Growing up in a town in the west of England with hardly any desi's or African-Caribbeans I also had the word Nigger thrown at me by racists. They didnt even have the good manners to refer to me by my true racist epithet, what with me being a Paki Bastard and all that.

Whenever I hear rappers use the N word I wince.

Italy is a bit behind some other countries in Europe over basic things like this - racism is a huge problem in their football stadiums - not only Italy - recently during a match the manager of the Spanish national team was recorded referring to Thierry Henry of Arsenal and France as an African monkey.

pablo,

yeah, i remember feeling the same sort of peevishness, i.e. "if you're going to be mean, at least be accurate!" etc.

not only Italy - recently during a match the manager of the Spanish national team was recorded referring to Thierry Henry of Arsenal and France as an African monkey.

i read this and immediately thought, "oh, so it's an ostrogoth/visigoth problem." yes. i know. highly random. my 10th grade history teacher would be proud.

You forced me into some wikipeding just there Anna!

Italy is a deeply racist country. When it does come to race and racism, I'm very thankful to live where I live. France has its own well documented problems, which have boiled over as of late. But Italy has had a chequered history since the war. Germany, of course their ally in the war, was predicted to fall behind countries such as Italy, which had suffered far less damage and was required to pay less reparations. Nazism and Hitler's followers were relegated to the sidelines in Germany and the country flourished, surpassing all other European countries.

However Italy did not go on to greatness. Mussolini, his followers and his family continue to play a major role in politics. His granddaughter is far right and very popular.

Taking football as an example - the Bundesliga has been far less troubled by racism in comparison to the Italian or Spanish leagues, but Serie A in particular. Just last week Marco Zoro, from the Ivory Coast, broke down in tears after continual monkey chants from Italian Internazionale fans, poor guy. Pablo refers to Luis Aragones, who is a f*cking degenerate.

Paulo di Canio performs Nazi salutes after scoring, has DUX tattooed on his arm (a reference to Il Duce) and used to be a member of a racist group. Lazio fans carry portraits of MUssolini and Arkan (Serbian war criminal). Swastikas are a regular sight. I don't like Italy. I don't know what Americans make of the place, you have a far larger Italian community than we do here.

Eastern Europe - a nascent power in football is WAY more racist when it comes to black players.

Wow, I can't even imagine ...

When it does come to race and racism, I'm very thankful to live where I live

Sometimes as British desi's we dont realise how lucky we are in Britain compared to what the situation is like in other countries in Europe. Britain is a fundamentally tolerant and fair society and British people have worked hard to make it so. Racism will always be there, but when you look at some countries on the continent (not all of them - some are better than others) you realise just how relatively cool the UK is.

+++++++

On a lighter note, there was some wonderful news over the weekend when Meera Syal and Sanjeev Bhaskar become the parents to a lovely baby boy. I cracked up when Sanjeev was asked for a comment by journalists as he left the hospital, and he said,

It's a boy, and we want it to be a doctor or an architect.

I wonder if these Italians know that their Italian brethren in the US and other countries were not considered to be real whites and were often referred to as "Guinea Negro".

With the Desis being the prominent minority in the US, there seems to be more racism directed at desis in UK when compared to the racism towards the desis in the US.

I meant 'With the Desis being the prominent minority in the UK'

Popular perception of Italy in the US does not include the racism angle. Most Americans (and I say this with a heavy heart, but it is so) don't think of the fact that Italy has a modern culture. We know it for pizza and pasta, romantic and dashing men, the mafia, its ancient culture, and a few nice cars. Most here are truly unaware of the racial tension in other countries unless it becomes major national news and football (soccer, to us) is NOT major national news here.

One reasonw why it is more difficult to be an overt racist in the US is because of academic movements like feminism, multicultural studies, critical race theory and whitness studies, where the elite majority culture turned the gaze on itself and interrogated its privileged position.

Secondly, there is no single dominant ethnicity in the United States, so its much more difficult to make a case for ethnocentrism here, unlike in Europe.

Italians are racist in Italy. Italian American are even more racist. The number one reason I only order pizza from Pizza Hut or Dominos.

You know my grandmother is Italian, and the truth is when I go to Sicily to visit her I dont encounter much racisim. Saying all Italians are racist is just a load of crap. We could all very well say the same about Indians, look how we are about skin color!!!!!!

Meera Syal and Sanjeev Bhaskar become the parents to a lovely baby boy

Wow, I bet he's going to be good looking. Poor kid. But an architect? Surely he meant to say engineer?

Hello Kitty (see what I did there? Hilarious!) I don't think anyone would try to insinuate that all Italians are racist, but all we're saying is racism is more prevalent in Italy than in Britain, for example. And yes, Indians are bloody racist too.

They didnt even have the good manners to refer to me by my true racist epithet

In my mostly whitebread private high school, there was this MASSIVE Chinese guy who played football and wrestled. One weekend when we played some rural football team, the country kids, who'd probably never seen an Asian, were baffled and called him the N-word, spic, wop, everything but the "right" one. He said he laughed and was like "At least call me a chink!" ;)

Bong Breaker,

Maybe Sanjeev paaji meant to say "Doctor or Accountant" ;)

With regards to your comments about racist Indians and racist continental Europeans -- you may be right there. Hell, if you ever browse the BBC Asian Network message board, you'll know that I myself have very recently had a run-in with a guy who fits into both of those categories -- although his racism is, somewhat ironically, directed towards his fellow Asians.

Perhaps there is something in the culture on the European mainland -- at least in some countries -- which encourages such attitudes.

Pablo writes:

>>Britain is a fundamentally tolerant... but when you look at some countries on the continent

Racism/Religious Fundamentalism etc are nothing but an extreme manifestation of self-indentity based on the context of the Other. At its roots lies the Ideology that drives it. The more dualist the ideology, the more intolerant its adherents will be.

Britain/Australia/NewZealand are Protestant cultures, which allows more room for expansion of self-identity, as opposed to Catholic cultures of Continental Europe. Hence you see that the former is more tolerant.

American ideology is the next step in the evolution of Protestantism, driven in large by Calvinism. Hence, there is even more room for expansion of self-identity, and hence it is more tolerant than Britain.

I've covered this in detail in a rather lengthy article:Deleted Scenes and Alternate Ending

M. Nam

Whoa, MoorNam you think Australia ISN'T racist?

I'm not buying this explanation and I would hardly agree that America is more tolerant than the UK. Maybe in a few spots, but the US has a far worse track record of race-hate crime. I think you've linked this piece before haven't you? I didn't follow it then and I don't follow it now.

The number one reason I only order pizza from Pizza Hut or Dominos.

I don't get the connection. However, you might want to reconsider ordering from Dominoes after reading how Dominoe's founder is an evangelical Christian who wants to found an Catholic-centered city in Florida: http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=76

(other than the fact that Dominoe's pizza really sucks!)

bong breaker asks: >>you think Australia ISN'T racist?

No. Compared to Continental Europe, Britain/Aus/NZ are less racist.

>>I would hardly agree that America is more tolerant than the UK

Trust me, it is. Empirical evidence of non-white people making it big in all walks of life is testimonial to this.

>>I didn't follow it then and I don't follow it now.

It takes time to sink in.

M. Nam

Trust me, it is. Empirical evidence of non-white people making it big in all walks of life is testimonial to this.

Indians seem to be doing ">http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=9880"> fine in the UK.

Thanks, Jatayu, for bringing up Tom Monahagn's less-than diversity-tolerant policies. When Monahagn opened Domino's Farms, a headquarters with extra space which Domino's leased to other businesses for office/shop space, the third party tenants were required to follow a very strict appearance policy (similar to the Disney Look-book I've bashed on, previously) as well as adhere to other Domino's Employee policies. Simply by renting space there, small and/or independent businesses were subject to Monahagn's dictatorial rule enforcement or else lose their leases. Seems a bit extreme, especially in liberal ole Ann Arbor...

pardon my horrid grammar and lack of ability to connect thoughts today.

The connection between saying Monahagn is not diversity-friendly, and the look-book is that many of his guidelines and rules limited items like ethnic or religious attire, jewelry, etc.

Need more coffee.

Empirical evidence of non-white people making it big in all walks of life is testimonial to this.

MoorNam you really seem to have a skewed picture of Britain and the opportunities it affords people who are ready to take them. Indians are doing very well in Britain and in every field desi's are excelling and succeeding - business (the richest man in Britian is Indian - Hindus and Sikhs are dotted in huge numbers in the British Rich List published every year) all the professions, politics, cinema, acting, music, sport(boxing and cricket), literature - the list goes on and on.

So your outlook is actually very innacurate.

No no MoorNam, Britain and NZ are LESS racist, Australia is on a par with Italy at best. Australia is further right than the US and they've treated aboriginals like shit for years. They still do, but because they cheer on Cathy Freeman suddenly it's all forgotten. All the racial problems you've had in the States like being 8 times more likely to be executed if you're black (sorry, what were you saying about America not being racist?) or racism in the police are carbon copied in Australia, only black people are substituted for aboriginal people. New Zealand is markedly different. A bit like the US and Canada!

Sure, it takes time to sink in, right. If it hasn't sunk in over a month or two, I doubt it will. Either I'm really thick (very possible) or the article is too off the wall.

Whether the UK is MORE or LESS racist than America is a pointless argument. As AMfD said above, there are more Asians in the UK proportionally so as an Asian you may receive more abuse here (although I've only experienced it a few times, thankfully). But as a black person, I'd rather live in the UK. Hurricane Katrina was a PR whoopsie for you fellas and racial harmony stateside, as far as we outsiders are concerned. Race-related murder is the States is way above Europe simply because your murder levels are way above ours. The USA is a big country, I don't think you can generalise about racism.

Domino's DOES suck!

Indians are doing very well in Britain and in every field desi's are excelling and succeeding - busines

Besides, in England Desis have REAL power as in, being able to get elected in OFFICE. I know that there are quite a few Desi politicians who are in the Parliament of UK.
Unlike US, where Desi gets called a 'Dotheaded terrorist' while running for a minor local govt. office.

That post is littered with errors, you know what I mean.

Need more food.

RC, true. Shame most brown politicians in the UK are such complete spanners. Whilst the dot-head incident which has been covered on here so well is hardly reflective of American politics on the whole, it's incredibly embarrassing. I could never imagine such a thing being said in the UK these days. Quite shocking.

All the racial problems you've had in the States like being 8 times more likely to be executed if you're black (sorry, what were you saying about America not being racist?) or racism in the police are carbon copied in Australia, only black people are substituted for aboriginal people. New Zealand is markedly different. A bit like the US and Canada!

Whoa Bongs! And here I thought you were a lover and not a fighter :-) New Zealand treats the Maoris quite badly. The oppostion party (which nearly won the last election) wanted to revoke the Anglo-Maori treaty which is the basis of nationhood there. Quite like the US pulling the plug on Native American treaties.

I agree with your assesment of American racism. Some things are just atrocious.

bong breaker,

Firstly, I did not mean to imply that you were intellectually challenged because you did not get my article. I've always read your posts with interest.

Secondly, UK does not even remotely comes close to the US in terms of assimiliation of non-white people. There is no version of Silicon Valley where people of various nationalities work together. Yes, desis have done good in Britain, but that's because they're so good that it's very difficult to put them down. Moreover, desis(Hindus, Sikhs and Jains) usually do well wherever they go. However, the way desis climb the corporate ladder in Wall Street or Silicon Valley is unique. I don't believe desis in UK/Aus/NZ have the same opportunities.

Yes, aboriginals have been and continue to be treated badly in Aus/NZ, but if the colonisers were Catholics, they would have been extinct. That's the whole point of my article. It's relative.

And yes, US has a long way to go. But desis have been in the US for only four decades and they've made their mark. In Britain they've been around for more than a century, yet they are still struggling.

M. Nam

Unlike US, where Desi gets called a 'Dotheaded terrorist' while running for a minor local govt. office.

rc, please do a little more research when making a blanket statement. sepia mutiny has profiled other politicians here where they were not called "doteheadded terrorists." my father has been involved in politics for a few years now and actually has been elected to a local position.

in any case, having lived in italy for almost 2 years, i felt that europeans in general were more racist than americans. what surprised me in general is how provincial they are. in italy, there is much more regional pride than in the states, with the "piemontese" (people in the region i stayed in) would often make fun of the other reginons (and vice versa.) it shouldn't be surprising, i guess, since italy was unified recently (in the grand scope of european history.)

"grabbing a female coworker’s ass wasn’t harassment"

It would be good to hear an italian woman's perspective on the issue rather than a shrill anglo-american feminist. My guess is it depends on the context. In Italy there is more hugging, kissing and touching between people than is customary in the US. In the US the arab male custom of kissing men on the cheek is regarded as homosexual behavior.

a shrill anglo-american feminist.

*shakes head*

i wasn't stating MY shrill feminist opinion. RTFA:

The supreme court is no stranger to controversial judgments.

In recent years it has ruled that "an isolated and impulsive" pat on a woman's bottom at work did not constitute sexual harassment, and returned a verdict that a woman could not have been raped because she was wearing skin-tight jeans.

and since you already called me shrill, i won't bite my tongue: there's your fucking context.

Yes, desis have done good in Britain, but that's because they're so good that it's very difficult to put them down. Moreover, desis(Hindus, Sikhs and Jains) usually do well wherever they go. However, the way desis climb the corporate ladder in Wall Street or Silicon Valley is unique. I don't believe desis in UK/Aus/NZ have the same opportunities.

This totally depends on which desis you're talking about and it depends on how people came into a country. And you can't ignore desi Muslims, who get pretty screwed racially and religiously (the BBC ran a recent article on how Indian Hindus were doing well in ed or the conomy, can't remember which, but that Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indian Muslims and Sikhs were all underperforming compared to their white counterparts).

Given the amount of social engineering that takes place in immigration policy, colonial histories, etc it depends. I'm not going to argue about which country is more racist since I think they're both pretty bad (and I agree with bb's assessment here), but I do think continental Europe has a more overtly hostile relationship with its non-white population. The US/UK is just more subtle in their rhetoric and in what's considered acceptable, in my opinion.

It would be good to hear an italian woman's perspective on the issue rather than a shrill anglo-american feminist. My guess is it depends on the context.

This is ridiculous - perspective has nothing to do with whether or not an act should be categorized as sexual assault or harrassment. Any court that says you could not have been raped because your pants were so tight that you must have helped your attacker take them off (thus consenting and subsequently not rape) is not standing up for women's rights, regardless of how affectionate a society is. Grabbing someone's ass or raping them has nothing to do with a culture of affection/familiarity. This is like arguing that rape is about getting laid. What kind of ridiculous line of reasoning is this? Is there a culturally variant context for murder? If not, then I can't see how this can be applied to sexual assault.

Whoa (again) MoorNam, you're really far off the mark.

There is no version of Silicon Valley where people of various nationalities work together.

Err....London? It's the most multicultural place in the world. I really am not sure where you get your facts from. Desis not playing a part in the financial world? My girlfriend works in the square mile as an investment banker and her office and all others have a higher proportion of non-white employees than their branches in any other country. I know this as I recently attended some evening for ethnic minorities in business.

Thirdly, since when have Asians been in the UK for over a century? Sure some have, maybe 1%. The overwhelming majority came from East Africa and India between 1950-1975.

As I said, it's meaningless to compare the two countries as we don't know enough about the other. What we see here are the ghettos of LA and New Orleans, Rodney King, James Byrd Jnr., your health system and so forth. You probably get an equally skewed view of Britain.

yet they are still struggling.

No they're not, as several people have demonstrated. Hell ask anyone else on here - are Asians in the UK struggling?

It would be good to hear an italian woman's perspective on the issue rather than a shrill anglo-american feminist.

Secondly, UK does not even remotely comes close to the US in terms of assimiliation of non-white people. There is no version of Silicon Valley where people of various nationalities work together.

Bong Breaker,

I'm going to have to politely disagree with you here. It probably varies according to one's own social circle and life-experiences, but in the business world here in the UK it is tougher for South Asians to reach management levels compared to the US, at least w.r.t Wall Street, Silicon Valley and "Big 4" consultancy. It's not just a matter of numbers -- Corporate Britain, including the financial sector, is perfectly happy to hire large numbers of desis in "Back Office" type roles (especially programmmers); however, the difficulties begin with regards to positions closer aligned to "the business" and non-techie management roles (exacerbated further by the fact that the I-Banking sector in the UK is culturally very much an "old boys' club"). The same applies to the consultancy sector too.

So, again, it's not just sheer numbers one has to assess -- it's the question of how many desis there are in genuine management positions. From personal experience, and the experiences of my own peer group, there is definitely a glass ceiling here ("plastic" ceiling would probably be a better analogy, as it's not "unbreakable", but there are greater subtle hindrances here compared to the US).

And yes I do know that matters are slightly different in the medical profession (my father's a doctor), although there can be some problems there too.

*Addendum

I'm referring specifically to Tier 1 investment banks and consultancies. Unless you're talking about programmers (including those imported recently from India), here in the UK they have fewer desis right across the board compared to their less prestigious rivals.

I'm referring specifically to Tier 1 investment banks and consultancies. Unless you're talking about programmers (including those imported recently from India), here in the UK they have fewer desis right across the board compared to their less prestigious rivals.

Interesting. The Mickinsey New York office may be 50% Indian-American. All of the investment banks have very substantial South Asian representation. Vikram Pandit came close to getting a shot at the helm of Morgan Stanley, before a power struggle forced him out.

Jai I'll have to disagree, er...back.

IB in the UK has a smattering of the old boys' network when it comes to trading. And the positive about the old boys' network is that it's colour blind. In medicine, banking, whatever - if you went to the same school as the boss you're sorted, doesn't matter what hue your skin is.

Goldman and PWC specifically said that their London offices have the ethnic make-up they desire and would like other international branches to emulate. Goldman employs more Asians than I'd care to guess at, but admittedly I haven't heard figures on them all.

Another friend has become the youngest director at Deloitte (he is Pakistani). When I visit the City, I am always shocked by how many brown faces there are and to be honest I find it weird.

Anyway, as I said about the other discussions with MoorNam, unless you know what happens on both sides of the Pond equally well, all this speculation is pointless.

Bong Breaker,

Without giving away too much personal information on a very public discussion forum, my own professional background involves several of the sectors we've been discussing. A number of these firms do have formal diversity initiatives in place -- although the extent to which this is implemented "on the ground" obviously varies according to the specific company and the various hiring managers. In any case, as I said before, it's not just a matter of numbers -- and yes there are a lot of Asians within both of these industries -- but the number at management level, and more pertinently, the number of Asian managers in divisions which are the most prestigious and enable them to have genuine power and influence.

Some divisions are more valued than others. Plus, of course, some areas within these sectors generally have more Asians than others too (traditionally and in terms of recent "targetting" of these roles by desis) -- but again, it's a question of how these areas are generally regarded with regards to prestige, competitiveness, and the "value" they are perceived to add.

But as you said, this question is best answered by someone with an equal level of business exposure on both sides of the Atlantic and with a sufficient level of management-level seniority.

bong breaker writes:

>>as I said about the other discussions with MoorNam, unless you know what happens on both sides of the Pond equally

I've worked in the US(mostly), Canada, UK, Austria, Singapore, Mumbai.

Jai - I loved the phrase "plastic ceiling"!!

M. Nam

The italian Supreme court also said the women are allowed to retaliate with an open fist. Cultural context determines acceptable behavior.

Kitty partys right..umm kinda.

We could all very well say the same about Indians, look how we are about skin color!!!!!!

I mean Indians ,to a large extent, are very conscious of their skin colour.
Fairness Treatment especially in case of women is a huge market BUT now they have come up with a fairness cream for men.

Hallejullah!

Now I can get married.

I used to think that apart from India, the US was the best place for Indians to live. It is interesting to me that many UK desis think the same way. Rather than try to put in my own plus points for the US, I like hearing that the UK is good and safe for desis and hope to meet and talk to some UK desis someday.

im italion im not racist i wasnt born in italy but i was raised by italions and norweigons so im like part mama mia whatever and part mighty viking lol

Well this is what aggravates me. Italian Americans are usually racist against mexicans, asians or other immigrants. But guess what? those God forsaken people are EVERYWHERE! They emigrated to every country in the planet!

And guess what? I'm from Argentina and these guys too over Argentina and are now racist against native americans there!
And against Bolivians!
And against Paraguayans!
And against Brazilians!
And against Dominicans!

And anyone who is not a white Argentine.

I am tired of these people being racist so please don't take my post wrong. I hate racism and I cannot stand these italians whose grandpa went to the US or Argentina freaking starving to death, AND THEIR SONS ARE NOW RACISTS! LOOK AT THAT? CAUSE THEY HAPPENED TO BE BORN IN THE AMERICAN CONTINENT!

NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!