MD,

Do you think we are going have Condi Rice-H. Clinton mud-wresting match for the next Presidential elections? Let's all discuss poitics and sex (Ms. Sheetal is finne [I am using Southern accent]) - too much of philosophy, religion, english-medium vs. venri schools, and patriachy on SM has been boring me.

Abhi,

What do think about this?

UCLA Alumni Group Is Tracking 'Radical' Faculty
By Stuart Silverstein and Peter Y. Hong
Times Staff Writers

January 18, 2006

A fledgling alumni group headed by a former campus Republican leader is
offering students payments of up to $100 per class to provide information on
instructors who are "abusive, one-sided or off-topic" in advocating
political ideologies.

The year-old Bruin Alumni Assn. says its "Exposing UCLA's Radical
Professors" initiative takes aim at faculty "actively proselytizing their
extreme views in the classroom, whether or not the commentary is relevant to
the class topic." Although the group says it is concerned about radical
professors of any political stripe, it has named an initial "Dirty 30" of
teachers it identifies with left-wing or liberal causes.

Some of the instructors mentioned accuse the association of conducting a
witch hunt that threatens to harm the teaching atmosphere, and at least one
of the group's advisory board members has resigned because he considers the
bounty offers inappropriate. The university said it will warn the
association that selling copies of professors' lectures would violate campus
rules and raise copyright issues.

The Bruin Alumni Assn. is headed by Andrew Jones, a 24-year-old who
graduated in June 2003 and was chairman of UCLA's Bruin Republicans student
group. He said his organization, which is registered with the state as a
nonprofit, does not charge dues and has no official members, but has raised
a total of $22,000 from 100 donors. Jones said the biggest contribution to
the group, $5,000, came from a foundation endowed by Arthur N. Rupe, 88, a
Santa Barbara resident and former Los Angeles record producer.

Jones' group is following in the footsteps of various conservative groups
that have taken steps, including monitoring professors, to counter what they
regard as an overwhelming leftist tilt at elite colleges and universities
around the country. He said many of these efforts, however, have done a poor
job of documenting their claims. As a result, Jones said, the Bruin Alumni
Assn. is offering to pay students for tapes and notes from classes.

"We're just trying to get people back on a professional level of things.
Having been a student myself up until 2003, and then watching what other
students like myself have gone through, I'm very concerned about the level
of professional teaching at UCLA," said Jones, who said he is supporting
himself with a modest salary from the organization and is its only full-time
employee.

He said he plans to show what he considers biased material to professors and
administrators and seek to have teachers present more balanced lectures or
possibly face reprimand.

UCLA administrators say they are planning no immediate legal action, other
than to notify Jones and to alert students that selling course materials
without the consent of the instructor and Chancellor Albert Carnesale
violates university policy. Patricia Jasper, a university lawyer, said UCLA
would reserve the right to take legal action if any students engaged in
unauthorized selling of materials.

Adrienne Lavine, chairwoman of UCLA's academic senate, agreed that the
university could do little more at this point. She said she found the
profiles on the alumni group's website "inflammatory" and "not a positive
way to address the concerns that Mr. Jones has expressed." Still, she said,
"I certainly support freedom of speech and that extends to Andrew Jones as
much as it does to every faculty member on campus."

The group's recent campaign has upset a number of targeted professors and
triggered the resignation last weekend of Harvard historian Stephan
Thernstrom, a prominent affirmative action opponent and former UCLA
professor, from the advisory board for Jones' organization.

Thernstrom said he joined the alumni group's more than 20-member advisory
board last year because he believed it "had a legitimate objective of
combating the extraordinary politicization of the faculty on elite campuses
today."

Still, Thernstrom said, "I felt it was extremely unwise, one, to put out a
list of targets of investigation and to agree to pay students to provide
information about what was going on in the classroom of those students. That
just seems to me way too intrusive. It seems to me a kind of vigilantism
that I very much object to."

Thernstrom said a fellow advisory board member, Jascha Kessler, an emeritus
UCLA English professor, also resigned for the same reason. Kessler could not
be reached for comment, but Jones confirmed that Kessler had resigned.

Jones said other members of the advisory board include Linda Chavez, former
federal civil rights commissioner in the Reagan administration and head of a
Virginia-based anti-affirmative action group; former Republican Rep. Jim
Rogan; and current UCLA professors Matt Malkan and Thomas Schwartz.

Jones said he has lined up one student who, for $100 a class session, has
agreed to provide tapes, detailed lecture notes and materials with what the
group considers inappropriate opinion. He would not name the student or the
professor whose class will be monitored. Jones characterized the work as
non-commercial news gathering and advocacy that does not violate university
policy.

On one of its websites, the Bruin Alumni Group names education professor
Peter McLaren as No. 1 on its "The Dirty Thirty: Ranking the Worst of the
Worst." It says "this Canadian native teaches the next generation of
teachers and professors how to properly indoctrinate students."

McLaren, in a telephone interview, called the alumni group's tactics
"beneath contempt."

"Any sober, concerned citizen would look at this and see right through it as
a reactionary form of McCarthyism. Any decent American is going to see
through this kind of right-wing propaganda. I just find it has no
credibility," he said.

The website also lists history professor Ellen DuBois, saying she "is in
every way the modern female academic: militant, impatient, accusatory, and
radical - very radical." In response, DuBois said: "This is a totally
abhorrent invitation to students to participate in a witch hunt … against
their professors."

But DuBois minimized the effect on campus, saying "it's not even clear this
is much other than the ill-considered action of a handful, if that, of
individuals."

The group's leading financial backer, Rupe, is a UCLA alumnus. He said his
foundation donated $5,000 because "I think there's not enough balance on the
campus. Some families are going into hock to send their kids there, and are
not getting their money's worth."

Rupe said the group's plan to pay students to record alleged bias "would be
ideal if it could be done legally."

Rupe's philanthropy is not centered on conservative causes. His foundation
donated $500,000 to UC Santa Barbara in 1998 to endow a professorship
studying the effects of the media on social behavior.
Ronald E. Rice, who holds the professorship, said Rupe told him he was
"really interested in the truth. He wants to bring people with different
perspectives together to really argue."

PS: I am using Southern accent - I meant Southern United States. A clarification.

I think SM should form a "orientalist" tracking group too similar to comment #.1

KT...words out of my mouth.
We need to have a desi political smackdown.
Props to Nikki...is every desi political superstar from the South a Republican? Why am I asking this question??!!
At this rate we'll have a brown Prez before Oprah!

Shes against gay marriage. Allah Hu Akbar!
Nice to see a Sardarni, a member of an oppressed minority, go after other minorities like gays.
Here is a post on her election.

My Predictions:

For Running Mates
Bobby Jindal for Condi Rice
Barack Obama for Hilary Clinton

Future
Condi Rice will win beacuse Bobby Jindal will carry the deep South.
In the mid-term of Condi Rice's term, there will be a tax-sex scandal, Condi Rice will have to resign and will become the President of Harvard. Bobby Jindal will be the next Prez of US of A by 2011.

Any bets and odd..................

PS: SM better watch out what you say BJ.

wow, she does not look brown.

Do you think we are going have Condi Rice-H. Clinton mud-wresting match for the next Presidential elections?

I would love to see Condi run against a Southern white male like Mark Warner or somebody folksy from the Mid-West like Tom Vilsack in the general election.
The flag waving, number 8 loving, pick up truck owning, beer guzzling, red neck republican males are not going to come out and vote for Condi against a good old boy.
Some of the American Taliban might also stay home and not get too excited over voting for a 50 something single woman who has never been married. If Condi can ever survive the primaries, her opponents will savage her over her single status (hint - push polling about Condi being a lesbian in South Carolina)

If Hillary runs, the Hillary haters will come out no matter what so I am hoping that she trips in the primaries.

I wouldn't want to see Condi vs Hillary. I'd like to see them both try in their own race against men!

"If Hillary runs, the Hillary haters will come out no matter what so I am hoping that she trips in the primaries."

You are right. But she turned on the heat and Mike Warner and Tom Vilsack hasn't. But at the end of the day, they will probably prevail.

You probably know Reagan was the first divorced President of USA. It came in the way of Nelson Rockefeller. Condi Rice's single status will haunt her........maybe, SM can help her. That is why BJ is needed as a running mates- his kids are needed on the podium.

Condi Rice's single status will haunt her........maybe, SM can help her. That is why BJ is needed as a running mates- his kids are needed on the podium

I dont think all of the white republican males in the South/Mid-West are ready to see dark skinned brown kids running on the stage or in fact are ready for the all black family of Condi accepting the party nomination under national spotlight. With elections being so close, if 150,000 odd Republicans had not shown up in Ohio, Kerry would have won.
As far as I can remember, the only time we have seen browns on stage during a party nomination is with Bush Sr and some of his grandkids. If Jeb Bush runs, people will of course see his mexican wife and half mexican kids on the stage.
That actually might open doors (hopefully) for minorities running for presidency.

ALM,

I am not being serious. You know.

A friend of mine once told me that Michael Duckakis first strike against him was his name (too foreign), then Willy Horton ad, ill fated tank-ride, debate question about hypothetical wife's rape, etc.

Jeb Bush is a real candidate. Hispanic kids should be OK.

I am not being serious. You know.

I know :)
I do think that a run by Hillary or Condi is very possible.

A friend of mine once told me that Michael Duckakis first strike against him was his name (too foreign), then Willy Horton ad, ill fated tank-ride, debate question about hypothetical wife's rape, etc.

Plus his bushy eyebrows, membership in the ACLU, refusal to fight back till the very end, being tagged too 'liberal', then actually calling himself a liberal (which apparently did boost his ratings a little) in the last days and being a governor from Tax-a-chussets probably didnt help either.
I am getting ready to bring down these mofos in the Congressional election later this year.

Kush,
Are you a liberal or a conservative?

She doesn't use the name Randhawa on her website anywhere. Does she even go by that name? Scary stuff promoted on that "values mailer" of hers. Ugh.

"Are you a liberal or a conservative?"

Confused.

Seriously, more like a Clinton Democrat. Or a A Blue Dog Democrat.

Quite liberal in principle, but might be conservative in practise - opposite of evengelical, righteous poiticians. I don't mind making alliances with either side, if they seem sensible to me for that particular issue.

It is the 10 years of South in me, therefore, the Clinton style. A lot of my friends are conservatives and but others quite liberal too, and I listen to most of them. I would assume other family members of mine in US are same but not sure.

She doesn't use the name Randhawa on her website anywhere.

She does in her bio in the State House. However in the grand scheme of things is it that big a deal to get the maiden name in there? I mean her name is Nikki Haley no? I'm trying to understand the offense some desis might feel at the omission of her maiden name in the original hyphen. The news is all over the desi papers in desh already.

Also found this

What do think about this?

UCLA Alumni Group Is Tracking 'Radical' Faculty
By Stuart Silverstein and Peter Y. Hong
Times Staff Writers

Yeah, Kush I have been thinking about this all day. What a load of crap. Its true that many college professors (especially scientists) are liberal and that they occasionaly voice their displeasure in class. When I teach I never let politics come to play. Still, I think this sort of witch hunt by a conservative group is going to backfire on them. Especially in California.

In reference to Sonia's comment (#6), she does not look brown because she is a Punjabi Jatt Sikh. Many Jatts do not look "brown". Not to get into the Aryan Invasion Theory again, but...

PS Shout out to Jai Singh...it's me, Amitabh, we've talked before on Sikhnet...you were right, this is a great blog.

Seriously, more like a Clinton Democrat. Or a A Blue Dog Democrat.

Wasn't Clinton with the DLC? Blue Dog Democrats have a fundamentally different moderate/conservative view on some of the major issues than the Democratic Leadership Council.

Is there such a thing as centrist? Or is that too lame? Of course my father says "If one doesn't have the passion to belong on one side of the other that person's a big wuss!!

What do think about this?

UCLA Alumni Group Is Tracking 'Radical' Faculty
By Stuart Silverstein and Peter Y. Hong
Times Staff Writers

The worst thing about these guys is that the things that they define (whine about) as politically "liberal" or "left" aren't political or liberal at all, they are just issues of intelligence, current thought or science.

Shes against gay marriage. Allah Hu Akbar! Nice to see a Sardarni, a member of an oppressed minority, go after other minorities like gays.

Pathetic.

Wasn't Clinton with the DLC? Blue Dog Democrats have a fundamentally different moderate/conservative view on some of the major issues than the Democratic Leadership Council.

Janet, I am using it in loose and broad terms. When I mean Blue Dog Democracts/ Clinton Democrat, I meant more like "mordern" Southeners who often idenfies with "old school" Republicans - can be fiscally conservative, but socially mostly liberal but conservative. Let's put it better, "Clint Eastwood Republican", how about that or "South Park Conservative".

I am delibrately not using the term "Dixiecrats".

Yes, Clinton was with DLC. For me, right now, DLC = mainstream Democrats.

KT I'm just bustin your chops you know :-) trying to get you all riled up. I get your drift. Peace out!

KT I'm just bustin your chops you know :-) trying to get you all riled up. I get your drift. Peace out!

I know. I am taking it as fun too.

I like those monikers, especially South Park conservatives and Clint Eastwood-tpyes.

All fun.

Is there such a thing as centrist? Or is that too lame? Of course my father says "If one doesn't have the passion to belong on one side of the other that person's a big wuss!!

or the famous saying attributed to texas populist democrat jim hightower: "the only things in the middle of the road are a yellow line and dead armadillos."

Is there such a thing as centrist? Or is that too lame? Of course my father says "If one doesn't have the passion to belong on one side of the other that person's a big wuss!!

or the famous saying attributed to texas populist democrat jim hightower: "the only things in the middle of the road are a yellow line and dead armadillos."

I will agree with the dude Jim Hightower. I think it takes more guts to be an independent, which BTW can be costly (we are talking about the independence of thought). IMHO taking refuge in a group on either side is conforming and that is wussful.

or the famous saying attributed to texas populist democrat jim hightower: "the only things in the middle of the road are a yellow line and dead armadillos."

How about George Bush's and Anakin Skywalker's quote:

"Either you are with us or you are against us"

With each day, I grow more amazed at the fact that Vinod hasn't shot himself in the head yet.

With each day, I grow more amazed at the fact that Vinod hasn't shot himself in the head yet.

As a self-described fundamentalist I would have thought that you'd be against suicide. What surprises me more is that you, Daycruz, live in Oregon.

y did u spell my home state so weird?

Spelling/typing isn't my strong suit. I'm not a detail guy, I'm a big picture guy. :)

Abhi, you just made me think...

I might just go put that gun to my head now...

Thanks, SM, for ending another Brown life..

Maybe it's too late or dumb to ask after being around SM for quite long. Nevertheless, AlMujahid are you a full-time member of ACLU? Asking because your link says so, your comments on US politics and ACLU in specific are very edumacative(thx Manish/cicax) and you said : "I am getting ready to bring down these mofos in the Congressional election later this year". Just wondering...

btw, is it just me that this lady looks a Desi version of Ann Coulter?

Amitabh,

PS Shout out to Jai Singh...it's me, Amitabh, we've talked before on Sikhnet...you were right, this is a great blog.

Hi buddy, good to hear from you. Sikhnet definitely has its merits but Sepia Mutiny is quite a different experience in some ways, isn't it ;)

SM is obviously a slightly less conservative place, and the more humourous conversations can sometimes veer into risque 'badmaashi' (yes me too, I'm afraid), but on the whole people here are a good-natured bunch. Extremely smart and well-informed too.

Welcome to the Mutiny, anyway. I'm a regular participant here these days, so it's good to have you on board too ;)

AlMujahid are you a full-time member of ACLU?

No, I dont work for the ACLU. I would like to but they dont pay enough :(

Al Mujahid - Condaleeza Rice is incredibly popular with the Republican base. Very, very popular. And those 'good old boys' of which you speak, in particular, love her staunch 2nd amendment credentials. At least, that's the way I read those too-early-to-tell-you anything polls. When they polled Iowan R activists last year, she came out on top (I still remember that story, but I can't remember which paper I read it in). She says she doesn't want to run and I suspect she's moderately pro-choice, so I don't think it will happen. She would be a fantastic VP choice, in my opinion. She's a rock star to the right - which I think you know, despite your attempts to paint anyone who doesn't think the way you do a racist.

May I compliment you on your charming debating skills?

As for Hillary, well, as a woman I would be delighted to see a woman president, but I'd rather it not be her. Hillary vs Condi (which would only happen in Bizarro world) would be something, wouldn't it?

With each day, I grow more amazed at the fact that Vinod hasn't shot himself in the head yet.

wtf? did i miss something??

Thanks, SM, for ending another Brown life..

"another"? which is the other? double wtf?

Welcome to the Mutiny, anyway. I'm a regular participant here these days, so it's good to have you on board too ;)

Jai is now inviting his social circle to SM eh? *sigh* There goes the neighbourhood. We used to have a reeeeel nice blog here once.

Goodbye you lot. Now where's that gun? Thanks SM, for ending YET ANOTHER brown life.

IMHO taking refuge in a group on either side is conforming and that is wussful.

So being likeminded with a group of people with the same ideals as yourself is wussful?

How is Condaleeza Rice a politicial all of a sudden? Has she ran in any election, where one has to campaign?? How about class president, even??

How is Condaleeza Rice a politicial all of a sudden?

she's the most popular republican right now by far, hitting the trifecta: most popular republican within her party, most popular republican across parties, and most popular republican overseas. considering all this, it's virtually axiomatic that she will be bandied about as a potential candidate all the way until the field is finally formed.

i accept that mccain may have a claim to the popularity titles as well, but condi's got the momentum. plus, enthusiasm for condi doesn't carry the same latent anti-bush/rebel implications. so she's the safe choice to support, especially now, when it's all hypothetical anyway. those questions about how far the republican base is willing to experiment with new phenotypes and chromosomal combinations simply won't be answered until things get more concrete -- if they ever do, since my money right now would be that she won't end up running.

but who knows, stranger things have happened.

peace

Re #16, Janeofalltrades, just to clarify, I wasn't commenting on the appropriateness of her name use, but rather asking whether in fact she did use the name Randhawa because that's how the SM post referred to her, but it didn't seem to be anywhere on her website. Thanks for other link.

I still find her "Final Values" mailer scary though. :)

"Has she ran in any election, where one has to campaign?? How about class president, even??"

The same charge was made against Hillary Clinton in 2000 when she ran for Senate in a state she did not live in.

i accept that mccain may have a claim to the popularity titles as well, but condi's got the momentum

Mention in Page Six and Reliable source does not make momentum. Every year there is a popular candidate who has no realistic chance in the primaries. Remember Powell after the Gulf war.

Given her record as the National security advisor during the Iraq war (I support the war) I don't think she stands a chance. McCain will easily beat her in almost all the primaries as he should. I wish and pray that McCain will beat Hillary in the general election. Hillary as President, shudder.

She's a rock star to the right -

can anyone tell me what this woman did right ? Even her friends say she has been an incredibly weak NSA. Her record as the Sec. of State has been about her fashion choices not about diplomacy. Remember the whole torture debacle in Europe. All I know she is a concert pianist and she knows a lot about Russia. She can play Carnegie Hall or become an ambassador to Russia. She is NOT even qualified to be the secretary of State. If W valued competency more than loyalty she would be back in Stanford now.

Mention in Page Six and Reliable source does not make momentum. Every year there is a popular candidate who has no realistic chance in the primaries. Remember Powell after the Gulf war.

hey, nobody said she's a candidate. this is all idle speculation and will remain so for months or years and maybe for ever. but republicans are yearning for a star, and she has been anointed (and not just by the gossip columns) as star-worthy. i respect that you are a mccain supporter, all i am saying is that he's not the only star in the republican party. perhaps people in the party are pumping her up in order to overshadow or threaten mccain's chances, but hey, that's y'all's problem not mine.

peace

When they polled Iowan R activists last year, she came out on top

I don’t think her popularity with the Iowa R activists has any relevance.

Not all primary voters in Iowa are activists though it has more activists voting than in other states because of the caucus format. Condi has the name recognition factor going for her right now just like Lieberman was leading the early democratic polls till 6 months or so before the first primary.
I don’t believe Iowa Republicans are going to nominate Condi. Remember, these are the same Iowa Republicans who favored Pat Robertson over George Bush in the 1988 presidential election and Pat Buchannan was a close second to Bonb Dole in 96.
I do wonder about the values of the Iowa Republicans where Pat Robertson finishes second in the primaries ahead of George Bush Sr, but then that’s a conundrum that I will leave for the Iowa Republicans to grapple with. I do believe that there will be vicious push polling against Condi regarding her ‘single status’ and ‘non militant pro-life’ (remember McCain and South Carolina and black/desi baby) by her primary opponents and that itself will sink her in the primaries.

She would be a fantastic VP choice, in my opinion. She's a rock star to the right - which I think you know, despite your attempts to paint anyone who doesn't think the way you do a racist.
May I compliment you on your charming debating skills?

Do not create strawman. I know you would like to destroy my straw hut of ‘inferior reasoning’ while sitting on your bulldozer of ‘superior reasoning’. I am not suggesting that all Republican white male voters are racist and I certainly don’t believe Desi Republicans like you, Vinod and KXB are racists. I do believe that the Republicans still benefit from Nixon’s ‘Southern Strategy’ and that it might influence some white no.8 loving male republican voters to not show up to vote for Condi against a Southern White male in areas near the Appalachia in Southern Ohio or Northern Florida. Likewise, some members of the American Taliban might be similarly disinclined to show up for Condi because of her ‘single status’ and non militant ‘pro life’ positions. If the whole base doesn’t show up and only a few decide to stay home, the election will swing the other way.
I don’t believe all Republican voters are racist however to ignore the issue of race and religion and pretend that they wont matter with the Republican base is also a little naïve. Lets see if Matt Romney can go anywhere in the primaries when his opponents raise the ‘Mormons’ are a satanic cult issue with the American Taliban in the primaries.

all i am saying is that he's not the only star in the republican party

Being a star among the chattering classes gets doesnt get you too far.
The Religious right for all practical purposes holds a veto on Republican nominees for President for the next 20 years or so and unless the candidate completely kowtows to the religious right, there is no chance of becoming the nominee.

Nixon’s ‘Southern Strategy’

Or Hubert Humphrey's Southern Strategy. I agree the "foot soldiers" will become totally ambivalent if the candidate does not look/ sound/ empathisize with them or they with the candidate.

I do believe that the Republicans still benefit from Nixon’s ‘Southern Strategy’

Just like the democrats still benefit from comparing any unfavorable situation to a plantation. you guys know what I am talking about! So let us agree that this is the way the game is played today.

Being a star among the chattering classes gets doesnt get you too far

I did not know that all NH primary voters in 2000 were from CNN. He has enough support in the grassroots.

The Religious right for all practical purposes holds a veto on Republican nominees for President for the next 20 years or so and unless the candidate completely kowtows to the religious right, there is no chance of becoming the nominee.

Agreed but Hillary will change the equation this time.If Hillary is going to be the candidate , I think republicans would want a strong well known candidate. Remember why John Kerry won in the primaries. He was the candidate with the best chnace to beat Bush. Similarly, I think this year republicans would want someone who can beat Hillary. Also, John Mccain has strong National security credentials. Guiliani is also good but no foreign policy experience. I think VA's Allen is the only real threat to McCain.

I still think McCain will pull it out.

Yeah, whatever Al M. Whose creating strawmen using terms like American Taliban? Am I supposed to take you seriously with rhetoric like that? And my point about Iowa, since I have to spell this out to you, is that Iowa holds an early primary, so people pay attention to the activists in the state. At least, the kind of geeks who live and die by this stuff. And my second point, because I have to spell this out for you, is that those polls are often wrong. As. I. Stated. In. My. Previous. Comment. Did you bother to read the whole thing, recognizer of the American Taliban and see-er into the hearts of flag-waving redneck types everywhere?

Anyway, I don't care. I don't care for Hillary, I don't care for McCain (McCain-Feingold and baseball hearings anyone?), I don't care for the Republican party right now, and you couldn't pay me to vote for the other 'viable' democratic candidates for president at this point. So, I probably won't be voting in the next election. HAve at it, people.

Mark my words this is what will happen (I've been saying it for a year to friends in private):

Some conservative Republican who caters to the lunatic right (see Allen from Virginia) will win the Republican nomination beating McCain. Maybe Hillary will win the Democratic nomination or maybe it will be Mark Warner, or someone else. What happens next (or should happen next) is that McCain wil leave the Republican party citing a culture of partisanship and corruption in Washington. He will become and independent and will maybe take a few members of the gang of 14 with him. He will then announce his Independent candidacy for the White House and start lining up people like Liberman or Feingold for VP, or Sec of Def., and other heavy hitters like Powell. There will be panic in Washington and both the Republicans and Dems will have to distance themselves from the fringe left and fringe right in order to hold on to their centers, which will defect in overwhelming numbers to McCain. I still won't vote for him but I'd LOVE to see this plan unfold. I'd like to see both parties largely destroyed so they can be rebuilt properly. What would be even better is if someone like Ralph Reed also starts a religious right party. That will box out that whole voting block.

Abhi,

You are talking like what is happening in Israel today, the Kadima Party.

It is possible. But Abramoff's and incumbents will not let happen. It is still plausible.

all i know is that the republican primaries are going to be a bloodbath.

but democrats shouldn't get too excited about that, because the worse it gets the more likely jeb bush will come riding in and we'll end up with round 3 of the dynasty.

the more likely jeb bush will come riding in and we'll end up with round 3 of the dynasty

If Jeb Bush ran he'd get slaughtered. It would be a PR persons dream. Every single ad would have him wearing a crown on his head. Americans would never go for a monarchy if you framed it that way.

I like Abhi's scenario, for a hollywood script !!! McCain can be played by William H Macy The script will be sorrouding McCain and his actions that is going to completely alter american politics, as he is the kind of intense politicial with name recognition. A movie in the Wag the Dog genre.

"If Jeb Bush ran he'd get slaughtered."

No, not at all. If he can get hispanic vote "really" excited, he will be the President of US even before the elections. California, Texas, Florida, New Mexico will be on his side (electoral college math).......why even bother campaigning. Prepare for Jan.20, 2009.

Kush, trust me on this. He has zero chance. The way you can tell is that no big time strategists are trying to recruit him. Can you imagine the bumberstickers alone?

"No more Bush"
"We've tasted enough Bush"
"We've had enough Bush to last a lifetime"

"We've tasted enough Bush"

Didn't Whoopi Goldberg get into trouble for something like this!

Yeah, I'd have a hard time voting for Jeb. Honestly, isn't there anyone else besides a Clinton or a Bush to run this country?

If Jeb Bush ran he'd get slaughtered. It would be a PR persons dream. Every single ad would have him wearing a crown on his head. Americans would never go for a monarchy if you framed it that way.

abhi, if there's any group you can count on to make every point except that most obvious one, it's the democrats. they won't have the balls to portray him this way. oooh, the politics of personal destruction, whatever.

second, if his brother could get elected as the idiot son, why not him, the smarter one?

third, you say no major strategists are going for him. that proves nothing! if jeb runs in an open field with frist, pataki, giuliani, mccain, allen, j. warner, brownback, santorum, and lord knows who else, then, sure, i agree with you, he's got no chance.

but if all of those mf's run and it turns into a bloodbath with the potential to tear the party apart along the lines which already pull at it, and therefore hand the white house over the the dems on a silver platter, then you can bet your desi ass that the party graybeards will look for a consensus candidate who can pull everyone together. and at that point being a bush becomes and advantage: the two previous bushes won and spread the goodies around, so this one will too.

then you can count on the democrats to screw up in some ignominious fashion, and presto! bush the third.

dig it.

siddhartha,

I got to disagree. There are two things you look for when trying to determine the right horse to back.
(1) Who has the most money or access to the most money
(2) Who's train are the big time strategists trying to get aboard (that actually does prove everything). People assume that a select few strategists know something everyone else doesn't, and this causes a chain reaction. Look at how Bob Novak helped to sink the campaign of the woman running against Hillary for NY Senate. Similarly Katherine Harris is hanging on by a thread in FL.

Jeb Bush has two things working against him:
(1) His last name. Voter fatigue makes him a no go. (see MD's response. She is Republican)
(2) The Terry Schiavo fiasco

Here is how primaries play out. If you are a Liberal democrat or a Moderate Republican you may as well go home. Don't even bother running. As our system stands now only a Moderate Democrat or a Extremely Conservative Republican can win. Here is why. No Republican can win the Republican nomination without kissing the outstreched hand of the Religious extreme right. No liberal Democrat can win because most Democrats are worried that then they won't be able to grab enough of the independent center vote to offset all the religious right supporters that will show up on election day.

The Democrats aren't dumb. They are simply hamstrung. If I were a Democratic Strategist I would play up the rift between the Republican Party and their religuous base. If a right wing party forms to offset the Green Party then we are back in business. Until then we will, as a party, have to remain pretty close to the center to have a shot at running this country.

So, I probably won't be voting in the next election.

Great!
I am hoping more of your fellow Republicans feel the same way you do. We dont need you to vote for a Democrat. We just want to make sure that you stay home on election day.

And my point about Iowa, since I have to spell this out to you, is that Iowa holds an early primary, so people pay attention to the activists in the state. At least, the kind of geeks who live and die by this stuff. And my second point, because I have to spell this out for you,

Thank you. With my inferior reading comprehension skills, I need everything spelled out in great detail.

My. Previous. Comment. Did you bother to read the whole thing, recognizer of the American Taliban and see-er into the hearts of flag-waving redneck types everywhere?

What is in the hearts of flag-waving redneck types everywhere?

Some conservative Republican who caters to the lunatic right (see Allen from Virginia) will win the Republican nomination beating McCain. Maybe Hillary will win the Democratic nomination or maybe it will be Mark Warner, or someone else. What happens next (or should happen next) is that McCain wil leave the Republican party citing a culture of partisanship and corruption in Washington

I really really hope this scenario becomes a reality. An Independent McCain will destroy the Republican majority as the Republican suburbanites will all vote for him. He will never get enough votes to win the electoral college and McCain cant steal enough votes from Democrats to beat them. For example, African Americans are not going to flock to McCain and will still vote for the Democrats.
I think a more likely scenario is that McCain will accept the VP position and wait for another 4/8 years to make another run for the Presidency. McCain though might not want to wait till 2012 though because hes already 69 years old.

What would be even better is if someone like Ralph Reed also starts a religious right party
Delicious! However unless they become fiscally liberal, the Republicans agree with them on most social issues anyway so they wont really have a platform to run on.

Kush, trust me on this. He has zero chance. The way you can tell is that no big time strategists are trying to recruit him. Can you imagine the bumberstickers alone?

If Karl Rove does not get indicted, the Bushie PR juggernaut might just steamroll all of Jeb Bush's primary opponents.

If Karl Rove does not get indicted, the Bushie PR juggernaut might just steamroll all of Jeb Bush's primary opponents.

Last I heard Rove had never even considered backing Jeb. The two people he HAS considered backing are Frist and McCain (although it isn't clear if the latter wanted him). This was about a year ago so things might change. I'll bet Rove takes a lobbying job and makes some money instead.

(1) Who has the most money or access to the most money

I dont it matters that much anymore. This of course has been the convential wisdom but look at the de-railment of Dean. His money machine plus endorsements were way ahead of everybody else till the Iowa Caucus. Unless you have the resources or the clout that Bush had, once you have a decent amount of money, more money is not going to help your cause in the media age. The days of Perot, Steve Forbes are over.

Here is how primaries play out. If you are a Liberal democrat or a Moderate Republican you may as well go home. Don't even bother running. As our system stands now only a Moderate Democrat or a Extremely Conservative Republican can win. Here is why. No Republican can win the Republican nomination without kissing the outstreched hand of the Religious extreme right. No liberal Democrat can win because most Democrats are worried that then they won't be able to grab enough of the independent center vote to offset all the religious right supporters that will show up on election day.

Couldnt agree more. Its all about kowtowing to the religious right for the Republicans and the electability factor for the Democrats.

The only way to neutralize the Republicans is to neutralize the religious/cultural wedge issue. Mark Warner just showed us how it could be done in a red state like Virginia and Clinton did it with his Sister Souljah moment.

abhi --

remember the scenario i am talking about. i am assuming that jeb does not run. instead, all the other people i mentioned, plus or minus a few, run. and they split the vote, exposing the divisions within the party. their debate is acrimonious and it turns off voters. the center starts moving towards the democrats, who in the meantime are generating their own candidate according to the principles that you aptly described.

so there is an emergency. suddenly, all those strategists you're talking about, and the media pundits like novak who carry their water, are facing something much worse than their favorite candidate losing: they are facing the loss of power.

what's held the republican party together since reagan despite all the internal differences that we know, is simply access to power. i hate you and you hate me, but we're both feeding at the same trough and getting our fill, so it's all good. (attention republicans: this porcine metaphor is not directed solely at your party. it is directed at whoever is in power anywhere in the world, which at the united states federal level happens to be your party at this time.)

take away the trough, and we both lose. so our principal interest is keeping hold of the trough.

who do we look to? there's been way too much mutual destruction among the many candidates. we need to draft someone. guess what? someone is ready. he hasn't run, for the reasons properly evinced on this thread. but now he is drafted to the great relief of everyone, because he'll bring together the base, as his brother did, and snooker enough centrists and the democrats will find a way to implode.

don't put too much importance on where the strategists place their bets. them mofos ALWAYS have contingency plans, and are ALWAYS keeping their options open. how do you think they lasted in the game this long?

anyway, i don't think our disagreement here is that great. i'm saying, there's a perfectly plausible scenario that leads to jeb being the nominee. whether the conditions that trigger the scenario come about, i don't know.

but i'm just sayin'.

peace

and McCain cant steal enough votes from Democrats to beat them

I'll bet you $20 you're wrong. If McCain runs then the Green Party will come roaring out of the woodwork and strip the Dems left flank of votes.

Last I heard Rove had never even considered backing Jeb.

I dont believe Jeb Bush will run in 2008. If he did run, Rove will either be with Jeb Bush or not participate at all. He is not going to go against the Bushies.
Rove did try to prop up Frist, but Frist is a done deal now.
I actually agree with you on both counts,
(1) Jeb Bush will not run
(2) Rove will go private. I think he will probably get indicted though.

Man, we need more political discussions on SM :) Right now I only have West Wing to keep me satisfied.

Abhi,

I started it (Comment #.1). They have been some very interesting ideas.

But why, except MD and samba, no card-carrying member from GOP is talking. Keeping cards close to their chest.

Most of the comments are mostly from leftish (not entlrely left) or centrists - I am guessing from their tone. We have not heard from Ben Afleck-types either. Why?

But why, except MD and samba, no card-carrying member from GOP is talking.

Because I've banned them all :)

If McCain runs then the Green Party will come roaring out of the woodwork and strip the Dems left flank of votes

I disagree. For that to happen, the Left flank will have to be unafraid of McCain getting elected.
The left flank votes for the Greens in such low numbers because they are mortally afraid of electing the republicans.
McCain has already become the cave man on Iran and his sabre rattling on Iran will only increase as he moves into the Republican primary season. The Left flank will be scared shitless of McCain and they will again chose the lesser evil i.e. the democrats. War with Iran will be the number one issue foreign policy issue in 2008. The Left flank would be desperately trying to stop the war and they will again sacrifice the greens to make sure that the Dems get back in power.
Also we can always count on the egomania of Nader to destroy the Greens again in 2008.

Man, we need more political discussions on SM :)

Yes and more sports too.

See I think that a McCain run would allow the Greens to feel that it was okay to be Green. The utter chaos that would follow a McCain announcement would inspire other people to vote their conscience instead of worrying about electoral math.

But why, except MD and samba, no card-carrying member from GOP is talking.

Because I've banned them all :)

that cracked me up.

but i have a better theory. it's because this is a difficult topic for them. in fact, a mccain supporter did speak up on this thread. and we've talked about condi. but i'd like to hear an argument enthusiastically supporting any one of the others i mentioned. are there any frist, pataki, giuliani, brownback, john warner, allen, santorum, supporters out there who'd like to make the case for their man?

i didn't think so.

or prove me wrong! mccain, i can fully understand, has supporters who are not ashamed to show their face. but the rest of this gang... ???

which brings me back to my jeb scenario.

and kush,

Most of the comments are mostly from leftish (not entlrely left) or centrists - I am guessing from their tone. We have not heard from Ben Afleck-types either. Why?

my political views, when projected onto the surface of this lonely planet, usually land on the left. however i prefer outer space, where i can work out my opinions free from the strictures of two-dimensional spectra. don't you?

peace

See I think that a McCain run would allow the Greens to feel that it was okay to be Green. The utter chaos that would follow a McCain announcement would inspire other people to vote their conscience instead of worrying about electoral math.

I agree. In normal circumstances where the debate is over tax cuts, prescription drugs and other national issues, a McCain run will galvenize 3rd parties including the the Constitutional Party, the America First Party (Reform Party) with Buchannan (maybe with Tancredo as a running mate with the immigration issue what it is now) and the Green Party.
I think Iran will be a major crisis in 2008 and US will be very close to launching a major military action against Iran in 2008. I just dont think it will be policits as usual in 2008 with a major war lurking on the horizon.

Man, we need more political discussions on SM :)

Yes and more sports too.

We need more debauchery in general on SM, but I suspect Abhi's dad might then get his son married off to some sidhi-sadhi chokri from Ahmedabad and permanently lock him up in their basement to keep him out of trouble.....