Just yesterday CBC aired a made for tv film based on Jassi Kaur Sidhu, the woman from BC who was allegedly murdered by her family for marrying an autorickshaw driver in Punjab without their knowledge (a documentary based on these events aired on CBC last year) Most of the culprits in India have been tried and have received sentences, but the RCMP has been dragging its feet on the investigation in Canada. The govt. has also refused to extradite the family members believed to be responsible for the muder (her mother and uncle) based on the fact that they might be served the death penalty if convicted. I've linked a website from the documentary here

awful.

also, now I remember why I hate Naipaul.

also, now I remember why I hate Naipaul.

Such a predictably knee-jerk reaction. Let's keep sugar-coating our troubled world, shall we? And let's keep hating those who show us the shadows.

I'm sorry, do we know each other? Do you know anything of my "troubled world"? What has happened to Rani Sandhu is undescribably horrid. I feel no need to further expound, beyond wishing her family peace and clarity in justice.

she died of a heart attack after throwing up following a bad reaction to an apple.

Evil stepmother (-in-law).

People like the Sandhus form India's ruling classes and they keep the country in the third world.

I hate Naipaul not so much because of his content, but more because there is such callousness in what he writes. It's hardly a parody. Or for that matter, even a subject worth parodying.

manish, i'm shocked that you would fan the flames of orientalist caricatures of south asians. why not posts about all the european women beaten by their husbands?

I'm pleased to see that there are others besides me who find Naipaul insufferable :)

On a more serious note, arguably one of the world's most dubious online newspapers, the timesofindia.com, has something on 'provoked', which deals with the issue of female abuse within the sikh diaspora. and for once, they actually do raise an interesting question: how will this movie be received by the same?

Personally, the best part of their article was aishwarya saying: "A lot of people believe that an actor must look like the person she's enacting. But I think it's far more important to `feel' like Kiranjit Ahluwalia than to look like her." Yes, we wouldn't actually pay to watch a movie in which ms. rai's timeless and glacial beauty is not on display, would we? *hurl*

Why the hatred for Naipaul? He describes a scene that was not uncommon in the world he writes about - that of working class Hindus in Trinidad in which domestic violence took place. So in his story he describes it. Why the repulsion? I don't understand. It is not that he is 'parodying' it - he is describing a reality.

i'm shocked that you would fan the flames of orientalist caricatures of south asians. why not posts about all the european women beaten by their husbands?

True. There are over 300 calls a month on the domestic abuse hotline in New York City alone. PBS did an excellent 2 part series on domestic abuse. It is hard to comprehend why women who've grown up in a so-called free society are still so subjugated. Nevertheless, it's good to report these things when they occur in India. I just don't buy the theory any more that women are worse off in India. I think these things are just sensationalized more. There are no statistics available in any country other than India on women murdered by their husbands. It would be interesting to compare.

The case of Jassi Kaur Sidhu is a bit different. There, the family didn't approve of her marrying a poor man, and apparently arranged to have her killed in India. (If I remember correctly, her mother and uncle are actually wanted there for the murders.) The Fifth estate recently ran their documentary on the murder, which is pretty informative. It's also pretty depressing since the uncle is still driving around BC in his benz, while her husband languishes in prison on fabricated rape charges.

Also, that is a a very chilling quote; I'm not sure where the hostility towards Naipaul is coming from. It's not like he's beating your wife.

I just don't buy the theory any more that women are worse off in India

I do. I don't have statistics but I think domestic violence is more widespread amongst desi's both in India and in the diaspora. I also think there is less done to report it. Especially amongst first generation immigrants.

i'm horrified-- i hope that the victim's 10-month old daughter is okay and NOT with the in-laws. when will this shit end?

"I don't have statistics but I think domestic violence is more widespread amongst desi's both in India and in the diaspora."

How do you know this? Where is the data? Give me something to work with - some real estimates. I am being serious.

I am not excusing violence amongst desis or in India.

Just perception. There is lot of violence here in America just lurking beneath the surface.

Violence is sin where ever it is commited but let's be careful about generalizing.

V.S. Naipaul parodied these repulsive attitudes nearly 50 years ago. Has anything changed?

That's a valid concern, however, it's slightly out of context here. This particular case was not much about a pattern of domestic in India, but plain assholery. That's not to deny there is domestic violence - hell there're dowry deaths - but to say this incident reflects societal attitudes* is quite simplistic.

* - I imagine you referred to societal attitudes; if not, my comment is withdrawn.

i hope that the victim's 10-month old daughter is okay and NOT with the in-laws.

... [The victim's mother] said through an interpreter she will commit suicide in front of the home of her son-in-law's parents if she doesn't get answers and custody of her granddaughter Simran. [Link]

How do you know this? Where is the data? Give me something to work with - some real estimates. I am being serious.

Kush Tandon

I don't have statistics - I only have my own perceptions. I do not think that it is controversial to say that violence against women is endemic in India - in the diaspora I can say that there is a culture of denial over domestic violence - women suffer because of the pressure to conform in the extended family, and so on. So to a certain extent it is probably difficult to get accurate statistics.

That's a valid concern, however, it's slightly out of context here.

I'm drawing a broad analogy here, women are often still treated as chattel and less than human.

Ramanan - true. Still, some of the similarities are chilling - murder in cold blood at the hands of family and the fact that transnational nature of the crime means (at least with regards to the Canadian justice system) that the culprits are still walking around free.

This is the most frustrating and anger inducing aspect of the aftermath as far as I am concerened:

Bindar Brar claims corruption among politicians and police will prevent any investigation into his niece's death.

"Nobody is listening to us. The Sandhus are well-connected politically, so the police are not investigating. They are telling the family nothing," said Bindar Brar.

The irony that is reflected in the Naipaul excerpt is exactly that such domestic violence is not relegated purely to the domain of the private sphere, as is more likely in cases of domestic violence in Western societies.

Now she too would have tales to tell of her husband’s beatings; and when she went home she would be able to look sad and sullen as every woman should - Naipaul actually does capture the blurring of the private/public divide in South Asian societies very well when he says this. That is the underlying problem here: that on a societal scale, violence against women seems to be condoned more in South Asia than perhaps elsewhere.

right on desidude... its this continual patriarchal, wife-beating, and sheer idiocy of such cultural extremes that are tied especially to the ruling bureaucracy that keep india base....

this is so disgusting. poor woman.

"especially to the ruling bureaucracy that keep india base...."

Some real examples from ruling bureaucracy will help. Give me something, mister. Please

Why don't somebody find out normalized numbers from UN, WHO, UNICEF studies, and then we can really talk. Maybe, India is 100X than USA, 50X than UK, 25X than South Africa, and so forth.

Let's do a quiz, what are the highest murders/ homicides per capita in the world - this is slightly tangential to female violence but at least I made the effort. Where does South Africa, USA, and India rank? You will be surprised. Some answers:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_percap
http://members.fortunecity.com/multi19/homicide.htm

Sure, there is perhaps under-reporting in India but still perception only does not cut it. Maybe, these studies are faulty but we have a leg to stand on.

Please be aware no one condoning violence

Kush,

you know as well as I do that most bride burnings (for example) are classified as kitchen accidents. There are no good figures on relative rates of domestic violence, even fatal domestic violence. However, there are good reasons to believe that it would be higher in India than in the US:

1. Strong tendency towards fetal sex selection argues that women are not valued highly

2. Infanticide of girl children argues the same

3. Dowry provides an incentive for abuse and murder that does not exist in the US. Even if the US and India had the same rates of base domestic violence, this added incentive would increase domestic violence in India.

4. Domestic violence in India is even more taboo than in the US. The women that I know were victims of domestic violence in the US reached out for help at some point in the process, none of the women that I know were victims of domestic violence in India did.

5. While victims of domestic violence lack options in both countries, victims in India have fewer options. Indian women have, on average, less education and job experience. Furthermore, tradition dictates that women in India return home when they have marital problems, and are often rejected by their parents.

6. The US has had decades of education about domestic violence, it is now widely accepted as a serious offense. In India, the same is not true.

For these reasons, I think it would be highly unlikely for the rates to be equal between the two countries. However, I do not have the data to demonstrate this.

Everytime someone starts a statement with "I don't have the statistics" you know they are about to say something spectacularly stupid.

Ennis,

In broad sense, what ever you are saying, I fully agree. No argument at all. The "kitchen accident" is real and appreciable in India.

I just wanted some sense of prespective, some numbers - violence in different societies take different shape.

If somebody came here and showed me that India is 1000X more violence toward females than US, I will respect their efforts and say a few words of appreciation.

I know in general a female in India is more vulnerable than here.

I agree with you.

Everytime someone starts a statement with "I don't have the statistics" you know they are about to say something spectacularly stupid

Nacheez, can you point out what you find to be 'spectacularly stupid' about my post number 16? I am scratching my head trying to understand what is 'spectacular' or particularly stupid about the following:

I do not think that it is controversial to say that violence against women is endemic in India - in the diaspora I can say that there is a culture of denial over domestic violence - women suffer because of the pressure to conform in the extended family, and so on.

Ennis, I'm not disagreeing with you. And this thread is most definitely not about which country has a higher crime rate against women. However, I do believe that some of the things that you have listed might have more to do with perception and parrotting what one hears or reads in the popular media (which is not always the best source) rather than hard facts. (I'm obviously no authority on this so if someone can point me to links/studies that state otherwise, I shall stand corrected.)

On a related and more personal note, a girl I know was recently assaulted in a college campus. Yes, in the US of A. She's been in shock and refuses to report it. Most girls know this is not an isolated incident. Underreporting of crimes (especially against women) is unfortunately very common.

Agreed that there is under-reporting of violence against women in the US. I've trained as a volunteer in this area, so I'm aware of this fact. However, my personal experience in both places argues that the under-reporting is considerably more in India than here. Similarly, while dowry violence might be amplified by the media, this is something that I know about directly as well. In short, violence against women in the US seems like a subset of that in India. Everything that happens here can happen there, but there are many things that happen there (bride burning) that would not happen here. For example, in the above case, there would have been an autopsy, and probably a murder case filed. The family would have known that they could not have kept the money and custody of the grandchild. A case like the one above is much less likely to happen in the US.

MJ - which factors do you think might be more a matter of perception than reality?

i find it galling the impunity connections affords

Everytime someone starts a statement with "I don't have the statistics" you know they are about to say something spectacularly stupid.

not necessarily. but, you do weight their assertion far lower in terms of credibility, their comment is more of an illustration of an assumption than an indication as to its validity (speaking as someone who does love numbers and their potential for objective ascertainment).

MJ - which factors do you think might be more a matter of perception than reality?

that was a generalized statement based on my belief (experience) that people make a lot of generalized statements about India without knowing the true facts. fortunately most people here, including you, cannot be accused of that. here is the statement that triggered off my response...

4. Domestic violence in India is even more taboo than in the US. The women that I know were victims of domestic violence in the US reached out for help at some point in the process, none of the women that I know were victims of domestic violence in India did.

i personally do not know whether this is true based on both my interaction with people in/from India and in the US. again, i do not have any basis to back what i am saying other than hearsay and conversations with friends who volunteer with "battered and abused" women here in the US (as an administrator of the site you can obviously pinpoint the city I live in if you so choose). it is their estimate that only around 50% of domestic violence cases are reported even in the US. This combined with the fact that there seems to be increasing awareness in India regarding women's rights (based on what I am told by people working in this field rather than on news stories) makes me wonder whether comparitively speaking women are so much worse off in India as compared to the US. The US most definitely has a better support system in place and more awareness (and some of the issues are different. date rape and abusive dating relationships are a big problem here, not so much in india. not yet. on the other hand, the issue of domestic abuse related to dowry is non existent in the US). I was just questioning how much better it really is (similar to what Kush was doing I guess).
On re-reading your post, you seem to be speaking from your personal experience and knowledge too so maybe I was off base with the whole "parrotting the perception that the media potrays" thing.
Finally, I wasn't trying to prove any point one way or the other. I'm just trying to learn more about this issue. If people have links to studies they can point me too, please do post them.

MJ, here's evidence for point 4, greater tolerance for domestic violence in India than in the US:

In fact, hardly any statistics about domestic violence are available, though a study conducted in association with the International Centre for Research on Women (ICRW) suggests 80 per cent men from Punjab think violence is justified if wife is "disrespectful" and 60 per cent justify it if wife "does not follow instructions". [Link]

I can't vouch for the methodology of the study, nor have I seen it first hand. Honestly, that number feels high. Still, given that people would tend to hide their attitudes in the face of strong social disapproval, if legit, this survey shows that such social disapproval does not yet exist in the Punjab, and perhaps not in the rest of India either.

DDIA

People like the Sandhus form India's ruling classes and they keep the country in the third world.

I hate Naipaul not so much because of his content, but more because there is such callousness in what he writes. It's hardly a parody. Or for that matter, even a subject worth parodying.

And here's an estimate (again, I can't vouch for it) on how much domestic abuse is reported in India:

In India ... Approximately 30% of crime is reported. [Link]

Naipaul is describing a violence so ritualized it were as if it occurred between two consenting adults.

So does the Punjab police report.

It would be great if that happened to you with Naipaul, except, instead of the speech he simply loosens his belt...

Has anyone ever told you your fantasies are kink? Your tiny is the message.

thanks for the links. from the same link (the 2nd one).

On average, in the United Kingdom:
Only about one in 20 incidents of domestic violence are reported to the police, even though domestic violence is considered to be a crime that can be punished by law.

Also,

On average, in the United Kingdom:
Everyday one woman is killed every day
A woman is beaten 37 times before reporting to the police
there are 600 incidents of domestic violence every minute
in 90% of DV crimes, children are in the room at the time

I wish the second link had provided some basis for either of its claims, honestly.

Here is a site on DV stats in the US: http://www.abanet.org/domviol/stats.html

6. The US has had decades of education about domestic violence, it is now widely accepted as a serious offense. In India, the same is not true.

Exerpts from article:
Back in India, she accused him of demanding a dowry and filed a complaint against him under Section 498A of the Indian Penal Code. Commonly called "498A," the section defines the offense of "matrimonial cruelty" and makes demanding dowry a crime.
The law has been a lifesaver for women who have faced harassment or torture at the hands of their husband or his family. Offenders face up to three years' imprisonment and a fine.
But 498A has become a nightmare for many husbands as well. In some cases where the accused husband has left India, judges have refused bail unless his family deposits a sum of money in his name as a precondition to the grant of bail; some men say their parents have been taken into custody as well. Ajay says he has had to pay a total of $10,000 in legal expenses to keep his own parents in India out of jail.

MORAL: There is always another side to *everything*.

Does anybody know if the husband will live in Canada?

This is another example of backward jatt world of punjab.

I'm may have been born a jatt, but I don't act like one.

Ack.. That's a truly horrible story and yet...so unsurprising these days.

On another tangent, I think you've further piqued my interest in Naipaul, Manish. So thanks for that. =]

Xfile, I didn't mean that India didn't have the laws. I meant that Indian society doesn't consider domestic abuse to be as serious a "very bad thing to do" (i.e. non-criminal offense, action, thingo) as American society does. I backed that up with a survey from Punjab.

PearlJamFan,

No reason for you to berate your entire ethnicity here in front of everyone. Jatt culture, like every culture, has good and bad points. Learn to embrace the good. And the type of behavior shown by this particular Sandhu family happens throughout India, not just Punjab or amongst Jatts.

I know you guys are a handful of people, but I just realized how many dudes are on here discussing domestic violence. That in itself is inspiring, and a sign that a larger consciousness about this issue has registered with men - not just with women - along the way.

And Ennis, trained as a volunteer? Go on with your bad self! Even if it's anecdotal and not statistical, the fact that there is a large segment of the population that considers such things as serious and reprehensible, I see that as cause for hope.

Not being Pollyanna here. Because definitely, not enough has changed. But things are changing...and I think it's vital to note that, otherwise it's all too easy to write the issue off, not get involved, not believe that individual efforts add up to a collective difference...

I saw the movie here in Canada last night. It was very well done and sad. The CBC has also done various documentaries and reports on the case that's now over 6 years old. The death of Sandhu is all over the Winnipeg papers and the editorials are nothing short of sympathetic and very very sad :( especially those who are concern about the baby.

Women bashing is India's national sport.

You can request Kamayani who works for Cehat, to give you the statistics.

You can also help, if you would like to.

Interesting book to read:

The woman who walked onto doors.

Amazon.com says:
Roddy Doyle follows Paddy Clarke Ha Ha Ha, winner of the Booker Prize, and The Commitments with another remarkable book that readers will find funny, sexy, and sad. He takes an unflinching look at the life of Paula Spencer as she struggles to regain her dignity after marriage to an abusive husband and a worsening drinking problem. Capturing both her vulnerability and her strength, Doyle gives Paula a voice that is real and unforgettable.

Women bashing is India's national sport.

True to some extent; there is a hell of a lot of casual misogyny over there. And I would also agree that there is a greater degree of implicit cultural support for domestic violence against women in India, as long as it's either "kept behind closed doors" or if the general consensus is that the victim somehow "deserves" it.

Re: Bride burnings/kitchen accidents.....

A Rajasthani poet created a very clever verse on the prevalence of "kitchen accidents" being used to cover up the murders of young wives/daughters-in-law:

"How is the stove so intelligent, that it can always differentiate between the mother-in-law and the bride ?"

Think about it.

Statistics are only as good as the statisticians, or rather the data gathering mechanisms themselves, which this groups knows, of course. You have to be very careful with the numbers cited by some organizations, particularly if their funding is tied to perceptions about how widespread is the problem they are combatting. Uh, you know what I'm trying to say.

As for why this woman (MD, me!), with a history that sort of peripherally pertains to this post, didn't immediately comment? Well, I got turned off as soon as it turned into a typical, "it's more important to save face than it is to discuss the woman," meme. Why is it so much more important to talk about how rates of domestic violence might be the same in the US and India, than the woman? Even if bride-burnings were more widespread in the West than in India, why should't the first reaction be, "why does this happen and how can we stop it?", rather than automatically jumping to how this makes us look????????? I'm slightly depressed by this all.

I love Naipaul's writing: if he seems callous, it's only because he dared to write about things that are not easy to write about. I know his political ideas are anathema to many on this board (and I can't say I'm too familiar with them, but I get that impression), but when it's just me and his words on a page, I think: man, can he write.

Did anyone catch that documentary on CBC, where Punjabi families from Canada would go to rural Punjab to find a wife, get married, take the dowry to Canada, while leaving the wife in India, and then divorce her in Canada. It was just an elaborate scam and despicable to say the least.

alybaba: they covered it. it is despicable.

slightly OT, but that search box is useful.

Did anyone catch that documentary on CBC, where Punjabi families from Canada would go to rural Punjab to find a wife, get married, take the dowry to Canada, while leaving the wife in India, and then divorce her in Canada. It was just an elaborate scam and despicable to say the least.

Clearly, the reverse also happens - see my previous post. Women can work the system too, when they have the power to so. In traditional systems they are abused in situations of high vulnerability (new daughter-in-law in strange family being the classic scenario) wherein there is a high imbalance of power.
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Thanks for bringing up such a thought provoking issue!

It's a very real and sad reality, but it's something that needs to be changed by the newer generations that have grown out of and away from such practices.
Rather than developing a self loathing attitude and attempting to distance and disconnect ourselves, we should approach the issue head on.
I am not Indian, but as a Pakistani I know that these practices and other gruesome incidences happen as easily in either country.
It is disgusting and embarrasing, but every country has it's own set of issues....this one just happens to be predominant in that area.
Awareness and education are the stepping stones towards change.
This is a good start.

This incident sure is sad and unfortunate. It also shoked me as I grew up seeing my friends' sister get blessings (along with $$) from a local pundit in an annual "kanya puja" (girl prayer/blessings).

but when it's just me and his words on a page, I think: man, can he write.

Well said MD. The only way a reader should enjoy writing. Leave their politics and opinions out of it (especially when you are reading fiction). Naipaul,rightly, is considered to be in the top tier of today's writrs.

"why should't the first reaction be, "why does this happen and how can we stop it?", rather than automatically jumping to how this makes us look?????????"

excellent point.

--

it is difficult as hell to be a woman in india.

i was in jaipur this weekend on business, was meeting some colleagues for dinner, got lost on the way, my auto driver stopped to ask directions, and the young men who gave him directions spied me, a single female, in the backseat and preceded to corner me and grab me in various disgusting ways in the moments it took for me to get the auto driver to speed off.

this is just one incident, just one night, but my telling it will probably spark the memory of many women reading this to remember their own encounters with public physical assault/molesting -- it is just that common.

i believe a similar issue prevails with domestic violence -- beating a woman does not have the same signifigance as beating a child because, and forgive me the lack of numbers but it's 1 am and i don't want to look it up, the cases of child abuse in terms of beating of children (not sexual) is extremely low in comparison to wife-beating. that adds another dimension.

on another note: there was a discussion on the "missing girls" -- this past week, i was in a village in rajasthan, near jaisalmer, meeting with women that were organizing into a self-help group and they openly admitted to female infanticide (but claimed that only the men commit it, and usually while drunk) and a door-to-door survey revealed a sex ratio that roughly works out to 500 girls for every 1000 boys. so it would seem the girls are missing still.

This talk of misogynistic attitudes in India reminds me of this woman in Bangalore who started a project to bring awareness to the problem with 'eve-teasing'. I am not sure if the website was put up here but I think it is quite commendable. One step towards reducing the commidification of women in India really.

it is difficult as hell to be a woman in india.

I had no idea that Punjabis have 'honour killings' too. Thought this dreadful practice was limited to muslims :(

Bengali,

Unfortunately, so-called "honour killings" occur throughout India and are not restricted to any single region or members of any particular religious community. It's right across the board.

It probably does occur more in some communities than in others, of course, but I don't know what the exact percentage breakdown is in that regard.

*but I don't know what the exact percentage breakdown is in that regard.

Although here in the UK, the vast majority of such incidents (actual or attempted) do occur amongst Muslims.

About post #52

Of the 30,000 cases of women marry NRI in India, 16,000 of those taken place in punjab. The sad thing is these women had no choice to marry, yet there lifes are all but over.

About post # 60

The only 2 honor killing of Canadian girls have been of punjabi sikh girls. And if this counts as an honor killing then it would be 3 for 3.

About post # 45

I'm sorry if I said something wrong. I have spoken out here to punjabi leaders about the issue of sexism among my people but they have fallen on deaf ears.

It was about a year ago when the trial of Amandeep Atwal was going on. She was killed by her father for having a white boyfriend. Yet during the trial many people in the punjabi community came to support the father including the sikh temple leaders and all of the girl/father family. But nobody in the sikh/punjabi community spoke up for the dead girl. It was something that made me upset with my own family.

Hello Everyone: From time to time, I read your articles and the comments and I find the discussions and exchange of opinions very interesting and knowledgeable. I would like to find out if the host of this site allows strangers to participate. A bit about me, am originally from Guyana but currently living in Canada, the Province where both incidents, referred to by Post #63, were orchestrated and occurred. Naipaul won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2001. I have to admit that when I first read "A House for Mr. Biswas", I too thought he was ridiculing Indian values and customs, it was the opposite. He is a great writer. Thank you