Indo-Canadians in Vancouver don't like what's going on either

But there's also a mythology around the whole scene....its just really easy to boil this down to its sexy angles.....young toughs, a martial culture gone bad....and then you have all the hoo-haa around Jattness.

Its a bad situation, not made better by people on all sides who too often go for the easy answer. Ironically people on both sides of the issue say...."My culture made me/them do it"

be careful about generalizing this as an Indo-Canadian phenomenon. It seems localized to Vancouver. If you did a poll in Toronto asking what ethnic group was associated with crime, I suspect Indo-Canadians would rank somewhere between Lithuanians and Martians.

be careful about generalizing this as an Indo-Canadian phenomenon.

I dare you to say Indo-Vancouverian 3 times really fast.

>>>> I dare you to say Indo-Vancouverian 3 times really fast.

Try 'Kacha Paapar, Pukka Paapar' really fast.

Being Canadian myself, not residing in Vancouver, I'd have to say the degree of assimilation outside of Vancouver is pretty high. My experience with other browns is pretty much as you described about your own experience, Abhi. I have visited Vancouver, though, and it does seem that they have specifically Indian neighbourhoods - you don't even have to speak English to get around in certain parts! I could be wrong, but I haven't noticed this in Toronto. The geography of the two cities are very different, perhaps affecting the likelihood of "segregation".

Metric ang,
What are your thoughts on Edmonton? I had the impression that it was sort of part way between the lack of assimilation in Vancouver and higher degree of assimilation in Toronto.

Try this

In the summer of 1984, Ujjal Dosanjh, a young Sikh lawyer, looked on in horror as Sikh extremists rioted in the streets of Vancouver. He was appalled at what was happening to his city, his country, and even more appalled that nobody in government seemed to care. ''I'm surprised that these goons are getting through to Canada without any difficulty,'' he told a television interviewer at the time. ''Now what responsibility does the Canadian government take for actually destroying the fabric of my community?'' Less than a year later, Sikh terrorists blew up Air-India Flight 182.

Being Canadian myself, not residing in Vancouver, I'd have to say the degree of assimilation outside of Vancouver is pretty high. My experience with other browns is pretty much as you described about your own experience, Abhi. I have visited Vancouver, though, and it does seem that they have specifically Indian neighbourhoods - you don't even have to speak English to get around in certain parts! I could be wrong, but I haven't noticed this in Toronto.

I was raised in Vancouver, and but also lived in Toronto as an adult. Both have their Indian/desi/punjabi neighbourhoods. For Vancouver, it's south Vancouver and Surrey, mostly. In Toronto, it's Brampton and Mississauga.

This poll only reinforces the belief I had since I was a kid in Vancouver. The media in Vancouver - especially the two main newspapers - were always quick to emphasize the negative stories about Indo-Canadians, Punjabis, or Sikhs. More often than not, such stories end up on the front page. Come Baisakhi or another story that might put the brown in a bright light, and the story was buried on page B15.

There's a definite difference between the Punjabis in Vancouver and those in Toronto. The Punjabis in Vancouver are more based on the rural/labourer class from India, whereas those in Toronto came more from the business class. Granted, Vancouver's Sikh community does have its problems, there's no denying that, and it's been a problem for a long time.

The other thing to note is that while one can use the term assimilation with respect to Indians in Toronto, I may more accurately label it as integration.

Aaaargh, wish I could put my two cents in here, but I have to run. Great discussion, keep it going!

I'm a Bengali raised in Calgary - when my parents arrived there were perhaps 40-50 Bengali families in Calgary. While the numbers dictated the need for integration, the larger community (even in Calgary) was never hostile (though it was often ignorant). It was the 1970s and most of the Indian immigrants were educated, articulate and felt a certain security. The Vancouver Punjabi community, on the other hand, has experienced a long history of virulent racism, rejection, hardship and privation. They were the first Indian immigrants to arrive, as very second-class British subjects, in a very British Canada. We know other peoples still suffer the psychological consequences of disenfranchisement - I wonder if this isn't a partial explanation of the Vancouver desi situation...

I wonder if this isn't a partial explanation of the Vancouver desi situation...

Maybe - but gangsterism amongst young men cannot be excused by that, any more than slavery can be blamed for gangsterism amongst blacks in America.

Abhi wrote
The short answer I believe (readers can feel free to offer their own theories) lies in first seeing that Canada seems to be a hybrid between the degree of assimilation we see in England (very little) vs. the U.S. (very much).

Bullshit. US desis would be lucky, creaming their pants, if they could have the prominence that we have in Canada. Politicians like Ujjal Dosanjh, Ruby Dhalla, Navdeep Bains, Harinder Takher or even Moe Sihota (to restrict myself to Punjabis). Media personalities like Ian Hanomansigh or Raj Ahluwalia. Writers like Rohinton Mistry, MG Vassanji, or Neil Bissoondath. CEOs like Firoz Rasul, Nadir Mohamed or Herb Doman. Athletes like -- well, I only got Emanuel Sandhu -- I'm not a sports fan. Desis of all religions and origins are well integrated at high levels of Canadian society. Well educated, rich, upwardly mobile and important.

What we don't have is the same level of assimilation, which is not because US desis are more willing to give up their culture and traditions. It's becuase we are more numerous. A greater presence means its easier to stay within community and "stick to your own".

(However, I can point you to a paper that shows that, outside Vancouver, neighbourhood segregation os not increasing becuase of "white flight" so much as becuase of greater numbers.)

All that said, there are issues in Vancouver and in Abbotsford. Dharma Queen points out that the history of west coast desis is different. Komagata Maru and all that -- that shapes a community. I've never lived on the west coast, and I'm not Punjabi, so I'll defer to other on that one.

I have to take issue with what Abhi says about the level of assimilation of desis in the UK. Obviously recent events with the individuals of Pakistani descent with the London bombings are a serious problem. But despite this the level of integration and achievment in British society across the whole of the community of various religious backgrounds is strong. I don't need to make a list of names or situations, but I don't think it helps to get into a pissing match about which country, UK, Canada or USA has the 'best' desis. Obviously things vary within communities, and to tar whole experiences and peoples with one brush is just self defeating. If things are bad amongst gangster youth in Vancouver, it doesnt help to point the finger and say that the whole of Canada is some kind of half-way house between England and America (I mean seriously Abhi, have you ever lived in the UK?)

Ikram says:

It's becuase we are more numerous.

Really? What is the Indian population on Canada? I know in the U.S. it will be coming up on 3 million by the end of the decade.
Also I have always had the impression, perhaps false, that desi politicians in Canada primarily go after desi votes. Is this not true? I am contrasting this with a say, Bobby Jindal.

Ikram

The history of racism Vancouver Punjabis might have faced may have something to do with it, but only a little. There has to be community initiatives to start dealing with the gang culture and drug dealing there - that means helping them, rather than hating on them.

In the U.S. it has been my experience while growing up that if you, for example, tell an Indian friend that you are headed to an all-Indian party on a Friday night, you are frowned upon a bit. This becomes even truer past the age of about 25. We have grown up lightly pressured by our own friends, of the same ethnic/cultural background as ourselves, to assimilate to a degree and not get caught up in brown on brown drama. The presence of wannabe thugs at your party is guaranteed to be a turn-off to all the South Asian friends I have ever hung out with at least.

Naturally, when one associates predominantly brown events with drama or wannabe thugs, it could be viewed as negative. Notice that no one feels that "light pressure" when attending a high-quality cultural event like 7-11 or even, for that more, a low quality cultural event like the cr*p the IAAC throws together. Or when desi yuppies get together for martinis (or whatever desi yuppies do), no one feels like they are not "assimilating", just because the crowd is all brown.

This isn't about assimilations. Its about class. The desi upper and upper middle classes in this country want very little to do with their "thuggish", "unassimilated" brethren, even when they themselves choose not to assimilate.

but I don't think it helps to get into a pissing match about which country, UK, Canada or USA has the 'best' desis.

I'm not sure why you see it like that. In the U.S. we'd kill to see brown faces on popular T.V. shows, sports, etc. That's the norm in England. This isn't a pissing contest between which is better. The point I was addressing is why the difference. That is what the commenter in the other thread asked. England without a doubt has ethnic desi ghettos that have led to problems. Canada has some (mostly in the Vancouver area). The U.S. doesn't have any yet, although a case could be made for parts of New Jersey I would think. That gradation I was pointing is what you see as a "half-way house?"

(I mean seriously Abhi, have you ever lived in the UK?)

I have spent quite a bit of time there. A good portion of my family lives in Harrow.

The desi upper and upper middle classes in this country want very little to do with their "thuggish", "unassimilated" brethren, even when they themselves choose not to assimilate.

Actually in my experience the desi "upper and middle classes" are the ones that are often the most "thuggish."

Abhi

I think you probably know why there is a difference - the history and migratory demographics for the UK and USA are different, and then in each situation a number of variables come together to create a situation like you see in Vancouver and other places. I think you probably understand that. And I don't mean about seeing brown faces on TV, movies, everywhere in the UK - you characterise the UK as having 'very little' assimilation - when logic will tell you that in order to have the economic, cultural and social profile that Indians have in the UK, it would have to be characterised as having more than the 'very little' assimilation that you assert as the median level representing us.

Your model is too broad brushed. And I'm sorry, but it does reek of a pissing match a little.

I disagree strongly with the statement in the post that Indians in Canada are less assimilated than those in the US. The insularity and conservatism of a number of the American-born desi commenters on this post startles me from time to time. I've been to one all-Indian party in my life, took three white friends there, and was frankly thrilled because it was all-Indian. Hell - I've never been able to find enough Indian friends around to NOT be assimilated, and I've lived in TO, Montreal, Moncton, Calgary, Ottawa.

This thread is going to spin out of control into a Canadian Desi versus USA Desi versus British Desi finger pointing session. That would be sad. Let's just accept that there are problems in different places with different communities and treat it as one diaspora, OK? Representing the totality of desi experience for entire nations in broad brush strokes is not subtle enough, not withstanding identifiable factors in the nuances of desi life in all three countries. I would rather discuss what is being done to help concerened people in Canada and Vancouver to break the cycle of gang violence in their city rather than make the issue into one of a kind of referendum and judgment call on the whole Canadian desi community in all its achievment and complexity. That is why Ikram and Dharma Queen have objected to the representation whilst allowing for the fact that there is a problem.

One thing that disturbs me about the way Canadian authorities handle problems in the BC desi community is their indifference when only 'insiders' are involved. Hence the RCMP has yet to prosecute the family members of Jassi Singh for her honour killing, despite substantial evidence (as shown on an episode of the Fifth Estate) against them. Jassi was killed, together with her 'unsuitable' husband, in India - and listening to the RCMP talk about the case, one would think it was an entirely Indian affair. But Jassi was Canadian.

Alright - this is what my Canadian cuz told what he thinks about this whole situation - that a culture of gansgterism and easy money has taken root amongst SOME Punjabis in BC. He says that the parents generation are in complete denial and are not doing enough to address the issues, and that they are too stuck in their authoritarian attitudes to deal with the crisis. The easy money and get fast quick returns of drug dealing is corrupting a whole generation, and it is basically a mafia situation, comparable to that of other ethnic minority experience with crime in immigrant and post-immigrant communities throughout history. Mafia leaders corrupt youth by involving them in the process.

If this assimilation thing worked so well then why are so many of us born and brought up US desis posting on a website specifically for desi issues? Shouldn't we be posting on GOUSA.com or something?

I remember one lightning trip I made to London around '99 or so. I was only there for two days (it was the tail-end of a Europe trip) and I was hanging out with the Southall-based relatives of a friend. I didn't go to central London on that trip, hung out in Southall and its environs. For virtually the entire two days, I saw only Indians (specifically Punjabis). Some Somalis as well. When I looked down from the 2nd floor, there was a keshdhari Sikh in every backyard I could see. I even went to a wedding reception in a neighboring town, and again, on the streets and in the frontyards of that town, all I saw was Indians. The broadways (main streets) of both towns had only Indian shops. The only white people I saw were at the airport. I don't think people in the States have a clue how high a concentration of desis lives in that area of west London. Little kids there speak Punjabi, and don't really switch over to English until they start going to school. UK bhangra music was everywhere. I can't think of any other immigrant group that has taken its traditional music, adapted it to its new environment, and created such a thriving home-grown, locally-produced music scene, which even 2nd and 3rd gen people love so much (and later export it back to the country of origin!) But I digress. Is this degree of ghettoization a good thing? I though it was beautiful. Would I want to live there? Probably not. (Unless I had one of those vanilla-skinned, green-eyed beauties Jai mentioned (and I can vouch they exist) as a girlfriend).

Amitabh, it does sound beautiful. I wouldn't want to live there either, though, especially after reading this interview with Naveen Andrews, in which he said living in the UK as a desi was 'bloody awful'. He said he lives in LA now and feels 'possibility' there, whereas he felt trapped in a small-minded class system in the UK. Presumably somewhere near the bottom.

Naveen Andrew's was a junkie and an alcoholic who couldnt get work in the UK - that's why he talks about a class system that keeps people down - when in reality Britain has a high degree of social mobility - that is why there are so many stories of South Asians rising up for nothing to appear in lists like this.

Southall is changing a lot. Indians are moving out as they become more prosperous and Somalians, Eastern Europeans are moving in.

They were the first Indian immigrants to arrive, as very second-class British subjects, in a very British Canada. We know other peoples still suffer the psychological consequences of disenfranchisement - I wonder if this isn't a partial explanation of the Vancouver desi situation...

Don't see why you consider the facts of lawyer Dosanjh getting brained and publisher Hayer getting attacked (wasn't he finally assassinated?)as signs of progress in the BC community. The community reaction to the honour killings of Jassi Singh and Amandeep Atwal was pretty chilling as well, no one spoke up for the girls but lots of people spoke up for the families.

america the best!!! canadians are faux-americans, i mean, is "hey," the best you can do for an accent.

That's 'eh', Razib, not 'hey'.

Nous sommes mal compris par nos voisins du Sud.

Don't see why you consider the facts of lawyer Dosanjh getting brained and publisher Hayer getting attacked (wasn't he finally assassinated?)as signs of progress in the BC community. The community reaction to the honour killings of Jassi Singh and Amandeep Atwal was pretty chilling as well, no one spoke up for the girls but lots of people spoke up for the families.

That's 'eh', Razib, not 'hey'.

whatever. are you frozen yet?

well razib, you can't wash your hands off like that. canada is the 52nd state after all, just after UK :).

on a lighter note, i think desis---at least the guys---can use a little bit of "bad boy" image. why should just the sissy-lion italians have that swagger? oh and if you had an accent like mine, that would sound "sicilian". dont come complaining if you don't.

Razib,

Mais oui, mon igloo is very cold, mon parka is made in la Chine, and mes voisins du sud sont des sots qui volent mon huile, mes arbres, mon boeuf, mes idees, mes ecrivains, mes chanteurs, mes acteurs, mes docteurs, mes...assez. Hey.

Well, no, Razib, "eh" is the best we can do. And don't forget 'oot' and 'aboot'. Tant pis ;)

More seriously though, Dhaavak, I have to agree with Dharma Queen. I don't see how those examples you cite are examples of progressive thinking. I am glad that folks spoke up, and I understand why you think that's positive, and it is, but I think the fact that these fights are even present in the community is frustrating and regressive.

And back to Abhi's post: the situation of Indo-Canadians in Vancouver is pretty unique. The confluence of circumstances there -- a really old community, ghettoized, and yes, perhaps even martial culture, gives rise to a real dynamism of cultural influence, but attendant problems too. An old post by Brownfrown nicely details some of these circumstances.

Nevertheless, there are South Asians in the rest of Canada and the perspective on those populations really depends on where you are. In my admittedly limited experience, I have seen enormous differences in the way culture and the rate of acculturation interact in South Asian populations in Canada, the US and the UK. I do think there is something to the multiculturalism model in Canada that allows immigrant communities to flourish, and also in some ways really separate out from from the mainstream. And there is no doubt that it is a numbers game. Tamils in the US are spread out all across the States. Tamils in the UK are in Tooting, but also spread out aways. The majority of the diaspora of Sri Lankan Tamils are in Canada, and in Scarborough in particular. That concentration means you can shop in Tamil, buy Tamil food, pray in Tamil (whether Christian or Hindu), and hang out only with other Tamils, particularly if you own a business that caters to your population. That allows people to develop and explore their entrepreneurial ambitions and succeed, even when language might otherwise be a barrier. And then you also see, like Punjabis in Vancouver, the underbelly of the community as well. So it's possible that it is as simple as: with a larger population will come larger problems.

What's it like in Plainsboro, New Jersey?

This thread is going to spin out of control into a Canadian Desi versus USA Desi versus British Desi finger pointing session.

I'm sorry but I don't see a pissing match here. The difference between American desis and Canadian desis is almost inconsequential compared to the difference between these two and British desis. I went to college with Canadian desis and they were indistinguishable from the rest of us. Still, in some aspects I think there are differences particularly with Vancouver desis (thus the title of the post) that bear examination. As you guessed I am well aware of some of the historical factors in play but I'd much rather hear it straight from the mouths of Canadians. I don't think looking at those differences constitutes a pissing match. I've already learned something about my neighbors to the north reading these comments.

Damned Chinese triads and yakuza ruining Vancouver for the rest of us ...

And then you also see, like Punjabis in Vancouver, the underbelly of the community as well.

you make it sound like if you lift a rock in Vancouver you're see all manner of insects coming out from underneath!

Connecting the lack of assimilation in Canada with the crime problem in Vancouver is a general and a problematic statement. Are we saying that Indians by nature are more violent and prone to crime and if unassimilated in the local Canadian population will revert back to their old habits.

you make it sound like if you lift a rock in Vancouver you're see all manner of insects coming out from underneath!

No, no, no, that's not what I meant at all! Just that as there are success stories, there are problems in every community, particularly those with larger populations (like in Vancouver and Toronto). Both.

Are we saying that Indians by nature are more violent and prone to crime and if unassimilated in the local Canadian population will revert back to their old habits.

What??? Ummm. No.

ahh yes... thanks for pulling out brownfrown's old post nux2 - ye olde dipshit discussion - i dont agree with it largely because there are other communities that have faced far worse racism for much longer and not crumbled.

my point has not come through. i am not much for linear thinking but will try.

it is a good thing that immigrants can succeed without losing their identity or the social problems from the old country. in some cases the problems have got magnified. as a system the society has to find ways to correct the problem. a resolution can be the paternalistic approach from the government which enforces change - but that is unnatural to the canadian way of life - the superior alternative is that the community finds a way to correct itself, the path that the punjabi community chose in the west.

i hope my point is coming through. there are gut churning stories every other dayfarah khan, cecilia zhang, Jeffrey - in each case, we try to ask questions why did this happen? There must be a reason, because noone can commit crime in as wanton fashion as it appears. it isnt human, or is it?

my rationalization is that a society is a complex mechanism with multiple interactions among all participants - and we can not even begin to explain it all through line of sight rationalization. Shit will happen because shit is part of the system. so - to take your poiint " these fights are even present in the community is frustrating and regressive" - well, I wouldnt question your frustration, but will question your question on the presence.

Observer,
You have an interesting point. Why does the post segue from a discussion on Indo-Canadian gangsters to whether Indo-Canadians are as assimilated as Indo-Americans? The implication, at least, is that the less assimilation there is, the more thuggishness there will be. I don't know if this is untrue, as more assimilation generally means more opportunities, more optimism about one's educational and economic future etc.

The implication, at least, is that the less assimilation there is, the more thuggishness there will be. I don't know if this is untrue, as more assimilation generally means more opportunities, more optimism about one's educational and economic future etc.

Dubious assumption. Mexican Americans do worse on standardized tests the more generations they've been in the US, i.e. the more integrated (presumably) they are. These Vancouver gangsters are rarely FOBs, they're CBCDs, by definition more Canadian than their law abiding FOB brethren.

I am contrasting this with a say, Bobby Jindal.

Abhi,

Are you using Bobby Jindal as an epitome of Indian-Americans assimilating in USA?

I have to agree with you that Indian-American politicians in USA are not targetting desi vote, just because it is dispersed and too white collar to be rallied, and also there are no ghettos (as you said).

Bobby Jindal is a special case. In South Louisiana (or entire Louisiana), his pull is his political philosophy, broadly speaking religious beliefs, and also, thinly veiled anti-minority stance (the ones who are economically disadvantaged). In a wedding, I once chatted with dozens of Louisiana folks, almost all of them I met have voted for him in past, and mark my words - none of them even knew his ethnicity or even cared about it. His message is solely targetted to a blue collar white person.

No, no, no, that's not what I meant at all! Just that as there are success stories, there are problems in every community, particularly those with larger populations (like in Vancouver and Toronto). Both.

Nux, don't worry i wasn't being harsh. your points are well taken. however i wonder if we're scapegoating a community for the problems within it e.g. i don't think the wider Indo-Canadian community in Vancouver is not the problem

Abhi,

I lived in Edmonton for a while, and it is a bit of a hybrid between what I've experienced in Vancouver and Toronto, yet closer to Toronto on the continuum. There's a specific area which is by and large populated by first generation South Asians. From what I last recall, it was a friendly community. However, even though it was safe and clean, with good mid-income housing, the real estate was hard to sell to anyone other than south asian and a few other minorities. As a result, those South Asians that financially prospered, moved out of these neighbourhoods into more mixed ethnicity neighbourhoods. South Asian gangs? Not really, from what I recall. There were a few teenage gangs like "Brown Nation", but I remember talking with a friend about how one of their members just ended up going to med school like everyone else.... Not to make light of gang membership or violence or anything.

Whoever made the point about the media in B.C. - good point. I've noticed alot of outlandish "Sun" type stories coming from the area. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem in the Vancouver community, but I do think that some of these publications are very adept at latching onto anything less than positive.

Now, concentrating on the issue, what are the causes of 2nd genners, regardless of their ethnic background, turning to gang membership? I don't buy the "their parents have thug, regressive, farming community backgrounds" argument that I am detecting - there seems to be some intra-south asian racism or superiority complexes in such sentiments. Some mention racism, ghettoization..... is there anything else? Do you guys restrictive upbringings have anything to do it? Concepts of masculinity within certain cultures? The value of boys? Geography? Perhaps all of these brewed up together?

Dhavaak, you make a good point about the word integration vs. assimilation. I too feel that semantics are important. I always appreciate the info about the connotation behind certain terms whether it be "oreo" or in this case, assimilation. The word 'assimilation' may be perceived as being related to model minorities. I do feel while little communities can lend to great multi-cultural development, it's sometimes sad that people outside the dominant culture of a neighbourhood basically fear moving to certain neighbourhoods. I don't know if you'd call this subtle racism or what... but it can sometimes devalue the real estate of these neighbourhoods. Even when they're clean, safe, with good schools - very interesting. This seems like such a transparent phenemonen that someone must have studied and written about it... those of you with liberal arts backgrounds, educate me!

------------------

(Dhavaak - yes, we have a revolving restaurant - lol - any reason for your inquiry?)

the situation of Indo-Canadians in Vancouver is pretty unique. The confluence of circumstances there -- a really old community, ghettoized, and yes, perhaps even martial culture, gives rise to a real dynamism of cultural influence, but attendant problems too

Nux,

I don't think the problems in the Indo-Canadian community are due to old processes. The issue of Indo-Canadian crime in BC is a newer issue, I'd say it was only in the 90's when these things started popping up. Indo-Canadians were not always ghettoized either.

I agree that there's a cultural dynamism but I doubt it's connected to any deeper or a longer lasting cultural memory. Its much newer than that and I don't know how much its got to do with a broader past.

A lot of these are just really out of line teenage boys who need to be put into line. I think some of them are unaware of consequences. Their parents were for the most part people who did not get on the wrong side of the law and worked hard and the goal was always for their kids to be respectful of laws and get educations. It just all went wrong with part of the younger generation who've gone off the rails. They'll learn when enough of them get to the point of being once bitten twice shy. Its kind of sad in a way, these are not kids who grew up in hopeless surroundings, and I do not feel discrimination is the root cause of their feelings. There's something else going on here where these kids are have become unmoored to the consequences of their actions. Even that being said, there's quite a lot of Indo-Van kids who are great kids. I think they are getting lost in the mix when we talk about these problems.

For every Van City Pun Gansta there's probably three nice kids who want to do the right thing

I've noticed alot of outlandish "Sun" type stories coming from the area.

This was the Sun's stock in trade and I think that has had a part to play in this whole phenomenon

be careful about generalizing this as an Indo-Canadian phenomenon. It seems localized to Vancouver. If you did a poll in Toronto asking what ethnic group was associated with crime, I suspect Indo-Canadians would rank somewhere between Lithuanians and Martians.

ramster's right.

He says that the parents generation are in complete denial and are not doing enough to address the issues, and that they are too stuck in their authoritarian attitudes to deal with the crisis.

totally. this is almost the whole problem right here. too bad now the cow's out of the barn

I have another question for the Canadians on this thread. I have always had the impression that the divorce rate among South Asians is higher in Canada than in the U.S., especially in Western Canada. Is there any truth to this or is this a false impression? Are there more "broken homes" in the Vancouver area that might contribute to this?

I have always had the impression that the divorce rate among South Asians is higher in Canada than in the U.S., especially in Western Canada.

where did you get that impression? -- not that i'm canadian)

where did you get that impression? -- not that i'm canadian)

Friends, aquaintances, second-hand, all circumstantial but consistent. I thought I'd just ask the Canadians.

I thought I'd just ask the Canadians

sounds like a good idea :-)

Dhavaak - yes, we have a revolving restaurant - lol - any reason for your inquiry?

I can't speak for Western Canada but not as much with the first generation on the East side. Second generation,with tamils, the odds are quite low- the taboo is pretty strongly present and carried on for the most part.

I can't say much for the Punjabi second generation though- any other Canadian out here who has an idea?

From my experience, limited one mind you, we've known of more 'broken' homes south of the border than here. Also, the least likely divorces in my extended family/large brown family friends circle, are those between browns and whites.

Overall, I'd say Abhi that that has been a myth from my experience.

From Abhi's original post, taken from the Sun newspaper "When a 29-year-old Surrey man exchanged insults with four young Indo-Canadian men at Garry T’s pub at 72".

Right there we can see a potential bias in the reporting of that paper. A Surrey man vs. four Indo-Canadian men? Weren't they ALL Surrey men?

Quality of second gen directly mirrors their parents. The Khalistani types who moved to Canada en masse in 80s and 90s with fake asylum claims were primarily nothing but thugs in their Punjabi pinds who found a new heaven in Canada.

So now their children are in teens and what can we expect of these guys whose parents were terr0rists? Same with desis in Brit. Unlike US where due to strict immigration rules only cream migrated and even the non-skilled cabbies etc are inspired to follow their educated lot and make sure that their children become educated. But with Khalistani folks there is no drive no nothing - why bother when you can milk Canadian tax payers? So these guys continue their pind habits in Canada. Same thing applies directly to Tamil immigrants as well - just see how the community has gained noterity in the streets of Toronto - after all if your dad was some LTTE thug how can you expect the kid to be different?

"oh nothing... i might have a biz trip over and someone suggested i check that out just for kicks - i hope we're still on for your trip to the big smoke - lingus was kind enough to send out an invite for a little soiree the other day... this photo is not she, but a good time was had by all."

LOL - okay - I can suggest better places, for food anyways. Next time you post, link to your blog so I can send you my email addie and read your stories with hyphens galore. Enough with hijacking this thread! ;-)

Re: divorce rates in Canada..... Have not observed a high rate, or anything that stands out as alarming. But this does incite inspection of other family issues: I recall some domestic violence issues being discussed amongst my mom and her friends. I don't think this was confined to the punjabi community.... it was sadly far to prevalent in many South Asian communities. Girlfriends would come over for chai with bruises hidden on their arms. Ugh... while a supportive bunch of woman, and it was great to talk about it, they felt very powerless to do anything about it. That can't be good for the women or their kids who have to witness such violence. So, while the parents may be hard-working, there are alot of hidden family dynamics that adversely affect their kids. Again, not confined to South Asian households - there is definitely more at play here than this. I suspect some family issues as well as external factors such as history, discrimination, isolation as well. It's not going to be simple to pinpoint any one thing, but I'm glad to hear that the Vancouverites are starting to open up to the discussion.

Getting into a fight with a stranger is never a good idea, but it can be fatal now that guns are becoming an increasingly common fashion accessory for some young men.

Mexican Americans do worse on standardized tests the more generations they've been in the US

be a little cautious of these numbers. it has been recently pointed out that "4th generation mexican americans" are a tiny and peculiar class (probably hispanos from new mexico for example). also, i suspect that assimilated individuals of part mexican ancestry re-classify as non-hispanic white a lot of the time, so those "left behind" with mexican identities tend to be the "losers" to speak (i had a friend whose father was mexican american and mother non-hispanic, and his father had succeeded as a CPA and neither of the kids had a latino identity. his cousins still lived in the "barrio").

also, people, check out statistics canada. lots of interesting data in there (though perhaps some of you find it too "boring" :)

I lived in the UK (both in London, Birmingham and the North of England) for 29 years before moving to Vancouver 2.5 years ago. I am a Punjabi Sikh.

There is a difference between the Sikh communities in Vancouver and London. (I won't talk about Sikhs in Birmingham and northern english towns).

I would say there are more young Sikhs in London who are upwardly mobile---working their way up the career ladder---whether it be in investment banking, accountancy, law, medicine or teaching.

In Vancouver, there are less opportunities in the financial sector. You can also make good money here doing things like driving trucks and building houses! As a result you find less Sikhs here in the professions and more of them doing working-class jobs.

Another major industry here is hashish (dope, marijuana). It's much easier to make money selling drugs here than it is in the UK. In Vancouver, the hemp plant grows well and the price of the drug is much higher in the US and the cost of transporting the stuff over the border is very low (it takes 40 mins to get to the border from Vancouver of u r slow). So alot of Vancouver people make money sellings drugs to the Americans. And it's not just Sikhs. Every community has members in this 'business'. I don't think there are too many people growing hemp in the UK for export to other countries---the stuff does not grow so well and transport costs are much higher. In the UK it's not such a great business to be in.

So, it has very little to do with culture. Take a place where professional opportunities aren't that great, and where it's easy to make money smuggling drugs. Guess what happens? Surprise, surprise, you get less investment bankers and more gangsters.

As I think Bill Clinton once said---it's the economy stupid ;).

"This poll only reinforces the belief I had since I was a kid in Vancouver. The media in Vancouver - especially the two main newspapers - were always quick to emphasize the negative stories about Indo-Canadians, Punjabis, or Sikhs. More often than not, such stories end up on the front page. Come Baisakhi or another story that might put the brown in a bright light, and the story was buried on page B15."

Untrue. Vancouver/Canadian media plays up multiculturalism almost too much (see Neil Bisoondath's 'Cult of Multiculturalism' for more on that, not that i completely agree with it) or at least a lot so Chinese New Year's and the like get their share of front page or major spotlight for sure.

"So, it has very little to do with culture. Take a place where professional opportunities aren't that great, and where it's easy to make money smuggling drugs. Guess what happens?"

Agree/disagree. The weed culture and industry in Vancouver is big, as most know. Its funny though, i tell this to newcomers all the time (im a Vancouverite) that we're really strict on booze but easy on weed.

A good comparison would be between the Tamil community in Toronto and London, I think (the Tigers were just officially classified by our gov as a terrorist group, btw:http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/04/10/tamils-terror-designation.html) Its obvious who's got their neck up more in the bad stuff, ya?

I had a friend come live in Vancouver from San Diego (filipina, i'm a nipper) and hanging out in the (yellow) asian scene here, she said she had never seen so many young heads driving the bimmers and blinging it out. I had friends in highschool or just out of it making large dollars off the bat. It is very available as an opportunity here in Vancouver. Right now, the violence is worse (more guns, etc) but younger too (though Im sure there is a comparable trend in North American in general). But there are def more kids packin around these days.

It seems like the (east) Asian gang thing in Vancouver has really simmered over the last decade. Back in the late 80s/early 90s it was more the Chinese and Vietnamese gangers that made more the headlines but today is the browd dudes. And aside from the media spotlight, it IS a problem and issue here. There have been tons of shootings and busts and shit going on in that scene. Of course, the media is there to let everyone know about it but it cannot be denied that it is going on and is a hotter point that normal.

The Vietnamese, dont worry though, are still making the news alot with the (weed) grow-ops.

The one thing that seems shady with the media though is that unless the white boys in crime are making headlines are Hells Angels (which is just as big if not a bigger media hot issue than the bad brown people), they are never written up in the news as "an Anglo-Canadian male" or "white Canadian," obviously.

But if the perpetrators are of "color," as if its not obvious enough from the name, it is commonly added that he/she is an, yeah, Indo-Canadian or whatever. I actually challenged a writer from the Province (1 of the 2 main newspapers in Vancouver) about the fact that a friend of a shot (brown) victim had his ethnicity also mentioned though (he was Egyptian). I suggested to the writer that if she just throwing the war on terror thing on top for good measure. She denied it but agreed that the subject of mentioning the ethnicity of a individual in a crime should be discussed.

But as far as reps/images go, maybe the media effects the older peoples more but "on the street" or with the younger crowd, the rep of unruliness is well earned for the many crews of big, loud, tight shirted, Crown Royal downin (my drink of choice too ;p) dudes out and about on the town.

Its even hit Whistler, the ski resort 2 hours north of Vancouver. Lots of urbanites from the city go up to party in Whistler (its like our weekend in Vegas place) and all but the brown heads have been bringing the flyin fists and not to mention guns up there, which is pretty unheard of.

Ask any bouncers up there if they've had to deal with any of that. The girl friends are commonly sneekin the pieces in da club aswell.

But when it comes to the brothels, human trafficing and sex slavery, its still us yellow folk synonomous for that.
Bad driving: us, fake injury claims off bad driving: you guys. ;p

"I don't think the problems in the Indo-Canadian community are due to old processes. The issue of Indo-Canadian crime in BC is a newer issue, I'd say it was only in the 90's when these things started popping up. Indo-Canadians were not always ghettoized either.

I agree that there's a cultural dynamism but I doubt it's connected to any deeper or a longer lasting cultural memory. Its much newer than that and I don't know how much its got to do with a broader past.

A lot of these are just really out of line teenage boys who need to be put into line. I think some of them are unaware of consequences. Their parents were for the most part people who did not get on the wrong side of the law and worked hard and the goal was always for their kids to be respectful of laws and get educations."

The thing about the teenage kids and the early 20s crowd is true (and the same within the east asian gang scene here). Its always the young heads shooting up the clubs or packin to it or doing all the really public stupid shit. The older, more veteran gangers usu. are more about the "business" and stray from the petty shit (more). The young ones are the ones you gotta watch out for, the ones who are out to make their reps.

But while the parents not being from the wrong side of the law is most likely true, all the trouble makers making the news usu. still live with their parents.

"I have another question for the Canadians on this thread. I have always had the impression that the divorce rate among South Asians is higher in Canada than in the U.S., especially in Western Canada. Is there any truth to this or is this a false impression? Are there more "broken homes" in the Vancouver area that might contribute to this?"

Its my impression that Asian marriages (brown and yellow) are the least likely to divorice, which I'm assuming is similar in Canada and the States, because its looked down upon more in Asian culture as opposed to the quick draw MacGraw, divorcing white folk.

"According to the Vancouver Sun, Nearly two-thirds of respondents to an Ipsos Reid poll believe some ethnic groups are more responsible for crime than others, and they put Indo-Canadian and Asians at the top of their lists.

Of those in the poll who held ethnic groups most responsible, 56 per cent specifically identified “Indian/East Indian” and 45 per cent listed “Indian/East Indian” the newspaper reported March 16.

By comparison, five per cent of the same group singled out “Caucasian/white” and only one per cent were worried about “Afro-American/Black,” “Middle Eastern/Arabs/Muslims” and “Italians.”"

You also have to keep in mind that “Indian/East Indian” and “Asian/Oriental"s are the 2 biggest ethnic groups here in Vancouver. Most Vancouverites dont fear the brothas and vatos because there are very little here.

"According to the Vancouver Sun, Nearly two-thirds of respondents to an Ipsos Reid poll believe some ethnic groups are more responsible for crime than others, and they put Indo-Canadian and Asians at the top of their lists.

Of those in the poll who held ethnic groups most responsible, 56 per cent specifically identified “Indian/East Indian” and 45 per cent listed “Indian/East Indian” the newspaper reported March 16.

By comparison, five per cent of the same group singled out “Caucasian/white” and only one per cent were worried about “Afro-American/Black,” “Middle Eastern/Arabs/Muslims” and “Italians.”"

You also have to keep in mind that “Indian/East Indian” and “Asian/Oriental"s are the 2 biggest ethnic groups here in Vancouver. Most Vancouverites dont fear the brothas and vatos because there are very little here.

There is a sizable Persian community here though and there have been a couple media episodes surrounding some shoot-ups within that.

"Quality of second gen directly mirrors their parents. The Khalistani types who moved to Canada en masse in 80s and 90s with fake asylum claims were primarily nothing but thugs in their Punjabi pinds who found a new heaven in Canada.

So now their children are in teens and what can we expect of these guys whose parents were terr0rists? Same with desis in Brit. Unlike US where due to strict immigration rules only cream migrated and even the non-skilled cabbies etc are inspired to follow their educated lot and make sure that their children become educated. But with Khalistani folks there is no drive no nothing - why bother when you can milk Canadian tax payers? So these guys continue their pind habits in Canada. Same thing applies directly to Tamil immigrants as well - just see how the community has gained noterity in the streets of Toronto - after all if your dad was some LTTE thug how can you expect the kid to be different?"

This is interesting (though I cant comment on the demographics of Punjabi migration to Vancouver of the years).

But with the Tamils in Toronto, compared to that of the Tamil community in London say, yeah, i heard an interesting story about that (from a very famous Tamil girl that you guys have talked on occasion here). She said that growing up in London, all the young kids wanna be like Jamaicans or adopt the Jamaican patois and all that.

But when she was in Toronto (which also has a huge Caribbean community aswell and im sure still are thought of as the down ones), some people told her that there are kids that go around saying that they are "like Tamils" or that "yo, i feel that cuz i'm like a tamil" or that they're "tamil at heart."

That is quite interesting to me aswell because though the Tamil community in Vancouver is very small, nobody is remotely saying that or about "being down like brown" or whatever. The only real influence on young, street culture like that is naturally hip hop/black steez.

...and sorry for jackin this thread like that but as a vancouver head thats been following this kind a thing for a while, had quite a few things to say about it. hope yall dont mind.

The difference between American desis and Canadian desis is almost inconsequential compared to the difference between these two and British desis.

Really? Tell us about those differences Abhi. I'd be really interested to know.

The difference between American desis and Canadian desis is almost inconsequential compared to the difference between these two and British desis.

British (South) Asians aren't a culturally-homogeneous group, especially these days, and there are marked differences between the various sub-groups with regards to the levels of both integration and assimilation, so it's a good idea not to generalise. It also depends very much on where one lives, along with "class" issues.

Overall, however, I would say that British Indians at least are comparatively less westernised in some of their attitudes compared to our cousins over in the US. But again, this varies according to location, the occupation & mindset of the parents, the specific "community" the 2nd-Generation person belongs to (and in many cases this varies according to caste too -- amongst Gujaratis, for example, Shahs are markedly more liberal than Patels, at least with regards to the people I've met), and their occupation.

You can't necessarily compare the children of (for example) Bombay-educated doctors now living in London, with the children of working-class immigrants from some village in Pakistan who now live all the way up in Bradford or Blackburn.

You also have to keep in mind that “Indian/East Indian” and “Asian/Oriental"s are the 2 biggest ethnic groups here in Vancouver. Most Vancouverites dont fear the brothas and vatos because there are very little here.

Yeah there are 2-3 times as many South Asians as blacks in Toronto as well.

I bet if you did the poll in Toronto, Quebec, Pararies you would get different results for each place.

Toronto it would be Jamaicans.
Quebec it would be the Biker gangs.
In the Pararies it would be the Natives.

Keep in mind that Canadian cities like Toronto (1.3) have lower homocide rates than American [i]states[/i] like Utah (1.8) and far lower than comparable American cities (Chicago: 23.3).

Also I have always had the impression, perhaps false, that desi politicians in Canada primarily go after desi votes. Is this not true? I am contrasting this with a say, Bobby Jindal.

-------------------------------

That said there is a serious problem with crime in among South Asian Canadians.

There is a division between groups that immigrated mainly as asylum seekers and those that immigrated as skilled workers.

I don't know if asylum seekers that are the problem, example desis from Africa tend to be well off.

Ahh forget all this blah blah about assimilation and integration and racism and colonialism. Me thinks its all about IQ. Always suspected the Jatts have low IQs. It must be all the sarso ka saag they eat. Wait, I eat that also. Must be something else then.

Hey, I mean Eh Razib - Can you do a regression analysis to prove that all the problems with Jatto-Vancouverians is because of their low IQs?

Also, Calgary is too cold, always shrinks my privates. But they have the damn oil. Grrr.. Brrr

There is a division between groups that immigrated mainly as asylum seekers and those that immigrated as skilled workers.

. You can also make good money here doing things like driving trucks and building houses! As a result you find less Sikhs here in the professions and more of them doing working-class jobs.

I've spent approx. 15 years in Vancouver growing up, and now 3 years here in San Francisco. The Indo-Canadian violence (not to excuse the media) is of higher visibility most of the time because of the magnitude of the act. Yes caucasians are involved in crimes, and to a high degree, but I would assume that these crimes would be bank robberies, attempted kidnappings, house break-ins. These such acts don't stick to the mind of residents as do the large police forces that surround a house grow-op is taking place, a club where a person or persons have been shot. Oriental south asians are more involved with the grow-op crimes as well as that of prostitution. Whilst sikhs and fijian first generation indians are involved with the trafficing of drugs and settling disputes that have derived from the prior through killings. Yes I point out sikhs and fijians, because they are the largest numbers of south asians in the lower mainland, and given so don't have the greatest need to assimilate with the larger society at hand. I being part of neither of them, found myself in a multi-cultural group since elementary school. Unlike here in the bay area where the stigma of being south asian is that you hold an engineering job, and an expensive house on the hills, being generalized as "south asian" in Vancouver means you are sikh, who are better known for the violence over the last 15 years. Having said that it takes much away from some of the greatest achievements of South Asians in Vancouver, from government to healthcare (doctors, nurses and (where almost 50% of UBC's medical student body is made of south asians)) .

Abhi as for divorce rates, in my 3 years here in the bay area I have found the reverse to be true. Like a prior reader said, divorce is still frowned upon the south-asian society in Vancouver. I actually have not heard of or known many divorces in the community. This is also partly attributed because the punjabi household is still like that of back in India, where you move in (if you are the bride) to your husband's household where his family lives. There is also the fact that many south asian women though might be educated have a financial dependency wto their husbands. Here in the bay area, the number of divorcees seem much higher, and I would think its because here there is much more independence given that there is no family ties, that domestic violence is less tolerated, and that financially women are more independent as well.

One last thought even thought it might sound too generalized is that in the US you have a menlting pot system, while in Canada what you have a hand is a Mosaic.

"The Indo-Canadian violence (not to excuse the media) is of higher visibility most of the time because of the magnitude of the act. "

- Yeah, thats what I was saying aswell (and how the hell do you quote lines on here like everyone else?). In Vancouver anyhow, not like the media wont play it up at the same time but if they didnt have anything to play up in the first place.....right? Its kinda like that Digital Underground part in that old school anti-gang song "We're all in the Same Gang:" "Other races, they say we act like rats in cage, I try to argue but check it, every night in the news, we prove those suckers right and I got the blues."

"There is a division between groups that immigrated mainly as asylum seekers and those that immigrated as skilled workers"

- Naw, disagree pretty much with that. Perhaps between the parents coming over here but the kids/second generationers on, are pretty much all in the same boat I think.

"Yeah there are 2-3 times as many South Asians as blacks in Toronto as well.
I bet if you did the poll in Toronto, Quebec, Pararies you would get different results for each place.
Toronto it would be Jamaicans.
Quebec it would be the Biker gangs.
In the Pararies it would be the Natives."

- I'm not sure about the actual numbers of South Asians compared to black it Toronto but its def the young black kids who are the media button there right now. There was a hugely publicized shooting in Toronto on Queen's street (or the main shopping strip) on f'in Boxing Day as everyone was BD shopping amongst young the young little 'gangtas.' I'm not sure in about the South Asian community right now in TO but the blacks are putting together proprams and working with the city, etc to try and cool this shit down, just like amongst the South Asian scene here in Vancouver.

Like I said before, i think it was the east Asians gangers that were looked at as more of 'the gang problem' here in Vancouver in the late 80s/early 90s but I cant recall it ever got to a point where the community had to get together with the specific anti-violence programs, etc. Its not like the little Vietnamese and other (east) Asian ("Asian" refers to the east/south east Asians here in Vancouver) kids, etc arent packin their guns around town and doing stupid shit but all of the major shooting incidents in Vancouver over the past few years have def been within the brown scene more and we're talkin like major, public, day light even incidents.

But, it may be debatable as to who is getting more coverage between the brown gangers and the Angels here though.

Ok let me preface that I lived in Vancouver most of my life, lived in Toronto for years and am now among the yanks in NY.

Vancouver Indians are quite unique than the rest of Canada and the US.
The only other city to rival the number of Indians in Vancouver, would be Toronto. However the major difference is the makeup of the Indian mix. In Vancouver it is predominantly Punjabi, and of that Sikh, and of that Jatt. In Toronto & NY - the South Asian community is a mix of religions, North, South, religions, caste what have you - no one group can dominate the city - however in pockets there are dominant cultures at play.

Within the Sikh community in Vancouver, there is definately a generational problem. The parents are generally good people, they work hard and try to do the best for the kids, and yet they have no idea what is going on in their lives. For the most part, most were land/farm owners where land status, not education is pushed. As well the overwhelming joy at having sons prevail so that they do shower their sons with all sort of attention, toys, cars etc.. sacrificing themselves for their sons - this in & itself is not so horrible. It is just that these kids are not doing anything to deserve this besides being born male? Now this is nothing new it's been going on for years.. what has changed in the local scene is the drug scene in Vancouver. You have a situation where there is now "work" that can give them the sense of power, money and prestige without having to do real work. Those who are not doing the drug trade, still benefit by the halo effect of looking like the desi thugs/goondas out there - and when you are in a culture/community that supports this, even naively, then it can & wil flourish .

As for the Toronto Tamil community - there is something similar at work in terms of the young men doing similar things. However the reason the Vancouver Tamil community is not the same, is primarily based on origin. Toronto's Tamil community is overwhelmingly Srilankan and ties to the Tigers are prevalent in the media, slang & culture. Vancouver's Tamil/South Indian community from India is miniscule and overshadowed by the large Punjabi Sikh culture which why you would not hear similar vernacular.

I personally attribute that when any culture is large enough to not have to climatize be it in Vancouver, London, NY, Houston etc.. -the results are the culture is insulated from the free market of ideas that prevent it from having a dialogue and improving the community at large. This is no different than what some US cities face with their African American/Latino young men as well.

In the U.S. it has been my experience while growing up that if you, for example, tell an Indian friend that you are headed to an all-Indian party on a Friday night, you are frowned upon a bit.

But...that’s terrible! Does this not cause some kind of backlash? Don’t people end up strangely prejudiced against a type of party just because they don’t want to seem like they don’t like other types of parties? If peer pressure makes people party elsewhere then does it not also cause people to have all-Indian parties in the first place? What I'm saying is, this sort of subtle forcing of assimilation can't be all good and having said that it can't be any better than the peculiar concentration of the Indo-Canadian population in metropolitan peripheries.

Lower incomes are twice as likely to be seen among visible minorities (including Canadian-born) than Canadians of European decent. Lack of educational/employment opportunities, discrimination, poverty, physical or emotional abuse at home, rigid patriarchal value systems are all involved in turning kids to violence and gangs. Many Indo-Canadians suffer from these factors but to say they do so more than their American counterparts or even their Canadian visible minority counterparts is a gross miscalculation. On average, across all Canadians, male youth from all ethnic minority groups are at higher risk of joining youth gangs. I hardly think this is a Canada-specific reality.

Also, damn I can't believe it took 70+ comments for someone to say "mosaic"!

Some numbers on the difference between Vancouver and Toronto Punjabis (sometimes using religion as a proxy -- not singling out Sikhs).

--20% of Toronto Sikhs have university degrees, while only 13% of Vancouver Sikhs do.

--11% of Toronto Sikhs speak no English or French compared with 14% of Vancouver Sikhs

With respect to "ghettos", according to this paper:

In 2001, South Asians in Toronto lived in neighbourhoods where on average
20.2% of the population were South Asians; the number was 24.7% in Vancouver.

Not much difference. But:

the rapid expansion of visible minority neighbourhoods was primarily the result of a large population increase through immigration .... Only among South Asians in Vancouver and Montréal did an increase in population share contribute to less than half of the rise in the exposure index."

Same level of segregation, different reasons.

On divorce

-- 2.8% of Vancouver South Asians are divorced versus 2.3% in Toronto.

-- 2.2% of Vancouver Sikhs are divorced, versus 2.0% in Toronto

Seems irrelevant.

Abhi wrote:

Really? What is the Indian population on Canada? I know in the U.S. it will be coming up on 3 million by the end of the decade.

Don't be dense. Canada is one tenth the size of the US. Canada's 1m South Asians (not Indians) are proportionately three times more important than in the USA. We're also the second biggest non-white group (projected to be number 1 in 2017) -- which garners positive and negative attention.

To stop the pissing match -- USA Desis are wonderful people. Most of my family is American. But they'll never be more than a proportionately tiny minority. Canadian Desis are also wonderful. But they face totally different national challenges because of their proportionate size.

arosebyanyothername: "As for the Toronto Tamil community - there is something similar at work in terms of the young men doing similar things. However the reason the Vancouver Tamil community is not the same, is primarily based on origin. Toronto's Tamil community is overwhelmingly Srilankan and ties to the Tigers are prevalent in the media, slang & culture. Vancouver's Tamil/South Indian community from India is miniscule and overshadowed by the large punjabi Sikh culture which why you would not hear similar vernacular."

I'll agree that a similar affect is taking place within Toronto's Tamil Community, but its not due to the same circumstances or even within the same generational gap. What is happening in Toronto yiels similar endings which are Gang shootings. These Gang shootings though arise from a struggle that has