Hmm.. Any specific cause for this sudden burst of racism or has this been going on for a long time? Sorry, I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to Aussie affairs. =X

Well, supposedly there have been tensions on this beach for some time (maybe any aussie readers can add what they know?) - two lifeguards were beaten up I think and some women are claiming to be harrassed by youth gangs, supposedly Muslim? I don't know the validity of these claims.

Anyway, what fools. The lot of them.

According to the news reports it has been brewing for a while over tensions between Austrailain Lebanese (a.k.a "lebs") and the local surfer dude population. The locals don't like the way that the Lebanese treat them etc. etc. When one of their own were beat up thet decided it was payback time. Read the article that Anna has linked.

"This break is for locals only, brah!"

okay, the article says that 'trouble' has been brewing for some time. And that a huge 'nationalist' party was planned for this day? If so, why were the police so obviously unmanned for the task of keeping order? Other articles I've read also mention texting and a sort of spontaneous gathering. This sort of thing happned in the riots in France. I'd be scared to be a police commissioner if it's so easy to mobilize this way - how can you have a rapid response.

What kind of thugs chase a young girl and try and rip her headscarf off? I literally feel ill.

When I was there Christmas, '03, the Indian cricket team was in town playing Australia. The Australian press (the Sydney Morning Herald) mentioned that the Indians in the crowd were openly rooting for the Indian team (like the Indians accuse Muslims in India of rooting for Pakistan), but it may have been true, because the local TV stations interviewed many downright ebullient Indians (after a test victory) with Australian accents. :-) They call the Indian cricketers the Swami Army--Swaaameee Ahmeee, as transfigured by the Australian drawl. Some of the white Australians showed up to the matches in turbans.

The Indian cricket team performed well; Laxman in particular had a great series. When he walked into an Indian restaurant (accompanied by his parents) where I was having dinner, many of the Australian women commented on how hot he was.He got celebrity treatment during his strictly vegetarian meal. What a difference from the geeky software engineer image prevalent in America. Here was a respected, world class jock. And they love their cricket there--I saw all these burly white guys in the financial district checking the scores at their lunch break.

He later had an arranged marriage to a Brahmin from his community. Man, the action that guy turned away. :-)

From what I know, there is racism directed against Indians in both Australia and New Zealand. An Indo-New Zealander told me that the Indians are called "curries". A doctor told me that her colleagues lament how they are being overrun by Indians and Chinese.

wow. scary. but also rife with implication. probably a lot more to it than a binary black and white

from this article:

"Authorities had expected trouble today after two violent incidents at the beach last week - an attack on two lifeguards on Sunday and a brawl later in the week in which youths turned on a media crew. A series of text messages then began circulating, encouraging members of two rival groups of beach users to attack each other."

Emphasis mine.

*I didn't realize this was tied to the beating of the medial crew I saw reported, which was pretty brutal.

**This whole thing should have been clamped down on hard before any violence ever got started....

Gangs of Lebanese extraction have been linked fairly frequently to quite a few highly publicised gang rapes in the southern suburbs of sydney (i.e. the places where the riots occurred). The "westies" tend to be of immigrant descent (usually, Lebanese, Vietnamese and Sri Lankan) and the "surfies" tend to be of white Australian descent. The surf lifesavers represent all that's good about the (predominantly white) Aussie lifestyle. So it's quite easy to spin something like that out of control and get a crowd riled up.

wow. scary. but also rife with implication. probably a lot more to it than a binary black and white

i agree that there's probably more to it, still doesn't warrant this type of retardery. chasing young girls and then triumphantly waving their headscarves like trophies? attacking police/emergency vehicles who/which are just trying to do their job? assaulting "their own" when they dare speak out against racism? shudder, cringe, wince.

I just got back from my honeymoon in Australia just about a month ago.... we were there for three weeks and I didn't notice any racism at all, and we traveled through both the big cities and small towns... in fact, every single person we encountered was incredibly friendly and nice.... however, we never made it to Cronulla. So, just from my own experience (which, of course, is only from a tourist's perspective) was that the majority of Australians were pretty egalitarian.

On the other hand, it's fairly clear that a greater influx of immigrants would correlate with a greater incidence of racism (until immigrants became accepted in society). And judging from Sydney, the number of immigrants (Asian, Lebanese, etc.) is not diminishing, which means that race riots would only increase over time.

that's some useful background info which i haven't read anywhere else, Vishra-- thanks.

Well, I wanted to post a defence of Australian race relations on the post on the Italian Court Ruling, where one poster suggested that Australia was on par with Italy at best. Far from it, I wanted to say, Ausltralia is light years ahead of Italy, it's on par (if not better) than the UK/US. Then Cronulla happened...

There have been some tensions with the Lebanese community fo some time, a few years ago two young girls were gang-raped by Lebanese Youths. The whole issue was given a nasty racial slant - partly because the youths made specific comments on the Australian-ness (read: Anglo-Celtic ethnicity) of the victims, and naturally the tabloid media had a field day. The Lebanese community in Sydney has been under pressure for some time now.

More information from the Melbourne braodsheet The Age www.theage.com.au and sister paper in Sydney, Sydney Morning Herald at www.smh.com.au.

The issue is definitely more complicated than black and white, as Raju suggests.

my impression is that there is a problem with lebanese muslims specifically. there are tensions between white ozzies and other groups (and hell, stuff between anglo ozzies and greek ozzies), but the gang rape issue is illustrative of a tendency for there to be organized and effective antagonism from muslim minorities toward majorities in many western nations. you can explain it away, but the overall pattern is there.*

to illustrate the issues that i think differentiate muslims from non-muslims, in my experience FOB east asians and non-muslim south asians tend to keep apart and keep to themselves when they hang out in public places. but, i've had several incidents where muslim males (they dressed with the whole schtick) were obviously irritated that my gf was wearing shorts in a park where they were congregated. one time a guy kept staring in an irritated fashion and all of us ended up glaring at each other and it was unpleasant. i've talked to other women who have had this experience with many "observant"** muslim males, they gotz issues with the ladies.

anyway, racism sucks. but there aren't any saints either.

* why doesn't it happen as much in the USA? i think because muslims are ethnically fractured and strongly skewed toward higher education. less ability to mobilize via common lines of affinity and less reason for resentment.

** they are observing a certain type of islam obviously.

Tensions have been steadily rising in Australia over the last couple of years between Muslim immigrants and the local population. I daresay a France like situation is going to erupt soon.

Gang rapist claims right to assault

By Natasha Wallace
December 10, 2005

THE eldest of four Pakistani gang rapist brothers has admitted lying at trial and apologised to his victims but said he thought he had a right to rape the "promiscuous" teenage girls.

MSK, 27, told the NSW Supreme Court yesterday that this was because the girls did not wear headscarves, were drinking alcohol and were unaccompanied when they went to his Ashfield home. MSK also blamed his intoxication, "cultural beliefs" and an undiagnosed mental disorder.

Gang rapist claims right to assault

but the gang rape issue is illustrative of a tendency for there to be organized and effective antagonism from muslim minorities toward majorities in many western nations.

Razib, could you provide examples? This is a pretty bold claim, and it also implies a kind of premeditation/strategy. I'm just curious, b/c my context is distinctly US-oriented.

I knew that far-right/anti-immigrant politics had more play in Australia but the intensity of this really surprised me.

I went through and read a lot of the articles from Australian papers on google news. This article from the Daily Telegraph (which i've heard has an anti-immigrant stance?) was the first of the initial raft that was more critical of the Lebanese role in the runup to this.

There is no doubt that many regular users of Cronulla beach feel, as do many Anglo-Australians (particularly women) who come in regular contact with large numbers of Middle Eastern migrants, that Australia's easy-going casual culture is under attack from young Middle Eastern males.

The reports of women being abused for being immodestly dressed, or travelling alone, or drinking alcohol, are too numerous to be dismissed.

The worrisome part is that the newest articles say gangs of lebanese people are out vandalising as some sort of retribution - and a white guy got stabbed. That doesn't bode well, hopefully cooler heads prevail. Someone's gotta realize how badly outnumbered they are.

An Indo-New Zealander told me that the Indians are called "curries".

Don't browns there call themselves curries too? Never knew it was that racist.

Razib, could you provide examples? This is a pretty bold claim, and it also implies a kind of premeditation/strategy. I'm just curious, b/c my context is distinctly US-oriented.

in the UK you have brown people, 1/2 muslims, 1/2 non-muslim. which group riots? now, granted, the muslims are not as well off, but i have been told (here) that mirpiris did not start off poorer than sikhs, who have prospered.

in france, you have blacks and north africans. which group is the locus for tension with society? the source of the greatest tension with the white french?

in the netherlands you have many immigrant groups, including christian ambonese from indonesia and hindus from suriname. but the problems occur on the moroccon-dutch fissure.

in germany you have many groups, including germans from russia (nearly a million of them showed up in the past 20 years from the former soviet union, many do not know german well), italians, spanish, etc. but the turks cause the big problems.

in spain you have muslims and non-muslims, the latter from latin america, the former from morocco. who blue up the subways in madrid?

each one can have explains which mitigate the impact of islam, but taken together i think it makes a persuasive case that muslims are particularly indigestable. this does not mean that i think muslims are NOT absorbable, but, i think there are repeated dynamics that are occurring. many of these nations there are muslims from one ethnic group who come to do low SES tasks. unlike black africans or hindu surinamese these muslims espouse a religion which has had millenia of interaction with european christian civilization, and a historical claim to superiority. i believe that the juxtposition between their abject inferiority (educationally, economically) vs. a vi the mainstream in comparison to their idealized image of themselves as superior to the kufir is problematic. this does not mean that hindus or sikhs do not exhibit attitudes of superiority, but, they come from societies which are segmented and so can acclimate to minority status. anyway, that is a simplistic model, saudi salafi ideology spread via petrodollars in diaspora communities plays a role. the israel-palestine question plays a role. there is nothing that that is determinate, but an intersection of variables makes muslims particular problematic. i don't think that's a bold claim at all.

blue = blew :) no, i'm not a retard. seriously.

ok, here is the sort of back-story of why i think non-neo-nazi ozzies have gone beserk: Muslim cleric: women incite men's lust with 'satanic dress':

A Muslim sheik told followers at a public meeting in Bankstown that women who were raped had incited men's lust by dressing immodestly and only had themselves to blame.

Sydney-born Sheik Faiz Mohamad, 34, a former boxer who teaches at the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Liverpool, made the comments during a lecture for more than 1000 people at Bankstown Town Hall.

now, thinking women are 'asking for it' is not a muslim view, it is relatively common in many cultures, and the west itself has worked hard to move past that warped set of values. personally, i believe that in complex societies hierarchy and stratification is inevitable to some extent, and ergo, i also think patriarchy is also inevitable (my reasoning draws from work that i have seen which suggests that males can form larger stable groups than females, etc.). some muslims are promoting reactionary views drawing upon an interpretation of their religion. liberals who lambast christian fundamentalists expressing anywhere close to this attitude tend to be less enthusiastic on piling on these types. not all diversity is good (depending on what your values are).

*mental note to update and re-read comments sections before posting

Apologies for repeating info others posted on.

Ananthan, yes, browns here took the sting out of "curries" and "curry munchers" as the Greeks and Italians took the sting out of "wog," we made it our own.

The Daily Telegraph is a strongly right-wing Murdoch paper that has long held anti-immigrant views. However, there has been a right-wing, anti-immigrant swing in media reporting and commentary recently. It's extremely worrrying.

There are reports of retaliation from Lebanese gangs in response, with about 60 men taking baseball bats to cars and a pub frequented by the Bra Boys club, whose members protested in large numbers yesterday. Turf War or Race War?

Ananthan, yes, browns here took the sting out of "curries" and "curry munchers" as the Greeks and Italians took the sting out of "wog," we made it our own.

That is EXACTLY what the NZ kid said: "we made it our own."

I forgot to mention the Sikh gurdwaras in remote parts of the North Island (NZ). Sikh dairy farmers have done well there.

Australia is fucked up. Has been for a long, long time. Southeast Asian refugees and immigrants have taken the brunt of it for a long, long time (see Romper Stomper starring a young and scary Russell Crowe) for a window on the madness. I wouldn't go there if someone paid me.

the aborgine community should yell, scream and tell all the white people to "go back to their country" then the rioters and their apologist justifiers will shut up

First, I would request that no one ever lump Australia and New Zealand together when it comes to race relations or anything for that matter. I am from New Zealand, and while it is not perfect, the willingness of New Zealanders to embrace other cultures is one of its strengths. I think it is highly unlikely that you would ever see any violence in New Zealand like what is described in the article. I have found racism much more prevalant in the every day attitudes of Australians, but having said that, I think it is important not to generalize about all Australians. There are racists everywhere. I live in New York and I encounter racism. The idea that reading this article etc would then lead me to say 'you couldn't pay me to live in Australia' is like me saying based on my experiences in say Texarkana I would never move to the US. Unfortunately, there are racists everywhere. I would just say the racists are a little more uncouth and blunt in Australia and less sophositicated than the ones on the Upper East Side who mistake me for a nanny...

I don't pretend to be an expert on the Leb/Australian community, but I believe they hail from an especially virulent, hardcore Shi'a background. Also if I'm not mistaken, this community spawned the horrible Dyab Abu Jahjah, who heads the horrible Arab European League. Jahjah moved to Belgium in the mid-80s after living thru the Leb civil war, where he is actively attempting to export to Belgium all the hideous notions that caused so much death and destruction in his home country.

My Japanese ex-girlfriend now lives in Australia. She reports that she can't go out on Pearl Harbor day - December 7, even though, as I recall, Australia was not attacked on that day.

Meanwhile my Japanese wife certainly faces occasional racism in the US, but December 7 passes unnoticed.

What's with Australia?

"but I believe they hail from an especially virulent, hardcore Shi'a background."

I think this is a pretty inflammatory thing to say without any basis of knowledge, as the speaker herself admitted.

What's with Australia?

i don't know, but the japanese were a far greater imminent threat to oz than they were to the us. they came might close to to cape york peninsula....

polling on racism in oz. note that attitudes are most negative toward middle easterners.

Hmm..am I the only Aussie to de-lurk here? :-)

Ex-Lawyer et al, I would say exactly the same things about Australia as being very accepting of other cultures and I would also have said that these sorts of race riots would be unimaginable here...Makes you wonder...have I been living under a rock or is it a Sydney specific issue?

It's been really interesting to see the perceptions of Australia and Australian racism overseas. It concerns me that people overseas perceive Australia as an incredibly racist country full of regular attacks on our Southeast Asian population. I've lived here for about twenty one years as a Sri Lankan descended Australian and have had few if any problems with racism. While there is an undercurrent of racism, as you say, it's generally pretty "average" racism that you'll find anywhere from the UK to the US. There's no hard and fast and every experience is different. Having said that there is a lack of minority presence in higher positions in Australian life - from boardrooms to politics though this is changing in the latter case. Mind you I will admit that a more subtle racism is now being preached by the media of late under the guise of "cultural" clashes.

NZ has certainly dealt better with the whole issue of indigenous peoples than Australia has and so it's possible that its acceptance of multiculturalism may be at a deeper level than in Australia. But is it really less racist? The current govt (from what I understand so please feel free to correct) is in coalition with parties such as NZ First.

Alot of us from places other than Sydney have been caught unawares by this, and the response from Sydney-siders I know has been "It's been a long time coming." The rest of the country is in shock.

But is it really less racist? The current govt (from what I understand so please feel free to correct) is in coalition with parties such as NZ First.

for readers out of the know, NZ first is headed by a man of at least part maori origin.

razib, you're right about attitudes towards the Japanese. It's more a generational thing here - the Japanese did attempt to invade and bombed Darwin during WWII. Alot of older Australians are still very racist towards the Japanese. Younger Australians tend to be less inclined that way..

First, I would request that no one ever lump Australia and New Zealand together when it comes to race relations or anything for that matter.

I am guilty of that conflation, and in my short stay I recognized that the two countries had very different cultures. I did also notice that lots of Browns from NZ had settled or were trying to settle in Australia, particularly doctors. That may be because there were more opportunities there.

Someone remarked that NZ is what England was fifty years ago, before it became the fucked up multiracial, atheistic cesspool that it is today (just kidding :)

I did also notice that the Maoris were in a markedly inferior economic postion in relation to the whites.

What's with Australia?

Autralia's treatment of the indigenous population easily rivals the American genocide/Manifest Destiny.

Consider this: In 1872, when the first settlers arrived in Tasmania, there were 5000 aboriginals (who lived by hunting, sewing and making fire); they had little contact with mainland aboriginals and so were terribly isolated. They did not know what to make of the Europeans.

By 1830, there were 72 left. They had been used for sex, slave labor, were tortured, mutilated, etc. They were hunted and their skins sold for govt. bounty. When the males were killed, the females were turned loose with the heads of their hubbies around their necks. Males were also castrated and children usually clubbed to death.

When the last Tasmanian was killed in 1869, he grave was opened by a European, and a tobacco pouch was made from his skin as a souvenir.

Prof. John Gray of the LSE has written quite a bit on aborigines.

Incidentally, the aboriginals (who I met selling 'native' souvenirs) look like South Asians; I wondered if there was an ancient link.

I also agree that its not appropriate to make judgements about all Australians based upon their history.

Incidentally, the aboriginals (who I met selling 'native' souvenirs) look like South Asians; I wondered if there was an ancient link.

well, there is an ancient link between all humans :) but yes, there is a minimal link, especially in southern india. it seems that the abos of oz swept out of africa via the indian ocean route, and some of descendents of this migration left their genetic imprint in southern india. though the physical similarity is greater than any genetic one (i.e., last common ancestor was probably 40,000 years ago :)

see the journey of man for more.

razib: yes, Winston Peters is part Maori but has also made a number of inflammatory comments towards migrants in the past, hence the reference. He has been made Foreign Minister.

yes, Winston Peters is part Maori but has also made a number of inflammatory comments towards migrants in the past, hence the reference

does that mean racism? i.e., the pogromish behavior highlighted above is entirely different from the comments and positions of winston peters. the maoris are already at a disadvantage vis-a-vi the whites, i can understand why they would be suspicious of newcomers. that doesn't mean i agree with that position necessarily, but, if i was a maori-first type i am not sure i would think any differently.

it isn't racist to want your country to be a certain way. that's why pakistan was created. that's why bangladesh was created. most of us here are immigrants or the children of immigrants, so we obviously empathize with the plight of those on the move and looking for better prospects. economics is not a zero sum game. but, sometimes people are marginalized by newcomers. oz & nz are cases in point.

from the articles, it seems like the people rioting are used to being violent. violent people tend to use whatever is handy. when a group of violent (young) men get together, they tend to just be idiots of any stripe. i wonder if this episode has more to do with ijiots using a diffuse racism to their benefit than an organized racist campaign? this might just be a young male turf war between the surfer gang and the lebanese gang. i have read before about lebenese gangs in aus.

i'm sure there is racism as part of it, but...a group of young toughs of any community aren't representative of much beyond the tendency of young men to be total and complete morons (especially if girls and beer and involved)

notwthistanding there might be more serious issues

razib, you're quite correct and I agree with you completely, it probably wasn't the best way to argue the point. It's more that NZ First, apart from being headed by a Maori, is an average nationalist, law-and-order anti-immigration party, and is in power-sharing. Ironically, NZF seeks to reduce compensation for Maoris from loss of native lands allowed under the treaty of Waitangi . We've had similar comments from Aboriginal leaders here. NZ is very similar to Australia in many aspects, though their response to indigenous issues are far superior to ours. My understanding is that your average rural NZ would be similar to your average rural Australian.

And I may be totally wrong :-)

it isn't racist to want your country to be a certain way. that's why pakistan was created.
My grandfather escaped from Karachi late. My mom preserved the skull cap till recently (not sure what happened to the burka). None of the desi countries are even nominally secular, except India. Theocracies are communal in the pejorative sense. And being communal is as wrong as being racist.

Southeast Asian = Vietnamese, Cambodian, Lao, Hmong. Not Sri Lankan.

Raju, you may have hit the nail on the head there.

Recently in a Sydney suburb, rioting youths clashed with police for over a week. Clashes between beach gangs in Sydney have also occurred in the past, and this may be another manifestation with a new edge of racism. However, there are reports now that such riots are possible in Melbourne due to "simmering tensions" in the community. Given that the media did beat up the scheduled protest in Cronulla as being a possible "race riot," it may inspire copy cat attacks down south.

Middle-Eastern..ers have borne the brunt of racism since 9/11, though from what I gather in the US it's desis have been frequently targeted.

Gizzard, yes I know that, I was referring to Rage's comment which pointed to Romper Stomper as a reflection of Australian society.

well, i've had three kiwis tell me that oz is racist (out of four i've known with any level of familiarity). seems like a common perception by kiwis.

By 1830, there were 72 left. They had been used for sex, slave labor, were tortured, mutilated, etc. They were hunted and their skins sold for govt. bounty. When the males were killed, the females were turned loose with the heads of their hubbies around their necks. Males were also castrated and children usually clubbed to death.

When the last Tasmanian was killed in 1869, he grave was opened by a European, and a tobacco pouch was made from his skin as a souvenir.

Pardon my language...but WHAT THE FUCK?! The more I see of humanity, the less I want to be human.

And being communal is as wrong as being racist.

fine lines. violence is wrong no matter what. but people like to hang with 'their own kind.' sometimes they want their nation to share common values, and yes, gods. there is not fundamentally wrong with that in my opinion, though i disagree with that attitude mostly because i'm a blasphemous fuck and diversity gives me greater leverage to play havoc.

partition was a disaster in implementation, but do you think india would be an amicable nation if 35% of its population was muslim??? 50% in the northern half of the country???

razib, it's all about experience i guess. i've never had problems, having spent my early years in tasmania in an all-white school and neighborhood, with three or four kids from other ethnic minorities (greek and italian, plus one aboriginal). i never experienced racism until i went to high school in melbourne where there is a much higher immigrant population. i'm sure people growing up in melbourne would tell you something different depending on their background and circumstances. from what I know from other desis, i would still say australia is largely non racist. you provided an interesting link on race relations in oz, and i would agree that this undercurrent has hardened into something more sinister under the Howard government.

in this vein, i've had the perception that the UK is/has been much more racist than Oz, from the perceptions of desis who'd lived there and come here.

[sarcasm] I've got it - we could have desis in Australia all wear T-shirts that say: We're not Lebanese! That would solve everything! [/sarcasm]

*Incidentally, the aboriginals (who I met *selling 'native' souvenirs) look like South *Asians; I wondered if there was an ancient link.
*
*well, there is an ancient link between all *humans :) but yes, there is a minimal link, *especially in southern india. it seems that the *abos of oz swept out of africa via the indian *ocean route, and some of descendents of this *migration left their genetic imprint in *southern india. though the physical similarity *is greater than any genetic one (i.e., last *common ancestor was probably 40,000 years ago :)

Yeah, we basically learnt in sociology in high school in mumbai when we were studying Indian tribal groups that all the racial groups are present in India - negroid, sino-tibetan and australoid. Probably had to do with Australia being joined to the land mass that was Gondwanaland before it split up and drifted to the Southern hemisphere... hence you have the animals evolving differently and all that.

Probably had to do with Australia being joined to the land mass that was Gondwanaland before it split up and drifted to the Southern hemisphere...

Australia's split 45 million years ago happened long before homo sapiens existed.

Yeah, we basically learnt in sociology in high school in mumbai when we were studying Indian tribal groups that all the racial groups are present in India - negroid, sino-tibetan and australoid.

you learned wrong. those terms don't mean much, and they don't even accurately describe what they mean to describe. to be short about, brown people are not an admixture of various groups as much as an ancient lineage of human beings which a shading and grading of various characteristics throughout the subcontinent. yes, there is something exogenous ancestry, but probably not much more than 10% of the ancestors within the last 10,000 years were born outside of brownwanaland.

manish, i have heard the gondwanaland explanation from several people! pretty hilarious, huh?

Nazism was much more than a 'White Sumpremist' movement as it is portrayed today by the capitalist media. Most of the 'White Racists' today, that the media gladly portrays as neo-Nazis have no clue as to the occult significance of Nazism, or the fact that Hitler was an Orientalist. Yeah ofcourse, they didn't like the jews, and Himler had a Genetic Fetish due to his early career as a paultry farmer, however upon close examiniation the assertion that 6 million jews perished in the Holocaust has proven to be as big and empty lie as 'Bid Laden was responsible for 9/11' (ever heard of the The Leuchter Reports?). Winners controls history, losers suffer condemnation. Thats the rule of war. I mean these Aussies and other 'white supremists' more often than not believes that 'Aryan' means Nordic! So....

Great comment thread all, the situation here has indeed been a long simmering one, however I blame the Govt. and the PM for allowing a culture of permissivness regarding this kind of behaviour (like all right wingers he thinks allegations of racism come with politically correct motivations so he allows the language of racism to be used as a rejection of PC) even today the PM has disavowed the idea of racism as an accelerator for this violence. He is of course nuts.

A simple word from him in that direction would go a long way, but he won't of course given his political history of ambivalence toward asian migration to Australia and the fact that this racist mob were mostly blonde beach types from the whitest suburb in Sydney.

Many folks of my political persuasion have watched in dismay over the past decade as the seeds of this were planted, first with the PM's pussyfooting around with the nationalistic anti migration One Nation crowd and now with anti-terror laws targeted specifically at muslims.

This has also been amplified by the usual tabloid press (mostly Murdoch owned) and shock jocks of the nastiest persuasion.

Anyway I do go on........I'm sure that by now we all know how this story goes, it's a scene played out for far too many years and in far too many countries to ever go away.

I'm quite disgusted by this country today.

Interesting comments flygirl..

*It only took 54 comments for the Holocaust denier to come out of the woodwork. That's a first for SM. Nice rajawati. And by nice, I mean the exact opposite.

Most of the 'White Racists' today, that the media gladly portrays as neo-Nazis have no clue as to the occult significance of Nazism, or the fact that Hitler was an Orientalist. Yeah ofcourse, they didn't like the jews, and Himler had a Genetic Fetish due to his early career as a paultry farmer, however upon close examiniation the assertion that 6 million jews perished in the Holocaust has proven to be as big and empty lie as 'Bid Laden was responsible for 9/11'

just how far is your head mired up your ass?

Joining the debate a little late due to the transatlantic time difference.....

My own thoughts:

1. Riots by the Aussies are possibly partly opportunistic in nature -- racist thugs who'd just been looking for an excuse to "vent" against suitable targets.

2. Racism in Australia (which, frankly, I hadn't been aware of, apart from the antagonism towards Aboriginals -- there's a lot of Aussie ex-pats here in London and they usually been above-average friendly towards me, disproportionately compared to the local Brits) towards those perceived as being from a Middle Eastern background has been exacerbated further by the fact that the country's been explicitly named as a target by Al-Qaeda. Plus the bombs in Bali etc.

3. The apparent discrepancy between the behaviour of many Muslims in other Western countries (including here in the UK) compared with the US may not only be due to the factors mentioned by Razib earlier (fractured community, significantly higher level of education and income amongst American Muslims), but perhaps also because Muslims in the US are much more vastly outnumbered compared to their counterparts in other countries, especially in Europe. Maybe this acts as some kind of psychological "check" against the potential of riotous or seditionary behaviour on the part of disgruntled American Muslims, along with indirectly acting as a subtle incentive for them to integrate quietly. I'm just guessing here.

the assertion that 6 million jews perished in the Holocaust has proven to be as big and empty lie as 'Bid Laden was responsible for 9/11'

The freaks come out at night.

I suspect that poster "Rajawati" is either someone deliberately yanking everyone's chain as a subversive "joke", or has RSS-leanings.....

just how far is your head mired up your ass?

A N N A girl!
oops..I mean
A T T A girl!

I ass-ume that was a rhetoric :)
BUTT from what I can surmise,sadly not as deep as we would have wanted it to be.

By the way, Wiki says the official figure is somewhere between 9 to 11 million.

"I think this is a pretty inflammatory thing to say without any basis of knowledge, as the speaker herself admitted."

I didn't mean for it to inflame, but if the foo shits...

You are right, I should do some more research, but I believe that the majority of Australian Lebanese moved there post-1960s, and the majority of American Lebanese moved here during the Ottoman era and are Christian. (Danny Thomas) My conclusion that Aussie Lebs are Shia is deductive. Does anyone have hard facts? I'd like to see them.

I'm not defending alcohol-fanned hooliganism, which is what this is. That said, it seems, from what I've read, that a minority of Australian Lebanese enjoy baiting the majority, like Jahjah. And I do venture that the Lebanese Shia are radicalized and take certain aggressive characteristics with them.

I lived in Sydney for two years - in Bondi Beach and in Surry Hills. I frequently heard mutterings about "wogs" and "Lebs". The gang-rape incidents didn't help race relations for sure. There was much muttering too, about traditional ways of living being threatened by the changing demographics of the western suburbs and townships (Liverpool, Blacktown, Paramatta etc) - not just the large Lebanese presence but also Asian immigrants like the Vietnamese. I was quite nervous after 9/11, worrying that someday, I would be in a bar surrounded by yobs, someone would hear my name, and turn on me. Nothing happened but it was a reflection of how I felt the simmering tensions were capable of quickly rising to the surface.

And still, I must confess, I'm shocked. Sydney was a beautiful, friendly city and this has defiled its memory for me.

Nice to see the anti- holocaust denier support. I recall my Russian-Jewish grandmother, after years of requests, finally permitted by the Soviet Union to make a phone call to her remaining family in Poland. This was sometime in the late 1960's and I was around ten.

The call was monitored of course, and my grandmother spoke yiddish, but it was clear that she was running down a list of names, and that the answer to almost all was "no." The call was cut off in mid-stream (even though it implicated the Nazis more than the Soviets).

Sheesh. I regret the focus of Holocaust museums on the Jewish holocaust. We've had ten or twelve in the 20th century with a couple ongoing. Let's acknowledge them all.

Why always this focus on us Jews? What, Rajawati, did we ever do to you?

Whoops, got my grandmas confused. My Polish-Jewish grandmother, in this case.

but perhaps also because Muslims in the US are much more vastly outnumbered compared to their counterparts in other countries, especially in Europe. Maybe this acts as some kind of psychological "check" against the potential of riotous or seditionary behaviour on the part of disgruntled American Muslims, along with indirectly acting as a subtle incentive for them to integrate quietly.

All I can say is, you're kidding right???? Please tell me you're kidding. Muslims dont riot in the US because they arent in the majority!?!?!?!?! I thought I had heard all the excuses, but that was a new one. And I guess that the france riots were an attempt by islamofacists to take over france, and the 9/11 memorial in PA is actually a memorial to the hijackers.

Why is it that we always are very quick to dump (justly too, I ight add) on the *blond white* racists, but never stop to lament the sad retarded reclusiveness of the Muslim communities everywhere? Do we honestly think all this is going to get any better without Muslims starting to integrate better?

just how far is your head mired up your ass?

I'm sure its far enough to prevent said person from seeing mere objective proof -- like pictures of prison camps, dead bodies heaped sky high; testimony from thousands who fled Europe in an exodus and those who survived; testimony from Poles, Gypsies, and others who were slaughtered; remanants of the kill houses in prison camps...(list goes on).

*Sigh*

Would the local reaction have been the same were it a community of any other skin color? Say it weren't the Lebs but were migrant "Italians" or "Japanese" or "Canadians" who had settled down in Australia. Now a bunch of these migrant youths went out and committed the same hideous act as the Lebanese youth had done and then some more (Like the assault on the lifeguards). Would the local surfer population have reacted in the same way as they did in this case?

Something to think about. Perhaps this act easily become interpreted as a racial crime cause of two skin colors in the picture. Perhaps the local population would have reacted the same had it been anyone else.

(an no I'm not an ozzie or any way related to it)

Jeremy

Dont worry about it - these anti-semites get everywhere on the internet - even cool places like this - dont let it make you feel any less at home here.

Why is it that we always are very quick to dump (justly too, I ight add) on the *blond white* racists, but never stop to lament the sad retarded reclusiveness of the Muslim communities everywhere?

here at the mutiny, we are staunchly against all stupidity, no matter the ethnicity or creed of the perpetrator, TRUST me. :)

i hear you. but it's not as simple as saying that they're too reclusive-- you or i might say "reclusive", others would contend "excluded".

Do we honestly think all this is going to get any better without Muslims starting to integrate better?

i think this is an important thought-- and one which we can all consider. it's not like i saw any other brown parents (besides my daddy) at our monthly speech and debate tournaments, much to the bitter disappointment of other brown competitors. they would furiously cut me off, when i had the nerve to rant about how "my dad won't leave me alone!" with a heated, "at least YOUR dad is HERE."

same with PTA. my ex-bf's soccer team. fill in your own examples. fine, maybe it's not the "retarded reclusive" degree that we see in certain communities, but we ain't innocent, either. honor killings don't just happen in muslim families. i can't see a family that HAD integrated murdering a wayward daughter, can you?

MRT,

I was referring to those Muslims settled in the US who may have anti-Western/anti-US tendencies like those living elsewhere in the West (including here in the UK).

I was not referring to "all" or even "most" American Muslims.

You also need to take into consideration my comment (and Razib's) about the comparatively higher level of income and education of US Muslims.

I'm sure your own suggestions as to why Muslims in the States are more integrated and law-abiding than in other Western countries would be welcomed.

By the way, you missed my point about Muslims being outnumbered. Muslims are not the "majority" in any Western country, including the UK. However, when you consider that (unless I'm mistaken) they constitute 10% of the French population and, here in the UK, are approximately 1.5 million in a total British population of 60 million, then it's a considerably different situation compared to the US where there are estimated to be between 1.5 - 3 million Muslims in a total population of nearly 300 million.

Both the visibility and ratio are very different indeed.

anyway, racism sucks. but there aren't any saints either.

So true in the context of racism anywhere in the world.

Immigration, especially when it is happens fast and furiously, on a large scale and in a short time as many countries are experiencing today, is prone to bring about backlashes-whether exprerssed or not - from the population that is on the "receiving" end of it.

The trick is to contain the virulet expressions of this, emphasize the positives of the immigration to both parties, and then have an environment that acclimatizes the immigrants and immigrees to each other. A fracture in this delicate exercise can bring about the kind of behavior this town saw recently.

Its also common sense that the people that are immigrating don't try to change the subtext of the life they *chose* to move to. Besides being numerically handicapped, and thereby making such a plan of action somewhat of a dangerous pursuit, its also bad manners for a guest (many do get social benefits afterall to get them started) to tell the host that their rooms are small , for example.

If there have been numerous incidents where the "Lebs" have had issues with the general Aussie culture, then why did they go there in the first place? Perhaps because Australia was an easier place to migrate to for a variety of reasons such as greater availability of visas, and a faster track to gain the material trappings of modern life.

And then once "in" (or "out" as it may be viewed), perhaps it is considered easier to impose their traditional/idealist view on the prevalant culture?

If so, then obviously, this sort of attitude to immigration is flawed in both purpose and approach, and as long as this sort of migrancy continues, it will create the fissures that lead to the incidents we see today.

I have seen that the general vein of an anrgument made in favor of immigration, tries hard to gloss over or ignore the existence of some of these issues in a straight forward and constructive way - because that may make the person voicing these opinions seem old fashioned and even xenophobic. However, in any new wave of migration, it must be remembered that the receivers of the new population may have already been immigrants themselves (South Asians, Lebanese) but may feel that they are now "local" and therefore view the next approaching wave with some manner of caution. Therefore, saying there is a problem with Lebanese immigrants may be too generic , as opposed to saying Lebanese immigrants of a particular origin in Lebanon, a socio economic context, and a window of their immigration, are more alike than Lebanese immigrants of a different time/emo space.

The other problem that I see with the general response to immigration, is that somehow the immigrants must be welcomed with open arms, as if immigration is a right. It is a first step towards being citizens in a new land with its own culture that they can help positively influence. Coming in is not an invitation to stay and dissonate. If that contract is unrecognized, bad things happen.

Interesting thread, and I've been typing fast and without much editing, so I assume that this appears like a random flood of thoughts, but I hope the intent of it shows through as well.

Hey folks - forget Australia. There's a lot of bad shit going down in the US right now. Check out these action alerts about really really bad legislation, HR 4437, which is being railroaded through Congress this week. I heard that someone is introducing an amendment to kill native-born citizenship to this bill, which already strips a number of rights from documented and undocumented immigrants, and even people who work with them.

Please get involved, and call your representatives today. Hopefully, someone can write a longer piece about how important it is that folks get involved on this one. If this thing passes, it's not going to be a temporary setback for immigrant rights - it's going to be a nightmare.

Since when did this forum turn into appologists for racist thugs? Does the differnce in ethnic/religious background justify the kind of garbage being spewed on here. The kind of broad statements about basis of tensions seem to be trying to justify the actions of a lot or racist/stupid/drunken louts. Check out the link:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/bali-tampa-911-a-potpourri-of-causes/2005/12/12/1134236003147.html

Give the posturing a rest vandesi - this forum isn't about apologia.

Standard Sepia Mutiny thread:

1. This bad thing happened.
2. What? Terrible that this bad thing happened.
3. Various theories about why said bad thing happened.
4. Arguing back and forth about why said bad thing happened.
5. Trolls.
6. Someone gets mad that people are trying to understand what happened.

(I've done the same thing vandesi - after the 7/7 bombings there were commenters saying that racism was the cause, while others were saying, no, it's indoctrination. And, as I recall, I got irritated that people were trying to understand why 7/7 happened, but it wasn't apologia. It was a different - people had their theories why 7/7 happened. Come now. This is one of the better forums for discussion on the net. And, no, abhi didn't pay me to say that).

native-born citizenship to this bill

The only thing people are talking about doing is eliminating automatic conferance of citizenship on children of illegal immigrants. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Thousands of white youths attacked people they believed were of Arab descent at a Sydney beach. Later, Arabs retaliated in the suburbs.

On reading this in the New York Times, I literally pissed my pants.
I mean thousands of white youth! This doesnt sound like the Nazis to me. Sounds more like average White Australians gone insane.

Meanwhile, back in France, things have "calmed" down ... I wonder if this is going to be the norm for countries where the "disenfranchised minorities" (sic) express their opinions :

As many as 60 cars still burn nightly in France

PARIS, Dec 8 (AFP) - Between 40 and 60 cars are still being burned nightly in France more than three weeks after a wave of suburban violence subsided, a senior interior ministry official said Thursday.

As many as 60 cars still burn nightly in France

... a text message of unknown origin but wide impact... was a blunt call to arms, saying in part: "This Sunday every f---ing Aussie in the Shire get down to north Cronulla to help support Leb and wog bashing day..." [Link]

well, i've had three kiwis tell me that oz is racist (out of four i've known with any level of familiarity). seems like a common perception by kiwis.

Most Canadians will also tell you that America is racist, sexist, fundamentalist, illiterate etc.

I guess its a common reaction to being next to a larger culturally dominant country.

My bad - that was me, but I mistyped. I meant to say:

"This Sunday every f---ing Aussie in the Shire get down to north Cronulla to help support Leg and bob washing day..."

You'd be surprised how dirty your legs and bobs get down under ...

Federal Labor MP Harry Quick blames racism

It really concerns me that Australians - if you scratch them you discover a racist and this is one of the sad things about Australia, despite us espousing multiculturalism, deep down we have this fear of people who are different from us.

contradicting Prime Minister Howard's view that there is no underlying racism in Australia

I'm with Al Mujahid on this - I'm simply amazed at the scale of the violence.

Lookit, young people get into fights. Turf, alcohol, racism ... all a potent mix.

But we're talking about thousands of Australians, possibly 5,000 or more. That's not a minor thing, no matter how resistant to assimilation any group is. I can think of very few first world racial situations recently that involved that many people. As I recall (although I could be wrong) violence in france involved very small groups of roving individuals, more like 30 at a time, maybe fewer.

And what does this say about the police? Once you have more than 50 people assembled, the police should be able to spot them and move in. You really don't want to let these groups get that large, they become much harder to deal with.

BTW, I'm waiting for the law and order Aussie premier to use the same language about the white rioters as the French minister did about the Arab ones - will the PM call them "scum"? If not, will the people who defended that label in France use it themselves here?

People. I am appalled at the Australia backlash going on in blogospeheres everywhere. Honestly! I lived in Sydney as a desi immigrant with my desi immigrant family AND extended family for nearly 20 years and never encountered a bout of violent racism. The world media usually doesnt take notice of Australia which is why most of you dont know much about us (a real relief to be honest!).

When these riots flared up, alongside other issues, the media decided it was just what they needed to further emphasise just how racist a country Australia is. I am sorry, but if you havent learnt by now that all you hear in the media isnt correct you never will.

Yes this atrocity has occurred and will continue occurring until a breaking point is reached whereby discussion can begin to tackle the issues at their core. But please, dont uneccessarily burn my country when a whole heap of you guys are from countries where occurrences like this have also been an issue! Try and judge fairly and try not to generalise! A majority of desi's and other races here, despite all that has occurred, will tell you that Aus is a great place to live and that 5000 ignorant uni students do not speak for the 22 million that did not participate in this ruthless mess.

I'm not saying that AU is deeply racist, but I will say that it's not easy to mobilize 5,000 people for anything that isn't sport related. This is an unusually large race riot for a first world country, and that's very significant. 50 people are disgruntled individuals, 5,000 ... and you start to wonder what that says about both society and the state's ability to maintain order.

MJ: The PM has a long history of failure with regards to race issues. He has consistently failed to contradict or condemn outright racial vilification since he came to office and has promoted a culture of fear and suspicion. In his book, multiculturalism is a dirty word. He refuses to call Australia multicultural as he refuses to acknowledge that this was racially motivated. The NSW Premier took a stronger stance.

divya, welcome to the fray :-)

Ennis,

5000 is a fraction of the population of three universities that begun this whole mess. 5000 in comparison to 22 million is what I am asking you to consider. Out of those 5000, more than half were under 25.

As for society and maintaining order- its a bit hard when violence erupts unexpectedly. Order is being maintained, believe me, police taskforces are everywhere and are doing their very best to prevent the violence from recurring.

... its a bit hard when violence erupts unexpectedly.

But it wasn't unexpected. The text message organizing the riot seems to have been reported in the SMH a day before it happened.

Pardon my outrage:

but MD give your head a shake

Are you serious? You don't find this starnge? If it had been random attacks against desi's, do you think this thread would be wringing its hand trying to rationalize (and perhaps even justify) the actions of some louts? I mean look at statements like these:

"I'm not defending alcohol-fanned hooliganism, which is what this is. That said, it seems, from what I've read, that a minority of Australian Lebanese enjoy baiting the majority, like Jahjah. And I do venture that the Lebanese Shia are radicalized and take certain aggressive characteristics with them."

Does anyone really think that people who have tendencies towards racism need any real reason to go on violent rampages? It's rumors of arab kids getting into fights with life guards today. Gang rapes from a couple of years back, or their beliefs that they don't need permission from thugs to get to the beach tomorrow. Of all the people on the net, shouldn't we be the first to recognize inflamatory rhetoric.

It's not that one or two people wrote crazy posts (Hollocaust deniers here? your search engine led you to the wrong kind of Arians moron) or that some people wanted to share their experiences of Australia as being mostly tolerant. But that any number of people kept hinting that these kids deserved it (and thankfully any number of mutieers called them on their inflamatory statements).

I'm just curious as to the rational behind this? Do mutineers wish to draw clear distinctions between arab and desi populations (as someone ironcially suggested the I'm not a Leb t-shirts)? Or perhpas we would like to hold on to a notion of Australia as a mostly tolerant society that will accept us for ourselves and not see us as a wog, curry, and commit random acts of violence against us?

Divya:

How easily have you been able to mobilize 5,000 uni students for anything without sport/music/women in bikinis involved? It's really not that easy to do. Furthermore, once violence began, the police had reasons to prevent large gatherings from occurring again. Why wasn't this just a one day event? Lastly, I'd love to see the polls on how Aussies are reacting. Even coverage in the SMH indicates that there is a fair amount of sympathy for the nativist message of the gundas.

Manish,

Police were on standby in the event that anything occurred, however, one text message would not warrant an entire taskforce by the beach, in this case though, it was a completely unexpected number of people, beyond what the police or anyone else could even begin to imagine. Would you have expected 5000 neo-nazi uni students to turn up after an sms?

Manish, it was the SMH :-)

It was reported in local Sydney city and suburban papers. Local shock jock Alan Jones has been fanning the flames for a at least a week on talkback radio (can't find link, SMH has taken it down). From the article you linked it seems to have been viewed as a largely surfie turf issue. No one expected such numbers or for things to escalate to such a degree.

And our glorious PM yet again fails to read the mood of the situation and respond adequately.

Appeals for violence were brewing on the radio, and seem to be popular after the fact:

The riot was three days away and Sydney's top-rating breakfast host had heaps of anonymous emails to whip his 2GB listeners on.

He was dead keen for a demo at the beach: "A rally, a street march, call it what you will. A community show of force."

He assured his audience he "understood" why that famous text message went out and he read it right through again on air: "Come to Cronulla this weekend to take revenge. This Sunday every Aussie in the shire get down to North Cronulla to support the leb and wog bashing day …"

Daily he cautioned his listeners not to take the law into their own hands, but he warmed to those who had exactly that on their minds. On Thursday Charlie rang to suggest all junior footballers in the shire gather on the beach to support the lifesavers. "Good stuff, good stuff," said Jones.

"I tell you who we want to encourage, Charlie, all the Pacific Island people because, you want to know something, they don't take any nonsense. They are proud to be here - all those Samoans and Fijians. They love being here. And they say 'Uh huh, uh huh. You step out of line, look out.' And of course, cowards always run, don't they."

When John called on Tuesday to recommend vigilante action - "If the police can't do the job, the next tier is us" - Jones did not dissent. "Yeah. Good on you John." And when he offered a maxim his father had picked up in the war - "Shoot one, the rest will run" - Jones roared with laughter. "No, you don't play Queensberry's rules. Good on you, John."

Pity poor Berta - "not of a Middle Eastern family" - who reported hearing "really derogatory remarks" aimed at Middle Eastern people on Cronulla beach. Jones cut her off: "Let's not get too carried away, Berta. We don't have Anglo-Saxon kids out there raping women in western Sydney."

Yesterday 2GB broadcasters claimed two thirds of calls to the station supported "what happened" on Sunday. But Alan Jones is not around to deal with the aftermath. He's having a well-earned holiday. [Link]

These were repeated appeals for violence on Sydney's top rated morning show program, and afterwards 2/3rds of callers approved of the violence. Sounds like more than just a few drunken malcontents.

flygirl, jinx!

Divya:

Would you have expected 5000 neo-nazi uni students to turn up after an sms?