Ronald wasn't spared either, still managed to hold that smile though

Are you sure you're doing the right thing in repeatedly running the line generally taken by mainstream Western media outlets in relation to these protests, ie that they're all just one big overreaction to a bunch of racist cartoons?

It seems to me that many protesters are actually generalising their anger from a specific reaction to the cartoons into a broader reaction to the "West". It's quite obvious from the placards and pictures of the demonstrations that they are about a much longer list of grievances than just the cartoons, including Israel's role in the Middle East, Western powers' violence against geopolitically strategic Muslim populations, the Eurocentric "superior Western values" discourse, etc.

Whether or not the demonstrations have been useful and productive is another issue, as are the questions of who is sponsoring them, and how these super-conservative Islamists get to claim they are the authoritative spokespeople for Muslims around the world. But really, these protests are not just about the cartoons, and this disparaging tone of "look at these silly, angry Muslims" is not much chop, and frankly, just repeats much of the uninformed reporting carried by indignant broadsheets on a daily basis.

I dont understand what burning down U.S based businesses(ie: Holiday Inn, Citibank, McDonalds, Pizza Hut and KFC) and U.S flags has to do with a Danish newspaper printing a inappropriate cartoon.

I was reading an article that stated "where intelligence officials suspected outlawed Islamic militant groups incited the violence to undermine President Gen. Pervez Musharraf's U.S.-allied government. An Associated Press reporter in Lahore saw crowd members who appeared to be orchestrating the attacks, directing protesters — some of whom were carrying containers of kerosene — toward particular targetsit was a normal rally/march until the extremist started directing the crowd into violence. "

It seems that anything and everything that happens will turn into anti-U.S protests. Even if the U.S had nothing to do with it (this time).

I also enjoyed this article about other religions being made fun of

brownfrown, where have you gone? these threads scream out for your well-articulated points and biting wit.

In a previous thread zfr. made a poignant statement which I was disappointed to see no one engage with:

it hasn’t had nearly as much impact in the U.S. as it has had in Europe and the rest of the world. Do Americans even care or understand what this is all about? Why am I not hearing more about this from the desi community?

most likely b/c there is not an entrenched muslim establishment in the US that would stoke the fires of north american muslims in order to solidify its own political strength. and that kind of self-serving manipulation, i'd contend, is what we are reading about in europe, lebanon, afghanistan, and wherever else violent demonstrations have occurred. it's mobs of people incited by 'muslim' leaders. today it's the cartoon, a few weeks back its the Qu'ran down the toilet, and any other time it's female athletes in shorts or state bans on hijab.

i think your understanding of these protests has been to treat them as representative of muslims-in-general. that's a huge mistake. you've given those images too much meaning. most certainly, all over the world, muslims are non-violently protesting the Danish publication's cartoon. the global economic boycott on Danish goods has been successful precisely b/c it is popular with muslims who don't identify with those creating violence. however, peaceful protests aren't captured in the AP and Getty archives.

the Philly demo was, tho. and your conclusion then is that an intrinsic cultural difference explains why a north american demo appears peaceful and other demos around the world appear insane? you argue that there's something distinctly American about civil disobedience and protest-- other cultures don't have our love for the underdog, they don't have the potent rationalism that guides are movements.... hmm. i'm sorry, but that notion is weak, man. and highly problematic in that it reeks of whitebread American Exceptionalism. why are you, essentially, ranking protest models, assigning them to different cultures, and then privileging the one that comes easiest to you? it's not exactly a productive project.

finally, i don't think that we can condemn as idol worshippers those muslims who are riled up about the cartoon. the modern anxiety with images of the prophet is not simply a vestige of anti-idolatry; it is more powerfully a symptom of Europe's domination over muslim culture, thought, and semiotics. the Danish cartoonist literally appropriated the Prophet's meaning--something so central to muslims around the world because it defines their own meaning/subjectivity.

in any case, my main point is that this latest flare-up in the press and around the world can't be reduced to easy differentiations. stateside, we shouldn't feel compelled to make those reductions.

They have a massive protest planned on Mar 3.. If I am a Christian in Pakistan living near Christian schools/ churches I'd be taking safety measures..

It is funny to see these guys burning the "assembly building".. When all the legislators are themselves supporting the protests..

...and this just in

Indian sailor beaten to death over cartoon row in UAE

Dubai, Feb 15 (PTI) An Indian sailor was allegedly beaten to death by his colleagues on board a Norwegian oil tanker in the international waters off the coast of Fujairah in the UAE following an argument over the cartoon row.
A fight ensued among the seamen after an argument over the cartoon issue, causing the death of one sailor, a media report said.

Official sources confirmed the death of 31-year-old Sudheer Nonia Jagannathan, hailing from Mumbai, but refused to comment on the issue.

"We have been informed about the death. Our officials visited the Fujairah Hospital and collected the details. The investigation is going on and once it is over, the consulate will render all the help to repatriate the body," an Indian official told the 'Khaleej Times'.

The entire crew on the ship was from India. The ship was coming from New Manglore Port in Karnataka and going towards Fujairah with chemicals. The deceased worked as a fitter on the ship.

The captain of the oil tanker has denied any foul play. He and his crew members were remanded to custody of the Fujairah Police, the report added. PTI

http://www.ptinews.com/pti/ptisite.nsf/$All/9C97E79CEB42C60C652571160028FA19?OpenDocument

No question politicians have been fanning the flames, but an underlying concern is - why is it so easy to do this? Politicians in every country are up to tricks of all sorts. I doubt they would succeed in whipping up such a frenzy. This article from the Telegraph talks about the culture of hate that has become the foundation of Islamic societies. In such an atmosphere it's easy to stir up such passions.

We were brought up to hate - and we do, By Nonie Darwish

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/02/12/do1205.xml

Clash of Civilization is ON !!! This is just chapter 1.

Our guys in marketing just told us to start advertising "frame broiled chicken" in place of our usual murgha pakora. If life gives you lemons ...

I dont understand what burning down U.S based businesses(ie: Holiday Inn, Citibank, McDonalds, Pizza Hut and KFC) and U.S flags has to do with a Danish newspaper printing a inappropriate cartoon.

As if more learned Americans can distinguish between Arab Muslims and South Asian Muslims...

What a bunch of ingrates! How soon could these thankless people forget the tremendous outpouring of emotional and financial support from the Western world in the aftermath of the deadly earthquake? Talk about biting the hand that feeds one.

"As if more learned Americans can distinguish between Arab Muslims and South Asian Muslims..."

When Westerners start setting them on fire, then that might be an apt comparison. Right now, it's a minor matter. Considerng that Islam encourages its followers to disregard the ethnic and linguistic differences among Muslims, shouldn't Westerners be commended for being ahead of the curve on this?

I think a more appropriate analogy would be Westerners torching the embassies of Muslim countries in retaliation for 9/11, 7/7 etc. Along with large-scale riots attacking Muslim-owned restaurants, businesses, etc -- and an economic boycott of countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and so on.

I'm just giving an example -- I don't support the above, obviously.

Considerng that Islam encourages its followers to disregard the ethnic and linguistic differences among Muslims, shouldn't Westerners be commended for being ahead of the curve on this?

Actually, Westerners who do it are especially foolish because they only serve the cause of Islamists by lumping all Muslims together. Granted that Islam has no particular aspiration to pluralism, but pluralism among Muslims still remains an empirical reality. It's important to fight Islamists by also opposing pan-Islamism whereever we see it - by drawing distinctions between the traditions of an Arab Muslim or an Indonesian Muslim or an Indian Muslim or whatever (even though with modern identity politics, this remains a long, uphill battle).

Westerners who do it are especially foolish

My stand is that both sides (western and radical Islamists) are getting rhetorical mileage out of this. The westernes can demonize whole Islam and justify their stand on "war on terror". On the other side, violent Islamic protests are cliniclaly planned and orchestrated to draw more people to radical Islam.

As somebody said - This is just Chapter 1.

In Islam the West sees a challenge to its very foundation and in the West, Islam sees a challenge to its very foundation.
May the side which most honestly espouses freedom and respects our fundamental rights be left standing.

Grab your popcorn and enjoy the show......

This talk of civilizational clash reminds me of that saying by that very wise indian - kyapata - who spake the timeless caveat - "do ki ladayee, teesra ki jeet"
Whether the "teesra" is the Indic or the Sinic man is anybody's guess.
My rupee is on the home team

In Islam the West sees a challenge to its very foundation and in the West, Islam sees a challenge to its very foundation.

This is all reductionist horseshit. This has been going on for thousands of years. More accurately, a small number of Muslim and Christian wingnuts see the 'clash of civilizations' story as a path to money and power and flog it with astroturf 'riots' and rant blogs.

This talk of civilizational clash reminds me of that saying by that very wise indian - kyapata - who spake the timeless caveat - "do ki ladayee, teesra ki jeet" Whether the "teesra" is the Indic or the Sinic man is anybody's guess.

If the jihadists somehow win the "struggle" against the West, it would be very naive indeed for anyone to assume that they will not subsequently turn their attention to the rest of the planet. Plus OBL has already openly said that he regards India as being an enemy nation.

Unless the idea of living under Islamic rule somehow appeals to you, in which case we are obviously on opposite sides of the argument.

Jai,
Quit being an alarmist!

The only clash of civilization is the one in your head. The one you want to see is not going to happen.

Grab your popcorn and enjoy the show......

This talk of civilizational clash reminds me of that saying by that very wise indian - kyapata - who spake the timeless caveat - "do ki ladayee, teesra ki jeet" Whether the "teesra" is the Indic or the Sinic man is anybody's guess. My rupee is on the home team

The one you want to see is not going to happen.

What makes you think I "want" to see anything of the sort ?

Because of your over estimation of the jihadists and their plans.

Also, I was speaking hypothetically. There is no way any group with jihadist tendencies could win -- they underestimate the resourcefulness of the West and, more pertinently, the lengths they would go to in order to defend themselves if matters reached that kind of extreme.

The first Indian casuality of this episode is Sudheer Nonia Jagannathan, who was beaten to death by his colleagues (no brownie points for guessing their religion which the TOI has not mentioned).

The Indian press, as expected, has curled itself into a fetal position regarding the whole episode. Not one publication has had the courage to re-print the cartoons.

If anything else, this episode has given fillip to Islamist forces who don't want democracy in the middle east. "See...this is what will happen when you have democracy, free-press, freedom of speech etc etc. Our religion will be reduced to a parody."

As someone else on this thread said: Sit back with your popcorn and enjoy the long show which is just begining, and will last for decades if not centuries. And try not to have front-row seats - you might accidentally catch friendly fire.

M. Nam

There is no way any group with jihadist tendencies could win -- they underestimate the resourcefulness of the West and, more pertinently, the lengths they would go to in order to defend themselves if matters reached that kind of extreme.

There is no movement to take over the 'West'. Even the jihadists are not planning on taking over the 'West'. Go to jihadist websites and see what they want. Listen to OBL's speeches.
This Jihadist wanting to take over the West is a ridiculous proposition peddled by the beneficiaries of the Military Industrial Complex and blood lusting chicken hawks who want to be the arm chair generals of a never ending war.

Because of your over estimation of the jihadists and their plans.

Well, 3 major terrorist attacks here in the UK have been foiled since last July. Also, we have some openly-jihadist groups here who are quite happy to appear on the news and state their support for OBL etc, not to mention the same groups involved in the frankly-treasonous protests here in London about 10 days ago. The reality of them achieving their aims may be overestimated, but the exact nature of their ambitions is not.

Assuming you live in the US, you are lucky that the Muslim population over there is a hell of a lot more educated, successful, and integrated than a disproportionate number of their counterparts on this side of the Atlantic. So, unfortunately, perhaps Indians living here in the UK have a slightly different perspective on these matters.

In any case, this still doesn't mean I "want" to see any kind of major West vs. Islam "clash of civilisations". I'm not the one who posted messages on this thread gleefully telling others to "sit back and enjoy the show".

Moornam: Can I borrow your half pants?

Hmmm....I don't think anyone on this particular thread has any RSS tendencies.....

Sit back with your popcorn and enjoy the long show which is just begining, and will last for decades if not centuries. And try not to have front-row seats - you might accidentally catch friendly fire.

A quick update on the situation in Canada for a different perspective - two publications in Calgary (where else!) have printed the cartoons, despie the fact that the rest of the national press has decided not to. The Muslim community in the city, though livid, has not gone on the offensive by trashing the offices of the publications - they are taking the matter to the courts. No clash between "Islam" and "Western freedoms" in this case :p

Jai:
You are right. I attributed Expose's remarks to you. My bad!

Well, 3 major terrorist attacks here in the UK have been foiled since last July. Also, we have some openly-jihadist groups here who are quite happy to appear on the news and state their support for OBL etc, not to mention the same groups involved in the frankly-treasonous protests here in London about 10 days ago

Yes, but these are irritants albeit of murderous capabilities.
They have no ability, capacity, willingness, followin to take over the West.

Assuming you live in the US, you are lucky that the Muslim population over there is a hell of a lot more educated, successful, and integrated than a disproportionate number of their counterparts on this side of the Atlantic. So, unfortunately, perhaps Indians living here in the UK have a slightly different perspective on these matters.

I cant disagree with that either. I have been to UK as I went to school there for a year. The Muslims there are pretty fucked up in general. They are infinitely more conservative than the people in the countries they/their parents came from. They are still living the life which existed in Mirpur in 1952 or Silhet in 1953. They have actually become even more conservative because now they are becoming Deobandis, Wahabis though they were Sufis, Barelvis, or plain old South Asian hanafis back in their homeland or their parents homeland.
Also a lot of the Pakistani Muslims are from Mirpur and the BDeshis are from Silhet, the two most backward, conservative areas in Pakistan and BDesh respectively. I was frankly appalled by the living conditions, style of dressing, mannerims, views and ideas expressed by people living in Bradford/Bolton/London.
My interaction with the Paki/Bangladeshi Muslims was pretty minimal though. I did see visit with my relatives who are mostly Indian British Muslims. I thought they were more like the Desi Muslims you see in the US.

Al Mujiheed Debauchery Cartoons Dude,

You are right. I attributed Expose's remarks to you. My bad!

*Jai's blood-pressure goes back down to normal*

I was wondering what was going on ;) Come on man, you should know me better by now, predominantly from my posts here on SM but also to a lesser extent from Pickled Politics too.

You're right about Indian Muslims here in the UK generally being less conservative; numerically there are far less of them than Pakistanis & Bangladeshis, of course.

The "Arabization" in recent times is something we've all talked about before both on SM and PP; it's interesting that some of the most radical and trouble-making imams here are actually of Arab origin, yet their followers are drawn mostly (but not exclusively) from British Pakistanis. You can see what is happening here.

A quick update on the situation in Canada for a different perspective - two publications in Calgary (where else!) have printed the cartoons, despie the fact that the rest of the national press has decided not to. The Muslim community in the city, though livid, has not gone on the offensive by trashing the offices of the publications - they are taking the matter to the courts. No clash between "Islam" and "Western freedoms" in this case :p

The Indian press, as expected, has curled itself into a fetal position regarding the whole episode. Not one publication has had the courage to re-print the cartoons.

The Indian sailor incident is reprehensible, and the perps will definitely face charges of cold-blooded murder.

But, freedom of speech or not, you know that publishing the cartoons will cause riots in India (and more than just the headquarters of the Old Lady of Bombay). Do you really want the press to fan the flames of communalism? There's idealism (I am a libertarian too and I believe in free speech etc.) and then there is realpolitik. Do you want more people to be killed in Indian cities just based on a stupid cartoon?

to continue my thots from #37, I attended the online panel hosted by Doug Sanders in the G&M - whose writing i adore - that one of the reasons this has got out of control is because the imams , somewhat disingenously took the original offending cartoons into the islamic community ANDDD... a couple of others which were very offensive... including one portraying the Prophet with a pig's snout nd committing sodomy... heck... let me just do the needful.. here's the link and the excerpt

Doug Saunders: Hearsay, mostly. Our reporter Mark MacKinnon in Beiruit asked a number of anti-cartoon protesters what they believed had been printed. Most thought that every major English newspaper had printed them, and that they include images of Mohammed sodomizing people and appearing as a pig. In fact, no such images were among them, and no major English newspaper has printed them. So I'd say there are some pretty serious distortions out there in the Middle East — but this is what people now believe across the region.

Moornam-
I don't see WHY news publications in India ought to re-print the cartoons and stir up trouble. India does not have the same culture of free speech as in the West (there's an understatement)- self-censorship/respect when it comes to religion is quite common and widely accepted as necessary for maintaining the peace.

As for Indian news publications censoring religious identities while reporting, it's just pointless and stupid because EVERYONE still knows who did the killing and who was killed. I remember the old "member of the minority community" news items in ToI. Like no one knew what the minority community was. It's just another way to keep the peace and there's a nice sentiment behind it (however silly and ineffective).

After reading some of the comments in this thread I am reminded of this

Doug Saunders: That was the beginning of the whole catastrophe. The booklet of cartoons that the Danish imams took to Syria, Lebanon and Egypt contained images of the Prophet as a pig, a dog, a woman and a sodomizer — none of which had ever been published in a Danish paper (or any paper anywhere). Mr. Akkari, the leader of the delegation, showed these to me and told me that he'd included them because they'd been included in hate mail that he and his colleagues had been sent by right-wing extremists. He told me that he'd made it clear that the two sets of images were separate. But that was lost on the people who received the images, and on the larger population who heard fast-growing urban myths about them. Mr. Akkari told me that he had no idea of the reaction this would cause. I suspect he was partly naïve, but also somewhat disingenuous — obviously, the package was intended as a provocation of some sort, even if they couldn't have anticipated exactly what it would provoke.

DDIA, let alone publishing the cartoons, the whole fiasco is being meagerly convered by the Indian media because it might unrest the minority sentiments (and I'm for that). But the same logic and approach is not used for other communities and is further exacerbated by free-speech/expression. Thats the hypocracy of Indian media which is troublesome.

" This has been going on for thousands of years."

I couldn't agree more, Manish.
All I am trying to do is draw attention to and hoping to understand the cause of this ongoing, my god has a bigger dick than yours match.
The difference between me and some of you, outraged at my remarks, commenters is that I do not share your optimism and I tend to call it like it is....unvarnished and politicaly in correct.

Note: My ideal world would be totally devoid of religion and god nonsense.

Note: My ideal world would be totally devoid of religion and god nonsense.

Well said, The place that was getting closer is Europe after fighting hundreds of years to show the Church its place.. But if the immigrants bring their "blasphemy" baggage, church is going to come back and it will be back to "crusades" and "jihad" again.. sigh..

To I_Miss_Brownfrown: Clearly you are my favourite :) Sorry about the absence dude - I needed to take a post-thesis proposal break from the brown.

As for responses to this post - all this "Clash of Civilisation" stuff is too Huntington 101 for me. Aren't we over that guy yet? This isn't a sudden clash and these aren't monolithic "Civilisations" lunging at each other - it's an anti-colonial struggle. The same kind of reaction we had in, say, Algeria or any of those Fanon-inspired resistance/insurgency movements. It's convinient to paint this as the secular, rational, democratic West (read: capitalism) against the dark, religious, backwards East (read Islam), but that's too easy. This has less to do with god and more to do with good old oppression and imperialism.

Why attack American symbols when the perp is a Danish newspaper? Because boiled down to its elements, it IS an American hegemony that is behind the latest bout of colonial rule. This time, the semiotics are different, so the targets are different. There's no point blowing up parliament buildings or I dunno, some battalion somemwhere because the real power rests with the MNCs. The KFCs, the McDonalds, Nikes, Wal-marts, malls, theatres, buy, buy, capitalism capitalism.

And capitalism, incidentally, needs a demonised "other" that cannot be given a voice in its own system, in order for it to survive. It used to be the commies. Now it's the "Islamists" and things are slightly different; 1. The Islamists lack the capital to go about building nukes like the Russians did and 2. The primacy of nation has broken down. So not only is nouveau colonialism a global network with no discernable locus (hence the tying of Danish cartoons to American corporations) but the response from "Islamists" (god do I hate that word) is also wide, varied and international. Some of the tactics are crazy, extreme and violent. But a lot of what they are reacting to is also crazy, extreme and violent. (Anyone see those latest Abu Graib pics yet? I almost threw up my breakfast).

And Expose - maybe I'm picking on you b/c your post is right at the end and therefore easy to spot - but considering you'd like to be rid of all this "god nonsense", that was a pretty heartfelt, hand-wringy post you had up about California texbooks getting all thier "Hinduism" "facts" wrong. What, some god nonsense is better than other god nonsense?

Bf: your linkage between Danish cartoons and American MNCs is as silly as the mass conflation of the 'clash of civilizations' narrative. And it's the same 'punish them all' idea that lies behind American acceptance of civilian casualties in Iraq. In short, your argument hangs on the hook of self-contradiction.

Ha.
Manish - I'm not saying that the link is particularly logical or effective. But if that's the rationale, that's the rationale. There is an undeniable urge in these situations to conflate the toys of the "western devils" and attack them all - do you disagree with that?
Would I go burn down a KFC because some yahoo somewhere called me a Paki? No. But I have the luxury of being trained to "use my words". In English. You try explaining the all the subtle variances between mid-western US culture and Scandanavian politics and Gaullic institutionalised racism to someone who doesn't speak English, can't afford schooling and who's trained by a bunch of angry (and perhaps crazy) religious extremists. The link's not mine - but it gets made and there is a certain method to the maddness.

I think a more appropriate analogy would be Westerners torching the embassies of Muslim countries in retaliation for 9/11, 7/7 etc. Along with large-scale riots attacking Muslim-owned restaurants, businesses, etc -- and an economic boycott of countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and so on.

Pakistan:
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 48.7%
male: 61.7%
female: 35.2% (2004 est.)
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $2,400 (2005 est.)

USA:
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 97%
male: 97%
female: 97% (1999 est.)
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $41,800 (2005 est.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

Also, what about the economic boycott of France and everything French by the Americans in 2003? Alot of Americans are STILL boycotting France..

I should make my position clear. I am the one who used the phrase "Clash of Civilizations" in the comment section, and I must admit that it was an attempt to start flames. Sorry !! I dont really think that the whole silly thing about Cartoons is "Clash of Civilizations" at all. Infact the "violent protests" is like a walk in the park compared to a day in Iraq.

I am aware of Samuel P Huntington's book about Clash of Civilizations I havent read the book, but have read the critic of it by Siva Vaidyanathan (I think) and I dont agree AT ALL with the book's premise.
But as several other commentor's noted that both sides have interest groups who wish to characterize this a "Clash of Civilizations".

Anuj, I have always held that the Indian news media is just one big load of fecal matter. And I agree that not discussing the problem does not help. But republishing the cartoons does not add to anything except further a certain "look at us we can do this kind of shit if we want to" swinging dick attitude among the members of the 4th estate.

Also, No compromise, I will ignore your silly statement since I don't classify myself as a liberal. But that does not stop me from classifying your silly diversion as a non-sequitur.

DDIA, which country would you say has good news media?

"And Expose - maybe I'm picking on you b/c your post is right at the end and therefore easy to spot - but considering you'd like to be rid of all this "god nonsense", that was a pretty heartfelt, hand-wringy post you had up about California texbooks getting all thier "Hinduism" "facts" wrong. What, some god nonsense is better than other god nonsense?"

Brownfrown - My qualm with the California school system was not inspired by religion or god. Albeit it may seem so.

I have a cousin who grew up in California and is a product of the sate's school system.
Growing up she had to face some very ignorant and sometimes hateful remarks about her Hindu/Indian heritage.
Some of the incidents she recalled for me are truly horrible and have left an indelible scar on her psyche.
So my grouse is rooted in concern for the Hindu/Indian kids who will continue to face more ridicule and harrassment, especially, in the smaller disctricts where they can't find safety in numbers.
If I had my say, I would not teach anything religious. And If compelled to do so, I would treat all religions with the scorn they deserve.
For example, I would teach that not a single prophet's, including Mohd's existence can be proven historically. And tell them of their prophets misogyny and intolerance.
I would tell the students about the evil unleashed upon our planet by monotheism.
I would teach them that none [including Hinduism] of the religions deemed women to be equal....ever. Especially, Islam.

Above all I would call it like it is.....No Political correctness in my classroom. No siree, Bob. My class would have cartoons just for the heck of it.

For example, I would teach that not a single prophet's, including Mohd's existence can be proven historically.

There are historical records verifying the exact dates for the births, deaths, and major life events of all 10 Sikh Gurus during the 200 years from Guru Nanak until Guru Gobind Singh.

And tell them of their prophets misogyny and intolerance.

With all due respect, I suggest you conduct some proper research into North Indian history with regards to the individuals mentioned above.

I would teach them that none [including Hinduism] of the religions deemed women to be equal....ever. Especially, Islam.

Then I'm afraid you'd be mistaken. Sikhism does, explicitly and unequivocally.

republishing the cartoons does not add to anything

Expose -
Without going into the particular myths of any tradition, it is, I think, dangerous as a whole to conflate history and religion. Religions are ontological systems - they have thier own currency and thier own logic and thier own fantastical accounts which may not make much sense scientifically or historically. Most would not stand up to that kind of "empirical" analysis - and they shouldn't have to.

I would also question your definition of "religion". The anti-religion "secular" stance you seem to take could be seen as just as strong as a belief system as any of these religions that you "scorn".

As for your cousin, I'm sorry she's faced such trauma because of what has been taught in the California school system about Hinduism. However, we have to be careful not to extend that same injustice to other religions such as Islam in an urge to clean up the religious education kids recieve. I don't know if attacking the basic tennants of Islam or railing against misogyny to that age group is the best way to ensure equal and fair treatment. And believe me, as a feminist and a woman, misogyny on all levels makes me see red. But show me one privilaged system - religious or "secular" - that hasn't been grotesquely skewed towards heterosexual men. It seems like these traditions only (sometimes) start becoming more inclusive once they are critiqued by feminist voices.

i'm jumping in late, but...

"Anuj, I have always held that the Indian news media is just one big load of fecal matter. "

TOI and HT are, yes, but both the hindu and asian age have addressed the cartoon issue AND the ensuing unrest thru articles and several editorials.... so i think you just have to get your eyes off of TOI/HT -- i think it's like looking at some of america's less than stellar publications and basing the entire print media on them...

Jai, in # 54
I stand corrected on your first and second points. An oversight on my part. Do forgive. On the third, I will have to disagree very strongly. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
If you haven't already, I would urge you to spend some time in Punjab and see for yourself.

Brwonfrown - I love this quote by the nobel recepient linus pauling.

" all religions are not equal. some are much worse than others"
So apt.

And in my opinion, in our times, Islam can easily lay claim to the worst spot.
As I said this is my opinion. Informed by personal experiences and observation.

Expose,

On the third, I will have to disagree very strongly. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

We are talking about specific religious tenets, not the behaviour of some alleged followers of the faith who contradict the ideals of the religion they claim affiliation to. The latter is an abherration, not evidence of misogyny in the religion itself. Sikhism is very, very clear indeed about the complete equality between men and women.

Unfortunately, as you've correctly indicated, people sometimes don't put these ideals into practice. But the religion itself states gender equality (in absolutely all aspects) as a fundamental principle for "ideal" human behaviour and spiritual enlightenment, and all 10 of the Sikh Gurus were very firm about promoting this concept. How matters may have changed in the 300 years after Guru Gobind Singh's death with regards to the real-life implementation of these ideals is, of course, possibly a different matter (unfortunately).

both the hindu and asian age have addressed the cartoon issue

There's no point blowing up parliament buildings or I dunno, some battalion somemwhere because the real power rests with the MNCs.

If those protestors happened to come upon a non-Western Hindu walking home, do you think he would've been spared? I don't see why we have to conclude that this is about "oppression or imperialism" just because a KFC was targetted in addition to other shops and businesses. It seems like a riot that expanded to include the usual targets.

P.S. How does capitalism depend on a "demonized other" to survive? Nation states, I can see, but not capitalism...If anything, capitalism thrives on converting all sorts of "others" into segments to be targeted like anything else.

"We are talking about specific religious tenets, not the behaviour of some alleged followers of the faith who contradict the ideals of the religion they claim affiliation to."

I have to agree with Expose on this b/c the above is true of any religion which has extremists. Another problem is identifying what the 'specifics religious tenets' are b/c extremists also justify that they are indeed following such tenets. From my understanding, all religions have some sort of contradicting tenets....which is what leads to problems amongst believers who follow them differently...

I was thinking about TOI/HT when I made that sweeping generalization (I stand corrected). The Asian Age is just a sleazy little rag that my folks banned from the house when they began leading with stories about the efficacy of certain oysters in the manly equipment department -- making for really awkward tea-and-toast conversations. The Hindu and Statesman are both good newspapers but a bit too left leaning for my political tastes (no fault of their's).

But they are still nowhere compared to the NYTimes or the WashPo in terms of coverage, analysis and style. Most of the regional US dailies though, such as the Austin American Statesman -- that torchbearer of truth, justice and responsible journalism -- carry articles about how to get the best Christmas deals in under 30 mins at your neighbourhood JC Penny's on their front pages. Or swing the other way and talk about what Cindy Sheehan had for lunch today.

"References would be helpful. To my knowledge, the issued wasnt covered in Indian media until very lately"

can't give you references, but can let you go thru my recycle bin -- i read the asian age and hindu each day before work and they all covered it with not only full blown articles but with editorials, and not just today or the the day before. i know that the hindu and asian age especially covered the srinagar reaction with front page pictures plus news.

as for asian age, have you read it lately? totally revamped, got picked up by the international herald tribune and NYT to try and make a good newspaper in india, day by day it gets better, ya they still have crap in their supplement but the bulk of the newspaper has a fair amount of excellent journalism. and they carry all the nyt and iht columnists.

If those protestors happened to come upon a non-Western Hindu walking home, do you think he would've been spared?

I'll find out in late May-June. Seriously, I will be in Pakistan-India, in fact also in PoK Kashmir. We'll see - I still need to get a visa to Pakistan.

Rani,

Another problem is identifying what the 'specifics religious tenets' are b/c extremists also justify that they are indeed following such tenets. From my understanding, all religions have some sort of contradicting tenets....which is what leads to problems amongst believers who follow them differently...

I know what you mean, but the above actually isn't true with regards to Sikhism. The faith has no "contradicting tenets" with regards to the question of gender equality. There is absolutely no religious basis or justification whatsoever for misogyny, or the general mistreatment of, injustice towards, or oppression of women; these things do indeed occur due to various localised cultural factors, but are not due to the religion itself, which takes a diametrically-opposite stance on the matter. I don't want to take this thread too off-topic so instead I can refer you to the following sources, which concisely summarise the status of women from the traditional Sikh perspective:

1. Women in Sikhism
2. Quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Kush Tandon wrote:

I will be in Pakistan-India, in fact also in PoK Kashmir. We'll see - I still need to get a visa to Pakistan.

Practice saying Azad Kashmir. It might help.

Practice saying Azad Kashmir. It might help.

Pakistan controlled Kashmir might be a better term. I prefer 'Indian controlled Kashmir' for the part of Kashmir controlled by India and Pakistan controlled Kashmir for the part of Kashmir controlled by Pakistan.

as for asian age, have you read it lately? totally revamped,

That sounds like good news :)

"Practice saying Azad Kashmir. It might help."

"Pakistan controlled Kashmir might be a better term."

We'll see. Or I might act as a firangi and keep complaining about lack of western-style toilets in Muzaffarabad. Who knows?

Now Indian flamers have put a bounty on the head of the cartoonists

In a shocking demand, UP cabinet minister and senior Samajwadi Party leader Mohammed Yaqoob Qureshi on Friday called for the beheading of the cartoonist who had sketched Prophet Mohammed for a Danish newspaper and announced that he would give "the avenger" Rs 51 crore and weigh him in gold.

Nice goin' by the party that is although not part of the ruling congress party but has given its "support" to the "secular" central govt. of India.

And it's the same 'punish them all' idea that lies behind American acceptance of civilian casualties in Iraq.

Do u seriously believe what u said? What are you? A brown Michael Moore? If America and the West hadn't really cared about civilian casualties, the war in Iraq would have been long over.