what a tragedy...what good is going to come out of killing these innocent professors?.. honestly... there are a few stupid people in the world that make many other lives completely miserable..

If we are to believe Syriana, these are just misguided youth.

Thoughts and prayers to the prof's family. Just a senseless act of killing.

My Mum used to study at IISc, so we've been following this one closely since last night. Poor BLR is not used to this sort of thing and the attack does seem very bizarre. Our thoughts are with Prof Puri's family and I hope the casualties pull through okay.

My reaction to the IISc attack was: What took them so long?

I've been told that Bangalore's muslims are being radicalised over the last decade. You can see it on the streets - more men with skull-caps and pathani dress, most women with head-scarf. You can see it also in the mosque sermons - so much so that by default the police have to be present near every mosque after the Friday prayers to keep peace.

I think a few years ago a Pakistani minister made a statement that went something like: "If Pakistan wants to, it can wipe off the IT industry in Bangalore and Hyderabad in a few weeks." Amid loud protests from India, he squirmed out of it by saying "What I meant was that Pakistan could provide cheaper and better services to Western customers, thus putting India out of business." But India took the statement seriously, and Z-class security was provided to AzimPremji and NarayanaMurthy. Around the same time, a few Bangalore muslims were arrested upon suspicious behaviour near AzimPremji house. He was already under pressure because over 95% of Wipro's employees were Hindus. In addition, he would participate in the SaraswatiPuja when new computers were inaugarated. In addition, he used to give money to temples (in addition to mosques) as part of his charity. In addition, he belongs to the (Ismaili?) Shia community among muslims, which is a minority among Indian muslims (who are mostly Sunni), which disagrees with Sunnis on many issues (they support the construction of the temple in Ayodhya).

All in all, trouble for Bangalore ahead (and Hyderabad/Chennai as well). All of the Congress-CM Dharam Singh's wooing of muslims will tantamount to little in the end.

M. Nam

You can see it on the streets - more men with skull-caps and pathani dress, most women with head-scarf

Yes there seems to be a lot of data which suggests a correlation between wearing Shalwar Kameez and attacking random professors.

I'd term this a senseless act, but the automatic weapons do at least suggest terrorism. I find a link between such terrorism (if that's what it was) and the more domestic variety that occurs with family (dis)honor killings. Both seek to terrorize, only with different target populations in mind. Non-Muslim cultures for one, Muslim women for the other.

It's as if the KKK had been running rampant in the US for centuries with no prospect of an end in sight.

I think IISc as a target for Pakistan based terrorist outfits such as Lashkar-e-Taiba, backed by the ISI, is known for some time, as per this rediff report. I remember sometime back when some LeT terrorists were caught alive, they had divulged information about attack on Bangalore's IT infrastructure. Very infuriating (to me)

Took the words out of my mouth AMfD. MoorNam, I haven't been to BLR but my best friend, my gf and lots of other people are from there. I haven't heard much about Muslims being radicalised. But let's assume you are right - you can't tell these things from wearing skull caps or hijabs.

Often your posts are articulate (that doesn't mean factual) and require thought to respond to. This one isn't. It's all hearsay. Can you expect anyone to believe that people are going to attack Azim Premji because he participates in Saraswati Puja? Where did you get the figures about the religious makeup of his staff? Kill Shah Rukh Khan! He played a Hindu on screen! Kill Abdul Kalam! He works for a Sikh! I don't know if what you say about mosques needing police outside is true. There are loads of mosques in BLR, are you saying that they ALL have police outside every Friday? Surely crime rates would soar on Friday as the entire city's police are distracted.

Either way, even if you are correct in that BLR is home to some extremists, why attack professors and scientists at a conference?

Either way, even if you are correct in that BLR is home to some extremists, why attack professors and scientists at a conference?

In other words, what could a terrorist--if this is indeed a terrorist attack-- be thinking?

IISc is emblematic of independent India's turn to science and away from false epistemologies and constricting worldviews. Its in a city thats at the heart of the Indian "miracle". If you are in the business of derailing India's progress, what better symbol to attack?

AMFD/BB,

It's one thing to say that there is no link between wearing Salwar/hijab by people who always did so, and killing of professors. I agree with you on that.

It's another thing when people who wore lungi/veshti/dhoti, saris and lehngas, spoke Telugu, Kannada at home for centuries, suddenly (over the course of a few years) switch to salwaar/hijab, Urdu at home and Arabic in mosque. Would the latter group be more susceptible to attacking professors? I think so. Just watch the trend in Bangladesh and Indonesia for the last 10+ years.

We could either be politically correct, or identify the problem. Not both.

I cannot find the articles about Azim Premji - some websites do not carry stories from before 2002. Will continue looking.

M. nam

Kill Abdul Kalam! He works for a Sikh!

>>No its other way round. In India President is still the head of the country.

Mark, surely attacking one of the IT companies would be more emblematic? Anyway, there's no point trying to speculate on what they were thinking or to understand terrorists, so forget I mentioned that.

MoorNam, I have no interest in being politically correct, I never have. But I think stronger facts are needed. A book I've mentioned on here before is Naipaul's Beyond Belief, which tackles the Arabisation that has happened in Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran and Pakistan. But I can't accept that vast swathes of BLR have been converted to speaking Urdu/Arabic and dressing differently unless I see it for myself or hear it from a reputable news source. Could those people be more susceptible to drifting towards terrorism? Maybe. But your initial point of being able to see the radicalisation of BLR by simply looking in the streets isn't the same thing.

Irrespective of links to potential terrorism, I agree with you on one thing (shock horror!) The trend of abandoning native customs in favour of imported (Arabic) trends is something that does particularly piss me off. But I do maintain you can't extrapolate that to say "it was only a matter of time" for this to have happened.

OK Vick, but the President has few actual powers in India. Anyway, you know the point I was trying to make, however inarticulately.

I dont think it has anything to do with Bangalore muslims per se. In any community there will be handfull willing to carry out violent acts and provide logistical support.

This attack is a clear message from the Pakistani ruling establishment that they are willing and have the capability to stike at the very heart of the Indian elite, and will not hesitate to do so. It could possibly hav a connection with recent Indian comments about Baluchistan where Pakistani military haas been using helicopter gunships and jet fighters against its citizens. This has found absoultely no mention in the western press.

This Time article is good summary of the reasons Bangalore is a prime terrorist target:

Thursday, Dec. 29, 2005 Is Outsourcing the Next Terror Target?

It’s a possibility that's staring India in the face after the first ever terror attack in Bangalore, the center of the country's thriving outsourcing industry

Is Outsourcing the Next Terror Target?

I read the news, and then have been bombarded by emails and forwards about it all day long. Why would someone seek to kill a few academics at a conference? IISc is like a sanctuary of peace and tranquility amidst the urban hustle around it. There are almost no vehicles on the roads inside campus. Most residents prefer to walk, at most times immersed in thought, along its tree-lined avenues. A random act of terrorism like this seems like a loss of innocence of some sort.

Moor, it was very likely a terrorist attack. And likely too by rabid fundies. However, the assertion that BLR muslims as a section of society were complicit is inflammatory and very likely untrue. Firstly, there is no proof backing the assertion that more people are wearing salwar kameezes in Bangalore. It is very likely that there are more people noticing a skull cap or a salwar kameez on BLR streets and notching those against some mental list of -- suspected terrorist. Secondly, just because there is a terrorist attack by a muslim fundamentalist group does not mean that resident muslims in the city aided or abetted them -- I present NYC as a counterexample.

IISc is the intellectual hub of India's missile programs and strategic studies. The National Institute of Advanced Studies does a lot of strategic work for the Dept. of Defense. It is akin to hitting out at the Pentagon.

>>Moor, it was very likely a terrorist attack. And likely too by rabid fundies

Apparantly, the naxalites have stepped up their activities in Karnataka. It could very well be them, although the sophisticated execution points towards Pakistan.

M. Nam

on Naxalites:

- This modus operandi is entirely unlike any Naxalite operation and very similar to that used by Pakistani terrorist groups like LeT. Note the similarity in this case to the Red Fort attack in Delhi.
- Naxalite targets are symbols of local authority: police force, jails, district administration. Naxalite forces in all their history have never attacked schools, colleges, hospitals or such institutions.

Some years ago I was talking to someone involved with law enforcement in India. His theory was that Islamist terror cells were being set up in major cities in India and Bangalore was known to be a perfect target with the number of multinational companies and technical infrastructure concentrated in a relatively small area. This attack marks a new phase in terroism in India, where just like London and Madrid, independant cells are actively looking at expanding their reach to cover much wider areas than they have ever done in the past.

bongdongs wrote:

>>Naxalite forces in all their history have never attacked schools, colleges, hospitals or such institutions

Really? Check this.

Agreed - this was in Nepal. However, a known strategy of Naxalites is to first hit at government hard targets, and when resources are strained, hit at soft targets such as schools etc. I repeat myself - It's just a matter of time.

M. Nam

"I've been told that Bangalore's muslims are being radicalised over the last decade. You can see it on the streets - more men with skull-caps and pathani dress, most women with head-scarf."

So in your dictionary skullcaps/pathani dress=radicalists? Guess what, I wear the loose flowing kurta by choice many a times. But that should not be news to you. Hey after all we are all Arabs. We were born to wear kurtas and hence kill people. The news is my Hindu roommate in Bangalore (you can call him radical too - he wears the tilak and does Puja daily), likes the Pathani style of Kurta more than the traditional silk Maharashtrian kurta and I get one for him most of the times I get one for myself. Congratulations. ting..tong. You've got two new radicalised terrorists.

"It's another thing when people who wore lungi/veshti/dhoti, saris and lehngas, spoke Telugu, Kannada at home for centuries, suddenly (over the course of a few years) switch to salwaar/hijab, Urdu at home and Arabic in mosque."

Are you holyshit-ting me? So we all speak Arabic in mosques, and after our prayers make nefarious secret plans to blow up everything in sight? So my entire community, majority of them who wear sarees is not a Muslim by your definition? Nor are the hundreds of Muslims who don't wear hijab? And thanks for significantly reducing the Muslim population by eliminating all muslims from Kerala and Bengal. They don't speak Urdu at home. Are you trolling or are you flaming? When was the last time you ever met a Muslim? or visited Bangalore? for that matter India?

I also agree with you, it's another thing that some 0.001% of dhoti/veshti wearing junta in India have also converted to shirts/pants/jeans and behaving like those white westerners. It's also another matter these few hundreds of Sanskrti speaking Hindus in N.India have converted to the Hindi/Hindustani language in their homes. I miss all those Sanskrit news channels which I used to watch in India. You are so bang on target..that I am at a loss of words.

I wish I could "see" things and come to conclusions as good and effortlessly as you do. You see, my ignorance stems from the fact that I've just stayed 5 years in Bangalore. I cannot thank you enough for your "deep" observations.

Yes there seems to be a lot of data which suggests a correlation between wearing Shalwar Kameez and attacking random professors.

while i have no concrete data, I remember having read that even in Europe, radicalization of Muslim youth begins with change of dress. I have quite a few friends who agree with the fact that Banglore's muslim youth have been radicalized. Quite a few think it is related to the fact that they have had not the gains from the IT boom that Hindus and other minority religions did.

Thank chacha nehru and his progenies for that matter. congress has had pusillanimous attitude with respect to muslims. In india sharia courts and qazis are still active, there is no separation of mosque and state then is it. They still subsidize travel for the hajj in mecca.
Their policies have helped terrorist as much as pakistani policies.
Thank your chacha.

Guru Gulab Khatri, if Chacha was the one who started it, I stand by your side. However if you feel Muslims (sharia courts/qazis whatever) support Hajj subsidy, you might want to rethink over it:
Excerpts from the "10. HAJ SUBSIDY section" of this link. Please do read it. It lists all the reasons why many Muslims are opposed to Hajj subsidy. I very rarely agree with the RSS and when I do, it must be highlighted. I'll just excerpt three points:
....
A. Incidentally, in 1997, while disposing of a petition before him, Justice Tanvir Ahmed of the Lahore High Court had ruled that any expenditure defrayed by the government in subsidising hajis was contrary to the Shariat and therefore, wrong. Since then, the Pakistani government has stopped all subsidies for haj pilgrimage.

The editor of Muslim India and former MP, Syed Shahabuddin, has consistently demanded for the last 15 years that the Government of India phase out the haj subsidy. “I have told successive Prime Ministers of the country that this haj subsidy is there because of their political need; it has never been our demand. No Muslim leader has ever demanded subsidy”, he said in an interview to the magazine Communalism Combat two years ago.

B. A report published in the The Indian Express on February 26, 2001, said during the tour of an Indian delegation led by the then foreign minister Jaswant Singh to Saudi Arabia in January 2001, the then Saudi ambassador to India, A. Rahman N. Alohaly, and the Saudi foreign minister, Saud Al-Faisal, had tried to impress upon the Indian delegation that any state subsidy for haj pilgrimage is “wrong”. “Our ulema will help you in explaining to your people that the subsidy goes against the spirit of the Shariat,” Al–Faisal reportedly told the Indian delegation.

C. Abdussattar Yusuf Shaikh, secretary, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and office bearer of a host of Muslim educational institutions is opposed to haj subsidy for the following reasons......
2) Haj is obligatory, only once in a lifetime and only for those Muslims who are both physically capable of undertaking the journey and have the adequate financial capacity. It is not obligatory for others. The issue of adequate financial ability has also been clearly specified...
4) The money needed for the performance of haj should come out of one’s own legitimate earning or possession and the amount should be sufficient to meet the entire expenses to be incurred on the performance of haj. Among other things, this includes the entire travel expenses, whatever the mode of travel...
(It's quite list-y so I won't quote all of it. I'll just request anyone who thinks Muslims are pro-Hajj subsidy to read it)

It's anybody's guess now why the political parties across the spectrum don't want to get rid of it. Because they all have votebanks to cater to. And come elections, such histrionics go a long way in proving their pro-minority affiliations. Another case in point: Vajpayee's hilarious promise of recruiting 2 crore Urdu teachers.

Sorry Anna, didn't want to derail this thread into OT links...but just thought a little clarification on a very common misconception that keeps raising its head every now and then might help.

Is it just me, or anyone else finds it interesting that some of these terrorists are Bangladeshis? I don't think I've ever seen this before.

"Bangla outfit was targeting Andhra STF"

Officers said post-October 29 investigations had revealed that a Harkat-ul-Jehad operative Nafiq-ul-Vishwas was helping terrorists in arranging weapons and giving them shelter on the West Bengal border.

Nafiq was later arrested by the Bengal Police along with one Suhag Khan. Subsequently, both of them were brought to Delhi and it was found that Suhag Khan was a Bangladeshi national and his real name was Hilaluddin alias Hilal.

What's the extent of Islamic radicalization in Bangladesh? Assuming that there must've been a lot of goodwill in Bangladesh towards India in the seventies, why is it now becoming anti-India? Knowledgeable mutineers, please enlighten.

Suhail Kazi
You wrote:-

However if you feel Muslims (sharia courts/qazis whatever) support Hajj subsidy,you might want to rethink over it
...
It's anybody's guess now why the political parties across the spectrum don't want to get rid of it. Because they all have votebanks to cater to

I am a Jain and very sympathetic to Indian Muslims. They are my fellow countrymen, full stop. Shame on you who promptly blame'them'. This is exactly what the terrists would like. Yes, terrorists did this and these institutes will learn to take better care. However please remember again and again that most Muslims in India, including many, many in Kashmir want to remain in India and be treated like people. After Gandhi's asassination, the Pune Brahmins were horribly targeted and destroyed. We do not need these biased blamemongers, prejudiced towards someone without a proper rationale. If anything, we, 'the other' should reassure them that we do NOT blame them for what some misguided criminals have done. Yes, some religious practices may have a lot to answer for, but how dare anyone blame the rank and file of all Indian Muslims. Even though many must have been approached and tempted, no one has yet been found with the Osama gang. And it must require a lot of courage to sy No, to these gangsters.

After Gandhi's asassination, the Pune Brahmins were horribly targeted and destroyed

well, isn't it true that konkanastha brahmins were extremely influential in the RSS? similarly, it is a point of fact that terrorists tend to be muslim even if muslims do not tend to terrorists. this does not mean that stupid generalizations hold, but it also does not mean that generalizations are not relevant.

check that: transnational terrorists :)

"After Gandhi's asassination, the Pune Brahmins were horribly targeted and destroyed"

Wrongfully maligned and perhaps slandered. But never "horribly targeted and destroyed".

I feel sorry for the attacks, my condolences. I donot think any community as a whole took part in it. A shotgun approach will never solve anything.

One thing I want to point out (since I go to India very often) - these horrible things will not be that simple if the infrastructure in general is more robust. A lot of things in India becomes extremely "soft targets" because of subpar infrastructure. It is improving but still.............

One example, Indian airports especially towns other than Delhi, Mumbai, etc.

Shame on you who promptly blame'them'.

Indian Muslims have rarely been found involved in terrorist acts. They have their differences with the mainstream, with the govt and may be with the whole world but continue to prefer India. Some are sick to death of the world Islamic bodies regularly championing Pakistan re Kashmir,while ignoring them and jeopardizing them. And yes, I do believe living in a functioning multicultural, democratic and, yes, secular for the most part, state has moulded them into liberal Muslims.
Re A Pakistani minister says they can wipe out all the IT businesses in a few weeks. What would be more impressive is if they could create them in a few weeks. To destroy is not a big deal. Indian Muslims reiterate that Pakis hate them the most, they represent why Pak need not have been created. By the way, Pakis tell me to stop giving the ISI so much importance. Say they are simply not that intelligent!

Indian Muslims have rarely been found involved in terrorist acts.

First things first, am I the only one who thought brain-mapping was very sci-fi? Like, Red Earth.

After Gandhi's asassination, the Pune Brahmins were horribly targeted and destroyed.

I declare that since we have the goddamn technology, lets brain-map everyone in the effing country that wears Afghani-style kurtas. That should make JJ Valaya quiver in his jotis. And rightly so. We can keep people's brain-maps in a little database center in Gurgaon. Whenever you feel you wanna update it, you call a number and talk to a Oompa or Loompa or whoever and they'll update your political-leanings/psychological stability/happiness index/horniness from the central file server.

That'll solve the problem for good.... Unless they start wearing pants and confuse the hell out of everyone.

Muslims in India probably feel exactly the same way there as almost all 'South Asians' feel here in the West. They are marginalised, all painted with the same 'terrorist', 'radical', ‘Islamofacist' (etc. etc.) brush regardless of who they are individuals ... or even what the overwhelming majority of their community stands for as a whole.
People rant & rave about their treatment in the West, & yet we have people like Guru Gulab Khatri using exactly the same forms of irrational hate-mongering as the NeoCon loonies.

At least the RSS jerks havent experienced the exact treatment for themselves. But people who demonstrate bigotry in spite of suffering the luxury of perspective are really, truly world class morons.

Thank your chacha

Actually, yes. I do thank Chacha for helping create a secular democracy & understanding the importance of NOT deracinating some of the most deep-seated practices of a people following a different faith. Any such attempt would not only be futile but also wipe out any chance of coexistence in One secular country. It takes a profoundly wise man to have that kind of foresight.

That itself provides the answer to who the votebanks are.

The old vote bank argument. Because of course if they weren’t vote banks, (if only they weren’t allowed to vote) everyone would immediately agree to have them all shot. Guess what? They are a vote bank because they are PEOPLE . Damn right there’ll be politicians catering to their needs. That’s how a democracy works!

Its simply the fact that 'they' engaged in these kind of activities globaly …..

No you see you’re missing the point here. The word “they” was put in single quotes by the commenter (correct me if I’m wrong lakshmishakti) to indicate flimsy grounds on which one can possibly define a “they”. If they are Indian, ‘they’ are as much as, and no different from ‘us‘.

I remember a wrestling tournament and a muslim kid .. blah blah blah

Ah yes, a personal anecdote to open all our eyes to the wonderful world of religious hatred & intolerance. Guess what? Anyone can quote dozens of anecdotes to prove just about anything. I know of many instances in Hindu families that routinely spout non-stop anti-Muslim garbage. As I’m sure, do many white families about South Asians. Anecdotes like these prove nothing.

IC so it was a secular organization that wanted to create a shoot out in the parliament two years ago ….

Another stupid way to prove just about anything. Generalise, generalise & generalise like a m*****f*cker.

I could go on, but all this is giving me a headache.

There always someone like an Esa al-Hindi aka Dhiren Barot whom the radicals are looking to recruit. A convertee may have more of a reason to prove themselves worthy of the "cause".

A biographical sketch on the back cover of Barot/al-Hindi’s published work describes him as a convert from Hinduism to Islam who fought with mujahedin in Kashmir, returned home to Britain for a while before spending a year as an instructor in an Afghan mujahedin training camp.

I am in BLR as I write , and haven't really had a chance to read all the above comments (in a hurry). But someone mentioned something about BLR being radicalised etc. All I have to say is NOT TRUE. Atleast it doesnt appear that way.
Also, I passed through the IIS bulding and more specifically the Tata auditorium, and you do not get the feeling that there was a terrorist attack 2 days before. All I saw today was one police jeep parked outside and maybe one 'hawaldar'. Life is back to business here.

There were earlier rumblings of Kashmiri militants targeting Bangalore: previous post.

Apparently the terrorists had lobbed four hand-grenades into the conferenece room - none of them exploded. Had they exploded, the casuality figure would have been in dozens. Such a botched operation points to a locally "outsourced" outfit which has very little experience - LeT or other terrorist organisations are more professional and thorough.

As for the tempest that my "pathan dress = radicalisation" comment has caused - I can only roll my eyes in exasperation. Analyst after analyst who has written about Wahabbisation of the sub-continent, Indonesia., Thailand etc have come to the same conclusion: The first noticeable trait of the radicalised muslim appears in the sudden, permanent change of dress, language and entertainment choices. I highlight "permanent" because this is not someone like Suhail(on this board) who wears salwaar on festival days and special occassions. This radicalised muslim will not wear anything else. He will stop watching "obscene" TV shows with skin and divorce themes (probably the last decent thing he will do in his life!). He will force his female folk to do the same. He will start doing namaaz in the office, in front of his co-workers, in the corridor, in his cubicle - even at the risk of losing his job. He will not talk about cricket, Bollywood etc with his friends (whom he will lose soon), co-workers etc.

Are BLR muslims radicalised? No. That would be a sweeping generalisation. Are a significant number of BLR muslims radicalised in the last decade or so? The answer to that is Yes. Is this significant number growing? Is this significant number turning to terrorism? No - not yet. Is this number enough to provide logistical support to terrorists from outside. Yes. Are they providing support? Most likely - without this terrorists cannot operate.

As I said before: Either you are politically correct or you go to the roots of the problem.

M. Nam

lakshmishakti: " However please remember again and again that most Muslims in India, including many, many in Kashmir want to remain in India and be treated like people."

While your intentions are noble, I couldn't agree with you more strongly.

I am a Kashmiri Muslim. And restassured - the overwhelming majority of Kashmiri Muslims [especially the Muslims] would do anything to escape your Indian yoke.
For Gods sake, what part of we want FREEDOM don't you Indian's understand ?
Do you have any idea of the abominations unleashed upon the people of Kashmir by your security forces?
If not, I would strongly urge to take some time and review the Human Rights Watch report.

Lakshmishakti:
So much for my strongly worded rebuttal.
I meant to say - I couldn't dis -agree with you more.

I have to agree with M.Nam with his comment #.40..

However, the question how does one tackle "radicalism", and how does one differentiate it with freedom of expression.

YAD

People rant & rave about their treatment in the West, & yet we have people like Guru Gulab Khatri using exactly the same forms of irrational hate-mongering as the NeoCon loonies.

I have to agree with M.Nam with his comment #.40..

However, the question how does one tackle "radicalism", and how does one differentiate it with freedom of expression

Well no one can go after any one just b/c they chose to alter their dress.
The thing in wealthier societies, the prevention strategy is to monitor 'potential radical' closely to see what they are upto.
But in indias case in the near long run they cant do so. They dont have the kind of resources to collect and sort through massive amount of data.
In indias case(like most poorer countries) they cant do much on the prevention side. So it will have to live with it in the near long term.
It will allways be responding to an attack. But some things can be done to create higher level of deterant. Swift investigations and trials with severe punishment will deter a few but not all. Thats a reasonable goal that can be achieved if there is the political will. But the longer term solution is to become smarter(intelligence evesdropping etc).

KushTandon writes: >>how does one tackle "radicalism", and how does one differentiate it with freedom of expression.

Simple. Remove State support.

Point A is where a muslim does his namaaz, follows her festivals, practices his culture etc, and at the same time has a healthy interaction with non-muslims in the society in the economic, entertainment, political spheres. Point Z is when he/she blows himself up in a subway.

For him/her to get from Point A to Point Z, there are many transformations that have to go through. While many of these transformations B (dress), C(language), D,E(etc etc) in isolation do not violate any laws, there does come a point (let's say Q) when the transformation, even though not illegal, is bad enough to make the person a non-productive member of society. At this point, the individual has to rely on State support for day-to-day existence. The stronger the State support(Europe), the quicker the transition from point Q to point Z. The weaker the State support(US), the quicker the transition back from point Q to point A. A free-market system aids in this approach.

India's muslims have been on dole since 1947 in some way or the other. Food subsidies regardless of number of children have been given. They have separate State supported schools and colleges with no accountability. There are calls to give them reservation in govt jobs. There are also calls to give them reservation in IIT's and IIM's. Calls for reservations in private sector will not be far behind.

The more State support they get - the worse the problem becomes.

M. Nam

"At this point, the individual has to rely on State support for day-to-day existence. The stronger the State support(Europe), the quicker the transition from point Q to point Z. The weaker the State support(US), the quicker the transition back from point Q to point A. A free-market system aids in this approach."

You have a point there. Often, I do not agree with you but sometimes I do. However, even in US, there is always (especially these days) a push for state supporting faith. In France, they do not but then they have problems too.

I think the solution might be general progress - but then high-profile terrorists tend to be middle class or upper middle class. I think DesiDudeInAustin (comment #.35) had a brilliant solution.

At this point, the individual has to rely on State support for day-to-day existence. The stronger the State support(Europe), the quicker the transition from point Q to point Z. The weaker the State support(US), the quicker the transition back from point Q to point A. A free-market system aids in this approach.

Moornam,
You stated
The first noticeable trait of the radicalised muslim appears in the sudden, permanent change of dress, language and entertainment choices.

This actually is a fair point. However unless we have some concrete numbers on the percentage of people who turn violent after changing their way of dress, its pretty meaningless to rely on change of dress etc., as any meaningful indicator of the propensity of the dress changers to commit violent acts. I dont believe becoming more religious or traditional has any correlation with becoming a jihadist. Most Muslims in northern states have always worn shalwar kameez, speak Urdu at home, prayers are always offered in Arabic in masjids and so on.
IMHO a better indicator of the propensity of any Muslim to become a global jihadist is a change in the religious ideology towards Salafism. Razib on GNXP has various posts on the relation between the Salafists and Global Jihadists. The Asian bombers in England became radicalized when they moved to the Salafi Masjids from the Deobandi Masjids. As far as I can tell, Salafis have not penetrated the Indian Muslim communities.
Taking out Kashmir from the equation, would it be a fair statement to make that the non Kashmiri Indian Muslims are not active jihadists in any significant numbers to raise alarm. I might of course be mistaken and if there evidence which would suggest otherwise, I would like to see it.

"India's muslims have been on dole since 1947 in some way or the other"

Could you please refer to some examples of thos dole. Also I am not asking for proof as much as I am just curious about the type and amount of this dole.

Food subsidies regardless of number of children have been given

Are you alluding to the subsidized food ? Wont that be in proportion to the number of members in the family. I guess you could make a point that if Indian Muslims have more family members than say Indian Hindus they receive more dole per family but that would hardly be a de-motivator to work.

India's muslims have been on dole since 1947 in some way or the other

This one is for the Kashmiri Muslim named Nazir. Of course you want freedom. But how can India part with Kashmir. Let me give you a hypothetical analogy. Florida is an integral part of US. Over a course of 50 years, due to heavy immigration of Muslims into Florida and a simultaneous flight of non Muslims out of Florida, the state becomes the only Muslim majority state of America. Then for some unexplained reasons the Muslims begin to complain of persecution and also begin to be vocal about the fact they have more in common with Saudi Arabia than the US. Give a decade and they want to secede!!

Heck in Kashmir's case the irony is that Muslims didn't come from elsewhere. They were all local Hindus who mostly involuntarily converted to Islam. Nazir you and a lot of your converted Hindu brothers still retain Pandit last names like Butt, Dar e.t.c . Human rights abuses? What about the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Kashmir. The human rights abuses if any are a natural response to your misdeeds.

Hey Nazir let me ask you a very fundamental question. Why do Kashmiri Muslims want to secede? Don't give me the bullshit that you guys are persecuted in a Hindu majority India. Muslims getting persecuted in a preponderantly Muslim land ( Kashmir )!! That's crap. I grew up in India. We Indians if anything were enamored of Kashmir and its people. After all there was a time when it was de rigeur for every Bollywood movie to be shot in Kashmir. India is a very diverse country just like US and there just as in the US anyone of any color , ethnicity or religion is just as likely to be discriminated against. Hey Kashmir even has a special status that is not accorded to any other Indian state. You give credence to right wingers everywhere that Muslims are peaceful and accommodating only as long as they are in a minority. Looks like they are not wrong after all. Your Muslims brothers in India have done better for themselves than their coreligionists in Muslim states like Bangladesh and Pakistan. Don't get me started on the Shahrukhs, Rushdies, Fareed Zakarias.

Sam:
The Kashmiri Muslims would like to seccede because it is our right. Granted to us by a UN resolution in 1948. The resolution, by the way, which came about when Pandit Nehru appealed to the International Community to intervene.
Yes, I am well aware of the caveat in the resolution that a plebescite cannot be held until both parties [Pakistan & India] withdraw to pre 48 war borders.
Now just because India and Pakistan is in a "whose is bigger" showdown, doesn't mean that you hold us hostage.
We deserve, no we have the right to determine our own destiny. And if we chose to join our Mulsim bretheren in Pakistan, so be it. And if we chose to side with the faux secularist nation, India, so be it.
And if we chose to be independent - so be it.
But, we will make that decision.
As for the removal/migration of Kashmiri Hindus.....Let me ask you...What have you done for them?
It is my understanding that the majority of them are rotting in the refugee camps of jammu....and if you ask me ..they deserve their plight.
Hey, they chose India and they got it.

It is my understanding that the majority of them are rotting in the refugee camps of jammu....and if you ask me ..they deserve their plight. Hey, they chose India and they got it.

Yea, just like the Palestinians chose to live in squalor in camps from Lebanon to Jordan and voluntarily left Palestine in hundreds of thousands to become refugees in surrounding Arab Nations.
It is ridiculous when Zionists want to address the problem of Palestinian refugee conditions in Lebanon and West Bank while ignoring the fact that their Zionists brothers kicked out the Palestinians and its equally ridiculous when a Kashmiri Muslim like you wants to address the Kashmiri refugee situation in Jammu while ignoring the fact that the Kashmiri Hindus were chased out of their homes.
So instead of blaming the aggressor you blame the refuge givers.

Do you really believe that 6th and 7th generation Kashmiri Pandits all of a sudden chose to move to India to live in sub human conditions in refugee camps from Jammu to Delhi ?
Do you ever wonder whether it has something to do with the fact that these people were intimidated, killed and terrorized by Kashmiri Jihadis and that is why they left the Kashmir valley.

Nazir, perhaps you and other separtists will be better off across the valley in Gilgit where your beloved terrorist dictator carried out a massacre of Shias in Gilgit and where the folks in "Azad" Kashmir are a living testimony of liberal, secualr and democratic principles practised in Pakistan. Wouldn't it be just awesome to have the fundies from Pakistani Punjab and FATA unleashed on Kashmir valey? Don't forget that the 1948 resolution you talk about was a result of Indian magnanimity after Indian soldiers saved your sorry asses from the invasion of Pakistani tribals. And guess what : the democratically elected Constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir, led by Sheikh Abdullah, decided to ratify the state's accession with India under the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir in 1956.

Kashmir, theland of Rajtarangini and Panini shall always be an integral part of India, no matter how many Indian lives it takes to keep it that that way. You and your secessionist brethren are most welcome to Islamic paragons of freedom and democracy such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan if you can't live within the faux secular democracy that has made J&K the second richest state in the union on per-capita GDP basis, and provided you a democratic constitutional framework to govern yourselves.

Nazir,

Don't we think we use the present disaster, Kashmir earthquake as a healing processes. Where will your anger lead to? You know that nobody is going back to 1948 borders. Independent Kashmir will exist only for 24 hours. Don't Chinese have part of Karakoram, through an arrangement by Pakistan.

Why not stop the violence and talk - sure, they will be disagrements, sure but talk.

All said in done, India has a Sikh Prime Minister, Muslim President, the "real kingmaker" is a Christian, the Chief of Army is a Sikh, the Chairman Planning Commission is a Sikh today, and the majority are Hindus. In 1971, when India accepted surrender from Pakistan - the chief of army was a Parsi, the officer that accepted the surrender was a Sikh, the tactical architet behind the surrender was a Jew. That is a hell of a record for pluralism by any world standards - I know, I know thay have been serious instances of failure ('84, '93, some of the excesses by Indian army in Kashmir and NE India) - But let's talk, and not kill and shout. Saying a certain section of peoplpe (Kashmir Hindus) deserve their plight is dehumanizing, Aren't they your fellow Kashmiris.

Maybe, we should have a truth commission like the one by Nelson Mandela did for South Africa but all of them should agree to talk.

I think the stuff about mosques and muslims and the Bangalore attack was a little off. I knew one of the casualties in the attack, and was deeply shocked and saddened to hear about the attack. I do speak Urdu, and a few phrases in Arabic, and do wear shalwar kameez, or jeans - or whatever the hell I want to! Sure, there is radicalization, but a having any social/religious customs or having a political opinion is not a crime. Killing a person other than in the course of justice (through a court) is. Is there something we disagree about in the above?

I remember many times when people (usually the high class elite types) in India would go all ga-ga over the Israeli method of fighting its enemies. We need to be like Israel and all. So yeah seal off the old town in Bangalore, Delhi etc., put up check points in Indian cities, have Hindus only roads running across the country. Then have suicide bombings all over and look all cool with young people rifles on their shoulders walking down the posh MG road - just like good old Tel Aviv. The overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims think of themselves as Indians, and have the same ambitions, strengths, and faults as any other Indians. Sure, many of us have deep faith in a certain way of salvation, and want to pray a certain way and sometimes dress a certain type - but whats actually wrong with that? The idea of a justice system is there because of a certain reason. It is to punich the person who does a crime, like the IISc shooting, and protect the innocent, even if she/he has different political ideas.

Well, if people have a problem with Muslims sincerely believing in their religion - then doesn't everyone else? Would a Catholic, or Jew want to do the Muslim prayers? Of course, Muslims believe in their own interpretation - just like Sikhs do in their own, and Baptists in their own. If Tom Friedman has a problem with that, its fine, but dont connect that faith which most people have with the actions of a few - the two are different things.

Just to be sure - its not that I actually agree with ALL of the radicalization or social conservativeness that is becoming rampant in many Muslim societies. But then neither do I agree with eating pork.

But hell I'd like to make all of those decisions on my own reason and in the light of what I believe, not because some frothing anger some people spout here and there, along with expletives about motherhood. What on earth is up with that, Mr. Gulab Khatri?

What on earth is up with that, Mr. Gulab Khatri?

India needs to get tough in Kashmir. Let the Army have a free reign, give them a carte blanche, we won't have too many kashmiris left to complain about plebiscites. Wars are never won half heartedly. India should open up kashmir and let Indians buy property and populate the valley. Sun Tzu writes that the best way to win a war is by not fighting. India has squandered every chance for creating hell in Pakistan that would make support to the kashmiris unthinkable.

India needs to get tough in Kashmir. Let the Army have a free reign, give them a carte blanche, we won't have too many kashmiris left to complain about plebiscites. Wars are never won half heartedly.

Sam and the other Indians,

Why are you so afraid of allowing a plebiscie in Kashmir?
I know why. It is because you will be exposed for what you are - a faux secular nation, which is, Inshallah, in her last throes.

Why should I [any Kashmiri Muslim] care about what happens to the traitor kaum of Pandits?
I repeat - they sided with [chose] India at a very crucial moment in my country's history and got what they deserved.

hey nazr... the need for kashmiriyat and the demand for independence aside - you seem to have general mutton with india(ns). So is it anger with indian people (bad B.O., general hairiness, etc.?), the political system, or the bureaucracy? Do relate your personal issues. we're all aware of the general blots and like venting now and then?

you seem to have general mutton with india(ns). So is it anger with indian people (bad B.O., general hairiness, etc.?), the political system, or the bureaucracy?

Dhaavak,
Nazir just doesnt want to move out of Mr. Bhan's pushtiani haveli, that he occupied after Mr. Bhan's family was forced out. He loves that mansion, besides who wouldnt love free real estate ?? :-)

Kush and the rest of Indians:

If having a Mulsim [apologist for a Mulsim] President, a figurehead Sikh PM etc, makes a nation secular. Then I am assuming you all must be big fans of George W. After all, he has appointed more minorities to high positions then his predecesors. e.g, Condi Rice, Powell etc.

I was an Engineering student at the Aligarh Muslim University in the mid nineties. And during my years there, whenever India played Pakistan in cricket of hokey, all of us Mulsims, Kashmiri or non Kashmiri, ALL OF US, supported Pakistan. Not only did we root for Pakistan, but also rooted for any country playing against India.
Do visit the AMU campus during a sporting event and see it for your self. Better yet, visit the Muslim localities of Delhi, Bombay and Hyderabad and witness the state of your faux secularism.

Get this through your head - the partition of India is incomplete.

To prove it further, I will posit a hypothetical query - What would happen if say Gujarat or Rajhastan becomes, by some miracle a Mulsim Majority state?
I will tell you what will happen - the said state will demand to seccede from "Mother India".
And rightfuly so. India, in my experience is only for Hindus. See Narendra Modi, Jagdish Tytler, etc. They are responsible for the death of thousands of minority, Sikhs and Muslims. And yet they roam free.

"If having a Mulsim [apologist for a Mulsim] President, a figurehead Sikh PM etc, makes a nation secular. Then I am assuming you all must be big fans of George W. After all, he has appointed more minorities to high positions then his predecesors. e.g, Condi Rice, Powell etc."

Nazir,

It is more complex that that. These are not figure heads - they contribute to what India is today. It so happens that the Muslim President was also a top scientist of India's space program. Manmohan Singh was also Chairman of Reserve Bank of India and a finance Minister - a world class economist. Do you really think Sonia Gandhi is a figure head? Field Marshal Sam Maneshshaw (Parsi), General JS Aurora (Sikh) - they were there ~40 years ago before Powells and Rice are here. Per capita wise, I am sure Parsis (Tatas, Godrejs), Sikhs, and Jains are perhaps the richest communities in India - way ahead of Hindus.

I originally come from North India and I am very aware of poverty more rampant in Muslim neighborhoods - I know Muslim ghettoization quite well. Tell you what, who is the face of change in India - a Muslim - Azim Premji. Make a list of India's wealthy people - a great majority of them are Parsis. The richest state in India is Punjab. In a ghetto in Mumbai - they are Hindus too in same numbers.

Personally, it does not bother me at all if students @ AMU want to cheer for any team other than India. In a democracy, they have the right to do that. Party on

I know of the radicalization in India and it bothers me - You are not helping it either. Nobody ever said it was perfect but we totally protest slander and tearing it down.

I was an Engineering student at the Aligarh Muslim University in the mid nineties

Have you ever seen a Muslim University in Kansas or in Ohio or in Manitoba? How about a Hindu University in Lahore? I rest my case.

Didn't you get trained in India? Did anyone stop you? There is even talk of making AMU an IIT.

It happens, I am very clued in what happens in India as if today. I am clueless NRI.

Correction: I am not a clueless NRI.

Cheering for any country other than Pakistan...might be freedom of expression and whatnot. But it's very uncool. I will not say, unpatriotic -- no, that is to be reserved for far more serious things. It's about as ridiculous as first genners who have fake Valley-girl accents and claim that they are from San whatever, even though they had never stepped out of Delhi for the first sixteen years of their lives. These are people with zero national identity. Some people have one. Some may have more than one -- if you've been born somewhere and have spent many years elsewhere for instance, you could find yourself very well at home in tweed jackets and kurtas e.g. Amartya Sen, and dare I say it..Cicatrix(?). But having lived your entire life in one place and yet have no emotional attachment towards it is downright shallow. To borrow a sporting phrase, Nazir, it's just not cricket.

And what do you mean by 'apologist for a Mulsim [sic]'? You have a problem with the fact that President Kalam defends Islam?

Nazir
Its time your kaum does some introspection.
you tough pious muslim still cant wrestle kashmir from india.
Dude its such a shame.

Like Kush says, AMU has over 25% reservation for Muslims. This is in a country where less than 20% of the population is Muslim.

Why feed a troll? Nazirbhai, good luck to you : please carry on cheering for Pakistan and enjoy life.

the passion of certainty in your statements suggests a belief in a controlled experimental environment and/or strategy crafted and fought in ink. I am gauging you are a theoretician - a mathematician or a computer scientist? Pray correct me if I've erred. But my point is that your statements are somewhat naive and hearts and minds are not won with the gun

Why should I [any Kashmiri Muslim] care about what happens to the traitor kaum of Pandits? I repeat - they sided with [chose] India at a very crucial moment in my country's history and got what they deserved.

Interesting perspective. This legitimizes the position of the extreme wing of the Hindu right -- if the muslims in India are suffering, too bad. After all, they chose to remain in India after partition. For the record, I don't buy this argument.

I, at least, have no problems with a plebiscite. However, since not all the residents of the region are Kashmiri or Muslim, they too must be given the self-determination option. The original UN declaration cannot be implemented as envisaged because the other groups (Ladhakis, Gujjars, etc.) have become conscious politically and one cannot turn the clock back. But I do agree that the plebiscite option must be taken more seriously. The only Indian thinker who has advocated this position is Madhu Kishwar. See her article "Why fear the people's choice? Calling Pakistan's bluff on a Kashmir Plebiscite" available at http://indiatogether.org/manushi/issue131/callbluff.htm

Nazir, the perspective you are advocating - that India's secularism is only a sham - is by no means new: it is an article of faith among some Pakistanis. I have followed the Pakistani press on and off over the years and everytime there is a major riot, there are articles about how the "fake secularism" in India has been exposed.

Perhaps, as you say, India's secularism is fake and that all the prominent Muslims are merely "figureheads." But - in the subcontinental context - could you point out a state which has had a better record vis-a-vis minorities: Sri Lanka (where's the figurehead Tamil)? Bangladesh (10% or more minorities, where is a figurehead Hindu or Chakma tribal)? Or perhaps - in Pakistan - how exactly are the Shias and Ahmediyyas, not to mention the remaining Hindus and Christians doing?

In the subcontinent, no state is anywhere close to meeting the standards that we now expect of a state with respect to its minorities. The fact that India's flawed record is about the best in this region points to a general failure that extends beyond India. And this may not be to your liking, my feeling is that an independent Kashmir is not going to improve this dismal record.

Suresh.

Better yet, visit the Muslim localities of Delhi, Bombay and Hyderabad

Please read this story, I wrote about a little, muslim girl near Charminar, Hyderabad. You might learn a thing or two about humanity and decency.

From what I have seen, Non Kashmiri Muslims in India are hardly supportive of the Kashmiri cause (sorry Nazir). It might have something to do with the fact that they dont want their numbers reduced especially considering the fact that with India being a parliamentary democracy, reduced number of Muslims would diminish their political clout.
The Kashmir issue has never caught the popular imagination of Non Kashmiri Indian Muslims like it has in Pakistan. From what I can tell most of them would rather have Kashmir stay as a part of India then to become independent.
Somebody more knowledgeable can probably explain this better.
I personally happen to think that once the Kashmiris solve the 'Pandit' issue and take them back and provide for their security, they can make a persuasive case for self determination.

Al Mujahid:
I never said that the Non-Kashmiri Muslims in India are supportive of Kashmiri Independence. I claimed that their hearts beat for Pakistan. And anybody who has travelled through the Muslim neighbouhoods of the Indian cities will confirm that. If you are unable to verify. I can point you towards a few Indian Muslim community leaders in the US who will oblige.
And rightly so. I will ask of the Indians on this blog once again. Most of whom likely are supporters of either the BJP or the Congress - both parties complicit in progroms.
Why was nobody from the Congress Party [ the current rulers of India and the so called non-communal party] punished for the barbaric murders of thousands of Sikhs in Delhi and other Indian cities.
Indeed, why is the party even in existence ?
Why hasn't Narendra Modi been punished? What will it take to get justice for the families of the Two Thousand Mulsims massacred in the Gujarat riots?

When you fix the lives of millions of minorities whose lives have been ruined by this most disgusting of a "secular" country....then talk to me about Kashmiri hindus, who are rotting in your India.

p.s. Not only will Kashmir be independent, but so will Nagaland, Khalistan, Manipur, Mizoram, Tamil Nadu, Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh etc, etc......it is only a matter of time.

Suresh:
Why do you and the other Indians constantly point towards the state of freedoms and rights in the other countries of the subcontinent.
Why not compare yourselves to nations in Europe instead or even the US, where majority of you who post on this blog are likely residing.
Start looking up my friend...will do you and India good.

If you are unable to verify. I can point you towards a few Indian Muslim community leaders in the US who will oblige.

Nazir pal, I would do not that for their own sake. They might get deported back to India for radicalism. I think you do not read much - I hope you know what is happening these days - NSA, Patriot Act, fingerprinting, geiger counters, deportation - Being a US citizen is not a carte blanche anymore.

I am signing out and will not post on this thread any further, I would take Gujjubhai's advise. Have a nice life. Get some........You are quite "divide and rule" rabble rouser.

Once you get an independent Kashmir, where are you get the oil and gas from to light the bulbs? Or China will do the favors, like Tibet. Happy Andhra Pradesh Independence Day.

p.s. Not only will Kashmir be independent, but so will Nagaland, Khalistan, Manipur, Mizoram, Tamil Nadu, Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh etc, etc......it is only a matter of time.

Guru Gulab:
Your knowledge the geo-political and historical happenings in South Asia and the Persian gulf is appaling to say the least.
Lesson # 1
If you had read your history, you would know that there is a legitimate concern in certain Indian circles of a resurgent Dravid [not the cricketing type] movement in Tamil Nadu. Especially, if an independent Ellam comes to pass in Serendip. Ever wonder why the Indian govt has not attempted to go after Prabhakaran for killing a sitting Indian PM?

Lesson # 2
Not that the pipeline matters to me...but here goes anyways.
Iran has a substantial and restless Baloch population along its border with Pakistan. So a free Balochistan is not in Persian interest. Indeed, experts have surmised that Iran may ONCE again be helping Pakistan quell the rebellion.

Lesson # 3
In any case India would be making a strategic blunder if she engineers the break of Pakistan. After all, look what happened with Bangladesh now.
Imagine, several more Bangladeshes and Pakistans

Get some education and think man, think!

Your knowledge the geo-political and historical happenings in South Asia and the Persian gulf is appaling to say the least.

Dullard Nazir, what was the strategic blunder with bangladesh? What has bangladesh really been able to accomplish against india ? Nothing apart from nuisance. Thats all. Infact what has pakistan really been able to accomplish india. Indians split pakistanis despite opposition from US and China, and both those fellows are gone from the pakistani camp now. In all this time what have you been able to do? Kashmir is still split and in the same sorry state. Its so pathetic for the tough soldiers of faith, who are still humiliated by kafirs idoltars.

There was a CIA publication which gota blurb in washington time, essentialy what it said was that
the probability of pakistan becoming a yugoslavia by 2020 is very high, and in that case US will collaberate with india, and
possibaly iran to get rid of pakistani weapons both nuclear and otherwise.
This time there is a strong money incentive. Sindhis and Balochis will make a lot more money percapita wise through the pipeline than if it went through a complete pakistan. IRan is also looking for a big customer thats close. Indians are their best hope for that.
Yes Iran has a balochistani population but that is not as aggressive as the bugtis(at present). Iran will make a deal with them or may even give up territory.

Regarding SL, You bloke you oughtto get education. Prabhakaran did not kill a sitting PM. The glorified madarsaa that you claimed to have attened is producing delusionals. an intern from a non research private engineering college will outperform the dimwits from graduating from there Check where the bulk of the money for LTTE comes in. Its localy generated, followed by contributions from malasia,singapore,canada us then india. that is why that insurgency is lasting. TN residents have stopped contributing since the late 80's and this movement will die out soon. More slowly than khalistani but with both india and US clamping down on fundings its getting tough for them.
Hypothetical if LTTE would be able to carve off N and E SL, if it does, that will be annexed into a greater TN with in india.

Any ways the game is on dude, keep dreaming about your hoors cause in this world you aint gonna get anything.

Your knowledge the geo-political and historical happenings in South Asia and the Persian gulf is appaling to say the least.

There was a CIA publication which gota blurb in washington time, essentialy what it said was that
the probability of pakistan becoming a yugoslavia by 2020 is very high, and in that case US will collaberate with india, and
possibaly iran to get rid of pakistani weapons both nuclear and otherwise.
This time there is a strong money incentive. Sindhis and Balochis will make a lot more money percapita wise through the pipeline than if it went through a complete pakistan. IRan is also looking for a big customer thats close. Indians are their best hope for that.
Yes Iran has a balochistani population but that is not as aggressive as the bugtis(at present). Iran will make a deal with them or may even give up territory.

Regarding SL, You bloke you oughtto get education. Prabhakaran did not kill a sitting PM. The glorified madarsaa that you claimed to have attened is producing delusionals. an intern from a non research private engineering college will outperform the dimwits from graduating from there Check where the bulk of the money for LTTE comes in. Its localy generated, followed by contributions from malasia,singapore,canada us then india. that is why that insurgency is lasting. TN residents have stopped contributing since the late 80's and this movement will die out soon. More slowly than khalistani but with both india and US clamping down on fundings its getting tough for them.
Hypothetical if LTTE would be able to carve off N and E SL, if it does, that will be annexed into a greater TN with in india.

Any ways the game is on dude, keep dreaming about your hoors cause in this world you aint gonna get anything.

Why do you and the other Indians constantly point towards the state of freedoms and rights in the other countries of the subcontinent. Why not compare yourselves to nations in Europe instead or even the US, where majority of you who post on this blog are likely residing. Start looking up my friend...will do you and India good.

If you are criticising India's fake secularism, then the achievements in the other neighbouring countries are relevant because it's with them that we share our history. And I'll follow Kush's example and sign out - there's no point in continuing a dialogue with someone who can't be polite.

I claimed that their hearts beat for Pakistan.

I guess in that case, then they should be applying for immigration to Pakistan. Let the Pakistani Ministry of External Affairs know of this. People should be free to go whereever they want. I mean, its just not fair that they should suffer needlessly in India and be made to suffer the inhuman stifling of speech and expression (such as being able to only cheer for Pakistan in little college towns, and to be unable to share your joy at India's cricketing defeats over national television or a mainsteam nationally syndicated newspaper). Especially when the land of the free and the fair is just across the border.

"Now good day.... I said good day!"