this is a great post ennis - you've put your finger on something that's felt but not articulated. I think cultural practices (such as folk dances) can become more understood and appreciated if they are shared with non-members of the cultural group...

On another note, not only does this happen with desis/non-desis but also within different desi groups. It used to be considered odd if a north indian studied bharatnatyam or odissi, or a south indian kathak, but several accomplished dancers broke those barriers by excelling in those dances...

In another sense, the english language is a great example of having survived and evolved despite being totally "mutated" from its original syntax and grammar in various regions...and its all the better for it...as compared to french and L'academie francaise which imposes such stringent rules on how french should be spoken and approves/disproves changes and new developments - as a result there are less and less people speaking french or choosing to learn french than other languages than what was perhaps the potential of the language, say 100 years ago...

i used to get worked up about preserving culture (as i did on this blog). but i saw those pictures and i was like...cool. which was a pretty pleasant reaction. i've actually been annoyed with having to "defend" a culture rather than just dance to it. i think maybe it has to do with whether one sees culture as threatened. For me, since I was first introduced to Punjabi culture, it was very much in the context of struggle for justice and i took that to be a struggle for the "authentic" performance of culture.

More and more I understand that there is no "authentic". I still believe there are just and unjust ways of participating in any culture, but that's not to do with authenticity

I think its a really good place for Bhangra culture, which is not even solely Punjabi, that people of many ethnicities are doing it. If anything, if you wanted to make the arguement, you might say that there can be no "authentic" Bhangra without West Indian Reggae music.

It's very ironic that the style of music that people --- including myself -- have lauded as undoubtadely Punjabi is very immersed in other cultures. Without Bally Sagoo and others using beats from Reggae and Hip Hop, there's a question as to if Diaspora Bhangra would have "made it". Truly thats a good lesson to learn. And it also goes all the way to the Syncretic culture of Punjab itself. More and more I wonder if there is anything authentic about anything

awesome post! and no you're not a dork.....

Pattie -
Oh yes I am. Trust me, Irish and Israeli folk dances are fun, but very dorky.

Sahej -
It's also limiting to Punjabi culture to define itself solely by Bhangra. There was an urban Punjabi culture as well, one about poetry and literature. It wasn't all plowing the field, harvesting the grain and dancing.

Ennis,

Very much agree. I think thats something that should get more play as well....the poetry and literature aspect. Even in the rural Punjab bhangra dancing wasn't always a central part of the culture all the time. I also think Punjabi culture would flower again if the borders opened up

not to divert this thread, rather my question is an aside to anyone (ennis?) who might know more about this....the remark about opening up the borders made me realize that one doesnt hear as much in the mainstream media about the trials and pains of partition on the punjabi community in quite the same way as you do about the two koreas...and separations of both communities happened around the same time, circa 50-60 years ago...so, I was wondering if anyone would know if this issue has received much attention because I think it might be a quite important one. On the other hand, I might just be totally unaware of a lot of stuff that is out there, since I'm not punjabi, but just an interested brown person :)

The first picture from the Bhangra Blowout gig, with the guddi in pink, is a wicked photo - she is burning up the floor!

The first picture from the Bhangra Blowout gig, with the guddi in pink, is a wicked photo - she is burning up the floor!

word, those eyes man, on fire

Cool!!!

At a recent desi wedding a couple where the guy was white performed a dance to "Yeh kudia" from Dilwale and OMG we were all just blown away. He was fantastic and even mouthed the words while he was dancing. After the dance was over they went over to hug her parents and he even bent down and touched their feet.

I recently taught two (otherwise guidos) at work how to make chicken tikka masala (the short cut ready made paste version) and they were so excited. Apparently they've gone out on their own now and expanded their collection of spices and are experimenting more.

I'm never surprised but always amazed at the cultural openness I have experienced in NYC and it's always heartwarming. I've been in my share of bridesmaid dresses and am even a godmother. It's what makes this a wonderful melting pot albeit sometimes being a rotten apple :-)

For once, I agree with Pattie. =]

She looked amazing in that photo. Here's a very faint video of the Penn State Team, from last year.

Yes, I’m better at dancing Bhangra than most non-desis

Ennis, I challenge you to a bhangra-off

i went to my first BB in 2000 and there were non-desi dancers then, too, and they were FANTASTIC. they were also impossible to miss-- each team was announced visually on giant video screens where all team members' names were listed. i can't remember which school...it might have been yale, but their one unbrown dancer was easily the best on stage. it was beautiful to see and even better to feel.

Great topic and post, Ennis! I was complaining to my roommate once (he's Japanese-American, a Yoga instructor) how Americans appropriate Indian things like Yoga without respecting their Indianness and so on... I pretty much had to shut up when he pointed out I could be accused of doing the same thing with Salsa. So that comparison actually hits home with me!

I used to be a little cringey when I first got to the US and saw non-Indians doing Indian stuff like dancing bhangra at local SAS parties and so on...but now I'm cool with it. It's perfectly fine to take things from another culture to play with as long as the intention is respectful, I think.

No, but I'd still not condone anything from the Happy Hippie store!

Love the PSU video -- I was on one of the earlier PSU teams to go to BB in 2000 and we had a non-desi on our team who kicked mucho kundi. All about spreading the love.

One of the more peculiar experiences I had in the past year was being at a club in Lagos (Nigeria) and seeing a stage full of Nigerians doing a dance routine from Kabhi Khushi Khabie Gham.

I think I stood there for a full minute with my mouth open.

One of the more peculiar experiences I had in the past year was being at a club in Lagos (Nigeria) and seeing a stage full of Nigerians doing a dance routine from Kabhi Khushi Khabie Gham.

I think I stood there for a full minute with my mouth open.

Until you've seen a room full of sardarji's grooving to Fela Kuti as I poured another round of whiskies for my uncles at my flat in London when I was a student, you havent seen anything my friend ;-)

Pattie - Oh yes I am. Trust me, Irish and Israeli folk dances are fun, but very dorky.

they're on the same level as polkas. not dorky at all. actually, it's cool that you've such a broad mind, and are willing to try things from other. you can't be a dork just for dances. i know some of the coolest people who do irish dances...and isreali folk dances just sound amazing. dorky are people who call each other mushy and and stuff when they're both far more drugged up than i'll ever seem.

For once, I agree with Pattie. =]

woohhoo! kewl.

Until you've seen a room full of sardarji's grooving to Fela Kuti as I poured another round of whiskies for my uncles at my flat in London when I was a student, you havent seen anything my friend ;-)

is that an invite?

Yes, I’m better at dancing Bhangra than most non-desis

Ennis, I challenge you to a bhangra-off

Sonia -
Is that your new diet and exercise plan ;) I'll concede up front - I was never on a team, so I don't have the skills for it. I'm a recreational dancer, not a pro like yourself ;)

Until you've seen a room full of sardarji's grooving to Fela Kuti as I poured another round of whiskies for my uncles at my flat in London when I was a student, you havent seen anything my friend ;-)

Water, it no get enemy
Balle Balle
Water, it no get enemy
Hareepa

I've never known anybody who didn't like Fela. And dancing to Fela is even easier than dancing Bhangra ;)

And the Chinese are following suit.

Until you've seen a room full of sardarji's grooving to Fela Kuti as I poured another round of whiskies for my uncles at my flat in London when I was a student, you havent seen anything my friend ;-)

Fantastic. Long live the Indo-Nigerian Alliance.

fela is awesome!

And the Chinese are following suit.

love it!

and I cringe equally when I see most non-Punjabi desis dancing Bhangra

Not to toot my own Gujarati horn, but I was actually on GW's Bhangra Blowout winning team in 1999. Yeah, I took it back to the 90's. I actually met my fiance, also Gujarati, when we were on that team.

Is that your new diet and exercise plan ;)

Thanks for sharing my workout woes with all the SM'ers =) Now if all of you could leave your secret weight loss tips as well, that would be great :)

Hey Ennis, thanks for the shoutout!

The word "appropriate" (the verb, not the adjective) is a loaded one. It's all perception, honestly. Some people can't look past the skin color and will automatically discredit (or hire!) me just because I'm white. It's happened both ways. And I've certainly been known to look down on Those Girls(tm) who are all like "OMG you sing Hindu songs! I love yoga! I want to marry an Indian boy! Kama Sutra! Ayurveda! and belly dancing." .. mainly because I hate that just by looking at me, people will assume that is what I am.

I sing on a semi-regular basis at events around Dallas. (This Friday, North Lake College, 4pm, show is free...ahem ;>) But I digress. The question always gets asked, "so why do you like Indian culture so much?" That's the wrong question, because it was never about that and always about the music, but it is just assumed that because I'm white, I must have some perverse exotic fascination with a culture that is not my own... but I don't go home to a different world. This IS my world - how I grew up, my mostly-desi circle of friends, post-undergrad experiences... past and present all rolled up into one. I didn't go looking for this... it just happened. That is the hardest thing to explain to people.

People don't know what to do with you when you live on the lines we draw between cultures. But I think it's getting better... people on all sides becoming more inclusive and understanding that those lines are arbitrary in so many ways. Not all ways, but more and more every day.

Stereotypes are usually grounded in reality, but they don't take into account the fact that other people live very big lives just like you. I don't feel 'classifiable' ... and yet people are so quick to judge.

hey...dont make a difference to me what color you are. as long as ur dancing to my tunes --- representing the south-asian-ness, ROCK ON!!!! By all means. Exposure rids ignorance. Loads of respect to those who make the effort to expose our culture and loads more to those who embrace it. :)

Chai

You have a great song in your blog.

omg, your social insight is sooo phenomenal.

Ha! This reminds of being roped into the Diwali festival dance shows by the South Asian Student association in college.

Girls in my organic chem lab sort of badgered me into it. They walked me through all the steps, repeatedly during rehearsals... (something with sticks? something else with sheaves of grain?) ... walked me through alll the steps, repeatedly...(I dropped the sticks) ...repeatedly...(I missed the other sticks and nailed arms and necks)...until the flamenco dancer virtually-a-pro white chick finally stopped in teh middle of everything and exasperatedly yelled, "so are you Indian or not?!"

Of course, they all had a bit of fun when they slapped a too-tight lengha-choli on me and flung me out to gyrate during the filmi "fashion show" number. I had no idea why I was so popular (my abs aren't that great) until I realized yeeaars later that I'd danced to that "Choli Ke Peechhe" song...

I actually met my fiance, also Gujarati, when we were on that team.

Just another bhangra lowe-lowe story.

We’re just scared that if somebody else can do these things...

"We" = you. I snark on quality. If you can cross cultures and do it well, you're a stud++.

let's face it... bhangra dancing sucks. it's the eastern equivalent of country-line dancing. same with garba... the moves are repititive, non-unique, and are suppposed to be done in unison. how much more conformist, uniform, sheep-like and unoriginal can you get. seriously. fuck bhangra.

"Let's face it, sex sucks. The moves are repetitive, non-unique and done in unison. How much more conformist can you get. Seriously, f*ck f*cking."

let's face it... bhangra dancing sucks. it's the eastern equivalent of country-line dancing. same with garba... the moves are repititive, non-unique, and are suppposed to be done in unison. how much more conformist, uniform, sheep-like and unoriginal can you get. seriously. fuck bhangra.

Ooh! A rebel. You're so non-uniformed, non-sheep like and original and unique - your music man, it's...I'm lost for words - dude, if you're going to step up like that make sure your music is better than the laughable pompous fartings and lyrics on your website, I mean seriously, what are your lyrics supposed to be? At least bhangra people smile and have fun and don't have their heads stuck up their own ass - balle balle! ;-)

Let's face it, sex sucks. The moves are repetitive, non-unique and done in unison

Not neccessarily, as clearly demonstrated in KamaSutra. Purchase a copy today.

let's face it... bhangra dancing sucks.

Sharaab ~ maybe I should have the bhangra-off with you instead so I can show you some "unique" moves .. my favorite being the one I coined "The Bitch Slap" (No, really, I'm serious - it's one of my favorite bhangra moves)

I cringe equally when I see most non-Punjabi desis dancing Bhangra

I don't cringe anymore, though I admit I used to, as long as the dancer doesn't have his pugri or chuni (dupatta) falling off his or her head during the dance (oh and it's great if his pugri falls off and he chooses NOT to kick it off stage - oh yea, it happened). And second, please learn how to say the word BHANGRA! It annoys me to no end when a bhangra competition MC can't even say the word (hence part of the reason I boycott shows like BB and UCLA's BB). "Bhangra" people, as in PUNGRAA, not BAINGRA or BHAANGRAA. Is it really that damn hard?

Rant over.

Manish said:

We’re just scared that if somebody else can do these things...

"We" = you. I snark on quality. If you can cross cultures and do it well, you're a stud++.

When brown people do mediocre bhangra, we applaud. When a non-brown person joins them in doing mediocre bhangra, we criticize. When a white person's pronunciation is off, we look at them like they're a crpetbagger. When an ABCD's pronuniciation is off on some Sanskrit terminology, we criticise the elders for not teaching in a technologically sophisticated fashion. Double standard, yaar.

Again, 'we' = you. Badly done is badly done, and competence shines.

"Let's face it, sex sucks. The moves are repetitive, non-unique and done in unison. How much more conformist can you get. Seriously, f*ck f*cking."

Not if there are more than 2 people involved, right (never done that)? :D

But seriously, I like Manish' stand, I think I'd give extra credit to anyone who tries a thing from some other culture and does it well.

I had no idea why I was so popular (my abs aren't that great) until I realized yeeaars later that I'd danced to that "Choli Ke Peechhe" song...

Ha Ha!!!! I love that story!

I usually take my non-desi friends to the desi-themed parties in Houston. They're usually the only ones dancing on the floor for the first hour or so wondering why desis are so shy about dancing. Until that first bhangra song hits, and all the soporific browns spring to the floor and start yelling and flailing. The reaction on my friends' faces is usually priceless as they slink meekly away from the floor.

Again, 'we' = you. Badly done is badly done, and competence shines.

You've never seen the double standard applied to the 80% of stuff in the middle? Never heard the inconsistent carping about pronunciation from white faces but not from equally poorly spoken brown ones? Never heard anybody ask - what are they doing here?

Ennis is right. His "we" is actually not just him. No matter how enlightened Manish is (and I don't doubt it), people in general are pretty harsh towards outsiders. Outsiders are especially likely to be made into figures of fun, when they are being earnest.

But, of course, it's not just South Asians who do it.

Not to get all academic on this thread, but it seems that you're verging into the realm of the philosophical (and knowing that "Ennis" is a closet philosopher along with his political bent), I'll suggest some further reading from the Dark Continent

K.Antony Appiah - Cosmopolitanism

or if you want to go to the source of that effort, read his adviser

Kwasi Wiredu - Cultural Universals and Particulars

I suspect there are desi equivalents...

Of course I'll admit that it's more fun to discuss music, dancing, clothing and pop culture... your mileage may vary, caveat emptor etc.

I agree with Ennis...it's not just him, many if not most of 'us' have those double standards, consciously or not. Manish is probably a relative exception.

I second the Appiah recommendation. It's a short book too, and gets to the valuable point that many of us now are from everywhere.

Again, 'we' = you. Badly done is badly done, and competence shines.

In other words, why should non-desis bear any more burden for excellence than a desi does? Consider Jai Uttal - would we have ever mentioned him if he had been a desi? Heck, he might even have been mentioned in a positive context as an ABCD for this "efforts" - take a look at his resume:

Eventually this led him to the work of India's National Living Treasure, Ali Akbar Khan. At the age of 19, Jai moved to California to become a student of Khansahib for traditional voice training and to learn the sarod, a 25-stringed Indian instrument. Later he traveled to India where he was deeply inspired by the Bauls, the wandering street musicians of Bengal. Jai settled among them, communicating only through music, which ultimately helped establish his unique style.
During these early visits to India, Jai also met his Guru, Neem Karoli Baba, and spent time with many great beings of both the Hindu and Buddhist traditions. He became deeply absorbed in the practice of kirtan, the ancient yoga of chanting, or singing to God. This form of prayer became the core of his musical and spiritual life. [Link]

I'm not a fan, but he's no worse than most desi cross-over artists I've heard, in the middle, producing stuff that doesn't do it for me. We would hardly subject a similarly sounding desi artist to as scathing a working over as he got in the comments here. [Now that you're in Bombay, sample the average Bhajan, or better yet, the average commercialized Hindu devotional music and tell me whether he's within one standard deviation of it in quality]

The existence of two standards - one for outsiders (must be as good as Nina Paley) and one for "insiders" (vedy nice beta, you are so good! Keep practicing, vedy nice!) - proves my point.

Every team, with a non-brown dancer, gets extra points. Plus they are so specific and correct in their dance steps, its worth it to have them.
And who doesnt like punjabi music?

Following up on an earlier comment referencing Anthony Appiah's "Cosmopolitanism," a hefty excerpt from the book is here.

He argues that "traditional culture" isn't something you can put walls around, roughly along the lines of Manish's "competence shines" eclecticism.

Question for Jai and other UK readers: In reference to Ennis's statement in the original post (that culture wasn't 'apna')... do you guys in the UK use the word 'desi' for Indians/South Asians, or do you say 'apne'? I seem to recall when I visited that everyone said 'apne' all the time. 'Desi' was used as an adjective, like 'desi daru', but when describing people, it was always 'apne'. For example, one might ask "Is that person a gora?" and the answer might be "No he's an apna".

i agree with ennis...

it's great to think/believe its 'you' and not 'we'....but its usually "I"

The other componenet is not when someone shines, but when someone sucks and we applaud anyway. if you suck you suck regardless of your ethnicity. its one thing i don't like about pop culture that's heavily influenced by priviledge....of any kind. For example in Hip Hop nothing gets me more than hearing poor lyrics and bad flow....it sucks to think the only reason this guy is up on the mic is he knows someone or whatever

Amitabh,

Re: the Desi vs Apna question.

These days my Indian friends tend to be the type who don't use such slang in their normal conversations, so I'm afraid I can't really comment accurately on which term is more common here in the UK; however, when I was at university (about 10 years ago), the term "apna/apne" was much more frequent. The only time I heard someone use the word "desi", it involved some particularly badmaash friends of mine at the time, who would ogle some passing hot South Asian girl and comment "Hey look, there's that desi again."

Perhaps BongBreaker, Sunny, or other UK-based SMers could shed some light on the Desi vs Apna controversy ;)

I apologize for my ignorance but what does "apna/apne" mean? I've never heard the word used

I apologize for my ignorance but what does "apna/apne" mean? I've never heard the word used

It's a Punjabi word and means "ours" - basically people of our own background/culture.

And I've certainly been known to look down on Those Girls(tm) who are all like "OMG you sing Hindu songs! I love yoga! I want to marry an Indian boy! Kama Sutra! Ayurveda! and belly dancing."

Andrea -- I don't look down on Those Girls(tm), so please feel free to send them my way. ;-)

Ennis... I applaud you on your post. I have often called how ABCDs interact with one another and with our culture as "the authenticity game." That is, we're always trying to prove that the next person has a less authentic claim than we do. Sometimes it feels like we (and perhaps I should say "I") have such a insecure and myopic grasp of our heritage that we spend our time pulling one another down for not being Indian enough. When I was in college, knowing the Hindi movie canon were the table stakes for accepted Indianness. This insecurity naturally extends to non-desis participating in "our" traditions.

Another thought is perhaps one factor in our reflexive prejudice. We lack an appreciation that there are multiple flavors of "Indian" (or Indian-American for that matter) and many flavors that wouldn't know a word like an "apna" or even "desi" if it hit them on their heads. Like... our brethren who speak Malyali, Telegu, Tamil etc. Like... our brethren who come from Meghalaya and Arunachal Pradesh...

HitMan, I think you hit the right spot. I wish many of the so-called ABCDs (I use that term specifically for people who play the 'identity' game) realized that there is no fixed 'Indian' culture. I grew up in middle-class Bombay, but in a fairly sheltered existence, and I don't relate to most things people would call 'Indian culture'. I even started seriously on Bollywood after coming to the US, post DCH.

Hell, I wish many Indians understood this thing too. I have plenty of arguments with other people from India who'd like to believe I'm 'less Indian' coz I don't fit into their mould.

My kind of upbringing is commom among lot of people growing up in big cosmopolitan cities in India. Whenever I visited my relatives in Bengal, I felt like a foreigner, and was often treated like one, criticised for my poor Bengali. My parents tried to make me learn and read Bengali when I was a kid, which a totally rejected a few years later.

Even though one's parents or certain other people might think that way, there is no single defining 'Indian' way that you have to follow to be Indian.

there is no single defining 'Indian' way that you have to follow to be Indian.

Testify, bro.

It's a Punjabi word and means "ours" - basically people of our own background/culture.

It means the same in Hindi, and Gujarati too. In Marathi its Aaple/aapla

Sorry about that - never heard it in Hindi and I don't know Gujarati, so assumed it was Punjabi :)

You guys fail to observe one thing. The whitey depicted in the blog on the left actually looks very confused..as in what is going on kinda confused. I mean if you are going to partake in an cultural event, do it with some style. Sorry, but the way he looks in the picture he might as well give up Bhangra.

But did anyone notice the brown guy in front of that whitey..He is a hottie..I think they are both from the yale team.

Fully agreed on abcds and Indian stuff. At the risk of self-promotion, the last post but one on my blog is about a bhangra party in New Zealand. It was certainly ... interesting.

But did anyone notice the brown guy in front of that whitey..He is a hottie..

HitMan in #61: I think you nailed it too.

I hope this isn't a stupid Question. But isn't Bhangra a punjabi thing, or do people in all parts of india do it.

Traditionally? Bhangra is Punjabi. It went pan-desi in the UK first, as I understand ...

Ennis and HitMan -- awesome points. I see the "authenticity game" played out a lot in South Asian communities, but I think one of the reasons it gets so harsh is because it's a question that everyone constantly asks themselves, and feels the burden to prove it.

Jeet:

Every team, with a non-brown dancer, gets extra points. Plus they are so specific and correct in their dance steps, its worth it to have them.

Now THAT is interesting. Teams are rewarded for having non-desi people? Is it strictly on a race basis? Do you get points for South Asians that aren't Punjabi? And so is it assumed that it is more work to teach non-desi people and therefore they should be given more credit?

Teams are rewarded for having non-desi people?

Umm, I hope the original poster was just being funny or sarcastic. Bhangra competitions do not award extra points for non-desi dancers.

Huh... That's my good friend Brian in the pic on the left!

Technophobicgeek:

This is a long post so please bear with me. I'm not trying to insult or offend you, no disrespect intended, just take this as a discussion. Here goes:

Your post (#62) reinforces my view that people raised in Bombay (Mumbai, whatever) are often just as dislocated from Indian culture and/or their roots as ABCDs are (of course, I'm specifically referring to middle to upper class, English-medium educated people, and specifically those under 35 or so). I've met many Bombayites (of the social class under discussion), and perhaps my observations are simply generalisations, but they seem to take a perverse pride in not speaking any Indian language well. It seems many of you take your cultural cues from the Parsis, Catholics, and Anglo-Indians in your midst. From Bombay, I've met Punjabis who can't speak Punjabi, Sindhis who can't speak Sindhi, Gujaratis who can't speak Gujarati, and probably most disturbing of all, Maharashtrians who can't speak Marathi. Needless to say all spoke poor Hindi as well. They all speak beautiful English of course.

Probably most striking of all...NONE of them saw any problem with what I've described above. Even the Maharashtrians had no regrets or bad-feelings about their inability to speak fluent Marathi. And they all liked to laugh at ABCDs. Many felt ABCDs were too hard-core into Indian culture, too hyper about religion, language, caste, etc (I'll agree to the last one, Bombayites have a refreshing absence of caste-mentality). Most Bombayites seem very in love with the word 'cosmopolitan' as if any assertion of pride in one's roots or origins is a statement of extreme parochialism. And most are very happy with themselves, their world-view, and how they were raised (by their city, not necessarily how they were raised by their parents). Simultaneously, as I mentioned, looking down on ABCDs and also on Indians with a more strongly defined regional/language identity). Even though often having less Indian cultural attributes than either of those other two groups. The ultimate irony is they even look down on Maharashtrians (calling them Ghatis and what not) while living on their soil.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it would be OK for you guys to question your upbringing and attitudes once in a while. Not every stance or viewpoint you guys have is necessarily correct in every instance. Geographically living in India doesn't mean you're necessarily less confused (without even realising it) than an ABCD. (PS When I say 'you' I don't specifically mean Technophobicgeek, I mean most Bombaiyites of the social group under discussion).

In my post above, I wasn't trying to insult Parsis, Catholics, or Anglo-Indians; it's just that they are three Bombay demographic groups known for their high degree of westernisation, and strong preference for the English language and western culture.

Your post (#62) reinforces my view that people raised in Bombay (Mumbai, whatever) are often just as dislocated from Indian culture and/or their roots as ABCDs are (of course

Amitabh,

Thanks for putting it so politely...not often the way I hear it. But the very sentence above is one I'd like to question. Why do YOU (or your social group) get to decide that I am dislocated from Indian culture or 'roots'? In fact, what gives anyone the right to decide that your definition of Indian culture is canonical?

Also, I do agree that there are a lot of 'cosmopolitan' people who do look down upon people from less urban areas or cultures, but in many cases, its not true. And I've seen both sides. I went to junior college (Grade 11-12) with a class, many of whom were very very rich kids, far more westernized than I was. Some looked down upon me, some others were quite cool and didn't care.

Unfortunately, 'English' still has connotations of social class among many sections of society in India. But for me, and many people of my generation (not all), it's just another 'Indian' language.

It seems many of you take your cultural cues from the Parsis, Catholics, and Anglo-Indians in your midst. From Bombay, I've met Punjabis who can't speak Punjabi, Sindhis who can't speak Sindhi, Gujaratis who can't speak Gujarati, and probably most disturbing of all, Maharashtrians who can't speak Marathi.

Again, very random statements which have NO basis in fact. I did go to a catholic-church run school, but I know no parsis or anglo-indians personally. And I must inform you that the catholics/christians I knew often spoke far better Konkani/Kannada/Malayalam than I speak Bengali. No, my friend, I don't think this has anything to do with taking 'cues'. It is a natural consequence of urbanization and mixing of communities. If I had more Bengalis living around me, I'd probably be doing fine in that language. As simple as that.

some deride cosmopolitanism as rootlessness, but is also something to be proud of. I admit, I do wish sometimes that I spoke/read Bengali better etc, but growing up with every kind of Indian around me has given me a much broader view of India which I often find lacking in people from more regional backgrounds.

As a simple example, when I talk to my highly educated and intellectual friends from Kolkata, I am often horrified at the crude stereotypes and generalizations they make about other Indian communities (Punjabis, Marwaris, Muslims etc). Growing up in Bombay, going to school and college with people of all the above and more communities, I could never ever agree with that. Of course, I end up being accused of being 'detached' from Indian culture, but whatever.

I do agree that people can feel rootless even if they are in India and grew up there. I definitely do, sometimes. But then, I remind myself that identity 'confusion' is not 'inherent', but happens because of what the surrounding world says you should be. It's the same for a kid growing up in a cosmopolitan city like Bombay, or in the US, the difference is in the specifics. Urban india is its own culture, and it's just better that it gets accepted, coz it's there to stay.

let's face it... bhangra dancing sucks. it's the eastern equivalent of country-line dancing. same with garba... the moves are repititive, non-unique, and are suppposed to be done in unison. how much more conformist, uniform, sheep-like and unoriginal can you get. seriously. fuck bhangra.

uumm...there is no way i can put rednecks and bhangra dancers in the same mental image. besides, it's better than other things we could be feasting our eyes on, and i'm mesmerized by it. plus, the music itself it just super enjoyable. hoi hoi.

Now if all of you could leave your secret weight loss tips as well, that would be great :)

um...it involves male bhangra dancers.

"Let's face it, sex sucks. The moves are repetitive, non-unique and done in unison. How much more conformist can you get. Seriously, f*ck f*cking."

manish is golden.

But did anyone notice the brown guy in front of that whitey..He is a hottie..

yeah, he's ok, he grows on ya. now from penn state, left and middle, (left especially).......whew...

ah, how it makes me smile everytime my buddy sunny tells me of his permances, and when i see my pal gobind's pics!

Hell, I wish many Indians understood this thing too. I have plenty of arguments with other people from India who'd like to believe I'm 'less Indian' coz I don't fit into their mould......Even though one's parents or certain other people might think that way, there is no single defining 'Indian' way that you have to follow to be Indian.

Something people with that kind of negative mindset have to realise is that being Indian is just a matter of ethnic affiliation and (in the case of those possessing Indian citizenship) nationality; it is not a state of intrinsic superiority, either in a moral or a cultural sense.

The latter is the kind of jingoistic, "exclusivist", supremacist mentality it's better to stay away from, even though many desis often fall into this trap due to environmental influences and cultural conditioning.

it is not a state of intrinsic superiority, either in a moral or a cultural sense.

But then, we have laddoos ;)

But then, we have laddoos ;)

We have Aishwarya and Celina Jaitley, they have Angelina Jolie and Monica Bellucci.....

We have Amitabh Bachchan, they have Sean Connery.....

We have Russell Peters, they have Jon Stewart.....

We have Benzer, they have Versace.....

We have arranged marriages with wedding nights involving sex between virtual strangers, they have.....er.....one-night-stands involving sex between virtual strangers.....

Potato, potahto ;)

Jai you make "them" look too good.

Nah, I think Jai is right. But does all of that outweigh ladoos?

Not the besan ones.

Potato, potahto ;)

Potato (or potahto) pakoras .... mmmmmm .....

I mention Angelina Jolie & Monica Bellucci, and all you guys can think about is 'mithai' and pakoras.

Priorities, people !

Jai: No, I'm thinking about Monica Bellucci.

Technophobicgeek: Thank you for your thoughtful reply. When I have a little more time later today I'll respond to what you said (I agree with a lot of it).

The existence of two standards - one for outsiders (must be as good as Nina Paley) and one for "insiders" (vedy nice beta, you are so good! Keep practicing, vedy nice!) - proves my point.

my view that people raised in Bombay (Mumbai, whatever) are often just as dislocated from Indian culture and/or their roots as ABCDs are

Did I type Mumbia? Oy vey. Mumbai. Mumbai. "Bombay" is less prone to dyslexic typos. Sigh.

Sorry to be trite, but this discussion calls to mind the blind men and the elephant.

You nailed it! Did I ever tell you I just lurrrv your Sita stuff? Always waiting for more!

We have Amitabh Bachchan, they have Sean Connery

ouch. *that* is a tie.

Potato (or potahto) pakoras .... mmmmmm .....

YUMMMMMMMM.....now we're getting somewhere!

I mention Angelina Jolie & Monica Bellucci, and all you guys can think about is 'mithai' and pakoras.

Priorities, people !

yeah, some of us know better and would rather take the latter.

Um...Mumbia is in India. It is part of India. Therefore, Mumbia culture is Indian culture, by definition.

or gauw-wallih, however you spell it...

Right said technophobicgeek and NinaP.

People in Jalandhar don't speak Punjabi because they're more in touch with their roots - it's because Jalandhar happens to be overwhelmingly populated by Punjabis.

If anything, urban Indians frequently speak multiple Indian languages - I learned Hindi, Marathi and Sanskrit in school in Bombay (sadly lost most of the latter two but that's because of America, not Bombay).

Oh and on a recent visit to Bangalore, it wasn't surprising to note that many people there switched between Hindi, Kannada, Telugu and Tamil. My own parents can read and write Telugu, Hindi and Bengali - THEY grew up in Calcutta, the Bombay of their youth (don't laugh).

Also Amitabh - bambaiyya ko mat bhulna. It's 100% Indian! Desi ghee ki bani hui bhasha.

Also Amitabh - bambaiyya ko mat bhulna. It's 100% Indian! Desi ghee ki bani hui bhasha.

Arrey kya jhakkaas bola, bhidu!

Sad Truth. (I'm just a Bihari gwaw-wallih...)

Same goes for Bihar too :p

To The Graduate

Didn't know we had bloggers down in NZ...yay good for you!

Amitabh : I am Catholic from Bombay and I speak fluent Konkani..as do most of my cousins and co-religionist friends..

And I don't know about others, but I speak Bambaiyya out of choice..I did learn shudh sanskritised Hindi in school and can speak it if I want...but Bambaiyya is how we express ourselves yaar...we are like this only....

As for Westernization among Catholics..I don't think it was any more or less than the other communities in my school or college..Hindu/Muslim/Parsi/Sikh whatever...that's just Bombay culture I guess..in that sense Bombay is different from the rest of India...

I tend to agree with your points about our attitudes towards ABCDs ...

techno, SMR : great points bhailog..I think Bambaiyya ought to get some kind of official language status yaar...like ebonics did...

Nina P: I would go further to say that Bombay culture defines much of India's pop culture via Bollywood, TV, Music ...

from a lurker - I have also been wondering about the word desi - I asked my husband about it and he had never heard of it (Punjabi Hindu born and raised in UK). Is he just on the wrong side of 35, or is this a word used by the older generation as well?

I'm white and from the U.S., but my husband's mum and aunties love dressing me up in saris and salvar kameez, etc, for parties. I like it too, but have often felt a little awkward about how younger people might view me... who does that white girl think she is?? etc... Well, it can't be helped as I can hardly say no.

As for culture, my husband is very proud of his heritage, but he hasn't got a clue about most religious things, can speak only basic Punjabi, and could probably only name 5 or less of the very top, most iconic film stars of India. I'm sure he would say he is just as Indian as any other foreign-born Indian, though! Having said this, we try our best with our children, but it is sad that their Indian heritage is going to be so "watered down" (if you want to say it this way) that all they will pass down to their own children (unless they marry Indian girls) are a handful of Punjabi expressions (several rude), an enthusiasm for dhal chohl and "curry pockets" (this is what they call eating Indian food with roti), and, stretching it, perhaps the occasional rukhri - ?. So far, they do not even want to visit India, because they know it involves injections... :( they are age 6 and 11 now.

On the up side, they are reaping the benefits of Asian family values!!! They are much closer to my husband's parents than to my parents.

Re: "Outsiders are especially likely to be made into figures of fun, when they are being earnest."

My husband's family have all had a lot of fun with the story of me going into an Indian restaurant (by myself) and proudly saying to the waiter that my water was "gunda panni" (dirty water), when I was trying to show off my Punjabi and say "tunda panni" (cold water). I have had to retell the story for company more than once... but it is all in fun... :)

I did once consider taking Punjabi lessons (in the UK) but was put off by the thought that some young UK-born Punjabis might find my presence off-putting. Who knows... maybe I should have just gone for it! Probably more worrying over nothing...

This is a great blog - I did get the April Fool's joke, by the way... after all the blog posts blasting those "exotic" newspaper articles and book reviews, how could I miss the exotic terms liberally sprinkled throughout that fake travel ad... Should I be teaching my children this term, "Desi"?

I asked my husband about it and he had never heard of it (Punjabi Hindu born and raised in UK).

In Britland they call 'em Asians or British Asians.

I'm white and from the U.S., but my husband's mum and aunties love dressing me up in saris and salvar kameez, etc, for parties. I like it too, but have often felt a little awkward about how younger people might view me... who does that white girl think she is??

Nah, more power to you.

About the word desi, its a new word that I've used to self-id. a solidarity word that means south asian. I'm brown, sinhalese-tamil, and its not a word that I've grown up with and is rather new to me.

In Britland they call 'em Asians or British Asians.

We don't use the word "Brown" to describe (South) Asians either.....

Jai - I thought that, at one point, Asians in the UK were considered Black. Did I misunderstand? Was that then but not now?

I've seen the opposite when it comes to non-desi wives marrying into families...I was sitting around with my mom and aunt, and she was commenting how when they went to her nephew's house (he married a white girl, *tauba tauba*) she served them real indian masala chai. She seemed so impressed that this girl had made the effort to make indian tea, and hadn't served them some wattered down version of the dreaded "tea-bag" or English tea :)

I commented that had the girl been Indian, and had she served them "just" chai, she would be complaining that there was no food/nasta served with the tea...

and my mom and aunt agreed that there were definitely lower standards for non-desi spouses (a white son in law who can't take spicy food if more easily forgiven than a brown boy who won't eat desi food for the same reason, brown boy is seen as fussy...and vice versa, a white boy/girl who enjoys and or cooks desi food is more valued than brown boys/girls who do etc...)

---
I remember that we used to have cultural programs at school during sports day, and it was a mixed bag, the desi students would be belting Kikuyu and Luo etc folk songs, and shuffling our brown feet to "black" music...and vice versa. It just depended on what your class had been assigned to do that year. It was fabulous.

there was also cross religious mixing among the Asians. You would see Punjabis/Sikhs and Ismailis at garbas at Navratri time, and Hindus and Sikhs at the Eid melas...

I spoke conversational Punjabi because we had Sikh family friends (or I would speak to the dadimas in swahili, definitely a shared language :) But more often than not, most desis there spoke Gujrati (especially the older generation) because the majority of desis are Gujrati in Kenya...it was a shared language, and certainly the language in which a lot of business was conducted so people learned it. These days in Nairobi people especially young people speak sheng which is a mixture of many local languages, which is much like what is happening in many cosmopolitan areas in India...the idea that this makes one less authentic is ludicrous. No one owns a culture, no one owns an identity such that they have a right to say how it should be interpreted or how it can and cannot be changed. Culture is not a fixed object with set-in-stone boundries and a set of ideals that one MUST adhere to COMPLETELY in order to be "of" that culture.

And I see it as being no different to our brown asses going to clubs and parties weekend after weekend and grinding to hip hop....

---
ohhh I just heard a fantastic remix of one of my fave songs--Aicha (Proper Pak Remix)

now thats what you call fusion :)

ohhh I just heard a fantastic remix of one of my fave songs--Aicha (Proper Pak Remix)

Oh please please please! I have 2 whole versions of that song already (the original by Khaled and a salsa mix by Africando, I want to collect all possible versions). I know there's a hindi version floating around somewhere, I need to find it.

Please tell me more so I can look for this remix!!!

I heard it on bbc Asia, it seems to be by "outlandish"???? any one out there who knows?

also I thought the orig was by cheb khaled

the song is my reason for learning (or trying to learn) french and the reason one of my daughters will be so named :)

Ennis,

I thought that, at one point, Asians in the UK were considered Black. Did I misunderstand? Was that then but not now?

No, I don't think you misunderstood it. It may, however, have been a misunderstanding on the part of many of the local British population at the time (this is pretty ironic when you consider all those green-eyed, brown-haired, vanilla-skinned Punjabi & Pakistani girls around in the UK these days), although -- from what I remember -- I think it was also a factor of black people being more established in the UK (and the West in general, at least the US) and having greater political clout and, at the time, a much higher cultural profile and influence compared to Asians, so I guess Asians joined them in an unofficial "alliance".

It may also have been a relic from colonial times, if Indians were homogeneously regarded as "a black race" by British/European people in those days.

However, this has changed in recent years, as the profile and influence of Asians has substantially increased in the UK, especially with the 2nd-Generation, and of course the numbers are significantly greater too as children born in the UK have reached adulthood and made their presence felt (as you probably know, Asians are the biggest ethnic group in the UK after white/Caucasian people).

Perhaps the growth and rise of an indigenous Western/British Asian "culture" has also contributed to the "de-coupling" from black people in this sense.

*green-eyed, brown-haired

I'm referring to those who are naturally like this, of course, and have not resorted to tinted contact lenses and hair dye ;)

I'm referring to those who are naturally like this, of course, and have not resorted to tinted contact lenses

damn those girls! :)

I did once consider taking Punjabi lessons (in the UK) but was put off by the thought that some young UK-born Punjabis might find my presence off-putting. Who knows... maybe I should have just gone for it!

Btw, you are the mom of desis if they choose to identify themselves as South Asian.

"if your hair and eyes were real, i wouldn't have dissed ya/
but since they was bought, i had to dismiss ya"

- phife dawg of a tribe called quest

if you'll allow me this moment of levity.

Ahaha, Siddhartha, so apt..."I asked who did your hair and you tell me 'Diane made it'".

ah but neha, you know you could make some $ selling your hair, right?

Where does the hair come from? Hair comes from the temples in India. The local people give their hair to the temples as a gift to their Gods. Great Lengths then purchases the hair in a ponytail form to guarantee that it is root to tip. This ensures that the cuticle layers are all aligned in the same directions. It is then gently processed in the Great Lengths laboratories in Italy.

Why choose Indian hair
The genetic origin and basic structure of Indian hair is very similar to European hair. It is of exceptional quality because Indian women rarely go to salons for chemical treatments of any kind.

(i feel like this has been blogged here at some point, but too lazy to search)

that all they will pass down to their own children (unless they marry Indian girls) are a handful of Punjabi expressions (several rude),

that's just a really funny line!

anyway, you're never too old to learn a language, so teach them Punjabi. it can only help them to know a second language and that too in another script. it'll boost brain power. For that matter, its a benefit and not a liability to be of multiple heritage....let the world be their oyster. I'm sure many people would relish the chance to be a part of two worlds so to speak

Siddhartha, not only does hair make money but weaves can also save lives.

Whoever started the debate on the word "Desi"...

I live in NZ. The Indian population consists mainly of Indo Fijians and Indians from India, and I must add to this - that the increase in the Indian population is very recent or as a friend of mine puts it: 1989...1 curry shop. 2006...100,000 curry shops.

To everyone else in the country: We're just the "Indians". Not Asians because to them Asians consist of people who are from China, Japan, Korea...well you get the point...You need to have the special eye feature in order to be called an Asian

Sorry about my ramblings...
Now, turining my attention to the Fijian Indians, I think they're more Indians than the Indians from India...much like what the kenyandesi described, their lingo is a mix of Bhojpuri, Gujurati and a lot of South Indian languages, but mainly Bhojpuri - which is a delight to the ears ;)

Anyway, I like to veer off the topic a lot, so back to the word Desi. A couple of years ago, when I had started uni, there used to be this group called UniIndian (I wonder if they still exist - a google search might seem helpful, but I am just lazy). Now these mundas from the UniIndian and I call them mundas because it was mainly run by "punjabi mundas" introduced the word "Desi" amongst the junta of the the university. Also it was the time when American Desi was a big hit down here. They also came out with their own brand of T-shirts, hoodies etc. with the words "100 % Desi" where the % was made of the map of NZ...So, back to the word...It just didn't catch on...

We're still just Indians for everyone...no matter what we like to call each other etc. Gujjus, of Fijians or whatever...

I spent a large part of my childhood in Africa...the country shall remain nameless...but funny enough, we were just "Indians" there too...

kiwihindustani:

To everyone else in the country: We're just the "Indians". Not Asians because to them Asians consist of people who are from China, Japan, Korea...

Jai:

I think it was also a factor of black people being more established in the UK (and the West in general, at least the US) and having greater political clout and, at the time, a much higher cultural profile and influence compared to Asians, so I guess Asians joined them in an unofficial "alliance".

Shruti,

Just to clarify my own background and comments in case there is any confusion, I live in the UK. When I used the term "Asian" on this thread, I was referring specifically to what Americans call "South Asians". Normally I used the American terminology when participating on SM, but as someone had used the British terms and had addressed some questions to me, I replied in the same vein.

It's interesting reading about the East Asian American involvement in the black power/civil rights movements in the US though, I didn't know about any of that.

It's cool Jai- I wasn't confused by your use of the "Asian," I was just chiming in on the ethnic label discussion :)

As per the East Asian involvement with the black power movement, it's not something most people here are aware of, but there's a book on Yuri Kochiyama's involvement with the Black Panthers and Malcolm X- the first book ever written about an Asian American revolutionary. It was mostly in the first half of the establishment of the Black Panthers, as non-black activism became estranged once the "good" black power movement turned into a black nationalism that was not only exclusive towards other civil rights movements, it became oppressive to the marginalized members of it's own movement (basically the women). But that's a different story, and overall, I'm very proud of the Black Panthers.

Shruti, thank you for that link -- fascinating reading, especially regarding who cradled Malcolm X as he was dying. We learn something new on SM every day ;)

when you consider all those green-eyed, brown-haired, vanilla-skinned Punjabi & Pakistani girls around in the UK these days

haha i cant believe they have pics of us on their site. i am one of the captains of psu bhangra and thanks for finding those photos. by the way, if anyone is intersted in seeing what we have this year, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-YA2qgaew&search=penn%20state%20bhangra, is a performance at a cancer fundraiser at psu that raised 4.2 million dollars for kids with cancer, called THON.

apropos of nothing, RIP Surjeet Bindhrakia

Let’s be honest, many of us sit here and learn the words to Hindi songs phonetically

(Horrified) F*ck no. Speak for yourself, Cyrano.

Still, I’m not used to it, and I think that other desis are even less used to it than I am. We tend to snark a lot about white people doing puja or yoga, criticizing their pronunciation, saying that they don’t somehow grok the soul of the practice.

I disagree. I feel that non-Indians (they are not limited to white people, Ennis!), tend to "grok the soul of the practice" more than the external formalities like puncuation (of Sanksrit yogic terms) or cleanliness rules (of puja and stuff) that Indians may emphasize. Westerners tend to vibe more with the essence of spiritual practices, the heart of it all.

oh shit, that's me-a friend of mine spotted this pic
but seriously, glad to read this, coming from the other side of the coin, it resolves a lot of whats been nagging me