Just want to point out that both the Senate bills and the House bill are terribly problematic and therefore the end result, if there is one, is likely to be really problematic as well (mostly by expanding grounds for deportation--including for green-card holders, not securing labor rights, and generally not providing for the welfare of immigrants in exchange for benefits for big business). If/when the Senate approves something, it will then go into conference committee with the House, at which point something like 10 old conservatives will make choices that affect tens of millions of people (documented and undocumented immigrants, their families--citizen or no, and everyone else).

That's why it's really important for people to show up in the streets today, tomorrow, and especially May 1--so something better than all that $hit gets passed. Otherwise, the 1.4 million deportations since '96 might be just a drop in the bucket.

I don't agree with the draconian measures of H.R.4437, but for those who came to this country illegaly and not because of ethnic/religious/political persecution, I say get in line buddy. If my father had to wait 16 - that's right 16 years, after filing for his relatives to come to the US, then y'all can go through the same hoops. And yes, I think resident-aliens who want to become citizens should have stricter guidelines smiliar to (but exactly like) the German requirements.

What is the solution, Open Borders ??

i agree with the sentiments of turbanhead. i was born in a third world country, i don't want to die in one.

quite a few south asian organizations have endorsed the public statement on immigration reform here.

I think resident-aliens who want to become citizens should have stricter guidelines smiliar to (but exactly like) the German requirements.

Since those tests are aimed at filtering out extremists, I applaud and propose we also apply them to the Bible Belt.

Razeeb (#4),

That hurts.
You really rub it in sometimes.
You know desis living in desiland are not that bad.
US took more than two centuries of independence (and a civil war)to reach where it is, cut some slack to us.

Manish (#6),

I don't think you can apply immigration laws to citizens.
In India, under no circumstance state can revoke citizenship of a born citizen.

Regards

Since those tests are aimed at filtering out extremists, I applaud and propose we also apply them to the Bible Belt.

a republic is not like a corporation, it is like islam, you come in but never go out. we can't empty our trash, so we need to control the possibility of future clutter build ups. citizenship is a contract sealed for generations, not until families are expandable.

i was naturalized in 1998, and it was a joke, the korean immigrant who interviewed me about american history and checked to see if i could speak english was barely intelligible, and during the swearing in the mexican families were basically having a picnic (dam, the cilantro smelled good) while some of the older russian dudes in the back were whipping out flasks of vodka to celebrate before the ceremony was finished. before reforming the undocumented system someone should really look at the documented track...but hey, perhaps things have changed since the INS was folded into the homeland security dept. :)

I agree with razib and turbanhead, but turbanhead:

Question 27 is typical of the test's tone: "Some people consider the Jews responsible for all the evil in the world and even claim they are behind the Sept. 11 attack in New York. What do you think about such suggestions?"

I don't know whether to laugh my ass off about how the question was phrased or stand in awe at Germany's progress.

While I'm against illegal immigration, I am also against all the provisions in the immigration reform bill. I know I wouldn't be here if my parent's didn't make it out here legally...but isn't there a better way to deal with illegal immigrant than these ridiculous provisions.

Does it still take 16 years for a foreigner to legally come to America? Surely reducing the lag time would partially help against illegal immigration.

That hurts. You really rub it in sometimes. You know desis living in desiland are not that bad. US took more than two centuries of independence (and a civil war)to reach where it is, cut some slack to us.

it wasn't meant in a mean spirit. i apologize if it was taken as such. according to divya's posts india is close to paradise, you keep yours and i'll keep mine :)

though seriously, i went to bangladesh 2 years ago after a long absence. there is something distinctly insiduous about being a prince among peons, better a pauper among peers (this actually goes against the grain of some behavorial economics, call me a freak). the quality of life that most of us enjoy here in the west is contingent upon the social capital built up over centuries of history. our nation is more than a contract put in place to arbitrate capitalist transctions between consenting adults, it is a cult of constitution.

in any case, look, as i like to say whenever people tear hair out over israel-palestine, 2.5 million people have died, been displaced or turned into refugees in the dem. republic of congo over the past 10 years. i think even i would have a somewhat hard time rejecting people who have walked through hell and lived to tell us about it, let them be our servile worker caste, the lawns need mowing and the dishes need washing, better than running from cannibalistic rebels. if you truly want the world's unwanted and huddled masses why open your hearts to those strong enough to run?

South Asians here ARE organizing - just got back from an amazing Town Hall meeting, more to come on that soon... South Asian Network will be holding a candle lit vigil at 6pm at the corner of Broadway and I think Cesar Chavez, as well as thousands of other immigrant community.

Can't find a rally? Go HERE - it has a list and a petition of rallies going on in your neighborhood.

From what I gathered, the bill is going through many revisions in the Senate side of the committee. I think we have two weeks for the bill to go through Senate. I do believe that a comprehensive immigration reform bill is needed, but I don't feel the options that are being given are the right solutions.

Does it still take 16 years for a foreigner to legally come to America? Surely reducing the lag time would partially help against illegal immigration.

Yes, and no. People forget they are dozens of ways to come to USA. Some of them are very fast - Athletes are made US citizens over-night before Olympic trials. Professors and medical professionals from overseas are brought on with all the paper work done on fast track. A tenured professor appointment can get a green card in less than 6 months. Not to talk about VonBraun and Alabama Rocket scientists, some of the top notch nuclear scientists from USSR were immigrated to US immediately after the iron curtain fell in '89 lest they disappear.

Asylum, marriage - all have different rules. If you bring in a business to US and/ or million dollars to US - you can walk in with whatever immigration status you want.

Turbanhead is talking about immigration through relative - that does take a long time.

Even most of the visitors on SM are second genners - do visit USCIS website sometimes.

I think South Asian should actively engage in Immigration debate right now.

We got my grandpa's visa in the mail about 2 months after he died.
What needs to be reformed is not people's attitudes toward coming here, but the immigration system itself: the paperwork needs to be processed faster (not to mention the fact that they need to check on the "living/dead" status of the people they're processing). I know nothing about the process, but it obviously needs to be changed. Where's the bill for that?

Just a heads' up that the "someone else" has some intersting blogposts on this:

Census crunching, the LA March and noting the school walkouts.

Like anti-war activism, I think it would be helpful to have some good, cohestive proposals on what kind of immigration regulation we do want. Otherwise I get lost after a while.

Razeeb (12#)

My earlier remark was meant in jest. India is not a paradise, Indians like me are trying to make best of what we got from previous generation(not all of which was bad).

Back to the immigration topic (in USA)

From what little I have read, there are two issues.

1) Whether the laws admitting immigration are just or not.
2) What should be done with alien who violate the immigration laws.

So far what I have seen is the emphasis is on 2nd, what about the first?

IMO the immigration should be allowed, if the benefit from immigration outweight the social cost plus economic cost.

I don't think there is anything inhumane with fencing the border, only I am not sure (from example of India)that it works.
Also in case there is a violation some slack can be cut depending on the conduct.

Regards

Sonia and others regarding the visa backlog issue - actually, the immigration proposals that advocates have been pushing include a provision that would eliminate the visa backlog. Currently, in the US, there are between 3 and 6 million visa applications that are stuck in the system.

There are bills that would address both legalization as well as the visa backlog - in fact, the four principles that immigrant rights advocates have laid out for immigration reform (see the South Asian organizational statement that Abhi links to in his post) includes the eliminaton of the visa backlog. The bill that addresses this squarely is the McCain-Kennedy bill. The immigration reform package that advocates have been proposing is comprehensive and broad. Unfortunately, Congress has not really been listening. Hopefully, the April 10th rallies will make a difference

I think it would be helpful to have some good, cohestive proposals on what kind of immigration regulation we do want.

i don't know about we, but i know about me :)

1) reduce numbers allowed in so that population can have a chance to stabilize (operationally, these means the population of california, new york, illinois and texas). say 200,000.

2) remove national quotas and 'diversity' lotteries. i have relatives who came because of 'diversity,' and trust me, there's a lot of loserish diversity you don't want!

3) prioritize those with money and education. let's suck out all the intellectual and monetary capital out of the rest of the world, this country is floating on a sea of debt and we need all the capable soldiers we can get our hands on when the foreigners call in their loans! and if we can get the plutocrats to move here, hell, they have an incentive in not letting this country go argentina.

4) fuck families. discourage the transplantation of villages via chain migration, select for cosmopolitan mavericks who have roarkian fantasies :)

5) build a high ass wall on the southern border. if we have to do it out of fairness, build a wall up north to keep the damn canadians out too! (no offense)

6) penalize the shit out of businesses who hire people without papers. sure, some people have nice ass papers, but set up a system to confirm the reality of SS numbers.

7) abolish birthright citizenship.

Stronger border controls is necessary for any reform to be effective. Government processing guest workers will allow the speeding train that is migrant labor to switch tracks from the illegal to legal avenues. But it will slow it down, unless the govt. devotes enough resources for processing migrants. If it slows down, you will still have border jumpers, and ultimately it undermines the reform. In today's global economy, we need these folks as much as they need us. However, one also needs to build incentive for someone to come here legally vs illegally.

Also, more resources are needed at the border to nail drug runners and smugglers who will still use the vast desert stretches to get their goods in. I don't think a wall has ever stopped anyone, but we need more resources. More agents on patrols and more technology giving us an edge.

Desi cabbies who are illegal probably just want to stay under the radar. Elements of the right and left in this country has primarily turned this into a latino issue. I gotta say though, groups that raised Mexican flags on flag poles, or ones that use signs that specifically call 'European Americans' land stealers from Native Americans aren't helping their causes. You want to sell America that you belong here? Nothing catches the imagination better than masses waving the American flag (which has happened).

For any effective immigration bill to work, all sides need to de-couple this from the racial lines (as hard it is). Far too many people on the right are worried about illegals affecting their 'lives' and 'culture'. Too late, look around. American culture has been changed and for the better. Similarly, folks who espouse to turn the former Mexican territories into Mexico again aren't welcome either. Lawmakers who get hung up on 'Amnesty' aren't being realistic.

Fundamentally, I'm not happy giving folks who broke the law knowing all the consequences that goes along with it a free pass. But one has to be realisitc. 11-20 million people can't be deported and sorting through who came here when is a mess the govt. is not equipped to handle and deal with. Sealing borders, opening up the guest worker program, and letting folks who are here already stay (executing it concurrently) is the only logical option. Doing one and not doing the others will undermine any real reform.

the April 10th rallies will make a difference

yeah might, who knows? but they'll scare the crap out of the trash we can't export.

In today's global economy, we need these folks as much as they need us

we need programmers & scientists. some economic efficiency and vibrancy will be lost with more expensive produce, unkempt lawns and closure of marginal restaurants, but not much.

ar too many people on the right are worried about illegals affecting their 'lives' and 'culture'. Too late, look around. American culture has been changed and for the better.

telemundo? :)

Abhi - honest post, and good points. I'll be in the streets tomorrow for a lot of reasons.

GujuDude (20 #)

I gotta say though, groups that raised Mexican flags on flag poles, or ones that use signs that specifically call 'European Americans' land stealers from Native Americans aren't helping their causes

I agree, what were they thinking ?

Regards

7) abolish birthright citizenship.

Damn Razib, throws everything about what we know to be a citizen on it's side. (is that how that saying goes?) Citizens as a commodity to increase the productivity of the US, and if you are not productive you are out? The new citizen definition? citizen not connected to a nation state...going back to pre-french revolution...

I agree with Saheli, these reform debates can get confusing, I wish someone would give me a decent proposed policy instead of telling me why all these reforms are wrong.

I LIED - the vigil tomorrow in LA is at 5 pm, not 6pm! Sorry!

Razeeb (19#)

7) abolish birthright citizenship.

StarShip Troopers anyone ?
Are you a Robert Heinlein fan ??

Regards

Girls on telemundo's soaps are hot. Not that I watch em, I've merely flipped through them at times. Yea.

in any case, look, as i like to say whenever people tear hair out over israel-palestine, 2.5 million people have died, been displaced or turned into refugees in the dem. republic of congo over the past 10 years. i think even i would have a somewhat hard time rejecting people who have walked through hell and lived to tell us about it, let them be our servile worker caste, the lawns need mowing and the dishes need washing, better than running from cannibalistic rebels. if you truly want the world's unwanted and huddled masses why open your hearts to those strong enough to run?

?) Citizens as a commodity to increase the productivity of the US, and if you are not productive you are out?

interesting you say that...all the pro-documentation people i've heard talk on the radio always add a large (preponderant) dollop of economic talking points straight out of CATO!!! no, the measures i propose might reduce economic growth some, but increase the quality of life for those i care about and myself (i live in a state with controlled growth boundaries and such). the point is we can't export the economically unproductive or the socially unpalatable. i'm not a big fan of crackers dancing with snakes, but do we want to add mexican peasants who see the virgin mary in the face of a melting snowman to the docket of the fellow american loons? we have a moral obligation to them once they are citizens because they are our fellow citizens. but, i am not a universalist, i don't want the tired and huddled masses of the rest of the world, i want the best and the brightest. but, if you are going to make the humanitarian case, then there are many causes out there. light a candle for the children of the congo, not the undocumented nicaraguan dishwasher, is his life dearer because he is nearer? yes, perhaps...but then you lose me with the humanitarian stuff, i care far more about the near as well.

Are you a Robert Heinlein fan ??

not too much. more asimov myself.

Our larger community has been pigeon-holed right now as only being interested in a few selected issues.

yup, u couldnt have said it better. and might i be bold enough to add, rather self-interested and rather selfish issues at that. this is going to be a very long and hard fought, yes, fought, thread.

as some have already indicated to basically credify abhi's statement above, it seems to me, that people who are "in" want to keep the others out, regardless of whether they arrived here as legal or not. people i know who came as students, stayed as illegals, doing work outside of their original brief,then managed to get themselves legal again, have been the most ardent supporters of keeping the new lot out. people whose livelihoods are very unlikely to be challenged by newcomers in any way, still, very vocal against the "riff-raff", their words, not mine, coming in these days.

the argument that "well, i did it legally, so must you" is a load of, sorry, but crap. let me be clear here, i live in the US, legally, went to school and work legally, but by no means am i a gc holder or citizen. when my tenure here is done, i'm packing up and moving on to the next country. i have not been adversely affected by immigraton reforms thus far, and i wont be by this one either. but to hear the ones who got in say no to others when so many people with newly started lives in our communities did it illegally,makes my blood boil.

shear hypocrisy. these latest reforms are knee-jerk reactions, and this too will pass after they have calmed down the latest xenophobia against the for-ge-nars, specially ones who are brown, because i doubt they will seriously deport a bunch of brits and germans and spaniards or italians for overstaying their visas, it will be us brown lot.

gc status or citizenship is no protection either. they can haul ur ass off when and as they want, and all they have to do is retrolegislate that all legal immigration from country x (read bangladesh or nigeria..etc) is null and void, and then u too will wish someone stood up and voiced support.

once again, another good post a., lets see the comments roll...

5) build a high ass wall on the southern border. if we have to do it out of fairness, build a wall up north to keep the damn canadians out too! (no offense)

Razib,
Every good analysis (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/08/60minutes/main1108476.shtml) I have seen on the immigration issue thinks this is a bad idea. In addtion to being a massive waste of tax payer money it isn't likely to stop the flow of immigrants one bit. What it will do is set up a racist and dehumanizing system like at the check points in the West Bank.

From the CBS story:
[Fortified fences like the one in Nogales, Arizona, protect only about five percent of the U.S.-Mexican border.

Bonner thinks that the number of illegal migrants has actually gone up since the barrier went up. Does he think the millions spent on the fence were a waste of money?

"I think that’s a fair assessment," says Bonner.

The U.S. government has spent about $20 billion on border control over the past 12 years. But Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo insists that is just not enough.

"If you only put the fence for this five miles of border, people will go around it, naturally. You have to secure your borders!" says Rep. Tancredo.

He recommends sealing off the entire border, building fences. How much more should the government spend?

"Whatever it takes," Tancredo says. "Billions more. Billions more. Ed, why not? It is our job. It is what the federal government should be doing!"]

I wish someone would give me a decent proposed policy instead of telling me why all these reforms are wrong.

I think McCain-Kennedy proposal is pretty decent. It seems most realistic.

On longer view, US does need a special immigration policy for scientists and engineers (even more robust than the existing one) to keep them competitive, on same war footing as space race days. China is catching up big time - I think what they (Chinese) seriously lack is a creative climate for innovation but still.........

RE: #19

Razib, can you explain what you mean by this a little better? Can this really be as cold and condescending as it sounds?

cold yes, condescending, perhaps.

my point is simple, i hear two primary refrains about undocumented

1) we need them economically

2) it is a humanitarian issue that they live on the margins

now, as some have noted, a large % (perhaps the majority) of the undocumented are from mexico. this is a nation with a per capita GDP of $10,000. india has a per capita GDP of $3,400, and bangladesh a little less than $2,000. i think if you do the utilitarian calculus that citizens from the latter two nations would accrue more aggregate happiness from being inducted into the menial guest worker caste than mexicans, who come from a middle income nation. but, i think the best argument is to bring over africans from war torn nations, since they would accrue the greatest utilitarian good.

but actually...though i do have some humanitarian sentiments, i'm sitting here eating an orange (a good one at that) and typing on a computer and baiting people on a community weblog at 11:25 PM rather than doing something to help the people of the world. so yeah, i guess i am kind of cold-hearted. now, if any of you threaten my cat, i'm up off my ass in at a moment's notice. be warned, you know what motivates me!

Abhi (32#)

What it will do is set up a racist and dehumanizing system like at the check points in West Bank.

Isn't comparision of US-Mexican border with Israel- Palestinian border a little overstretched.
However you do have a point when you say that it can not be implemented in practice.

Kush (33#)

I seriously doubt that China will be able to catch up with US anytime soon.
Can India do this, I wish.

Regards

It's a difficult question really. On one hand, immigration has been the formula for the USA's success for centuries. On the other hand, the problems associated with illegal immigration are real as well. The usual solution offered is to say that only the worse off (political asylum seekers, refugees etc.) and the best off (doctors, informaticiens, etc.) should be let in. What about the rest of the world? Don't they have a right to choice as well?
If we just pull back from this debate and get an overview of the subject: the earth and all it's natural beauty were carved up by man a few winks ago (in terms of mankind's total history) and called countries, and all those within those lines at that point of time were made prisoners within those lines. Who gives us the right to decide where man can set foot and where he cannot? I look forward to a world where the tyranny and arbitrariness of visas is a thing of the past.

On longer view, US does need a special immigration policy for scientists and engineers (even more robust than the existing one) to keep them competitive, on same war footing as space race days. China is catching up big time - I think what they (Chinese) seriously lack is a creative climate for innovation but still.........

amen! hold the trash, but pile up the good recyclables.

two questions---
1. how many indians would you expect are illegally in the US? does anyone have a ballpark? i know, for example, that the number of chinese in the US illegally is high, and it seems to be common knowledge in the chinese community. from what i gather, there are even standard rates for smuggling people here from china, an entire support structure---places you can stay once you are here as well as jobs you can do.

2. (little unrelated) how many indians care for a citizenship (as opposed to residency)? from what i see here, a lot of newcomers i meet are not particularly bothered abt it.

@14, kush
re: tenured professors---it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured :). so unless you are an imminent gold medal winning olympic athlete, it does take 15+ years to become a citizen.

india is the best! let's apply some eastern wisdom.

abhi, i'm skeptical about the skepticism about the wall, but perhaps you know something i don't. we won't know that it fails until we try. as it is, i think you are on the side of history. our population will balloon to 500 million and we will shift toward a corporatist state.

re: tenured professors---it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured :). so unless you are an imminent gold medal winning olympic athlete, it does take 15+ years to become a citizen.

don't people get sponsored immediately when they get a tenure track spot?

I look forward to a world where the tyranny and arbitrariness of visas is a thing of the past.

i'll see you in the gated community then brother.

taz and saheli,

there isn't a comprehensive proposal out there for a variety of reasons (most notably because a bunch of immigration policy f@#ks in dc decided to make a compromise with mccain knowing that it would lead to something worse without even trying to mobilize to shift the debate--largely because they're so disconnected). It's probably the case that for Congress to pass nothing right now would be better than to pass anything they have on the table (although you might want to look at Sheila Jackon Lee's bill).

However, there are elements of different proposals that are coming together; we may just have to wait for the movement to put itself in a position of enough strength to get these things through (which is why it's SO important for people to show up in the streets)--because it not only has to fight back against the Senate and House bills right now, but it has to do what you're suggesting too. Here's a sampling of ideas from different groups (i'm sure there are others):

break the chains (chinese staff and workers association, nmass, aaldef, about a dozen other groups) want a repeal of employer sanctions. so this is coming from a place of wanting stronger worker rights protections. nmass has also supported (and maybe break the chains as a whole?) a "rolling registry" which would basically eliminate these periodic discussions about how to deal with the "broken" immigration system and instead create a system where people who have been in the country for several years would automatically be eligible for greencards. i've heard other people advocate this idea.

people i talked to in the one demonstration I went to wanted green cards immediately (one lady was charitable enoguh to say that immediately would be impractical, so three months from now would be okay :) That's also the demand of the May 1st action I linked above (which is being pushed by the people who organized the LA demonstration). No one I spoke to supported a guestworker program that would lead to green cards 5-10-15 years down the road.

i think the families for freedom / immigrant defense project line has been to repeal the provisions in the 1996 laws that further criminalize immigarnts.

there are others with different demands to advocate for immigrants.

So it seems that no one (or collectively, everyone) has put the full package together yet, but there are a number of separate proposals that could ideally get combined into an immigrant rights package. generally speaking, there's been a fair amount of criticism of the bills on the lack of worker rights protections (from immigrant communities in action, break the chains, drum major institute, friends of farmworkers, afl-cio, etc.) that i see at the core of a lot of the opposition. aside from the employer sanctions thing (which i still don't fully understand how it would actually protect he rights of migrant workers though i can understand the argument about how it historically led to the deterioration of rights), i haven't heard many strong proactive arguments for the worker rights protections.

So this is an inchoate progressive agenda--it's not something that everyone who supports immigrants going to agree on all aspects of. The point is that these kinds of ideas assembled together should be the leftmost pole of the immigration debate, not a sellout bill that allows big business to exploit the f@#k out of immigrant workers with the stamp of approval from immigrant rights organizations.

it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured :)

byteword,

Yes, I know and that too if one gets a tenured position immediately.

However, I have seen many cases where a fresh academic appointment/ offer from oversees is made to someone, and the EB-1 (Extra Ordinary Category - 1) / NIW (National Interest waiver) combo used to fast track the whole thing, the green card part.

I just wanted to say there are ways of moving fast, if there are parties backing you up (just prove that your research helps homeland security). I used some of the combos - and therefore, I am up on terminology and even then things can be really slow, unless you are headed for olympic medal (as you said).

2. (little unrelated) how many indians care for a citizenship (as opposed to residency)? from what i see here, a lot of newcomers i meet are not particularly bothered abt it.

You are totally correct- no figures cuz no one likes to fund SAA research (ahem) but word on the voting right front is that since SAA have a low rate of assimilation (i.e. getting citizenship) it is harder to fight for their voting rights. So part one of that is getting them to become citizens.

Razib, in your perfect world, how would you define US citizen and who would be excluded?

Personally, with the immigration debate- I'm conflicted with the words of illegal immigrants- it seems that the history of exclusionary immigration practice - it all just seems unfair. It's late, and too late for me to be articulate on this- but if we didn't get the right to be naturalized until 1956 in the US, didn't that make us some version of an illegal immigrant for all those years before that?

Just read that the amount of international students coming to study in the US has decreased (in relation to importing educated immigrants)...

(All y'all are up this late for a wonky debate?)

All y'all are up this late for a wonky debate?

It's kind of hot isn't it? Makes me think that the "Sepia Destiny" idea might help a lot of people :)

Just read that the amount of international students coming to study in the US has decreased (in relation to importing educated immigrants)...

Yes, That is a fall out of post 9/11 visa crack-down but it is picking again. Lovely senator, Barbara Boxer wanted a moratorium of 6 months on international students immediately after 9/11.

If you read Science, the US administration is getting really nervous about it. In fact, there is talk of federal graduate fellowships for international students (outside of Fulbright) for the first time.

Taz, it's not discriminatory if it applies to everyone. I do think the current immigration law is broken. If there really is a need for cheap foreign labor, create a cheap foreign labor visa and let anyone apply for it. Sneaking it in as amnesty for illigals, smacks of geographic discrimination at the very least and xenophobia at worst.

Razib, in your perfect world, how would you define US citizen and who would be excluded?

someone naturalized, or someone born to a US citizen. i'd exclude everyone else. if you mean who i'd exclude from the immigrant pool, i would bias it against people without college educations and with a poor grasp of english. but there are exceptions to every rule, i am fine with some slots for exceptional people who are only secondary school educated.

yes, the system is unfair. in fact, i do in my heart cheer for illegals who are making a good go of it, i'm human. but in my head i believe this is a nation of laws which emerged organically out of the culture of the anglo-saxon waves of settlement prior to 1776 (puritans, planters, scots-irish and middle colonials), subsequently reshaped, but fundamentally not remade, but later waves of immigrants (germans gave us beer, the irish gave us beer, the italians gave us wine, etc.).

Sneaking it in as amnesty for illigals, smacks of geographic discrimination at the very least and xenophobia at worst.

life isn't fair. don't hate on the latinos for having the good fortune of being placed south of el norte :)

oh, and we'll always been geoist. i believe the quotas have always been WAY higher for western hemisphere immigration than for eastern hemisphere immigration.

Not hating. The existence of predominant biases do not condone the maintenance of status quo. Or, just cuz it's always been broken, it doesn't mean you shouldn't fix it.

If "care for citizenship" can be measured in rate of naturalization- according to research by Paul Ong, Asian Indians have a naturalization rate of 26% for 6-10yrs in the US, 53% for 11-15 yrs, and 68% 16-20yrs. [From a book called Reframing the Immigration Debate published by UCLA]

If the immigration laws are constantly changing, doesn't that inherently make it discriminatory?

Not hating. The existence of predominant biases do not condone the maintenance of status quo. Or, just cuz it's always been broken, it doesn't mean you shouldn't fix it.

how many marchers can you move senor? :)

Is the post's author sure he wants to rely on Wikipedia as a source?

This is the first time I've heard that the children of illegal aliens would become wards of the state, and I would have heard that before if it were true. Should you really trust Wikipedia entries?

The Georgia illegal aliens rally was organized by a former Mexican Consul General. ANSWER is involved in several of the upcoming illegal alien rallies. Are the readers of this site certain they want to march down that particular road?

BTW, this is the second time I've commented here; the first time someone said they'd visited my site and thought I sounded like Pat Buchanan. Actually, a comparison with this guy is more accurate.

how many marchers can you move senor? :)

Depends... does the crowd include pretty peurto rican girls prone to persuasion by alliteration?

life isn't fair.

no kidding--that's why around 500,000 people marched in Dallas today :) And they'll keep doing it unless someone subverts them (most likely by passing a bill).

i believe this is a nation of laws which emerged organically out of the culture of the anglo-saxon waves of settlement prior to 1776 (puritans, planters, scots-irish and middle colonials), subsequently reshaped, but fundamentally not remade, but later waves of immigrants (germans gave us beer, the irish gave us beer, the italians gave us wine, etc.).

Are you drinking? ;) It's funny how you left out how many of those emigrants came without permission and were allowed to vote nonetheless (sometimes even as noncitizens), the decimation of the original American Indian populations who probably have interesting thoughts about this debate, abnd the forced immigration of Black people as slaves--all of which were significant features in the building of the "nation of laws." And I think Black people have contributed at least as much to American culture as any other group--from W.E.B. Dubois to Biggie. They certainly contributed to almost every single person commenting on this post being here; I would assume that the 1965 immigration laws that legalized Asian immigration and citizenship probably wouldn't have passed outside the context of a broader civil rights movement.

Anyway, when the laws are f@#ked up, you change them. That's the way things should work. Your head is lying to you razib :)

does the crowd include pretty peurto rican girls prone to persuasion by alliteration

they are born americanos, what do you they care? :)

Dude, in comment #31, really called this one: let's get ready to ruummble!!

these latest reforms are knee-jerk reactions, and this too will pass after they have calmed down the latest xenophobia against the for-ge-nars, specially ones who are brown, because i doubt they will seriously deport a bunch of brits and germans and spaniards or italians for overstaying their visas, it will be us brown lot.

Yes. I entirely agree. My family came here as asylum seekers from Sri Lanka, realized how impossible that would be, so we went the family route... my citizenship-holding grandmother sponsored my mother and she sponsored the rest of us. Until that time we did any and every job that came our way, and lived well below the poverty line for about seven years. We paid taxes, got nothing in return, and my national merit scholarship was denied at first because I was a green-card holder, not a citizen.

Y'all remember Andrew Dice Clay? I can never forget seeing him on TV, about two months after we immigrated, joking about all the "shit-colored" people in the airport arrivals. He was the most popular comedian at the time, unless I'm mistaken. Wonderful to see that TV audience chuckle and chortle.

What the hell is "riff-raff"? If those other immigrants decide to eat a snack in the waiting room, or celebrate with a shot of vodka, how exactly does that make them inferior people, Razib? The INS process is utterly dehumanizing, and if you got through it by holding your nose above the rest as you waited (and waited, and waited and waited) in that cramped waiting room...well, to each his own, I guess. But you do realize you imply a Eurocentric yardstick? If perfect English and a stiff-upper lip are the best qualifications for citizenship, most Americans should have theirs revoked.

My favorite reading material on this issue is Alien Nation by Peter Brimelow. As a recent English immigrant himself, Brimelow takes it upon himself to tell Americans that they are good-hearted chumps, suckered by all this talk of "multiculturalism" and "plurality." Correlations are ever so wittily passed off as causality (including that still-beloved saw about % of black men in jail) as he fears for his "blue eyed blonde" son's future among the "brown hordes."

And, lest you think he's some gauche racist, he assures you that this is simply verifiable fact, for what is he if not an immigrant himself?! If HE twinkled into this country so easily...well!! So has everyone else, and, you know, Americans are jsut lucky that he's the sort of guy who puts his self-interest aside to point out the flaws in the system. America's problems are all traced back to 1965 immigration reform....cuz, that's when this country went to hell right? With the riots and the hippies and stuff? In the good olde days when North Europeans were the only sort allowed in (3% of the country of origin and all that) America was fine!! Thriving!!

I see the logic in the argument that illegal immigration negatively affects the lowest economic brackets by creating artificial wage suppression. I like the idea of the guest-worker program, but see the possibily for so many loopholes that I need to read more about it before venturing a solid opinion. As for this bill... I'm just going to wait until some dirt-digging expose reveals the politicians who voted for it who have nannies and gardners and cleaning ladies with unpaid social security taxes...

It's funny how you left out how many of those emigrants came without permission and were allowed to vote nonetheless

actually, the puritans (for example) deported the illiterate, the indigent, and discouraged the emigration of nobles. they vetted potential colonists and sampled out of the top half of the socioeconomic brackets of east anglia. and look how great massachusetts turned out! in contrast, the scotch-irish "crackers" were dirt poor and could barely afford their passage...and look how appalachia turned out. hm....

the decimation of the original American Indian populations who probably have interesting thoughts about this debate

that decimation was a force of nature (the original native population lacked HLA diversity against eurasian pathogens). the reason the settlement was easy was because they died off in large part before 95% of the settlers showed up. not that it makes it any more moral....

And I think Black people have contributed at least as much to American culture as any other group--from W.E.B. Dubois to Biggie.

perhaps we should show a little gratitude to black americans then and not contribute to the erosion of their working class with the wholesale importation of an industrious and lower wage competitor class? anyway, 49% of black americans opposed amnesty vs. 43% who favored it a few years back, so if you want to play the "black people like us" card, go ahead....

how exactly does that make them inferior people, Razib? The INS process is utterly dehumanizing, and if you got through it by holding your nose above the rest as you waited (and waited, and waited and waited) in that cramped waiting room...well, to each his own, I guess. But you do realize you imply a Eurocentric yardstick? If perfect English and a stiff-upper lip are the best qualifications for citizenship, most Americans should have theirs revoked.

hey cic, are you a mind reader. since when did i say "inferior"? anyway, yes, i like eurocentric yardsticks. i don't deny it. this is a western country and i want it to stay that way. i can always move back to bangladesh if i miss old world diversity :) if they deport me because i'm brown, that sucks, but i won't starve in b-desh (though i'd have to learn to read that language i guess).

that decimation was a force of nature (the original native population lacked HLA diversity against eurasian pathogens). the reason the settlement was easy was because they died off in large part before 95% of the settlers showed up.

Not, of course, that smallpox blankets had anything to do with it.

Hello (57#),

I don't think that It is a good idea to question the history of Americans (or Honkies), if you want to make a pitch for illegal immigrants.

Regards

Not, of course, that smallpox blankets had anything to do with it.

cic, that was quantitatively trivial. 1491 is a decent lit survey if a bit poppy.

if they deport me because i'm brown, that sucks, but i won't starve in b-desh (though i'd have to learn to read that language i guess).

I've never known you to be glib before now Razib. You are man of multifacted chromosomes, apparently.

I'll remember your words next time I hear about the latest famine in Bangladesh. Damn..something must really be wrong with those people (genetic predisposition to early apoptosis?) if they're droppin' like flies and they even speak the language!

@41 razib and 44 kt,

these days, the way it works in academia is this: you get a h-1 very quickly without trouble (you do not fall in the 60k-odd quota). then the univ applies for your gc. also, and this is not just in academics, many times immigration lawyers do *not* recommend the 'exceptional' eb-1 category, presumably since there is more potential for mischief and unnecessary delays by the immigration officials (esp if you are from iran, etc.).

but while, like you both say, you can expect the gc to through without too much trouble if you are in academia, it is not necessarily faster.

i don't know abt the national interest waiver, or what happens if your research is for homeland security. but then these days, every blue-sky research proposal from linguistics to biology to circuits claims to defend america against terrorists. don't want to fund my large-deviation-analysis of markov-chain-monte-carlo-methods for volume-estimation? terrorists will come and get you. :) you can replace the hyphenated phrases with your pet topics, and voila you have a new research proposal for the nsf.

citizenship by naturalization is no different if you are in academia.

I'll remember your words next time I hear about the latest famine in Bangladesh. Damn..something must really be wrong with those people (genetic predisposition to early apoptosis?) if they're droppin' like flies and they even speak the language!

bangladesh hasn't had a famine in a while. things aren't that bad there, and people are having fewer kids and women are working in the garment factories (my relatives complain about not being able to get servants because of walmart). and yes, something is really wrong with those people from where i stand...but i a lot of them like that way. i'm eurocentric, but not a universalist in implementation.

re: 66,
i forgot a disclaimer. i am no lawyer, so that post is just my perception. you should take it with a pinch of salt.

i'm eurocentric, but not a universalist in implementation.

Well, that's a relief. Cuz I generally like you Razib, and would hate to think that you didn't realize that you don't measure up in the eyes of the sort of people who generally wield eurocentric yardsticks.

and would hate to think that you didn't realize that you don't measure up in the eyes of the sort of people who generally wield eurocentric yardsticks.

well, we are using different definitions of "eurocentric" :) the heart matters more than blood.

ah, but the blood's easier to measure, isn't it? Phenotypes and all that?

@53 taz,
thanks. re: the statistics--i assume they mean 26% of those who have stayed 6-10 years are naturalized (or applied for it), 53% of those who have stayed 11-15 years and 68% of those who stayed 16-20 years, right?

if so, how many stay more than 10 years, more than 15 years, etc?

ok i'm too sleepy now.

perhaps we should show a little gratitude to black americans then and not contribute to the erosion of their working class with the wholesale importation of an industrious and lower wage competitor class? anyway, 49% of black americans opposed amnesty vs. 43% who favored it a few years back, so if you want to play the "black people like us" card, go ahead....

Razib, i actually was playing the "Black people and American Indians shouldn't be written out of U.S. history" card. In any case, I agree that the immigrant rights movement should pay more respect to the needs and concerns of Black Americans...but that means working with them, not conceding your own welfare because some Black people are xenophobic. For example, instead of supporting the business-friendly bills in front of congress, one might support something that actually offered real labor protections--like an immediate amnesty, but any number of other things could substitute or are also needed. I'm not even going to address your point that the entirety of the destruction of American Indians was due to genetic inability to resist illness (though that was obviously a part of it). Just look up Manifest Destiny when you get a chance.

There are bills that would address both legalization as well as the visa backlog - in fact, the four principles that immigrant rights advocates have laid out for immigration reform (see the South Asian organizational statement that Abhi links to in his post) includes the eliminaton of the visa backlog. The bill that addresses this squarely is the McCain-Kennedy bill. The immigration reform package that advocates have been proposing is comprehensive and broad. Unfortunately, Congress has not really been listening. Hopefully, the April 10th rallies will make a difference

Immigrant rights advocate, I'm glad you like immigrant rights, but your analysis is off. First of all, there isn't uniformity of opinion among advocates. Secondly, even the monolithic opinions that have been coming forth from "immigrant rights groups" have been shifting in response to the show of force by...actual immigrants--and rightly so. Thirdly, those demands are still not really in accord with what the few people I've talked to who are actually undocumented have asked for, or with groups that have more systemic analyses of aspects of the problem (for example, here's more information from Immigrant Defense Project on what these bills would actually do in terms of deportation).

Finally, McCain-Kennedy was never plausible as it stood because it started out as a compromise and then proceeded to go downhill from there (some of its basic ideas are currently incorporated into the horrible comrpomise that the Senate was reported to have reached); anyone who supported it either didn't understand the process by which bills become laws or was willing to sacrifice immigrants to get something, anything through Congress, regardless of whether the end result would be an improvement.

The provisions that "immigrant advocates" in DC were boosting--the guestworker program and the "earned legalization"--amount to making current undocumented people and future migrants wait for another 5-10-15 years before getting green card status, working in the meantime in a stiutation that makes their immigration status contingent on their employment, and in other ways basically makes them wholly controlled by the business entities that want them here, but want them controlled. That's one of the reasons the Drum Major Policy Institute, Friends of Farmworkers, Chinese Staff and Workers Association, National Mobilization Against Sweatshops, and a whole bunch of other progressive peopple don't support McCain-Kennedy and why many people with a lot to lose from further deterioration of workers rights (like working class citizens of all colors) are listening to xenophobes like Lou Dobbs instead of immigrant rights advocates.

All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.

!!! This is nuts!!!

though that was obviously a part of it

it was a preponderant part of it, direct genocide was mop up. most of the fertile areas of the west (eg., the willimate valley) "emptied" out before the 1840s when the large contingents of whites arrived. in fact, some regions were becoming reforested (the natives burned regularly to prune, you a shift in pollen type in the late 18th century as trees replace grass). as a contrast, look at the highlands of peru, the indigenous majority remains in part because spanish women had extremely high miscarriage rates at such elevations, and tropical diseases gained little traction and the population bounced back quickly enough.

this is not to deny the brutality of the invasion and conquest of the new world, but it seems plausible that ~90% of the native population died because of massive plagues which moved ahead of the main wave with itinerant traders and the various networks. such mortality rates shouldn't surprise that much, the black plague killed 1/3 of europeans in a generation and this is a eurasian population that was heavily innoculated with tens of thousands of years of transcontinental pathogens. it has almost certainly happened before, with the neolithic revolution, and it is happening in the andaman islands now (though vaccination is mitigating the pathogenic assault somewhat).

in any case, this is OT and not really relevant to the rest of the thread, but the point is that the facts are what they are. you can draw whatever conclusions you want from them.

@mina, #74

why so? legally they *are* citizens, since anyone who is registered as born in the US is.

so, if the kids are not taken back by the parents the state has to look after them. if the kids do go back, they are just citizens who will come back when they are old enough. it is not as if people will come to the US illegally to deliver kids. it is easier to fake a birth certificate than to risk life and limb.

Kind of scared that I'm gonna sound like a crazy sociologist version of the mad scientist here but what do people think of the idea that the reluctance shown by educated (read: wealthier) immigrants to help out illegal (read: poor) immigrants not just in other communities, but within our own, might be a sign of colonisation-by-wealth?

All that really seems to be going on is that people have replaced race with wealth as the factor which determines whether someone is an inferior/superior person or not. Hence the reluctance (by some, not all) from other immigrant communities to help Mexicans and the Mexican-American community on this issue. I'm an Indian New Zealander and I'm not sure about Indian-Americans (most of my rellies live in the States) but over here the doctors would rather align themselves with mainly European doctors than with the poor shopkeeper, even if it means sometimes allowing racial discrimination to run riot among people who come here illegally but take up the good old fob jobs driving our taxis, serving our burgers and filling up petrol in our cars.

If all we have done with our post-colonial identity is learn to replace racial discrimination with wealth discrimination (and I know these two are so interlinked it sounds weird to separate them and I probably shouldn't) - there shouldn't just be white guilt but brown guilt too. In the past few years the Indian economy has boomed but its only the middle and upper classes like us who've benefitted, I know that's a 'duh' point but just think its kind of sad that once the colonisation ended we've just internalised the 'divide and conquer' rule onto how we see ourselves and our view of other communities.

Yes, class issues have and will always be around. But it would be great if we could see the potential strength of a united immigrant voice, particularly in the post-September 11 age. Money and wealth might buy you half-acceptance into a wealthy, predominantly white world but all I know is no one's gonna check anyone's wallet before they do terrorist searches at airports.

Please everyone try to make it out to a rally today -- weather looks good too, at least here in NYC.

Regarding the Senate bill, it's important to note it now has been compromised to death -- and that from day one it has included pretty much all of the really bad enforcement provisions that already are in Sensenbrenner's bill. While people seem excited to get some comprehensive legislation through, I think that some progressive folks have forgotten that there will be a conference committee and negotiations with the House -- and that Frist has sold the Senate down the river in that process many times before (most recently in the REAL ID Act). At this point, the issue in the Senate is all about procedure -- and three cheers to Senator Reid for taking a stand.

No more compromising with ourselves! Let's just get out of this process for this year doing as little damage as possible and then move on to the election.

I say get in line buddy.

Turbanhead, I understand the sentiment, but the "earned legalization" provisions in various reform proposal still involving a pretty long line (16 years would actually be in the ballpark for many) and many hoops before anyone can obtain permanent residence. That's why it's not correct to characterize these proposals as "amnesty." Moreover, to point out once again, illegal immigration in this country is really a construct as much as anything else -- an artifact of a policy that sets legal immigration too low to correspond to the economic and sociological realities of migration. Would you direct the same kind of resentment at people speeding at 55 MPH on an interstate that had the speed limit of 25 MPH?

Since there has been some comments on GreenCard - let me mention that due to retrogression, GCs for Indian and Chinese nationals are being delayed by 3-4 years right now. This is irrespective of whether you are in academia or industry - the fast-tracking involves only the initial steps in the application - the final adjustment of status is where the bottleneck is.

This just to get green cards - which you typically start applying for after 1-2 years on H1B visa. During this period, you face an extremely uncertain future, are bound to the company (and the regional location) you are working for and are restricted in your foreign travels (you have to go your home-country to get your H1B visa renewed every year after your initial 6-year limit is up). During this period you are paying taxes as well as Social Security and Medicare, of which you don't see a single penny if your GC application is rejected for some reason. After the GC, it is a 6 year wait for citizenship. So that makes it ~ 11 years for most people, six of them spent rather uncertainly.

I may be selfish, but after going through so many hoops to come to the US, study and work here legally and then going through many more hoops (not to mention the monetary expenses for all the legal work) to obtain just a permanant residency, I am not too sympathetic to the 'guest worker' program for 'illegals'. My primary beef is against all these protests - since lost in all the shouting, is the sorry situation of the legal immigrants. That said, I do not agree with much of the house bill provisions calling for pnitive actions and deportation of all illegals.
More detailed discussion of my opinions here.

All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.

And of course, they'll grow up to be the loyal, productive US citizens the Govt is so trying to create.

Just because some indians are illegal means we all have to rally for legalizing the status of people who voluntarily broke the law ? Sorry, but I am a first generation immigrant and I did it legally. Perhaps immigration criteria needs to be altered and thats a valid debate, but there is simply no excuse for rewarding grown men and women who willingly violate US law. Period. Just because he wears a turban or has a shade of brown skin does not make me his partner in crime. South Asians are wise to not rally for illegals...it makes us look incredibly ungrateful to a country that has benefited us incredibly and has treated us quite fairly (at least for the past 2 generations)

BongoP'o'ndit (comment #80) makes some good points. I myself have some friends and relatives in the U.S. who immigrated recently and are struggling with incredible Green Card delays (six years since the approval, in some cases).

But I would argue that the current conservative crusade against illegal immigrants also harms and endangers people who have legal status. Particularly we should be thinking of people who are in the U.S. legally, but who encounter difficulties along the way, or who make mistakes in the process and fall out of status. This isn't just about a wall; it's also about what happens at Customs at JFK, and about the attitudes of people in many branches of government and social service to all immigrants.

I think a part of our unique platform as Desis should be a focus on the abject bureaucratic failure that is the USCIS: all the ways that it makes people's lives miserable.

naturally as Indians we are programmed to watch from the sidelines.

But I would argue that the current conservative crusade against illegal immigrants also harms and endangers people who have legal status. Particularly we should be thinking of people who are in the U.S. legally, but who encounter difficulties along the way, or who make mistakes in the process and fall out of status. This isn't just about a wall; it's also about what happens at Customs at JFK, and about the attitudes of people in many branches of government and social service to all immigrants.

Amardeep has shown a very important point in the above. The general anti-immigrant climate affects everyone. The same way, in the South-Asian v/s Indian debate one of the central argument is that for a third party there is no difference between different SAs .. the same way a generally anti-immigrant (legal or illegal) climate would make life difficult for legals as for a "third party" often time there is no "difference".

Kingsley wrote:

"I do think the current immigration law is broken. If there really is a need for cheap foreign labor, create a cheap foreign labor visa and let anyone apply for it. Sneaking it in as amnesty for illigals, smacks of geographic discrimination at the very least and xenophobia at worst."

This is another KEY issue. There is no way for unskilled people to get to the US. So the talk of get in "line" is unfair. Geographic discrimination is at the CORE of american immigration policy. Thats what Desi Pioneers like Bhagat S. Thind tried via a supreme court case to get citizenship.

tashie, it must be the clean nz air or something, or perhaps the LOTResque scenescape, or maybe even th efunny funny accent, but i not only couldnt agree with you more, THANK god there are people out there who open their eyes long enough to see the incredible injustice we ourselves do to our own kin. people at home treat the vast majority of the citizenry far worse then the colonist ever did. the colonist came to steal, oppress, enjoy the fruits of our labours, and lord it over weaker, ununified communities... i cannot figure out why we have been doing it... worse kind of greed i guess...

Shiva, i almost choked when i read ur comment # 84, ur not from nz as well r u?

=)

Immigrants in US, including illegal ones, are hard working families with considerable effects on US as a whole (economy, jobs creation etc). Some of the jobs that illegal immigrants take on are jobs that Americans dont want to do. Had the immigrant population become a liability to the country then these drastic steps would probaly make sense. It is not the case. Thus, these hardworking, albeit illegal families, should not be considered criminals. Guest worker programs make sense to me.

I, however, dont think that these changes affect most South asians. Whatever points that have been highlighted here (like green card issues, legal status changes), that seem to affect legal residents have been there already. That is the reason many South asian org. are not proactively campaigning right now. It is has been on the agenda however.

6) penalize the shit out of businesses who hire people without papers. sure, some people have nice ass papers, but set up a system to confirm the reality of SS numbers.

Why don't I do something radical here? Why don't I suggest that we apply amnesty to EVERYONE involved? And that includes the construction worker who picks out cheap labor from the local corner, the home-owner who hires a gardener without asking for a green card, the couple that hires a maid. Reality check: Our economic system depends on low-wage jobs, under-the-table jobs, jobs that don't meet federal guidelines for minimum wage and a W-2 at the end of the year. That's the way it's been for a long time now. And we're in a Catch-22.

Consumers are used to to paying a certain amount for produce picked by immigrants without papers. We like having our lawns trimmed, our babies raised, our motel rooms cleaned, and our dishes washed by cheap illegal labor. If the goverment really were to suddenly crack down on illegal immigrants here now in this country, what would it mean? Higher grocery store prices, higher motel room rates, higher landscaping fees, higher fast-food costs, etc etc. Suddenly people may find they want to keep this illegal immigration problem that we ourselves have fostered and nurtured hidden. Why? Simply because we take advantage of the situation. The supply side is always there. And the demand side has always been, and will always be, there to fill the void.

If we're going to offer "amnesty," then that's a sham. The going rate for amnesty that I heard offered was 2 grand (in American dollars). Yes, you learn English, polish up on some other American factoids, pay over $2,000, and kabing! There's your amnesty. You are now permitteed to work here legally. Sounds like a good ploy to bring in some money. I wonder where 2 grand times millions and millions of illegal immigrants would go? To pay off the national debt? Into INS bureaucracy coffers? We could use the money to build The Great Wall of America to keep the invading hordes out. How many illegal immigrants could even come up with the two grand?

Here's the long and short of it: illegal immigration has been a mainstay of the American economy for a very long time. In the L.A. area, industry could not continue without illegal labor. Americans would have to really suck it up with higher prices on many things overall if they really want to stop illegal immigration. I personally don't think there are enough legal Americans in the country to meet the demand of what jobs we have right now, and there certainly aren't enough legal immigrants to fill the demand of these jobs that go unnoticed and unmentioned. Just look at who is rebuilding parts of New Orleans right now. Illegal immigrants. From Alaska (where the canneries hire their share of Phillipino and Asian illegals) to New Orleans, from Greece to Germany, what economy isn't dependent on some percentage of illegal cheap labor?

dude:

I'm in the US. Also I brodly agree with your comment. We Indians treat other Indians far worse than anyone else.

Shiva.

bt, isnt it funnee how people forget, or choose to ignore these facts. if u live in any LARGE city, u r going to be hard-pressed to get by, despite whta people think, without alabour force willing to work for minimal salaries/wages, doing the work others wont do for the price.

it amazes me that once people gte their gc or citizenship, how vocal they suddenly become about anti-undocumented workers.

if i have to pay straight wages, and keep proper books, as a construction company or restaurant or lawncare or walmart, i am going to pass that on to you, the consumer. lets see if those so vehemently against undocumented workers like paying higher prices.

wasnt this discussed somewhat in the minute men post?

it amazes me that once people gte their gc or citizenship, how vocal they suddenly become about anti-undocumented workers.

The famous joke about two close Jewish friends who decide to convert to Christianity. The first one goes up to the priest, receives his baptism, and then just runs past his friend out of the church. The friend runs behind asking 'Hey, what's up with you?'. The reply? 'I don't want to talk to you Jews, you crucified our Lord!'

This is just human nature.

And the stuff about GC delays is not entirely accurate. Most of my friends with Master's/PhDs have been getting GCs in 2 years or less after graduation, especially after the computerized systems.

All y'all are up this late for a wonky debate?
It's kind of hot isn't it? Makes me think that the "Sepia Destiny" idea might help a lot of people :)

Oh my god you people are so deliciously insane. I can't possibly read all this today. Bookmark! :-)

Um, just from my cursory skimming let me note that I have white friends--some of whom sound American but aren't---who have had incredible problems with their visa and immigration after getting onto tenure-track positions. These are crem-de-la-crem types who I am sure even picky Razib-da wouldd approve of.

To me one problem with the immigration situation, as I understand it, is that it is unnecessarily punitive and it so easy for someone trying to play by the rules to slip in between the cracks and get screwed by paperwork or a misunderstanding--and suddenly it's a felony to give them water. That's nuts.

@ #84 dude: So the kings/rulers of the country before the colonist were all
benign democrats who did not "steal, oppress, enjoy the fruits of our labours, and lord it over weaker, ununified communities." ? Not that I am condoning opression in any form or by anyone, just pointing out that an utopian classless, non-confrontational society has never been realised (things were better or worse under certain rulers).

I fail to see how the current illegal immigration debate is a class/race issue as described by #77 tashie and dude. Is anyone opressing the illegal immigrants from Mexico here ? If anything, many states in the US are trying to make life easier for them by having Spanish tranlators, signs in Spanish, bilingual education in schools etc. Their kids are receiving in-state tuition waivers. Yes, many of them work in inhumane conditions, but that is not what all the protests are about.

If you want to rant about oppression, you should mention Mexico and the other countries from where these people are coming from - what kind of wretched life did they lead there to risk so much and cross the border illegally ?
There was also a mention of searches at the aiport - if Indian subcontinentals and Middle-eastern people start a protest tomorrow on profiling, how many Mexican do you think will come and show solidarity ?
Just to make my point clear - I am not against immigration from any nation - I am also against the stupid house bill that penalizes all and sundry - but I am against supporting a group because of some perceived connection of oppression by a white majority. I will of course support them for their right to treated decently as human beings.

I also agree with Amardeep's contention that some of the conservatives are against immigration of any kind. Unfortunately, most Americans are unaware or too lazy to find out about the differences in the two forms making it is easy for a politician to blurr the lines in their rhetoric.

@ #91 technophobicgeek: The GC problem is a relatively recent phenomenon. Retrogression started around Sept'05. Also, as I mentioned, the first two stages are relatively fast now (though still far from perfect). For the majority of Masters and PhD degree holders from China, India, Philipines and Mexico, the wait for filing adjustment of status is a 3 years wait at least. Even then, as for one person I know, it has taken 2+ years to get the card in his hand after the background check (and he is a PhD).

Asian group joining the protests..

"All of what is happening around immigration reform in the country is not a Latino-originated movement at all," said Deepa Iyer, executive director of the South Asian American Leaders of Tomorrow, based in Silver Spring, Md. "There are also Asian and African groups working together. From where I stand, I feel that our community is greatly invested in the issue."

I wonder where 2 grand times millions and millions of illegal immigrants would go?

Just to make my point clear - I am not against immigration from any nation -

@#95: RC

Because probably you too are an immigrant.. How convinient ..

To be technically correct, I am not an immigrant. I am in the US on a non-immigrant visa. I do, however, intend to get a permanant residency if possible. And therefore my support for immigration is convenient...err how exactly ?(I am sure no one at USBCIS is going - hey this guy suppports immigration, lets give him a GC - no sweat!)

Looks like this bit of news has been drowned out. Not surprising, as it doesn't contribute to the pro-illegal immigrant lobbyists' agendas.

Latinos divided on immigration issue April 10, 2006, 10:17 AM

Contrary to scenes of hundreds of thousands of united Latinos marching across the country in support of immigration reform, a sizable number of the ethnic group opposes the marches and strongly objects to illegal immigration.

But their voices have largely been muffled by the massive protests, which will continue Monday as tens of thousands of demonstrators are expected to take to the streets of Tucson, Phoenix and other cities nationwide.

They are voicing their support of a Senate bill that would give an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants living in the country a chance for U.S. citizenship.

"That's the objective of the marches -- to give the impression that all Latinos are for allowing the illegals to become citizens," said Phoenix resident Lionel De La Rosa. "Well, I'm not." link

"That's the objective of the marches -- to give the impression that all Latinos are for allowing the illegals to become citizens," said Phoenix resident Lionel De La Rosa. "Well, I'm not."

la raza traitors! :=)

#93:BongoP'o'ndit,

? who said anythign about the there being an utopian society..um, i actually specifically said i dont get why we do our own kin worse than what the colonist did, so, before the colonists, there was us, and we were doing ourselves worse, and after the colonists, there was us again, still doing ourselves worse..

u might consider reading some of the above almost 100 posts where some have suggested rather bewilderingly taht only people with degrees ought to be allowed, or people who can somehow add to the economy, or who speak english, all pathetic imo. so class distinction has everything to do with migration as the admin also allows a lot more opportunity for people who are degree holders and have higher education.

seems like these are the people who least likely have to migrate to better there situation significantly as they can very well work and make a substantial living. its the very non-english speaking non-professional, ill-mannered, unsuffisticated, "riff-raff" that NEED to migrate to improve there lot.

i have grown up in the diplomatic corps a significant part of my life around various parts of the world, and in my own experice, its those very riff-raff that have the greatest amount of relatives back home depending on them, and those very ones that send the most remittance back.

a dr. coming to the US or UK workign as a dish washer is unnecessary. it take sout a pool of talent well needed at home, a non-professional who comes here and works even as a dish washer may make thge sort of income 100's of times beyond what they could at home.

the attitude of immigrants once they have achieved there goal, or are going to pursure their goal, of getting residency, of superiority is just to funny. perhaps its best you migrate out of the country, one less neo-imperialist amongs the citizenry. also typical is well if things dont work out or they kick me out, i'll just go back and make a living there, soryy mate, can have it both ways.

as i have mentiond befoe, not all of us are abcd's, fops, or desh-residents, and not all of us aspire to the ultimate goal of gc's. some of us come, study, work, and go somewhere else, to perhaps study some more, work, and then move on. or, we move back home, an dhelp the likes of BRAC and Grameen to better the lives of our own kin.

as for the US born peoples of deshi parentage, why should they feel anymore allegence to the s.asian crown then other americans. if they do,great, many do, if they dont, there perogative. i am highly critical of the lot that comes over, however that is, then tries to block the door,like george and the fire at the birthday party.

that should read crowd, not crown, and sp is not my interest here, so sorry about all the mis-sp's

To Razib the Atheist I agree with almost everything you say.

Since I live in Canada this issue does not really affect me as much. But If I was in charge I would invade the north part of mexico and make it a new part of the united states.

thanks dude for replyin to that bongo guy...i know the word 'colonisation' would just be seen as bringin' up all that crap again, but the fact is that the usa basically acts as an imperial superpower compared to the rest of the world, even little white first world countries like new zealand feel the effects of that. Witness the rejection of the USA to ratify the International Criminal Court, the Kyoto Protocol and the new UN permanent commission on human rights (along with Israel and for some strange reason Somalia) thereby making such agreements signed by over a hundred other countries including NZ :-) seem pretty much meaningless.

if something positive could happen in the USA out of this debate it would also send a great message to the rest of the world.

the attitude that people coming over from mexico should be 'grateful' because their life is now slightly less crapalicious is just a sign of how people have internalised the neo-liberal idea that the poor are poor because it is their fault. being from a third world country, I know that poor are poor because they are kept poor.

Mexicans are poor because of historical injustices and trade agreements orchestrated by America through the WTO and IMF to create an unfair economic global market.

Poor Indians are poor because they are outside the caste system, because they are indigenous people displaced in the name of development and because they start off from such an underprivileged position in life that even their survival is amazing.

We might happen to be in the upper or middle classes not just because we worked hard and went to med/law school but also because we started off from a privileged position that allowed us to be able to have those opportunities, compared to poorer immigrants. Not everyone's mummies and daddies can pay for badminton lessons and extra tutoring.

I KNOW it sounds cheesy, and maybe it is my lovely clean, green air and my peaceful, unimportant little country, but how about giving something back, or giving people to whom we are linked by the shared experience of post-colonial migration a helping hand?

Maybe Mexicans wouldn't march for us, but don't you think the fact that we are comparatively a more privileged immigrant voice would make our marches more influential? If Jewish people went and marched about Israeli rights, who thinks the govt would listen more than they would to Rwandan people who were concerned about their rights? We're not all rolling in money or whatever, but I know that in the US Indian immigrants are one of the more privileged groups.

since september 11 an anti-foreigner sentiment doesn't mean that we're all being oppressed by a white majority, it just means that at some point people who have moved to another country do have to admit that we are in a more vulnerable position that people from first world countries regarding our human rights. the terrorist searches at airports is just an example that applies to us, but putting it in context there is a wider pattern of anti-migrant sentiment taking effect. governments are tightening up their immigration laws, refusing more refugees, even refusing more well-off immigrants.

all i am trying to say is that i feel that legal, educated and comparatively powerful immigrants over in countries like america and here in other first world countries,have a lot of power which isn't being as effectively utilised as it could to help out others within the refugee and migrant communities.

yes, if you look at it from a certain view its not our problem and they should just get in line. but if you look at it from another point of view with this 'get in line view.' Imagine you ask two people to run a race. One person is healthy and the other has broken legs. If the person with broken legs loses, is it really completely their fault that they lose? How about making the race (no pun intended) a bit fairer?

why don't we use our cultural identity not just to look at our own issues but those of others who are less well-off and more vulnerable in society? I think we have a lot more power than we realise, and we can use it to do good, even if that good is just turnin' up and showin your mutinous little brown face in protest at something unfair.

all people who continue this argument in a scary neoliberal, 'let's not care about the poor', 'life's not fair get used to it' etc vein go give someone a big hug :-) Not only will it make you feel v loved and happy, it'll also remind you of our shared humanity. Life will never be 100% fair, but we can always do little things to help make it a bit better for others.

Share the love! It's way more fun and all the cool people do it.

But If I was in charge I would invade the north part of mexico and make it a new part of the united states.

we go separate directions here! i'm not an expansionist, i'm a partitionist. if i was dictator i would separate the united states into half a dozen regional countries. hell, here in the pacific northwest we probably share much with folks in vancouver, BC, than with those east of the rockies or down in proto-aztlan. we're too big a nation as it is.

To Razib the Atheist I agree with almost everything you say.

Since I live in Canada this issue does not really affect me as much. But If I was in charge I would invade the north part of mexico and make it a new part of the united states.

At what stage of their evolution to desi right wingers become rednecks?

tashie, well put, but, i dont think this matters a whole lot to people of particular mindet.

its a malaise, and primarily the reason i think why s.e. asia ia more developed than us in s.asia. we scr** ourselves. note the people in expensive cars driving along potholed streets, or past garbage dumped on street corner, maybe a block away from the dumpees employers house, or the throwing of garbage out of th ewindow of said expensive car...etc etc..

peole have an attitude that as long as they are well/better off, everyone else isnt because they are lazy, stupid, or not trying enough.

i recall my mum raving about how stoopid the poor people are, she runs a community health centre in the oorest part of the city, which is free basically, and how they dont try to improve their lot. dad said well, if they come to ur house, ur business, would u give them a job? ofcourse not. VAST majority of South Asia is dirt poor, infact, they might have to save up to be dirt poor. the cities make up a fraction of the population, the middle and upper classes make up even a smaller fraction of that. this malaise gets exported over, so when thye open their mouths, what comes out is the same garbage, much like the stuff coming out of expensive car windows, and they dont care about who else it affects. best perhaps like i said they leave the country afterall.

dont get me wrong, i am not saying they arent lazy or they dont try, cause that is true as well, but the majority of people who are that underpoverished arent so because they would rather stay at home and watch Star Tv or BBC Worldwide. i'm no socialist, but maybe some of these loud mouths need to go and visit and live in a few developing world countries in latin america, africa and asia, and see what conditions people live in before pronouncing great ignorance under the guise of educated musing and statistics. if u own a compuetr and and/or have access to the interwebs, u are waaaay above the majority of people of ur countries.

ooops, stoopeed pc did a number, sorry peoples, admin thanks to remove 2nd copy..!

=)

PS:

At what stage of their evolution to desi right wingers become rednecks?

o,m...goddd, todays truest statement

PJFan, look up today's globe, in particular the article by freeman. there's more to it than the masses are jabbering about.

During the Depression, hundreds of thousands of Mexicans, including many who had been born in the United States, were expelled from the country because they competed with Americans for non-existent jobs. In 1942, when the United States entered the Second World War, it opened the gates again, importing Mexicans to help in the war effort through the Brasero program, a guest-worker scheme that continued until 1964. During those 22 years, there were four million Brasero contracts signed.
Then followed a period of 20 years when U.S. authorities let workers flow through when labour was short, then tightened up controls when the Mexicans weren't needed. "During the winter, they'd round everybody up and throw them out because they didn't need them," Mr. Fernandez says.
An immigration law passed in 1986 eventually led to amnesty for almost three million illegal migrants. Since then, the process has resumed, with the latest migrants again counting on an eventual amnesty, he said.

i'm no socialist, but maybe some of these loud mouths need to go and visit and live in a few developing world countries in latin america, africa and asia, and see what conditions people live in before pronouncing great ignorance under the guise of educated musing and statistics

i was born in an anus of the world (dhaka, bangladesh) and lived there for 5 years (almost died once because of a severe illness induced by germs & pollution) and have visited a few times. does that give me creds? (unfortunately, my father wasn't a rickshawalla).

anyway, the main reason i spoke up on this thread is that abhi seemed to imply that brown americans might be able to show common solidarity. well, i don't think so. i don't believe we're 90% democrats, and i don't think all of us share the same vision of quasi-open-borders-america. more power to you if you want to pack this country fill with all sorts. i have two choices i can make in my life open to me, i can live in america as just-another-dude, not a plutocrat or a pauper, just a joe-schmo in a republic, or, i can go go work for my uncle in bangladesh and surround myself with lackeys and servants. the latter isn't the worst choice in the world, and life isn't fair for sure, i was born with more choice that 90% of humanity. that being said, i want to preserve a society in the USA where everyone doesn't expect to have a nanny or a gardner because they can get them cheap handfulls by the dozen. if lower unskilled immigration levels means more expensive produce, i'm willing to accept it as the cost of living in a society of peers.

and here we go again with the "redneck" references. if someone is poor & white & uneducated, they be ignorant. if they are poor & non-white & uneducated they need a helping hand. when i see toothless white crank and meth addicts walking around some of the sleepy towns in the pacific northwest i'm not seeing someone who has "white skin privilege."

"At what stage of their evolution to desi right wingers become rednecks?"

May be the moment they are naturalized..

abhi-

in response to your thoughts on involvement of other communities, there were plenty of latino and non-latino country flags on screen at the new york rally including bangladeshi and sri lankan flags (they had large screens and speakers at every other block so everyone could see/hear the speakers)...and the folks from the taxi workers alliance were there. also, various south asian/asian/african/irish groups particpated in the new york rally, inluding Immigrant Communities in Action which is a mutli ethic coalition of grassroots organizations.

and here we go again with the "redneck" references. if someone is poor & white & uneducated, they be ignorant. if they are poor & non-white & uneducated they need a helping hand.

Very well put. Interesting how the people who make those "redneck" comparisons claim to be speaking against "stereotyping" and "discrimination" on these boards. As long as you agree with their version of "anti-stereotyping"...

"that being said, i want to preserve a society in the USA where everyone doesn't expect to have a nanny or a gardner because they can get them cheap handfulls by the dozen. if lower unskilled immigration levels means more expensive produce, i'm willing to accept it as the cost of living in a society of peers."

You are talking about extremes. The U.S isn't becoming Bangladesh because of immigration. Your idea of 'preserving' leaves out the fact that may be in the process of getting cheap labour, a lot of them are getting an opportunity to live in a better world as well. Immigration is as old as civilization and it will continue to happen - 12 million in a country of 300 mil people is sustainable. No society can live within electric fences - but that is not to say that we should leave the borders open. Have strict laws, but keep in mind that there are always people who would risk their lives to come here; because that is the innate nature of human beings, and especially when there exists a disparity as much as it is between u.s and mexico.

"At what stage of their evolution to desi right wingers become rednecks?"

May be the moment they are naturalized..

Nope - when they start talking about Mexicans as an undifferentiated lumpen mass of scroungers, when they start talking about how their country needs to be annexed and taken over, when they describe places as being like anuses, when they....ah, you get the idea.

Interesting how the people who make those "redneck" comparisons claim to be speaking against "stereotyping" and "discrimination" on these boards. As long as you agree with their version of "anti-stereotyping"...

Why'd that pain you Vikram? Do you feel misunderstood and a victim yourself, eh?

tashie said:

"Mexicans are poor because of historical injustices and trade agreements orchestrated by America through the WTO and IMF to create an unfair economic global market."

NO Its not as simple as that. Its not all US's fault that a nation with such abundance of natural resources cant have higher living standard. Its MUCH MUCH more complex than saying ... oh its all IMF's fault.

Although I share the sentiment expressed by "Senior Indiano" I ABSOLUTELY hate the term "redneck". It is racial SLUR, period.

and here we go again with the "redneck" references. if someone is poor & white & uneducated, they be ignorant. if they are poor & non-white & uneducated they need a helping hand. when i see toothless white crank and meth addicts walking around some of the sleepy towns in the pacific northwest i'm not seeing someone who has "white skin privilege."

What about personal responsibility?? I thought republicans were the party of personal responsibility, and keeping the government out of their lives ??

What about personal responsibility?? I thought republicans were the party of personal responsibility, and keeping the government out of their lives ??

so? i'm not a republican.

when they describe places as being like anuses

sniff the air when you get off the plain in dhaka and get back to me :) i'm not being metaphorical.

You are talking about extremes. The U.S isn't becoming Bangladesh because of immigration. Your idea of 'preserving' leaves out the fact that may be in the process of getting cheap labour, a lot of them are getting an opportunity to live in a better world as well. Immigration is as old as civilization and it will continue to happen

you are talking in extremes as well. i'm not talking about closing the borders, i'm talking about creating an immigration system more like the canadian one. emphasize educational qualifications instead of a spanish surname (this is what you are doing when you allow undocumented a back-door toward normalization because geography has gifted them with a nearby border). the as for the 'opportunity to live in a better world,' i have made it clear why that doesn't persuade me: in a world of 6.6 billion mexicans are not an exceptional case of want. if you were talking about resettling refugees from darfur, or the millions from congo and liberia it would be harder for me to argue against because the misery rises to such a threshold that even my utility calculations might have to set aside. but mexico is not a poor country (eg., $10 K per capita GDP vs. $3.4 K for India), it just happens to be a much poorer country than the USA.

Your idea of 'preserving' leaves out the fact that may be in the process of getting cheap labour, a lot of them are getting an opportunity to live in a better world as well. Immigration is as old as civilization and it will continue to happen - 12 million in a country of 300 mil people is sustainable.

yes, but look closely at the numbers. those 12 million tend to move into a few states. it isn't just absolute numbers, it's density. anyway, it would be more sustainable if the individuals brought more social capital, but as it is many of the undocumented do not.

so you truely would support (or wouldn't argue against) resettling millions from congo to the united states? well, may be that is becuase you know that nobody is asking for it. Immigration happens mostly with the immediate neighbours - that is the reality everywehre. So, your utopian examples of resettling the poor from Congo has no semblance of reality. Mexico is a much poorer country compared to united states. thats all that matters. all i am saying is that there is a much higher purpose to life - atleast in my view - beyond preserving what we have. if we can part some of what we enjoy here to the less privileged in a sustainable way, I am all for it, and in my view, 12 mil in 300 mil population is not a big deal and in the process they also provide a cheat work force - it is a win-win situation, except of course for paranoids who think that our 'culture' will be lost to the mexicans.

"those 12 million tend to move into a few states"
may be so. California is the fifth largest economy in the world - so you are not saying that it is really hurting california that much. are you?

@ Dude and Tashie: I can't go through all of it again - but if you read my blog-post on this debate, I mention that I am not minimizing the contributions of an illegal Mexican relative to that of a legal PhD degree holder. Neither did I try to show any attitude of superiority. I am also not going into the question of whether it is right or wrong for someone to emigrate to the US - that is a whole different issue. I am just trying to say that I personally cannot have much sympathy for people protesting loudly about a right to stay in the USA, when they got into this country contravening its laws in the first place. This is not a superiority thing - I just think its plain wrong. If some poor Mexican labourers and farmers were protesting about working conditions, I would support them. I am also saying that for those who are jumping through the legal hoops trying to stay here legally - all this charade with the illegals is quite disheartening.
Of course, some wiseass will say 'life is not fair' - but then that's the end to all arguements.

Btw, on this other issue - I dont know how this ties up with the present debate but;

i recall my mum raving about how stoopid the poor people are, she runs a community health centre in the oorest part of the city, which is free basically, and how they dont try to improve their lot. dad said well, if they come to ur house, ur business, would u give them a job? ofcourse not. VAST majority of South Asia is dirt poor, infact, they might have to save up to be dirt poor. the cities make up a fraction of the population, the middle and upper classes make up even a smaller fraction of that. this malaise gets exported over, so when thye open their mouths, what comes out is the same garbage, much like the stuff coming out of expensive car windows, and they dont care about who else it affects. best perhaps like i said they leave the country afterall.

Such beautiful visual metaphors! Unfortunately, if you look at the segment of the population that tries to get legal residency in the US (at least from India) they are the middle and lower middle classes that could not afford the expensive car in India. THAT is why they are here in the US - to pursue a dream. Elitist with cars and rows of servants do not usually end up in the USA.

With globalizationa and improving economies in India, the situation is also changing - such that a lot of people are going back to India and buying those expensive cars - don't know if they are throwing out garbage, verbal or otherwise. Also, while a great section of South Asians are still very poor, the situation is improving - again at least in India and much of it owes to the globalized economy and contribution of the Indians in the US. The evidence I have is anecdotal but last time I went back, I noticed that household servants are presently living under much better conditions than they did 20 years ago - they have TV in their house, their children are going to school, some are even carrying mobile phones. Much more, no doubt, needs to be done. And people with good intention do help out - whether they have immigrated or stayed back. On a personal level, my friends and I have contributed to a scholarship fund in India that will buy textbooks for poor students needing medical books. I agree that not everyone is that willing to help. I have met many people of Indian origin with US citizenship/green card who just keep complaining about the situation back home without a desire to do anything constructive - but that malaise is not as widespread as you think.

Also maybe your mom did not help those guys, but my mother and mother-in-law and a group of other women have invested considerable energy in educating children of poor people in their area. So don't go generalizing about a whole class of people in south asia.

I can't read 122 comments, so I apologize if this has already been said.

Did any of you go to rallies or marches today in your cities, if they existed? I did, in NYC, starting in Washington Square Park. From what I could see there were only a handful of desis in that group. I mean like 6 total. Our group was penned in separately from the other groups, so I couldn't check out the group that came from Chinatown or over the Brooklyn Bridge. Any other reports?

Immigration happens mostly with the immediate neighbours - that is the reality everywehre. So, your utopian examples of resettling the poor from Congo has no semblance of reality. Mexico is a much poorer country compared to united states. thats all that matters. all i am saying is that there is a much higher purpose to life - atleast in my view - beyond preserving what we have.

...and then you say

California is the fifth largest economy in the world - so you are not saying that it is really hurting california that much. are you?

so i'm confused. what are the purposes of life? i don't grant that the size of an economy is a good proxy for a Good Society. above you seemed to imply we shouldn't look to people just for what they can do for us, but that there are other values in life. and i agree.

as for your first assertion, is that true? nearly half of american immigrants are from asia. do most canadian immigrants come from the united states? what about the people from morocco in the netherlands, from turkey in germany and pakistan in norway? do i want millions of congolese in this country? no, not really. they aren't my kind of people, though i am all for bleeding african nations dry of their professionals because i care about these people and i don't think they'll ever get a fair shake where they are. but, if you want the greatest happiness rate of change (positively) for the greatest number, you would look to where misery was maximal.

immigrants as % of US pop from 1820-2000.

"so i'm confused."

my points are two fold.
1. we should what we can to others without hurting us badly - that is why i suggest we should be lenient to the illegals here. that is my value about the higher purpose of life and so on.
2.I pointed out that it is not hurting us badly by talking about how well the california is doing in terms of its economy.

are you suggesting half of the illegal immigrants in u.s are from Asia? I find it difficult to believe. I thought we are talking in the context of illegal immigration.

"but, if you want the greatest happiness rate of change (positively) for the greatest number, you would look to where misery was maximal."

Do you do that in real life though? Do you help someone who seeks your help or you would find the most suffering person in the world and help him/her?

@ Senor Indiano

Why'd that pain you Vikram? Do you feel misunderstood and a victim yourself, eh?

Nah... I leave the "misunderstood victim" blubbering to the Aztlan/MEChA/Raza whiners ..

there is a book called albion's seed which describes the settlement of the 'four folkways' of anglo-saxon settlers in the american colonies before 1776. this book is influential in my thinking though i don't buy into its thesis about the permenance of cultural-historical identity over centuries despite ethnic and social change. nevertheless, what struck me is the difference between the puritan emigration and the scotch-irish volkswanderung.

the puritans were derived from the calvinist middle class of east anglia. the 'pilgrim fathers' were a small sect who (i believe) called themselves the separatists, they weren't the main stem of emigration. the settlers were screened by the colony, and none of the illiterate & indigent of east anglia and england as a whole were encouraged to emigrate. their capital was evaluated, their skills surveyed. those who couldn't support or were social misfits were deported. a group of calvinist hereditary nobility considered emigrating to new england, but the puritan elders conferred and told them that their privileges were not going to transfer for the new world, and this convinced the nobles not to join their co-religionists. the point i'm trying to make is that colonial massachuttes was a peculiar self-selected society, it was over 90% literate for example, and their christianity was harsh but cerebral (church was often accompanied by scriptural commentary and free dialogue between men and women).

in contrast, the scotch-irish arrived from ulster and the english borderlands penniless (aside from 'the ascendency'). they were a violent and rowdy breed who brought their own form of back-country calvinism to this nation which persists to this day. they are often the archetypical 'trash' and 'rednecks' who are the butt of jokes here. they are the backbone of the modern republican party and provide many of the white soldiers in the american army.

immigration policy matters. the choices we make today may echo down through centuries. we can't opt out of fellow citizens. the snake-charming inbred hick in appalachia is an american, and i'm obligated by my vow of citizenship and fellow feeling to stand by him for better or worse. history is what it is, and we can't rewind the tape. the scotch-irish are a hard working people, they cleared the back country and they went down into the coal mines. they provided many of our presidents and bled for this country on the fields of battle. but though i mean no disrespect fundamentally the puritan yankee is more "my kind of person," a man of the book rather than the sword. i want more puritan yankees in this country, i want to reinforce my "own side" in the culture wars. i want to reach out to the IITs and beijing university, university of mexico city and the ladies on the campus in uppsala sweden (OK, never mind, i'm not single).

i made a reference to mexican peasants looking at a melting snowman and seeing the virgin mary earlier. i made that point for a reason, the mexicans who are emigrating to this country are the working class and the peasantry, not the sophisticated urbanites and intellectuals. they are the future snake charmers, and many of them are converting to evangelical charismatic christianity (see one nation under god by barry kosmin, 1994). instead of this i want more asian immigrants (who are the most likely to be secular, see here). plainly spoken, i want more pencil-necked urban intellectuals. and, i want us to take out the trash, take care of our own babies and mow our own lawns.

that is all. for now.

Do you do that in real life though? Do you help someone who seeks your help or you would find the most suffering person in the world and help him/her?

1) an individual is not a country, back to this in a moment

2) and yes, i have given money to charity (mostly medical) proactively (i don't get called because my phone is unlisted) as opposed to panhandlers on the street who approach me.

3) people in third world nations that are riven by strife and violence have asked for help many times from what i can tell (i read it in the paper, i see it on TV, i hear it on the radio). do you want congolese to swim the atlantic? we turn a blind eye. see what happened in 1994 in rwanda, from what i recall the USA via madeline albright pressured the UN not to label it a genocide so we could not intervene with a clean conscious. i would argue that immediacy and visual input is the primary parameter which motivates compassion, and i think we need to move beyond this. or, at least i would find the arguments of compassionate people (of which i will freely admit i am not) more persuasive if i felt its utilitarian impact was a bit more decoupled from first order sensory attention. look at the marches. we knew there were millions, but now we see them we feel moved? well, actually i do, but so what?

and just to be clear, i don't think mass low-skilled immigration will bring an apocolypse. it will turn the whole country into california, without the good weather. the highly skilled and the illegals will benefit monetarily while the middle class (lower and middle middle) will get squeezed. i don't value economic efficiency and convenience above all else. there is a character building in cooking your own food, mowing your own lawn and being able to predict someone's socioeconomic status to a high degree of accuracy from their skin color or surname.

[insert not] being able to predict

What is wrong with California, btw? The last I checked, the people are still moving to california.

"there is a character building in cooking your own food, mowing your own lawn and being able to predict someone's socioeconomic status to a high degree of accuracy from their skin color or surname."

well, this is exactly americans don't want to do. so i doubt what is the character building with them?

and by the way, the moment you get to second generation, all these disappear. In California, atleast I don't see any second generation mexican mowing the lawns.. anyways, i love daniel who maintains my backyard and viviana who looks after our baby so my wife and i could work - they are just wonderful people who work hard to earn a living and there is a place for them in the good old america.

What is wrong with California, btw? The last I checked, the people are still moving to california.

native born leaving california:

During the measured twelve-year span, immigrants and births to immigrants accounted for the net increase of 4.1 million people after allowing for deaths and those leaving the state. Native-born residents (those residing in the state prior to 1990) decreased by about 100,000 and this was not compensated for by other Americans moving to California.

california is great...if, you are a professional with a hefty income, young and single with low expenses, or an immigrant willing to live on the margins or in dense conditions. single families of modest means have a hard time making ends meet and owning a home.

and by the way, the moment you get to second generation, all these disappear. In California, atleast I don't see any second generation mexican mowing the lawns

that takes time. if you have enormous inflows of immigration the first generation is always around.

"anus of the world"

wow, i thought that was at Lex/51st, going from the E to the 6 line. actually, pretty much a lot of china town..wait wait, it could have been bankok in the mid 70's.. wait wait, anus u say, yeah, def. sandaga in dakar..wait, no, i was wrong..anus of the world u say, yeah, i got it, its in the minds of small minded people who have some sort of grudge against the world... and relief the distress by knocking on less fortunate..

chill dude, dhaka prolly no likey u either... uncle or no uncle

PS: it does smell bad, and i do believe the same smell can be had in most of the tropics, its called, the tropics...

but mexico is not a poor country

ur right, statistics say they arent poor, so it must be true. how bout a vist to mexico proper, not cancun, or juarez.

seriosuly, get out more, smell the non-anal air in the US, talk to some real people.. no, no, better to stick to stats.

Yo dude:

Don't hate on Chinatown, man. I'll take your anus out.

i very specifically said an anus, not the anus. and yes, i've heard that about china too (from singaporeans).

My lawn won't mow itself for $30.

"california is great...if, you are a professional with a hefty income, young and single with low expenses, or an immigrant willing to live on the margins or in dense conditions. single families of modest means have a hard time making ends meet and owning a home."

Ok. you are refering to the cities of california. and if the home prices are too high, please don't blame those who mow lawns - that isn't fair. blame the same groups whom you prefer to have here - the IT professionals from India and China.

yes, but look closely at the numbers. those 12 million tend to move into a few states. it isn't just absolute numbers, it's density. anyway, it would be more sustainable if the individuals brought more social capital, but as it is many of the undocumented do not.

Just a couple of notes on this data:

1) the number you're citing comes from a pew hispanic center study (click on Executive Summary). It lists the number of "unauthorized migrants" not undocumented people and defines the difference for you. It also says that "Some migrants in this estimate have legal authorization to live and work in the United States on a temporary basis. These include migrants with temporary protected status (TPS) and some migrants with unresolved asylum claims. Together they may account for as much as 10% of the estimate." It also says 11.5 million to 12 million. So regardless of how many times you see the 12 million number repeated in the media, it's actually a misrepresentation of the data.

2) This is just one method of estimating (it relies on comparing census estimates of population to DHS figures on immigration--I don't find it all that compelling on the surface but the guy who did it's been doing this stuff for a long time). A couple of Bear Stearns analysts used a different method and found 20 million people. Which is to say, no one's really sure exactly how many undocumented people there are in the U.S. and people with different politics fixate on whichever number they think will help them generally.

There are many more interesting statistics on that page. Like this one: "By 2004, the annual inflow of foreign-born persons was down 24% from its all-time high in 2000."

Funny how that never gets cited ;)

Elitist with cars and rows of servants do not usually end up in the USA

says u!

i beg to differ. a quick trip to jersey or jackson height will confirm for you not all who are clamering at the gates are "middle and lower middle classes"

and what does the example i provided have anythign to do with anything, first,its a real life example, not from an article, not statistics (we all know how to google and look at the world factbook), nor is it some report some expert did. it has to do with what i said earlier, we are our own worst enemy. the example detailed a mindset, even from someone who spends their day helping the people who the were ridiculing.

while a great section of South Asians are still very poor, the situation is improving

have u actually ever, or recently gone to rural india, seeing as tahts what u r talking about?

no, really? not just drive past, but actually go, and stay? because very many places havent change much in maybe 100 years... though they do have a tv set, and i know in b'desh Grameen provided mobile phones to rural folks.

maybe your mom did not help those guys

she runs a free community centre that provides medical, shes a dr., education, and vocational training to out of wed mothers.

i am not generalising, i know what the hell i am talkign about because i've seen it first hand, and know of the people who do actually help, many, unfortuanately, and foreigners, or INGO's, or missionaries. most of my lot dont do crap except bitch, and then they go abroad to study and never go back home.

some of the commenters are 15 years away from being those uncles, u know the ones, complaining about politics at home, the concrete ceiling for our promotions, how our culture has changed so much, and people these days arent the same, and ofcourse, my personal fav., bitching about the local deshi consulate and/or embassy, and how they dont care about the community, but they knew a 2nd secretary once, well, met him atleast at a party...

ya'll just dont like it when u get told off for being,i know this is very prejudicial of me, deshinecks...

yo, BrownFist

look, it smells bad, but i would say its my 2nd most fav place in the city. there is an old couple who do chinese food off of a cart on weekends.. full meal for $3, and nothing can beat the noodle shops. my 2nd fav is one of the chinese bakeries..mmmm, lotus paste and bean cakes..

i want some now.. but it still smells bad...

I am OUTRAGED. In this whole immigration debate that you've collectively been so ready to swarm all over like a bunch of flies who have smelled something delish, you've maligned something that is sacred to many of us - the anus. How you could so lightly compare a place like Dhaka (yuck yuck yuck) to the beautious puckered perfection of the anus is beyond comprehsion. Razib, you make pretty pompous and presumtious claims about your hometown. Stop romanticizing everything. Next time, get your fact straight - look up Wiki or something - a horrible third world place with dirty brown people making a mess of everything could *never* be the anus - or even, as you take the time to point out - AN anus of the world.
"AN" anus - psh. There can only be ONE anus.

if your head is in your anus you will smell anus wherever you go.

Razib -
Oh, how I wish that all the measures you reccomend, i.e, the southern wall etc were in place when your parents immigrated to this blessed land.
Also - dude, please read some Macro 101 or have someone explain it to yo before commenting on our deficit problem.
Lesson # 1 - Foreigners will not be coming anytime soon to claim their monies.
So you may sleep safe.

i stick by my assertion about Lex/51st going from the E to the 6 train uptown... i dont care how wondeful ani (i dont know the plural, ani seems funnee) are...

The House bill is ridiculous. But then, so is the other side. I hope that attempting to follow the law is valued above illegality.

holy crap (pun intended),

if your head is in your anus you will smell anus wherever you go

i was JUST now thinking that...

Also - dude, please read some Macro 101 or have someone explain it to yo before commenting on our deficit problem

wha...??

I am OUTRAGED. In this whole immigration debate that you've collectively been so ready to swarm all over like a bunch of flies who have smelled something delish, you've maligned something that is sacred to many of us - the anus. How you could so lightly compare a place like Dhaka (yuck yuck yuck) to the beautious puckered perfection of the anus is beyond comprehsion. Razib, you make pretty pompous and presumtious claims about your hometown. Stop romanticizing everything. Next time, get your fact straight - look up Wiki or something - a horrible third world place with dirty brown people making a mess of everything could *never* be the anus - or even, as you take the time to point out - AN anus of the world. "AN" anus - psh. There can only be ONE anus.

I just cannot believe what I am reading!!!!!1 The pro-anus bias in this thread is just ridiculous and as unpopular as it may make me I can't sit idly by any more. You know what, some of you people might think you were born in the anus of the world but I was BORN in an ACTUAL anus, so all you fakers can just take a hike. My father had to wait 15 - that's right 15 years - after filing for his relatives to come to the small intestine and then we had to fight NUMEROUS southward movements and EVEN THEN we did it all legally! So all you people who think you've seen anus, maybe you should take a trip with me to my homeland and then you'll see what smelly and shitty is all about! Assholes!!!

ROTFL

i read the last comment again. i'm still laughing...i need my asthma inhaler.

wha...??

context. he meant moi.

also, what does the southern wall have to do with my family? we landed in JFK on a british airline. the stewardess was really nice, she gave me some free archie comics. i couldn't read them, but i remember that jughead crashed some person powered plane, does anyone remember this? circa 1982. also, the eggs on the plane tasted like plastic. back then, (world - anus smell) = plastic. anyone else remember how strange a supermarket smelled? anyway....

i think

(world - anus smell)= plastic

should go on a t-shirt. but i'm weird like that.

If the issue involves Mexicans who have legitimate reasons for deserving US citizenship but are not able to secure this legally, perhaps the discussion should also focus on addressing the reasons as to why this is not happening and, therefore, why such individuals are having to resort to illegal methods in their efforts to emigrate to the US.

I think there are several issues here:

(1) Illegal Immigrants are indeed taking jobs from low income/unskilled Americans and actually depressing their wages. In my Mid-Western city, I see more and more restaurants now manned by illegal aliens. A lot of factory jobs and other low income/unskilled jobs are now going to illegal aliens and the native born white and especially black population is taking a hit from a depression of wages and increased competition at low end/unskilled jobs. I am not sure how the poor/unskilled blacks and whites benefit from increased competition and lower wages at their jobs.

(2) Illegal aliens themselves are struggling more as recently arrived illegal aliens are willing to work for less and longer than an illegal alien who has been here for some years and has American born kids, food stamps, fake documents, some legitimacy. If you have loads and loads of desperate poorer people breathing down your neck, your situation economically might never improve as the employer can always hire the more desperate recently arrived illegal immigrant. The wages at those jobs might stagnate or actually keep falling as more and more desperate people compete for those jobs.

(3)We should grant partial amnesty to all the illegal aliens in the US who meet certain requirements and put them on a path to permanent residency. Maybe we can do a guest worker - certain number of years and requirements then - green card. However once they get their green cards, they need to wait in line and the legal immigrants should be the ones who get citizenship before the illegal aliens.

(4) Once we grant partial amnesty to all the illegal aliens in the US, it will create a tremendous incentive for more illegals to come in. To combat that we would need draconian punishments on businesses who still continue to hire illegals, look at the feasability of building a wall on the border, strictly enforce immigration laws and pass federal laws which will make it impossible for illegal aliens to survive in the US. We can then of course let in more low skilled people legally for humanitarian or economic reasons.

razib:
about your comment on the scots-irish and puritans. could you explain a little further? I see what you are saying but what about the poor europeans(irish, italians etc that came in. I'm guessing many of them were a rough and tumnle lot. perhaps they were more urban and a bit less warlink on average. also they tended to settle in cities vs rural areas except for the(well the only 2 I can think of) germans and scandinavians. well at least a lot of germans settled in the rural areas(not sure if most). I believe the germans had a somewhat more civilized culture than the scots irish as I believe there were a significant amt of german settlers in the 18th century in the appalachians as in western md(my home state) I think the italian immigrants were a very rough and tumble lot?

vivo,

fisher's thesis that the founding settler populations had a out-of-size impact on the long term cultural trajectory of a region. that is, even though mass. is mostly irish now, with only a small yankee minority, the irish imbibed yankee sensibilities as they assimilated to "american" culture. fisher is arguing that there are 4 american cultures, not 1, and the one you assimilate too is contingent upon where you settle. i don't think that his argument is totally air-tight, but for what it is worth northern whites have consistently registered higher IQs than southern whites. this could be a function of cultural inputs or selection biasing of the initial migrants.

as for the character of immigrants, note that jews pushed up the SES ladder very quickly. italian americans have finally caught up, but it took them until this generations (or the last). similar with the irish catholics. capital can be built up, but if you don't bring some seed money it takes a lot longer to get going.

This may be somewhat off topic, but has anybody on this board have done a post about Indo-Canadians vs Indo-americans.

Since I live in Canada but have spent some time in the states. I have been surprised at much more intergrated the desi's in the states are then they are in canada. The % of desi's that don't speak english is much higher in Canada then they are in the states. And you don't have as may desi's only area's in the states as you do in Canada.

Living in Vancouver the last 3 years has made me sick of multicultrism, and wishing for the melting pot process of intergration that the States has.

PearlJamFan
Living in Vancouver the last 3 years has made me sick of multicultrism, and wishing for the melting pot process of intergration that the States has.

The difference is numbers. Canadians South Asians are probably far better integrated than their US counterparts. Would there ever be a US equivalent to Ujjal Dosanjh -- a desi politician not based on an ethnic constituency? In politics, media, arts, culture, and sport, Desis are more integrated in Canada than the US. But they are less assimilated.

Desis make up 3% of the Canadian pop, and 8% of of greater Vancouver (5% of vancouverites, one out every 20 people, speak Punjabi at home!). And Indians and Pakistanis alone make up 15% of all new immigrants to Canada -- so the proportions will only incrase. I doubt integration will decline, but even if Rahim Jaffer is PM and Ruby Dhalla leader of the opposition, assimilation will slow.

Now, that said, your big problem is living in Vancouver. Move to Saskatoon or FlinFlon and you will find the miniscule number of Desis, even Punjabis, plenty well integrated.

PearlJamFan, numbers matter. you have no choice but to integrate if you can't withdraw into little punjab :) also, i suspect whites aren't as scared of americo-browns since we don't go gangland on their asses now & then :)

Living in Vancouver the last 3 years has made me sick of multicultrism

why's that?

And you don't have as may desi's only area's in the states as you do in Canada.

You might live next to someone, but that doesn't mean they're your buddy. When I was growing up we would drive hours just to spend time with other bengali families.

When I was growing up we would drive hours just to spend time with other bengali families.

same here. but day-to-day interactions forced upon you by circumstance have a long term humanizing effect (sometimes).

The reason I'm sick of multicutrism is that it encourages newcomers not to assimlate into there new country but keep that old way of doing things.

Just look at some of the problems in the punjabi coummunity in Vancouver. There have been over 100 gang murders and almost all of them are punjabi killing punjabi. The only 2 honor killing this decade in canada were punjabi girls. And just look at the sexism, boys who barely pass grade 10 get a new car, yet girls have to be perfect or there family loses honors.

And another thing I have noticed here is that punjabi tend to keep to themselves here both the older generation and the younger generation. They don't not want to muix at all.

But now some of those same problems are spreading to the punjabi communites in the San Jose and Fresno areas of California.

A few years ago an article in San Jose newpaper said that they were about 100,000 desi's in the bay area. Punjabi's made of 25% of them yet all of the 500 desi' kids in gangs were of a punjabi backgroud

come on man, you need to chill with the haterade on punjabis, we're not that bad

The reason I'm sick of multicutrism is that it encourages newcomers not to assimlate into there new country but keep that old way of doing things.

My way or the highway? The west is the best?

My mom is a Dhaliwal and my dad is a Dhillon, so you can't get much more punjabi then me. The reason I'm hard on them is that I don;t like the way the punjabi coummntiy in the west is gonna look in the future if they don't accept the fact that they are no longer living in the punjab.

Will you go easy on PearlJamFan please? He's been teased about his taste in music by these Punjabi gangsters - he needs to let off steam.

Sorry to tell you Pablo, but those punjabi gangesters teasing me for my taste in music are not around any more since they ended up killing each other.

PearlJamFan

Are you sure they didnt fall to the ground in shame at your sensitivity when you sang an Eddie Vedder song to them?

Clearly I remembaaaaa pickin' on da boy
Seemed like a harmless lil fck
But we unleashed a liooooon

PearlJamFan
The reason I'm sick of multicutrism is that it encourages newcomers not to assimlate into there new country but keep that old way of doing things.

But Toronto Desis live under those same laws and are not associated with crime, drugs, or honour-killings. Punjabis here in Toronto are better educated and more likely to speak English than Vancouver Punjabis (I did some digging on statcan).

The problems among west coast desis, wich you've correctly identified, don't have to do exculsively with multiculturalism, being Sikh, being Punjabi, or preferring Ra Da Punjabi Rapper over Eddie Vedder. Maybe it's because of all that rain you get?

Yo, this MoFo PearlJam listening boy came by while I was with my boys listening to Big Suga Kane, we were jus' sellin' some crack to some ho's on the block, man I was about to pop a cap in that paanchod Jagbinder Singhs ass, when the brown boy dressed like a gora maaderchod played Jeremy by Pearl Jam, I dropped my gun, stop slapping my bitches, stopped killing Jat boys, man I saw the light! He saved me! Yo PearlJamBoy! No more drive by's and crack dealing nor pimpin' or blunt smokin no more - man, where's this Jatt paanchod lookin' at my sister, yo maaderchod Binder Singh I'm a gonna kill yo family! Let me listen to some Bohemian the Punjabi Rapper my Jatt boy from Cali, smoke some weed and kill some more ho's. Where's that Pearl Jam album when you needs to listen to it?

Pablo hates all music.

Only punk.

Oh, that's how we know each other! My archnemesis, we meet again.

In politics, media, arts, culture, and sport, Desis are more integrated in Canada than the US. But they are less assimilated.

i understand PJ Fan if you're disenchanted but you're going slightly too negative about the whole thing. it's all good, but just to add some diversity, Punjab or Punjabis aren't all bad.

Chenad Jhelum Sutlej Ravi Beas till we die yo :-)

Thinking of calling my lawnmower and telling him that I have the right to inspect the papers of anyone on my property, and they better be having them on their person. Am trying to organise some other desis to do the same with their landscapers and lawnmowers.

LetŽs not put the entire burden on the Government. Each one has to do their part.

M. Nam

Thinking of calling my lawnmower and telling him that I have the right to inspect the papers of anyone on my property, and they better be having them on their person. Am trying to organise some other desis to do the same with their landscapers and lawnmowers.

This is why I only hire white people to do my manual labor. Don't want those damn Mexicans walking all over my lawn!

why don't you just import a good mali?

"This is why I only hire white people to do my manual labor. Don't want those damn Mexicans walking all over my lawn!"

Some of the white people might be saying that about desis as well when you are in the whiteland and take away their jobs. damn indians!

I like how we come to this side of the planet and suddenly get all self-righteous and sanctimonious about other people's paperwork. In the spirit of consistency, let's try and apply that principle the next time we're in the motherland and some 75 year old man is bringing you chai and an 8 year old kid is sweeping your aunt's floors every morning and being paid about $10 a month to do it.

I like how we come to this side of the planet and suddenly get all self-righteous and sanctimonious about other people's paperwork.

ummm, becuz i was equally self-righteous about my own papers and worked hard to get em right? cuz i dont want to be yet another exploiter of illegal workers?

arent these good enuf reasons to ask for others' papers??

Well if the sentiment behind asking for others' papers was to stop the exploitation of workers, that would be wonderful. But considering the way in which the US already exploits its workers - legal or illegal, I hardly think this is much of a concern. Ever read Nickel and Dimed? That's a great account of fully legalised workers accross the US being worked to the bone and and being screwed over at every opportunity by profit-hungry businesses. So the "we're doing this for their own good" argument doesn't really fly. I don't think anyone can convincingly show that the welfare and wellbeing of workers is in any way a priority in the US today.

brownfrown, yes well, i guess thats whats called hypocrisy... and ur spot on about the self-righteousness as well...

re: brownfrown

keep frownin' my friend because you comments are spot-on. treating workers like shit(and don't scream red! at me just yet Ynot, im not a commie) has just become so normal that extreme right-wingers think its crazy for people to demand to be treated like 'humans' with 'rights' and dignity'.

am trying to organise an amnesty international public debate at the moment at my university, and it is very sad to see some people in the media etc. who we have asked to participate think that 'human rights' are not important.

even the most selfish person on earth wants to save their own ass and be treated with some basic dignity. if people can't agree on this, then we might as well just give up and let the apes take over. at least they keep each other nit-free.

where is the love, people?

tashie, 2 ?'s for ya:

1) do u have a blog that u like to rave/rant debate on? =)heh heh... jus kiddeen!!
2) what are u studying at uni.? just wondering as u have mentioned uni. on several posts...

if u dont mind me asking that is...

=)d.

dude:

i am in my second year of a B.A. in politics and a Law degree at auckland uni - don't worry, americanos, its not a v important place except if you compare it to the only place lower than us in the world -antarctica. that's right i AM more intelligent than ice and frozen rock...ahem.

hoping to be a human rights lawyer but will probably go corporate quicker than you can say 'sell out!/quarter life crisis/model migrant'. until then, the poor pragmatic souls on here will have to listen to my idealistic self-indulgent rants, muahahaha!

i do not have a blog and didn't even know that such a strange and wonderful virtual world existed until my friend mel moved to aus and kept in touch through hers... but my recent addiction to sepiamutiny seems to call for me to start my own.

yet even now i am just procrastinatin' when should be making up some drama pieces for my students...

it is just v nice to find a brown community of like-minded people. i moved from bombay to a small hick-town in nz (which is itself the small hick-town of the world, maaaaa-te!) so its nice to get a bit more chocolate along with ma' daily vanilla.

are you a raving misinformed idealistic politics student too? we need to band together in this cold and cruel world. die, evil starbucks mccorporate misogynistic exploitative neo-imperalist MAN, die.

are you a raving misinformed idealistic politics student too? we need to band together in this cold and cruel world. die, evil starbucks mccorporate misogynistic exploitative neo-imperalist MAN, die.

um, not quite, though one of the things i did study waas psc, but most of my knowledge comes more from the field, as it were.

although, i wouldnt knock sb's too much, they have been a lifesaver in the city... always a sb's nearby no matter where u r, ahrm, rather, always a sb's loo nearby no matter where in the city u r... ahrm ahrm...sometimes i feel guilty, and will down a espDoppio just to show how macho i am.

though been fascinated with nz for a while, ever since the nz lamb ads growing up, and long before lotr's. bit cold though isnt it...

and i ask because we def. share similar ideas about some things, not all i am sure... i'd have emailed u rather then have asked in the public forum, but no email addy...

try blogger to begin with, got mine there, unrelated to sm matters though...

keep frownin' my friend because you comments are spot-on. treating workers like shit(and don't scream red! at me just yet Ynot, im not a commie) has just become so normal has just become so normal that extreme right-wingers think its crazy for people to demand to be treated like 'humans' with 'rights' and dignity'.

tash/ tashie:
remember, by caricaturing all viewpoints which are not same as yours as "extreme right wing" you are only exposing yourself as a extreme "bleeding heart liberal". Both those types are but 2 sides of the same coin.

Human rights are indeed important and worth fighting for. but if u reduce everything to extremes in your idealistic fervor (like effectively saying "all big corporations are evil", instead of recognizing that its a mixed bag and ill effects have to be minimized, probably never to be eliminated completely) you just come across as immature to me.
I do believe I come from a more realistic place. For example, by asking workers to be legal, I am not trying to do them some good or anything, but instead protecting myself by potential hassles and hopefully also set a small example for others.

hi ynot,

i never said all big companies are evil, when i was talkin about the mcstarbucks thing i was just jokin', takin the mickey outa myself cos i actually do agree with you that what we need is a balance. there are v good elements of left and right. its just that in western countries the 'centre' has effectively shifted right, which makes people some favour a balance look like bleeding heart liberals....i know there's a whole spectrum of views. i don't really mind if you think i'm immature, until i officially end my teen years i think immature is a ok by me if it means that i can still have 'fervour' or what i see as passion rather than 'urgh, let's just pick the lesser of two evils...' meh-ness.

in a way im a big fat supporter of the right, cos i come from a human rights-based perspective. not left or right, just lookin at policies to see which ones best support people's basic dignities.

just wanted to say that all in all i agree with you, but disagree with you disagreeing with me when i was agreeing with you...if that makes sense.

Hmm. I have really mixed feelings about the cuurent situation.

First of all..people who come to the US should want to come here to BE americans.

They should NOT come here with the idea that they can create Atazlan, and that certain southwestern states BELONG to Latinos ONLY.

Of coarse, the first thing I would expect to hear from this crowd is: "Oh , that's just an extreme minority"

Perhaps, but in many ways HR 3347 brought these emotions and thoughts out into the light.

The other factor is: 12 million illegal immigrants here...we could have had 12 million LEGAL immigrants from all over the world, Not just Mexico and other central and south american countries.

I agree when people say we need to make immigration and being a guest worker easier and less time consuming. HR 4437 is way overboard. But do you honestly think that the large portion of latinos protesting really want fair amounts of people coming from asia, europe, and africa?

I highly doubt it. They want latinos.

Oh, in response to Kush/ Post 14: It takes MONEY for most "business starters" to immigrate, and even then the process is ridiculous. See this:

http://www.watchingamerica.com/watchingamerica000001.shtml