Just want to point out that both the Senate bills and the House bill are terribly problematic and therefore the end result, if there is one, is likely to be really problematic as well (mostly by expanding grounds for deportation--including for green-card holders, not securing labor rights, and generally not providing for the welfare of immigrants in exchange for benefits for big business). If/when the Senate approves something, it will then go into conference committee with the House, at which point something like 10 old conservatives will make choices that affect tens of millions of people (documented and undocumented immigrants, their families--citizen or no, and everyone else).

That's why it's really important for people to show up in the streets today, tomorrow, and especially May 1--so something better than all that $hit gets passed. Otherwise, the 1.4 million deportations since '96 might be just a drop in the bucket.

I don't agree with the draconian measures of H.R.4437, but for those who came to this country illegaly and not because of ethnic/religious/political persecution, I say get in line buddy. If my father had to wait 16 - that's right 16 years, after filing for his relatives to come to the US, then y'all can go through the same hoops. And yes, I think resident-aliens who want to become citizens should have stricter guidelines smiliar to (but exactly like) the German requirements.

What is the solution, Open Borders ??

i agree with the sentiments of turbanhead. i was born in a third world country, i don't want to die in one.

quite a few south asian organizations have endorsed the public statement on immigration reform here.

I think resident-aliens who want to become citizens should have stricter guidelines smiliar to (but exactly like) the German requirements.

Since those tests are aimed at filtering out extremists, I applaud and propose we also apply them to the Bible Belt.

Razeeb (#4),

That hurts.
You really rub it in sometimes.
You know desis living in desiland are not that bad.
US took more than two centuries of independence (and a civil war)to reach where it is, cut some slack to us.

Manish (#6),

I don't think you can apply immigration laws to citizens.
In India, under no circumstance state can revoke citizenship of a born citizen.

Regards

Since those tests are aimed at filtering out extremists, I applaud and propose we also apply them to the Bible Belt.

a republic is not like a corporation, it is like islam, you come in but never go out. we can't empty our trash, so we need to control the possibility of future clutter build ups. citizenship is a contract sealed for generations, not until families are expandable.

i was naturalized in 1998, and it was a joke, the korean immigrant who interviewed me about american history and checked to see if i could speak english was barely intelligible, and during the swearing in the mexican families were basically having a picnic (dam, the cilantro smelled good) while some of the older russian dudes in the back were whipping out flasks of vodka to celebrate before the ceremony was finished. before reforming the undocumented system someone should really look at the documented track...but hey, perhaps things have changed since the INS was folded into the homeland security dept. :)

I agree with razib and turbanhead, but turbanhead:

Question 27 is typical of the test's tone: "Some people consider the Jews responsible for all the evil in the world and even claim they are behind the Sept. 11 attack in New York. What do you think about such suggestions?"

I don't know whether to laugh my ass off about how the question was phrased or stand in awe at Germany's progress.

While I'm against illegal immigration, I am also against all the provisions in the immigration reform bill. I know I wouldn't be here if my parent's didn't make it out here legally...but isn't there a better way to deal with illegal immigrant than these ridiculous provisions.

Does it still take 16 years for a foreigner to legally come to America? Surely reducing the lag time would partially help against illegal immigration.

That hurts. You really rub it in sometimes. You know desis living in desiland are not that bad. US took more than two centuries of independence (and a civil war)to reach where it is, cut some slack to us.

it wasn't meant in a mean spirit. i apologize if it was taken as such. according to divya's posts india is close to paradise, you keep yours and i'll keep mine :)

though seriously, i went to bangladesh 2 years ago after a long absence. there is something distinctly insiduous about being a prince among peons, better a pauper among peers (this actually goes against the grain of some behavorial economics, call me a freak). the quality of life that most of us enjoy here in the west is contingent upon the social capital built up over centuries of history. our nation is more than a contract put in place to arbitrate capitalist transctions between consenting adults, it is a cult of constitution.

in any case, look, as i like to say whenever people tear hair out over israel-palestine, 2.5 million people have died, been displaced or turned into refugees in the dem. republic of congo over the past 10 years. i think even i would have a somewhat hard time rejecting people who have walked through hell and lived to tell us about it, let them be our servile worker caste, the lawns need mowing and the dishes need washing, better than running from cannibalistic rebels. if you truly want the world's unwanted and huddled masses why open your hearts to those strong enough to run?

South Asians here ARE organizing - just got back from an amazing Town Hall meeting, more to come on that soon... South Asian Network will be holding a candle lit vigil at 6pm at the corner of Broadway and I think Cesar Chavez, as well as thousands of other immigrant community.

Can't find a rally? Go HERE - it has a list and a petition of rallies going on in your neighborhood.

From what I gathered, the bill is going through many revisions in the Senate side of the committee. I think we have two weeks for the bill to go through Senate. I do believe that a comprehensive immigration reform bill is needed, but I don't feel the options that are being given are the right solutions.

Does it still take 16 years for a foreigner to legally come to America? Surely reducing the lag time would partially help against illegal immigration.

Yes, and no. People forget they are dozens of ways to come to USA. Some of them are very fast - Athletes are made US citizens over-night before Olympic trials. Professors and medical professionals from overseas are brought on with all the paper work done on fast track. A tenured professor appointment can get a green card in less than 6 months. Not to talk about VonBraun and Alabama Rocket scientists, some of the top notch nuclear scientists from USSR were immigrated to US immediately after the iron curtain fell in '89 lest they disappear.

Asylum, marriage - all have different rules. If you bring in a business to US and/ or million dollars to US - you can walk in with whatever immigration status you want.

Turbanhead is talking about immigration through relative - that does take a long time.

Even most of the visitors on SM are second genners - do visit USCIS website sometimes.

I think South Asian should actively engage in Immigration debate right now.

We got my grandpa's visa in the mail about 2 months after he died.
What needs to be reformed is not people's attitudes toward coming here, but the immigration system itself: the paperwork needs to be processed faster (not to mention the fact that they need to check on the "living/dead" status of the people they're processing). I know nothing about the process, but it obviously needs to be changed. Where's the bill for that?

Just a heads' up that the "someone else" has some intersting blogposts on this:

Census crunching, the LA March and noting the school walkouts.

Like anti-war activism, I think it would be helpful to have some good, cohestive proposals on what kind of immigration regulation we do want. Otherwise I get lost after a while.

Razeeb (12#)

My earlier remark was meant in jest. India is not a paradise, Indians like me are trying to make best of what we got from previous generation(not all of which was bad).

Back to the immigration topic (in USA)

From what little I have read, there are two issues.

1) Whether the laws admitting immigration are just or not.
2) What should be done with alien who violate the immigration laws.

So far what I have seen is the emphasis is on 2nd, what about the first?

IMO the immigration should be allowed, if the benefit from immigration outweight the social cost plus economic cost.

I don't think there is anything inhumane with fencing the border, only I am not sure (from example of India)that it works.
Also in case there is a violation some slack can be cut depending on the conduct.

Regards

Sonia and others regarding the visa backlog issue - actually, the immigration proposals that advocates have been pushing include a provision that would eliminate the visa backlog. Currently, in the US, there are between 3 and 6 million visa applications that are stuck in the system.

There are bills that would address both legalization as well as the visa backlog - in fact, the four principles that immigrant rights advocates have laid out for immigration reform (see the South Asian organizational statement that Abhi links to in his post) includes the eliminaton of the visa backlog. The bill that addresses this squarely is the McCain-Kennedy bill. The immigration reform package that advocates have been proposing is comprehensive and broad. Unfortunately, Congress has not really been listening. Hopefully, the April 10th rallies will make a difference

I think it would be helpful to have some good, cohestive proposals on what kind of immigration regulation we do want.

i don't know about we, but i know about me :)

1) reduce numbers allowed in so that population can have a chance to stabilize (operationally, these means the population of california, new york, illinois and texas). say 200,000.

2) remove national quotas and 'diversity' lotteries. i have relatives who came because of 'diversity,' and trust me, there's a lot of loserish diversity you don't want!

3) prioritize those with money and education. let's suck out all the intellectual and monetary capital out of the rest of the world, this country is floating on a sea of debt and we need all the capable soldiers we can get our hands on when the foreigners call in their loans! and if we can get the plutocrats to move here, hell, they have an incentive in not letting this country go argentina.

4) fuck families. discourage the transplantation of villages via chain migration, select for cosmopolitan mavericks who have roarkian fantasies :)

5) build a high ass wall on the southern border. if we have to do it out of fairness, build a wall up north to keep the damn canadians out too! (no offense)

6) penalize the shit out of businesses who hire people without papers. sure, some people have nice ass papers, but set up a system to confirm the reality of SS numbers.

7) abolish birthright citizenship.

Stronger border controls is necessary for any reform to be effective. Government processing guest workers will allow the speeding train that is migrant labor to switch tracks from the illegal to legal avenues. But it will slow it down, unless the govt. devotes enough resources for processing migrants. If it slows down, you will still have border jumpers, and ultimately it undermines the reform. In today's global economy, we need these folks as much as they need us. However, one also needs to build incentive for someone to come here legally vs illegally.

Also, more resources are needed at the border to nail drug runners and smugglers who will still use the vast desert stretches to get their goods in. I don't think a wall has ever stopped anyone, but we need more resources. More agents on patrols and more technology giving us an edge.

Desi cabbies who are illegal probably just want to stay under the radar. Elements of the right and left in this country has primarily turned this into a latino issue. I gotta say though, groups that raised Mexican flags on flag poles, or ones that use signs that specifically call 'European Americans' land stealers from Native Americans aren't helping their causes. You want to sell America that you belong here? Nothing catches the imagination better than masses waving the American flag (which has happened).

For any effective immigration bill to work, all sides need to de-couple this from the racial lines (as hard it is). Far too many people on the right are worried about illegals affecting their 'lives' and 'culture'. Too late, look around. American culture has been changed and for the better. Similarly, folks who espouse to turn the former Mexican territories into Mexico again aren't welcome either. Lawmakers who get hung up on 'Amnesty' aren't being realistic.

Fundamentally, I'm not happy giving folks who broke the law knowing all the consequences that goes along with it a free pass. But one has to be realisitc. 11-20 million people can't be deported and sorting through who came here when is a mess the govt. is not equipped to handle and deal with. Sealing borders, opening up the guest worker program, and letting folks who are here already stay (executing it concurrently) is the only logical option. Doing one and not doing the others will undermine any real reform.

the April 10th rallies will make a difference

yeah might, who knows? but they'll scare the crap out of the trash we can't export.

In today's global economy, we need these folks as much as they need us

we need programmers & scientists. some economic efficiency and vibrancy will be lost with more expensive produce, unkempt lawns and closure of marginal restaurants, but not much.

ar too many people on the right are worried about illegals affecting their 'lives' and 'culture'. Too late, look around. American culture has been changed and for the better.

telemundo? :)

Abhi - honest post, and good points. I'll be in the streets tomorrow for a lot of reasons.

GujuDude (20 #)

I gotta say though, groups that raised Mexican flags on flag poles, or ones that use signs that specifically call 'European Americans' land stealers from Native Americans aren't helping their causes

I agree, what were they thinking ?

Regards

7) abolish birthright citizenship.

Damn Razib, throws everything about what we know to be a citizen on it's side. (is that how that saying goes?) Citizens as a commodity to increase the productivity of the US, and if you are not productive you are out? The new citizen definition? citizen not connected to a nation state...going back to pre-french revolution...

I agree with Saheli, these reform debates can get confusing, I wish someone would give me a decent proposed policy instead of telling me why all these reforms are wrong.

I LIED - the vigil tomorrow in LA is at 5 pm, not 6pm! Sorry!

Razeeb (19#)

7) abolish birthright citizenship.

StarShip Troopers anyone ?
Are you a Robert Heinlein fan ??

Regards

Girls on telemundo's soaps are hot. Not that I watch em, I've merely flipped through them at times. Yea.

in any case, look, as i like to say whenever people tear hair out over israel-palestine, 2.5 million people have died, been displaced or turned into refugees in the dem. republic of congo over the past 10 years. i think even i would have a somewhat hard time rejecting people who have walked through hell and lived to tell us about it, let them be our servile worker caste, the lawns need mowing and the dishes need washing, better than running from cannibalistic rebels. if you truly want the world's unwanted and huddled masses why open your hearts to those strong enough to run?

?) Citizens as a commodity to increase the productivity of the US, and if you are not productive you are out?

interesting you say that...all the pro-documentation people i've heard talk on the radio always add a large (preponderant) dollop of economic talking points straight out of CATO!!! no, the measures i propose might reduce economic growth some, but increase the quality of life for those i care about and myself (i live in a state with controlled growth boundaries and such). the point is we can't export the economically unproductive or the socially unpalatable. i'm not a big fan of crackers dancing with snakes, but do we want to add mexican peasants who see the virgin mary in the face of a melting snowman to the docket of the fellow american loons? we have a moral obligation to them once they are citizens because they are our fellow citizens. but, i am not a universalist, i don't want the tired and huddled masses of the rest of the world, i want the best and the brightest. but, if you are going to make the humanitarian case, then there are many causes out there. light a candle for the children of the congo, not the undocumented nicaraguan dishwasher, is his life dearer because he is nearer? yes, perhaps...but then you lose me with the humanitarian stuff, i care far more about the near as well.

Are you a Robert Heinlein fan ??

not too much. more asimov myself.

Our larger community has been pigeon-holed right now as only being interested in a few selected issues.

yup, u couldnt have said it better. and might i be bold enough to add, rather self-interested and rather selfish issues at that. this is going to be a very long and hard fought, yes, fought, thread.

as some have already indicated to basically credify abhi's statement above, it seems to me, that people who are "in" want to keep the others out, regardless of whether they arrived here as legal or not. people i know who came as students, stayed as illegals, doing work outside of their original brief,then managed to get themselves legal again, have been the most ardent supporters of keeping the new lot out. people whose livelihoods are very unlikely to be challenged by newcomers in any way, still, very vocal against the "riff-raff", their words, not mine, coming in these days.

the argument that "well, i did it legally, so must you" is a load of, sorry, but crap. let me be clear here, i live in the US, legally, went to school and work legally, but by no means am i a gc holder or citizen. when my tenure here is done, i'm packing up and moving on to the next country. i have not been adversely affected by immigraton reforms thus far, and i wont be by this one either. but to hear the ones who got in say no to others when so many people with newly started lives in our communities did it illegally,makes my blood boil.

shear hypocrisy. these latest reforms are knee-jerk reactions, and this too will pass after they have calmed down the latest xenophobia against the for-ge-nars, specially ones who are brown, because i doubt they will seriously deport a bunch of brits and germans and spaniards or italians for overstaying their visas, it will be us brown lot.

gc status or citizenship is no protection either. they can haul ur ass off when and as they want, and all they have to do is retrolegislate that all legal immigration from country x (read bangladesh or nigeria..etc) is null and void, and then u too will wish someone stood up and voiced support.

once again, another good post a., lets see the comments roll...

5) build a high ass wall on the southern border. if we have to do it out of fairness, build a wall up north to keep the damn canadians out too! (no offense)

Razib,
Every good analysis (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/08/60minutes/main1108476.shtml) I have seen on the immigration issue thinks this is a bad idea. In addtion to being a massive waste of tax payer money it isn't likely to stop the flow of immigrants one bit. What it will do is set up a racist and dehumanizing system like at the check points in the West Bank.

From the CBS story:
[Fortified fences like the one in Nogales, Arizona, protect only about five percent of the U.S.-Mexican border.

Bonner thinks that the number of illegal migrants has actually gone up since the barrier went up. Does he think the millions spent on the fence were a waste of money?

"I think that’s a fair assessment," says Bonner.

The U.S. government has spent about $20 billion on border control over the past 12 years. But Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo insists that is just not enough.

"If you only put the fence for this five miles of border, people will go around it, naturally. You have to secure your borders!" says Rep. Tancredo.

He recommends sealing off the entire border, building fences. How much more should the government spend?

"Whatever it takes," Tancredo says. "Billions more. Billions more. Ed, why not? It is our job. It is what the federal government should be doing!"]

I wish someone would give me a decent proposed policy instead of telling me why all these reforms are wrong.

I think McCain-Kennedy proposal is pretty decent. It seems most realistic.

On longer view, US does need a special immigration policy for scientists and engineers (even more robust than the existing one) to keep them competitive, on same war footing as space race days. China is catching up big time - I think what they (Chinese) seriously lack is a creative climate for innovation but still.........

RE: #19

Razib, can you explain what you mean by this a little better? Can this really be as cold and condescending as it sounds?

cold yes, condescending, perhaps.

my point is simple, i hear two primary refrains about undocumented

1) we need them economically

2) it is a humanitarian issue that they live on the margins

now, as some have noted, a large % (perhaps the majority) of the undocumented are from mexico. this is a nation with a per capita GDP of $10,000. india has a per capita GDP of $3,400, and bangladesh a little less than $2,000. i think if you do the utilitarian calculus that citizens from the latter two nations would accrue more aggregate happiness from being inducted into the menial guest worker caste than mexicans, who come from a middle income nation. but, i think the best argument is to bring over africans from war torn nations, since they would accrue the greatest utilitarian good.

but actually...though i do have some humanitarian sentiments, i'm sitting here eating an orange (a good one at that) and typing on a computer and baiting people on a community weblog at 11:25 PM rather than doing something to help the people of the world. so yeah, i guess i am kind of cold-hearted. now, if any of you threaten my cat, i'm up off my ass in at a moment's notice. be warned, you know what motivates me!

Abhi (32#)

What it will do is set up a racist and dehumanizing system like at the check points in West Bank.

Isn't comparision of US-Mexican border with Israel- Palestinian border a little overstretched.
However you do have a point when you say that it can not be implemented in practice.

Kush (33#)

I seriously doubt that China will be able to catch up with US anytime soon.
Can India do this, I wish.

Regards

It's a difficult question really. On one hand, immigration has been the formula for the USA's success for centuries. On the other hand, the problems associated with illegal immigration are real as well. The usual solution offered is to say that only the worse off (political asylum seekers, refugees etc.) and the best off (doctors, informaticiens, etc.) should be let in. What about the rest of the world? Don't they have a right to choice as well?
If we just pull back from this debate and get an overview of the subject: the earth and all it's natural beauty were carved up by man a few winks ago (in terms of mankind's total history) and called countries, and all those within those lines at that point of time were made prisoners within those lines. Who gives us the right to decide where man can set foot and where he cannot? I look forward to a world where the tyranny and arbitrariness of visas is a thing of the past.

On longer view, US does need a special immigration policy for scientists and engineers (even more robust than the existing one) to keep them competitive, on same war footing as space race days. China is catching up big time - I think what they (Chinese) seriously lack is a creative climate for innovation but still.........

amen! hold the trash, but pile up the good recyclables.

two questions---
1. how many indians would you expect are illegally in the US? does anyone have a ballpark? i know, for example, that the number of chinese in the US illegally is high, and it seems to be common knowledge in the chinese community. from what i gather, there are even standard rates for smuggling people here from china, an entire support structure---places you can stay once you are here as well as jobs you can do.

2. (little unrelated) how many indians care for a citizenship (as opposed to residency)? from what i see here, a lot of newcomers i meet are not particularly bothered abt it.

@14, kush
re: tenured professors---it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured :). so unless you are an imminent gold medal winning olympic athlete, it does take 15+ years to become a citizen.

india is the best! let's apply some eastern wisdom.

abhi, i'm skeptical about the skepticism about the wall, but perhaps you know something i don't. we won't know that it fails until we try. as it is, i think you are on the side of history. our population will balloon to 500 million and we will shift toward a corporatist state.

re: tenured professors---it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured :). so unless you are an imminent gold medal winning olympic athlete, it does take 15+ years to become a citizen.

don't people get sponsored immediately when they get a tenure track spot?

I look forward to a world where the tyranny and arbitrariness of visas is a thing of the past.

i'll see you in the gated community then brother.

taz and saheli,

there isn't a comprehensive proposal out there for a variety of reasons (most notably because a bunch of immigration policy f@#ks in dc decided to make a compromise with mccain knowing that it would lead to something worse without even trying to mobilize to shift the debate--largely because they're so disconnected). It's probably the case that for Congress to pass nothing right now would be better than to pass anything they have on the table (although you might want to look at Sheila Jackon Lee's bill).

However, there are elements of different proposals that are coming together; we may just have to wait for the movement to put itself in a position of enough strength to get these things through (which is why it's SO important for people to show up in the streets)--because it not only has to fight back against the Senate and House bills right now, but it has to do what you're suggesting too. Here's a sampling of ideas from different groups (i'm sure there are others):

break the chains (chinese staff and workers association, nmass, aaldef, about a dozen other groups) want a repeal of employer sanctions. so this is coming from a place of wanting stronger worker rights protections. nmass has also supported (and maybe break the chains as a whole?) a "rolling registry" which would basically eliminate these periodic discussions about how to deal with the "broken" immigration system and instead create a system where people who have been in the country for several years would automatically be eligible for greencards. i've heard other people advocate this idea.

people i talked to in the one demonstration I went to wanted green cards immediately (one lady was charitable enoguh to say that immediately would be impractical, so three months from now would be okay :) That's also the demand of the May 1st action I linked above (which is being pushed by the people who organized the LA demonstration). No one I spoke to supported a guestworker program that would lead to green cards 5-10-15 years down the road.

i think the families for freedom / immigrant defense project line has been to repeal the provisions in the 1996 laws that further criminalize immigarnts.

there are others with different demands to advocate for immigrants.

So it seems that no one (or collectively, everyone) has put the full package together yet, but there are a number of separate proposals that could ideally get combined into an immigrant rights package. generally speaking, there's been a fair amount of criticism of the bills on the lack of worker rights protections (from immigrant communities in action, break the chains, drum major institute, friends of farmworkers, afl-cio, etc.) that i see at the core of a lot of the opposition. aside from the employer sanctions thing (which i still don't fully understand how it would actually protect he rights of migrant workers though i can understand the argument about how it historically led to the deterioration of rights), i haven't heard many strong proactive arguments for the worker rights protections.

So this is an inchoate progressive agenda--it's not something that everyone who supports immigrants going to agree on all aspects of. The point is that these kinds of ideas assembled together should be the leftmost pole of the immigration debate, not a sellout bill that allows big business to exploit the f@#k out of immigrant workers with the stamp of approval from immigrant rights organizations.

it takes on an average 7+ years after a phd to become tenured :)

byteword,

Yes, I know and that too if one gets a tenured position immediately.

However, I have seen many cases where a fresh academic appointment/ offer from oversees is made to someone, and the EB-1 (Extra Ordinary Category - 1) / NIW (National Interest waiver) combo used to fast track the whole thing, the green card part.

I just wanted to say there are ways of moving fast, if there are parties backing you up (just prove that your research helps homeland security). I used some of the combos - and therefore, I am up on terminology and even then things can be really slow, unless you are headed for olympic medal (as you said).

2. (little unrelated) how many indians care for a citizenship (as opposed to residency)? from what i see here, a lot of newcomers i meet are not particularly bothered abt it.

You are totally correct- no figures cuz no one likes to fund SAA research (ahem) but word on the voting right front is that since SAA have a low rate of assimilation (i.e. getting citizenship) it is harder to fight for their voting rights. So part one of that is getting them to become citizens.

Razib, in your perfect world, how would you define US citizen and who would be excluded?

Personally, with the immigration debate- I'm conflicted with the words of illegal immigrants- it seems that the history of exclusionary immigration practice - it all just seems unfair. It's late, and too late for me to be articulate on this- but if we didn't get the right to be naturalized until 1956 in the US, didn't that make us some version of an illegal immigrant for all those years before that?

Just read that the amount of international students coming to study in the US has decreased (in relation to importing educated immigrants)...

(All y'all are up this late for a wonky debate?)

All y'all are up this late for a wonky debate?

It's kind of hot isn't it? Makes me think that the "Sepia Destiny" idea might help a lot of people :)

Just read that the amount of international students coming to study in the US has decreased (in relation to importing educated immigrants)...

Yes, That is a fall out of post 9/11 visa crack-down but it is picking again. Lovely senator, Barbara Boxer wanted a moratorium of 6 months on international students immediately after 9/11.

If you read Science, the US administration is getting really nervous about it. In fact, there is talk of federal graduate fellowships for international students (outside of Fulbright) for the first time.

Taz, it's not discriminatory if it applies to everyone. I do think the current immigration law is broken. If there really is a need for cheap foreign labor, create a cheap foreign labor visa and let anyone apply for it. Sneaking it in as amnesty for illigals, smacks of geographic discrimination at the very least and xenophobia at worst.

Razib, in your perfect world, how would you define US citizen and who would be excluded?

someone naturalized, or someone born to a US citizen. i'd exclude everyone else. if you mean who i'd exclude from the immigrant pool, i would bias it against people without college educations and with a poor grasp of english. but there are exceptions to every rule, i am fine with some slots for exceptional people who are only secondary school educated.

yes, the system is unfair. in fact, i do in my heart cheer for illegals who are making a good go of it, i'm human. but in my head i believe this is a nation of laws which emerged organically out of the culture of the anglo-saxon waves of settlement prior to 1776 (puritans, planters, scots-irish and middle colonials), subsequently reshaped, but fundamentally not remade, but later waves of immigrants (germans gave us beer, the irish gave us beer, the italians gave us wine, etc.).

Sneaking it in as amnesty for illigals, smacks of geographic discrimination at the very least and xenophobia at worst.

life isn't fair. don't hate on the latinos for having the good fortune of being placed south of el norte :)

oh, and we'll always been geoist. i believe the quotas have always been WAY higher for western hemisphere immigration than for eastern hemisphere immigration.

Not hating. The existence of predominant biases do not condone the maintenance of status quo. Or, just cuz it's always been broken, it doesn't mean you shouldn't fix it.

If "care for citizenship" can be measured in rate of naturalization- according to research by Paul Ong, Asian Indians have a naturalization rate of 26% for 6-10yrs in the US, 53% for 11-15 yrs, and 68% 16-20yrs. [From a book called Reframing the Immigration Debate published by UCLA]

If the immigration laws are constantly changing, doesn't that inherently make it discriminatory?

Not hating. The existence of predominant biases do not condone the maintenance of status quo. Or, just cuz it's always been broken, it doesn't mean you shouldn't fix it.

how many marchers can you move senor? :)

Is the post's author sure he wants to rely on Wikipedia as a source?

This is the first time I've heard that the children of illegal aliens would become wards of the state, and I would have heard that before if it were true. Should you really trust Wikipedia entries?

The Georgia illegal aliens rally was organized by a former Mexican Consul General. ANSWER is involved in several of the upcoming illegal alien rallies. Are the readers of this site certain they want to march down that particular road?

BTW, this is the second time I've commented here; the first time someone said they'd visited my site and thought I sounded like Pat Buchanan. Actually, a comparison with this guy is more accurate.

how many marchers can you move senor? :)

Depends... does the crowd include pretty peurto rican girls prone to persuasion by alliteration?

life isn't fair.

no kidding--that's why around 500,000 people marched in Dallas today :) And they'll keep doing it unless someone subverts them (most likely by passing a bill).

i believe this is a nation of laws which emerged organically out of the culture of the anglo-saxon waves of settlement prior to 1776 (puritans, planters, scots-irish and middle colonials), subsequently reshaped, but fundamentally not remade, but later waves of immigrants (germans gave us beer, the irish gave us beer, the italians gave us wine, etc.).

Are you drinking? ;) It's funny how you left out how many of those emigrants came without permission and were allowed to vote nonetheless (sometimes even as noncitizens), the decimation of the original American Indian populations who probably have interesting thoughts about this debate, abnd the forced immigration of Black people as slaves--all of which were significant features in the building of the "nation of laws." And I think Black people have contributed at least as much to American culture as any other group--from W.E.B. Dubois to Biggie. They certainly contributed to almost every single person commenting on this post being here; I would assume that the 1965 immigration laws that legalized Asian immigration and citizenship probably wouldn't have passed outside the context of a broader civil rights movement.

Anyway, when the laws are f@#ked up, you change them. That's the way things should work. Your head is lying to you razib :)

does the crowd include pretty peurto rican girls prone to persuasion by alliteration

they are born americanos, what do you they care? :)

Dude, in comment #31, really called this one: let's get ready to ruummble!!

these latest reforms are knee-jerk reactions, and this too will pass after they have calmed down the latest xenophobia against the for-ge-nars, specially ones who are brown, because i doubt they will seriously deport a bunch of brits and germans and spaniards or italians for overstaying their visas, it will be us brown lot.

Yes. I entirely agree. My family came here as asylum seekers from Sri Lanka, realized how impossible that would be, so we went the family route... my citizenship-holding grandmother sponsored my mother and she sponsored the rest of us. Until that time we did any and every job that came our way, and lived well below the poverty line for about seven years. We paid taxes, got nothing in return, and my national merit scholarship was denied at first because I was a green-card holder, not a citizen.

Y'all remember Andrew Dice Clay? I can never forget seeing him on TV, about two months after we immigrated, joking about all the "shit-colored" people in the airport arrivals. He was the most popular comedian at the time, unless I'm mistaken. Wonderful to see that TV audience chuckle and chortle.

What the hell is "riff-raff"? If those other immigrants decide to eat a snack in the waiting room, or celebrate with a shot of vodka, how exactly does that make them inferior people, Razib? The INS process is utterly dehumanizing, and if you got through it by holding your nose above the rest as you waited (and waited, and waited and waited) in that cramped waiting room...well, to each his own, I guess. But you do realize you imply a Eurocentric yardstick? If perfect English and a stiff-upper lip are the best qualifications for citizenship, most Americans should have theirs revoked.

My favorite reading material on this issue is Alien Nation by Peter Brimelow. As a recent English immigrant himself, Brimelow takes it upon himself to tell Americans that they are good-hearted chumps, suckered by all this talk of "multiculturalism" and "plurality." Correlations are ever so wittily passed off as causality (including that still-beloved saw about % of black men in jail) as he fears for his "blue eyed blonde" son's future among the "brown hordes."

And, lest you think he's some gauche racist, he assures you that this is simply verifiable fact, for what is he if not an immigrant himself?! If HE twinkled into this country so easily...well!! So has everyone else, and, you know, Americans are jsut lucky that he's the sort of guy who puts his self-interest aside to point out the flaws in the system. America's problems are all traced back to 1965 immigration reform....cuz, that's when this country went to hell right? With the riots and the hippies and stuff? In the good olde days when North Europeans were the only sort allowed in (3% of the country of origin and all that) America was fine!! Thriving!!

I see the logic in the argument that illegal immigration negatively affects the lowest economic brackets by creating artificial wage suppression. I like the idea of the guest-worker program, but see the possibily for so many loopholes that I need to read more about it before venturing a solid opinion. As for this bill... I'm just going to wait until some dirt-digging expose reveals the politicians who voted for it who have nannies and gardners and cleaning ladies with unpaid social security taxes...

It's funny how you left out how many of those emigrants came without permission and were allowed to vote nonetheless

actually, the puritans (for example) deported the illiterate, the indigent, and discouraged the emigration of nobles. they vetted potential colonists and sampled out of the top half of the socioeconomic brackets of east anglia. and look how great massachusetts turned out! in contrast, the scotch-irish "crackers" were dirt poor and could barely afford their passage...and look how appalachia turned out. hm....

the decimation of the original American Indian populations who probably have interesting thoughts about this debate

that decimation was a force of nature (the original native population lacked HLA diversity against eurasian pathogens). the reason the settlement was easy was because they died off in large part before 95% of the settlers showed up. not that it makes it any more moral....

And I think Black people have contributed at least as much to American culture as any other group--from W.E.B. Dubois to Biggie.

perhaps we should show a little gratitude to black americans then and not contribute to the erosion of their working class with the wholesale importation of an industrious and lower wage competitor class? anyway, 49% of black americans opposed amnesty vs. 43% who favored it a few years back, so if you want to play the "black people like us" card, go ahead....

how exactly does that make them inferior people, Razib? The INS process is utterly dehumanizing, and if you got through it by holding your nose above the rest as you waited (and waited, and waited and waited) in that cramped waiting room...well, to each his own, I guess. But you do realize you imply a Eurocentric yardstick? If perfect English and a stiff-upper lip are the best qualifications for citizenship, most Americans should have theirs revoked.

hey cic, are you a mind reader. since when did i say "inferior"? anyway, yes, i like eurocentric yardsticks. i don't deny it. this is a western country and i want it to stay that way. i can always move back to bangladesh if i miss old world diversity :) if they deport me because i'm brown, that sucks, but i won't starve in b-desh (though i'd have to learn to read that language i guess).

that decimation was a force of nature (the original native population lacked HLA diversity against eurasian pathogens). the reason the settlement was easy was because they died off in large part before 95% of the settlers showed up.

Not, of course, that smallpox blankets had anything to do with it.

Hello (57#),

I don't think that It is a good idea to question the history of Americans (or Honkies), if you want to make a pitch for illegal immigrants.

Regards

Not, of course, that smallpox blankets had anything to do with it.

cic, that was quantitatively trivial. 1491 is a decent lit survey if a bit poppy.

if they deport me because i'm brown, that sucks, but i won't starve in b-desh (though i'd have to learn to read that language i guess).

I've never known you to be glib before now Razib. You are man of multifacted chromosomes, apparently.

I'll remember your words next time I hear about the latest famine in Bangladesh. Damn..something must really be wrong with those people (genetic predisposition to early apoptosis?) if they're droppin' like flies and they even speak the language!

@41 razib and 44 kt,

these days, the way it works in academia is this: you get a h-1 very quickly without trouble (you do not fall in the 60k-odd quota). then the univ applies for your gc. also, and this is not just in academics, many times immigration lawyers do *not* recommend the 'exceptional' eb-1 category, presumably since there is more potential for mischief and unnecessary delays by the immigration officials (esp if you are from iran, etc.).

but while, like you both say, you can expect the gc to through without too much trouble if you are in academia, it is not necessarily faster.

i don't know abt the national interest waiver, or what happens if your research is for homeland security. but then these days, every blue-sky research proposal from linguistics to biology to circuits claims to defend america against terrorists. don't want to fund my large-deviation-analysis of markov-chain-monte-carlo-methods for volume-estimation? terrorists will come and get you. :) you can replace the hyphenated phrases with your pet topics, and voila you have a new research proposal for the nsf.

citizenship by naturalization is no different if you are in academia.

I'll remember your words next time I hear about the latest famine in Bangladesh. Damn..something must really be wrong with those people (genetic predisposition to early apoptosis?) if they're droppin' like flies and they even speak the language!

bangladesh hasn't had a famine in a while. things aren't that bad there, and people are having fewer kids and women are working in the garment factories (my relatives complain about not being able to get servants because of walmart). and yes, something is really wrong with those people from where i stand...but i a lot of them like that way. i'm eurocentric, but not a universalist in implementation.

re: 66,
i forgot a disclaimer. i am no lawyer, so that post is just my perception. you should take it with a pinch of salt.

i'm eurocentric, but not a universalist in implementation.

Well, that's a relief. Cuz I generally like you Razib, and would hate to think that you didn't realize that you don't measure up in the eyes of the sort of people who generally wield eurocentric yardsticks.

and would hate to think that you didn't realize that you don't measure up in the eyes of the sort of people who generally wield eurocentric yardsticks.

well, we are using different definitions of "eurocentric" :) the heart matters more than blood.

ah, but the blood's easier to measure, isn't it? Phenotypes and all that?

@53 taz,
thanks. re: the statistics--i assume they mean 26% of those who have stayed 6-10 years are naturalized (or applied for it), 53% of those who have stayed 11-15 years and 68% of those who stayed 16-20 years, right?

if so, how many stay more than 10 years, more than 15 years, etc?

ok i'm too sleepy now.

perhaps we should show a little gratitude to black americans then and not contribute to the erosion of their working class with the wholesale importation of an industrious and lower wage competitor class? anyway, 49% of black americans opposed amnesty vs. 43% who favored it a few years back, so if you want to play the "black people like us" card, go ahead....

Razib, i actually was playing the "Black people and American Indians shouldn't be written out of U.S. history" card. In any case, I agree that the immigrant rights movement should pay more respect to the needs and concerns of Black Americans...but that means working with them, not conceding your own welfare because some Black people are xenophobic. For example, instead of supporting the business-friendly bills in front of congress, one might support something that actually offered real labor protections--like an immediate amnesty, but any number of other things could substitute or are also needed. I'm not even going to address your point that the entirety of the destruction of American Indians was due to genetic inability to resist illness (though that was obviously a part of it). Just look up Manifest Destiny when you get a chance.

There are bills that would address both legalization as well as the visa backlog - in fact, the four principles that immigrant rights advocates have laid out for immigration reform (see the South Asian organizational statement that Abhi links to in his post) includes the eliminaton of the visa backlog. The bill that addresses this squarely is the McCain-Kennedy bill. The immigration reform package that advocates have been proposing is comprehensive and broad. Unfortunately, Congress has not really been listening. Hopefully, the April 10th rallies will make a difference

Immigrant rights advocate, I'm glad you like immigrant rights, but your analysis is off. First of all, there isn't uniformity of opinion among advocates. Secondly, even the monolithic opinions that have been coming forth from "immigrant rights groups" have been shifting in response to the show of force by...actual immigrants--and rightly so. Thirdly, those demands are still not really in accord with what the few people I've talked to who are actually undocumented have asked for, or with groups that have more systemic analyses of aspects of the problem (for example, here's more information from Immigrant Defense Project on what these bills would actually do in terms of deportation).

Finally, McCain-Kennedy was never plausible as it stood because it started out as a compromise and then proceeded to go downhill from there (some of its basic ideas are currently incorporated into the horrible comrpomise that the Senate was reported to have reached); anyone who supported it either didn't understand the process by which bills become laws or was willing to sacrifice immigrants to get something, anything through Congress, regardless of whether the end result would be an improvement.

The provisions that "immigrant advocates" in DC were boosting--the guestworker program and the "earned legalization"--amount to making current undocumented people and future migrants wait for another 5-10-15 years before getting green card status, working in the meantime in a stiutation that makes their immigration status contingent on their employment, and in other ways basically makes them wholly controlled by the business entities that want them here, but want them controlled. That's one of the reasons the Drum Major Policy Institute, Friends of Farmworkers, Chinese Staff and Workers Association, National Mobilization Against Sweatshops, and a whole bunch of other progressive peopple don't support McCain-Kennedy and why many people with a lot to lose from further deterioration of workers rights (like working class citizens of all colors) are listening to xenophobes like Lou Dobbs instead of immigrant rights advocates.

All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.

!!! This is nuts!!!

though that was obviously a part of it

it was a preponderant part of it, direct genocide was mop up. most of the fertile areas of the west (eg., the willimate valley) "emptied" out before the 1840s when the large contingents of whites arrived. in fact, some regions were becoming reforested (the natives burned regularly to prune, you a shift in pollen type in the late 18th century as trees replace grass). as a contrast, look at the highlands of peru, the indigenous majority remains in part because spanish women had extremely high miscarriage rates at such elevations, and tropical diseases gained little traction and the population bounced back quickly enough.

this is not to deny the brutality of the invasion and conquest of the new world, but it seems plausible that ~90% of the native population died because of massive plagues which moved ahead of the main wave with itinerant traders and the various networks. such mortality rates shouldn't surprise that much, the black plague killed 1/3 of europeans in a generation and this is a eurasian population that was heavily innoculated with tens of thousands of years of transcontinental pathogens. it has almost certainly happened before, with the neolithic revolution, and it is happening in the andaman islands now (though vaccination is mitigating the pathogenic assault somewhat).

in any case, this is OT and not really relevant to the rest of the thread, but the point is that the facts are what they are. you can draw whatever conclusions you want from them.

@mina, #74

why so? legally they *are* citizens, since anyone who is registered as born in the US is.

so, if the kids are not taken back by the parents the state has to look after them. if the kids do go back, they are just citizens who will come back when they are old enough. it is not as if people will come to the US illegally to deliver kids. it is easier to fake a birth certificate than to risk life and limb.

Kind of scared that I'm gonna sound like a crazy sociologist version of the mad scientist here but what do people think of the idea that the reluctance shown by educated (read: wealthier) immigrants to help out illegal (read: poor) immigrants not just in other communities, but within our own, might be a sign of colonisation-by-wealth?

All that really seems to be going on is that people have replaced race with wealth as the factor which determines whether someone is an inferior/superior person or not. Hence the reluctance (by some, not all) from other immigrant communities to help Mexicans and the Mexican-American community on this issue. I'm an Indian New Zealander and I'm not sure about Indian-Americans (most of my rellies live in the States) but over here the doctors would rather align themselves with mainly European doctors than with the poor shopkeeper, even if it means sometimes allowing racial discrimination to run riot among people who come here illegally but take up the good old fob jobs driving our taxis, serving our burgers and filling up petrol in our cars.

If all we have done with our post-colonial identity is learn to replace racial discrimination with wealth discrimination (and I know these two are so interlinked it sounds weird to separate them and I probably shouldn't) - there shouldn't just be white guilt but brown guilt too. In the past few years the Indian economy has boomed but its only the middle and upper classes like us who've benefitted, I know that's a 'duh' point but just think its kind of sad that once the colonisation ended we've just internalised the 'divide and conquer' rule onto how we see ourselves and our view of other communities.

Yes, class issues have and will always be around. But it would be great if we could see the potential strength of a united immigrant voice, particularly in the post-September 11 age. Money and wealth might buy you half-acceptance into a wealthy, predominantly white world but all I know is no one's gonna check anyone's wallet before they do terrorist searches at airports.

Please everyone try to make it out to a rally today -- weather looks good too, at least here in NYC.

Regarding the Senate bill, it's important to note it now has been compromised to death -- and that from day one it has included pretty much all of the really bad enforcement provisions that already are in Sensenbrenner's bill. While people seem excited to get some comprehensive legislation through, I think that some progressive folks have forgotten that there will be a conference committee and negotiations with the House -- and that Frist has sold the Senate down the river in that process many times before (most recently in the REAL ID Act). At this point, the issue in the Senate is all about procedure -- and three cheers to Senator Reid for taking a stand.

No more compromising with ourselves! Let's just get out of this process for this year doing as little damage as possible and then move on to the election.

I say get in line buddy.

Turbanhead, I understand the sentiment, but the "earned legalization" provisions in various reform proposal still involving a pretty long line (16 years would actually be in the ballpark for many) and many hoops before anyone can obtain permanent residence. That's why it's not correct to characterize these proposals as "amnesty." Moreover, to point out once again, illegal immigration in this country is really a construct as much as anything else -- an artifact of a policy that sets legal immigration too low to correspond to the economic and sociological realities of migration. Would you direct the same kind of resentment at people speeding at 55 MPH on an interstate that had the speed limit of 25 MPH?

Since there has been some comments on GreenCard - let me mention that due to retrogression, GCs for Indian and Chinese nationals are being delayed by 3-4 years right now. This is irrespective of whether you are in academia or industry - the fast-tracking involves only the initial steps in the application - the final adjustment of status is where the bottleneck is.

This just to get green cards - which you typically start applying for after 1-2 years on H1B visa. During this period, you face an extremely uncertain future, are bound to the company (and the regional location) you are working for and are restricted in your foreign travels (you have to go your home-country to get your H1B visa renewed every year after your initial 6-year limit is up). During this period you are paying taxes as well as Social Security and Medicare, of which you don't see a single penny if your GC application is rejected for some reason. After the GC, it is a 6 year wait for citizenship. So that makes it ~ 11 years for most people, six of them spent rather uncertainly.

I may be selfish, but after going through so many hoops to come to the US, study and work here legally and then going through many more hoops (not to mention the monetary expenses for all the legal work) to obtain just a permanant residency, I am not too sympathetic to the 'guest worker' program for 'illegals'. My primary beef is against all these protests - since lost in all the shouting, is the sorry situation of the legal immigrants. That said, I do not agree with much of the house bill provisions calling for pnitive actions and deportation of all illegals.
More detailed discussion of my opinions here.

All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.

And of course, they'll grow up to be the loyal, productive US citizens the Govt is so trying to create.

Just because some indians are illegal means we all have to rally for legalizing the status of people who voluntarily broke the law ? Sorry, but I am a first generation immigrant and I did it legally. Perhaps immigration criteria needs to be altered and thats a valid debate, but there is simply no excuse for rewarding grown men and women who willingly violate US law. Period. Just because he wears a turban or has a shade of brown skin does not make me his partner in crime. South Asians are wise to not rally for illegals...it makes us look incredibly ungrateful to a country that has benefited us incredibly and has treated us quite fairly (at least for the past 2 generations)

BongoP'o'ndit (comment #80) makes some good points. I myself have some friends and relatives in the U.S. who immigrated recently and are struggling with incredible Green Card delays (six years since the approval, in some cases).

But I would argue that the current conservative crusade against illegal immigrants also harms and endangers people who have legal status. Particularly we should be thinking of people who are in the U.S. legally, but who encounter difficulties along the way, or who make mistakes in the process and fall out of status. This isn't just about a wall; it's also about what happens at Customs at JFK, and about the attitudes of people in many branches of government and social service to all immigrants.

I think a part of our unique platform as Desis should be a focus on the abject bureaucratic failure that is the USCIS: all the ways that it makes people's lives miserable.

naturally as Indians we are programmed to watch from the sidelines.

But I would argue that the current conservative crusade against illegal immigrants also harms and endangers people who have legal status. Particularly we should be thinking of people who are in the U.S. legally, but who encounter difficulties along the way, or who make mistakes in the process and fall out of status. This isn't just about a wall; it's also about what happens at Customs at JFK, and about the attitudes of people in many branches of government and social service to all immigrants.

Amardeep has shown a very important point in the above. The general anti-immigrant climate affects everyone. The same way, in the South-Asian v/s Indian debate one of the central argument is that for a third party there is no difference between different SAs .. the same way a generally anti-immigrant (legal or illegal) climate would make life difficult for legals as for a "third party" often time there is no "difference".

Kingsley wrote:

"I do think the current immigration law is broken. If there really is a need for cheap foreign labor, create a cheap foreign labor visa and let anyone apply for it. Sneaking it in as amnesty for illigals, smacks of geographic discrimination at the very least and xenophobia at worst."

This is another KEY issue. There is no way for unskilled people to get to the US. So the talk of get in "line" is unfair. Geographic discrimination is at the CORE of american immigration policy. Thats what Desi Pioneers like Bhagat S. Thind tried via a supreme court case to get citizenship.

tashie, it must be the clean nz air or something, or perhaps the LOTResque scenescape, or maybe even th efunny funny accent, but i not only couldnt agree with you more, THANK god there are people out there who open their eyes long enough to see the incredible injustice we ourselves do to our own kin. people at home treat the vast majority of the citizenry far worse then the colonist ever did. the colonist came to steal, oppress, enjoy the fr