Sunny Leone - 23 'actress.' "…is the first performer of Indian descent (her parents were born in the Indian state of Punjab) to become a Vivid Girl.".

assimilation should only go so far! the body is a temple and stuff.

Do they have to be under 30? I nominate Jhumpa Lahiri, although I'm pretty sure she's over 30.

What about the latest super-younger literary sensation, Kaavya Viswanathan? She'd barely written a sentence, and was still an undergrad at (wouldn'tcha know it) Harvard, when she was the subject of a furious bidding war and ended up with something along the lines of a half a mil advance for her first novel. The result, How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild, and Got A Life is pure chick lit, but got favorable reviews for being among the smartest in that genre.

Hmmmm....personally I am not sure that Sunny Leone is much of a role model - I think desi girls can do well and be independent without going to porn!

I think desi girls can do well and be independent without going to porn!

amen! (exclusion for lesbian porn of course)

Don't get me wrong, I don't think bad of Sunny Leone for what she does - good luck to her, and I admire her doing what she wants with her body. But I think desi girls can be independent and successful and sassy without doing porn! Call me old fashioned because I know you are supposed to be blase about porn these days like it's no big thing, but hey, I guess I am old fashioned then - I don't really see taking your clothes off and having sex in front of a camera as a particularly great thing to hold up as a career or a role model for desi girls in America.

I dont agree with Amrita's comments w.r.t Sunny. Its not that she went into porn industry for acceptance or to be different. She went and took the industry like a storm. Its about doing what she felt comfortable to do. Just a few hundred years back, devdasis were offered to temple who are later used by royalty and nobility as objects of porn. Those women didnt have a choice, whereas this woman did. I think thats what matters - the power to choose.

Prasad

Cool - but would you like it if your daughter went into porn? For me, that is my criteria for being a role model. And I would not like my daughter to go into porn. All the other women in the list are great - independent, successful, sexy, strong, doing something different from the norm. But if I wouldn't want my daughter doing that kind of thing, I personally would not regard her as a role model for desi girls.

Parminder Nager

typo alert. Nagra.

When faced with that pointe blanc Q, I wouldnt know how to respond. If and when I have a daughter, I can only hope to instill confidence and independance in her so that when she becomes an adult she would choose what is right for her. If at that time, she finds Sunny as her role model, probably I will have to just suck up the reality and accept. Its not like we are going to show Sunny's naked picture to a 12 yr old and tell her - 'beti, look at her', with glazed eyes. Likewise, you dont tell your 14 yr old kid that it is OK to be gay; if and when the shit hits the fan, we just need to be prepared to grab the umbrella :)

Personally, I dont see Sunny any different than Nandita Das (or any other actress who'd shed clothes in front camera or off camera for that matter) - since we are all aware of certain thing called casting couch.

a pedantic note, the term "role model" did not show up in taz's original post. a point of shading, but i think important. people differ. i do not grant that being a porn actress would be something most individuals could handle very well, but, there is variation and some people might not have issues with it for whatever reason. it might be the right choice for sunny without being the right choice for our daughters or future daughters.

btw, on a slight OT note, the porn star taylor rain does not perform in interracial scenes because her father opposes it. when i first read that i was struck by the bizarro sensibility here: "sure honey, get DPed, but only by men of our race!" there is a wide range of morality under god's heaven, though some more commmon than others.

There are tons of women who passed the 30 mark who blazed trails long before such lists came out....off the top of my head...

Bhairavi Desai (Taxiworkers Alliance in NYC)
DJ Rekha (no introduction necessary)
Sonal Shah (Indicorps and immense humanitarian work)
The founders of Sakhi (established in 1989)
The founders of Manavi (established in 1985)
Geeta Citygirl (Salaam)

Is this the first time DPed has been used in verb form on Sepia Mutiny?

We've gone hazaar mainstream, yaar.

btw, on a slight OT note, the porn star taylor rain does not perform in interracial scenes because her father opposes it.

Not true Razib. She confessed on Howard Stern that she HAD without telling her father.

[disclaimer: I hate Stern. I learned this by watching 5 minutes of Stern's T.V. show which happened to have Rain on it the one and only time I watched. She was fine. I'm not made of stone.]

Kavita Ramchandran, who created the cute animated kid's short Happy Holi Maya.

She confessed on Howard Stern that she HAD without telling her father.

ok, i've heard that tale. my point was that it is a rather bizarre dad who is more concerned with the race of her sexual partners rather than the video-taping of the act :)

do not grant that being a porn actress would be something most individuals could handle very well, but, there is variation and some people might not have issues with it for whatever reason.

I remember reading an article a long time ago about sexual trauma and one of the things it mentioned was that very often porn stars only own up to being miserable about their work about 20 years after the fact. In their early years they talk about how in control of their lives they are and how great it's going. It's decades later that they begin to admit even to themselves how abused and powerless they actually felt the whole time. Of course not everybody would go through this syndrome but it seems very plausible.

Hey! MIA is British peeps, please find your own desi stars. She belongs to us :)

Wait a sec, so does Parminder. Ermm... so yeah - go find your own!

this is a great girlie post - thanks taz! :)

I found alpana singh really fascinating, being a bit of a wannabe wine aficionado myself...here's a interesting interview with her where her boss "swears that of the four years he's worked with her, he's only seen her have to actually taste the wine five times to identify it"....wow! I can't imagine having that sort of pallete!

Parminder Nager

typo alert. Nagra.

Also Aliya Deri not Aliya Der.

And you might want to add this previous post link :
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001669.html

Also doesn't one of the links deserve a NSFW warning ?

are offices open on sunday? if you are working on sunday i'm assuming you have your own office....

I kinda wish they chose a better quote for Ms. Singh. The whole "tequila shots of tequila" phrase bothers me. I mean, would one to tequila shots of vodka? But this is just me picking nits. Kudos to both of them.

are offices open on sunday? if you are working on sunday i'm assuming you have your own office

Is that directed at me ? If it is : yes, grad student offices are open all the time.

But of course I was prempting the complaints that are going to come in tomorrow morning.

They're beautiful!

Amrita -
Would you be proud if your daughter grew up to be a condoleeza rice ?

i say, r.t.a., u seems to be well versed in .. um. the porn industry

Awesome work Taz. Actually when I go through magazines I kind of hope to see a desi face in there too so it's good to see that desi women are appearing more often in the media.

Expose,

thats hitting below the belt... now i wont be able to sleep.. .what if my future daughter one day tells me they are a republican, or worse, that they watch pat robertson and listen to that fat dude with the drugs problem who is parodied in the simpsons...

or worse, join the nra...

brrrrr..

Janeofalltrades (#13):

Bhairavi Desai (Taxiworkers Alliance in NYC) DJ Rekha (no introduction necessary) Sonal Shah (Indicorps and immense humanitarian work) The founders of Sakhi (established in 1989) The founders of Manavi (established in 1985) Geeta Citygirl (Salaam)

YES!

u seems to be well versed in .. um. the porn industry

i like precise facts :) so i've done research. do you want me to give you a probability distribution of DPs in american porn? (the skewness is so strong in europorn that there's no point).

[disclaimer: I hate Stern. I learned this by watching 5 minutes of Stern's T.V. show which happened to have Rain on it the one and only time I watched. She was fine. I'm not made of stone.]

Abhi, you're hilarious! :-D

2/30 isn't a bad show. ..that's what, 6, almost 7%? That's not bad representation at all.

these girls are cool. good luck to them!

I think desi girls can do well and be independent without going to porn!

amen! (exclusion for lesbian porn of course)

eewwwwwwww.....amen to the first half, but man....lesbians are cool but eewww ewwww eeewww to lesbian porn. eeeewww. gagggggggg.....ack ack...bleecccchhhh....

anyhoo...

I dont agree with Amrita's comments w.r.t Sunny. Its not that she went into porn industry for acceptance or to be different. She went and took the industry like a storm. Its about doing what she felt comfortable to do. Just a few hundred years back, devdasis were offered to temple who are later used by royalty and nobility as objects of porn. Those women didnt have a choice, whereas this woman did. I think thats what matters - the power to choose.

and what cememts it to to choose to be an ego feeder, one who is willing to throw virtue to the wind, or to be a great star who isn't juts showing off t, a and b to all willing to fancy a look.

anyhoo......is kiran ahluwalia under 30? she's awesome.....

i had some former friends who try to tell me desi girls are the worst. i gotta disagree, by far.

anyhoo, that was my 2 cents.

I kinda wish they chose a better quote for Ms. Singh

Oops! Fixed it Sri- double checked the mag, she's still cool. ;-)

a pedantic note, the term "role model" did not show up in taz's original post.

Razib's right- I don't drink. And if it were about role models, I wouldn't pick someone that was a wine taster for a living. BUT, she is a cool chick because she is breaking down barriers and doing a "desi first." Not about assimilation, but about doing something that has not been done before... and that is all I'm sayin'! ;-)

This is a fun post Taz...my husband and I always watch brit movies with a lot of interest, trying to find a brown face here and there.

In terms of the list of women, 'all moving to break down barriers', it makes sense to include Sunny Leone in the list. Who are we to judge whether she is a role model or not? I mean, if that is what she wants to do and if being in porn rocks her boat (pun intended), then more power to her for doing what she wants!

I hope that every woman out there can find the strength and will to be true to herself. Amen to that..

Pattie - that's quite the reaction! What do you find so offensive about lesbian porn in particular?

Just a few hundred years back, devdasis were offered to temple who are later used by royalty and nobility as objects of porn. Those women didnt have a choice, whereas this woman did. I think thats what matters - the power to choose.

Devadasi culture and history is my thesis supervisor's area of speciality. According to what I've heard him say - they had a great deal of choice in choosing thier sexual partners and had much more agency than being mere "objects of porn". Although it bugs me whenever brown women's sexuality automatically gets linked to these imagined examples of the overly sensual exotic "ancient" desi woman, it's this very image that a lot of female brown porn stars will play on because it sells so well. I've never heard of Sunny Leone but I have watched porn involving brown people (all of it somehow really embarassing or just plain offensive) and if you ever read the descriptive, it almost always incluedes the words "Kama Sutra" "secret" "exotic" "sex-slave" or some such reference of accessing the dark sensual sex secrets of the East. It makes me wonder about that question of "choice". Let me join Pattie in saying

eewww ewwww eeewww eeeewww. gagggggggg.....ack ack...bleecccchhhh....

there is no such thing as brown porn.

Pattie - that's quite the reaction! What do you find so offensive about lesbian porn in particular?

two women, doing the thing for all to see. if that's their thing beind closed doors, bless them. fine...more power to em. but to make this something for depraved minds...that's another. besides...this may come to a shock, but i ack all porn ( and i choose to stay as far away from it as possible....) . it's an ego stroke for those who make it, and proves lack of imagination for those who watch it. it's sick, disgusting, and shows how lame a person is to watch it.

Yeah razib - there is only sepiaporn :) Someone should squat that domain name - may be a sister concern of SM, only more gainful :))

"Devadasi culture and history is my thesis supervisor's area of speciality. According to what I've heard him say - they had a great deal of choice in choosing thier sexual partners and had much more agency than being mere "objects of porn"."

BF - You should read my comments within the context of 'initiation' of girls into becoming a devdasi. IMO, thats a deplorable tradition, no matter how nobly/nicely/kindly those women were later treated. I dont want to sound like an expert on this matter, but they are more or less used as secondary source of entertainment for higher circles of society. Men with mid life crisis invented a nice way to keep the clock ticking - heck , them devdasis of yore must be porsches/v8 mustangs of today.

-P

this may come to a shock, but i ack all porn ( and i choose to stay as far away from it as possible....) .it's an ego stroke for those who make it,

pattie: if you're referring to the women who star in porn, then you are sadly mistaken. many of them have backgrounds filled with abuse and dysfunction. you're usually an unconditional fan of all things punjabi. perhaps if sunny leone was sikh? anyone know if she is?

Just finished my quota of Robert Heinlein and here I hear about porn. *sigh*

I think Sunny Leone is punjabi.

pattie: if you're referring to the women who star in porn, then you are sadly mistaken. many of them have backgrounds filled with abuse and dysfunction. you're usually an unconditional fan of all things punjabi. perhaps if sunny leone was sikh? anyone know if she is?

it wouldn't matter if she was sikh, hindu, catholic, jewish, islam or anything else.....doesn't matter where she comes from, it's how she chooses to act. i know a singh who has chosen to involve himself with a person who has waisted her life, choosing as he put it to listen no one but the devil'. a girl who is a single mother at far too young an age, and shows her body off. alot of people have backgrounds of abuse and dysfunction...it's no good excuse to enter such a business, especially as it also brings no better to one's self. one can chose to make the better of a life that is not good, or they can screw their lives up worse. no matter who they are. hell, many people have their stories...even myself, and my darling one (who i can admit is head above me already, and i learn much from him) - we both have our stories - but it's ego and the quench for attention that leads one to the porn industry. people who choose to fight dysfunction with more dysfunction are no better than the problem itself. those who deserve credit are those who try to make themselves a positive use to society, improving it, and not smearing it with more smut and egotism.

openly gay; Miss Congeniality at the 2003 Miss India pageant

wow! thanks for posting. That makes me all warm and proud.

i like precise facts :) so i've done research. do you want me to give you a probability distribution of DPs in american porn? (the skewness is so strong in europorn that there's no point).

you want your porn?

here.....have

your porn....

I am very, very slowley seeing more and more brown faces in magazines outside of Asian Bride. Its still nothing to throw a party over, but its something. Here in Canadaland I'm heartened to see the desi faces in media, in news, etc...but fashion mads have been slow...unless its some trite exoticism fest fashion spread.

Kashish Chopra, 22 - Washington D.C. Real Estate Agent; openly gay; Miss Congeniality at the 2003 Miss India pageant. “People would tell me how they were born gay but didn’t know how to come to terms with their personal or cultural identity. But they shouldn’t be afraid of it, because they are not alone.” (p104)

cool. i'm not gay, obviously, but this girl deserves serious credit. she's standing up for herself and others against archaic thinking, and to be honest, i know many gays who are better than us straight people in cations....so all power to her!

Ok, sorry for being so horribly off-topic, but I haven't been able to get this out of my head since seeing the title of this post:

Girls - to do the dishes
Girls - to clean up my room
Girls - to do the laundry
Girls - and in the bathroom
Girls - that's all I really want is girls
Two at a time - I want girls
With new wave hairdos - I want girls
I ought to whip out my - girls, girls, girls, girls, girls!

Kitty Porn.
With each passing day Mutiny becomes more and more bizarre :-D

i would have never thought parminder to be 30! she's a great actress tho. and rasika is very cool. all right..i'll give sunny leone a drop of credit...she's still better than like pamela or anna nicole. not a whole lot better, but better. there.

Kitty Porn.
With each passing day Mutiny becomes more and more bizarre :-D

lmao...i HAD to be the rebellious one! and i will not comment further on the face fuzz - billa similarities. unless provoked.

Are you employees of Microsoft, working at Fargo?

Kitty Porn

The smut that dare not take its name :-))

Everyone likes a good rebel

Are you employees of Microsoft, working at Fargo?

"What the Christ!?"
-William H. Macy, in Fargo

Kitty Porn

The smut that dare not take its name :-))

Everyone likes a good rebel

lmao.......good.....

Not that I loved (or even liked) 'Chutney Popcorn', but the director is a 29 year old (maybe now 30) named Nisha Ganatra. Apparently 1% of the Directors Guild of America membership is female, so you can imagine how few of them are desi.

I second Cicatrix's Jhumpa Lahiri nomination and JoAT's list. If we upped that bar to 40, this list would be out of control (in the best of ways).

Prasad, R.e. #10 "Likewise, you dont tell your 14 yr old kid that it is OK to be gay; if and when the shit hits the fan, we just need to be prepared to grab the umbrella".

Actually, that seems to be exactly the age at which a person would benefit from knowing that their inclinations towards the same sex are okay. In fact, I'd say the earlier the better.

In the line before that you mentioned that you wouldn't show a 12 year old porn in an approving fashion and then went on to make the above statement. So are you equating an endorsement of porn with support for a gay adolescent?!

If so, amigo, I'm just stepping up to say that ain't cool.

If and when you have a daughter, if and when you follow through on that promise to instill confidence and independence in her, kindly keep in mind that these attributes tend to arise out of feeling loved and respected for who you are.

I don't mean to be harsh, but I also assume that you didn't mean to be ignorant...

Pattie:

I've asked before and I'll ask again. What're you smoking and where can I get some?

Kitty porn... Yeah, you definitely win the 2006 WTF Award.

I might nominate Navi Rawat, age 25 -- she might not be as luminous as Parminder for her acting chops (oh who am I kidding, Navi's acting is downright awful), but at least she's still heading in the right direction. And on shows like The OC, her acting is still pretty groundbreaking when you consider the "work" of Mischa Barton. She also had a bit part in "House of Sand & Fog"

There's also Ayesha Dharker (from the stage productions of "Bombay Dreams" and I believe "Mistress of Spices") -- she's 29.

I'd even reach to add Tina Sugandh -- isn't she under 30?

I'm hoping that eventually a list like this won't be so difficult.

Fascinating that none of us have named any desi doctor girls, engineers, techies, etc. - I know that there are brown gals out there rocking the more 'traditional' desi professions (traditional as defined by desi Amrikan standards) but I think it noteworthy that we've chosen gals whose pursuits made some of them (and their parents) pariahs on the auntie / uncle circuit (a.k.a. the Auntienet).

'Balle balle' to these bellwethers!

Amrita - Would you be proud if your daughter grew up to be a condoleeza rice ?

What a sententious question!

Personally, I dont see Sunny any different than Nandita Das (or any other actress who'd shed clothes in front camera or off camera for that matter) - since we are all aware of certain thing called casting couch.

Prasad, that is a ridiculous comparison to say an actress like Nandita Das is the equivalent to of a porn star.

Two more nominations:

Monita Rajpal and Zain Verjee of CNN.

(Although Zain is 31).

With regards to Sunny Leone's religious background, a quick Google search does produce some results where she is quoted as being a Sikh, although I'm not sure how accurate this is. However, she is definitely Punjabi.

*With regards to Sunny Leone's religious background

.....Although I don't think that has any bearing on (or relevance to) her career choice.

Kavita, thanks for making that needed comment. You articulated my thoughts far better than I could.

My pick: Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha.

Under 30: Mindy Kaling

Just beyond 30: Kiran Desai

i would have to agree with miss jane of all trades...

sonal shah is an amazing woman (founder of indicorp and a family friend)...

another gal that have i've kept tabs on since high school as an 'academic mentor' per se include reshma jagsi.. she rocks as a traditional doc who will do more than just treat cancer...

w.r.t. Sunny's religion [NSFW]:

Luke: "How do you relate to your Sikh heritage? Do you study it? Selectively observe it?"

Sunny: "It's not a part of my everyday life. There are things that are questionable, just like any religion. It's a part of me but it's not. I believe in G-d but it's hard to incorporate all the rules and regulations and beliefs into your day when you're mixing with porn. You can't really do both."

It's not clear that she sees herself as Sikh, she makes it clear that she's chosen her work over any religion.

There is a Pakistani girl from the UK doing hardcore porn in LA and some Hindu girls doing porn too - Angela Devi, Priya Rao, some other ones too. Desi porn is booming.

Oh yeah, there is a Bangladeshi Muslim girl called Jasmyne doing hardcore in LA at the moment too - do a search Razib, check her genes

Aruni,

Ain't no thang - I figured I wasn't the only one irked by that comparison.

K

Sonya Aurora Madan
Sheila Chandra

Pattie:

I've asked before and I'll ask again. What're you smoking and where can I get some?

Kitty porn... Yeah, you definitely win the 2006 WTF Award.

and i will repeat....go ask ennis....i wah my face in his dhari. ;)

Pattie:

would you be so offended with mainstream movies that depict graphic sex?

A lot of people watch and enjoy porn...so what!!! that doesn't make them sick or disgusting or lame....

come on people .... let's get a grip here and get over our "moral" selves

Razib,
Sorry bro, but there is too brown porn.

Runyolarun,

Would you mind emailing me? I couldn't find a contact link on your blog. I met Leah briefly once and have a few questions. Sorry for going off-topic (again) everyone.

Cica - I don't think you can go off topic in this thread, or at least more off topic than it has gone thus far ...

runyolarun,

are you moving to the city of the weakerthans???? i noticed that song on your blog......

kavita: -

We just have to realize that each person acts within their own sensibilities. I am glad that you told me that what said a'int cool and I respect that. Normally, I would practise silence when I gets sermonized, but this one time I want to ask people not to make extrapolatory statements like 'you endorse porn', or 'you must be OK with your daughter being in porn' and since within the same context I made a comparision with gay issue, 'you must be NOT OK with girl being gay' etc.

Just because we dont approve a pornstar being a role model, doesnt mean that they dont exist. It (desi porn) is a growing phenomenon and wishing away doesnt erase the industry altogether either - this is exactly how Indian society treats the issue of prostitution and countless women suffer because of that. 20 years down the line, if and when 20% of porn actresses in North America would comprise of desi origin, then there will be a Chatsworth research group who would say that Sunny was the one who spearheaded the trend. To give another (irksome, inane twist?) to this argument, one of my coworker's dad (who was a baptist minister) didnt want none of his sons to be either a lawyer or an insurance agent, because according to him, they are possessed by devil. Its anyone's guess as to what most desi kids opt to become these days.

Now talking about gay issues - its none of my business to approve or disapprove of, and yes, I will NOT tell my kids that it is OK to be gay; I am not wishing it away, but if I see any 'tendencies', then I will bring it up. There are certain issues that you address proactively - 'sex, drugs, etc', while certain issues you address organically - 'career, sexual orientation, etc'. Hope that clears many things.

And oh, finally - Nandita das is a good film actress and Sunny is a sucessful porn actress. I know thats where the comparision ends - they chose different lifestyles. I dont judge their choices based on my moral upbringing or artistic preferences. Thanks.

I'm glad to see Sunny Leone doing well. As Canadian punjabi male from a liberal sikh family it's good to see a punjabi girl being able to do what she wants.

nope, there isn't any brown porn.

How about Kal Penn?

PS SUNNY is hot,
i didnt know of her before this

Dini V. Rao, 28, wine consultant for Christie's, also my cousin

A whole lot of respect for Sumi Das, even if she is 34 and doesn't fall neatly into this category.

Now talking about gay issues - its none of my business to approve or disapprove of...

Now talking about slavery - its none of my business to approve or disapprove of...

I Sunny Leone can be a sikh and still have her chosen profession since we all have the five thieves to worry about, not just her

Pattie:

would you be so offended with mainstream movies that depict graphic sex?

A lot of people watch and enjoy porn...so what!!! that doesn't make them sick or disgusting or lame....

come on people .... let's get a grip here and get over our "moral" selves

pattie says 'yes'....i really don't need to see that shit. i will not delve further into the latter half of that comment. i will just go to say no wonder soeciety is as screwed up as it is.

word up pattie

word up pattie

;)

besides....i really don't need sex shoved in my face everywhere i go - damn movies, most of them are sex, go to the store, scantily clad tart kutis, you wait at a bustop...you see friggin' ads with half naked tarts on them, everywhere you go, sex is adevertised. and yes, sex has it's place, but not as we in society see it, some values are virtues are necessary. i'm not saying we all have to be complete prudes, but today's society make anyone with half a brain wnat to throw up. and i'm all for women's rights, but this scantily clad stuff is just outright disgusting. i don't need half naked girls practically poked in my face everywhere i go. i don't see half as many ads with men and such on it. and not only is society's obsession with sex sick, it's boring. even my famed love for certain fuzzy wonderful creatures is not for just the obvious allure. fun, outgoing people who aren't out to sell their bodies to you, people who show they're cool because they're smart, inventive, just brimming with creative ideas. it's just logic. sheesh. every damn movie, every damn show has to have some dumb*sses screwing, and it makes me say 'same crap, maybe with a different dumb pop song.' hell, i love some pretty raunchy brit stuff. it amazes me how many who complain about my admirations of sardars are often those who have a fit over not defending porn.

A whole lot of respect for Sumi Das, even if she is 34 and doesn't fall neatly into this category.

if we can have porn stars get credit here, sumi should shurely have her due. we won't tell anyone she's over 30. 3 cheers for her!

i will just go to say no wonder soeciety is as screwed up as it is

yes, its all due to porn, not greed, or selfishness, or avarice, or evil, or greed, or ...

if someone makes a living off of their asset, be it their body, their brawn, or their brains, then i guess its not for you to judge them. if later in life they regret it, well, its still not for you to judge. and then if it happens that millions of people on the interweb are actually spurring on the ePornCommerce, well, thats for thems to pay for and others to earn... nto all of us hve PhD's or work on wall street or madison ave...

i know someone who regrets 35 years in gov service, and another being a chemical engineer, and another being a housewife... people have regrest for doing a lot of things, why should porn be any different.

i dont think its a question of prudishness, more of wanting to have the world in ones own image...

as for sLeon, good for her. it would make sense if deshis are increasing their visibility in politics, business, acting (i am in the middle of watching Harry and Koomar Goto White Castle, i swear Kal Penn looks exactly like a brown version of the guy from scrubs), that they do so in all other facets of american/european life as well...

i am waiting on a sAsian comedian to have their own spot on comedy central, maybe russell peters (ali g does not count)...

Pattie,

A humble request:

Please use [blockquote] ... [/blockquote] instead of bolding the text you wish to quote. It's extremely harsh on the eye.

Thank you.

A request to Pattie Kaur

you got it....

I have no idea who's responding to what, everyone's dry-humping the porn-topic to death and so I'm not certain if someone has already said this... But I think all the other women in the pageant who voted Kashish Chopra Miss Congeniality deserve some credit for awarding her the title and choosing to make a collective statement of support (the award is given by fellow contestants, not judges)... Okay, you can go back to the porn.

But I think all the other women in the pageant who voted Kashish Chopra Miss Congeniality deserve some credit for awarding her the title and choosing to make a collective statement of support (the award is given by fellow contestants, not judges)...

thanks for the break, and i agree, dogday!

comedienne- vijai nathan
although i don't know if she's under 30.
good job taz on compiling this.

I swear Kal Penn looks exactly like a brown version of the guy from scrubs

OMG! It's true.

Razib,
Well, I'm either delusional and have implanted memories into my own brain, or those people were in brown-face (make that full-body brown makeup). I've seen both porn involving brown girls and white men and porn where everyone concerned was brown. Perhaps you need to better your porn-searching skillz? Sadly, I wasn't the one downloading or burning them... otherwise, I'd ask for your email address and send you some, if only in the interest of dispassionate academic settling-of-this-issue :)

#99 Brownfrown,

I think Razeeb is being tongue in cheek (Although I can not be sure)

I am not American so I do not fully understand American society.
But I would put it this way,Sex should be better left in bedrooms (i.e in private space)
Somehow, I don't think that so much obsession with sex (of graphic nature) in public space is a good idea.
I may be wrong though

Regards

Found one more tonite! On Fox 5 News they did a story on exploited restaurant workers in NYC and the spokeswoman was Saru Jayaramn Executive Director of ROCny (Restaurant Opportunities Center of NY)

OHHHHHH tongue in cheek!
Whee!

Gaurav - yeah I have to say I agree.

But I would put it this way,Sex should be better left in bedrooms (i.e in private space) Somehow, I don't think that so much obsession with sex (of graphic nature) in public space is a good idea.

gaurav, beautifully put. and additionally, it's not a matter of east vs. west thinking, or anything else like that. it's a case of logic, common sense and decency. it's like those damned cammie girls who ruin the internet. anyone with sense in their heads wouldn't allow their spouses/inomoratas to show off their bodies, or perform private acts for the indulgence of others. and even if you don't have a spouse/inomorata, it's no less lude. anyhoo....thanks for posting this.

brown face, and brown butt, and brown pu....

They're actually pink and grey, Razib.

Ennis is right. This thread is beyond salvageable.

Grey ??

I have seen pink and black (may be brown ?)but grey?

*Must watch more porn*

Gaurav (#100):

How about that - we agree on something! I don't think that sentiment has much to do with being or not being American, either.

Though I do think that information on safe sex and sexual practices should be available/accessible to anyone.

Oh dear. I shouldn't have contributed to the derailment of this thread. But yeah, if you think about it, when you mix pink, brown and black, you get pretty shades of brownish grey.

Pattie Kaur,

scantily clad tart kutis, you wait at a bustop...you see friggin' ads with half naked tarts on them,

Can I please request you not to use verbal abuse in reference to these women. A woman choosing to wear revealing clothes is not committing a malicious act and neither is it some kind of "sin", so they certainly do not deserve to be referred to in such disparaging terms, regardless of whether or not you disagree with their choice of attire (or lack of it). Using such terminology is not only inappropriate (especially for someone who claims to be serious about shortly becoming Amritdhari), it sounds worryingly similar to the kind of rants some UK-based "hijabans" come out with in reference to their more liberal Muslim sisters and Western women in general.

it's not a matter of east vs. west thinking, or anything else like that. it's a case of logic, common sense and decency.

This statement, however, is absolutely correct. Nevertheless, as Dudette said in one of her posts, it is ultimately the responsibility of the individual concerened as to whether they are making the "right" decision, both logically and ethically. Now, we know that engaging in the porn industry probably does have adverse psychological effects on many of its participants and (beyond a certain point, if taken to unhealthy extremes) on its viewers too, but these things have to be realised by the people involved. We reap what we sow, and we often have to learn our own lessons in life -- sometimes the hard way.

But the ultimate responsibility for the consequences of one's actions and their impact externally and (especially) internally lies with the person involved. You can certainly disagree with their behaviour, and to some extent you would certainly be justified, but unless someone is engaging in grossly malicious activities, they do not merit such bile on your part.

As a fellow Sikh, albeit a comparatively liberal one, I should mention that a more appropriate response by you -- at least in line with the Khalsa path you claim to be travelling on -- should be compassion for the porn actresses concerned due to the self-destructive impact their activities will undoubtedly have on many of them, not disgust and verbal abuse.

Madurai,

I never realized that we disagreed on everything.
However I don't think there is any problem with disagreement as long we are civil.
I think I have been civil and so have been you.
Social Taboos and Morals are constructs of time, location and Historical dynamics.
Therefore What I find distasteful as Indian you as American may not and vice-versa

Jai,

I hope I do not offend, but I think it is little extraneous to bring Sikhism (or for that matter any other religion) into discussion on porn.
Also while one is free to indulge in any activity (as long as permitted by law of land), I do not think Patti (or anyone else) is wrong to judge or criticize. I somehow feel disappointed with modern attitude of "Do not judge" and "Anything goes", for a society to exist the individuals must judge and discriminate.

Regards

I agree with Jai. Women's decisions must be respected. There are many reasons why a woman would wear what she does. Sometimes she is a victim. Sometimes she is proclaiming victory over gender oppression. But a naked woman and a woman under a burka can both be victims for different reasons. Similarly, a naked woman and a woman under a burka may be happier in their clothes (or lack thereof). But only those women themselves can tell you which one (btw I'm not saying it's always and either/or situation). The point is, no matter what their real situation is and how they really feel, all those women are degraded when we speak for them in this way.

Shruti,

"Women's decisions must be respected"

I do not agree with this. Tolerate yes, Respect depends

I have no compunction in discriminating

For me Mohini Bharadwaj and Kalpana Chawala are worth emulating, Sunny Leon is not.

Regards

Regards

Gaurav, I'm not opposed to expressing disagreement, but we can judge and criticize after we hear the women's own opinions, and that too, without essentializing rights and wrongs for women.
When I said I agreed with Jai, I was talking about his view on women, not Sikhism. Still, I don't want to say Sikhism doesn't have a place in a discussion like this because I'm not Sikh. Maybe we should let them decide.
And as far as disagreements with Madurai, does the model minority discussion ring a bell? There might be more, but that's what's fresh in my mind.

Shruti,

"I'm not opposed to expressing disagreement, but we can judge and criticize after we hear the women's own opinions"

You mean that we can discuss porn only after we have interviewed each and every porn nymphet, I think Porn is so often discussed that I doubt that there is any new information to be obtained.

"....and that too, without essentializing rights and wrongs for women....."

Again noone is forcing anyone but there is nothing wrong about expressing on what is right and what is wrong for men, women or Felicity

"...And as far as disagreements with Madurai, does the model minority discussion ring a bell?..."
I do remember but it was not everything.

Regards

You mean that we can discuss porn only after we have interviewed each and every porn nymphet

I think Porn is so often discussed that I doubt that there is any new information to be obtained.

Shruti

"I just mean we need a diversity of opinions from the actual subject of our discussion"

But who really is suppressing this "diversity of opinion".
To simplify,
A is free to say that Moon is made up of blue cheese.
B is free to say A is a loon.

B is being judgemental (even using ad-hominem assertion),
but he is not suppressing diversity of opinions

"And yet we keep coming back to the same ignorant conclusions"

See, even you are being judgemental!

There is no agreement because as I said Social mores change with place, time. So any debate concerning them is bound to run in circles.

As an aside all your statements about women, will you hold the same opinion about "The judges ready to unleash full measure of justice"

Regards

Pattie,

if you truly believe that our society is screwed up b/c of porn...then i guess i have nothing further to say

This post had so much potential... why's it degenerated into a discussion on porn instead of desi women who are successful?

Taz' premise on this post has been her definition of cool - not that of a career professional (none of the examples had a career. they all came under the broad entertainment category) - needless to say the 'career' is falling in disrepute - and the point is made clearer in this essay by allison wolf.

Some excerpts

Politicians, journalists and businessmen often emphasize the negative economic consequences of any barriers to female participation in the workforce, and of losing half the country's best brains to the kitchen sink. Of course they are right, and I am in no hurry to go back there myself.
But it is striking how little anyone mentions, let alone tries to quantify, the offsetting losses when women choose work over family. This is stupid.
Women today are no more homogeneous a group than men, and the service ethic that traditionally supported civil society and public service has weakened. Families remain central to the care of the old and sick, as well as raising the next generation, and yet our economy and society steer ever more educated women away from marriage or childbearing.

Farah Ahmed from Nirvana Woman Magazine. Why isn't there more stuff out there about what she's been doing? i mean, heading a real magazine for indian woman is a big deal and does tons to promote a positive image of indians! why are we wasting our time on Sunny?

This post had so much potential... why's it degenerated into a discussion on porn instead of desi women who are successful?

you have the power to change it!

What's so great about Nirvana Woman Magazine (besides being riddled with grammatical and spelling errors)?

Our Mission

In 2004, a group of professional South Asian-American women broached the idea of launching an high-fashion magazine reflecting the ultimate in South Asian infused design, beauty, and lifestyle.

Ethnic magazines were one of the fastest growing segments of the publishing industry, however, for these creative and dynamic young women, there remained a void. No single publication captured their lives – grounded in the grace and elegance of the East while moving at the trendsetting pace of the West. They also recognized that high-fashion and luxury brands were missing a platform from which to demonstrate their recognition of the value of today’s South Asian-American woman.

Nirvana Woman strives to fill that void, celebrating the modern South Asian-American Woman – her sophisticated style, progressive outlook, and desire for the ultimate that life has to offer. Nirvana Woman’s mission it to represent the glamorous, sophisticated, and confidant South Asian-American woman. [Link]

Nothing says progressive outlook like an East-West, static-dynamic, spiritual-industrial, dichotomy...

you have the power to change it!

Okay, I have an idea. How about we all name a woman from Sepia Mutiny (one of the Mutineers or one of the commenters) who is a good role model or generally worthy of admiration, and include our reasons for doing so.

That should hopefully steer this thread in a more constructive direction.

my mayn says i should not speak up in public. but he is away so i can say.. JaiJi and SiddharthBabu, you are so maynlee. i am getting the tingles. is that bad?

Shruti (#111):

Women's decisions must be respected.

Gaurav (#112):

I do not agree with this. Tolerate yes, Respect depends

After graduating from college I was sitting in on an alumni meeting of sorts during which we were trying to come up with phrases to describe the college. One that came up was something like, "A student at our college respects other people's points of view." An older alum said he didn't like the term respect here and preferred tolerate/toleration.

The problem is that for many of us, toleration has taken on a very patronizing connotation. If one encounters a view which one doesn't like/agree with, one can simply tolerate it without engaging with it. This becomes a problem when the scenario is played out between two people in different positions of power with relation to each other. Someone in a position of power simply tolerates another person's view because it's simpler that way - an, "Ok, you think what you want, let's agree to disagree and move on, I'm not really going to worry about what you have to say," sort of thing. When those who are at the losing end of these power dynamics seek to assert themselves, tolerance/toleration is no longer enough. They demand to be recognized and understood.

We never did agree upon a better word though - perhaps acceptance?

Taz' premise on this post has been her definition of cool - not that of a career professional (none of the examples had a career. they all came under the broad entertainment category)

The list was compiled of people that have good publicity (and website links)- it is very hard to find people to interview in careers I'm not familiar with all in a Sunday afternoon- which is why i left the post open ended- because I was hoping to see who people would add from there respective fields! I'm all about career professional women that are under 30, but it's so hard to find them. Well hard to find them with websites. As a side note, 80% of the board of SAAVY would fall under this category.

The list was compiled of people that have good publicity (and website links)- it is very hard to find people to interview in careers I'm not familiar with all in a Sunday afternoon- which is why i left the post open ended- because I was hoping to see who people would add from there respective fields! I'm all about career professional women that are under 30, but it's so hard to find them.

Gaurav (#110):

I think I have been civil and so have been you.

Yes, of course. My comment in #107 was tongue-in-cheek. Sorry I didn't make it clearer.

Can I please request you not to use verbal abuse in reference to these women. A woman choosing to wear revealing clothes is not committing a malicious act and neither is it some kind of "sin", so they certainly do not deserve to be referred to in such disparaging terms, regardless of whether or not you disagree with their choice of attire (or lack of it). Using such terminology is not only inappropriate (especially for someone who claims to be serious about shortly becoming Amritdhari), it sounds worryingly similar to the kind of rants some UK-based "hijabans" come out with in reference to their more liberal Muslim sisters and Western women in general.

my apologies towards my choice in verbal stance....however, a female who chooses to wear reavealing clothing is doing it for a purpose - to actract negative attention and gain for their ego. THAT is wrong. i find it curious that you comment on my terminology yet you find those who decide to be enticing perfectly fine. neither of us is perfect, fine....but would it make you happy if i were to use perfect verbal tense, and then go around in straticially placed strings when i do my marketing? i think my sardar would not be very pleased with that. and it's only certain parts of the human population who feels they wish to see females in innapropriate attire. hell, i don't need to see a sardar half naked to appreciate them. the whole point doesn't sail.... also, it doesn't mater what faith you follow, be it us sikhs, or even someone who doesn't follow any....it's common sense and tact to keep yourself properly clothed. those with maturity do not feel the need to show off everything they have to gain respect, nor do they feel the need for such attention. for some reason...ennis might be the better one to comment. and he's staying silent. we will not go into the sikhi vs. whatever thing. this is not about just us, it's about people in general.

anyhooo

I do not think Patti (or anyone else) is wrong to judge or criticize.

correction...constructive critism. but you're right there - whilst it's not right to judge or criticize without good reason, unfortunately we need to use some judgement to improve society, and try to gain mature common sense and values.

"Women's decisions must be respected"

I do not agree with this. Tolerate yes, Respect depends

it goes for both sexes...and i dunno so much about tolerating, it depends of the decision made, if it is a poor decision, it must be brought to their attention, and corrected, so that they gain better thinking where they've made a poor choice.

You mean that we can discuss porn only after we have interviewed each and every porn nymphet, I think Porn is so often discussed that I doubt that there is any new information to be obtained.

lol...seriously...good one. and many of those pron nymphets may have had tough lives, gone thru this and that, blah, blah, blah...but the whole point is they're choosing to make complete degrading persons of themselves, so the only good that would come is if they could turn their lives around and grow up. many people have gone thru hard times, look at oprah winfrey....you don't see her doing porn, just because she was given the crap stick in life. and it does indeed go for both men and women, but women are advertised more often in innapropriate ways.

Pattie,

if you truly believe that our society is screwed up b/c of porn...then i guess i have nothing further to say

quite right. except i will add that it's not JUST porn, but porn happens to be one of the big issues....we emphasize sex too much.

This post had so much potential... why's it degenerated into a discussion on porn instead of desi women who are successful?

yeah...seriously....but i like siddhartha's optomism. so, with that in mind...let's set to it!

Okay, I have an idea. How about we all name a woman from Sepia Mutiny (one of the Mutineers or one of the commenters) who is a good role model or generally worthy of admiration, and include our reasons for doing so.

That should hopefully steer this thread in a more constructive direction.

tough one....anna, janeofalltrades, sonia, nina, taz seems cool, cicatrix, chick pea, and there are many, many many more here. so many to list. but indeed a great idea for once.

also, i like how some folks have added in some more great examples. it's good to see.

tough one....anna, janeofalltrades, sonia, nina, taz seems cool, cicatrix, chick pea, and there are many, many many more here. so many to list. but indeed a great idea for once.

ooohh crow...i forgot to add my reasons....

one thing in common is that these girls give some really good insight into things with their posts/comments, and are impressive because of their intellect. each in their own way. they're also, fun, perky (in a good way), and great to hear from.

Again, I'm not South Asian. I'm a pasty, pink, white-privilege-having, Ashkenazi-descended goree. In spite of my name.

Again, I'm not South Asian. I'm a pasty, pink, white-privilege-having, Ashkenazi-descended goree. In spite of my name.

lol..issok...you don't have to be desi to deserve respect. heck, i'm a pasty creamish - pale pinky - and am part gori, so what....lol...you're cool and give great posts. that's what it's about!

You know whos my hero, my mom, although she is is older than 30, regardless of what she claims

ovaltine, that is sso cool to say. for me, it's my mum in law. besides, it's not about chronolgical age so much is it?

Nina,

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. :-)

Hey, I know Kashish Chopra, kinda. She's my buddy Shringar's little sister! What great news.

Boy, great to see a post derailed right from the get-go. What, porn is still shocking? What sort of cutting edge discussion will we see next? Women who reveal their ankles in public? Non-wool bathing suits?

But since you went there...the country (and by association, Brown Americans) doesn't suffer from an over-emphasis on sex. That's a bit like saying post-invasion Iraq suffers from an abundance of bullets.

Pattie Kaur,

i find it curious that you comment on my terminology yet you find those who decide to be enticing perfectly fine.

It's a question of degree and context. Whether or not a woman chooses to wear revealing clothing is her choice; it's obviously not "saintly" behaviour and is not going to be conducive to any spiritual benefit for her, but neither is it a malicious act and it certainly does not warrant the kind of venom you used in your previous post.

Since you have taken this into an issue of morality and, to me, my ultimate source of reference in ethical matters is Sikhism, I am basing -- and will continue to base -- my viewpoints on the teachings of the faith, even if I have a liberal intepretation of them as per my own personality and the propriety of applying them in a liberal environment. So should you, if you are as serious about your religious beliefs as you claim to be. Taking Amrit is a deadly serious business and involves a significantly higher level of idealism, integrity, and all-round saintly behaviour than is expected from an "average" person (something I am unlikely to achieve in this lifetime), so if you are going to represent yourself as a soon-to-be-Amritdhari, then I am afraid that people such as myself are going to call you on this if your behaviour and ideals wildly deviate from the noble ideals involved in being a Khalsa. I believe that you significantly "crossed the line" on multiple levels and in multiple areas in post #90.

Sikhism encourages and recommends -- please note the terminology, there are no "commandments" in this matter or dire threats of temporal or divine retribution -- women in general to dress relatively modestly if they are serious about increasing their spirituality and overall level of morality. However, woman who choose to dress more provocatively are not viciously condemned as the harlots you seem to think they are. Verbal abuse and insults are not used to "motivate" women to dress in a particular manner. Again, context and motivation are the key factors here -- as they are in most aspects of the faith. A woman living in London or New York who chooses to dress in the prevailing fashion, which involves fairly tight & revealing clothing these days, is in an entirely different environment and culture to her counterparts in Riyadh. While her attire would be inappropriate if walking down a public street in Saudi Arabia -- and indeed, her motivations for insisting on doing so could be justifiably questioned -- the two scenarios are very different and, if she is based in a more liberal environment, her manner of dress does not necessarily reflect negatively on her personality.

Not everything is black & white in matters of "right & wrong" -- some things certainly are, sure, but there is a huge grey area of neutrality in between.

Your terminology is offensive and, while revealing clothing may not be in line with the higher ideals of Sikhism (should a person decide to aspire to those ideals -- which is left up to the individual's freedom of action), what is worse is your reaction to it and your attitude towards women who choose to dress in that way. The latter is totally incompatible with the Khalsa ethos -- and may I also remind you that "false modesty" in female attire is also explicitly condemned. It's the reason why "veiling" (burqas, hijabs etc) are condemned within Sikhism, not just for Sikh women but for women of all backgrounds, and also why the onus is placed on men to control their sexual reactions to women (regardless of how provocatively the women may be dressed or behaving), rather than transferring the "blame" to the women concerned and stating they are responsible for the way men react to them, and that they should therefore dress modestly for this reason. That's not what it's all about.

If a woman decides to try to become a more saintly individual, and feels (or deduces) that her manner of dress affects this, she will dress more modestly automatically -- it will be an intuitive, natural process for her. Launching into aggressive, over-the-top personal attacks against provocatively-dressed women is a totally counter-productive way to go about things -- it should not be such a big deal to you and should not bother you so much, regardless of the fact that you may be right in some cases, and certainly not to the extent that it triggers the kind of outburst in post #90.

but would it make you happy if i were to use perfect verbal tense, and then go around in straticially placed strings when i do my marketing?

I would feel that it's not the most intelligent or appropriate way to dress in that situation, but beyond that I would feel that it's none of my business and it's your own responsibility to deal with the consequences of your actions.

hell, i don't need to see a sardar half naked to appreciate them.

That's good, but as a married woman you should not be "appreciating" any men apart from your husband at all, sardar or otherwise, and you certainly shouldn't be making such statements on a public discussion forum which is visited by hundreds of thousands of complete strangers every month. The occasional light-hearted comment or banter is fine, but when it becomes a regular, repeated, frequent, almost daily event, again I think this is seriously crossing the line. If you were unmarried or not in a steady relationship then it would be a different matter. However, since you claim to be serious about taking Amrit, then it does raise questions about the moral propriety of such behaviour, certainly if you deem it appropriate for you to vociferously condemn women on the "morality" of their attire.

But, as mentioned before, such things are none of my business, and we all have to take personal responsibility for our actions, for better or for worse.

That's good, but as a married woman you should not be "appreciating" any men apart from your husband at all

Hey hey now - even us married folk are allowed to look at the menu, just not order.

Sonia,

even us married folk are allowed to look at the menu, just not order.

Perhaps, but not if one is seriously claiming to shortly be going down the Amritdhari route, and it probably isn't a good idea for one to simultaneously berate other women on the alleged "immorality" of their manner of dress and their perceived motivations for dressing that way.

what about sania mirza? or Karnam Malleshwari?

thank you for my weekly dose of porn, tolerance of porn, and kitty porn discussion

Thanks a lot Jai, for making that stand. I really admire Pattie's resolve and religious beliefs but the criticism was getting a little out of hand. One man's meat is another man's poison and you put it in a very good way.

It's wonderful how humans are so multi faceted. One woman probably gets her kicks from anjoying her sexuality and being bold about it and another probably finds her salvation in modesty and religious faith. To each his own. The thing to remember is that if you don't like it, turn your face away.

Jai and everyone else - I completely understand what you're saying about how we should not judge those who choose to dress provocatively and what not. However, I can relate to what Pattie is trying to convey. I fear raising my future children in a society where 12 year olds are cruising the mall wearing tube tops and itty bitty skirts and it's considered completely normal. I also don't want my daughters to think it's "cool" to be a porn star like Sunny Leone.

Jai ~ As Sikhs, we should all be on the path to becoming Amritdhari .. regardless of how far along (or not) we are. I don't think it's fair of you to keep bringing up Pattie's personal path with Sikhi when it comes to her commenting on a public blog. If you see her smoking and drinking in a club .. give it to her. But spare her when she's just having some fun expressing her opinions - like we all are.

Breaking the rules on age ever so slightly, a la Cicatrix, I nominate Shaheen Sheik. She's a total rockstar -- literally!

Msichana,

Thank you for your kind words -- greatly appreciated. I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say.

Sonia,

I fear raising my future children in a society where 12 year olds are cruising the mall wearing tube tops and itty bitty skirts and it's considered completely normal.

Believe me, I completely agree with you here. However.....

I don't think it's fair of you to keep bringing up Pattie's personal path with Sikhi when it comes to her commenting on a public blog. If you see her smoking and drinking in a club .. give it to her. But spare her when she's just having some fun expressing her opinions - like we all are.

I brought it up because I have a problem with people demonstrating double-standards, especially if it involves aggression targetted at undeserving third-parties (I have been restraining myself from using the word "hypocrisy" because I do not wish to turn this thread into one of the usual flame wars). I do not think women deserve to be addressed in the kind of language that Pattie has used, especially in this part of the world and in this day and age. I also think this kind of attitude regarding female attire is incompatible with the principles of Sikhism, and would not have mentioned it were it not for the fact that Pattie herself often emphasises her religious affiliation and has mentioned her Amritdhari aspirations.

It is not the basic principle of objecting to the increasing (and in many cases, inappropriate) sexualisation of some aspects of our society and the media which I have a problem with -- and as mentioned earlier, I happen to agree with these concerns -- but the tone in which this objection was voiced, the highly abusive language which has been used, and the "targets" towards whom the vitriol has been directed.

As far as I am concerned, such behaviour is far worse than (for example) "smoking & drinking in a club" because the former is unwarranted, excessive aggression towards individuals who do not deserve it. Strongly condemning deliberately malicious actions on the part of another person by using firm language is one thing -- and even then, one should exercise self-restraint for the sake of one's own mental/emotional self-discipline, to prevent the situation from being unnecessarily inflamed, to prevent one's own actions from being driven by corrupt motivations (ego-driven self-righteousness, sadism etc), and in order to achieve a positive outcome to the situation -- but the issue of grown women's attire, especially in the West, does not warrant such an indignant response. I can understand an orthodox Muslim reacting in that way, or some of the more conservative members of the older desi generation, but not someone who has grown up in the West or someone who has really understood the basics of Sikhism in such matters (and how to react to them).

However, I can relate to what Pattie is trying to convey. I fear raising my future children in a society where 12 year olds are cruising the mall wearing tube tops and itty bitty skirts and it's considered completely normal. I also don't want my daughters to think it's "cool" to be a porn star like Sunny Leone.

Sonia amen to that. But you have to have faith in yourself. My parents were about as conservative as any average Indian parent and I grew up in NYC so I'm sure it was doubly hard and for a long time I'm sure they believed they failed in imbibing their values in me. They haven't. You have to have faith that like you your children will also turn out just fine.

I sincerely appreciate conservative values but I could care less to indulge in a discussion with anyone about what is right or wrong with it. It wasn't till I turned 30 that I understood the value of the phrase "...because we are Indian". And I no longer feel embarrassed about it. I have no problem saying that to someone anymore and once upon a time thought it was the most horrid thing ever.

Struggles with a changing society have been always been omnipresent all thru history. Have faith in your own self that you will raise your children right.

Struggles with a changing society have been always been omnipresent all thru history. Have faith in your own self that you will raise your children right.

Nice one Jane.

Sonia, I don't know about your folks but mine grew up when being a hippie was cool and free love was the mantra for everything. I am sure that their exposure to uninhibited sex and drugs etc is similar to the fear you have of what you see happening to kids nowadays. My granny is uneducated and probably didn't know about half the shenanigans that my dad might have been a part of while growing up, but in the end, he turned out just fine. It all amounts to personal choice.

I will say this though, sometimes, exposure is good. A sheltered and puritan upbringing is not always the best thing to give to your children. They need to know why a certain activity or place etc is bad. I believe in empowering their judgement instead of saying, 'it's bad for you and you must listen'. Letting your children reason out between what is good and not is way more effective then fearing what is outside and keeping them from it.

As Jane said, have faith in yourself and do the best you can. :-)

I will say this though, sometimes, exposure is good. A sheltered and puritan upbringing is not always the best thing to give to your children. They need to know why a certain activity or place etc is bad. I believe in empowering their judgement instead of saying, 'it's bad for you and you must listen'. Letting your children reason out between what is good and not is way more effective then fearing what is outside and keeping them from it.

Exactly. I'm sure we've all seen what has happened to some desis from our various social circles who come from typically sheltered backgrounds, and then (usually at university, or at some point after they start working in the "real world") they are subsequently exposed to various people and situations where the parental restraint is no longer present. People can really go off the rails and self-destruct, big-time.

Madurai Vivekan, I fail to see the error in the Nirvana exerpt you quoted. The dash "--" is read as "that are" as in "their lives that are grounded in..."

re: my #122

"confidant"

I can't find the grammatical error I'd found earlier, but the syntax really wasn't the point of my comment.

I was wondering why Nirvana Woman Magazine should be considered so great when it makes those East-West divisions (besides my personal problems with flaunting wealth; a cursory glance also reveals an unhealthy dose of Fair & Lovely).

JOaT and Msichana ~ Thanks for your comments and your assurance that I'll survive the child-raising process =) What can I say, it freaks me out sometimes! But you are both right - society can only affect you as much as you let it. And, hopefully, we'll have the strength to give our children the freedom to experience life, but still be able to protect them.

Jai ~ You're right, and I understand where you're coming from. But I don't think you'll be able to change a person when all you know about them is what they write in comments on a blog. I think Pattie just reacts more strongly than most of us who double check our comments before clicking on the Post button. All her comments on this thread were based on her reaction towards porn - and I don't think that's a problem. Some people are for it, some people are against it - and that's not going to change. I think a lot of her comments were just made because she was heated about that issue. Let's drop it?

Gaurav in #116: I have an answer for you that will only take us in circles, so I'll hold out on it. But I was wondering what "The judges ready to unleash full measure of justice" is supposed to mean?

Madurai in #125: point taken, thanks :)

What you wear tells other people A LOT about the type of person you are and HOW you want others to perceive you. So it is inevitable that you will be judged by or treated as per your clothes. I really cannot see any reason why a woman (or man) would wear sexually provocative clothes OTHER than to get sexual and/or preferential attention. While being abusive is always wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with forming preconceptions about a person by what they wear.

If a woman wore something that shows an unnecessary amount of cleavage, I cannot help but think of her as being promiscuous or attention seeking, just as I couldn't help thinking that a man wearing a T-shirt with a nazi swastika symbol as being a racist.

Bengali (#152)

Let me add a caveat,

What is provocative and what is not changes with times. Even attitude to sex is a function of social configuration.

About swastika, it is not neccessarily a racist symbol, depending on context.

Regards

What is provocative and what is not changes with times. Even attitude to sex is a function of social configuration.

About swastika, it is not neccessarily a racist symbol, depending on context.

(An Indian Brahmin colleague of mine has a picture of the hindu swastika on his wall in the office; the first time I saw it, it took a couple of seconds to sink in that this was not an expression of any racist sentiment)

What you wear tells other people A LOT about the type of person you are and HOW you want others to perceive you. So it is inevitable that you will be judged by or treated as per your clothes. I really cannot see any reason why a woman (or man) would wear sexually provocative clothes OTHER than to get sexual and/or preferential attention. While being abusive is always wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with forming preconceptions about a person by what they wear.

If a woman wore something that shows an unnecessary amount of cleavage, I cannot help but think of her as being promiscuous or attention seeking, just as I couldn't help thinking that a man wearing a T-shirt with a nazi swastika symbol as being a racist.

excellently put. actually, provativeness and not provacative does not change, it is how we choose to see it....which isn't always a good thing. usually isn't a good thing.

holy bats,people are awake late... unless ur on another time zone... or continent...

agree with above posters, yes, what one wears says somewhat of what one 'may' be, but in no way or form decisively. what one may be is a trend follower, i.e. low cut jeans, even with stomach hanging out, or those tiny jackets women are wearing these days, like the laundry ate the other half, for some, it is followign a trend, and mighty nice they look, for others, it is 'look at my belly button'. u can ttell, unles su have mutant psychic powers.

this may go also with the way one acts. i knew of some very prudishly dressed and extremely well mannered gals in school who probably should not have been approached without a hazmat suit, they gots around, a few times...

50+ postings ago, someone, maybe me, said its upto the individual how or what they do and how or what they present themselves as. 35 posts later perhaps someone said societal norms change, as do individual attitudes. moreover, personal preferences. despite standing up to a persons right to do what they want with their own lives as long as it doesnt affect others, i for one, though she be hot, wouldnt invite sunny leone to have tea with dad...

agree with above posters, yes, what one wears says somewhat of what one 'may' be, but in no way or form decisively. what one may be is a trend follower, i.e. low cut jeans, even with stomach hanging out, or those tiny jackets women are wearing these days, like the laundry ate the other half, for some, it is followign a trend, and mighty nice they look, for others, it is 'look at my belly button'. u can ttell, unles su have mutant psychic powers.

a person chooses wether or not to follow a trend, or be their own person. the clothes mosnter doesn't come up to you, and shove the day's outfit on you. you make your own choice of how you wish to be percieved.

i for one, though she be hot, wouldnt invite sunny leone to have tea with dad...

That might annoy your dad ;)

holy bats,people are awake late... unless ur on another time zone... or continent...

Manish Vij on April 6, 2006 04:32 AM · Direct link

Hehe. It will be funny if the timing of Manish's posts dont' actually change just b/c he's half a world away from his normal time zone. :D

what one wears says somewhat of what one 'may' be, but in no way or form decisively. what one may be is a trend follower

Exactly. These days it's just a matter of fashion, not necessarily a reflection on the alleged lack of "morals" of the wearer.

While being abusive is always wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with forming preconceptions about a person by what they wear.

Beyond a certain point, it's a mistake to make assumptions about people based on limited information, especially if their attire is mostly a matter of prevailing fashion trends rather than some kind of statement of "excessive availability" on their part. Frankly, I'm surprised to be hearing some of the views which have been posted on this thread, considering this is 2006 and most of us live in the West.

Here's a question for those of you who disagree. It's very common these days for Western women (yes, including huge numbers of younger South Asian women, at least here in the UK) to wear a bikini when visiting the beach in a tropical destination. Do you think that all the women involved are automatically "promiscuous sluts" who deserve to be condemned ?

While being abusive is always wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with forming preconceptions about a person by what they wear.

Not to step on toes here but by forming these preconceptions and prejudging people because of their attire, wouldn't we be as ignorant as the people who think that every brown person who is wearing a turban is a terrorist? If every person made these preconceptions, everyone who covers up, has facial hair, wears a head scarf, wears pyjama bottoms with a dress etc etc would be on a hate list.

If a woman wore something that shows an unnecessary amount of cleavage, I cannot help but think of her as being promiscuous or attention seeking, just as I couldn't help thinking that a man wearing a T-shirt with a nazi swastika symbol as being a racist.

Who is to judge what is necessary and what isn't? I have seen very modestly clad women being eye balled because certain parts of their anatomy are obvious. Heck, I have seen men leering at women breast feeding their kids!

I don't propose covering up or baring all or whatever it is that rocks anyone's boat. My take is based on the mighty 'live and let live'. If someone wants to sh!t in the backyward, they can do so, as long as it's not in mine. I have the capacity to turn my face and enrich my life in a different way if something is offensive. What might be my version of proper attire, behaviour etc might not hold true for someone else. In that case, maturity is in not judging someone else. Do your thing and move on.

Do not judge someone by their clothing. Yes, we do choose what we wear, while we cannot choose our skin colour - but it is still a very ignorant judgement to deem someone "promiscuous" or a "terrorist" or whatever because of their attire. In some cases, the anatomy itself, if obvious or ample, will automatically make any clothing seem more seductive - it ain't the wearer's fault. At a place I used to work, two girls had the same shirt: one woman had more cleavage than the other (though the shirt was her size)- she was instructed to go home and change, while the manager did not take notice of the other girl at all!

Sure, we could all wear potato sacks, but that's not exactly flattering either. Besides the point, I'm pretty sure some men would leer even if all women wore garbage bags!

As far as the "attention-seeking" accusation - when was that a crime? I can think of alot more heinous crimes to focus my "attention" on.......

Besides the point, I'm pretty sure some men would leer even if all women wore garbage bags!

Thanks for speaking up- I was getting worried about how the line of conversation had turned.

Case in point. The first time I was violated in public, (I had my ass grabbed and I turned around and I didn't know who did it) I was in head to toe burka (as close to potato sack as possible), holding my little sister's hand. I was living in Saudi Arabia, this happened in Riyadh, I was in a pet store looking at fish. I was TWELVE.

Anyone who beleives this line of thought needs to go live in Saudi Arabia and understand it's never about what you are actually wearing, but if you are a female, you will get judged. Despite potato sack clothes. But they would say that I was being promiscuous because I had a few strands of hair peaking out. and we know how silly that is.

"I will say this though, sometimes, exposure is good. A sheltered and puritan upbringing is not always the best thing to give to your children. They need to know why a certain activity or place etc is bad. I believe in empowering their judgement instead of saying, 'it's bad for you and you must listen'. Letting your children reason out between what is good and not is way more effective then fearing what is outside and keeping them from it."

Well put Mschiana. I just wanted to add that it's impossible to protect your children 100% of the time. Sure, you could be restrictive and never let them out of the house, but sooner or later, this can and usually does backfire. To give them growth and coping skills, you have to be able to give them some freedom - but not without a thorough discussion (on a regular basis) about consequences, and some role-playing/scenario; i.e. what would you do if a boy offers you a drink? etc etc. If you have an open-honest discussion with your kids, they'll be better prepared for life, and not to mention, you'll have a better relationship with them. It's also really important to trust your kids, "have faith" as someone else put it. Constantly moralizing, accusing, and fearing only makes your kids more insecure with themselves. And insecurity can lead to bad decisions.

I know that south asian parents only want the best for their children, and there are demons out there; whether it be assault, sexual assault, rape..... but over-protectiveness, fear-mongering, lack of communication and shame, can only do your children good for so long. Sooner or later, they will be put in a situation where they may have to make a decision that could impact their safety. They need social and life skills that are learned in childhood and adoloscence to deal with such scenarios. You've got to have faith in your ability to mentor and faith in your children to do the right thing.

I really hope that the parents out there take this advice to heart. I am not a parent, but these are pretty much quotes from my own parents who have mentioned they wish they could go back and do things a little differently. It's a common saying that "kids don't come with a handbook", but there are now several great parenting books and educational programs to help you deal. The one thing I think is missing is a book for south asian parents... that would be a great resource. I've had enough of the "hush-hush" factor in the desi community - people don't talk about their problems and issues. That's got to change, but a book would be a great start.

Thank You Taz!!!

I didn't want to get sucked back into this thread, and could not believe the direction this thread was taking considering the comments that were being made.

A woman who shows too much cleavage is labeled as promiscuous....we're getting into very dangerous territory here...especially if you have to precede your opinion with phrases like "while being abusive is always wrong"

To further my point in #164, which is so off topic, but I've gotta finish.....

Furthermore, a good open and honest relationship with your kids ensures that if they ever do find themselves in an unsafe situation, they will call you first! Wouldn't you want your kids to call you first? I hope the answer is yes.... If they feel ashamed or guilty, they may not call their parents for help, and this could put them in a compromising situation.

Lastly, shit happens, and we have to move on and live life. Why not give your kids the opportunity to cope with gawdawful stuff that happens to them by being supportive, open, rather than accusatory, or shameful? Depression can result if a person feels isolated, and this can be very, very debalitating.... can last many years into adulthood. I've seen it happen to too many people I love dearly.

I apologize for the rant, but I really feel it's important for South Asian parents to communicate more about such issues with their kids and with each other. I hope this is not perceived as a lecture - I am really genuinely concerned about the safety and security of our kids..... This post has brought out my yet to be tested maternal instincts... to tie all this in to the original posting, I'm going to list myself under great women under 30 ;) just kidding!

well, metric ang, u points are VALID, and well taken. if we, atleast me, could go back in time and force said patar/matar to read said good pts, ah, well, we'ed, i'd be a diff person, sort of, today. dad beleieved in exactly the sort of thning mentioned, teaching us responsibility, part of which is for us to f*&# up, and then learn from our mistakes... but mater, believed in the IRON fist, i think our time in thatchers england had too much impact on her, and the kids should be told (read forced) to do whats good for them.

i pretty much ignored the mater..heh heh..

metric ang, as a parent, who happens to be sA, if frightens me to a silly stupour any time i think how my kid will fare int he world, very diff from the one i grew up in, where the parents were a little extra overprotective, despites dads solid thinking... due to what he did and where we were. and the kid is less than a year.

i am constantly amazed at SM's posts, that evolve over the rantings wishes arguments and disagreements of commnetors where sometimes i forget what we started with in the first place.. like a visit to local joe spot with buds... =)

So how should someone be 'perceived'?

(I'm not going to use the word 'judge' anymore because I don't judge people. If someone IS promiscuous, I don't think they are a bad person. My best friend - or as I called her, my best fiend - at university had more boyfriends and one night stands then Samantha in Sex and the City and she (my friend) is one the most kind hearted and generous souls on the planet)

Everyone agrees that a person should be perceived by their actions. What you wear is an action which tells others a lot about your personality. First impressions are based on the exterior - clothes, hair style, body language, it is Psych 101, guys. I really have no idea why people are getting upset by this assertion.

First impression is precisely why you dress nicely and neatly when you go to a job interview.

Anyhow, there's nothing wrong with being promiscuous, as a result there should be nothing wrong with thinking that someone is promiscuous. In a society, if it is okay and even COOL for men to be promisuous it should be same for women. It's a lifestyle choice. And frankly, I find it worrying that so many people on this board still think that being a promiscuous woman is inherently a bad thing.

There is a difference between 'perceiving' and 'judging' - I was wrong to use the word 'judge' in my first post.

When I see a woman in a burkha/hijab - I think "she's a practising muslim". I DON'T think "she's a narrow minded religious zealot who is bashed at home and married her cousin, who is a terrist".

When I see a girl in a private school uniform - I think "she goes to so and so private school she may be from a wealthy family" - I DON'T think "she's a snotty and snobby little rich bitch"

When I see a middle aged guy in a red convertible checking out everything in a skirt - I think "mid-life crisis" - I DON'T think "sick minded pervert".

Bikinis are different - they're at the beach and going for a swim. It's the socially appropriate attire to wear in that particular scenario.

Mschiana (161#)

"Not to step on toes here but by forming these preconceptions and prejudging people because of their attire, wouldn't we be as ignorant as the people who think that every brown person who is wearing a turban is a terrorist?
"

No! For the reason that Turban (or Dastar or Safa or Hijab) is a mark of religious/cultural identity.

Attire indicates personal choice. It is not unfair to judge (or perceive or discern or recken or whatever)
on the basis of personal choice.

Here I must say that I don't care about what one wears (or does not wear). I usually shrug off/roll my eyes/raise my eyebrow depending on the situation.
What I am speaking against is "You can't judge people".

Freedom doesnot meant immunity from criticism

Regards

"there's nothing wrong with black people, some of my best friends are black" :-)

Bikinis are different - they're at the beach and going for a swim. It's the socially appropriate attire to wear in that particular scenario.

Not everyone who goes to the beach wearing such attire is planning to "go for a swim." Many women just want to soak up the sun (or get a tan, depending on their ethnic background).

However, they are still wearing clothes which render them almost naked in front of large numbers of complete strangers. Should they be condemned (especially if they are from a South Asian background), and assumptions made about their supposed promiscuity and desire for attention ?

(Before anyone lynches me, please bear in mind that I am playing Devil's Advocate here, as indicated by my previous posts on this thread which should give a more accurate picture of my "real" viewpoint in such matters).

this is an interesting discussion...Pattie, I wonder how you would feel walking around some parts of Kenya where women are completely bare chested? Breasts are not considered sexual (for some tribes), and so these otherwise deeply conservative societies who are not liberal when it comes to women's rights, don't consider it inappropriate to have boobs hanging out...

It all comes down to what society/culture/individuals consider sexual. it used to be ankles, in some culture showing hair or even your eyes is considered too much...everyone draws the line they are comfortable with. I am highly uncomfortable in a bikini and shorts (the short kind) and mini skirts. I probably would not let my daughter wear them.

also pet peeve because I'm a HUGE proponent of it: why are American, in your face with victoria secret ads and such, so prudish about breasfeeding? I was talking to a couple on the plane who were apologizing profusely because their kid needed a feed and the woman didn't have any pre-pumped milk. I told them I was cool with it, besides the woman was soooooo well covered and discreet about it, but apparently they had had major problems before in public areas (like malls, even when the woman choose a quiet spot). I mean I don't get it, if most people would not take their meals and go to the public loo to eat them, why do you expect women and their especially vulnerable to infection infants to go to the restrooms to breastfeed?

Pattie, I wonder how you would feel walking around some parts of Kenya where women are completely bare chested?

i can't believe we're STILL on this topic...ok..i feel no different about it as i do anywhere else, but they are in a diferent situation than that of britney spears or such, so i have to give them a bit of slack, as long as i don't have to look at them. and i prefer not to have to see them, or have breats and other privvie bits practically shoved in my face where i go. but you do have a point -

It all comes down to what society/culture/individuals consider sexual.

first off, i find VS ads sickening. and second of all, maybe i could go give my dollface a nice one right in the mall, as long as we're descreetly covered. but it does perplex me too. also, i don't mind women, as long as they are covered. and it seems scanilty clad women show up more often than men, not that men should be scantily clad either...i prfer seeing a nice, vute man fully covered, than showing off muscles.

However, they are still wearing clothes which render them almost naked in front of large numbers of complete strangers.

i think sunny leone and parminder nagra make hindu,muslim,sikh all indian religion look bad.because in all three religions exposing body is not allowed.i really got offended when they say there indian.i even dont like malika sherawat.i dont know why people in india let her come in movies.
bye tc
jai shree sai baba
jai shree krishna

biju - please tell me ur kidding. someone please tell me that was a comment made just to spark debate. that's just hysterical!!!

Kashish is awesome; she should be very proud of herself. I would love to meet her. I'm married, but as I'm mostly lesbian, I have to also admit that I think she's really sexy too!

well...i don't know sunny leone personally so i don't have the certain rights to comment on her...but its all abour karma and dharma. we should not worry ourselves because she has chosen her path and intertwined her decision with destiny. however, I am saddened to see the culture and tradition of our homeland, India, stomped on by way of assimilation and confusion.I only feel remorse for how saddened and hurt the hearts of the Indian borne MR. and Mrs.Leone are...(i speculate that they are hurt because they urge Sunny to discontinue her work...forgive me if i am mistaken)

Jai Shri Ram