haha, love the sneaky ways in which people define their 'heritage'. watch the bbc doco 'motherland' and laugh at this black dude who spends his whole time in london just bitchin' about 'africa and slavery man', finds out his exact tribe, and then travels to africa only to find out that his 'warrior name' means slave trader and that 'his tribe' were middlemen who sold their own kind to european colonists.

on one hand, i can see where people who disagree with race-based affirmative action are coming from. they want to address inequalities too, but on the principle of economic needs which is the whole point of affirmative action anyway. and there are some who cheat the system...

from the outside its mainly just a symbolic debate, but from the other side those who support race-based funding see it as an acknowledgment of the strong correlation between raced and social status for the worst-off in society, who were usually previously indigenous people/slaves.

its all v troubling. on one hand we need to acknowledge historical injustices, on the other hand we need to be practical. then i think of people like my friend jamie, who is the first person in her family to go to university, to not be on permanent welfare or in a low paid job, and to go do a double law and arts degree at that. and all of this through a special race-based scholarship which pays for all of her fees.

however, even someone who supports race-based funding agrees that 49% in IIT is crazy. the aim is to move towards equality NOT an inverted hierarchy, which is just as bad.

Are the people in Bangalore insane?

haa haa haa, here,it is cow tipping, there, it is car tipping... i'm surprised no one burned a local bus and a petrol stations for good measure... i thought they always did em in three's.

Rajkumar has an effect on people and yes, he is deemed to be the "voice" of kannadigas.
He is much revered ... But when will these people realize that burning buses and throwing stones will not bring him back...hey! it's the tax payers money...Aughhhh

Someone did try to burn a petrol station and would have succeeded - if only it wasn't for those meddlesome policemen.

A crowd attempted to set on fire a petrol pump, but timely intervention of police prevented a major fire mishap, police said.

The DNA testing thing is rife with possibilities of legal misuse. Do you think American juries, when they sense an entitlement, back down from awarding the plaintiff (over common sense). Remember the first Vioxx trial ? More on it here.

i always used to be, well still am, amazed at WHY they like to flip cars and burn public buses, which i am sure some would need to have taken home. stoning gov. cars, ok, i sor tof understand, well, i gues si understand stonign any car, but public transportation.. well, thats a mystery... the petrol station, i guess at some point ther eis an explosion as the fire gets tothe tanks, and maybe people like watching big huge fireballs...

but in this instance,why they went and ruined the guys lawn and clashed with cops, where there were injuries is baffling...

i have two posts on the topic, here and here.

In contrast, race-based affirmative action is incredibly imprecise, clubbing wealthy minorities in with the poor and casting a pall of suspicion on all those who made it on merit.

Thats exactly what the MandalII proposal is. Its a RACE BASED classification. A lot of Indians dont admit (or dont know) that 'Caste' is the same thing as 'Race'. Indian constitution originally wanted to abolish Caste based quota in a few years after independance. In a shamefully pandering way Indian politicians keep continuing the "Caste/Race based Quota" system.

I like how "Ashley Klett’s younger sister" is ignorant enough to think she will gain an edge by marking the Asian box. Forget about having a negligable impact--she will easily harm her chances. It's ignorance like this that makes the general public think that Asian (and, by association, Indian) Americans BENEFIT from racial preferences.

think minority - become minority. It is a (negative) state of mind.

The bloggers at Sepiamutiny while religiously, and regionally diverse are all from what are defined by the government of India as 'forward communities'.

This would more or less be the make up of educational institutions without a caste based quota.

70% of Indians belong to 'backward communities' (scheduled castes/scheduled tribes/OBCs as defined by the govt of india), a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.

The trick is to stike the right balance between the allocative efficiancy of merit based entrance and the conflict lowering effect of reservations.

The reservation is not necessarily a bad idea:

1) The OBC category will have extremely competent students, who are just a hair below the open category students. We are not talking about a massive handout here.

2) The elite institutions, more than others, should strive to represent India, and not just the upper castes. I would think that for management in particular, it is a good idea to interact with students who represent the cultural landscape - and not just one portion of it.

3) With such a high rate of reservation, the so-called quota students will have a large presence on campus. They will not so easily be ostracized (as the Dalits have been in the past). Many will surprise the naysayers and admirably succeed.

4) MNC employers will still be able to distinguish students based on their performance at the IITs. The proposal seems to call for doubling the open category seats in any case - so the same number of people who would have gotten in in the past will still get in. The cream - of whatever caste - will rise to the top.

BEAH,

Whether you get to blog on SM is a function of your financial stability (having a computer/internet) than your caste. Having reservations based on so-called backward caste and not for economically backward students is just as injust. Many urban "dalits" are on par and surpass others, at least economically. Although, reservations are needed, they should be based on income/access to primary education/representation in society. It surprised me to see that colleges have "payment/donation seats for OBS/SC/ST".

It would be helpful if you back up your 70% number theory.

it is not a question of just caste, dalit and brahmin.

There are lots of poor people who are from foreward castes. Just as there are a lot of rich people who are from backward ones.

This is a really complex area. I agree to one thing - that it is going to be difficult to reverse centuries of social injustice in a few decades. However alongside the quota system we also need to create wealth and jobs for all the people of the Union of India.

What we need is a non-Congressi government who are going to take bold steps on craeting a strong domestic private sector, increasing competition and using clever protectionist capitalism to lift individuals out of poverty.

minority/ majority mentality, minority/ majority appeasement and caste based politics and social system is one of the rots that holds India back.

The bloggers at Sepiamutiny while religiously, and regionally diverse are all from what are defined by the government of India as 'forward communities'.

To supplement what Hammer Sickel wrote, the issue of caste isn't really relevant in the case of Indians living in the West. One's caste is a non-issue here with regards to income, future financial prospects, educational background etc.

Jai:

>>>> To supplement what Hammer Sickel wrote, the issue of caste isn't really relevant in the case of Indians living in the West. One's caste is a non-issue here with regards to income, future financial prospects, educational background etc

- It is not an issue because those holding the caste tag don't make it an issue. But it is an issue in India for the simple reason people hold the caste tag and don't realize the have thae ability to move on esp my moving out of the villages they live and go elsewhere to start a new life.

Ok, I know, eaiser said than done.

To supplement what Hammer Sickel wrote, the issue of caste isn't really relevant in the case of Indians living in the West.

It doesn't seem that way if reads the comments at SM regularly. 70-80% of SM readership is western-based.

I never seen "emotional ownership" of caste and religion ever among Indians than what I see on SM, not even in the motherland.

It is quite possible that only a certain section of people are more inclined to comment. Maybe. Often, in motherland, there is an unwritten rule that one never asks somebody's caste/ religion nor open declares theirs (except the thakurs in Bollywood phillums). You can run into serious problems doing so.

So, Jai, I would say the opposite to your observation.

"I never seen "emotional ownership" of caste and religion ever among Indians than what I see on SM, not even in the motherland."

Kush, as a western born desi, I had no concept of caste growing up. Thus, I'm not even 100% sure what caste I am (seems like a complex system), and it never came up in family conversations... well only once as a child when conversing about India, and naturally I asked.... needless to say the response didn't mean very much without a proper context. Maybe this is why you see so little acknowledgement of it here on SM.

However, posts like these do put in perspective the problems with the caste system in India. I do appreciate this.

Often, in motherland, there is an unwritten rule that one never asks somebody's caste/ religion nor open declares theirs (except the thakurs in Bollywood phillums).

And it is not something that people would not discuss with others.
Often it begins with ooh i am a khatri from place x...then so

And RC you are wrong on caste as being race based.
Look at kumaon pundit and a kashmiri pundit and a south indian pundit
A kumaoun pundit has more in common with the rest of kumaon resident.
They have significant 'pahari' ancestors and it looks so,
A lot of them have asian features(eyes, sinewy build etc).
A kashmiri pundit looks more similar to a kashmiri non pundit.
same goes for south indian pundits(i know about some claims that they are aryans
and are lighter skinned than other south indians etc, but i dont buy that
cause you can see the variability in skin complexion allover india and often
in the same family.)

GGK,
I will have to agree with Kush . It is considered uncouth to discuss one's caste in most cities and big towns. I think (do not knwo this for a fact) caste is discussed openly in the smaller towns and villages.

My issue with the current reservation system is that it benefits the same people whose parents and possibly grandparents have taken already advantage of these reservations. We should restrict these benefits to only one generation and (I know this is difficult to implement) make sure others who are really backward get to take advantage of these programs. Curently a small minority ( I do not have any links for this ) benefit a lot and sometimes at the expense of a FC candidate who is otherwise poor.

Irrespective of what one feels , I think we can all agree that reform is needed at the structural level not just increase reservation "quotas".

Metric Ang,

You are probably misundertanding my point:

a) The problem of caste system is very deep and pernicious still in India, even today. It very easily translates to economic opportunities. Often people change their surnames to "Singh" even if they are not Sikhs/ Rajputs/ Thakurs so that they can seemingly become caste-neutral to the society. I know people who have dropped their surnames, like Kamal Nath Gupta becomes Kamal Nath.

b) However, for reasons that it can be very sensitive, people do not put their caste and religion on their sleeve in India in public discourse. I also know that using their identifier in public is on rise in India as opposed to 80s-90s. I think expats do more so, as a tenous connection/ entitlement to motherland. Look around for Gujarati Society, Brahmin Samati, etc. in North America. They are toothless (or harmless) in the bigger scheme of things in North America or West and in principle they may have some postives too - but it is more explicit among expats and PIO (People of Indian Origin).

c) Often, I see comments here, like somebody who would say, I am a Punjabi Khattri or Shaiv Hindu, etc. in their discussion as their distinct identifiers. I must repeat there is nothing wrong with that. However, back in India, you would never bring this on the table beacuse you are sensitive to other's caste, religion and affiliations during the discussion. Maybe, it is only a facade in India, but it is there. I have denied the real problem beneath the rug.

Correction: I have not denied the real problem beneath the rug.

I will have to agree with Kush . It is considered uncouth to discuss one's caste in most cities and big towns. I think (do not knwo this for a fact) caste is discussed openly in the smaller towns and village

Look around for Gujarati Society

Again the point is not to pooh pooh some one for associating in a caste/region/religion based organization.

HA! Half the time when i had this discussion its the urban semisophisticate who asks me these questions to me on my flights to india

OK. I think we move in different circles.

And there is nothing wrong with any one asking that. I dont think any one considers it uncouth or offensive

I think it might differ regionally. I grew up in the south and among friends this was never a topic of conversation. It was to be avoided at all costs (more so than religion). I don't even think it is facade as Kush puts it. We always thought caste was something your parents discussed not urban semisophisticates like us.

Also, I consider it ironic that the sepia crowd who is always asking "who am I? " considers adding caste to one's name harmless.

Often, in motherland, there is an unwritten rule that one never asks somebody's caste/ religion nor open declares theirs (except the thakurs in Bollywood phillums).

Nope its quite to the contrary. Each caste is proud of its ancestory/customs etc and even without asking they will often disclose it to you.

I agree with Kush on this one. Thats what my experience has been. I feel it would be rude to do so.

And RC you are wrong on caste as being race based.

Kush - Most Indians don't ask about caste because they probably don't need to. One can generally tell by the family name exactly which jati a person belongs to. Kids are generally not interested in caste issues, but it means a lot to the older generations on account of the culture that goes with it. Generally speaking, in India, people pretty much derive their identity from their caste and ethnicity. In fact, even on this board you find people refer to themselves as gujus, mallus, and bongs - not exactly caste but the closest thing (and the equivalent of caste under the circumstances) for second genners.

Caste is just about the most misunderstood thing about India. No question there are terrible atrocities associated with it, but there is much that is good about it. It is generally represented as something exclusionary, but actually it is much more a "belonging to" (Manu Smriti notwithstanding). Only in the last few years have people begun to take notice and to do a serious study of the system, rather than the constant knee-jerk maligning. Here's one report from a study by the World Bank.

“Since 1985,” says the World Bank’s World Development Report, “Tirupur has become a hotbed of economic activity in the production of knitted garments. By the 1990s, with high growth rates of exports, Tirupur was a world leader in the knitted garment industry. The success of this industry is striking. This is particularly so as the production of knitted garments is capital-intensive, and the state banking monopoly had been ineffective at targeting capital funds to efficient entrepreneurs, especially at the levels necessary to sustain Tirupur’s high growth rates.”

“What is behind this story of development? The needed capital was raised within the Gounder community, a caste relegated to land-based activities, relying on community and family network. Those with capital in the Gounder community transfer it to others in the community through long-established informal credit institutions and rotating savings and credit associations. These networks were viewed as more reliable in transmitting information and enforcing contracts than the banking and legal systems that offered weak protection of creditor rights.”

"The amount of networking and contract enforcement mechanisms available with caste institutions has not been fully studied, despite the striking success of Tirupur. The same is true of the Nadar community in Virudhunagar area entrenched in the matches and printing industries. On the other hand, large amounts of literature are available on Marwaris, Sindhis, Katchis, Patels, etc, and the global networks they have created. But the point that is often still missed is that, in a financial sense, caste provides the edge in risk taking, since failure is recognised, condoned, and sometimes even encouraged by the caste group."

http://newsinsight.net/columns/full_column22.htm

The quota system is very divisive and can only have negative results in the long run. It would be best to work out some form of need-based initiative.

Being a troll these days is so much fun

It’s a microcosm of the American national character, both high tech and shameless

BEAH:

70% of Indians belong to 'backward communities' (scheduled castes/scheduled tribes/OBCs as defined by the govt of india), a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.

This is SPOT ON and what people must understand before bemoaning the "dilution of merit," in IITS and IIMs.

In fact, even on this board you find people refer to themselves as gujus, mallus, and bongs - not exactly caste but the closest thing (and the equivalent of caste under the circumstances) for second genners.

It is not surprising that the blog-o-sphere is totally pissed off about the reservations. However, it should be noted that the blog-o-sphere is filled with people from priviledged sections (people who toasted the lower end of the society for more than three thousand years). What do you expect from them? They will whine because they will be losing the monopoly they enjoy on education, jobs, etc. Trying to portray as if there is widespread condemnation regarding reservations is wrong because most of the bloggers and journalists in India ARE NOT from under priviledged sections and you will only hear criticism about reservations. I am not surprised by the reaction by priviledged sections against reservations. It is similar to the reaction against affirmative action by certain sections of whites. The only difference is that the same people who oppose reservations in India (as it is suitable for them) are the one who support affirmative actions too. In a single sentence, I can sum up the attitude of desis. Desis, liberals abroad and conservative at home.

BTW, if someone is interested, there is a paper in civil rights journal about how Indian reservation system is better than the affirmative action system in US. You can check it out at

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HSP/is_1_4/ai_66678565

the dalits are against any reservations or obcs, scheduled castes etc.

should read: the dalits are against any reservations for obcs, scheduled castes etc.

Also, I consider it ironic that the sepia crowd who is always asking "who am I? " considers adding caste to one's name harmless

70% of Indians belong to 'backward communities' (scheduled castes/scheduled tribes/OBCs as defined by the govt of india), a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.

This is NOT TRUE. In North Indian states the percentage of SC/ST/OBC is about 30-35%. In south India its reverse.

a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.

This is NOT TRUE. In North Indian states the percentage of SC/ST/OBC is about 30-35%. In south India its reverse.

Oh no? The percentage of dwijas (brahmins, ksatriyas, baniyas) is approx.15% India-wide (5% perhaps in South India) The percentage of scheduled castes and tribes 25%; the remainder OBCs and MBCs. I do agree that the OBC category needs to be reconsidered because there are many powerful castes (like Nairs, Gounders) on the list who don't deserve reservations. We'll see how it plays out.

Here are atanu deys post on education and reservation matters [link1] [link2]
To me increasing access to education is the only situation and i see a slow march towards it.

I am not too sure of how relevant the issue of caste is atleast amongst everyday youth in the cities. Personally i have never encountered any situation when we meet new people and caste was a part of the introductions. Unless it is obvious, the questions would most likely be something like are you a gujju, mallu, bong etc. Anyways in a city like Bombay where you are all herded like cattle in crowded trains or buses it is just impossible to discriminate on the basis of caste. While i am not denying that if you scratch the surface, there would be a certain affinity to your caste (or community), but discrimination on the basis of caste in cities is almost non existent.

Also when it comes to OBCs, the situation becomes all the more complex, as an OBC in one state can fall under the general category in other and vice versa. There is bitter resentment amongst the SC/STs over reservations to OBCs as well. And in many places the OBC community are far well off in every aspect of social life (like the Yadavs).

The first time I became caste aware was while standing in line for collecting admission forms for engineering colleges. That was when i realised that two of my friends (who were more well off than me, and had scored the same percentage of marks) were OBCs !! The general category queue had around 3000 people, while the reserved category queue had about a couple of hundred. There was a mini riot situation in the general category queue with people pushing and shoving and it took nearly 6 hours before i finally managed to get my form, whereas the reserved category window was totally empty by noon. And needless to say, my friends got admission to better colleges whereas I had to be content with a second tier college.

I think everybody agrees that moves like these, just before elections are nothing but votebank politics and at best an attempt to treat the symptoms rather than the disease.

I do agree that the OBC category needs to be reconsidered because there are many powerful castes

Practically speaking, it will be almost impossible to remove anybody from OBC category (and there are still so many trying to get in), *especially* the powerful castes; no politician will dare to enforce it.

Oh no? The percentage of dwijas (brahmins, ksatriyas, baniyas) is approx.15% India-wide (5% perhaps in South India) The percentage of scheduled castes and tribes 25%; the remainder OBCs and MBCs

Not true again. General population in Gujarat is close to 65% (rest is SC/ST/OBC). The highest percentage population of Schedule Tribe population is in Madhya Pradesh state.

I've been asked by people in the West what my 'title' is - generally first-genners, though. When travelling in India, I was also asked repeatedly what my 'title' was. Got to be a caste-laden term. Incidentally, villagers also often asked me my name, but this seemed more designed to find out if I was Muslim or Hindu.

I read somewhere that there was a study of a big slum in Kolkata where they found half the people were Brahmins. There's dirt-poor Brahmins all over the place. What about the guys pulling rickshaws who have their sacred threads on? Who's helping them?

This reminds me of the 'designated group' category the Canadian government has - visible minorities, women, disabled people etc. I've wondered aloud why there isn't a 'white trash' category, because it seems to me that white trash is the most neglected, underprivileged group around. Meanwhile, rich well-educated Indo-Canadians are oppressed and need help.

I never knew this until a few days back. But apparently i am an OBC in Kerala, but not in Maharasthra.

Anyways, I would really like somebody to explain this concept of reservations to me and where is it going to end. Shouldnt more focus be on reaching out to the truly under privileged and making sure everybody has access to primary and secondary education so that the playing field is levelled. I am not sure how much money or resources are needed to prepare for the IIT/IIM examinations. In JEE or CAT a student is just a roll number. A roll number has no caste or creed. Thats the way the things should be. The bulk of the OBC students that I have studied with, were no different from the general category. And even though i havent been in an IIT or IIM, i have heard from a lot of friends that candidates who come in through the quota system cannot cope up with the immense pressure and eventually drop out (This is purely anecdotal, i think IIT alumni here can throw more light on this).

And so the question is, where does this end ?? What if they dont get jobs after graduating ?? In the course of creating a casteless society, employers coming in to IITs/IIMs will have to ask candidates what their caste is. What then ?? Introduce reservations in the private sector as well ??

RC:

http://tinyurl.com/kbfkq

I've been asked by people in the West what my 'title' is - generally first-genners, though

Regarding brahmins being poor that is true in UP/Bihar. Did not know if that was the case in bengal.
Brahmins were hired as cooks in UP Bihar by well to do family.
It had to do with them having the image as being neat freaks of sort....
I dont know if that is still the case...

Not true again. General population in Gujarat is close to 65% (rest is SC/ST/OBC). The highest percentage population of Schedule Tribe population is in Madhya Pradesh state.

Not quite sure what 'title' meant either (it was asked in English) - but I think it had something to do with the old jamindari system. Anyone else know? In Bengali, from what I recollect, I was only asked what my last name was. But I was always asked, everywhere, what my last name was.

My maternal grandfather's family had a Brahmin cook. He couldn't have been too well-off - he had a large family living somewhere else too.

Hmm MP even including chattisgarh etc I would have thought NE states like arunachal/mizoram may be the lead on that. We are talking %age of population not absolute numbers right?

Actually I just realized that the data I was looking at was 1981 census when there was no Chattisgarh. I think thats why Madhya Pradesh topped. It would be a different situation now that Chattisgarh is a state. NE states and Chattisgarh now would be very close.

But I was always asked, everywhere, what my last name was.

Ms. Dharma Queen,

It could mean anything - sometimes, just to figure your state (region) of origin, religion, and/ or caste. Let's not rush to decisions.

I gave example of Singh family name - it can be a Sikh, Rajput, Thakur, and from lower castes.

Another example, Saira Chaudhury, could even be a Bengali Hindu or Bengali Muslim.

An example on SM is Vinod, one of the blogger on this portal.

It ain't that simple.

Kush, don't get persnickety. I was asking people what it meant, wasn't I?

I will rush to the following conclusion - people in India seem unusually concerned about where to 'place' you, whether that signifies placing in terms of religion, region, caste etc. And yeah, you do run into that here too, but less so.

As with the Rajkumar riots which have shut down the Emerald City of Bangalore...

As with the Rajkumar riots which have shut down the Emerald City of Bangalore...

Reason for riots:
Apparently, the government did not make proper and timely arrangements for public viewing and later cremation of the actors body (due to usual red tape etc.) - and this angered the common Kannada man a lot, for Rajkumar was a veritable god in his eyes.

Does using a word like persnickety make you persnickety !!

@#32 Krish

It is not surprising that the blog-o-sphere is totally pissed off about the reservations. However, it should be noted that the blog-o-sphere is filled with people from priviledged sections (people who toasted the lower end of the society for more than three thousand years). What do you expect from them? They will whine because they will be losing the monopoly they enjoy on education, jobs, etc.

If you look carefully, the Indian blogosphere has opinions on both sides of the issue. That is why there is a healthy debate going on, not an unidimensional rant. Additionally, many bloggers (such as myself) are against the proposed increase in reservations at IIT/IIM - not absolutely against reservation. Almost all agree (even prr-reservationist) that the present system is not perfect and the goverment really needs to mend the primary education system in Indian so that people of all, class, creed, religion etc arrive at the post-high school level with a level playing field. What you are calling 'whines' have been on the whole, reasoned debates.

"One has to look at private sector in india. no one gives a rats ass about what your caste is but if you can do the job regarding disintegration in india is not a caste based issue"

This is funny though. Priviledged class will suppress under priviledged for three thousand years. Then they will open the gates and ask them to compete against priviledged sections. They will then show the success of private sector where the priviledged sector holds a monopoly. Isn't it common sense that the level playing field is totally biased against under priviledged sections in any competition because of the suppression for more than 3000 years. Science clearly shows that some sort of affirmative action or reservations are needed to level the playing field (if anyone wants to debate on this topic, I am ready with whatever proof that is needed). Also the reservations implemented in the last 50 years or so (that too badly implemented by the government) is not enough to level the playing field. The whinings against reservations (including those bloggers quoted by many commenters) are from people who are from the privileged sections of the society or those from families that has escaped any kind of suppression. Show me one person from the bottom of the Indian caste structure who had come up and who claims that the playing field is leveled, then I will even consider the arguments against reservations. As long as it is not done, it is just the whining from those people who fear losing their monopoly in education, jobs, etc.

Let us take IITs and IIMs. The government spends several lakh rupees for each student admitted into these institutions. If you see the statistics, you will find that more than 80% of the students from these institutions are from priviledged sections of the society (don't tell me this is not true. I am from IITB and I know the statistics. In fact, I am giving a conservative estimate). Why should tax payers money help only those guys/gals from priviledged sections of the society? Why can't we change the scenario so that all sections of the society benefit from the government money?

Then there are whinings saying it will bring down the quality of students produced. I think this is the most racist comments I have heard. Why do you think that people from underprivileged sections of the society will bring the quality down? Come on, people in priviledged sections will suppress them for several thousand years and not allow them any education. We also know from scientific studies that this suppressive environment is the reason why it is difficult for them to compete on par with people from privileged sections. It is also clear that there should be some sort of an "external helping hand" for few generations in order for them to compete with the privileged sections of the society (in other words to level the playing field). Under such circumstances, the "output quality" may come down in short term. But, in a long term, it will bring equality in India and the "quality" will eventually get back to the current levels with people from all sections of the society. They are not responsible for the "bad quality". It is us (people from privileged sections and their ancestors) who messed up with their life. We cannot run away from the sins of our ancestors. Someone has to pay to bring in the equality and we better pay it now rather than continue the same tactics of our ancestors in a more sophisticated fashion. I would rather be ashamed of the inequality in the IITs and IIMs than the reduction in quality for a short term.

In US, it is a shame for educated and sensible people to make racist comments. In India, if you are educated and make shameful and racist comments, you will find support among other educated people. What a shameful state we are in!! We don't even realize that our comments and actions are shameful. I would just blame our education system which is responsible for grinding out people who cannot even think properly.

BongoPondit,

You are right. There are people who are in support of reservations. When I say about blog-o-sphere being filled with people against reservations, I simply mean that the big majority of them are against it. I used the word "whining" with a reason. I can definitely show how many people had really whined rather than debate about this issue. I am sorry if my comment has hurt people who debate rationally.

Krish - thanks for your comment. I agree that the assumption that the quality of graduates would decrease with increased reservations is shameful and elitist. The same arguments are advanced here with affirmative action quotas and they are often racist at bottom. But with caste-based reservations, isn't there a risk of excluding, say, the brahmin rickshawallah's kid?

"The whinings against reservations (including those bloggers quoted by many commenters) are from people who are from the privileged sections of the society or those from families that has escaped any kind of suppression. Show me one person from the bottom of the Indian caste structure who had come up and who claims that the playing field is leveled, then I will even consider the arguments against reservations. As long as it is not done, it is just the whining from those people who fear losing their monopoly in education, jobs, etc."

not entirely true. as said before, the dalits (the most underpriveleged) have been complaining about these reservations for obcs, scs etc. because they fear they will adversely affect them. no doubt the playing field should be levelled, but not just at or beginning at the higher level. it should be coordinated with a levelling of the playing field at the primary and secondary levels. also, how to accomodate those from the upper castes who have not been priveleged and are poor? it would be nice for the reservations to be part of a properly thought-out revamping of the entire indian education system instead of a vote-getting, caste-politics gimmick by the current govt.

Anyways, I would really like somebody to explain this concept of reservations to me and where is it going to end.

When people stop asking for a boy from a suitable subcaste on shaadi.com? Never maybe?

Shouldnt more focus be on reaching out to the truly under privileged and making sure everybody has access to primary and secondary education so that the playing field is levelled.

Sure ... in addition to reservations. We need to create emulable role models in backward caste communities, and allow them to build social capital in the short run. In the long run there is far more to do...starting with literacy.

The bulk of the OBC students that I have studied with, were no different from the general category. And even though i havent been in an IIT or IIM, i have heard from a lot of friends that candidates who come in through the quota system cannot cope up with the immense pressure and eventually drop out (This is purely anecdotal, i think IIT alumni here can throw more light on this).

So if they're just as good as you buddy, there should be no problems then! The OBC category will be far stronger than the Dalit category. BTW Nokia and other multinationals are flocking to Madras and recruiting people who came through a whopping 69% reservation system. The OBC category is brutally difficult there. McKinsey says that a higher percentage of Indian graduates are "multinational employable" than their Chinese counterparts. India has been growing at 7% right through the entire Mandal period. Elite institutions cannot, should not be upper caste bastions.

In the course of creating a casteless society, employers coming in to IITs/IIMs will have to ask candidates what their caste is. What then ?? Introduce reservations in the private sector as well ??

Why not? Dalit groups are lobbying for just this.

not entirely true. as said before, the dalits (the most underpriveleged) have been complaining about these reservations for obcs, scs etc. because they fear they will adversely affect them.

Mayavati has supported reservations for OBCs and for disadvantaged forward castes to boot. Seriously, why don't upper castes fight for this rather than try to dismantle a system which they simply don't have the votes to dismantle?

Krish:

>>>> Priviledged class will suppress under priviledged for three thousand years. Then they will open the gates and ask them to compete against priviledged sections

- Not everyone from upper casts are privillaged or rich. Not everyone from tribals or dalits are underprivillaged or poor. As a whole I agree - centuries of injustice cannot be uprooted by 5 decades of quotas.

>>>> In India, if you are educated and make shameful and racist comments, you will find support among other educated people. What a shameful state we are in!! We don't even realize that our comments and actions are shameful. I would just blame our education system which is responsible for grinding out people who cannot even think properly

- Agree. But it is not the education system but a mentality that is there in most non western nations - not just India. Although as Indians we see it more.

- It is about thinking. One guy is more than happy to be the master and the other more than happy to be the servant and that too for ever without even trying to improve the situation for the next generation.

- I firmly believe that if you really want change you can get it but you must want it. One of the problems is that this is all mixed in with mifa politicians and corrupt officials. Is it no wonder the maoists are out there?

- For change to happen not just the masters but the servants must want change themselves and help bring it about within the legal framework as individuals.

Krish Show me one person from the bottom of the Indian caste structure who had come up and who claims that the playing field is leveled...

There was this gentleman called Dr.BR Ambedkar; and then another person in recent times who is now in coma; Kanshi Ram. Chandrabhan Prasad a tireless campaigner for the rights of Dalits is against the present system of reservations and would rather have a more selective one where economic criteria are applied rigorously. LM Naik the sole Dalit member of the original Mandal Commission that in 1980 recommended rervations for the Backward Classes not Castes wrote a note of dissent objecting to many recommendations of the commission.

Read Chndrabhan Prasad here But rarely do we confront a basic question - why did L R Naik, the only Dalit member in the Mandal Commission, refuse to sign the Mandal recommendations?

shiva the original?

did i steal your id?

Shiva the Original - do you really think Ambedkar would proclaim the playing field leveled??

is there such a thing as a level playing field??? acn someone answer me that??

In the US, politics and industry/ business is dominated by one class/ caste of people. The Ivey League educated bunch.

is there such a thing as a level playing field??? acn someone answer me that??

Exists only in theory (Communism/ Marxism) - in real world it can never be achieved, though that will not stop people from trying.

"Mayavati has supported reservations for OBCs and for disadvantaged forward castes to boot. Seriously, why don't upper castes fight for this rather than try to dismantle a system which they simply don't have the votes to dismantle?"

well mayawati just shows that you can't generalize about all members of a certain class or caste thinking alike, because there are dalit opponents of the reservations. likewise, not all upper castes are against reservations and are trying to dismantle the system. and try fighting for reservations for disadvantaged upper caste members (especially the "notorious" brahmins and you'll have people like s. anand of outlook magazine and kancha illaiah foaming at the mouth :)

there is no such thing as an ideal level playing field, but we can strive to be more equitable (and a properly-thought out reservations system is part of this) and eventually arrive at a purely merit-based system. another effect of caste-based reservations is that people who have left religions which have caste for those which ostensibly don't (but in reality do) are now claiming caste again so they can get benefits and reservations, even though they are not underprivileged.

will these reservations apply only to IITs/IIMs or will they also apply to privately-run colleges run by hindus, christians, muslims or other private entities etc?

Krish - thanks for your comment. I agree that the assumption that the quality of graduates would decrease with increased reservations is shameful and elitist.

@60, dharma queen,
let us leave political correcness aside for a while. Tell me why is it not so - after all, there *is* much more competition in the general category, and the cutoffs for reserved categories are noticeably low. SO if you have faith in the ability of the entrance exams to judge merit, you must agree that the institutions are taking in more students of lesser aptitude if the reservations are more, right? then why is the expected decrease in quality not realistic??
note: plz dont assume that im against reservations - i'm not, but the devil is in the details.

@krish. #58
i agree with the drift of your comment. i don't think it is fair to scrap reservations as yet, and it is ridiculous to think that dalits and some obcs are anywhere near emancipated.

but i don't agree with you completely either. in this particular instance of iit/iims i believe it is populism (elections round the corner in some states) rather than enlightenment. just like the assam govt wanted to reserve seats for assamese in iit guwahati. elections got over, you don't hear a whisper abt that now.

1.

Let us take IITs and IIMs. The government spends several lakh rupees for each student admitted into these institutions. If you see the statistics, you will find that more than 80% of the students from these institutions are from priviledged sections of the society (don't tell me this is not true. I am from IITB and I know the statistics. In fact, I am giving a conservative estimate). Why should tax payers money help only those guys/gals from priviledged sections of the society? Why can't we change the scenario so that all sections of the society benefit from the government money?

in the case of iits and iims, this is a specious argument i hear many many times. the taxpayer money subsidizes those who pass the entrance exam, not previledged sections. there is a difference in intent which is ignored most of the time. and as far as the exam goes, it is largely fair.

that said, i am all for iits and iims being required to train underpreviledged classes for the entrance exam, which already happens at least in iit madras in the case of dalits.

you should be aware that i can use your argument to say that india should not have airports, for example. it is not even 80% here, 99% of the country do not use airports.

2. regarding your comment that "the upper castes will not even let them be educated", i don't think the analogy holds here. it is not primary or secondary education we are talking abt. iits and iims do *not* attempt to be universal---they are more like a lottery rather than aid.

i know i am on a slippery slope here. iits should have a broader impact, but at present, they will take in only 2000 or so.

3. like many have pointed out, it is very important to note that while dalits are disadvantaged today uniformly across the country, not all obc's are disadvantaged. and even that (some) obc's stand more in the way of dalits today than the traditional upper castes.

iits should have a broader impact, but at present, they will take in only 2000 or so.

Byteword,

I agree with most of your points. However,

IITs = MIT/ Caltech/ RPI of India. MIT, Caltech, and RPI has very small and selective admission policy too. These small technical universities are not for everyone, here and even there. Sure, the selection process should be fair. In principle it is (as you said) for JEE/ CAT exams but I guess economics plays role in leading up to admission process.

IIMs = Sloan/ Wharton of India. At least, they have entrance exams and on paper, you are on level-playing field in IIMs. Here you can supossedly walk into Sloan or Wharton if you got educated @ Cornell/ Darmouth, get grade-inflated (don't tell me it doesn't happen, I know it rather too well), get uber-coached for standardized tests, and whalla, you are in. George W. Bush could not get admitted to UT, Austin law school but was admitted to Harvard Business school. Recently, in news, there was IIM A graduate whose mother is a street-vendor who turned down some blue chip offers. Quite unlikely, at HBS.

Regarding IIT/ IIM reservation, I am kinda neutral. I know some IIT/ IIM graduates who made it initally through reservation, and then they rose to the top. Some sank without trace.

Sure, to be competitive for IIT/ IIM exams, one has to be in the right socio-economic class that can afford coaching, etc but same is here.

DesiCynic:

I read a copy of an ICS exam some time ago that makes me think that the entrance exams, like many entrance exams to many institutions around the world, are dubious indicators of aptitude. The questions were class-biased and general (some of them had to do with recent tennis champions!). I admit I don't know what IIT's entrance exams are like. But surely someone from an underprivileged background may have the aptitude to be a stellar scientist/engineer/whatever, yet not have the knowledge to do well on an entrance exam. If entrance exams were true indicators of aptitude, the best scientists and thinkers would always be those with the highest entry marks.

What is a JEE exam for IIT admission? From http://www.webindia123.com/career/entrance/jee/intro.htm

The JEE consists of (a) preliminary examination (screening test) and (b) main examination. Preliminary examination consist of an objective type paper of 3 hours duration in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics. Only those candidates, who qualify the screening test are eligible to appear in the main examination. The main examination has papers in physics, chemistry and mathematics of 2 hours duration each.

In principle, they are about calculus, and physics problems. They are not any "goofy" eassys like here or about honor societies or debate clubs.

So Kush, merits of 'goofy' essays aside, how does this refute the point that an underprivileged person might not have the background or knowledge to do as well on an entrance exam? If Student A has been tutored to death, gone to the best schools, and had a rich set of parents nagging at him to study, while Student B has gone to a government school and been plagued by a host of poverty-related problems, there's a far greater chance that Student A will get past the entrance exam.

Maybe if you'd written a few goofy essays you'd know how to address an argument.

@dq, 74
the entrance exams for jee are reasonably fair. there are several coaching centers that claim to be know "how to get into the institutes" and they do manage to get a lot of people into the iits. but they drive their students worse than the most illtreated donkey, so it could just be the effort that pushes the students in.

where i came from, we had no good coaching centers then. so we were left to fend for ourselves. (good) correspondance coaching though is in the reach of most aspirants (abt 2k-3k = roughly 50$ or so for 2 years), so almost every one in the country can afford these.

since we are talking technical exams here, there is not much scope for class-bias or anything like that. and yes, the exams are purely technical, no general interest categories or anything like that.

and the jee has been successful in one regard---all the students who do well are good. what it does not or cannot achieve is to measure small differences in aptitude. but yes, those in the top 250 or so in jee are significantly off the charts by almost any measure. and you will be surprised how well represented some god-forsaken village in bihar is in this list.

what krish pointed out is however true. you will not see dalits in this category---endemic discrimination is definitely to blame for it. the exam acknowledges this drawback---you do have 22% reservation for sc/st in jee.

how does this refute the point that an underprivileged person might not have the background or knowledge to do as well on an entrance exam?

Sure, economics plays a big role getting in IIT/ IIMs. For most part (not always), the people who get admitted to IIT/ IIMs are educated in private schools/ high quality public schools/ with coaching classes, etc. Not always. I am sure some of the IIT/ IIM graduates from humble socio-economic background will comment themselves @ SM. Let them speak out.

In general, a son or daughter of a street-vendor even sharp as a knife will get lost in the economics of staying afloat and day-to-day struggle, and will not be competitive. However, if you walked into IIT campus, you will see more students from humbler background than Cornell, Harvard, etc. Please note the key word is "more". I have two sample points: IIT (Roorkee), and Cornell. I am not going-off the tangent.

Bytewords,
I'm an arts graduate and wrote a lot of goofy essays, so bear with me:

In Canada, Native Canadians can get into certain programs in university without meeting the same requirements non-natives have to. The logic is that if you were sent away to residential school (terrible schools, for the most part, where native children were abused), your parents were alcoholics, you were abused, there was no food at home, you were subject to isolation, racism etc. you might have more difficulty meeting the requirements most non-natives can. I don't have a problem with this because it seems to me that a Native may have the necessary aptitude for a field, just not the necessary experience/knowledge. Just because some sweeper woman's son can't solve a physics problem as well as my cousin on entry to IIT, does not mean that he won't be able to solve it better on his exit.

Kush Tandon

Regarding IIT/ IIM reservation, I am kinda neutral. I know some IIT/ IIM graduates who made it initally through reservation, and then they rose to the top. Some sank without trace.

There is a Dalit fellow now a grad student at Stanford who topped IIT-Bombay in aeronautical engineering after getting in on a reserved seat. There will be scores of success stories like this in the future. As bytewords says this is exceedingly political and it may not even happen--Brand India (All rights reserved) may just win out in the end, but I think debates like these are important.

@dq, #80
what goofy essays??

ah you assume iits want to turn out the best graduates. no, they want to take in the "best" students after 12th. best of course in a qualified sense.

all that can be said is that if you are exceptional, you have a chance of making it if you really desire, no matter how poor you are---i am speaking with some qualifications here. and if i am not good, i have no chance of making it, no matter how rich i am---no qualifications here.

but trust me, 1/2 my class had to take out loans (easily available though if you make it into the institute) to pay the tuition+board per semester. many are not particularly well off at the iits, and you will find a better mix of all economic classes in the iits than almost anywhere else.

Let us take IITs and IIMs. The government spends several lakh rupees for each student admitted into these institutions. If you see the statistics, you will find that more than 80% of the students from these institutions are from priviledged sections of the society (don't tell me this is not true. I am from IITB and I know the statistics. In fact, I am giving a conservative estimate). Why should tax payers money help only those guys/gals from priviledged sections of the society? Why can't we change the scenario so that all sections of the society benefit from the government money?

The IITs select (and subsidize) those who do best in the JEEs. They do not look at the checkbooks or bank accounts of the parents. Yes, it is true that those who get in can generally afford private tuitions and are not generally destitute. But that is a far cry from saying that it subsidizes the privileged and undeserving. To pass the JEE in the open category, you have to slog like crazy and/or be very smart. The kid of Azim Premji cannot get in without passing the JEE. The IITs are/were following the right strategy, because it is an investment likely to pay off very big. It is not a handout without a payback. Are you telling me that the subsidy that went into educating Narayana Murthy, the son of a very average middle class teacher, was not worth it? I would argue that just one Narayana Murthy was enough to make up for all the subsidies given to all IIT students at that institution. Not to mention all the others who have raised India's profile and also brought in investment and technology from abroad. And all sections of society do benefit from this. Using Infosys' example, all the ancillary industries that have sprung up to serve as vendors to Infosys have jobs because of the employees and management of Infosys. BTW, as India gets more prosperous, the size of the subsidy can be cut. But if you treat an IIT admission as a handout rather than something worth competing for, it will lose its value.

Does the Dennis Lillee Foundation select the slowest bowlers from the pool of youngsters? Or does it select the ones with the best combinations of speed, strength and skill?

i am lost in the detail, but it is fascinating, but, a few comments....

i don't know many brown people, but over the past few years i have talked to some and it is clear that a small, but vocal (or unseemly, depending on how you look at it), subset of americo-browns are very caste/ethnic conscious. of course these tend to be self-perceived "high castes." they are not caste conscious in the "kill the sudra who looked at my wife way," they are caste conscious in the embarrassing-guy-who-brags-he's-descended-from-the-king-of-france sort of way. i always think, "but dude, what do you call an indian dude who is of brahmin origin? a brahmin sand nigger." i think the caste consciousness you see among some on this message board is simply a reflection in differences in the south asian american and western south asian community. while i believe a majority are either fully assimilating or generating a new pan-brown-identity, a large minority are crystallizing and reinforcing their own self-perception as "iyers" or "punjabi khatris" or "kashmiri pandits," etc. more power to them, but a minority of this minority are not sincerely reaching for a deeper and more fully realized understanding of their ethnic identity, but just want another merit badge to impress other people with, and it usually shows (among muslim browns those who ostentatiously claim non-brown origins all the time is similar, muslim browns do have non-trivial % of non-brown ancestry, but it is somewhere around 5% turk/persian/arab vs. 95% brown).

re: reservations. i don't care much about the details, but one might want to consider the % who graduate or succeed of those let in. one can always find instances of those who succeed 'despite the odds,' but if you let in 10% on reserved slots but only 30% of these graduate vs. 80% of non-reserved slots you might want to consider that. 30% is still a large enough % that you will be able to general many anecdotal examples of success.

finally, i hope you canadians are freezing your asses off. you have a queen, but we've got longer growing seasons!

Krish - thanks for your comment. I agree that the assumption that the quality of graduates would decrease with increased reservations is shameful and elitist.

Assuming that entrance tests has some correlation on the applicant's success in college whereas caste has none. It follows that greater reliance on the latter will reduce the quality of the applicants.

The logic is that if you were sent away to residential school (terrible schools, for the most part, where native children were abused) your parents were alcoholics, you were abused, there was no food at home, you were subject to isolation, racism etc. you might have more difficulty meeting the requirements most non-natives can.

It's shameful and racist to assume that natives are bad parents and alcoholics.

-----------------------------------
It's also racist to assume that black kids or lower caste kids will be disadvantaged. We do it anyways.

Quotas and affirmative action are NOT about priviledge. They are about trying to keep the peace between largely endogamous clans by artificially reducing interclan disparities.

I'm not trying to nit-pick here but ICS exams include questions on tennis and the like which can be answered by merely reading the newspapers and are not necessarily class-biased. Meaning I don't have to play tennis to know who won the Australian Open last year.

Maharashtra has a "quota" for women in most colleges which sadly led a lot of the boys I knew to assume ALL the girls had gotten in through the quota! Trust me, that allegation hurts if you have an awesome rank on the merit list. That experience taught me that reservation would never bring the underprivileged on par, atleast not in the minds of the others. Better to fight it fair and square methinks.

And it's become a matter of convenience too. The boy who consistently topped Pune university in my batch happened to belong to the OBC category. When the time came to apply for a Master's degree, he easily got in through the "general" list, but a lot of students on the waiting list approached him and asked him to instead apply through the OBC/SCST quota which was pretty much open. This would allow one of them (a non-OBC) a chance. For obvious reasons, the topper refused and thus earned the reputation of being inconsiderate and selfish. You can never win on this one it seems.

Trust me, that allegation hurts if you have an awesome rank on the merit list. That experience taught me that reservation would never bring the underprivileged on par, atleast not in the minds of the others. Better to fight it fair and square methinks.

i have several similar stores. one is almost identical. this friend of mine from maharashtra used to be vehemently opposed to "any kind of reservation", as she put it. we never understood why, since she was usually very sensitive in acknowledging that dalits are tremendously disadvantaged. then we found out that her college had this kind of reservation. so she had this position to protect herself from being perceived as one of those who got in through reservations.

it is amazing how many different ways people will think. :)

Whose God is it anyways,

I agree that it should come from bottom to the top. I also agree that Arjun Singh is trying to bring in reservations in IITs and IIMs without even bothering to fix the existing reservation system for purely political reasons. However, we cannot deny the fact that we need some kind of a system where IITs and IIMs also benefit other segments of the society. Also I am talking about people who are totally against the concept of reservations itself. Those Dalits who speak against OBC reservations are doing it for political reasons. They wouldn't say that the concept of reservations is unnecessary.

Shiva the original,

None of the people you quoted have said that the playing field is leveled. I didn't ask for people from under privileged section who had made to the top. There are many including our ex president K.R. Narayanan. I wanted you guys to show one such person who had claimed that the playing field in India is leveled.

bytewords,

"in the case of iits and iims, this is a specious argument i hear many many times. the taxpayer money subsidizes those who pass the entrance exam, not previledged sections. there is a difference in intent which is ignored most of the time. and as far as the exam goes, it is largely fair."

I never said that IITs and IIMs are meant to train only the priviledged classes. I just said that the people who get in are mostly kids from privileged sections. The reason for this is that the playing field is not leveled and it is biased totally towards the privileged sections. It is my argument that there should be some kind of "external force" that will allow the kids from under privileged sections to get into these institutions.

Just because the playing field is not leveled anywhere doesn't mean that we shouldn't aspire for it. You need not be a Marxist believer to aspire for it. Even if you are a capitalist, you should aspire for a level playing field. Capitalism will be 100% successful only in a level playing field. If only the playing field in US is a leveled one, we wouldn't have had events like Katrina. So I would not agree to the spin that level playing field will only exist on the marxist theories. Just because a society doesn't follow marxism also doesn't mean that the society shouldn't aspire to have a level playing field.

Beef,

Point taken about the assumptions re Native parents. Let's just say that generally speaking the substance abuse rates, poverty rates, history of abuse, single mother rates on reserves have been shown to be a lot higher than in the general population. It's not racist to say that its harder under those conditions to get high marks, or study with great concentration. I don't buy that entrance exams are an absolute indicator of college performance. If you use them as an absolute indicator, you risk excluding people who haven't yet had a real chance to prove themselves.

Vanya,

If you're a village girl in Bihar, are you as likely as some pampered Mumbaikar to be reading about the Australian Open? Of course these questions are biased!

Razib,

Yes, but we've got the oil. Come winter, tick us off and we'll see whose asses freeze off.

reservations hurts those who would have gotten in anyhow, but probably helps the majority of a given group. so it depends on who you empathize with. here is a black american law professor:

Let me illustrate my point. I am willing to bet that I am the only member of this list who feels compelled to put his standardized test scores and National Merit award on his CV. Why do I do this? For those of you who do not know me personally, it is not a matter of braggadocio. Every September I have to deal with nearly 60 prima donna first year law students whose first and only (initial) reaction to my skin color is that they have been cheated out of a "real" Contracts professor, and are stuck with an "Affirmative Action" instructor. Many of them come around when, as some "gunners" often do, they look up my CV and find that I have outscored virtually every single one of them on the test around which they have centered their lives, the LSAT. Others usually come around by mid semester when they have had an opportunity to compare my teaching to that of their other instructors. If numbers (standardized test scores and teaching evaluations) could obscure my skin color, my life would be heavenly.

i feel for this guy. there are many dumb white people who couldn't hack it who assume that asian americans have it easy in college admissions because they need an excuse and want to make themselves feel better, how do you think they perceive people like this black law professor? of course, very few black americans score really high on standardized tests, so if you want to play it by the greatest-good-for-the-greatest-number than it is fine that people like the one above go their whole lives being assumed to be less intelligent by their intellectual inferiors until proven otherwise (ie., the assumption of "but he needed affirmative action"). ultimately, i'm selfish enough not to care too much, i'll just make sure i don't have a black doctor unless i can check his MCATs or something objective if he is a specialist.

I never said that IITs and IIMs are meant to train only the priviledged classes. I just said that the people who get in are mostly kids from privileged sections. The reason for this is that the playing field is not leveled and it is biased totally towards the privileged sections. It is my argument that there should be some kind of "external force" that will allow the kids from under privileged sections to get into these institutions.

i mentioned one of the things that are being done to level the playing field in the line after the sentence you quote from me. iitm at least trains dalits for the entrance exam. i prefer these methods---which work in my opinion---to increasing reservations from the current level---the increases are political, may or may not work and have unknown, unconsidered side effects.

i always think, "but dude, what do you call an indian dude who is of brahmin origin? a brahmin sand nigger." i think the caste consciousness you see among some on this message board is simply a reflection in differences in the south asian american and western south asian community. while i believe a majority are either fully assimilating or generating a new pan-brown-identity, a large minority are crystallizing and reinforcing their own self-perception as "iyers" or "punjabi khatris" or "kashmiri pandits," etc. more power to them, but a minority of this minority are not sincerely reaching for a deeper and more fully realized understanding of their ethnic identity, but just want another merit badge to impress other people with, and it usually shows

I admit I am probably one of those "sand niggers", but my self-identification came because of other reasons - certainly not over loss of privilege, and certainly not to impress people. Do you remember the scene in "Saving Private Ryan", in which there is a Jewish US soldier wearing a Star of David, walking past a line of German POWs pointing to his Star and saying "Juden"? That is overstating it, I agree, but that is the general feeling I get about my own self-identification. It was a drag living in a state where the founder of the prevailing ideology said, "If you see a snake and a brahmin, kill the brahmin first." My own circumstances were humble, I used hand-me-downs a lot, and there were lots of others like me - why the hell were they baiting me and my kin? To me, my own relative success is a big fat "F*ck you" to them and their ilk. The fact that others like me were also successful was icing on the cake.

dq,

Glad you asked. I lived in Allahabad for 2 years and you'll be amazed at the sheer number of coaching institutes for "IIT/PMT/IAS" punctuating the scenery. About 95% of the girls living in the hostel I was at prepared on average for about 3 years to qualify for the big names (somehow, they didn't care for the average Engg/Med schools). A large number of them being OBC/SCSTs. The odds of them knowing who won the AO last year are most definitely higher. And you may want to check on how many successful candidates on ICS exams are "pampered mumbaikars". You'd be surprised. I totally agree with you, ICS exams are not a fair judge of anything, but it has nothing to do with a class-bias.

By the way Dainik Jagran and Amar Ujala print the same news the English dailies do.

I admit I am probably one of those "sand niggers", but my self-identification came because of other reasons

actually, no, i am talking about born in america browns. and, i think there are those who are very ethnic-caste conscious who are not necessarily "sand niggers" (kumar the kashmiri pandit sounds like one). i'm saying that the subset who are ethnnically conscious and ignorant are the ones that tend to annoy, and, embarass. and extreme form of this is an individual of mexican-american heritage who claimed descent from the royal house of spain. i immediately asked, "oh, are you a bourbon?" he was like, "say what?" there was a pre-bourbon royal house, but someone that's probably not the reason he didn't know that the current royal house of spain are the bourbons.

From what all of you who actually know about these entrance tests are saying, caste isn't an issue - there are tonnes of low caste people in hostels or coaching institutes, studying away and getting into the schools of their choice. So then it's poverty that is the real issue. I'm thinking of some of the sun scorched huts I saw outside of Santiniketan, and the tiny rural schools, imagining a kid from one of them making it...

But if poverty is the real issue here, then why are people in India still sticking together and voting in terms of caste?? (And yes, I know that is a sweeping generalization, but presumably these caste-based reservations are in place largely in response to popular demand.)

Vanya,

If you're a village girl in Bihar, are you as likely as some pampered Mumbaikar to be reading about the Australian Open? Of course these questions are biased!

not my business to answer, of course. but it is sort of common knowledge (i believe the syllabus also mentions it) that part of the preparation for ics is reading newspapers, and keeping up to date with all sorts current affairs--incl the example you cite. newspapers are cheap and widely available even in bihar, and most cover a significant amount of international news unlike american newspapers at least. so it is not abt pampered mumbaikars here.

i am not saying the ics is not biased, i don't know abt that.

again, with regard to #80 too, there is a difference between how you would think in india and canada. what is seen in canada as an indicator of class bias may not be so in india. you are just extrapolating something you picked up and applying it blindly to an entirely different scenario. trust me, a poor person on social welfare in canada may be more previledged than many newspaper-reading-aussie-open-fans in mumbai.

I'm not just a sand nigger, I'm a kulin brahmin sand nigger (we're the ones that were allowed two wives a while ago). And personally I think I descend from those five guys from Kanauj who rode into Bengal to civilize the Vangas.

You Americo-browns learn to spell yet? That's colour, not color!

canadians/aggressive = undefined.

So then it's poverty that is the real issue. I'm thinking of some of the sun scorched huts I saw outside of Santiniketan, and the tiny rural schools, imagining a kid from one of them making it...

they are more common in iits than you think. i can give you one you may know already: sk dubey. while what sk dubey is uncommon (and remarkable), his background is not very uncommon.

voting in terms of caste??

Do they really? Say if there is constituency which is dominant in Thukars, all the candidates from Congress, BJP, Samajwadi Party, Janata Party, CPI, CPI (M) will have a Thakur candidate in an election, no matter what. If the constituency is dominant in Muslims, then all the candidates will be muslims (even BJP), for example, parts of Uttar Pradesh. Therefore, in the end voting is about more than about castes that since all the candidates belong to dominant religion/ caste of that constituency. You think any of the party is that naive.

Just like US of A or UK. Race politics and gerry mandering just like west - no different. Just hispanic/ African American vote in USA.

Often, for Member of Parliament (Lok Sabha), it is the cult of personality that matters most - that too same as West. Are people from Rae Barelli constituency from Sonia Gandhi's caste (white catholics)? Or for Sachin Pilot or for LK Advani for Meolind Deora? Or George Fernandes - in past he used to get his vote bank from factory workers? CPI/ CPI (M) ususally goes after factory worker vote banks. Movie actor politicians need not belong to dominant caste either.

Jaya Prada (a South Indian Telugu) is a Member of Parliament from Uttar Pradesh (Rampur constituency) - Go figure. No caste common there - nada.

The latest Bihar elections have even challenged conventional wisdom about Laloo Prasad Yadav's style of politics.

Kush - get over your inferiority complex already. Why drag in the US or the UK when no one else is making a comparison. Of course there is ethnic and other bloc voting everywhere. The question is why caste-based reservations are a choice political move in India. There has to be some basis for that.

Your point about only thakur candidates being posed in thakur-dominated constituencies etc., only confirms this - if caste weren't an issue, the parties wouldn't hesitate to put other types of candidates there. No one is suggesting that ONLY caste is an issue. But it is an issue. Hence the political motivation for caste-based reservations.

Bytewords, thanks for the Dubey info. Inspiring and sad.

Dharma Q -
I thought we had an understanding - that you would refrain from criticising other countries/cultures until you start taking a closer/much needed look at your own backyard.
The crimes committed by your people are amongst the most heinous mankind has experienced.
And the sad part is that the canucks have yet to beg forgiveness for their vile methods of ethnic cleansing.
And NO, just because you are of Indian origin or were not born there does not absolve you of the responsibility to at least air these issues publicly.
Also, If you would like me to refrain from assigning the moniker - hypocrite to your compatriots, have the decency to refrain from pointing fingers at others.
Remember that live in glass houses, don't change clothes during the day....or use the bathroom, for that matter.

hallejuha! those mounties were terrible ethnic cleansers, you know it!

Look NotPC - the day there are news items on this site dealing with Canadian Crimes against Humanity (CCH), I'll join you all in a bash the canucks fest. Please take note that most people on this thread have been talking about caste based reservations at IIT and other schools, NOT CCH.

Is Razib one of your aliases?

hallejuha! those mounties were terrible ethnic cleansers, you know it!

Well, they actually did have a plan along the lines of sending all the South Asians in Canada to British Honduras (Guyana) in the early 20th century. They didn't go through with it thankfully.

First some facts..

About merit and reservation. This is the TamilNadu medical admissions cutoff criteria.. for 2004

Another analyst, Jayaprakash Gandhi of Salem, notes that last year the cut off scores for MBBS entrance in the government colleges were (including the TNPCEE scores) — OC-295.74; BC -294.26; MBC-292.13; SC-287.56; and ST-274.00.

The lowest marks of the ST candidate is 274/300 that is 91% .

Karnataka and TamilNadu have been using reservations for engineering admissions bordering in the 69% for decades..

Most of the FDI in high tech industries goes to these states..

It is a fascinating experience to read the comments here..

This is what someone else commented in another board

## the iits were not exclusive institutions. anyone who qualified by competition could get admitted to one, regardless of religion, caste, language, region, income, or wealth. they are therefore for ALL people. we want to keep them that way.

Once every kid in India is entitled to the same quality of education regardless of religion, caste, language, region, income, or wealth I'd agree with you.. Till that time, the govt. should give those crutches. Agreed that this system is not proper and open to abuse, but it is better than having "market forces" dictate.. because "market forces" can never help the folks at the bottomline.. and they have no incentives to do so..

First of all, students don't get into IITs by just going through the regular academic rigour.. IIT-JEE requires special coaching and a different kind of preparation.. If there is any student in the top 2000 ranks who qualified for the IITs say they did not take any special tuitions (like Brilliant/Agrawal/ other umpteen coaching centres) I'd be really surprised. If you know of someone who just by his/her natural brilliance woke up the day of the JEE and cracked it, please let me know.. The exams are biased in favor of urban / affluent and kids who probably had well educated parents..

I admit I don't know what IIT's entrance exams are like.

As I have been pounding out for the last few days on the web let me repeat it here. India has a merit based selection system for the best universities/institutes and that includes IITs/IIMs as well I am too tired to explain that now. Maybe later. Now if the reserved category student could have topped aero at IIT Bombay what it illustrates is that the correlation between talent and entrance test marks is not entirely reliable. And in any case race and caste are bogus ideas; and the idea that these have anything to do with achievement is horsemanure. If a reserved category student who scored less than the general cutoff mark can be admitted why not a general category student who scored less than the cutoff?

In India families especially the lower middleclass spend like crazy on education - out of all proportion to means. Selections to IITs/IIMs is not correlated with privilege as much as access to urban centers. It is in the cities and towns that one finds coaching centers. And it is the the lower than the middle middleclass tiers that produce the largest group of elite school admits in India. It is for them the payoff is the highest. The wealthier families as a rule send their kids abroad. These folks can't. Check out the Doon School (Rajiv and P Chidambaram studied there) class of 2005 and you will see. I have a couple of cousins and a 'family friend's son' who entered IIT. One of them has never seen his father being a posthumous child and studied in a municipal school - and used to practice math with a piece of chalk on scrawling on the floor. The other two have lived very modest lives both of them flew for the first time when they flew into the US to study.

Krish, Ambedkar isn't around today. As for Chandrabhan Prasad and BP Mandal they have talked about the creamy layer.

If you know of someone who just by his/her natural brilliance woke up the day of the JEE and cracked it, please let me know..

A lot of them without coaching. They were excellent students to begin with. They had passion for math, physics, and chemistry.

Do you really want to start naming them? If you insist, I'll do it but would not rather do it because one day they might google their name one day.

They are ex-IITians who are coaching poor students. In fact, one group had 30 candidates from Bihar place very high JEE test last year.

I knew a completely blind student from IIT (Powai) who did his PhD in Applied Math/ CS from Cornell and later worked for Adobe. Again, I am refraining from naming him. I think he is driven by brilliance.

About a year ago, India Today showcased a women who is now an investment banker in London - through IIT (Kanpur) and Wharton. She is a Muslim from a village. Her grandfather was the guiding light for inspiration and he took her to exam center for JEE everyday to the town form her village. India Today subscriber, please help me out with more details.

Ask byteword, DesiDudeinAustin, technophicgeek for more stories.

Krish

"One has to look at private sector in india. no one gives a rats ass about what your caste is but if you can do the job regarding disintegration in india is not a caste based issue"

This is funny though. Priviledged class will suppress under priviledged for three thousand years.

Regarding education I allways felt that the governments role has more to do with creating a solid foundation.
Atanu and many others have pointed out that there is a market for higher education.
In that regard the governement is wasting its money there yet a market needs to be created in primary education
The government if it had half a brain would get out of IIT/IISC/IIM/REC/AIMS rather would focus on delivering
primary education.
If the kind of resources that get put in running IITS into primary education for EVERY ONE.
And then let elite and plebian education center evolve.
India has a large enough private sector education market.
Gurucharan das had pointed out that mostlikely a privatesector led org will provide the solution to indias
dismal education.
Here is what he had written .

How are poor Indian parents coping with this tragic state of affairs? With typical Indian ingenuity it seems, according to another study by Prof James Tooley of the University of Newcastle. They are pulling their kids out of government schools and enrolling them into cheap private schools that are mushrooming in slums and villages across India. Of 262,075 children in 918 schools in the slums of Hyderabad’s old city, only 24% of the children were in government schools, 11.4% were in private aided schools and 65% were in private unaided schools (half of which were unrecognised). Although teacher salaries were a third in private schools, parents (many of them rickshawallas) preferred to spend Rs 70 to Rs 103 in fees because they found children learned more in private schools.

PS since this is kind of caste related i am not a khatri just my handle is.

Kush:

That is good to know.. Now tell me how many out of the 3000+ candidates every year belong to that category.. Just give a %..

IITs and IIMs are elitist institutions and the govt. has spent so much money on those. The govt. has every right to decide the admissions policy..

Kush pl fill in the details.

Shiva the original, you did a great job explaining UPSC exams but just let me add the basic framework of UPSC exam, and bandwidth (it gives a lot of freedom) it has

Paper-I One of the Indian Languages to be selected by the candidate from the 18 languages included in the VIIIth Schedule to the Constitution (Qualifying Paper) 300 Marks
Paper-II English (Qualifying Paper) 300 Marks
Paper-III Essay 200 Marks
Papers IV & V General Studies (300 Marks for each paper) 600 Marks
Papers VI, VII, VIII & IX Any two subjects (each having 2 papers) to be selected from the prescribed optional subjects (300 marks for each paper) 1200 Marks
Total Marks for Written Examination 2000 Marks
Interview Test 300 Marks
Grand Total 2300 Marks

At this point I want to you to introduce one of the smartest and sensitive blogger, Uma from IndianWriting. She is an IAS (Indian Administrative Services) officer. She is an example of how for most part these exams pick the cream of India. Maybe, guys here should ask her about socio-economic angle of selection. She probably knows more than any of us here.

One of the top civil servant in India is a woman from Sikkim - No Delhi, Mumbai there. She used to be the Foreign Secretary of India. She was ambassoador to Ireland, Australia from India. Anyone remembers her name. People are talking about her being the President of India, one day.

Couple of points:

1. The Indian government is using census data from 1931 to formulate its brilliant list of OBCs. That's right - 1931. Caste data was collected in the 1951 census but was never analyzed and the categories were simply dropped in subsequent surveys, which only included data on scheduled castes and tribes (SC/ST). [Link]

2. It's hard to come across relevant current data since the Indian government appears content to talk out of its ass, but a 1992-1993 study (conducted by the National Family Health Survey) of correlations between caste and economic condition found interesting results in three states surveyed (UP, Bihar and Tamil Nadu). While the survey found that SC/STs and OBCs generally lived in miserable conditions, it found wide INTRA-group economic variation within SC/STs and OBCs. It also found that despite decades of a popular Dravidian movement against its 3% Brahmin population, Tamil Nadu's Dalits still remained in pathetic condition. The study concluded that pure caste based policies were an ineffective way to uplift lower castes as a whole because the already privileged members WITHIN each designated quota benefited the most. Economic criteria would be a more effective way to uplift the most disadvantaged Indians. [Link]. Also see [Link]

3. Using the 1931 census, the Indian government compiled a list of some 3,743 castes to be classified as OBC. Here a few examples of what OBCs include [Link]:

a) UP & Bihar - Yadavs (yes the same Yadavs who control the political machinery of UP and Bihar)
b) Gujarat - folks with last names like Thakore and Rathod
c) Tamil Nadu - scheduled caste converts to Christianity IRRESPECTIVE of the generation of conversion
d) Rajasthan - Jats (!)

SMR:

Economic criteria would be a more effective way to uplift the most disadvantaged Indians.

after 111 posts, finally, something realistic and logical, and i would imagine, applicable to everywhere in the world.

=)

Mandal-1 was implemented in 1989 and the subsequent 17 years have seen phenomenol growth of the Indian economy.
So maybe the idea of caste/race based reservation is not a hinderance for economic growth....at least in the short term.

At a social level however,its like an old wound has been re-opened.No matter how much those of us from Bombay or Delhi continue to deny it,caste identity and affiliations run deep.

Back in college(a national insitute in Delhi...truly cross-sectional....North-South...rich-poor....general-reserved) some of my most terrible memories are those of students fighting each other on caste lines...otherwise smart,sensible people who would turn into neanderthals.......the reserved castes had a simmering anger coupled with a complex.....the general category an all-round rabid anger at the reservation policy......no attempt was made ever from either side to understand each others position.

This would eventually lead to much destruction.......I guess you do have to demolish a building to be able to construct a new one but there should be smarter ways of doing it.Unforunately,our society does not seem to possess the maturity ,the patience or the direction to be able to find those.

Cry ,the beloved country.

Ponniyin Selvan,

Thanks for the link in Post 106.

However the question arises: As backward castes become upwardly mobile, they must be be given the forward label. For example, the Nadar caste of Tamil Nadu is probably ready to be called forward. But there is no pressure to declare them forward.

(I think) the whole point of this debate:

-is one based on principle. Its only symbolic whether we make affirmative action race-based or economic-based, because despite the exceptions that occur in every group in society, the overwhelming majority of low-caste people are poor.

-Sorry for pointing out the obvious, but talking about the rich low castes vs poor high castes is like saying that indians are v rich based on the example of lakshmi mittal. a few indians are v rich, most still live below the poverty line. there are a few people who have 'made it' from lower castes, but this needs to be put in perspective.

-I also think that making affirmative action based on economics goes against the very reason that affirmative action was created in the first place. the phrase grew out of the civil rights movement to recognise the disparities between blacks and whites in america created by historical injustices. removing the factor of race from it is like taking away the colours from the rainbow and leaving only the outlines. as much as we would like to, we cannot make a history of racism towards lower castes (particularly in our own country which has been through colonisation)invisible.

-yes, there is a small minority who cheat the system. just like there is a small group of people who cheat on welfare. but that does not mean that the system itself is unfair.

-i do think that ideally we could make it economically tested, but in reality we need to take into account the brutal treatment of those outside and on the lower rungs of the caste system throughout history, many of whom are also indigenous people, and how this treatment has in many ways, not been erased. someone commented earlier that 80% of students at iit etc. are from privilieged classes. i DO NOT think it is right to make the quota 49%, but maybe increasing it to around 25% would help erase some of the unfairness in society.

-the symbolic erasing of history by a mechanical value system of economics may have its place, but not within affirmative action.

@taz,
affirmative action (reservations) in india existed since independence ('47). it has nothing to do with the civil rights movement in the US, it has its roots in the independence movement in india (not sure why you brought that up, disregard it if you did not mean so).

also it is not symbolic to make it economics based instead of caste, i would think it will significantly change who are the recipients. it is part of the complications/dilemma that we face today.

the reservation level in the iits is already around 25% and in most states it is around 50-70%. so increasing it to 25% is not the point of discussion here. the issue is increasing the reservations in iits and iims from 25->50%.

and it is not the reservations for sc/sts (indigenous people included) that is the point here. the ones who bore the brunt of the discriminations were the sc/sts and indigenous people. the reservations we are discussing here would be for what are known as obcs (other backward castes). i would use the term carefully, some of the "obcs" in question are the ruling/dominant (politically and economically) groups where they come from.

taz and tashie... please don't kill me :). too late in the night for me!

what did I say??? Did you confuse me with tashie?

brown ppl should all go tamilanananananathan and have multisyallabic names so that ppl can't be confused. how aboot that, ey? (i hope you're freezing your asses off up there...i had a hard time finding a really cold city on weather.com so i can't offer a link)

affirmative action (reservations) in india existed since independence ('47). it has nothing to do with the civil rights movement in the US, it has its roots in the independence movement in india

Yes, in fact it some even pre-dates independence.

Even in electoral politics, there are constituencies @ State and Center (Federal) that are reserved for SC/ST/OBCS and SC/ST/OBCS candidates in general category does not count to the quota.

I want to bring a fascinating profile of George Fernandes. He is a Christian from Karnataka. His power base lies in Bihar, initially as Union leader. The first time he won a major election (became a kingmaker) was from Mumbai/ Bombay.

Most of the season center-level (Lok Sabha) politicans are wily survivors who really can work their way into alnost any demographic/ religious/ caste configuration with promise for pork.

Rae Barelli constriuteny was originally Feroze Gandhi's constitueny. Feroze Gandhi was a Parsi getting elected in UP as a labor leader. Then it become Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi, and Sonia Gandhi's constituency. Maneka Gandhi, a sikh, and widow of Sanjay Gandhi is MP from Philbit constituency (Uttar Pradesh) on a BJP ticket. I do not think there is significant sikh vote in Philbit.

Jaya Prada is an amazing example of pure star power. Dharmendra, a sikh Jat from Punjab is a MP from Bikaner (Rajasthan) - sure, Jat affinity is playing some role. Raj Babbar - a muslim, and a three time MP from Agra is rumored to join BJP soon.

Very early on thread, I said there has to be affirmitive action in India but as byteword said, not going over-board with it.

brown ppl should all go tamilanananananathan and have multisyallabic names so that ppl can't be confused. how aboot that, ey?

i've never met another Ananthan, im not sure what i'd do if i did... i think we both might explode.

to: v smart people:

-wow you really know your stuff! which is why i kinda said that 'the PHRASE' grew from that movement. reservation schemes and quotas for people from underprivileged groups has been in place in many countries for a long time.

-to me the connotations of that phrase and what it stands for is intrinsically tied to race and historical injustices arising from racial discrimination.

-i just looked at the debate from a symbolic point of view, so all those who think i'm a bit crazy direct said anger towards me, not poor taz...

-to me though, it is kinda worrying that while those from the 'economic-based' camp agree with those from the 'race-based' camp that we need to help the poor, often in many situations those who argue for economic-based funding are NOT from underprivileged groups themselves. to me that's a bit of a warning bell. its sort of like giving someone medication and then asking a healthy person in the waiting room,'so, did it work?'

-also i won't be killing anyone, byteword and others, since your arsenal of empirical data is formidable and my views are not set in stone and most of my knowledge on the topic does not come from india or the us but where i live. if you see what i posted earlier, i was very divided on this issue. i've been reading arundhati roy's 'the ordinary person's guide to empire' as i've been checking this post, so that's been influencing me too.

-however, its not often that i say this, but with this topic even ms. roy hasn't gotten my fully convinced... economic-based camp, take a bow.

*me fully convinced. woopsies.

So if they're just as good as you buddy, there should be no problems then!

I meant that the OBC classmates of mine were as well off or even more well off and had all the resources available with them, so why did they need reservations ??

In the course of creating a casteless society, employers coming in to IITs/IIMs will have to ask candidates what their caste is. What then ?? Introduce reservations in the private sector as well ??

Why not? Dalit groups are lobbying for just this.

That sounds neat !! Then the next logical step would be to introduce reservations in the course of your career growth as well, 50 % of all managers, 60% of all Directorsetc in company should be from the reserved category, all promotions should be caste based and there should be an independent government appointed body to enforce this rule.

Oh well, I will just send my kids back to Kerala, get the non creamy layer certificate and tell them that they are OBCs and require special handouts. I can sleep peacefully at night anyways knowing that this has been a tried and tested formula that has worked well for the past 60 years and there arent any more farmers committing suicides and all the adivasis are jumping with joy knowing that IITs/IIMs have reservations for them.

also i won't be killing anyone, byteword and others

me asking you not to kill me had nothing to do with the discussion.. it was because of this:

what did I say??? Did you confuse me with tashie?

i mistyped tashie's name as taz. :P

@tashie,

not many will insist on economics based reservations and doing away with race based reservations. and again, this is not a technicality, the recepients potentially change significantly for economics and caste based reservations. but again as i mentioned before (#72), the purpose of reservations is not complete. what many people will debate over is how much (the current caste based) reservations there should be. so it is not clear cut as the economics vs race camp here.

continuing from #127
now it is really time to sleep. but just one more...

tashie, make up your mind based on what you see when you are in india. it is usually not a good idea to listen to me or anyone else on a topic as divisive (and something that has touched many on this thread) as this. several people involved have had widely varying experiences on this, and to a large extent these experiences mold our opinion.

if you read any one opinion, no matter how articulate it is, or how much we claim to know it all, you will only see one angle of the story. just see the range of opinions on this thread, eg. (i am picking three widely varying unique opinions) #58 krish, #86 vanya and #92 jm---you will see different people have had very different experiences. there is no point in contesting any of the three experiences as invalid, but you can you see any one solution to all three? in my opinion, none of the three are isolated.

it is a deeply messy problem. therefore the moment some politician comes up with a fix/improvement/idea just before elections, i tend to be *really* suspicious.

P.G.Wodehouse

Thanks for the link in Post 106.

However the question arises: As backward castes become upwardly mobile, they must be be given the forward label. For example, the Nadar caste of Tamil Nadu is probably ready to be called forward. But there is no pressure to declare them forward.

First, we need to abolish caste system based on birth. that system might have worked in say 1000 B.C, but not relevant anymore. WHy do we keep pushing for "forward/backward" etc.. The creamy layer from the so called OBC/SC/STs needs to be removed. They garner all the benefits leaving just a few crumbs to the really deserving. It should be made available for just the first generation folks..

Second, as someone pointed out, people who argue for reservation based on economic conditions in India are most probably the people born in the "so called" privileged castes.. :-)). The reservation clause in the constitution talks about "socially AND economically" backward classes. Even if the "economic capital" is low for some amongst the "forward castes", they have a high "social capital", (say aunts/uncles as senior government officials, in the industry, in foreigh countries). Personally, my "upper caste" friends at school who can claim that they have been denied engineering admissions due to reservations, either joined B.Sc, did M.C.A, joined Aptech/NIIT etc.. and right now work in the booming IT/software industry, like everyone else. If you have a "100% reservation" to inherit the "social capital" through intra-caste marital relations, why not offer a "minimum %" for the historically under-privileged classes in the "academic" and "bureacractic" machinery to improve their "social capital". Makes sense?? :-)

Personally I agree that the economic background of the candidate should be the primary factor, but unfortunately this is complicated by caste-prejudice issues within India which mean that the caste factor can't be ruled out entirely.

First, we need to abolish caste system based on birth.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, as we all know, this is easier said than done -- and there have been attempts by various groups to eradicate this system and the associated mentality for at least 500 years (certainly 300 years -- speaking of which, Happy Vaisakhi everyone).

People with a certain mindset, cultural environment, and cultural conditioning like to keep dividing themselves up into increasingly "exclusive" groups, especially if doing so enables them to feel some kind of advantage or sense of superiority over the other groups. Desis are particularly prone to this kind of behaviour, and it happens out here in the West too -- in the UK, pertinent examples would be caste-based gurdwaras (the very notion is an oxymoron and heretical concept within Sikhism), or the fact that Hindu social organisations here frequently splinter into adversarial caste-based "clubs".

By the way, my (much) earlier point about caste being a "non-issue" amongst Indians here in the West, at least the UK, was to do with barriers to prosperity and career progression. It's obviously a complete irrelevance with regards to the wider population. However, a disproportionate number of individuals within some groups here do still perpetuate the "caste mentality", most notably Jatts amongst Sikhs and Patels amongst Hindus.

I have applied for US Visa, I am out of India.
Those idiots can screw themselves.

Kush,

Feroze Gandhi's family has a long history in Allahabad. I once met a distant relation of his (who is a Ghandhi BTW, born post 60s) whose Hindi is pure Allahabadi, drawl and all. Pilibhit is in the Terai right, where you have a large number of Sikh farmers who moved in from the Punjab post WW1? Maneka is remarkable even with all that and one of our finest parliamentarians. George Fernandes's story is a stirring one. Fergya left Mangalore for Bombay attracted by the ideology of Lohia. Worked his way up on the streets of Bombay and organised the Hind Mazdoor Sabha unions. He speaks 1/2 a dozen languages fluently.

maybe a good start fro change would be to stop calling them backward classes, and maybe, just my opinion here, underpriviliged, infering economic condition, and this would cut across the indian caste system. then as many many have suggested, give those UP population a leg up by giving them basic high quality primary and secondary education, as well basic medical care. part of this would mean economic assistance as well, as many times young children have to help support family by working, and cant goto school, or go part time.

this long discussion as been an eye opener for many i am sure, not familiar with the system in india, but for me, it has been a huge eye opener for the mindset of people as highly educated as many here are, as well as economically successful. seems even talking about it is divisive.

ponniyin,
some minor issues. i am not completely familiar with the scene in tn. so the disclaimer: you will have to pardon wrong assumptions here. [neither are you apparently abt karnataka :)--it had a 50% cap on *all* reservations (= 50% for merit) till recently, and as far as i know still does. unlike the 69% number you mentioned in another comment.]

The reservation clause in the constitution talks about "socially AND economically" backward classes

nope, and it should not be that way. and the reason is that while the above statement is intellectually pleasing, there is no way you can implement it. what we have just calls for reservation for classes which are listed as per the constitution. that list defines "backward", and the way you get on the list is the democratic route. there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the approach.

Personally, my "upper caste" friends at school who can claim that they have been denied engineering admissions due to reservations, either joined B.Sc, did M.C.A, joined Aptech/NIIT etc.. and right now work in the booming IT/software industry, like everyone else.

now, this is exactly the statement (in the reverse direction) that contributed to the 5k odd years(or 2k or 1k years whatever you like) of oppression. you know very well aptech/niit route (or mca) hardly has anywhere near as many opportunities as an engineering degree. neither does a bsc--unless you get extremely lucky.

if you say their uncles and aunts will give them jobs in the private sector, or that they can go abroad, i must remind you we are talking abt the engineering degree here. i doubt anyone would give a job to a nephew with no (appropriate) degree. and except a handful, no one in india has the capability to fly to US leave alone study there. this "support structure" that is supposed to exist (i have heard a lot abt this) is just a myth in all except a few cases.

but i defer further discussion to those of you who have actually been through the system in TN---you and jm and whoever else (i forget now).

my point is this: note that i am not speaking against reservation. just that i don't believe it is a simple "us vs. them" issue. it is ok to accept that some people get a raw deal with the reservations. what is wrong to assume that these cases negate any justification for reservations.

reservations are necessary but they are not a "cure all".

typo there: i meant "what is wrong is to assume that these cases negate any justification for reservations."

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

First, we need to abolish caste system based on birth.

BTW, your link in #106 only showed that the state in its zeal to marginalize the 3%ers has not found that browbeating them is not enough. It also needs to make tests so easy that 10,700 out of about 137000 students scored perfect or near perfect scores of >= 197.5 out of 200. I wonder if there is a correlation between percentage of near perfect scores in a state administered exam and its zealotry against the "open competition" people.

Your link also had this gem:

Another fallout he notes: Candidates under "Open Competition" (but not belonging to the reserved categories) may not be able to get the top notch colleges like such as Madras Medical College or Stanley Medical College, even if they get 200 out 200.

"the 3%ers has not found that browbeating them is not enough" should have been "the 3%ers has found"

bytewords,

[neither are you apparently abt karnataka :)--it had a 50% cap on *all* reservations (= 50% for merit) till recently, and as far as i know still does. unlike the 69% number you mentioned in another comment.]

I got some reference for the numbers
...The party demanded implementation of Mandal Commission report in toto in the case of Other Backward Classes. The party said 63 castes have been identified in the Jammu and Kashmir under OBCs which qualify for 27 percent reservation under the category of socially and economically backward castes identified by Mandal Commission for J&K State. the memorandum added that if the Government wants to give reservation to residents of backward area, it can give the same on the pattern of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu Governments, where the reservation has exceeded upto 69 percent....

We have to go into some background here. States like TN and Karnataka have reserved engineering seats for the SC/ST/OBCs for decades (amounting to 69% ) before the central govt. promulgated Mandal commission recommendations for 27% reservations to OBCs in govt. jobs.. When people filed cases against this, the Supreme court enforced a limit of any kind of reservations not exceeding 50%.. (from the mid 90s) That affected states like TN which continues to reserve 69% of seats, while the affected students go to court every year and this kinda became a ritual.

One more clarification.. I think in the constitution it is "socially and educationally backward" classes and economic condition is not even mentioned..

now, this is exactly the statement (in the reverse direction) that contributed to the 5k odd years(or 2k or 1k years whatever you like) of oppression. you know very well aptech/niit route (or mca) hardly has anywhere near as many opportunities as an engineering degree. neither does a bsc--unless you get extremely lucky.

Well.. I just narrated my personal experience.. It is possible that a few folks get screwed.. and this may look like a "reverse discrimination". I have no "Fix Everything" magical solution. But look at this..

... Nearly 15 years after the Union Government brought in the Employment of Manual Scavengers and Construction of Dry Latrines (Prohibition) Act, 1993, manual scavenging, one of the most degrading and dehumanising of the occupations `assigned' to Dalits under the hierarchical Hindu caste system, remains not the least affected by the legislation.

The Act sought to abolish manual scavenging by declaring employment of manual scavengers for removal of human excreta an offence, and to prohibit construction of dry latrines. The Act's failure to make a dent on the obnoxious system is attributed to the apathy of the Governments at the Centre and in the States. While the Centre took four years to notify the Act, the State Governments took three more years to adopt the Act as required by the Constitution. Even after the Act came into force in many States by 2001, no significant fall in the number of dry latrines or those engaged in manual scavenging has been reported. ..

Of course, the reservations (right now) are supposed to be for OBC's and not for Dalits, but you get the drift. These folks are used and exploited by the govt., (who cleans the municipality / corporation sanitary drains when it gets clogged), companies etc.. etc.. Same case for let's say rickshaw pullers.. How can you expect "merit" from the kids who grow up in such environments. Even getting their kids to school would be a great achievement..

I don't think giving a few seats in IITs / IIMs would suddenly lift the folks up.. It would probably end up benefitting the "creamy layer". But who knows, even if a few kids make use of the govt. scheme to get out of the vicious cycle, the scheme would be a success and I'd welcome it..

I got some reference for the numbers ...The party demanded implementation of Mandal Commission report in toto in the case of Other Backward Classes. The party said 63 castes have been identified in the Jammu and Kashmir under OBCs which qualify for 27 percent reservation under the category of socially and economically backward castes identified by Mandal Commission for J&K State. the memorandum added that if the Government wants to give reservation to residents of backward area, it can give the same on the pattern of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu Governments, where the reservation has exceeded upto 69 percent....

apparently the reference (a j&k newspaper i think) got it wrong. from the cet info page (not written by the govt, but fairly reliable), the number is 50%. the 65% number is for certain private colleges and minority institutions only (if they choose to, it has nothing to do with sc/sts or obcs or the central govt mandated reservations. govt colleges cannot have more than 50% reservations. and if remember right, even this is a new rule, and it is fairly controversial and contested in the court right now, and definitely not decades old as you say:

Karnataka and TamilNadu have been using reservations for engineering admissions bordering in the 69% for decades..

i am not sure from your comment, but i think you accept my point---i never said there should be no reservations. but it is not as if reservations are a magic cure either. and the dalit issue you brought up is fairly irrelevant for your point as you probably acknowledge---we are talking abt reservations for obcs, not dalits here. just to calrify: personally i think it is ridiculous to even say that dalits don't need reservation. but that is not the discussion here.

re: my last post, you need to read the apr 5 2006 entry (05-04-2006).

and the dalit issue you brought up is fairly irrelevant for your point as you probably acknowledge---we are talking abt reservations for obcs, not dalits here

This thread is pretty amusing, rich, forward class, diasporic desis lecturing forward classes in India on morality...

Here's and idea, since Indian-Americans (almost all belonging to the oppresive 30% forward classes in India) are so over represented in medical schools, MIT, Stanford etc. I think we should have a quota for whites, blacks, latinos and the like in American medical and engineering colleges.

Indian-Americans make up only 1 percent of the population so they should only have access to 1% of spots in medical and engineering schools.

Also we should have a quota against the 'Indian mafia' in private companies in silicon valley. (similar quotas should be applied against the Jews, East Asians, etc).

I also propose a quota against the browns in the Motel industry where Indian Americans have an unfair advantage, cab driving and owning 7-11s.

Who is with me ? Who thinks that this will improve the quality of American goods ?

------------------------------------------
Quotas based on race don't help uplift the massess but they do help reduce conflict between various groups.

bytewords:

The link you posted is fairly recent (after the SC judgement). Someone more knowledgeable about the current karnataka scenario can comment. As far as TN is concerned, I am pretty sure that it is 69% atleast from early 80's.. One more link..

...The next category of people who are entitled to affirmative action benefits are the OBCs, all of whom collectively enjoy 27% reservation of government jobs, and admission to educational institutions. It was only in August 1990 that reservation of jobs became mandatory both in the central government and the States; prior to that such reservation was accorded only in a few states in south India. For instance, in Karnataka reservation exceeds 70% while in Tamil Nadu it stands at 69% with the result that only 30% of jobs and admissions are available for competition on a merit basis. However, in November 1992, the Supreme Court decided that reservation should in no case exceed 50% of the total...

On a related note, The Ministry for Minority Affairs has a new item on their agenda, -classifying Hindus in Jammu and Kashmir, the Northeast and Punjab as a "minority." Fair and Square. But not good for the health of the nation, in addition to being a bureaucratic nightmare. Need-based affirmative action seems to be the only fair solution, imo.

The link you posted is fairly recent (after the SC judgement). Someone more knowledgeable about the current karnataka scenario can comment. As far as TN is concerned, I am pretty sure that it is 69% atleast from early 80's.. One more link.

i have been thru the system in karnataka, that is why I was sure abt the 50%. besides this whole issue abt numbers in karnataka was because i told you this:

some minor issues. i am not completely familiar with the scene in tn. so the disclaimer: you will have to pardon wrong assumptions here. [neither are you apparently abt karnataka :)--it had a 50% cap on *all* reservations (= 50% for merit) till recently, and as far as i know still does. unlike the 69% number you mentioned in another comment.]

but you took out the first couple of sentences when you quoted me. i never claimed to be sure abt tn, so like i said before, i defer to your statistics there.

there is not much point in saying this is new in karnataka. before the 2006 judgement even private colleges had to adhere to the 50% norm. and before '90s (admittedly when i was too young), there was no regulated common entrance test to speak of, so the reservation issue was fairly uninteresting since it could hardly be enforced in private (even aided) institutions.

but you may probably agree with me, this issue---while relevant---should not be the focus of the thread.

And how do you propose doing this? If a Yadav girl wants to marry only a Yadav boy, should the state insist that she should only marry a non-Yadav boy? How about if Patels want to hang out together? Should the govt imprison Patels who get together for whatever they want to do? What is your opinion on freedom of association?

There is only so far a govt. can go. It cannot legislate on who should marry whom / or who should associate with whom.. Changes should come from the society.. 60 years back, it is tough to imagine a Dalit / OBC dining with the upper castes. You had different "wells" (hindu upper caste / Muslim / hindu lower caste) for drawing water .. or Dalits / lower castes entering temples / walking in the upper caste streets with slippers.. You don't see that in cities / towns / villages-connected-to-towns anymore. Of course there are probably interior villages and large regions where this is still happening.. I am positive that 60 / 100/200 years from now, caste discrimination will be a thing of the past.. Maybe kids will talk about their grand-mom being a Dalit Malayalee Indian and grand-dad being Brahmin Tamil Indian (more in the lines of Americans having a French / Irish heritage.. :-)) )

@144
b-e-a-h for pm? you will have to get past me first. i am the kingmaker, puppet master and everything similar.

bytewords

there is not much point in saying this is new in karnataka. before the 2006 judgement even private colleges had to adhere to the 50% norm. and before '90s (admittedly when i was too young), there was no regulated common entrance test to speak of, so the reservation issue was fairly uninteresting since it could hardly be enforced in private (even aided) institutions.

but you may probably agree with me, this issue---while relevant---should not be the focus of the thread.

Though this is not the focus, just to clarify that my intention was not to mislead, this is from the reliable of all sources, the parliamentary debates..
... But I would only like to say that the Bill passed by Tamil Nadu has been struck down by the High Court. The leadership was given by no lesser a person than Ms. Jayalalitha who has really shown a way to all other States. Unfortunately, wherever the States have given the reservation for more than 50 per cent, it has been struck down by the High Courts. That is why, I say that the Supreme Court has to change this ruling. I have with me a table here which gives the State-wise reservation. In Andhra Pradesh, the general reservation is 71 per cent, but it was struck down by the High Court. In Karnataka, it is 68 per cent. It met the same fate. Again, in Madhya Pradesh, the reservation is 78 per cent. It has also met the same fate. Tamil Nadu's 68 per cent has been included in the Ninth Schedule. Therefore, Kerala has passed a Bill. That Bill is to avoid or to remove this creamy layer. The name of the Bill is Kerala State Backward Classes Reservation Act. Therefore, that Bill of the Government of Kerala has also to be included in the ninth schedule. That is, the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Reservation of seats in Educational Institutions and of appointments or posts in the Services of the State) Act of 1993 should also be included in the Ninth Schedule....

This might be classified as an "abusive, illiterate, non-issue-focused flame" but why hasn't anyone taken a hit out on Jayalalitha yet?

This might be classified as an "abusive, illiterate, non-issue-focused flame" but why hasn't anyone taken a hit out on Jayalalitha yet?

Jaya AMMA can absorb all the bullets u got.... bring it ON!!

Before I abandon all my pacifist principles and shower her with ammo, I have one teensy request -

Do I get to give away her shoe collection first? For the local TN peeps ofcourse.

Feroze Gandhi's family has a long history in Allahabad.

Quotas based on race don't help uplift the massess but they do help reduce conflict between various groups.

now, this is exactly the statement (in the reverse direction) that contributed to the 5k odd years(or 2k or 1k years whatever you like) of oppression. you know very well aptech/niit route (or mca) hardly has anywhere near as many opportunities as an engineering degree. neither does a bsc--unless you get extremely lucky.

@ggk, #154,

i only said you don't have as much opportunities. and it is also not abt iits here, it was a comment with reference to some of punniyan's friends he brought up.

GGK,

Here something for Feroze Gandhi. Some more. An article from Hindu newspaper.

He was one of the most brilliant Parliamentarian in India, known for Mundhra scandal. I was myself reading on him last evening. Shiva, both of my parents spent a lot of time getting educated in Allahabad (BScs, MScs, PhDs) - they talked about him often.

He was one of the most brilliant Parliamentarian in India, known for Mundhra scandal.

That sounds neat !! Then the next logical step would be to introduce reservations in the course of your career growth as well, 50 % of all managers, 60% of all Directorsetc in company should be from the reserved category, all promotions should be caste based and there should be an independent government appointed body to enforce this rule.

The hysterical upper-caste/NRI blogosphere is frightened to death of the next "logical" step, which would be their complete and utter marginalization. Hopefully, that wont happen. Sensible AA private sector proposals should focus on *transition points* - viz., entry into a new job, and/or educational facilities. It should also include positive discrimination in favor of businesses owned by depressed communities. Otherwise all of India may wind up with the Tamil Nadu scenario, which I am sure no one wants.

Oh well, I will just send my kids back to Kerala, get the non creamy layer certificate and tell them that they are OBCs and require special handouts. I can sleep peacefully at night anyways knowing that this has been a tried and tested formula that has worked well for the past 60 years and there arent any more farmers committing suicides and all the adivasis are jumping with joy knowing that IITs/IIMs have reservations for them.

Oh I don't know if you want to do that. I hear the Kerala OBC category is no walk in the park. The rest of the paragraph is just an irrelevant rant. No one I know is suggesting that reservations are the panacea for all of India's ills.

The hysterical upper-caste/NRI blogosphere is frightened to death of the next "logical" step, which would be their complete and utter marginalization. Hopefully, that wont happen. Sensible AA private sector proposals should focus on *transition points* - viz., entry into a new job, and/or educational facilities. It should also include positive discrimination in favor of businesses owned by depressed communities. Otherwise all of India may wind up with the Tamil Nadu scenario, which I am sure no on

Ponniyin Selvan,

From public domain, this is the best data I could get for JEE exams and socio-economic class. The source is The Tribune, Chandigarh.

Till some years ago, entry to various professional courses used to be on the basis of marks secured in university examinations. The main feature of this system was that it allowed even the poorest of the poor admission to professional courses by virtue of his merit. On an average, 60 per cent of the students who got admission to professional colleges came from middle class families, 20 per cent from the rural areas, 10 per cent from the lower income groups and 10 per cent from the upper strata of society.

Hope it answers your question. The data is dated (2001) though. Maybe, someone could bring a newer study regarding JEE.

Dharma Rani -
No, I am not an alias for Razib.
Even If I am, that doesn't lessen the thrust of my accusation against those dastardly compatriots of yours. Those insidious people up north should get on planes, trains and automobiles [RIP John Candy] to head back to their ancestral home/s, forthwith.
That is, if they have an iota of decency left.
Alternately, the least they can do is spare us their [we are so much better than the rest of the world] lectures.
Really!

Note: Comment 160 is from a letter to Editor to Tribune. I am not sure about the veracity of the data.

I challenge the concerned jokers to go ahead with 50% Reservation for not only students but also for teaching staff. Its better that Government builds one more IIT and IIM and call them RIIT and RIIM (R stands for you know what) and let others live in peace and maintain their standards. RIIT and RIIM may be put under AICTE for added glory. It will be wiser for the government to offer the best of education from primary education and make them face the world rather than give them feel of artificial security by reservation.

Naam Arjun Raknewala sab Yudh nahi jeeet saktein
aur IIT IIM koi Kurushetra bi nahi hein
Na is Arjun ke paas koi Krishn bhi hai
Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya Sathuskratham
Dharma samsdha banarthaya sambavami yuge yuge
Tora Tora Tora

Kush:

As you said, this is a letter to the editor in a Chandigarh newspaper and I believe it talks about the Entrance examinations of Haryana / Punjab / Chandigarh (??).. different from the IIT-JEE.

Ponniyin,

I read the letter carefully again (Comment 160). I agree with author's point that at least JEE course syllabus should be totally compatible with +2 exam course-work of most of the boards in India. This might remove the need for expensive coaching class at least. There is lot of room for improvement to make the playing level if one looks carefully.

The numbers I gave above in the comment are from pre-JEE elite University days. In fact, letter points out some serious consequences of exams that require too much "prep-work". No doubt. Apologies for mis-stating them in my earlier comment.

Universities like Roorkee (now IIT) have had entrance exams from almost 60-70 years or even earlier. BITS (Pilani) uses a complex normalized (from state to state and different boards) formula based on marks in +2 level exams, or used to for admissions. BITS, Pilani is comparable to IITs. IISc (Bangalore) has a Physics, Chemistry, Math extrance exam.

I am sure UGC (University Grants Commission), India has the data to your original question. Some SMer might dig them up.

Ponniyin,

You are right. It might have nothing to do with IIT-JEE because the person uses the term JET. Sorry.

i don't want to focus on this, but since the discussion has almost ended, an off topic remark from me will follow.

I read the letter carefully again (Comment 160). I agree with author's point that at least JEE course syllabus should be totally compatible with +2 exam course-work of most of the boards in India.

technically it is. nothing asked in the jee is on a topic different from +2 course work. but one should realize that often, +2 coursework based questions in board exams (in karnataka for sure, i think it is no differnet anywhere else--please correct me if i am wrong) are *exact* replicas of questions/practice assignments students are taught in class. the jee just does not do that, instead you are required to understand most of the material more.

but this is my opinion---before you flame me, let me also point out that the math olympiad in india, and the international one are based on high school math. i can safely bet that most people on this thread, [definitely myself even if i am wrong abt others] even those with graduate education in math will find the exam non-trivial if not hard.

the jee is not nearly that deep, but it just asks for more than mere rote memory. if you want to do the jee by rote you can, i am sure there are coaching institutes that attempt exactly that. those defeat the purpose of the exam. but it is also fair to say that at least half (i would say more, but i am being conservative here) of the students largely don't do it the rote way.

it would be a shame to say that an exam into which so much thought goes into should emulate "cut and paste and finish setting the paper in 15 min" type exams. my 2c.

I know this conversation is over, and everyone will prob have moved on to Norah Jones and her issues with 'little willies' by now...and not that anyone except me cares, but in a gratuitous display of selfishness i will say that now i know why the issue troubled me...

it has to do with what dude said earlier, and the whole framework of the discussion and the terms in which this was being said. the words 'backward castes' themselves being applied to a group of people shows how deeply entrenched racial discrimination is within our own mindset (maybe this accounts for lower levels of vocal protests in our own community against racism towards indians vs within other communities such as african-americans).
people just seem to think its no
rmal. sure, gandhi loved them, and he gave them a new name, and they've been given some reservations in a cynical vote-buying ploy carried out by politicians. most people seem to have been saying, this is enough. let's stop focussing on the backward castes.

saying historically-discriminate peoples instead of something like 'backward caste' is NOT a PC cop-out, its acknowledging that the labels we give people have an influence on how we treat them. Someone calling a Chinese person a Ching-chong Chinaman will definitely treat them differently to someone calling them Asian-American.

is this really enough to help get rid of discrimination? no-one's going to erase it completely, and obviously the caste system will always remain a salient part of the indian psyche. but i'm just speaking from personal experience as someone who has never even had a caste (im indian christian). i didn't even know that people cared about it until some day someone told me that i was probably outside the caste system because of my religion. when i talked to my family about this, apparently a historian in our family did a big study and found out that our ancestors were from a small group of brahmins who converted out of choice, so i could rest easy at night knowing i wasn't an untouchable. i remember at the time feeling unexplainably relieved that i wasn't from a low caste.

i can see now why this discussion has been tainted with such an invisible underlying layer of discrimination, because if even i who have had no links with it all my life could feel that it somehow makes up a part of my identity/past, people on this thread for whom caste plays a bigger (not a big, just a bigger) part in their lives could not help but be subconsciously affected by this stupid little thing that 'doesn't matter anymore' but somehow, if we admit it, still does.

Tashie:

people just seem to think its normal. sure, gandhi loved them, and he gave them a new name, and they've been given some reservations in a cynical vote-buying ploy carried out by politicians. most people seem to have been saying, this is enough. let's stop focussing on the backward castes.

Nice post. Changing the 'lables' is an important step. Speaking about that, no one now uses the name that 'Gandhi' coined. Gandhi is probably a good person, but he comes out 'casteist' and naive in a lot of aspects.. Dalits rightly kicked out the patronising label of "Harijan".

Changing the labels from backward/forward etc.. to 'historically under-privileged' is a good step. It would help in kicking out the 'creamy layer' too..

I keep hearing about 'Dalit Christians' and 'caste in Indian Christianity'. This is from the "indianchristianity" website and "reliable".. ... In practice, the Dalits remained 'Dalits' regardless of religion. A Dalit is a Dalit whether he is a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Christian. Even as members of various Christian communities, Christan Dalits suffer the same ancient segregation, oppression and unjust discrimination, the same social, educational and economic disabilities, only now at the hands of their fellow Christians of the upper castes. . Conversion into the new faith has not redeemed them from their 'dalitness', the stigma of 'Untouchablity'. Dalit and untouchable they have remained, even within the Christian communities. Among the 25 million Christians in India, 20 million are Dalits: the Dalits constitute the vast majority of the Christians .

Now look at this interesting piece..

...While Dipankar sounds the warning bell, there are many who think quality education will take a direct hit with the less worthy getting into professional institutes. But this may be succumbing to a stereotype. As Sanjay, a geologist with the National Hydro Electrical Power, says, "I was better than most of the students at IIT, Roorkee." He explains why he took recourse to reservation as a desperate measure. "You will understand when you see the community and the family I come from. With no money and my father working as a fitter, education was the only way out to fight the system," says Sanjay. Adds Venkat, an MIT graduate now working with Bose Corporation in Massachusetts. "I availed of reservation for getting in BE. Studying at a dysfunctional government school in Andhra Pradesh and ending up at MIT has been a long journey which I couldn't have travelled without the crucial break I got through reservations."..

How will NRIs be marginalized ?

A large number of NRIs are on student visas and HIB visas - they'll have to go back home and eventually raise kids there/

Here's a nice pro-reservation artricle from this morning's Outlook Magazine, How Sharad Got a Life

Ponniyan Selvan:

-I know that Dalits discarded Gandhi's children of God/'Harijan' which was seen as patronising, but it seemed like I didn't know that so all good for pointing out to me who writes unedited rants vs your well-thought out, much more grown-up comments. I still stick by 'historically discriminated peoples' vs backward castes though. After all, even if people think it sounds wanky I would rather officially be known as an Indian New or bi-cultural person than a big fat fob (except by my mates, who all know the truth ;-)).

-I also have to admit that up till now my education on Indian Christians and caste consisted of reading The God of Small Things many times over and thinking about the Dalits who converted to Christianity 'having no footprints' vs wiping away their footprints as they were forced to when Hindu. I am aware though from what was posted by you, that my fiction-based perceptions were confirmed many Indian Christians are from low castes and still suffer the discrimination which I have never had to face because I grew up in an urban setting and was lucky enough to not get treated like shit.

-Like dharma girl and others who have stated above, reservations are NOT an insult to a person's natural abilities but as ACKNOWLEDGING the historical injustices that have created to their current discriminatory circusmtances ie most of them are poor and are without the means to gain a university education. the virtual guarantee of employment from people graduationg from these institututes means that these reservations are not wasted resources and will have a direct impact on people who have suffered caste discrimination, most of whom remain poor.

-if people cheat the system so cleverly by manipulating their 'race' people could also equally manipulate their official economic status through clever accountancy, putting their income in trusts etc.

-i really think that with methods like affirmative action you cannot ask the dominant group in society whether it works. that's kind of like asking the person who got to start the race two minutes early-'so, how come the other guy lost?'

-neither can you point out to a few exceptions of rich people from a disadvantaged group and poor people from a rich group and distort the
perspective with which you view their communities.

Reservation != Affirmative Action. Please.

saying historically-discriminate peoples instead of something like 'backward caste' is NOT a PC cop-out, its acknowledging that the labels we give people have an influence on how we treat them.

It would be nice to change that particular label, but don't expect too much from it - generally when a low-status label is changed in an attempt to alter the general thinking, much of the old stigma merely attaches itself to the new label after a time. Although you probably get some dilution after a few label switches.

(I had an example here of the progression of labels for what are now called "mentally challenged" people, but the comment submission program thought I was insulting all of you!)

...While Dipankar sounds the warning bell, there are many who think quality education will take a direct hit with the less worthy getting into professional institutes. But this may be succumbing to a stereotype.

But overall it will only keep generating these poster boy/girl examples of the backward classes who made it; whereas the impact on the majority is still low.

According to the Dean of IIT Kharagpur, quoted in the Outlook article, only 5/700 or so failed out of that IIT. The impact of IITS and other elite institutions upon ALL of India is negligible. Even the so-called dwija castes have very high numbers in poverty and are victims of illiteracy. We are talking about a Third World country with a per capita GDP of 3400.

Unless the massive shortage of education infrastructure is itself addressed (starting from the primary level), no significant upliftment can be achieved.

This is true

These kinda schemes are mainly political gimmicks, easy way outs for vote-gathering.

Politicians are elected by the people. Don't blame the politicians, blame the people.

Hate to beat what may be a dead horse... but it's a shame that with the reservation system, there doesn't seem to be any sort of post-admission support structure to help the applicable students actually succeed. (Or am I wrong?)

It's like, you're recognizing that these students had to struggle with daily survival/discrimination along with the intense studying needed to get in... but once they're in, it's like, "OK, good luck!"

In the USA most universities have Native American, African American, etc. offices to support those populations... some are pretty effective with having workshops and other things to actually help their groups develop *life management skills*, *emotional resilience*, or *when the man sticks it to you, stick it to him* and *you're not alone" support groups and that other soft stuff -- which address the more subtle things which can affect how well your intelligence is expressed.

Primary education for all is a big answer, but not the only one...

@173, tashie
yes, using backward is not a good idea---people use it in india anyway not because even social workers, and the relevant castes themselves use it. even the govt uses it. it does not have the sting that it may have for you since in most cases, people do not use english too often. local languages do not necessarily use "backward".

but to be fair, it is also not used in the context of dalits or the adivasis or some others who bore the brunt of discrimination. they are listed as scheduled castes/tribes (sc/st)---scheduled because they are listed in some schedule of the constitution.

@everyone
i am not making any points below, but i would like to remind people of some aspects of this discussion:

while i know some on this board argue for economics based reservations, there is *NO real debate* in india abt this. reservations are caste-based now, and will remain that way. more so, there is also *NO real debate* in india abt dismantling reservations.

the debate in india is mainly abt having 50% reservations or 70% (the iit case, it is 25 or 50). and i pointed this out several times, but seems to have been ignored---the increase will *NOT* benefit sc/sts. several of you point out the tragic and moving stories of dalits, but this increase is *NOT* intended for them at all. the reservation earmarked for them remains as it is, this is to include others in the reservation net.

this is not to say the intended recipients may not be worthy---simply that the examples many of you quote (thx for digging them up though) are not relevant for the points you intend to make. it is a growing concern among some dalit leaders in india today that dalit sc/sts are marginalized from this ambiguity. if others quote dalit troubles to obtain sops for themselves, guess who is still stuck at the bottom? dalit-sc/st reservation levels will hardly change significantly from '47 (25% today), while the overall reservation has increased to 70% in tn, and intended to be that in the mandal recommendations.

and again, it is a misconception that:

-neither can you point out to a few exceptions of rich people from a disadvantaged group and poor people from a rich group and distort the
perspective with which you view their communities.

once agin, the point i am making is that it is not "rich/poor" issue. forward castes have an educational advantage since they have never been discriminated against. dalits, sc/sts are usually very very poor, but it gets more murky when you compare obcs (who this reservation increase is intended for) and non-obcs. some obc communities are poor, and some are not. you are right in assuming is that community wise you will not find non-obc castes at the bottom of the poverty table, but neither will you find them at the top. i am not talking abt a few in each community here, rather a community average.

you are right in not believing me, but you are wrong in assuming it is a "rich vs poor" debate as you have insisted all along (you say caste reservation and rich-poor reservations differ on a technicality). for the sake of argument again, if you change it to economic criteria (which does not have much support in india) a significant number of the castes which would benefit from the reservation increase intended will drop out.

Hate to beat what may be a dead horse... but it's a shame that with the reservation system, there doesn't seem to be any sort of post-admission support structure to help the applicable students actually succeed. (Or am I wrong?)

you are right for the most part. some institutions (iits included) do have a "support" structure, but no one is required to have one, and most do not. even the iit support structure is skeletal, it just includes certain extra previlages. there is no counseling etc as far as i know.

we all seem to have missed this: (from outlook)

But a crucial point has been overlooked. Should the OBC quota be implemented, then it would be mandatory for professional institutes like the IITs and IIMs and centrally-aided universities to up the number of seats. The government is clear on this. In fact, IIT Kharagpur has already decided to add 200 seats from next year. The rest of the IITs haven't spelt out their future course of action but are expected to follow suit.

the magazine does not address if the seats open for competition remain the same or not. 200 in iit kgp is not sufficient information to decide this though (200 for btech/mtech together? just entrance exam seats?).

however, i doubt there would have been 181 comments if we knew the answer to the question above. :)

Anyways, I would really like somebody to explain this concept of reservations to me and where is it going to end.

When people stop asking for a boy from a suitable subcaste on shaadi.com? Never maybe?

Yeah, whats all that about punjabi khatri only or maratha only contact. WTF. This is america. Maybe they should start americanshadi.com. :)

A combination of "reservations" and "unemployment insurance" will be a win-win proposition for all.

There are two kinds of equality. Equality of means and equality of end . Reservation in educational institutions allows for equality of means . They are a means by which the underpriveleged can think of a life of dignity.Education is a means of learning to fish so that the person can fish for a lifetime .IIT and IIM are government funded institutes. It is the Government's job to bring the ordinary man in the mainstream.

Along with these measures with private funding why not set up private institutes of high calibre which will increase the number of seats available to all students . Or explore other means of increasing the number of students who have access to higher education . I am refering to education over internet,satellite.
Why fight over a small loaf of bread ? And why not direct one's energy to baking a bigger bread?

@106:Ponniyin Selvan

I had not taken any coaching whatsoever. Infact, I was not even preparing for entrace as I was underage for IIT (the cut-off was 17 years and I was just 15 years). I decided that I will study for two years and then go to IIT. I gave Roorkee CEE (which is at par with IIT-JEE in difficulty and format, Roorkee has become IIT since 2001) just for fun and scored 652 all india rank. I was surprised too. I am from UP Board and Hindi Medium and not from a rich background. My mom is a teacher in a government school.

You can debate on CEE vs JEE here. But ranks are almost similar across these two exams. Also, while JEE is known for its difficult Physics, CEE was known for its difficult Maths.

BTW, I know various IITians who never took coaching. I must also say that having educated parents did help (though none are from elite schools and not engineers or doctors - but they understand the importance of education).

I'm for reservations for temporary short term solution, but the basis has to be economic backwardness. I would have gotten one in that case too. But I probably didn't need it. I finished my bachelors and joined my first job at the age of 18.

(Posting here because the comments on the latest thread are closed)

Abhi,

I went back and re-read what you wrote...

>>The underlying argument in support of affirmative action in India, as well as in this country, is that ...injustices of past...

So you were just quoting. Somehow I mistook that this is in fact your position. Sorry about that.

Going back to the topic...

I think with this issue, India is at a pivotal point in history. A piece of legislation is being shoved in without any debate, and the people backing the legislation have little more than the next election in their sights. Competitive populism has known to bring down civilisations in the past, and India won't be an exception to the laws of nature.

If this goes through, in a few years (if Congress wins the next general elections), the entire reservation system will be made applicable to the private sector. Initially they will bring it "only for companies who have more than 1000 workers" - thus brining the large business houses under it. Wipro's Premji will have to not only hire based on quotas, but he will have to hand out work based on quotas as well. So he will have to assign a certain %age of US projects to OBC's, certain %age of European projects to SC's, so on and so forth. If the company has twelve directors on its board, ten would have to be in the reservation category. If Narayanamurthy cannot find ten, then he will be forced to sell his shares in the open market, and the government will provide funds to Dalit organisations to buy the shares and come on board. I am not kidding about this - this will happen.

In another few years, they will gradually reduce the company size, so even a company with twenty employees will come under the law. If a producer makes a movie, he will get a visit from the government employee verifying that he is adhering to quotas. If he made the last movie with an upper-caste hero, he will be forced to make the next one with a lower-caste hero. If he cannot find one, the government will assign him one. Again, I am not kidding around with a slippery slope argument. This will happen.

If the agitators give up, barring any stroke of luck (like discovery of large oil reserves in India etc), you may as well write off India within the next thirty-forty years. It will become a conglomeration of Rwandas and Burundis, with people hacking each other off on the streets.

M. Nam

If the agitators give up, barring any stroke of luck (like discovery of large oil reserves in India etc), you may as well write off India within the next thirty-forty years. It will become a conglomeration of Rwandas and Burundis, with people hacking each other off on the streets.

Well.. no need to worry on that front, The southern states have used reservations for decades and are among the top growing states..

So you have talked about the problems.. what's your solution to all this.. Do you support "inter-caste marriages" , so that "caste" as a discriminator really becomes a thing of the past in future generations..??