harper is on the line...". "what the... "