February 12, 2006
Why they hate BollywoodFilm
I recently debated the future of Bollywood among American desis with a couple of second genners who aren’t fans of the cinema. ‘Asoka’ thinks assimilation will make Bollywood irrelevant in the U.S. desi community, because the movies are poorly-written. I argue improvements in quality, distribution and filtering point to a bright future. The ever-reasoned ‘Birbal’ split the difference. Names have been changed to protect them from the Bollyfans who walk among us.
| ‘Asoka’ Bollywood will vanish among desi Americans |
“I‘ll bet you $20 it doesn’t change. U.S. desis, especially the new generations, are more assimilated. They (and I’m one of them) will never be into Bollywood. I view Bollywood as an example of the excesses and frivolity of our culture and not something I am interested in preserving for myself or my offspring. I can count the number of friends I have that like Bollywood films on one finger (men and women)… even the girls I know don’t like Bollywood, and I have as many if not more female friends than male friends.
“The U.S. model will never mimic the UK model unless we start forming ethnic ghettos here. If that happens then I think you’ll be right. What it comes down to is that most Bollywood stories suck by western standards. Production value means nothing when the best Bollywood film would be a C-list Western film.
“The reason that smart Bollywood commentary is lacking is because there isn’t much coming out of Bollywood that can be considered smart… The last Hindi film I saw was Mr. and Mrs Iyer, which I thought was decent. The last Bollywood film I saw was in India and Toral from The Apprentice was in it. I’ve seen Devdas and KKKG and thought they were so bad I wanted to rip my eyeballs out. The only Bollywood film I actually liked was Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, and by American movie standards it was just okay… Yes, if you are [non-desi] it is exotic and quaint…
“I go to [Indian film festivals]… they have some great Hindi language film and Tamil language films. I both enjoy them and would take my kids to see them someday. They are not, however, Bollywood films, which in my view tend to advocate materialism and shallowness, bigotry against other races, and bigotry in their representation of 2nd gen Indians living abroad. For those reasons I would not expose my children to Bollywood films.
“I still think it’s about the ghettos. We will see in 10 years. I think if you [polled] under-26 Sepia Mutiny readers, they [would] overwhelmingly be non-Bollywood watchers.”
| ‘Birbal’ Bollywood will spread, but I’m not a fan |
“I‘m not a fan of Bollywood at all. Even Lagaan, which was supposed to be a good film, wasn’t as good as most mediocre western movies I’ve seen, and I like movie musicals and emo…
“I watch movies with subtitles, but I’ve never seen a great Bollywood film. The best was - OK, entertaining, sort of like a mediocre big budget blockbuster in the US. At the best, we’re talking around Pirates of the Caribbean level…
“That said, I think [Asoka] is wrong at judging the audience… [The young] know much about Bollywood. I actually see this increasing, since the younger generation grew up with Zee TV on the satellite, while we did not.
“I went to see Lagaan with two American women, Bollywood is the new Chinese cinema for lots of hip urbanites. They see it as exotic and quaint, still it’s making inroads…”
|
Manish |
Bollywood’s popularity among U.S. desis will increase. We know this empirically.
Part of why desi Americans don’t watch Bollywood is distribution and filtering. There isn’t any decent theater nearby, so you only get crappy, pirated videotapes. And you have no friends who watch, so you don’t know which one movie every few months is decent.
But the future points to more Bolly in the U.S. In the UK you have broad distribution of Hindi films at mainstream cineplexes, you don’t need to drive an hour. Same in some cities in Canada. Same will happen here, it’s inevitable. Birbal nails it, distribution is way up among younger desis with 4-8 desi satellite channels and movie downloads online. My youngest brother got into Bollywood via the Net and female friends who watch. Lots of desi college girls are very into Bollywood, with posters all over their walls.
It’s really, qualitatively different seeing an official print on a big screen vs. a 3rd-gen pirated copy at home — the colors, the sharpness, the sound. It’s 3x better an experience. A lot of the technical quality flaws are due to the medium in which you’re seeing it.
Yes, there are only a handful of smart, original movies, three to four a year. Going randomly without filtering (like I sometimes do 
) is going to waste your time. Those three to four totally rock, though, and those who miss them are missing out in a big way, not just for the movies themselves but also for the cultural landmarks they become. It’s like missing Star Wars when it first came out, or Born on the Fourth of July, or Munich. Bonus: they invariably star attractive desis.
Also, this is a moving target. Someone who timed out on this three years ago would have dismissed the huge upshift in slickness that just happened (slick CGI and cut screens, better acting, adventurousness in screenplays, physically fit actors), just like if you dismissed India three years ago you would’ve missed all the Baristas, highways, ATMs and shopping malls.
Bollywood is the love that dare not speak its name. In the U.S. it’s largely a female phenomenon among second-genners, and the only guys who even realize it’s there are those who hang out with women and their female friends. People don’t talk a lot of Bollywood on SM in part because that’s what Sulekha and friends are for.
Yes, there’s a much higher percentage of poorly-written stories in cinema of a less developed country. You go through consumerism and cheese before you get to restraint and irony. But those 3-4 a year are neither C-list in the U.S. nor A-list. They’re something you can’t get in American cinema. At all. They’re like gelato in Italy or fireworks in London or deep dish pizza in Chicago, they’re in a league of their own. Western films are ridiculously unadventurous with emotion. They’re the Keanu Reeves of global cinema. And I don’t yet know whether Asoka is in the 95% who lack distribution and filtering, or the hardcore 5% who don’t like emo cinema.
Also, they’re all subtitled now, and it’s not a monolithic category any more. Instead of just romance and action, there’s now horror, sci-fi, artier flicks and so on. A new film out, Zinda, is a rip of an edgy Korean movie, Oldboy — instead of cloning big cheesy American flicks they’re fanning out to much more novel stories. This is all recent, last 3-5 years.
Lagaan looked slow and overhyped (I haven’t watched it yet, skimming it didn’t excite me). See Bombay, Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam or Dil Se if you’re a romantic, Rang De Basanti, Yuva or Krantiveer for something more substantive, Raincoat for a character study.
It’s about subculture formation, not ghettos. SM is a primo, número uno example of this subculture formation. There is a uniquely second-gen angle on Bollywood — snarky mockery of the bad ones (Turbanhead), smart analysis of the good ones. We need not just smarter movies but also smart, American-focused Bollywood commentary. Non-desi reviewers in the NYT, New Yorker and Village Voice miss too much cultural context. In mainstream Indian media, here’s the most thoughtful review of Rang De Basanti I saw, and I disagree with almost everything it says. It calls the nationalism subtle (by American standards it’s in-your-face), thinks the Punjabi is authentic (it’s totally fake, it’s 90% Hindi), and gives away the ending right up front.
Not only will Bollywood rise here, there will also be a Memoirs of a Geisha equivalent. Leaving aside that movie’s stereotyping, I’m talking about a movie with nearly all Indian actors, filmed in English and aimed at the mainstream U.S. market. And, of course, second-gen cinema can only improve.
Bollywood is changing because Indian society is changing. But if someone locks in ‘anti-Bollywood’ just like our parents locked in ‘anti-Western family culture’ 30 years ago, they risk becoming as anachronistic as the mad scientist in Back to the Future 3:
Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says “Made in Japan.”
Marty: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.
Doc: Unbelievable!
manish on February 12, 2006 07:41 PM in Film · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I work with a Indian youth programme and also have loads of nieces and nephews. All of them hate to go visit India and are not big fans of Indian food either. The only common thread? they all love Bollywood movies . . not all of them but the ones which are made well. they dont worry about what is the story, or how it ends. They just love the music, all the songs and dances and the loads of colorful sets that are the hallmark of an expensively made Bollywood movie. One reason of this maybe that they get an overdose of Hindi movies at home and are forced to see the movies and slowly develop an appreciation of it or maybe they are just trying to make lemonade out of lemons.
In general,
Bollywood has been on rise. In 2-3 years, I have had non-Desi American talking about Bolllywood (not Satyajit Ray films only) and before that it was non-existent. There was an Italian student (I think under 26) here, she shared her netflix list with me. I would recommend Bollywood flicks to her. Her list was ~40-50% Bollywood phillums.
Netflix has a lot of Bollywood offerings these days.
However, it does not compare to Chinese movie industry and their influence.
Memoirs of Geisha equivalent - Crouching Tiger... - maybe in 5-10 years.
Rafi, I'm glad to see that they enjoy the tamasha of the films. However, do they enjoy the plot, the characters, or the acting? If not, Asoka has a point.
Not really-- the fundamental question we were discussing is whether they watch.
Manish, yaar, do you really think that films can keep their audience without a plot, acting or characters? Do you think that 3rd or 4th gen desis will watch just for the costumes and the dancing when they have little connection with their homeland? Bollywood films are popular all over the third world. But for brown skinned first worlders, it's an exercise in nostalgia. This generation might watch it b/c the films are available, but I really wonder if their children will.
Man, that's unwarranted snark. You're way too dismissive of gems I suspect you've never even seen.
If you think SM will be around, the movies will too. There's a hump at the beginning when everyone's 1st gen, a dip when the 2nd gen numbers are too small and dilute for subculture formation, a sharp rise when the subculture coalesces and then a long slow decline due to assimilation combined with a small pop due to inbound interest from the mainstream.
It's not about whether non-desis watch or not. We know that more non-desis will watch for the same reason we know that non-desis will buy books with a mango on the front cover. We also know that Bollywood is popular in Russia for example, and may one day be as popular here. The question is whether Bollywood will remain popular with second, thrid, and fourth, etc. generation desi-Americans. My argument would be no. I don't even think it is that popular in the 2nd generation. Bollywood films, in my opinion, often run like Gap/Old Navy ads. All the "kids" in the high school are wearing the latest "trendy clothes." Often, other races are ridiculed including black=bad guy, blond=slut, and asian=funny tourist. On top of that Indians abroad are treated as if they are immoral sell-out scum and don't know anything about their roots, which is not only incorrect, but often gets the situation backward. Why on Earth would any of these "values" be of interest to assimilated kids in the U.S.? We know by recent discussions that South Asian Americans are for the most part more assimilated than our counterparts in Europe, the Middle East, and South-East Asia. I don't want my evetual offspring growing up to think that Bollywood films represent what India is like. I would want my eventual offspring to watch REAL Indian films, in Hindi, Tamil, Gujarati, etc. These are very worthwhile and have nothing at all to do with Bollywood, which better serves its purpose as being an opiate for the masses.
SM has to survive on its quality (hopefully) whereas the movies can survive on nostalgia for a decade or so. After that, they have to win viewers based on things like plot, characters and acting - the very factors that Goodmash pointed out were not mentioned by Rafi.
No way. These have nothing to do with each other. We blog mostly about American topics on SM. As long as there are desis in America (and we don't have something better to do) SM will be around :)
Numbers? My anecdotal gut feel says the opposite, though primary female.
Partly due to education, partly due to lack of subculture. The kids will not all be white collar, and you are helping the subculture form.
The language is orthogonal, Tamil Nadu has commercial vs. art cinema also. Commercial Hindi cinema centered in Bombay is no longer only candyfloss, it's diversifying in a big way.
I have had non-Desi American talking about Bolllywood (not Satyajit Ray films only) and before that it was non-existent.
I havnt really noticed that.
My last Bollywood movie was a few years back when I had the misfortune of watching this monstrosity of a movie on a very long KLM Amsterdam-Delhi flight. This movie is supposedly a megahit and had more cliches, cheesiness and juvenile stereotypes packed in 3 1/2 hours than you can imagine.
Most of the desi people that I know who were born here (Australia) seem to enjoy bollywood movies. I certainly am a minority in my hatred and loathing. Those damn songs and dances are absolutely intolerable.
PS: What do you guys mean by '2nd generation' - do you mean the children of immigrants or the children of the children who were born in the US/UK/Aus etc? It is highly confusing terminology.
"my eventual offspring to watch REAL Indian films, in Hindi, Tamil, Gujarati, etc"
Abhi,
Do you mean art-house/ indy movies from all over India? Satyajit Ray, Shyam Benegal, etc.
As here, Bollywood eventually pulls toward them for big bucks. Be it Smita Patil, Shahbana Azmi, Om Puri, etc
In general, mainstream regional movies as (if not more) corny as Bollywood.
I just read in India Today that Bhojpuri (a dialect of Hindi) movie industry is taking off.
Unbelievable
I generally agree with much of what Manish says. I do feel Indian cinema will rise, but I also believe that what we think of as Bollywood today will not be the cause of this surge in popularity. The definition is ever-so-slowly changing, plots are becoming more adventurous and production is Westernising. The average quality of movies seems to be improving (from my perspective) from utter shit to thoroughly disappointing. My girlfriend identifies far more watchable movies for me these days compared to a few years ago.
About second-gen flix, whether Canuck, Yank or Brit, I have no confidence. A little while ago I was full of determination to make a hot British Asian film, now I couldn't care less. I'd rather make a film with Asian characters which isn't defined as a British Asian film, just British.
For people go watch Bollywood movies in theaters, is the audience all brown or mixed?
This should give some indication as to the popularity of Bollywood outside the Desi community.
Yes, it's a moving target. We will still be referring to Hindi language mainstream cinema primarily from Bombay, it will just have Westernized and diversified.
You might have better luck tomorrow.
I mean films like Everybody Says I'm Fine, MaqBool, Mr. and Mrs. Iyer, The Journey (Sancharram), The Warrior, etc. These weren't the best films ever, but at least I felt they were worth my time and money. These are the types of Indian films I really enjoy seeing.
Whoa, totally forgot to express my visceral shock that Manish, desi culture-vulture extraordinaire has not seen Lagaan. I am shocked and stunned. But then again, you guys don't get cricket so perhaps you won't like it as much as I did (and I really did).
I would like to say one thing, kind of in response to Bengali (good name!) I generally hate Bollywood too. But I don't find myself having much in common with other Bolly-haters. I LIKE songs. I LIKE dances. Indian cinema is different to Western cinema, I don't want clones of Western movies, but I do want a fucking plot, live sound, a script and decent editing. I don't accept "songs" as a criticism, that's just a taste.
You see, Abhi-- it's highly gender-specific in the second gen.
If I am not mistaken, Bong Breaker's girl is first gen.
Abhi,
I really liked Mr. and Mrs. Iyer. If you like Aparna Sen, please watch 36 Chowringhee Lane. It is a masterpiece. It is trilingual (English, Hindi, and Bengali - I might wrong a little bit). You will not regret it.
I heard "The Warrior" was pretty bad. Give me more info, I'll put on my netflix list.
Be that as it may, it's often transmitted to second-gen men by women.
It was pretty bad. But MUCH better than KKKG.
Abhi, I heard The Warrior was soporific, so help me place this in context by telling me your taste in Western movies.
As stated, the Warrior was very bad but much better that Devdas and KKKG. I self-identify as a movie snob. I usually don't watch even a western flick unless Rotten Tomatoes.com has given it a rating above 80%. Check my Friendster page for movies I like :)
Can someone recommend some good, new Bollywood movie sans prolonged song/dance routine.
My wife keeps bugging me to rent some Hindi movies.
Abhi,
May I present you a partial recommended list of great Bollywood movies. Do try if you can.
1) Pyaasa
2) Kagaaz Ka Phool
3) Dewar (original Amitabh B)
4) Devdas (Bimal Roy-Dilip Kumar version)
5) 36 Chowringhee Lane
6) Sholay
7) Do Aankh Bara Haath
8) One of the earlier Raj Kapoor-Nargis movies
9) Bobby
10) To be announced
In recent releases, Parineeta is quite good. I think it has a solid story. Even Paheli. Both are far more superior than KKKG
When in doubt, rent a Satyajit Ray movie.
This is like the people who eat only the middles vs. only the crusts. I know people who fast-forward to the songs and watch the rest if they have time.
Hmm, gender skew.
ALM,
You could use the list I gave to Abhi.
Start with Parineeta and Paheli - rather than Sholay for your wife.
On the positive side, the good thing about bollywood movies is one can find great desi-wear fashion ideas.
I watched Lagaan and liked it even though in the first 5 minutes of the film you could figure out what the ending would be. I also recently watched Pareenita (because it is an adaptation of a Sharatchandra Chatterjee novel which I cannot read as I am illiterate) and also Chokher Bali - I really liked both of them too. So maybe deep down I am a Bollywood-lover.. :\
But a true snob doesn't trust mainstream critics, he decides for himself. Critics tend to be drawn to slow pix without a pulse that are blatantly angling for Oscars.
Start with Parineeta and Paheli - rather than Sholay for your wife.
Would the movie have subtitles? She (non-desi) doesnt know any Hindi.
DVD versions almost always have subtitles.
I recently saw Parineeta (under less than ideal circumstances, but still) ... and had trouble understanding why people said it was a sophisticated fillum.
Melodramatic, around as subtle as Mills & Boone. Every point was slammed home with a sledgehammer, and repeated endlessly. I felt like I was watching an early black and white silent movie, complete with a mustachio'ed villain and a damsel tied to the train tracks.
It was a big budget crowd pleaser, like Kevin Costner's Robin Hood. It was fun in parts but ... I really hope that isn't the best that Bollywood has to offer the world. And the younger male lead (Saif Ali Khan?) was incredibly wooden.
Sorry if this sounds harsh. I'm not trying to criticize your taste in movies, I'm just saying that no matter how much somebody enjoyed it, I have trouble understanding why somebody might say it was a great movie.
Would you explain why you put it at the top of the Bollywood list?
"Would the movie have subtitles? She (non-desi) doesnt know any Hindi."
Yes, I think if one rents through netflix. Even Blockbuster.
I saw Parineeta through netflix. But I did not pay attention on subtitles option.
I saw Devdas (it was from netflix) with French friends - We had the subtitles on.
"Would you explain why you put it at the top of the Bollywood list?"
My top ten list does not have Parineeta. It has Pyaasa on top. My list is comment #.27
However, Pyaasa is not for neo-Bollywood lovers, first timers. It is a heavy duty film.
Parineeta is a new movie, decent story and acting. A real plot. A good start.
wasn't really going to comment on this thread....however...
In recent releases, Parineeta is quite good. I think it has a solid story. Even Paheli. Both are far more superior than KKKG.
i refuse to believe Paheli is superior to anything. One of the dumbest Hindi movies I've seen (and everyone I've talked to, who has seen it, agrees). and yes i know it was india's nominee for the oscars.
ps: obviously just my personal opinion. no offense to KT or his choice of movies.
You got to start somewhere. With up to 10 films out every weekend I have to count on a few of my trusted critics to do some weeding for me. Then I decide which ones to watch based on my own interests. Sometimes I don't like the films that ALL the critics love. 2046 for example was just so-so despite getting great reviews.
You realize that you're damning Bollywood with faint praise. If a better than average Bollywood film is at that level, then what does that say about the rest?
IMHO, Bollywood too is part of what India represents. It may not be a reality that resonates with Indians overseas, and you have every right to think its cheesy or corny or any number of adjectives used regularly here. But my truth has always been that it is a big part of life in India...for the masses as you say- it influences fashion, it inspires and entertains the overworked and the underpaid, it incorporates in its music (more often than not) some form or another of Indian musical instruments...And while I totally agree that it is the plot and the characters that should drive a movie, Bollywood movies are so much more than that, that I feel like its not even fair to compare them to less commercial, more artsy cinema. Its like comparing the musicals of the 50s and 60s with Schindler's List or even with regular Hollywood blockbusters. They are just different genres. But that doesn't make either one of them less REAL of less valuable or better than the other. They are just different.
Of course its completely a matter of taste.
One last thing, I don't know if you have ever actually seen a Gujrathi film. If you haven't maybe you can rent one :) I would like to hear your opinion then
Precisely. And Capote was extremely slow. So you do have to calibrate the critics even as you harness them to do some of the filtering for you.
I think that for most fans the movie is nothing more than a vehicle for the songs and the dance routines. That makes me wonder - why produce the movies at all? Why not sell just the music videos?
Purely anecdotal, but I disagree Manish, I don't think enjoying Bollywood films is gender specific. Many of my very close male friends from college enjoy Bollywood films, and the newer movies coming out of Bombay, that are not traditionally viewed as "Bollywood." Sarkar, Page 3, Company come immediately to mind, and I would recommend all three (Company being my favorite especially b/c I found Page 3 a bit gratuitous). I think Amir Khan, and some of the newer actors, especially those who are attempting to cross over from art-house to mainstream, are all adding an interesting element in newer films. Lagaan was brilliant, whether or not you understand cricket, and films like Dil Chahta Hai and Mr. and Mrs. Iyer are adding a whole new element to Indian cinema. Not to mention classic Bollywood, like Mother India and the many Guru Dutt films mentioned above by Kush.
Furthermore, I think as long as Bollywood is being made in India, those in the diaspora wanting an easy way to connect to where their family came from will always find solace in Bollywood.
And Abhi:
The Warrior was critically acclaimed in the UK--"The Warrior" was chosen by the British Academy of Film and Television to represent the UK in the "Best Foreign Language Film" category at the 2003 Oscars, exept the Academy wouldn't accept it because Hindi isn't indigenous to the UK.
If you want to get a predictor of viewership trends in the future, go to any community festival. You'll see dozens of teens, even some boys, performing dances to songs from Bollywood movies. Are they going to turn 21 and suddenly start hating Bollywood? So many kids are growing up with desi satellite stations playing nonstop in their homes. For me, watching Bolly films is a guilty pleasure like watching "She's All That" 5X-- I don't think those kids even feel guilty.
crappy hollywood romantic comedies, bollywood romance films, manga all serve a population. As long as the Bollywood film industry considers its audience, there will always be one.
Sajit,
How is Sarkar? I am supposed a get it from netflix soon.
Isn't it the "The Godfather" of Mumbai. Give me star rating out of five (***** = excellent, * = why?)
If a better than average Bollywood film is at that level, then what does that say about the rest?
it says that not a lot of good movies get made in bollywood. also, that is one individual's view of what constitutes good cinema. if you have the inclination, you will weed out the crappy movies and find the good ones. this is not limited to bollywood. the current top 10 at the US box office is
1. The Pink Panther
2. Final Destination 3
3. Curious George
4. Firewall
5. When a Stranger Calls
6. Big Momma's House 2
7. Nanny McPhee
8. Brokeback Mountain
9. Hoodwinked
10. Underworld: Evolution
on that list you will find movies that are ridiculously boring, movies with no storyline and movies that are just stupid. you will also find an average movie and an above average movie. if you want to go to the movies, you will do some reasearch, be it talking to a friend, reading a review or watching a trailer. the same thing applies to indian movies. a lot of them suck. you just have to find the good ones.
also, often times when you ask people for recommendations they will try to point you towards the more critically acclaimed, off beat movies. they will not necessarily point you to main stream movies they might have enjoyed. (i personally enjoyed satya and yuva. you will not find them on anyone's list of of movies to recommend. i probably wouldn't recommend them myself.)
what i'm trying to say is, there are a lot of bad indian movies out there (no storyline, same old hackneyed plot etc), but if you're interested enough and take the trouble, you'll find good movies too. you just have to look for them (like you do in hollywood).
you like it, you dont like it... without a partner... good luck getting any bolly and passing it on ... what do we have so far ... a sausage party... if that's not a death knell I dont know what is...
The traditional Bolly category, musical romance, skews female. Action is the opposite but romance used to dominate. Now they're branching out.
I'm arguing a transmission vector (female->male in the 2nd gen) re: who gets it first.
I need to tell you guys.
When I came to US as a graduate student. A typical Indian function would be classical music, invitation to Zaki Hussian, etc on the campus. Almost no Bollywood.
Now, on campus, I go to Indian functions, Bollywood is showcased very often. Often students performing are 1.5/2.0 genners in addtion to FOBs.
Manish, proof positive. Bollywood is not dying.
I don't think this is a predictor at all. Every year in college I danced in multiple Bollywood-film inspired dance performances. I had a great time doing so and still don't watch Bollywood films. Neither did most of the dancers.
I would give it a 3.5 out of 5. The production was quite good, but the story line was nowhere near as riveting as the Godfather, or even The G0dfather part III. I also don't think Abhishek Bacchhan is all that good or convincing as an actor. Of all the recent action/mobster flicks recently, Company has been my favorite of them so far, and D has been my least.
Thanks, Sajit. I'll check it out.
i have never watched 'bollywood' (though my parents would). my sister does watch it (she's 13 years younger). she knows hindi now, so that helps. i think of bollywoood movies are pure fantasy, i know that in movies people are better looking, but the few movies i've been in the room for (though generally doing something else) seem bereft of india as opposed to a sterilized hill station or whatever. and if i want fantasy, i want better production values.
List of recent Hindi movies I might pay $3.49 to rent out,
1. Raincoat
2. Company
3. Parineeta
4. Page 3
5. Dil Chahta Hai
6. Salaam Namaste (yes hackneyed plot. set pieces. blah blah...but Preity Zinta and Saif A. Khan look and sound normal. Which is more than I can say for the rest of their brethren.
Ok, so DCH is not so new. I can see it again and again. I liked the soundtrack and the tongue-in-cheek humour.
But a true snob doesn't trust mainstream critics, he decides for himself
that's definately me. for both movies and music.
anyhoo...short and sweet, i'd rather see bollywood movies than most american films. maybe it's because i'm used to the plots of them, and they just bore the 'll out of me, but i like the dance numbers, and such. gimme bollywood anyday. then again - i like a lot of foreign cinema. ;)
for_debauchery_in_ cartoons:
Some other movies you/your wife might enjoy watching:
Khamoshi (not so new)
Saathiya
Aankhen (new one with Amitabh/Sushmita)
Ek Ajnabee
Phir Teri Kahaani Yaad Ayi (my most favoriteeeee indian movie ever with absolutley the best songs...but might be a bit hard to find)
Darmiyaan
Lekin (horror)
Pinjar
None of these can be labeled as offbeat cinema, except maybe Darmiyaan. They are all good movies and examples of how mainstream Bollywood can be wonderful. I recommend them to the haters too heh.
With so many crappy movies (that have non-existant or banal storylines) being churned out its hard to zero in on the good movies. Also some of the subtitles I have seen leave a lot desired especially with the shoddy translation and poor grammar.
Besides some of the movies that others have suggested(Page 3,DCH,etc), heres are some I think were ok (maybe marginally so):
-Satya(I think it was the gangster movie that started it all), [and if you want more gangsta action there's the clone/follow-up/whatever Vaastav which was yet another gangster flick]
-Viraasat (a decent movie, at least it has the semblance of a plot, although I was told it was a remake of a Tamil movie)
-Kala Pani(a period flick which has the distinction of being multi-lingual: Hindi, English, Malayalam, Tamil, Bengali, and German says Wikipedia)
I think Bollywood will rise in the US. Reasons,
- With more money, the films are becoming better from technical perspective.
- As India gains more prominence in the world, the confidence will reflect.
- By confidence I mean, movie makers will start getting real "writers" to write their movies. Movies will be more assertive.
- A more assertive movie script does not need to paint all NRI's as bad and all people from village as "good". This has already begun, in movies such as "Rang De Basanti" where the european actor is not given a sterotypical role.
- Example of a great period movie: "Pinjar" : Based on celebrated Author Amrita Pritam's novel.
- Most important reason .. may be .. the human urge of ethnic desis to see people like them in movies... as opposed to movies starring Barbie and Ken. That actually is the reason why Bollywood movies are huge in Central Asia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Palestine (even Israel) ... those are the once I know of.
- So I would be a "buyer" of bollywood here. (I cant refrain from stock market terms :-) ) Although I dont think Bollywood is going to "break-out" anytime soon. In 5-10 years it will be ready for break out.
- Lastly, the most important thing that is positive with Bollywood is that, organised corporations are getting into the business. Such as ICICI Bank's Venture fund arm Bullish on entertainment
Before Bollywood does become popular amongst goras I do hope they get references to Western culture correct... One embarrassingly cringe worthy moment was in Chokher Bali when Aish sang "Old Land's eye" to the tune of Auld Lang Syne :\
I completely agree with most of the criticisms of Bollywood movies that have been brought up in this thread: the predictable storylines, the casual racism and homophobia, the glorification of wealth and excess, the fact that any time a character makes an important realization, it has to be accompanied by a thunderclap and a series of flashbacks indicating how the important realization was made, etc. Sometimes these sorts of problems/conventions are enough to ruin a movie for me, but other times Im willing to overlook them if the story, the characters, or even the sheer visual spectacle of the film is enough to captivate me. Here are some of the things that I like about mainstream Bollywood movies:
1. I can usually watch them with my parents or younger cousins. A movie like Lagaan is not without its flaws, but it reminds me of a certain type of movie (think The Sound of Music), that Hollywood no longer seems very interested in making a film that has something for children in it, but also portrays adults that behave like adults and deal with adult problems. Hollywood and Bollywood both seem to be targeting their movies to narrower and narrower demographics, which can often be a good thing, but I still think theres something to be said for old-fashioned mass appeal. Most movies dont quite pull it off, but I like the fact that Bollywood is still trying (at least for now.) On the other hand, I also like the fact that there are smaller, edgier movies being made these days for specific niches; hopefully one genre doesnt have to come at the expense of the other.
2. The idea of self-sacrifice. This is a concept that doesnt seem to come up much in mainstream Hollywood movies, where its usually a given that the correct choice for the main character is to follow his/her dream and go after what he/she wants. In my opinion, Bollwood movies sometimes create a more interesting tension between the choice to go after what you want, and the choice to give up your dreams in order to fulfill some other responsibility.
3. Emotional openness. Its not usually credible, but I think that characters in Bollywood movies often have a certain exuberance and romanticism that can be kind of refreshing.
4. The go-for-broke, over-the-topness. Main Hoon Na had way too many tedious slo-mo action sequences, but I thought it did a nice job of being completely over-the-top, while also making fun of itself for being completely over-the-top. I like movies that have that sort of sensibility.
5. The outfits.
I dont have any kind of data to back this up, but I get the feeling that younger desis might be more into Bollywood than people my age (26) and up. I didnt start watching Bollywood movies until college, when my high-school-aged cousin started bringing them for us to watch. Shes 21 now and she and her friends all seem to be into them; theyve grown up reading online forums and downloading Bollywood music and movies, stuff that I couldnt do back in the Dark Ages. For people like my parents that live in the boondocks, its definitely easier to get access to Bollywood movies now than when I was a kid.
What did people think of Bunty aur Babli? Some of the humor was a little hackneyed, and none of the scams made that much sense to me, but I really enjoyed it.
Bollywood has a much bigger audience than Hollywood. The audience however is very different and with high variance. A movie is made for "all" audiences - regardless of economic/religious/national borders, unlike targeted western ones.
For most part movies are sub-standard in script (I heard directors dont have any), direction and content. It industry does have some very good actors (not many good actresses), only if they were utilized to the fullest. This, however, doesnt apply to some comedy movies - which may not be suitable for non-Hindi speaking audiences. Something like Munnabhai MBBS, AAA, Angoor are the best ever Hindi movies.
I think we will see more seggration and directed content - Indian upper class/diaspora and local.
But as Abhi has already said, "they dont relfect what India is".
Homeboy Asoka sounds mad psuedo-intellectual, and also very ignorant to the fact that Indian dudes love gawking at hot, scantily clad brown biddies.
Escapist romantic movies work for the general masses, whether it is Hollywood or Anywood. It may be a Meg Ryan movie or a Yash Chopra movie... they have different cultural contexts but both are melodramatic and unreal. Same is the case with a lot of mainstream cinema in any language or country. There are rotten and middling movies as well as the occasional heart-tuggers in every cinema... albeit with their own cultural idiosyncrasies.
IMHO (being a first genner) desi film makers in the 90s realized that diaspora brings in big bucks ... and so began the pattern of romantic, 'family' films with pyar, parampara and the whole kitschy nine yards. Unfortunately, the 2nd gen is exposed to bollywood through their parents who love to see Indian 'culture' through bolly-eyes as they pine for a land and values that don't really exist among the urban Indian desiland anymore. The 2nd gen dutifully goes to the first few bollywood productions, does not identify with anything and vows never to go back... unless it is the ISA dance recital where he/she dances to the latest bollywood jhatka without even knowing Hindi...
Indian cinema has lots of good entertainers without being overtly loud... and then there is a new wave of parallel cinema which come up with half a decent movie from time to time. You just have to search for them. After all what is the ratio of an Eternal Sunshine to a Maid in Manhattan in Hollywood too? Oh and try some artsy Marathi movies.
One word: escapism.
The parallels between Bollywood crap and Hollywood crap are fairly obvious. No one ever went broke making movies that catered to the lowest common denominator. I don't know of anyone who goes to see a movie because it has "good self-sacrifice," ads. But if you want to escape the drudgery of the gaon for a few hours, then watching conservatively-dressed-yet-practically-nude women (or men) dance for a while might help, especially if there's no strip club (or good-looking man) nearby.
True story: my friend needed to get the lock to his apartment in Arlington changed. We go down to the front desk where a middle-aged Mexican lady is sitting, ignoring us and watching TV. My buddy tries in vain to get her full attention for a while. Then he peers over the desk to see what she's watching. Aha! "Kuch Kuch Hota Hain." He starts talking to her about Sharukh Khan, and she immediately brightens up and becomes helpful. His lock got changed the same day. She told us she was a huge Bollywood fan, and so were most of her friends and family.
Go figure.
Er, I'm not sure what the moral is here.
Lol you just had a good story to tell
I think various people watch movies for various reasons. Primarily being entertainment. One of my complains with Bollywood is the length of the movies. I am a movie buff and watch a lot of movies, which as Manish said, sometimes burns you. But I think that goes equally with Hollywood movies. I watched 'Pink Panther' today. Although nice but didnt quite like it. Was like I could have done without it.
So now coming to question. I believe bollywood might be able to hold in US but I don't really see it growing unless they can reflect:
1) As Abhi said, the REAL India (Oh btw, do we know what is the real India?)
2) We can connect to them as a generation not lived in India and not following/knowing about all the stuff shown.
Most people have already mentioned some films I would recommend (Dil Chahta Hai, Sarkar, Viraasat etc), but here's another movie which is both old and new:
The colourised version of Mughal-e-Azam.
The original black & white version was already one of my favourite Indian films of all time, but the "new" version is also excellent. Sometimes the colourisation looks artificial, in other scenes it looks absolutely superb. Outstanding film all-round: story, picturisation, acting, costumes, colour, songs, dialogue, etc etc.
Some of the worst examples I've seen recently have been in Khushi and Out of Control. In Khushi, there is a segment in one of the songs where both Kareena Kapoor and Fardeen Khan are "blacked up" -- complete with afro wigs -- and are doing cliched "yo, yo" moves in front of some real-life black extras. Out of Control also had a segment where the lead actor, who drives a cab, had to quickly "black up" so that his passengers -- his father and "other" wife (long story) -- don't realise who he is. Not only did he go overboard in the fake-black-slang dialogue, but -- even worse -- when his passengers noticed that he'd forgotten to darken his hands too, they thought he had some kind of "disgusting disease" (yes, it's called vitiligo, fools) and threw the cab fare at him at the end as though he had leprosy.
In both these cases I blame the producers, directors and scriptwriters rather than the actors themselves, but they're still pertinent examples of the unthinking racism within many Bollywood films. Either the film-makers don't have a clue about how offensive this is towards the "targets", or they just don't care as long as the audience agrees with whatever stereotypical/racism image they're trying to promote.
PS: Another relatively new film I've seen twice recently is Phir Milenge. It stars Shilpa Shetty, Abhishek Bachchan, and Salman Khan. Shilpa & Salman are in unusually restrained, mature mode and the whole movie deals with HIV/AIDS. It appears to be based on Philadelphia (the Tom Hanks/Denzel Washington film) to some extent, but it is quite realistic in both the acting and the sensitive way it handles the issue. The "realistic" style reminded me partially of Dil Chahta Hai, albeit without the comedy angle this time of course (apart from Abhishek who provides some laughs).
Just in reference to a few waay back up top; Manish, my gf is 1st gen and I'm halfway between. However I agree with you that there is a gender skew, but in the case of my girlfriend and some others I know it's not towards romance per se, just that she likes Indian movies in general more than me. She points me in the direction of as many indie/arthouse/serious/whatver they're called these days films as pukka Bollywood fare.
I didn't think the Warrior was 'very bad', but it was a bit boring. Had some beautiful imagery, but too slow. You could say the same about 2001 to be fair.
I do feel a lot of people here are talking about Bollywood and Indian cinema as if they were one amorphous blob. As I said above, the average Bollywood film is still shit, but it's very different to just a few years ago. Don't judge too hastily, re-investigate some, but choose carefully and ask someone whose opinion you trust. Indian cinema outside Bollywood is also on the up, as well multiplex films (i.e. Bollywood, but for a new, younger, cosmopolitan market). As said very succinctly above - most of these films are not GREAT but there are plenty of films that are worth a few squids to see.
A truly amazing Indian film comes along rarely and I can name a handful in the last ten years. I still hate Bollywood, but I don't hate Indian films.
Just before I rush off - Jai I completely disagree. I thought Phir Milenge was utter cack. A noble aim is not enough to make a film, otherwise Amnesty International would rule the box office. Films need to be complete packages. It was a cheap knock-off of a great movie, but it took out the very thing that made Philadelphia a landmark.
Bong Breaker,
Without revealing too many plot-spoilers to those who haven't seen Phir Milenge yet, which aspect are you referring to here ?
The main character being gay, or the ending of the story ?
I'm referring to Tom Hanks being a heterosexual Shilpa Shetty. I have a deep seated, violent hatred of films that rip others off - especially when they copy whole scenes. OK this isn't Zinda, but quite a bit was lifted, including large chunks scene-for-scene.
Hanks had AIDS, Shetty only had HIV - so the visual impact was negated. India needs films like this - to try to get people thinking about AIDS and I applaud its sentiments, but I wouldn't advise a Westerner to watch it, whether brown or white.
However, had they made the main character gay, I suspect cinemas would've been burnt down etc etc. India's not really ready for a straight Philadelphia copy, no pun intended. As for the ending Jai, well that was predictable enough for a Bollywood version, but whilst demonstrating those with HIV face a tough situation in India, I'm not sure it sent the right message about HIV progressing to AIDS. And did they even mention condoms in the film?
BB
Totally beg to differ on this. If you refer to the gay aspect as the landmark issue, well, that's ok in the Western context. For India, a movie discussing AIDS and a single woman in a serious manner is the landmark.
And in any case, you also have 'My Brother Nikhil', as a discussion of Gay issues and AIDS.
Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion so far. I can't add much, coz I am a 1-gen. However, I used to rarely watch Bollywood in India. Rediscovered it after coming to the US and watching DCH in a bout of homesickness. I will reiterate my opinions though: I don't think we should expect Bollywood to adhere completely to Western cinematic conventions and culture. It's quite fine if it remains a genre mainly focused on its Indian and other markets. I am sure that given the current trend, there will always be a few good movies that are also palatable to Americans, but that should not be the goal.
Also, it might be worthwhile to get Americans (a whole lot I know, at least) to get over the strange notion of "musical = cheesy and unwatchable"?
I also have always been annoyed with the casually racist attitude towards blacks and (East) Asians. Some of it is true racism, and some (like the blackface) emerges from ignorance about what might be offensive. In India, it is quite ok to make harmless fun of people based on stereotypes like accents etc, but we sometimes need to realize that people outside India may not take it that way. Hopefully the Asian racism will disappear as more and more people from NorthEastern India get into the mainstream movies (Udita Goswami, for instance, who's half Arunachal Pradeshi). With blacks, it is definitely more difficult as it is tied in with the whole Indian fair-skin complex :-(
Dude, you obviously have not seen 'My Brother Nikhil'.
It wasn't a huge hit or anything, but nobody was burning down anything.
I must accuse you of being somewhat stereotypical here.
Also, I think for a society in transformation, change has to come gradually, step-by-step. If they just remade 'Philadelphia' with all its 'landmarks' I think the AIDS/HIV message would have been lost.
Again, this is what I mean when I say that an Indian movie needs to be evaluated with a different measure than Hollywood, with some local sociocultural context, rather than sitting on a Western high horse.
IMO, why many 2-gen'ers hate (maybe too strong a word) Bollywood is because their parents watch too much of that stuff. Desi parents stick to watching safe, mainstream Hollywood movies with their children (Star Wars, Spiderman etc) while they are young. While the kids get older, the parents stop "growing" with their children, with the result that their kids have moved to more mature Holywood stuff (like Sliding Doors, Piano etc) while the parents regress by installing a dish and watch non-stop mindless Bollywood movies and Saas-Bahu serials. This divergence draws the kids to the parents TV set just out of curiosity, and they recoil in horror at the mindless muck their parents enjoy. This not only causes a hatred of Hollywood, but at a subliminal level a degrading view of their parents' tastes.
Will Bollywood ever catch on with 2nd genners or 3rd genners? Art is a reflection of society, and Bollywood is not very successful in portraying reality. If the standards of living in India rise dramatically in the coming decades(a strong possibility in metros) and Bollywood makes movies that reflect the metro culture, then those movies will become successful in 2/3 gen'ers.
M. Nam
Hmmmm .... Hollywood produced Philadelphia, a good movie. One of Bollywood's higher quality movies is Phir Milenge, a watered down copy of Philadelphia. Again, what does it say about an industry if its better films are rip offs of better Hollywood movies? It says that despite the crap in Hollywood, Hollywood is still producing more than enough good movies ....
Ah - would you watch it for reasons other than nostalgia?
I don't think Americans feel that way at all. Moulin Rouge was quite popular with film buffs, for example. The problem with Bollywood is that the musical aspect swamps everything else. The movie has little plot to justify the music videos, at the same time most of the male stars can neither sing nor dance well ....
Since no one has done a quantitative study of first and second gen Bollywood movie watching patterns, this debate is largely speculation and anecdotal evidence.
So let me add some more: At the desi multiplex in north New Jersey, you see tons of second gen people, but then, it's north Jersey (and someone will surely say the word "ghetto" now, forgetting that half of the audience shows up in BMWs). In more suburban places (like the Doylestown multiplex north of Philly, where just one theater out of 14 is "Indian Movie"), you get not only 2nd gen desis but also a fair number of curious Americans in the audience. But my experiences at Naz 8 in Fremont, CA were largely 1st gen desis.
At the Regal theater North Brunswick, NJ, the audience for bollywood skews really young -- ages 12-15 -- and the vast majority I observed on a couple of trips to see movies there seemed like second gens (though there's no way to be sure with the kids today). Quite a number of younger second gens in Jersey speak Hindi and like Bollywood movies.
Which reminds me: why do we lean so hard on the cultural divide between 1st gen and 2nd gen desis?
B L U to the double F MASTER
step to me, it'll be a disASTER
when I'm in Italy I got piASTERs
you can call me a Parsi, coz I worship ZoroASTER
(lyrics slightly modified; to be performed with an aggressive "I must defend Bollywood!" b-boy posture, equal parts Beastie Boys and Abhishek Bachchan)
>>This not only causes a hatred of Hollywood...
should have read
This not only causes a hatred of Bollywood
M. nam
I think your opinion of Indian movies depends entirely on your length and depth of exposure to it. We've touched on a lot of the key issues here. I'll just add that if you watch these movies long enough you learn to appreciate the good aspects, and still get irritated by the bad ones. Good aspects -- romanticism, sheer entertainment value, comedy, settings and scenarios, etc etc. The bad stuff -- already covered.
But on the issue of your length of exposure -- if you've been watching Indian movies since childhood, like I have, you take more than just a snarky view of the costumes and bad hair and outlandish escapism. Yes, all that is there. But behind all that you can really see some important issues projected on the screen through a populist medium. Take "Deewar" with Amitabh Bachhcan and Shashi Kapoor -- this movie works on so many different levels that it is truly genius. "Dil Chahta Hai" -- an breakthrough film if ever there was one; too bad Farhan Akhtar hans't been able to live up to the success of this film. "Masoom" -- the first Indian film to seriously address issues of marital infidelity. There are so many other examples.
If anything, Indian movies give me a glimpse into the Indian psyche at a given point in time. It might not be a very pretty or enlightening sight, but at times, it can be very revealing.
And we haven't done justice to the parallel cinema of the 1950s-1970s (Govind Nihalani, Shyam Benegal, Satyajit Ray, Girish Karnad, etc.), the neo-commercial-parallel movies from the 1990s until today (Mr. and Mrs. Iyer, Page 3 etc.), nor the middle-class oriented light comedies of Hrishikesh Mukherjee, Basu Chatterji, Sai Paranjpe, etc. There's so much more you'll find in Indian movies if you take the time to look.
technophobicgeek, I totally forgot about My Brother Nikhil. I haven't seen it so I can't comment, but thanks for reminding me - perhaps I'll check it out.
However we're in complete agreement on the other things you say:
Absolutely. As I said above - Indian movies are different and long may that continue. Singin' in the Rain is one of my favourite oldies and that's essentially classic Bollywood.
Once again, I agree. I do not view myself as sitting on a Western high horse, I genuinely think that I have far more of an insight into Indian cinema than the average Western critic/viewer. Perhaps my critique of Phir Milenge was unfair and you may be right that had it been reproduced direct the message would've been lost, but I think that my hatred for copies may have clouded my judgement. Though I hardly think I was that far off with my accusations of films featuring gay characters being controversial in India.
MoorNam, SLIDING DOORS is your example of more mature Hollywood?! Haha!
Forget 2nd generation, many first generation people hate Indian movies also.
What I am real intereted in is - What kind of movies will future desis in USA make?Will they stay at the present standards of accent/FOB jokes or can they make a real movie?
Amardeep (and others!)
In the big multiplexes (Leicester Square theatres have screened Bollyflicks for a few years now) the clientele are overwhelmingly irritating rudeboys and rudegirls. Ugh, it's not at all pleasant going to the cinema with them around. I've also attended small single-screen desi cinemas where the atmosphere is decidely Indian, with people shouting at the screen, bringing in picnics, a proper interval and a stink of B.O.
I think we've overlooked one thing. Whether or not Bollywood depicts a 'true India' (whatever that is), it is often the most accessible exposure to India a second/third gen person can get. Fo this reason, I think Bollywood will continue to be popular with future NRIs/PIOs/DESIACRONYMs as long as people want to 'connect with their roots' without having to buy a plane ticket. Perhaps if I HAD been brought up watching Bollywood, I would speak better Hindi.
timepass - I think a lot of us haven't mentioned Ray et al (and I almost always do) because we're specifically talking about Bollywood, not the wider Indian cinema.
Amardeep, bboy STANCE not posture!
Birbal. I think I absolutely watch Bollywood for reasons other than nostalgia. What I meant was that I watched DCH during a bout of homesickness and was absolutely blown by the quality, given my expectations of Bollywood at that time. I probably watch maybe 6-7 Bollywood movies a year i.e only the best ones. I like my share of melodrama, but I can't take the K3G types of movies.
A couple more very recent movies which definitely turned out to be very good IMO: Kalyug, Apaharan. I saw them in India this Dec, so I've no idea if they were ever released in the US.
BB, I agree that a mainstream gay movie aka brokeback mountain would not work in India, but it would be difficult to judge coz of all the politics involved. As someone pointed out before, filmmakers have been on occasion known to court the saffron elements to generate publicity for a movie.
Hello:
Your view about Bollywood is interesting.
I discovered movies from Bollywood about 2 yrs ago in New York and bought a few of them.
I found them very interesting and memorable. I wish I can say the same thing about Hollywood movies which I have started to abhor because they are nutty, filled with violence, gore, rape, murder and all types of depravity.
I have had enough.
I don't even watch the network news anymore because the only thing they report are negative news about murder, rape, burglary, homicides, police brutality, accidents, deaths and others.
The only people they give publicity are criminals, psychos and wackos. When you watch the news once, it is enough. Unless you are depraved or a psycho and need the daily filth they call news like food.
What about all the good and great things that happen all over America?
What about all the good people that make America a great nation?
They are ignored. Nobody bothers about them. They are not news.
So, to me Bollywood is very entertaining, refreshing and appealing.
I have watched some of them more than four times and each time I do, I feel happy!
Compare that to Hollywood. You see it once, and that is it.
Who wants to be entertained with movies that have similar plots and filled with criminality, murder, gore, depravity, profanity and lunacy?
So, Bollywood movies is a welcome alternative.
The only issue is that Bollywood is not doing much advertising to attract viewers from US.
Ikey Benney
http://www.maychic.com/maysearch
Shiva,
"And Kush an intro top 10 list that doesn't include Raj Kapoor's early works?"
In Comment #. 27, Number 8 is "One of the earlier Raj Kapoor-Nargis movies"
While writing the comment, I could not decide which one to include - Awaara or Barsaat
Raj Kapoor role in Indian cinema (the reason I use Bollywood is to signify Bombay/ Mumbai centric part of the industry) is very important.
Also, that is why I did not include Satyajit Ray.
Ikey Benney, generalising about Hollywood is just as wack as generalising about Bollywood, bro.
Plenty of Hollywood movies involve no "criminality, murder, gore, depravity, profanity and lunacy" and many Bollywood films feature all of them. It ain't cut and dry. What you've described is escapism. I live in London with a comfortable life, I don't need to see people cavorting in the mountains, I want a good story.
I've seen Back to the Future I-III, Indiana Jones RotLA-TLC, Star Wars IV-VI, Ghostbusters, The Matrix, The Godfather and The Shawshank Redemption about 1000 times in total.
Bong Breaker, Techno etc,
Re: Heterosexual Shilpa Shetty in Phir Milenge vs gay Tom Hanks in Philadelphia
I was going to mention My Brother Nikhil but a couple of you have beaten me to it. However, having the lead character in Philadelphia as a straight woman did make a very good point, which perhaps Bong Breaker may have missed -- it was the difference in people's reaction to her HIV status (the assumptions/accusations of promiscuity and the fact that she subsequently loses her job because of her perceived "lack of morals") compared to how Abhishek's open promiscuity in the film resulted in him receiving comparatively little social condemnation and ostracisation. I think that this was an extremely relevant point about the double-standards in some quarters of desi society regarding female vs. male sexual behaviour (actual and perceived).
Apart from Dil Chahta Hai which we've already discussed, I guess other "hip and stylish" modern examples of this would be Bluffmaster, Dus etc. I quite like movies like that if I feel like an alternative to the more serious Bollywood fare -- it's the Hindi version of slick (and yes, admittedly macho-but-fun) blockbusters like Beverley Hills Cop, Lethal Weapon, and so on.
Sometimes the storyline of such innovative (by Indian standards anyway) films doesn't always match up to the style -- eg. Karam, Shabd -- but they're entertaining to watch from an artistic perspective, and you have to give them bonus points for taking a different route to the usual Karan Johar genre.
An excellent film I can recommend is Ek Hasina Thi -- stars Urmila, Saif Ali Khan (as you've never seen him before -- he plays a completely ruthless b*stard type, and is surprisingly good in the image-breaking role). My Wife's Murder is also good -- quite unpredictable.
Both of the above are by Ram Gopal Varma, who -- incidentally -- is also apparently going to make a sequel to Sarkar.
Ek Haseena Thi sucked hard. It started off promising, like so so many Bollyfilms, but went rapidly downhill. See also: Masti. There I was thinking wow, a cool comedy with some risqué jokes and then BAM it's the frikking police special anti-adultery unit. A