It's not as bad as you think, the British bureaucracy can learn a lot about screwing up business and commerce from the Indian bureaucracy.

The first law for example should be easy enough to bypass just set up a proxy company in Ireland that outsources to India. Then send work to India via Ireland.

beef-eating-atheist-hindu

What a subtle way to show your open-mindedness, tolerance and how in every way you are better than us, the vegetarian-theist-hindus. (or fundamentalist)

What a subtle way to show your open-mindedness, tolerance and how in every way you are better than us, the vegetarian-theist-hindus. (or fundamentalist)

I don't think I am better, you are just insecure. No biggie.

Ritualists felt threatened by Carvakas. Its nothing new.

More of the socialist crap from Europe. Like the beef eater says, businesses will always find loop holes in the law to bypass these protectionist policies.

so let's see, the UK NHS sucks ba**s as it is, it did so 20 years ago when i lived there, and people go elsewhere so they dont die waiting to see a dr. at ER, so they give the system a leg up by taking out of it a entire group of people who are willing to work for crappy pay and with crappy equipment...

mmm...

wow, there's that high gov. thinking again..

its a train, going fast, gaining speed, very big, laying urself down on the tracks aint going to stop it.

as for pt 1, 1 of 3 tech support calls i have had for some reason, lord behold, is from ireland. i know caus ei always ask.

protectionism at worst...

i say we all pick up and go home.

I think the NHS rule is much more serious and directly impact lots of people severely. But if there really are a lot of doctors who are going to be deported(?), how are they planning to make up for the shortfall?

well, am i glad europe is getting more marginal. as far as i see it, globalization in europe has always had predatory meanings---colonialism, aid or similar. reminds me of jack nicholson on nurse rachet, "they like a rigged game". anything a little more fair, they will go up in arms---although i concede uk has not been anywhere as bad as continental europe. but imo, this was an eventuality, not a surprise.

so let's see, the UK NHS sucks ba**s as it is, it did so 20 years ago when i lived there

Sucks balls? Whose balls does the UK suck? Not yours, that's for sure! Or maybe you like sucking balls or something?

Why can people not talk about an issue without ball sucking comments about a whole society? "Hey. I lived in the UK twenty years ago, and I didnt get my balls sucked, so the whole of the UK sucks balls, yeah"

Pleeeeeeeez

That was a comedy post by the way I dont really think you suck balls dude - although the NHS does have a nice line in nurses uniform, and I believe that in suppositry insertion, the NHS leads the way in terms of speed and efficiency.

Second, they’ve banned the National Health Service from training Indian doctors without work permits, unless the NHS proves it couldn’t find a Brit. And the ban is immediate with no phase-in, hosing doctors already in training

It is unfortunate that this policy will negatively impact a lot of talented Indian physicians. But, from the Brit. perspective, I can see why they would not want to discourage the British population (incl. the Indian-British sub-pop) itself from pursuing medical school due to the heavy outside competition. You could have made an argument for such a policy in America a number of years ago - allowing a lot of foregin tech. workers (who are talented but work for less pay) aggravated the already declining numbers of American students entering the sciences.

In My English, it is

Whom do I sue for my check?

Yo, Queen!

It is hard to be this calculating on a consistent basis, so it’s not surprising that writers from Shakespeare onward often use who and whom interchangeably. In speech and informal writing, people tend to use who, even as the object of a verb or preposition. A sentence such as Who did John say he was going to support? is perfectly natural, despite violating the traditional rules. Using whom often sounds forced or pretentiously correct, as in Whom shall I say is calling? or Whom did you give it to? Nevertheless, many writers adhere to the rules, especially in formal style. These rules apply in the same manner to whoever and whomever.

Language is flexible. Long live the Republic!

the Indian docs were in the UK based on lies given to them by NRI businessmen who run the PLAB (Doc exams for forigners). Most of them stuck in terrible housing in East London. The law is there partly to protect local European Union and British doctors but also to protect Indian docs from themselves.

At the end of the day millions of Indians would jump ship and head off to foreign lands just to find a job in order to get out of the constant cycle of life in modern India. This is why foreign nations are forced to put quotas on Indians moving to their countries.

while western hypocrisy on globalization and protectionism is not surprising, the issue of health care workers from developing countries in the UK is an important one. as shiva said, many indian and other doctors do not find work in the UK on arrival and have been forced to rely on local temples for food. also, the NHS has been accused of poaching qualified health care workers from developing countries, resulting in a severe shortage in those countries. sub-saharan africa, according to the latest reports, has the worst health care worker shortage crisis, in part because many are leaving for developed countries. one can't blame them, because opportunities at home are so poor, but there is a downside. so it's a vicious cycle.

All the arguments for keeping the barbarians out of the gate are debatable and is a separate issue. That doesn't in any way justify introducing a rule like this with immediate force. This is the reason I am not totally opposed to the outsourcing law. The outsourcing companies can negotiate their new deals with full knowledge of the costs.. but the doctors weren't told that they will need a permit when they went there in the first case.

So I'm sitting here eating pizza from my local Pakistani-owned takeaway ("1 PIZZA 4 TOP, ING" they offer, bafflingly), watching the John Abraham video for "Meter Down" for the millionth time on B4U (ah, it's either this or BBC news or bad American sitcom reruns) feeling of two minds of the whole situation. Conceptually I love the idea of immigration and see the need for skilled migrants in particular, but sometimes I have tantrums about the NHS. In 3 years I have never once gotten a doctor who speaks English as a first language, and I am constantly struggling to communicate with them. And their secretaries. And their nurses. Hell, my boyfriend was given a sore throat spray when he went in begging for a referral to a chiropractor for his lower back pain. Even when their English is OK, their "bedside manner" is APPALLING. I feel like they probably SHOULD offer jobs to qualified Brits first. I've read all the exposes on how overseas doctors are lied to and tricked and abused and that system should obviously be overhauled, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that home-grown med school graduates often don't get job offers. (Bong Breaker, where are you with your first-hand knowledge of this situation?) I guess mostly I'm saying that for me, my left-wing open-mindedness sometimes breaks down when I'm being shuttled around various incompetent NHS doctors with less than ideal language skills, and I can't help having nasty thoughts like "don't ANY British people become doctors nowadays?!?"

Secondly, for ANYONE to offer a non-EU member a job, they have to prove they couldn't find a qualified European. Should the NHS be any different from any other British employer in that respect? This has been discussed recently in the news regarding Bangladeshi restaurant workers -- the gov't says they should be looking to Eastern Europeans, not guys from the subcontinent. The restaurant owners, who are used to exploiting their employees, keeping things off the books, employing illegals, etc, are fighting this because essentially it will mean having to do things by the rules. Maybe the question is, does Europe have any "responsibility" towards employing Europeans first, or should we all simply be moving towards a more flexible global economy?

For the record, I DO think it's silly for Indians to pay Brits for outsourcing job loss. I'm just wittering about other things because I'm home sick with a cold. :)

It is not sad that this law happened. It is sad however that Indian docs would rather live like crap in the UK without jobs knowing they have been lied to - than with dignity in India.

Shiva,

What is sad is that the Indian population still places a huge premium on a "Phoren-returned" doctor. A lot of my colleagues have endured the crappy conditions in UK, living 8-10 guys in a cramped flat, studying for the exams and then trotting around the country searching for that elusive "training" rotation. And they do it over and over again every 6 mths till they land the registrar's post, at which point they are at least assured of some level of advanced training.

The ones who dont get a registrar position return to India, and trust me, they actually find it easier to attract patient/clientele because the patients believe that if he/she has trained abroad, he/she has to be better than the guy who did not venture out of the country.

I dont know when this trend will end.

WesternGhaat :

this trend will not end until Indians decide to sort out India. Until Bijli, Sarak and Pani are not the only issues.

Lets clean up pann spit, men peeing on street corners, animals all over the place, rubbish dumped on streets, poverty coming out of our ears, population out of control, caste and religious/ minority based politics.

You know why that all is - it is because WE do not want and therefore deserve the change.

Bottom Line : Pay your taxes and those that get our taxes should put it to good use.

the rot starts at home.

16 · midwestern eastender complains:

In 3 years I have never once gotten a doctor who speaks English as a first language, and I am constantly struggling to communicate with them. And their secretaries. And their nurses.

And how will a non-english speaking EU person solve this problem?

Hell, my boyfriend was given a sore throat spray when he went in begging for a referral to a chiropractor for his lower back pain

begin cheap shot> It might have done him as much good and probably was cheaper. Adjustments shheeesh! /end cheap shot

but I'm sure I've read somewhere that home-grown med school graduates often don't get job offers.

Hmmmm. Let's see. If you were hiring consultants and registrars, who would YOU hire. An english speaking anglo from a local medical school or a "poorly trained" non-white graduate of a phoren medical school who doesn't speak english well enough to communicate.

Every single doc from the uk (anglo) i've spoken to seems to whine about the quality of the nhs and how the lovely thatcher did a number on it and how the new labor seems to have ballsed it up as well (apparently mba to md/mbbs ratios are terrible). I don't think blaming the coloreds will offer you a quick fix.

men peeing on street corners,

That happens in France a lot too. Men peeing on every street corner out of their designer wear, after a night of partying. Not to defend it in any way...but just FYI before you claim it as a purely desi affliction.

Hey Midwes...ender, you sure you want a German doctor?

You know why that all is - it is because WE do not want and therefore deserve the change.

Out-of-touch-alarm-bell-rings! Check out the statistics of the trends for 'brain drain' from India and 'reverse brain drain' back to India. Go visit an Indian city today. Things are definitely moving for India now, and hopefully will continue that way. So cut out the old Uncleji whining pessimism, it's so 90s.

JayV: Hmmmm. Let's see. If you were hiring consultants and registrars, who would YOU hire. An english speaking anglo from a local medical school or a "poorly trained" non-white graduate of a phoren medical school who doesn't speak english well enough to communicate.

It depends, if I was one of those agencies hired by the NHS to find employees and got to take a cut of their pay (which is what happens with non-EU doctors and nurses, they end up like indentured servants to a 3rd-party company) I'd probably find the cheapest qualified person I could. An agency stands to make far more money from finding someone who's only allowed to stay a year or two and is desperate to be here. The NHS is cutting corners wherever they can -- only yesterday there was a thing in the news about some leaked memo saying that emergency rooms had to make referrals as much as possible, or not get paid for the work they were doing. The whole MRSA virus scare for the past year (people dying from a virus said to be caused by dirty hospitals) has been partly blamed (truly or falsely, I don't know) on using untrained foreign temporary staff. There's been secret camera exposes on TV and everything. I dunno, I'm just saying the combined effects of gloablism (hire the cheapest foreign labor you can!) and the Thatcher/Blair NHS tax-funding-cut horror and the inevitable language barrier of immigration and you've got a messed-up situation where no one is happy. Additionally, there's a story in the paper almost every freaking day about Brits travelling to India for hip replacements and fertility treatment and nose jobs because of NHS waiting lists and refusal to perform certain procedures. Indian (and African, and Jamaican) doctors are clamoring to come here, while rich Brits just go to India for medical treatment. How screwed up is that?!?

And JayV, I'm fairly sympathetic to immigration and economic migration -- the boyfriend was born in Bangladesh. I worked here illegally for a while because my job prospects were better here than in the U.S. My best friend here is a brown American who's worked in India (for a British company but with no Indian work visa) for years. That's why I feel really split about the issue -- I rationally know why people move around due to economic pressure, but the emotional part of me just goes ballistic when I struggle to get decent health care. That's all I'm saying. I'm not blaming the individuals as much as the system.

And how will a non-english speaking EU person solve this problem?

Well said. The issue is hiring medics from the EU as a whole, not just locals from the UK.

An english speaking anglo from a local medical school or a "poorly trained" non-white graduate of a phoren medical school who doesn't speak english well enough to communicate.

I should probably mention that, as far as I know, the greater proportion of South Asian doctors in the UK these days are actually British-born. It was a different situation 15-20 years ago, but not today, considering that so many British-born desis have reached adulthood and subsequently pursued medical careers themselves. I believe that up to 1/3 of all British medical students are of South Asian ethnicity too.

However, to my understanding there are currently 8000 unemployed doctors in the UK and the foreign ones have all taken the PLAB, so the reason for the current NHS drive is an excess of doctors rather than a shortfall. Of course this contradicts all the simultaneous claims about the "shortage of doctors in the NHS", so I don't know exactly what's going on here. Perhaps, as someone has already requested, BongBreaker or another UK-based desi doctor should expand on the dynamics of the situation so that we can hear a view from someone "on the inside".

>>>> That happens in France a lot too. Men peeing on every street corner out of their designer wear, after a night of partying. Not to defend it in any way...but just FYI before you claim it as a purely desi affliction.

- I give a hoot about the French. They are a nation on a downward spiral. I want India to suceed. Not fussed about the French.

>>>> Out-of-touch-alarm-bell-rings! Check out the statistics of the trends for 'brain drain' from India and 'reverse brain drain' back to India. Go visit an Indian city today. Things are definitely moving for India now, and hopefully will continue that way. So cut out the old Uncleji whining pessimism, it's so 90s

- I know, I go to various Indian cities several times in a year. My tennants in Mumbai in are Korean engineers. I know. It is these phoren folks and returning NRIs that I speak to about what can be done to improve the situation in Bharat Mata.

As for the Uncleji moaning.... did it sound so bad?

"The whole MRSA virus scare for the past year (people dying from a virus said to be caused by dirty hospitals)"

MRSA = Methicillin Resistant Staph. Aureus
Not a virus, Just a Bacteria gone Bada$$......

As for the Uncleji moaning.... did it sound so bad?

Yeah, it actually did. Sorry about getting all riled up :) I like to believe that India will make it, somehow.

@Shiva

I'm in complete agreement with you about the French. I have no love for them, given that they manage to get loved by everyone else :D

I'm in complete agreement with you about the French.

French women are hot. That's all that matters.

And the UK is not so bad to live in :|

I'm curious - is the legislation about outsourcing merely window-dressing for the electorate? In the US, I doubt workers could sue for loss of employment, do British workers have such a right?

This is worth reading:

http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/current.php?artType=view&artMonth=January&artYear=2006&EntryNo=4082

Poking around various websites (mostly the beeb), it seems that the so called crisis is at the junior TRAINING level. You can get jobs (locum work) but they don't count towards training. This apparently puts on pressure them to leave the NHS for other countries that are longing for white immigrants like oz and an increased dependence on non-english speaking doctors within the nhs itself (my simplistic take).

Like in the us, there is huge competition even among the home grown docs to specialize in the sexy (read big ticket) areas like surgery training which results in more folk not getting what they want in the cool spots like london (who wants to train in north yorkshire anyway?).

Take home:

All the high paying jobs are still safely ensconced in the native born population (or at least the vast majority are).

There seems to be underemployment/training at the entry/middle level for doctors.

All of this sems to be a result of more native born grads coming out of med schools and trying for all the speciality spots in the cool cities and the gmc wanting to make money off the phoren grads with their 2500 quid application fees for part 1 of the plab which is given multiple times a year in different countries.

The nhs crisis has a lot to do with funding/staffing cuts and little to do with brown doctors.

There is nothing that shocking about the nhs crisis. Most state funded health systems are in crises, like state funded railroads, universities, public works etc etc etc

Highly talented desi doctors should stay in their home countries and treat the common diseases that hurt the locals....why encourage a brain drain?

Just another trade unoins inspired attempt to win political points, by the looks of it (the outsourcing thing). Hey, the British screwed us for about two centuries, we'll find ways around this and keep screwing them, I'm sure :)

On the other hand, I'm worried about the shortage of skilled people in IT and elsewhere in India. Our companies are finding it harder to find enough people with the right set of skills for all the offshore projects - there have been some mega deals recently (including a part of an NHS project) - given that most of the engineering and and other technical colleges that have sprung up because of demand, are churning out average students. All said, India's outsourcing industry still makes a small fraction of the whole services industry, but that is all it takes to kick up a royal fuss.