haha, love the sneaky ways in which people define their 'heritage'. watch the bbc doco 'motherland' and laugh at this black dude who spends his whole time in london just bitchin' about 'africa and slavery man', finds out his exact tribe, and then travels to africa only to find out that his 'warrior name' means slave trader and that 'his tribe' were middlemen who sold their own kind to european colonists.

on one hand, i can see where people who disagree with race-based affirmative action are coming from. they want to address inequalities too, but on the principle of economic needs which is the whole point of affirmative action anyway. and there are some who cheat the system...

from the outside its mainly just a symbolic debate, but from the other side those who support race-based funding see it as an acknowledgment of the strong correlation between raced and social status for the worst-off in society, who were usually previously indigenous people/slaves.

its all v troubling. on one hand we need to acknowledge historical injustices, on the other hand we need to be practical. then i think of people like my friend jamie, who is the first person in her family to go to university, to not be on permanent welfare or in a low paid job, and to go do a double law and arts degree at that. and all of this through a special race-based scholarship which pays for all of her fees.

however, even someone who supports race-based funding agrees that 49% in IIT is crazy. the aim is to move towards equality NOT an inverted hierarchy, which is just as bad.

Are the people in Bangalore insane?

haa haa haa, here,it is cow tipping, there, it is car tipping... i'm surprised no one burned a local bus and a petrol stations for good measure... i thought they always did em in three's.

Rajkumar has an effect on people and yes, he is deemed to be the "voice" of kannadigas.
He is much revered ... But when will these people realize that burning buses and throwing stones will not bring him back...hey! it's the tax payers money...Aughhhh

Someone did try to burn a petrol station and would have succeeded - if only it wasn't for those meddlesome policemen.

A crowd attempted to set on fire a petrol pump, but timely intervention of police prevented a major fire mishap, police said.

The DNA testing thing is rife with possibilities of legal misuse. Do you think American juries, when they sense an entitlement, back down from awarding the plaintiff (over common sense). Remember the first Vioxx trial ? More on it here.

i always used to be, well still am, amazed at WHY they like to flip cars and burn public buses, which i am sure some would need to have taken home. stoning gov. cars, ok, i sor tof understand, well, i gues si understand stonign any car, but public transportation.. well, thats a mystery... the petrol station, i guess at some point ther eis an explosion as the fire gets tothe tanks, and maybe people like watching big huge fireballs...

but in this instance,why they went and ruined the guys lawn and clashed with cops, where there were injuries is baffling...

i have two posts on the topic, here and here.

In contrast, race-based affirmative action is incredibly imprecise, clubbing wealthy minorities in with the poor and casting a pall of suspicion on all those who made it on merit.

Thats exactly what the MandalII proposal is. Its a RACE BASED classification. A lot of Indians dont admit (or dont know) that 'Caste' is the same thing as 'Race'. Indian constitution originally wanted to abolish Caste based quota in a few years after independance. In a shamefully pandering way Indian politicians keep continuing the "Caste/Race based Quota" system.

I like how "Ashley Klett’s younger sister" is ignorant enough to think she will gain an edge by marking the Asian box. Forget about having a negligable impact--she will easily harm her chances. It's ignorance like this that makes the general public think that Asian (and, by association, Indian) Americans BENEFIT from racial preferences.

think minority - become minority. It is a (negative) state of mind.

The bloggers at Sepiamutiny while religiously, and regionally diverse are all from what are defined by the government of India as 'forward communities'.

This would more or less be the make up of educational institutions without a caste based quota.

70% of Indians belong to 'backward communities' (scheduled castes/scheduled tribes/OBCs as defined by the govt of india), a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.

The trick is to stike the right balance between the allocative efficiancy of merit based entrance and the conflict lowering effect of reservations.

The reservation is not necessarily a bad idea:

1) The OBC category will have extremely competent students, who are just a hair below the open category students. We are not talking about a massive handout here.

2) The elite institutions, more than others, should strive to represent India, and not just the upper castes. I would think that for management in particular, it is a good idea to interact with students who represent the cultural landscape - and not just one portion of it.

3) With such a high rate of reservation, the so-called quota students will have a large presence on campus. They will not so easily be ostracized (as the Dalits have been in the past). Many will surprise the naysayers and admirably succeed.

4) MNC employers will still be able to distinguish students based on their performance at the IITs. The proposal seems to call for doubling the open category seats in any case - so the same number of people who would have gotten in in the past will still get in. The cream - of whatever caste - will rise to the top.

BEAH,

Whether you get to blog on SM is a function of your financial stability (having a computer/internet) than your caste. Having reservations based on so-called backward caste and not for economically backward students is just as injust. Many urban "dalits" are on par and surpass others, at least economically. Although, reservations are needed, they should be based on income/access to primary education/representation in society. It surprised me to see that colleges have "payment/donation seats for OBS/SC/ST".

It would be helpful if you back up your 70% number theory.

it is not a question of just caste, dalit and brahmin.

There are lots of poor people who are from foreward castes. Just as there are a lot of rich people who are from backward ones.

This is a really complex area. I agree to one thing - that it is going to be difficult to reverse centuries of social injustice in a few decades. However alongside the quota system we also need to create wealth and jobs for all the people of the Union of India.

What we need is a non-Congressi government who are going to take bold steps on craeting a strong domestic private sector, increasing competition and using clever protectionist capitalism to lift individuals out of poverty.

minority/ majority mentality, minority/ majority appeasement and caste based politics and social system is one of the rots that holds India back.

The bloggers at Sepiamutiny while religiously, and regionally diverse are all from what are defined by the government of India as 'forward communities'.

To supplement what Hammer Sickel wrote, the issue of caste isn't really relevant in the case of Indians living in the West. One's caste is a non-issue here with regards to income, future financial prospects, educational background etc.

Jai:

>>>> To supplement what Hammer Sickel wrote, the issue of caste isn't really relevant in the case of Indians living in the West. One's caste is a non-issue here with regards to income, future financial prospects, educational background etc

- It is not an issue because those holding the caste tag don't make it an issue. But it is an issue in India for the simple reason people hold the caste tag and don't realize the have thae ability to move on esp my moving out of the villages they live and go elsewhere to start a new life.

Ok, I know, eaiser said than done.

To supplement what Hammer Sickel wrote, the issue of caste isn't really relevant in the case of Indians living in the West.

It doesn't seem that way if reads the comments at SM regularly. 70-80% of SM readership is western-based.

I never seen "emotional ownership" of caste and religion ever among Indians than what I see on SM, not even in the motherland.

It is quite possible that only a certain section of people are more inclined to comment. Maybe. Often, in motherland, there is an unwritten rule that one never asks somebody's caste/ religion nor open declares theirs (except the thakurs in Bollywood phillums). You can run into serious problems doing so.

So, Jai, I would say the opposite to your observation.

"I never seen "emotional ownership" of caste and religion ever among Indians than what I see on SM, not even in the motherland."

Kush, as a western born desi, I had no concept of caste growing up. Thus, I'm not even 100% sure what caste I am (seems like a complex system), and it never came up in family conversations... well only once as a child when conversing about India, and naturally I asked.... needless to say the response didn't mean very much without a proper context. Maybe this is why you see so little acknowledgement of it here on SM.

However, posts like these do put in perspective the problems with the caste system in India. I do appreciate this.

Often, in motherland, there is an unwritten rule that one never asks somebody's caste/ religion nor open declares theirs (except the thakurs in Bollywood phillums).

And it is not something that people would not discuss with others.
Often it begins with ooh i am a khatri from place x...then so

And RC you are wrong on caste as being race based.
Look at kumaon pundit and a kashmiri pundit and a south indian pundit
A kumaoun pundit has more in common with the rest of kumaon resident.
They have significant 'pahari' ancestors and it looks so,
A lot of them have asian features(eyes, sinewy build etc).
A kashmiri pundit looks more similar to a kashmiri non pundit.
same goes for south indian pundits(i know about some claims that they are aryans
and are lighter skinned than other south indians etc, but i dont buy that
cause you can see the variability in skin complexion allover india and often
in the same family.)

GGK,
I will have to agree with Kush . It is considered uncouth to discuss one's caste in most cities and big towns. I think (do not knwo this for a fact) caste is discussed openly in the smaller towns and villages.

My issue with the current reservation system is that it benefits the same people whose parents and possibly grandparents have taken already advantage of these reservations. We should restrict these benefits to only one generation and (I know this is difficult to implement) make sure others who are really backward get to take advantage of these programs. Curently a small minority ( I do not have any links for this ) benefit a lot and sometimes at the expense of a FC candidate who is otherwise poor.

Irrespective of what one feels , I think we can all agree that reform is needed at the structural level not just increase reservation "quotas".

Metric Ang,

You are probably misundertanding my point:

a) The problem of caste system is very deep and pernicious still in India, even today. It very easily translates to economic opportunities. Often people change their surnames to "Singh" even if they are not Sikhs/ Rajputs/ Thakurs so that they can seemingly become caste-neutral to the society. I know people who have dropped their surnames, like Kamal Nath Gupta becomes Kamal Nath.

b) However, for reasons that it can be very sensitive, people do not put their caste and religion on their sleeve in India in public discourse. I also know that using their identifier in public is on rise in India as opposed to 80s-90s. I think expats do more so, as a tenous connection/ entitlement to motherland. Look around for Gujarati Society, Brahmin Samati, etc. in North America. They are toothless (or harmless) in the bigger scheme of things in North America or West and in principle they may have some postives too - but it is more explicit among expats and PIO (People of Indian Origin).

c) Often, I see comments here, like somebody who would say, I am a Punjabi Khattri or Shaiv Hindu, etc. in their discussion as their distinct identifiers. I must repeat there is nothing wrong with that. However, back in India, you would never bring this on the table beacuse you are sensitive to other's caste, religion and affiliations during the discussion. Maybe, it is only a facade in India, but it is there. I have denied the real problem beneath the rug.

Correction: I have not denied the real problem beneath the rug.

I will have to agree with Kush . It is considered uncouth to discuss one's caste in most cities and big towns. I think (do not knwo this for a fact) caste is discussed openly in the smaller towns and village

Look around for Gujarati Society

Again the point is not to pooh pooh some one for associating in a caste/region/religion based organization.

HA! Half the time when i had this discussion its the urban semisophisticate who asks me these questions to me on my flights to india

OK. I think we move in different circles.

And there is nothing wrong with any one asking that. I dont think any one considers it uncouth or offensive

I think it might differ regionally. I grew up in the south and among friends this was never a topic of conversation. It was to be avoided at all costs (more so than religion). I don't even think it is facade as Kush puts it. We always thought caste was something your parents discussed not urban semisophisticates like us.

Also, I consider it ironic that the sepia crowd who is always asking "who am I? " considers adding caste to one's name harmless.

Often, in motherland, there is an unwritten rule that one never asks somebody's caste/ religion nor open declares theirs (except the thakurs in Bollywood phillums).

Nope its quite to the contrary. Each caste is proud of its ancestory/customs etc and even without asking they will often disclose it to you.

I agree with Kush on this one. Thats what my experience has been. I feel it would be rude to do so.

And RC you are wrong on caste as being race based.

Kush - Most Indians don't ask about caste because they probably don't need to. One can generally tell by the family name exactly which jati a person belongs to. Kids are generally not interested in caste issues, but it means a lot to the older generations on account of the culture that goes with it. Generally speaking, in India, people pretty much derive their identity from their caste and ethnicity. In fact, even on this board you find people refer to themselves as gujus, mallus, and bongs - not exactly caste but the closest thing (and the equivalent of caste under the circumstances) for second genners.

Caste is just about the most misunderstood thing about India. No question there are terrible atrocities associated with it, but there is much that is good about it. It is generally represented as something exclusionary, but actually it is much more a "belonging to" (Manu Smriti notwithstanding). Only in the last few years have people begun to take notice and to do a serious study of the system, rather than the constant knee-jerk maligning. Here's one report from a study by the World Bank.

“Since 1985,” says the World Bank’s World Development Report, “Tirupur has become a hotbed of economic activity in the production of knitted garments. By the 1990s, with high growth rates of exports, Tirupur was a world leader in the knitted garment industry. The success of this industry is striking. This is particularly so as the production of knitted garments is capital-intensive, and the state banking monopoly had been ineffective at targeting capital funds to efficient entrepreneurs, especially at the levels necessary to sustain Tirupur’s high growth rates.”

“What is behind this story of development? The needed capital was raised within the Gounder community, a caste relegated to land-based activities, relying on community and family network. Those with capital in the Gounder community transfer it to others in the community through long-established informal credit institutions and rotating savings and credit associations. These networks were viewed as more reliable in transmitting information and enforcing contracts than the banking and legal systems that offered weak protection of creditor rights.”

"The amount of networking and contract enforcement mechanisms available with caste institutions has not been fully studied, despite the striking success of Tirupur. The same is true of the Nadar community in Virudhunagar area entrenched in the matches and printing industries. On the other hand, large amounts of literature are available on Marwaris, Sindhis, Katchis, Patels, etc, and the global networks they have created. But the point that is often still missed is that, in a financial sense, caste provides the edge in risk taking, since failure is recognised, condoned, and sometimes even encouraged by the caste group."

http://newsinsight.net/columns/full_column22.htm

The quota system is very divisive and can only have negative results in the long run. It would be best to work out some form of need-based initiative.

Being a troll these days is so much fun

It’s a microcosm of the American national character, both high tech and shameless

BEAH:

70% of Indians belong to 'backward communities' (scheduled castes/scheduled tribes/OBCs as defined by the govt of india), a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.

This is SPOT ON and what people must understand before bemoaning the "dilution of merit," in IITS and IIMs.

In fact, even on this board you find people refer to themselves as gujus, mallus, and bongs - not exactly caste but the closest thing (and the equivalent of caste under the circumstances) for second genners.

It is not surprising that the blog-o-sphere is totally pissed off about the reservations. However, it should be noted that the blog-o-sphere is filled with people from priviledged sections (people who toasted the lower end of the society for more than three thousand years). What do you expect from them? They will whine because they will be losing the monopoly they enjoy on education, jobs, etc. Trying to portray as if there is widespread condemnation regarding reservations is wrong because most of the bloggers and journalists in India ARE NOT from under priviledged sections and you will only hear criticism about reservations. I am not surprised by the reaction by priviledged sections against reservations. It is similar to the reaction against affirmative action by certain sections of whites. The only difference is that the same people who oppose reservations in India (as it is suitable for them) are the one who support affirmative actions too. In a single sentence, I can sum up the attitude of desis. Desis, liberals abroad and conservative at home.

BTW, if someone is interested, there is a paper in civil rights journal about how Indian reservation system is better than the affirmative action system in US. You can check it out at

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HSP/is_1_4/ai_66678565

the dalits are against any reservations or obcs, scheduled castes etc.

should read: the dalits are against any reservations for obcs, scheduled castes etc.

Also, I consider it ironic that the sepia crowd who is always asking "who am I? " considers adding caste to one's name harmless

70% of Indians belong to 'backward communities' (scheduled castes/scheduled tribes/OBCs as defined by the govt of india), a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.

This is NOT TRUE. In North Indian states the percentage of SC/ST/OBC is about 30-35%. In south India its reverse.

a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.

This is NOT TRUE. In North Indian states the percentage of SC/ST/OBC is about 30-35%. In south India its reverse.

Oh no? The percentage of dwijas (brahmins, ksatriyas, baniyas) is approx.15% India-wide (5% perhaps in South India) The percentage of scheduled castes and tribes 25%; the remainder OBCs and MBCs. I do agree that the OBC category needs to be reconsidered because there are many powerful castes (like Nairs, Gounders) on the list who don't deserve reservations. We'll see how it plays out.

Here are atanu deys post on education and reservation matters [link1] [link2]
To me increasing access to education is the only situation and i see a slow march towards it.

I am not too sure of how relevant the issue of caste is atleast amongst everyday youth in the cities. Personally i have never encountered any situation when we meet new people and caste was a part of the introductions. Unless it is obvious, the questions would most likely be something like are you a gujju, mallu, bong etc. Anyways in a city like Bombay where you are all herded like cattle in crowded trains or buses it is just impossible to discriminate on the basis of caste. While i am not denying that if you scratch the surface, there would be a certain affinity to your caste (or community), but discrimination on the basis of caste in cities is almost non existent.

Also when it comes to OBCs, the situation becomes all the more complex, as an OBC in one state can fall under the general category in other and vice versa. There is bitter resentment amongst the SC/STs over reservations to OBCs as well. And in many places the OBC community are far well off in every aspect of social life (like the Yadavs).

The first time I became caste aware was while standing in line for collecting admission forms for engineering colleges. That was when i realised that two of my friends (who were more well off than me, and had scored the same percentage of marks) were OBCs !! The general category queue had around 3000 people, while the reserved category queue had about a couple of hundred. There was a mini riot situation in the general category queue with people pushing and shoving and it took nearly 6 hours before i finally managed to get my form, whereas the reserved category window was totally empty by noon. And needless to say, my friends got admission to better colleges whereas I had to be content with a second tier college.

I think everybody agrees that moves like these, just before elections are nothing but votebank politics and at best an attempt to treat the symptoms rather than the disease.

I do agree that the OBC category needs to be reconsidered because there are many powerful castes

Practically speaking, it will be almost impossible to remove anybody from OBC category (and there are still so many trying to get in), *especially* the powerful castes; no politician will dare to enforce it.

Oh no? The percentage of dwijas (brahmins, ksatriyas, baniyas) is approx.15% India-wide (5% perhaps in South India) The percentage of scheduled castes and tribes 25%; the remainder OBCs and MBCs

Not true again. General population in Gujarat is close to 65% (rest is SC/ST/OBC). The highest percentage population of Schedule Tribe population is in Madhya Pradesh state.

I've been asked by people in the West what my 'title' is - generally first-genners, though. When travelling in India, I was also asked repeatedly what my 'title' was. Got to be a caste-laden term. Incidentally, villagers also often asked me my name, but this seemed more designed to find out if I was Muslim or Hindu.

I read somewhere that there was a study of a big slum in Kolkata where they found half the people were Brahmins. There's dirt-poor Brahmins all over the place. What about the guys pulling rickshaws who have their sacred threads on? Who's helping them?

This reminds me of the 'designated group' category the Canadian government has - visible minorities, women, disabled people etc. I've wondered aloud why there isn't a 'white trash' category, because it seems to me that white trash is the most neglected, underprivileged group around. Meanwhile, rich well-educated Indo-Canadians are oppressed and need help.

I never knew this until a few days back. But apparently i am an OBC in Kerala, but not in Maharasthra.

Anyways, I would really like somebody to explain this concept of reservations to me and where is it going to end. Shouldnt more focus be on reaching out to the truly under privileged and making sure everybody has access to primary and secondary education so that the playing field is levelled. I am not sure how much money or resources are needed to prepare for the IIT/IIM examinations. In JEE or CAT a student is just a roll number. A roll number has no caste or creed. Thats the way the things should be. The bulk of the OBC students that I have studied with, were no different from the general category. And even though i havent been in an IIT or IIM, i have heard from a lot of friends that candidates who come in through the quota system cannot cope up with the immense pressure and eventually drop out (This is purely anecdotal, i think IIT alumni here can throw more light on this).

And so the question is, where does this end ?? What if they dont get jobs after graduating ?? In the course of creating a casteless society, employers coming in to IITs/IIMs will have to ask candidates what their caste is. What then ?? Introduce reservations in the private sector as well ??

RC:

http://tinyurl.com/kbfkq

I've been asked by people in the West what my 'title' is - generally first-genners, though

Regarding brahmins being poor that is true in UP/Bihar. Did not know if that was the case in bengal.
Brahmins were hired as cooks in UP Bihar by well to do family.
It had to do with them having the image as being neat freaks of sort....
I dont know if that is still the case...

Not true again. General population in Gujarat is close to 65% (rest is SC/ST/OBC). The highest percentage population of Schedule Tribe population is in Madhya Pradesh state.

Not quite sure what 'title' meant either (it was asked in English) - but I think it had something to do with the old jamindari system. Anyone else know? In Bengali, from what I recollect, I was only asked what my last name was. But I was always asked, everywhere, what my last name was.

My maternal grandfather's family had a Brahmin cook. He couldn't have been too well-off - he had a large family living somewhere else too.

Hmm MP even including chattisgarh etc I would have thought NE states like arunachal/mizoram may be the lead on that. We are talking %age of population not absolute numbers right?

Actually I just realized that the data I was looking at was 1981 census when there was no Chattisgarh. I think thats why Madhya Pradesh topped. It would be a different situation now that Chattisgarh is a state. NE states and Chattisgarh now would be very close.

But I was always asked, everywhere, what my last name was.

Ms. Dharma Queen,

It could mean anything - sometimes, just to figure your state (region) of origin, religion, and/ or caste. Let's not rush to decisions.

I gave example of Singh family name - it can be a Sikh, Rajput, Thakur, and from lower castes.

Another example, Saira Chaudhury, could even be a Bengali Hindu or Bengali Muslim.

An example on SM is Vinod, one of the blogger on this portal.

It ain't that simple.

Kush, don't get persnickety. I was asking people what it meant, wasn't I?

I will rush to the following conclusion - people in India seem unusually concerned about where to 'place' you, whether that signifies placing in terms of religion, region, caste etc. And yeah, you do run into that here too, but less so.

As with the Rajkumar riots which have shut down the Emerald City of Bangalore...

As with the Rajkumar riots which have shut down the Emerald City of Bangalore...

Reason for riots:
Apparently, the government did not make proper and timely arrangements for public viewing and later cremation of the actors body (due to usual red tape etc.) - and this angered the common Kannada man a lot, for Rajkumar was a veritable god in his eyes.

Does using a word like persnickety make you persnickety !!

@#32 Krish

It is not surprising that the blog-o-sphere is totally pissed off about the reservations. However, it should be noted that the blog-o-sphere is filled with people from priviledged sections (people who toasted the lower end of the society for more than three thousand years). What do you expect from them? They will whine because they will be losing the monopoly they enjoy on education, jobs, etc.

If you look carefully, the Indian blogosphere has opinions on both sides of the issue. That is why there is a healthy debate going on, not an unidimensional rant. Additionally, many bloggers (such as myself) are against the proposed increase in reservations at IIT/IIM - not absolutely against reservation. Almost all agree (even prr-reservationist) that the present system is not perfect and the goverment really needs to mend the primary education system in Indian so that people of all, class, creed, religion etc arrive at the post-high school level with a level playing field. What you are calling 'whines' have been on the whole, reasoned debates.

"One has to look at private sector in india. no one gives a rats ass about what your caste is but if you can do the job regarding disintegration in india is not a caste based issue"

This is funny though. Priviledged class will suppress under priviledged for three thousand years. Then they will open the gates and ask them to compete against priviledged sections. They will then show the success of private sector where the priviledged sector holds a monopoly. Isn't it common sense that the level playing field is totally biased against under priviledged sections in any competition because of the suppression for more than 3000 years. Science clearly shows that some sort of affirmative action or reservations are needed to level the playing field (if anyone wants to debate on this topic, I am ready with whatever proof that is needed). Also the reservations implemented in the last 50 years or so (that too badly implemented by the government) is not enough to level the playing field. The whinings against reservations (including those bloggers quoted by many commenters) are from people who are from the privileged sections of the society or those from families that has escaped any kind of suppression. Show me one person from the bottom of the Indian caste structure who had come up and who claims that the playing field is leveled, then I will even consider the arguments against reservations. As long as it is not done, it is just the whining from those people who fear losing their monopoly in education, jobs, etc.

Let us take IITs and IIMs. The government spends several lakh rupees for each student admitted into these institutions. If you see the statistics, you will find that more than 80% of the students from these institutions are from priviledged sections of the society (don't tell me this is not true. I am from IITB and I know the statistics. In fact, I am giving a conservative estimate). Why should tax payers money help only those guys/gals from priviledged sections of the society? Why can't we change the scenario so that all sections of the society benefit from the government money?

Then there are whinings saying it will bring down the quality of students produced. I think this is the most racist comments I have heard. Why do you think that people from underprivileged sections of the society will bring the quality down? Come on, people in priviledged sections will suppress them for several thousand years and not allow them any education. We also know from scientific studies that this suppressive environment is the reason why it is difficult for them to compete on par with people from privileged sections. It is also clear that there should be some sort of an "external helping hand" for few generations in order for them to compete with the privileged sections of the society (in other words to level the playing field). Under such circumstances, the "output quality" may come down in short term. But, in a long term, it will bring equality in India and the "quality" will eventually get back to the current levels with people from all sections of the society. They are not responsible for the "bad quality". It is us (people from privileged sections and their ancestors) who messed up with their life. We cannot run away from the sins of our ancestors. Someone has to pay to bring in the equality and we better pay it now rather than continue the same tactics of our ancestors in a more sophisticated fashion. I would rather be ashamed of the inequality in the IITs and IIMs than the reduction in quality for a short term.

In US, it is a shame for educated and sensible people to make racist comments. In India, if you are educated and make shameful and racist comments, you will find support among other educated people. What a shameful state we are in!! We don't even realize that our comments and actions are shameful. I would just blame our education system which is responsible for grinding out people who cannot even think properly.

BongoPondit,

You are right. There are people who are in support of reservations. When I say about blog-o-sphere being filled with people against reservations, I simply mean that the big majority of them are against it. I used the word "whining" with a reason. I can definitely show how many people had really whined rather than debate about this issue. I am sorry if my comment has hurt people who debate rationally.

Krish - thanks for your comment. I agree that the assumption that the quality of graduates would decrease with increased reservations is shameful and elitist. The same arguments are advanced here with affirmative action quotas and they are often racist at bottom. But with caste-based reservations, isn't there a risk of excluding, say, the brahmin rickshawallah's kid?

"The whinings against reservations (including those bloggers quoted by many commenters) are from people who are from the privileged sections of the society or those from families that has escaped any kind of suppression. Show me one person from the bottom of the Indian caste structure who had come up and who claims that the playing field is leveled, then I will even consider the arguments against reservations. As long as it is not done, it is just the whining from those people who fear losing their monopoly in education, jobs, etc."

not entirely true. as said before, the dalits (the most underpriveleged) have been complaining about these reservations for obcs, scs etc. because they fear they will adversely affect them. no doubt the playing field should be levelled, but not just at or beginning at the higher level. it should be coordinated with a levelling of the playing field at the primary and secondary levels. also, how to accomodate those from the upper castes who have not been priveleged and are poor? it would be nice for the reservations to be part of a properly thought-out revamping of the entire indian education system instead of a vote-getting, caste-politics gimmick by the current govt.

Anyways, I would really like somebody to explain this concept of reservations to me and where is it going to end.

When people stop asking for a boy from a suitable subcaste on shaadi.com? Never maybe?

Shouldnt more focus be on reaching out to the truly under privileged and making sure everybody has access to primary and secondary education so that the playing field is levelled.

Sure ... in addition to reservations. We need to create emulable role models in backward caste communities, and allow them to build social capital in the short run. In the long run there is far more to do...starting with literacy.

The bulk of the OBC students that I have studied with, were no different from the general category. And even though i havent been in an IIT or IIM, i have heard from a lot of friends that candidates who come in through the quota system cannot cope up with the immense pressure and eventually drop out (This is purely anecdotal, i think IIT alumni here can throw more light on this).

So if they're just as good as you buddy, there should be no problems then! The OBC category will be far stronger than the Dalit category. BTW Nokia and other multinationals are flocking to Madras and recruiting people who came through a whopping 69% reservation system. The OBC category is brutally difficult there. McKinsey says that a higher percentage of Indian graduates are "multinational employable" than their Chinese counterparts. India has been growing at 7% right through the entire Mandal period. Elite institutions cannot, should not be upper caste bastions.

In the course of creating a casteless society, employers coming in to IITs/IIMs will have to ask candidates what their caste is. What then ?? Introduce reservations in the private sector as well ??

Why not? Dalit groups are lobbying for just this.

not entirely true. as said before, the dalits (the most underpriveleged) have been complaining about these reservations for obcs, scs etc. because they fear they will adversely affect them.

Mayavati has supported reservations for OBCs and for disadvantaged forward castes to boot. Seriously, why don't upper castes fight for this rather than try to dismantle a system which they simply don't have the votes to dismantle?

Krish:

>>>> Priviledged class will suppress under priviledged for three thousand years. Then they will open the gates and ask them to compete against priviledged sections

- Not everyone from upper casts are privillaged or rich. Not everyone from tribals or dalits are underprivillaged or poor. As a whole I agree - centuries of injustice cannot be uprooted by 5 decades of quotas.

>>>> In India, if you are educated and make shameful and racist comments, you will find support among other educated people. What a shameful state we are in!! We don't even realize that our comments and actions are shameful. I would just blame our education system which is responsible for grinding out people who cannot even think properly

- Agree. But it is not the education system but a mentality that is there in most non western nations - not just India. Although as Indians we see it more.

- It is about thinking. One guy is more than happy to be the master and the other more than happy to be the servant and that too for ever without even trying to improve the situation for the next generation.

- I firmly believe that if you really want change you can get it but you must want it. One of the problems is that this is all mixed in with mifa politicians and corrupt officials. Is it no wonder the maoists are out there?

- For change to happen not just the masters but the servants must want change themselves and help bring it about within the legal framework as individuals.

Krish Show me one person from the bottom of the Indian caste structure who had come up and who claims that the playing field is leveled...

There was this gentleman called Dr.BR Ambedkar; and then another person in recent times who is now in coma; Kanshi Ram. Chandrabhan Prasad a tireless campaigner for the rights of Dalits is against the present system of reservations and would rather have a more selective one where economic criteria are applied rigorously. LM Naik the sole Dalit member of the original Mandal Commission that in 1980 recommended rervations for the Backward Classes not Castes wrote a note of dissent objecting to many recommendations of the commission.

Read Chndrabhan Prasad here But rarely do we confront a basic question - why did L R Naik, the only Dalit member in the Mandal Commission, refuse to sign the Mandal recommendations?

shiva the original?

did i steal your id?

Shiva the Original - do you really think Ambedkar would proclaim the playing field leveled??

is there such a thing as a level playing field??? acn someone answer me that??

In the US, politics and industry/ business is dominated by one class/ caste of people. The Ivey League educated bunch.

is there such a thing as a level playing field??? acn someone answer me that??

Exists only in theory (Communism/ Marxism) - in real world it can never be achieved, though that will not stop people from trying.

"Mayavati has supported reservations for OBCs and for disadvantaged forward castes to boot. Seriously, why don't upper castes fight for this rather than try to dismantle a system which they simply don't have the votes to dismantle?"

well mayawati just shows that you can't generalize about all members of a certain class or caste thinking alike, because there are dalit opponents of the reservations. likewise, not all upper castes are against reservations and are trying to dismantle the system. and try fighting for reservations for disadvantaged upper caste members (especially the "notorious" brahmins and you'll have people like s. anand of outlook magazine and kancha illaiah foaming at the mouth :)

there is no such thing as an ideal level playing field, but we can strive to be more equitable (and a properly-thought out reservations system is part of this) and eventually arrive at a purely merit-based system. another effect of caste-based reservations is that people who have left religions which have caste for those which ostensibly don't (but in reality do) are now claiming caste again so they can get benefits and reservations, even though they are not underprivileged.

will these reservations apply only to IITs/IIMs or will they also apply to privately-run colleges run by hindus, christians, muslims or other private entities etc?

Krish - thanks for your comment. I agree that the assumption that the quality of graduates would decrease with increased reservations is shameful and elitist.

@60, dharma queen,
let us leave political correcness aside for a while. Tell me why is it not so - after all, there *is* much more competition in the general category, and the cutoffs for reserved categories are noticeably low. SO if you have faith in the ability of the entrance exams to judge merit, you must agree that the institutions are taking in more students of lesser aptitude if the reservations are more, right? then why is the expected decrease in quality not realistic??
note: plz dont assume that im against reservations - i'm not, but the devil is in the details.

@krish. #58
i agree with the drift of your comment. i don't think it is fair to scrap reservations as yet, and it is ridiculous to think that dalits and some obcs are anywhere near emancipated.

but i don't agree with you completely either. in this particular instance of iit/iims i believe it is populism (elections round the corner in some states) rather than enlightenment. just like the assam govt wanted to reserve seats for assamese in iit guwahati. elections got over, you don't hear a whisper abt that now.

1.

Let us take IITs and IIMs. The government spends several lakh rupees for each student admitted into these institutions. If you see the statistics, you will find that more than 80% of the students from these institutions are from priviledged sections of the society (don't tell me this is not true. I am from IITB and I know the statistics. In fact, I am giving a conservative estimate). Why should tax payers money help only those guys/gals from priviledged sections of the society? Why can't we change the scenario so that all sections of the society benefit from the government money?

in the case of iits and iims, this is a specious argument i hear many many times. the taxpayer money subsidizes those who pass the entrance exam, not previledged sections. there is a difference in intent which is ignored most of the time. and as far as the exam goes, it is largely fair.

that said, i am all for iits and iims being required to train underpreviledged classes for the entrance exam, which already happens at least in iit madras in the case of dalits.

you should be aware that i can use your argument to say that india should not have airports, for example. it is not even 80% here, 99% of the country do not use airports.

2. regarding your comment that "the upper castes will not even let them be educated", i don't think the analogy holds here. it is not primary or secondary education we are talking abt. iits and iims do *not* attempt to be universal---they are more like a lottery rather than aid.

i know i am on a slippery slope here. iits should have a broader impact, but at present, they will take in only 2000 or so.

3. like many have pointed out, it is very important to note that while dalits are disadvantaged today uniformly across the country, not all obc's are disadvantaged. and even that (some) obc's stand more in the way of dalits today than the traditional upper castes.

iits should have a broader impact, but at present, they will take in only 2000 or so.

Byteword,

I agree with most of your points. However,

IITs = MIT/ Caltech/ RPI of India. MIT, Caltech, and RPI has very small and selective admission policy too. These small technical universities are not for everyone, here and even there. Sure, the selection process should be fair. In principle it is (as you said) for JEE/ CAT exams but I guess economics plays role in leading up to admission process.

IIMs = Sloan/ Wharton of India. At least, they have entrance exams and on paper, you are on level-playing field in IIMs. Here you can supossedly walk into Sloan or Wharton if you got educated @ Cornell/ Darmouth, get grade-inflated (don't tell me it doesn't happen, I know it rather too well), get uber-coached for standardized tests, and whalla, you are in. George W. Bush could not get admitted to UT, Austin law school but was admitted to Harvard Business school. Recently, in news, there was IIM A graduate whose mother is a street-vendor who turned down some blue chip offers. Quite unlikely, at HBS.

Regarding IIT/ IIM reservation, I am kinda neutral. I know some IIT/ IIM graduates who made it initally through reservation, and then they rose to the top. Some sank without trace.

Sure, to be competitive for IIT/ IIM exams, one has to be in the right socio-economic class that can afford coaching, etc but same is here.

DesiCynic:

I read a copy of an ICS exam some time ago that makes me think that the entrance exams, like many entrance exams to many institutions around the world, are dubious indicators of aptitude. The questions were class-biased and general (some of them had to do with recent tennis champions!). I admit I don't know what IIT's entrance exams are like. But surely someone from an underprivileged background may have the aptitude to be a stellar scientist/engineer/whatever, yet not have the knowledge to do well on an entrance exam. If entrance exams were true indicators of aptitude, the best scientists and thinkers would always be those with the highest entry marks.

What is a JEE exam for IIT admission? From http://www.webindia123.com/career/entrance/jee/intro.htm

The JEE consists of (a) preliminary examination (screening test) and (b) main examination. Preliminary examination consist of an objective type paper of 3 hours duration in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics. Only those candidates, who qualify the screening test are eligible to appear in the main examination. The main examination has papers in physics, chemistry and mathematics of 2 hours duration each.

In principle, they are about calculus, and physics problems. They are not any "goofy" eassys like here or about honor societies or debate clubs.

So Kush, merits of 'goofy' essays aside, how does this refute the point that an underprivileged person might not have the background or knowledge to do as well on an entrance exam? If Student A has been tutored to death, gone to the best schools, and had a rich set of parents nagging at him to study, while Student B has gone to a government school and been plagued by a host of poverty-related problems, there's a far greater chance that Student A will get past the entrance exam.

Maybe if you'd written a few goofy essays you'd know how to address an argument.

@dq, 74
the entrance exams for jee are reasonably fair. there are several coaching centers that claim to be know "how to get into the institutes" and they do manage to get a lot of people into the iits. but they drive their students worse than the most illtreated donkey, so it could just be the effort that pushes the students in.

where i came from, we had no good coaching centers then. so we were left to fend for ourselves. (good) correspondance coaching though is in the reach of most aspirants (abt 2k-3k = roughly 50$ or so for 2 years), so almost every one in the country can afford these.

since we are talking technical exams here, there is not much scope for class-bias or anything like that. and yes, the exams are purely technical, no general interest categories or anything like that.

and the jee has been successful in one regard---all the students who do well are good. what it does not or cannot achieve is to measure small differences in aptitude. but yes, those in the top 250 or so in jee are significantly off the charts by almost any measure. and you will be surprised how well represented some god-forsaken village in bihar is in this list.

what krish pointed out is however true. you will not see dalits in this category---endemic discrimination is definitely to blame for it. the exam acknowledges this drawback---you do have 22% reservation for sc/st in jee.

how does this refute the point that an underprivileged person might not have the background or knowledge to do as well on an entrance exam?

Sure, economics plays a big role getting in IIT/ IIMs. For most part (not always), the people who get admitted to IIT/ IIMs are educated in private schools/ high quality public schools/ with coaching classes, etc. Not always. I am sure some of the IIT/ IIM graduates from humble socio-economic background will comment themselves @ SM. Let them speak out.

In general, a son or daughter of a street-vendor even sharp as a knife will get lost in the economics of staying afloat and day-to-day struggle, and will not be competitive. However, if you walked into IIT campus, you will see more students from humbler background than Cornell, Harvard, etc. Please note the key word is "more". I have two sample points: IIT (Roorkee), and Cornell. I am not going-off the tangent.

Bytewords,
I'm an arts graduate and wrote a lot of goofy essays, so bear with me:

In Canada, Native Canadians can get into certain programs in university without meeting the same requirements non-natives have to. The logic is that if you were sent away to residential school (terrible schools, for the most part, where native children were abused), your parents were alcoholics, you were abused, there was no food at home, you were subject to isolation, racism etc. you might have more difficulty meeting the requirements most non-natives can. I don't have a problem with this because it seems to me that a Native may have the necessary aptitude for a field, just not the necessary experience/knowledge. Just because some sweeper woman's son can't solve a physics problem as well as my cousin on entry to IIT, does not mean that he won't be able to solve it better on his exit.

Kush Tandon

Regarding IIT/ IIM reservation, I am kinda neutral. I know some IIT/ IIM graduates who made it initally through reservation, and then they rose to the top. Some sank without trace.

There is a Dalit fellow now a grad student at Stanford who topped IIT-Bombay in aeronautical engineering after getting in on a reserved seat. There will be scores of success stories like this in the future. As bytewords says this is exceedingly political and it may not even happen--Brand India (All rights reserved) may just win out in the end, but I think debates like these are important.

@dq, #80
what goofy essays??

ah you assume iits want to turn out the best graduates. no, they want to take in the "best" students after 12th. best of course in a qualified sense.

all that can be said is that if you are exceptional, you have a chance of making it if you really desire, no matter how poor you are---i am speaking with some qualifications here. and if i am not good, i have no chance of making it, no matter how rich i am---no qualifications here.

but trust me, 1/2 my class had to take out loans (easily available though if you make it into the institute) to pay the tuition+board per semester. many are not particularly well off at the iits, and you will find a better mix of all economic classes in the iits than almost anywhere else.

Let us take IITs and IIMs. The government spends several lakh rupees for each student admitted into these institutions. If you see the statistics, you will find that more than 80% of the students from these institutions are from priviledged sections of the society (don't tell me this is not true. I am from IITB and I know the statistics. In fact, I am giving a conservative estimate). Why should tax payers money help only those guys/gals from priviledged sections of the society? Why can't we change the scenario so that all sections of the society benefit from the government money?

The IITs select (and subsidize) those who do best in the JEEs. They do not look at the checkbooks or bank accounts of the parents. Yes, it is true that those who get in can generally afford private tuitions and are not generally destitute. But that is a far cry from saying that it subsidizes the privileged and undeserving. To pass the JEE in the open category, you have to slog like crazy and/or be very smart. The kid of Azim Premji cannot get in without passing the JEE. The IITs are/were following the right strategy, because it is an investment likely to pay off very big. It is not a handout without a payback. Are you telling me that the subsidy that went into educating Narayana Murthy, the son of a very average middle class teacher, was not worth it? I would argue that just one Narayana Murthy was enough to make up for all the subsidies given to all IIT students at that institution. Not to mention all the others who have raised India's profile and also brought in investment and technology from abroad. And all sections of society do benefit from this. Using Infosys' example, all the ancillary industries that have sprung up to serve as vendors to Infosys have jobs because of the employees and management of Infosys. BTW, as India gets more prosperous, the size of the subsidy can be cut. But if you treat an IIT admission as a handout rather than something worth competing for, it will lose its value.

Does the Dennis Lillee Foundation select the slowest bowlers from the pool of youngsters? Or does it select the ones with the best combinations of speed, strength and skill?

i am lost in the detail, but it is fascinating, but, a few comments....

i don't know many brown people, but over the past few years i have talked to some and it is clear that a small, but vocal (or unseemly, depending on how you look at it), subset of americo-browns are very caste/ethnic conscious. of course these tend to be self-perceived "high castes." they are not caste conscious in the "kill the sudra who looked at my wife way," they are caste conscious in the embarrassing-guy-who-brags-he's-descended-from-the-king-of-france sort of way. i always think, "but dude, what do you call an indian dude who is of brahmin origin? a brahmin sand nigger." i think the caste consciousness you see among some on this message board is simply a reflection in differences in the south asian american and western south asian community. while i believe a majority are either fully assimilating or generating a new pan-brown-identity, a large minority are crystallizing and reinforcing their own self-perception as "iyers" or "punjabi khatris" or "kashmiri pandits," etc. more power to them, but a minority of this minority are not sincerely reaching for a deeper and more fully realized understanding of their ethnic identity, but just want another merit badge to impress other people with, and it usually shows (among muslim browns those who ostentatiously claim non-brown origins all the time is similar, muslim browns do have non-trivial % of non-brown ancestry, but it is somewhere around 5% turk/persian/arab vs. 95% brown).

re: reservations. i don't care much about the details, but one might want to consider the % who graduate or succeed of those let in. one can always find instances of those who succeed 'despite the odds,' but if you let in 10% on reserved slots but only 30% of these graduate vs. 80% of non-reserved slots you might want to consider that. 30% is still a large enough % that you will be able to general many anecdotal examples of success.

finally, i hope you canadians are freezing your asses off. you have a queen, but we've got longer growing seasons!

Krish - thanks for your comment. I agree that the assumption that the quality of graduates would decrease with increased reservations is shameful and elitist.

Assuming that entrance tests has some correlation on the applicant's success in college whereas caste has none. It follows that greater reliance on the latter will reduce the quality of the applicants.

The logic is that if you were sent away to residential school (terrible schools, for the most part, where native children were abused) your parents were alcoholics, you were abused, there was no food at home, you were subject to isolation, racism etc. you might have more difficulty meeting the requirements most non-natives can.

It's shameful and racist to assume that natives are bad parents and alcoholics.

-----------------------------------
It's also racist to assume that black kids or lower caste kids will be disadvantaged. We do it anyways.

Quotas and affirmative action are NOT about priviledge. They are about trying to keep the peace between largely endogamous clans by artificially reducing interclan disparities.

I'm not trying to nit-pick here but ICS exams include questions on tennis and the like which can be answered by merely reading the newspapers and are not necessarily class-biased. Meaning I don't have to play tennis to know who won the Australian Open last year.

Maharashtra has a "quota" for women in most colleges which sadly led a lot of the boys I knew to assume ALL the girls had gotten in through the quota! Trust me, that allegation hurts if you have an awesome rank on the merit list. That experience taught me that reservation would never bring the underprivileged on par, atleast not in the minds of the others. Better to fight it fair and square methinks.

And it's become a matter of convenience too. The boy who consistently topped Pune university in my batch happened to belong to the OBC category. When the time came to apply for a Master's degree, he easily got in through the "general" list, but a lot of students on the waiting list approached him and asked him to instead apply through the OBC/SCST quota which was pretty much open. This would allow one of them (a non-OBC) a chance. For obvious reasons, the topper refused and thus earned the reputation of being inconsiderate and selfish. You can never win on this one it seems.

Trust me, that allegation hurts if you have an awesome rank on the merit list. That experience taught me that reservation would never bring the underprivileged on par, atleast not in the minds of the others. Better to fight it fair and square methinks.

i have several similar stores. one is almost identical. this friend of mine from maharashtra used to be vehemently opposed to "any kind of reservation", as she put it. we never understood why, since she was usually very sensitive in acknowledging that dalits are tremendously disadvantaged. then we found out that her college had this kind of reservation. so she had this position to protect herself from being perceived as one of those who got in through reservations.

it is amazing how many different ways people will think. :)

Whose God is it anyways,

I agree that it should come from bottom to the top. I also agree that Arjun Singh is trying to bring in reservations in IITs and IIMs without even bothering to fix the existing reservation system for purely political reasons. However, we cannot deny the fact that we need some kind of a system where IITs and IIMs also benefit other segments of the society. Also I am talking about people who are totally against the concept of reservations itself. Those Dalits who speak against OBC reservations are doing it for political reasons. They wouldn't say that the concept of reservations is unnecessary.

Shiva the original,

None of the people you quoted have said that the playing field is leveled. I didn't ask for people from under privileged section who had made to the top. There are many including our ex president K.R. Narayanan. I wanted you guys to show one such person who had claimed that the playing field in India is leveled.

bytewords,

"in the case of iits and iims, this is a specious argument i hear many many times. the taxpayer money subsidizes those who pass the entrance exam, not previledged sections. there is a difference in intent which is ignored most of the time. and as far as the exam goes, it is largely fair."

I never said that IITs and IIMs are meant to train only the priviledged classes. I just said that the people who get in are mostly kids from privileged sections. The reason for this is that the playing field is not leveled and it is biased totally towards the privileged sections. It is my argument that there should be some kind of "external force" that will allow the kids from under privileged sections to get into these institutions.

Just because the playing field is not leveled anywhere doesn't mean that we shouldn't aspire for it. You need not be a Marxist believer to aspire for it. Even if you are a capitalist, you should aspire for a level playing field. Capitalism will be 100% successful only in a level playing field. If only the playing field in US is a leveled one, we wouldn't have had events like Katrina. So I would not agree to the spin that level playing field will only exist on the marxist theories. Just because a society doesn't follow marxism also doesn't mean that the society shouldn't aspire to have a level playing field.

Beef,

Point taken about the assumptions re Native parents. Let's just say that generally speaking the substance abuse rates, poverty rates, history of abuse, single mother rates on reserves have been shown to be a lot higher than in the general population. It's not racist to say that its harder under those conditions to get high marks, or study with great concentration. I don't buy that entrance exams are an absolute indicator of college performance. If you use them as an absolute indicator, you risk excluding people who haven't yet had a real chance to prove themselves.

Vanya,

If you're a village girl in Bihar, are you as likely as some pampered Mumbaikar to be reading about the Australian Open? Of course these questions are biased!

Razib,

Yes, but we've got the oil. Come winter, tick us off and we'll see whose asses freeze off.