quit trying to be so profound. more manish!

quit trying to be so profound.

dating while desi...is more complicated than Sudoku puzzles

More complicated than solving a Rubick's cube under 30 seconds...

well, there's the whole: "beti, a marriage is between two FAMILIES, not just two people."

i'll admit...i went to a HS where i was the only South Asian...maybe even Asian, for that matter....and until college came around, I thought I was white. then i went to college (UT....15% brown....30% in natural sciences and engineering), and found myself unable to relate to FOBs, and the brown kiddos from Houston. i went through phases of being brazilian, senegalese, indie rocker...etc etc.

and now i'm just waiting for the Sepia Destiny tab....

lol That is a little funny though. Some ABCDs clump together into little Desi cliques in order to hold on to their culture, while others assimilate and become white-washed or black-washed or yellow-washed. The same is true with those born in India; they either remain FOBs forever or become what I like to call IBCDs, like me.

i wonder if at some point it will simply become about finding someone with whom you can share your life with unencumbered with whether s/he is indian or hindu or whatever. where the authentic connection is more important than whether or not they can fit into the mold we are told to fit into. where i understand that there are certain facets of a person that do matter for the ease with which the shared life can end up being, but isn't it also true that the most challenging things in life are also the most rewarding? so perhaps that challenge will end up creating something more meaningful and worthwhile. but i think the criticism is that this is highly idealistic thinking.

dating while desi...is more complicated than Sudoku puzzles

No wonder, I can't seem to get the hang of it.

bi-cultural identity now doesn’t make dating for a 20-something female any easier

I agree, and its not any easier for the guys either. However, I do find desi girls far more attractive, perhaps for the same reason that Thai women find Thai food more nutritious?

but isn't it also true that the most challenging things in life are also the most rewarding?

or the reason for a societies high divorce rate?

the comment about "why do SAs hate each other so much" ... good question - I don't know. in my opinion, for what its worth they hate everyone else equally.

The most blantantly racist remarks that I've heard uttered by anyone in my few years in the united states have been by indians... all kinds, fobs, abcds whatever.

something culturally wrong with us if we can only tolerate clones of ourselves.

Oh Taz you have managed to invoke such deep thoughts in the deep pores of my soul with your short little visit. I dread the day you will be gone from SM.

Oh being desi and American all at once is all screwed up if you ask me. It's like having a devil and an angel on your shoulder everytime you are attracted to someone. You psychoanalyze the possibility to death long before you even smile or get to say hello. Messed up I tell you messed up. In my next lifetime I'm coming back as a fish or a bird. No more desi chick for me thank you very much.

Ofcourse it's complicated for us because non Indians are open to the possiblity of love with anyone. We (well me and people I know so don't want to generalize) have expectations and stipulations that need to be met before we've even met the person. Ugh.

echoing JOAT...I don't know if there's any SM precedent for this, and so be that as it may, this might be up to the mutineers to decide - but is there any chance Taz could stay forever? :) Its going to be hard seeing this wonderfully but temporarily doubled female representation on SM halved when she leaves...*sniff*

Are there things about being desi that give us a different set of expectations about our love life and our marital lives than our non-Indian peers?

The 'expectations' become even more confusing and complicated, when you were born and raised both in India and the U.S.; end up living in the U.S. being an American - where initially you start out being a FOB and slowly move towards being an ABCD, but in the end you can't decide if you are a FOB or an ABCD.

How about an SM podcast.. I guess it's high time we had one. They're easy enough to do and I'm pretty sure a lot of the SM readership would welcome it.

but i think the criticism is that this is highly idealistic thinking. You said it, sister!

I never quite understand why dating is such a big deal in the Indian American community (both ABCDs and FOBs). Last week I met a long lost (FOB) friend who is going to marry his (ABCD) girlfriend, and he spent an hour explaining their respective stands on dating. The essence of his speech was that he had dated casually before but did not believe in "getting serious" before he met this girl, while she has been in "a few stable relationships".

I found it most amazing (and more than a little awkward) that my friend felt the need to explain himself, and to almost apologize for his own and his girlfriend's dating history. This is the first time we had met for seven years, and he launches into this within minutes of saying hi.

In India, where I live and have dated for several years, you either date or you don't - it never is the defining issue of your life. And I have never had a discussion with friends about "my stand on dating".

Another incident springs to mind. On a visit to America last year, I met a (rather attractive) brown girl in a bar. When I asked her about the local nightlife, she said "you know, as an Indian I am not supposed to go out much - it is against our culture. I maybe go for a drink with the girls once in a while". I was shocked not only at her presumptions ("against OUR culture"), but also her defensive and rather apologetic attitude. Does it stem from the fear of being branded as "too American"?

Ofcourse it's complicated for us because non Indians are open to the possiblity of love with anyone. We (well me and people I know so don't want to generalize) have expectations and stipulations that need to be met before we've even met the person. Ugh.

I sympathize completely with the plight, but I don't think desis are alone in this kind of situation. Say a person is Mexican-American, they could be confronted by the same thing. Or people of different regions of the country, different social backgrounds, religions.

I think it is very complicated though, and frankly kind of hard work to navigate these issues. Some people seem to just get it though, and hats off to them

no offense to the incredibly conflicted dating-troubled people here, but at some point you have to step back and look at everything from a viewpoint unencumbered by cultural baggage and tradition: date someone who is a good match for you, regardless of skin color, heritage, and most importantly, what your family will think. it is really easier than you think to do this - it just takes a shift in your mindset.

Dish - it's great to do this, until one side or the other throws down the gauntlet. Then you end up having to choose, and one side makes you pay. I've been in a couple of long relationships with non-Indians - last one was six years long. One of my parents hated the guy, and had a number of crises in which I had to basically put my bf on the backburner while I ran to play nurse/therapist etc. My ex did not get why I had to take on this burden (I'm an only child). Non-Indians don't always understand the dynamics at play in Indian families, nor the responsibility you feel. For a lot of them a spouse or bf should always come first. Anyway, it's extremely stressful and painful to get caught in the middle.

echoing JOAT...I don't know if there's any SM precedent for this, and so be that as it may, this might be up to the mutineers to decide - but is there any chance Taz could stay forever? :) Its going to be hard seeing this wonderfully but temporarily doubled female representation on SM halved when she leaves...*sniff*

I agree. Think of it this way. You need a female (Taz) to balance out the extra male (Fofatlal). Or perhaps you need 00-era lip piercings (Taz) to balance out 70s-era sideburns and glasses (Fofatlal). I'll leave the other justifications to you.

I agree Dharma Queen. It's more than just mindset. The weight and the impact of most of our families on our lives and the constant negotiation we have to engage in between them and our personal lives is staggering. I've been with non-browns with much more frequency than the brown and no matter how interested, open, educated my non-brown partners have been, at the end of the day, the role of the dutiful (and I use this term loosely) daughter and my refusal to make my romantic relationship the single most important focus in my life, always kills it. However, I've known that statistically, I'm much less likely to get along in any kind of romantic partnership with the brown guys - so what to do.

As I grow older however, I think my eyes are being opened to the existence of brown guys who are just as interesting, as queer-positive, politically aware, feminist, critical and with just as great a taste in music as the whiteys I've been with - and with a wealth of knowing stories about mom to share to boot. I'm not making any decisions either way with this whole bi-racial issue because the older I grow, the more complicated it all becomes, but it's been gratifying and a relief to know that there are sexy brown boys with sexy brown brains that I had just never encountered before, thanks to the circles I moved in. Payal brings up a very good point about us "inbetweens". What do you do when you're both a FOB and an ABCD and neither? What do you do when no matter which side of things your partner is on, there's always an entire set of issues about which you feel alienated from them about? And why are we so issue-laden as a community? Aaak.

Also - Taz, my fellow labretted Bengali sister, you gotta stay. Gots to.

ABCD youth one often had to deal with the projection by your peers that the only people you were expected to date is that one other desi in the school, even though you had nothing in common with them

Thank you Taz! Allow me to gripe: Non-desis assume desis won't date non-desis. And its not just ABCD youth who have to deal with this. I've had a white guy recently complain that, "Indians are the most endogenous group of people when it comes to dating." I've had a black guy tell me, "Too bad there's no one here for you to date," referring to the dearth of brown at my grad school. (He's dating a white girl.) I think all of us have non-desi friends/Co-workers who say, "I know a single Indian guy/girl. I should set you two up." My well meaning friends rarely put much thought about personality or compatibility into the set up besides, she's Indian, he's Indian. I adore my desi boys (especially those with "smooth skin the color of café con leche" :-P) but I'm equal opportunity when it comes to dating.

Brownfrown - thanks so much for your comment. I often feel I'm in the wilderness when it comes to all these issues in dating non-Indians, because most of the desi people I have known date desis, period. Which seems false and mechanical to me. If someone desi comes along, then great, but in the meantime...

“Are there things about being desi that give us a different set of expectations about our love life and our marital lives than our non-Indian peers?”

Number one question on my mind right now. Unfortunately, I should be doing something else other than procrastinating on this site and answering this question.

SEPIA DESTINY!!

Hmmm.... just a couple of inputs:

1. Re: the issue of meeting a desi who has the same interests as you - particularly if you aren't "mainstream" (regarding music, politics, social life etc): Most people are "mainstream" period, regardless of their ethnic background. The percentage of desis isn't huge to begin with - thus, when you try to find a partner who complies with both criteria of "non-mainstream" and "desi" you will soon discover like-minded individuals of the same ancestry are few and far between. Hence, you may have to date outside of your ethnic background/desi community. Yeah, it'd be nice to find a fellow desi, but don't sweat it. I've gotten over myself being the be-all and end-all of the desi lineage. Even the whole "non-mainstream" criteria can be ridiculous at times, esp the older I get. I really don't give a shit anymore if someone has heard of yo-la-tengo or not - bah - forget the pretentious crap - the definition of cool in my book has really changed for the better.

2. Re: Complying with Family Wishes: I understand that this is a difficult one. I've been there... but at the end of the day, your future family or possible future family (and thus, spouse) comes first. *Note this is not advice to star-cross'd tweens, but rather for those in their mid-twenties to thirties and beyond*. Sooner or later, you've got to live your life! Best of luck...

*I apologize if I am not making any sense. It's extremely hot and humid right now and I just had a couple of brewskies to cool off!!*

Metric Ang,
While I get your sentiment behind what you're saying - I've long gotten over wanting to date hipsters, scensters, bass players, and nerds who are nerds for the hip aesthetic appeal (not to exlude any of those people - except maybe scensters) - I don't think that a search for someone who's "non-mainstream" is as superficial for most of us as you may be suggesting. Even though the Yo La Tengo is a definite plus, it's more to do with similar political and societal convictions than anything else.

Your point about economies of scale is a bang on. However, that doesn't really change the fact that for a lot of us, bi-racial relationships continue to be problematic for certain reasons while desi relationships continue to be unlikely for others. It was once much easier to date non-desis back in the day when I was blissfully unconcerned with my issues of identity and of constant displacement, but the older I get, the more the desi leaps up at every inconvinient moment, to bite me in the ass, so to speak. So now what?

As for the family stuff; ideally I'd like it to be so my future family, whatever form that takes, and my biological family are equal priorities that get along with each other. It's a little heartless if I up and take off into the Canadian wilderness with my partner and leave the 'rents to deal with whatever aging in this country entails. The problem is, that if I'm stressed out constantly about their crappy relationship with each other and if they both think that my infatuation with the other is a sign of my oppression or my delusion, things just get ugly... for me. So yes yes, it's my life, I'm an adult, I have to be with whoever is "right" for me yada yada but as a self-admitted overanalyzer and a desi person of no place, trying to figure out what that could possibly mean with any degree of pragmatism is an incredibly complex and daunting prospect.

Speaking of here's a link to Achar. a sitcom on the AZN channel about a Paki guy and Asian girl, complete with overbearing obese Punjabi mother/mother-in law. It's horrible but we are starved for desi media portrayals...

Indians are the most endogenous group of people when it comes to dating

awww brownfrown.... I completely understand what you are going through! Believe me you. Especially with the 'rents. I suppose the "answers" are different for each person, and you're just going to have to find the right balance for you. I know that sounds like a simplistic answer, but maybe, there is no one definitive answer. Each of our parent sets have varying degrees of craziness on the sane to crazy continuum - from Abhi's uber-cool, supportive dad to fearful parents who make their kids lives a living hell; as such, we are all going to have various methods of coping with the generation and cultural gap.

And as far as dating outside the desi community - it's definitely frustrating when you date someone who seems to have all the liberal ideas you do - but then you discover they're just spitting out rhetoric and have no real idea what visible minorities, woman, and desis have to deal with. I completely understand that there are very few people that can transcend their own life experiences - I can see how not having to explain yourself and your experiences would be easier with another desi. I'll give you that one.

I don't think wanting to date non-mainstream types is superficial - especially when it comes to political ideas - one less thing to argue about.

Finally, it would be nice to have someone who your parents approve of (while I hope that everyone can find the perfect mate for EVERYONE) but sometimes this doesn't happen. Actually, this doesn't happen quite often. So, what do you do?
I'm not suggesting you leave your parents to go off into the sunset with a fling! No, no, noooooo..... but your parents should have to compromise a little - it definitely sounds like you've sacrificed/compromised alot yourself. I think this is especially hard for us as women, who feel we have to be nurturing. Sometimes parents can take advantage of this.... and some are very manipulative.

I do get you and I appreciate your thoughts and dilemma. Rest assured, your sentiments are shared by many here at the mutiny. I don't think your feelings are superficial at all, and if you ever want to contact me to chit the chat, I've linked my addie. :-)

Metric Ang and Brownfrown - Lord, do I hear you both. It is such a relief not to get either the blank-stare-don't-you-think-they're-a-bit-overbearing reaction from non-Indian acquaintances, or the I-never-liked-him-your-love-life-is-not-important act from the parents/relatives. There can definitely be manipulation, and on both ends. Your non-Indian friends/bf can want you to be like them - 'liberating' you as it were, from 'oppression' - while your Indian parents/relatives exercise control through emotional ties.

Unfortunately, some of us are pushed into making a choice. One side or the other or both don't compromise but attack eachother ceaselessly, without regard to your happiness. In order to make this choice, you need a certain ruthlessness that doesn't come naturally in your early twenties, for example, when you want to tell people to give peace a chance.

Dharmaqueen, brownfrown, metric ang -- reading your comments truly makes me feel relieved that I'm not the only one contending with these issues. You don't know how many times I've told my mother that I could "never marry an Indian because I'm too ... different." It's not even that I'm "too good" for the md/jd/IT/i-banking clones, but I honestly believe they would never be attracted to someone like me. While music and politics a marriage does not make, my tastes in certain things are so far outside of mainstream culture that I really think my chances of finding an Indian guy who is compatible with me are slim to none. I've started to become a little bummed out about this stuff lately, to be honest. The majority of my ex-bf's have been white guys -- great guys, too, and we didn't break of for obvious cultural reasons. But there's a new part of me that would really like to find a brownie to settle down with and I just don't know where I'm going to find this Prince Charming ... er ... Prince Rama ;)

Milli, I've been there - besides being raised in a pretty white town, I took up philosophy in school - not exactly a brown-dude magnet. My tastes were outside the mainstream too, and as someone without any mansion-on-a-hill ambition, I figured few desi guys would be interested in me. I was rarely asked out by Indian guys, just white guys. Even the desi guys I hit on, there was just never any spark. Like someone said earlier, don't stress. If you're dead set on a desi, have a couple of flings at least and get it out of your system, so you can move on.

echoing JOAT...I don't know if there's any SM precedent for this, and so be that as it may, this might be up to the mutineers to decide - but is there any chance Taz could stay forever?

could she?! love your posts!

:)
metric ang & dharma queen & millivanilli - I just came back from a brown girl's feminist social group a few maladusted brown sisters have started up in my city and I thought of your posts often. We're small (and open to displaced brown boy feminists too) and our "meetings" usually consist of sitting in restraunts, being very loud, drinking lots, eating lots and talking about the our (always) biracial relationships, our families (usually insane moms, clueless dads) and our alienation from other desis - romantically and otherwise. We started our group thinking we might turn it into political activism but realised that what *we* really needed was to nurture ourselves by just being around people who felt just as confused as we each do. And in this city, with a pretty tiny population of "alterna" desis, that's not very easy to do. None of us have very many answers but it's comforting to be around other people with questions and angst and seemingly functional yet totally bewildering double lives.

Anyway, it's been great to share my thoughts with you and to hear your thoughts on these issues - I think it's important to remember that we are pioneers in a sense; there is a whole generation of us growing up more inbetween and with more pressures than anyone preceeding us. Maybe we need to give up on the very idea of an answer and enjoy the process of exploring the strange place we occupy and the even stranger interractions we have with the people around us. Maybe it's in the giving up that we'll be freed. *disclaimer - I blame this cheese-fest on all the wine we just downed*

interesting note on 'finding lasting love' issues described by all in different forms above:

-i'm guessing most of the people who post on here are hindu/muslim, and i'm neither so i have a slightly different set of experiences relating to this...

-but here's a v scary thing to be worried about taken from an old indian aunty i know is a 'match-maker' ie blind dates of introducing people who are ready to get married and setting them up on dates vs. meet-me-then-marry-me-the-next-day style...

-people describing as a conflict between dating white boys but then wondering whether in the end they should end up with a brown boy...listen to this:

-this old lady admitted that while in the past she used to get people coming to her because they thought this was best for them, nowadays she is more likely to get girls who are feeling:
-down in general about life or going through a bad patch career wise etc.
-on the REBOUND from a bi-cultural relationship
-feeling defeated by constant pressures from their families and community in general

-i'm not making any judgments on people who decide to date people unassisted vs 'assisted', but i'm just saying that for those who choose this option from a place where they are unhappy in themselves this may not be the best way to go.

-we won't be 'liberated' by non-SA's or 'held back' by our own, because most people are an unqualifiable and complicated mix of both, but i'm just saying it was v scary to hear this old aunty cackling away about preying on poor culturally confused souls or heartbroken rebounders like a vulture on the lookout for fresh meat...

-i do not believe that there is some intrinsic quality that makes it easier for some to relate to other SA's, I think its an environmental thing that gives us something in common. For people with a strong sense of individuality it takes more than shared experiences of being desi to make them feel really connected to another person. if that other person happens to be brown AND also get along with them on an individual level, then problem solved for families. if not...make beautiful hot bi-racial babies. Once those aunties see those light-eyed gorgeous creatures, its possible that all may be forgiven...

Non-Indians don't always understand the dynamics at play in Indian families, nor the responsibility you feel. For a lot of them a spouse or bf should always come first.

Bingo. You said it. I always feel like there are some issues only desi parents understand. Why I won't follow my heart and move to SF but choose to stay on the east coast because my parents are getting old. Why my parents opinion is important to me. I share a complex and close relationship with my family and I'd hate to have to make excuses for it to someone non Indian. Only another Indian understands the idiocyncracies and complexicities of our cultural baggage.

no offense to the incredibly conflicted dating-troubled people here, but at some point you have to step back and look at everything from a viewpoint unencumbered by cultural baggage and tradition: date someone who is a good match for you, regardless of skin color, heritage, and most importantly, what your family will think.

With all due respect I think it's very easy for people to say "oh screw the baggage and tradition" you'll be happier. But many of us actually enjoy that baggage and traditions no matter how much it binds us and find strange comfort and identity in it. Sometimes the "good match" is someone that understands who you are and where you come from and what your priorities are. And for most of us it isn't always about what the family will think but family is a huge part of our lives and imporatant to most of us, what is so wrong I say about making harmonous choices that make them happy as well?

I remember when I had a profile on Match once and I was seeking someone Indian I used to get a lot of disgruntled non desi men telling me I was being narrow minded and myopic in only seeking an Indian man. I hate to be made to feel like I should apologize for it. We are all perfectly entitled to what our hearts desire, whether it's a brown man, a midget or a martian!

***sorry meant to say***

Bingo. You said it. I always feel like there are some issues only desi parents friends understand.

also brownfrown:

love the wine-fuelled rants :-) keep goin gurly with your feminist group too!

-also ive noticed that conventional desis sometimes feel threatened by alterna desis too which is why alternas may feel judged/looked down on by them. they think people listening to alternative music or wearing independent designers or even not doing their hair in beyonce styles means that alternas are judging THEM... its like a big awful misunderstanding that could just be solved with WINE :-)

-even the checked-shirt wearing, hair parted down the middle quiet brown boy in the corner could turn into a v different person with some vino in his system...

What I never get is why are WE the generation that is going through this social dilemmas and not ABCD's of the previous generation, people our parents' age who were brought up outside of India must have faced just the same amount, if not more, stigma then usual? so why do we feel the pinch but they seem relatively content?

Is it MTV? hahah

and adding on, I do not think arranged marraiges are all that terrible.
I get very annoyed by all the desi girls going and "omg, you are getting an arranged marraige" or by non indians who go "omg, that is so victorian"

I think we have become more enlightened, as have our parents and I do not think urban indians are subject to the "see that boy/girl? You're marrying him tomorrow"

If you think about it, its just a family dating service. What makes us any different from the scores of Westerners who log on to eharmony.com or friendster.com. At the end of the day, its about creating opportunity, finding someone you like, clicking with them and hopefully it will progress. If you meet a boy you like that you may have got to know through shaadi.com, so what?

Why stigmatise and propogate the stigmatisation? I do think that our parents are going to force us to marry any indian boy for the sake of him being a doctor or sitting in silicon valley. Even India Indian parents are becoming more enlightened, the fascination of the green card is waning and yes,well, I do not deny they pressurise us with all the nonsense about "i'm getting on in years, need to see my grandkids" but at the end of the day, they want us to be happy too =]

Moreover, I think that to many of us desi kids, parental approval is important and this is why we feel the pinch. We are unable to say SCREW YOU and run away for love. We need our parents to approve and want them to like the person! So, what is so terrible about letting them on in the process a little?

And to my way of thinking,albeit, romantically =D, whether you fall in love or get an arranged marraige, there is a reason why you meet your other half. And if you are fated to meet him ,then arranged or chancing upon him in a coffee joint or whatever doesn't really matter =)If its fate, *shrug*

Excuse any incoherence, its late for me here and my eyelids are drooping =)

sorry, I just can't seem to shut up :)

And well, coming from Singapore, let me tell you bi cultural dating is no easier here either and its definitely not exclusive to desis. The Chinese get it, the Malays get it and the Indians get it too. I have friends whose parents seem really liberal, letting them club, drinking with them, letting them hang out till the wee hours of the morning,( supposedly contrary to what good Asian girls should do ;]) but yet the minute, one of them started dating a malay guy, the supposedly westernised chinese mother and father were ranting on about culture. Hypocrisy, perhaps but we all face the same issue.

At the end of the day, what they(we) are afraid of is the disintegration of the culture. No matter, how much you try to retain much of it, there will always be compromises ( not necessarily a bad thing because we do have some idiotic cultural superstitions) and traditional beliefs that you were unaware that existed within you starts emerging. And since, marraiges are compromises anyway better, it be with a person who understands your background better than a person who doesn't!

And well, if it meant to be, it is meant to be :)

This is fun y'll. Enjoyed hearing JOAT, brownfrown, and metric ang air their desi love dilemmas. As an older FOB, (not old, you get me, just older than y'll) just about to divorce my desi husband who was a friend for many years in grad school, a sad end to a relationship based on so many Utopian projections, I can totally relate from the other side (been there, done that). I always had a fixation on "smooth skin the color of café con leche" and was frustrated by the desi types usually available. I had no experience of dating until well into my twenties, and always felt 'Orientalized' or seen through scary borderline-clueless too-liberal glasses by non-desis. So to fast forward the story, our marriage floundered on the rocks of commitment to parents trumps romantic companionate love. I found my ex turning into a traditional desi hubby, slowly forgetting respect for my obvious professional achievements and personal attractions (such as they must have seemed to him in rosy haze days), returning to 'family-comes-first' and becoming mama's boy. Now, I was pretty accomodating and of the grin-and-bear it personality in my marriage even if everyone else knew me as a fiery feminist. My hubby used to be a cool musician, general rebel, with a great sense of irreverant humour. Suddenly everything was sacred, and my behaviour wasn't reverent enough. My point is, that even if you think you've achieved a union of all possible worlds, satisfied your own romantic desires and parental aspirations, ultimately the two-faced commitment dilemma comes back to haunt you. I am very close to my parents and I've often asked myself if I wasn't tolerant enough of my hubby's late blooming commitment to his. But as someone pointed out in this discussion, one has to have a core commitment to the marriage or relationship first. I found that I couldn't rest content with an 'arranged marriage' type of married life in which I came last, parents, sister, uncles and aunts came first. This is not just because we chose each other in a 'love marriage', but also because it's too late for me to be satisfied with just the security of marriage. We do look for that special friendship, companionship etc, and that is a state of being not very accomodating of responsibility/duty/obligation to parents. And I agree that non-desis don't understand this dilemma. One of my ex-bfs was a Nepali for christ sake, but having spent most of his life in the US, he just couldn't understand how my close-ness to family could actually impact my life-decisions. And he just couldn't reconcile it with my 'independent' personality. Hell, even I can't! It's very troubling. At other times I think, what if you had a demanding job which kept you away from your SO/spouse more than they would like? Wouldn't you just factor it into your life? Well, why can't obligations to parents occupy the same place? You've got another job to do and it comes with the territory. Like it or lump it. You can't, however, give your SO the impression that he/she doesn't come first--that goes downhill, very fast.

Hey all,

This is also a wine and beer fuelled rant. Just came in from a bar with not one desi male to prey on. I'm also in the I-want-a-cafe-con-leche-skinned man phase, though don't really want to admit it...have to address Sudz point about the 'older' generation. I think they had their own set of very significant problems. Women were just 'busting out', working, demanding things. Imagine the upheaval for both males and females. Besides which, the older generation which came to North American were the first which had to flail along without the support of the joint-family system, which, twisted as it was, was entirely rational and worked for most people. When I think about what the older generation went through, I think I am just a whiny spoilt little drama queen.

But Sudz, your point about involving the older generation doesn't work - that presupposes the ascendancy of the family over romantic love, something most people born in the West have trouble stomaching. People born here are programmed to place romantic love highest, and in the individualistic society we live in, it makes sense to do so. You're not going to live with your family, you're going to live with your lover. Why should you involve the older generation in such a decision, when you are the only one who has to live with it.

chandi,

-your post was v inspiring and moving. and its so good to hear about other experiences of people who are (a little!) bit older than me who's still at the point where all i'm thinking about is sunshine and rainbows in relationships.

-i think the part about how to prioritise your family etc. is very important. i think that some (not all) desis who have issues with dating for their family vs for themselves will admit that deep down, if we really wanted to be with someone, our families would accept us and still love us and not disown us at the end of the day. would there be dramas, guilt-tripping, and threats? hell yeah. would any threats to disown us actually be followed through? no.

-also, despite initial disapproval, hurt etc. they may also learn to understand and respect our choice to prioritise our partners over our families NOT in our whole sense of ourselves as a person, but in our relationship with our significant other. no family, no matter how conservative, would want their children to be unhappy in relationships because they were the focus rather than the relationship itself.

-i have seen this issue come across in my own extended family and no amount of guilt-tripping etc. is going to convince me that ultimately its better and healthier for everyone involved to be true to your own value system of putting your family alongside not above someone you really care about. love and concern are limitless, not something scarce that we allot to our highest priority.

Chandi,
Feel for you. We born in the West desis sometimes forget that the cross-generational conflict we face is also actually an intra-cultural one. My Indian cousin, who married on his own, is facing the same sort of struggle with his mother - who is domineering and expects to be number one in his life. Meanwhile, he and his wife are in love, and naturally for them, the relationship comes first. Must be even harder for him, I think, because all around him are people telling him not to be selfish, not to neglect his mother, not to pay so much attention to his wife etc.

Why should you involve the older generation in such a decision, when you are the only one who has to live with it.

I think, pardon me if this is a cirular argument, its just that we cannot possibly conceive of living individualistically apart from our family and I think its programmed into us. And that's the crux of the problem, family is important to us and we cannot, like our western counterparts, choose consciously and say to "hell with you". Its not really a conscious choice of involving them ,it just happens. because The very fact that we feel torn, shows that their approval is important to you. Family is a concept we are familiar with, its just that when you throw in the idea of romantic love, the struggle to balance emerges, because to us, they are equally important.

I'm just saying that that pretty much embodies who we are and comes with the territory.

Are there things about being desi that give us a different set of expectations about our love life and our marital lives than our non-Indian peers?”

I'm not so sure about this. Of course my situation is a bit different than that of the average desi living abroad. Since I live in Europe, where desis are few and far between, I think my parents have given up hope a long time ago of me ever finding a desi partner. That, and they already share quite a liberal point of view. They have always made clear to me that they don't care what nationality or culture my future partner is, as long as he has a good character.

What the point is of the paragraph above? Well, that I'm not really sure what the expectations of our parents are about the love lives of us(desis). My family is not overbearing in the least and has been through several indian/non-indian marriages. I do think that my parents would be pleased if I dated a desi. I don't think that is ever going to happen though, partly because there simply are no desis in this country, but also because I think Indians from outside Europe have certain perceptions about Indians in Europe!(And I'm not talking about the UK.)

Bottom line, what ARE the expectations of desi parents regarding their children's romantic lives?

P.S. Please excuse my English, I tend to butcher it a bit since the official language in this country is not English.

echoing others, here's a disclaimer: i've had a lot to drink so take this with a grain of salt :)

"-i think the part about how to prioritise your family etc. is very important. i think that some (not all) desis who have issues with dating for their family vs for themselves will admit that deep down, if we really wanted to be with someone, our families would accept us and still love us and not disown us at the end of the day. would there be dramas, guilt-tripping, and threats? hell yeah. would any threats to disown us actually be followed through? no."

exactly. exactly.

many people here are (understandably) worried about what their family will think. your family just wants what is best for you. believe me, THEY ARE GOING THROUGH THEIR OWN STRUGGLES AND DOUBTS. have they raised their children properly? were they too controlling? or did they let american culture influence their children too much? is that even a bad thing? these things trouble indian parents. in the end, they will always love you incredibly. this is one of the strongest aspects of indian family, and why i am truly proud to be indian. both parents and ABCDs are going through crises at this moment in history. in the end, i suggest that the best thing you can do is to let go: become a citizen of the world. care for your parents, they brought you into this world, love them as any indian should. if your potential partner doesn't understand, try to make them understand; if they still don't, i see it as their problem.

i'm sorry if my earlier post made this seem easy, it's probably not. but it really does involve simply a shift in mindset: towards caring for all people, and finding someone for you that also has that equivalent sense of caring.

on an unrelated note, i need to find some of these "alterna desi" girls - hook me up yo! :)

|BTW... i heard a desi wish someone a happy good friday the other day... umm.. thought i'd share.
Umm. .. that was probably me. Happy Easter-on-the-modern-calendar! (Sorry, Anna).

Are you ready? My family hasn't had a desi-desi marriage on this continent.

46 years, baby.

So why? Probably because we lived in White Central (Toronto in 1960 was 60% English and Scottish. Italians and French made up most of the rest. I ain't lying.) and the family thought it better to marry Christian whites rather than non-Xian desis. The younger generation is all beige & has grown up with brown-white as the norm. Now I'm looking for alterna-desis. We need more brown! Specifically, ABCD, educated, intelligent, artsy brown!

And yes, I am being narrow-minded and myopic, and if this is my goal, I'll probably end up with an illiterate Swede. Feh.

whee!
Dishoom - you're right. The parents are going through their own crises of identity and it seems more than just the Missisipi Masala variety. My parents are urban, they're very well-travelled, they've led interesting lives had thier share of scandalous pasts (they *did* grow up in urban India in the 70s and cavort with hippies and the rest of it) and picked their own partners and made mistakes and yet what they really want now for themselves and also want their kids to accept unconditionally is a slow, sedate, safe, suburban life. They would never openly admit that they want our partners to be brown, but with anyone else, the judgement comes pouring down every time we interact.

So where is their crisis coming from? Maybe we're feeling the ripples of third wave feminism? Maybe the fact that a lot of the issues facing desi women - and men - are more than about just working outside the home and being on an equal footing with men, assimilating while hanging on to certain cultural markers. Maybe it's the fact that as this generation comes of age, many of us reject much of that traditional family/work paradigm but want to hang onto others. We aren't all becoming engineers and doctors and dental assistants (not to knock any one of those things). Some of us are becoming philosophers and jewellery makers and bakers and performers and musicians and activists and we've rejected the certainty of the (North) American dream and in a lot of ways, the more normative modes in which to express our "desiness" as well. I think we're a different kind of community (as diffuse as we seem) from even people who are perhaps 10 years ahead of us. A lot of us don't want the mainstrea, but we don't want to outright reject everything about our families to live a "radical" lifestyle - for which there is some significant desi precedent. For a lot of us, our needs and desires may be in some way "alterna", but it looks like we still want to maintain our ties to our family and have them accept our decisions, not just tell them to like it or lump it and take off to a commune.

My Indian cousin, who married on his own, is facing the same sort of struggle with his mother - who is domineering and expects to be number one in his life. Meanwhile, he and his wife are in love, and naturally for them, the relationship comes first. Must be even harder for him, I think, because all around him are people telling him not to be selfish, not to neglect his mother, not to pay so much attention to his wife etc.

This unfortunately is the curveball that many young desi marriages fail. I've seen mothers of friends and even aunts in my own family turn into total psychos after their sons get married. These women never were this way. They just changed overnight. But I also have a white friend going thru this right now. She's getting married in October and her future MIL has been totally insane feeling insecure and feeling like she is "losing" her son.

The problem unfortunately is that some baggage in our culture needs to be offloaded by our generation and not passed onto the next one. And that baggage is the sad and strange sense of "ownership" and unhealthy "obligation" towards a child. Too many moms and some dads don't let go of their child even after the child turns into an adult and enters another relationships. I've lost track of fights and even broken marriages among people I've known from meddling in-laws and sometimes even parents.

However if you've been a mama's boy your whole life and suddenly find a woman and shun the mama it ain't fair to the mama! You need to wean parents off early on. When I simply can't coax my schedule sometimes I have to fess up to my family that I can't visit and obligate them to understand. I don't want them to feel like I could drop anything and everything at the drop of a hat at anytime and run to them and get used to that notion. Emergencies not counting. Imagine I'm single now, if I had a husband, home, children I wouldn't want parents to be suddenly disappointed.

Interestingly again it isn't just with Indians. I have an Italian girlfriend who has a 7 month old and she has to hear "oh I haven't seen my granddaughter, you are keeping me from seeing her" from both sides of parents and is really struggling with it because her issue is "when the hell do I spend time with my child and my husband if I'm at my parents or in-laws every weekend, where is my downtime."

Balance and learning to say no. For now sometimes it works, mind you I still have fights with my parents because I choose a social activity over going to see them every weekend and sitting on the couch doing nothing. I've learnt to make them feel guilty however in turn ;-) I'll simply say "Fine I'll come visit you every weekend and at this rate I will never meet a man and never get married." Works wonders!!! hehehe

i didnt read anyone's comments so i can't really comment on them.

BUT TAZ I TOTALLY LISTEN TO THAT PODCAST TOO!!!

i got really into podbazaar a couple months ago and they've got a lot of interesting stuff but desi dilemmas is what keeps me coming back!

hehehe i love that i'm not the only one who listens to her!

I've seen mothers of friends and even aunts in my own family turn into total psychos after their sons get married. These women never were this way. They just changed overnight.

I think there's some very deep-rooted cultural and familiar conditioning at work here, both with regards to the "messages" the women receive from their own mothers and older female relatives (especially before they got married themselves and were -- in most cases -- living at home with their own parents, although this often continues behind male backs for decades afterwards) and in terms of the "advice" and horror-story anecdotes which are passed around within their desi social circles (certainly with regards to the "aunties" and those from the grandmothers' generation), all of which appear to have both a conscious and a subliminal impact.

It's almost like watching the results of one of those stage hypnosis shows -- where everything is normal until the hypnotist later says "the magic word", and then some kind of internal switch flips and everything suddenly, totally unexpectedly, radically changes completely, with no prior warning or signs whatsoever. There's such a total personality and attitude shift that I think that sometimes the women themselves can't explain why they're reacting & behaving that way.

I remember reading some on-line articles from some governmental social research source here in the UK which indicated that the "mother-in-law" issue, while occurring in multiple communities, is significantly more pronounced amongst South Asians here than in any other ethnic group.

*cultural and familiar conditioning

Apologies, that should say "familial"

i've been thinking about this topic for over three years--partly due to my own situation, partly due to the fact that i don't understand alot of things that happen in the south asian american context. last month, i came to the very bizarre conclusion. I blame Bollywood. I know it sounds outlandish, but Bollywood is so infilitrated in my mind, in my parents mind, in everyone's mind on what romance should/can be. Think about it--if a heterosexual couple falls in love without anyone assisting them, then there is bound to be fights (always.). If it is assisted, it's rare that there is fighting. I dunno, I really think that this standard of love, romance, hate, relationships, expectations, to a certain degree comes from Bollywood.

I remember watching my first Bollywood movie. I was 12 and amma sat me down to watch "Dil." Come on!!! Dil?? Do you remember that movie? I was OBSESSED with love being like that...hating each other, then falling madly in love, then drama with the rents, and then some sort of happiness. Of course there shall be dancing and singing in between! Of course!

I realize that art imitates life and life imitates art. As silly as it sounds, it helps me cope with not blaming people that I love for being irrational. This is my profound conclusion to some of my [dil]emma. ;)

Well, I just woke up so this isn't a wine-fueled rant, but I am groggy if that counts for anything!

I spent most of my teens fighting with my parents and pretty much pushing them away as much as possible, so I can't really make any claims of being a good doting desi son. But now that I'm a little older I've included them much more in my life and it's become much easier to do so. I can count on one hand the number of times my parents (well, always my mum) have talked to me about marriage. I think part of it is their residual fear of me from those angsty years and part of it being that I've chosen a path for myself (career and otherwise) in life that confuses the hell outta' them.

So in this aspect of my life my parents haven't put very much overt pressure on me. Who knows, maybe when I was younger they would sneak into my bedroom at night while I was sleeping and gently whisper "marry desi... marry desi..." In any case, that's the point I've come to in my life. I have a tendency to overanalyze everything to death (perhaps something many of us have in common?), but this one is absoultely beyond my grasp.

I don't think it's about not being able to see people as people or as being able to get beyond race. It's that I don't see love as some nebulous thing that floats around, I think it's very much created by our experiences and expectations. Being desi has very much informed who I am and there's that sense of mutual understanding that comes very easily with other desis who have chosen not-very-traditional paths. It's also that I've constructed a transnational life for myself, flitting between India and the US, sometimes for a week or a month and sometimes for years at a time. It's not that I think only desis will understand why I need to do this, and I certainly don't think very many 2g desis need this for themselves. My community of people is the other manic transnationals, who feel belonging everywhere and no where.

Hm...

I think there's some very deep-rooted cultural and familiar conditioning at work here, both with regards to the "messages" the women receive from their own mothers and older female relatives

Jai you hit the nail on the head. I find that in older desi social circles often women will tell other women something totally outlandish and unrealistic they themselves don't enjoy. "Go live with your son and DIL for 6 months it will do you good" type of advise is something they often realize is unreasonable but when it's doled onto a woman she feels pressure to follow it or prove that she can.

The support system I find my parents enjoy is very different from the support system I enjoy. My friends are brutally honest and don't blow any sunshine up my ass. They'll tell me like it is including telling me I'm full of shit if it is the case or I'm being unreasonable or even selfish towards my parents. My parents peer group however offers them utter nonsense I realize. Their views about the "ideal family" are so out in the left field I wonder where they get it from in the first place because they themselves never enjoyed it with their own in-laws.

And I swear I can't help but feel sometimes that in that older generation some level of insidious jealousy and resentment towards each other fuels the advise they offer each other. It's like they don't think twice about pushing someone into a fire and watching that person burn and then gloating and gossiping about it.

Bottom line, what ARE the expectations of desi parents regarding their children's romantic lives?

It's funny because I've always thought a lot about how my parents opinions, decisions (and dictates) affected my life but I never really put much thought into how the decisions I was making in my life, romantically, careerwise, etc. affected them. After I officially revealed myself as an alterna-desi and started refusing to associate myself with the overbearing Bengali community I noticed that my parents group of friends changed as well. They can't really (and I don't think they ever enjoyed it) engage in the whose child is a more important neurosurgeon and drives a bigger SUV game, and they've also stopped being so involved in the politics of the Bengali community. I don't know how directly what I'm doing with my life affected that, but I certainly do think it plays a part.

Bottom line, what ARE the expectations of desi parents regarding their children's romantic lives?

Doesn't that question really depend on what your parents are like? b/c i have neuvo-indian parents who really don't care that i date guys as long as i use good judgment. although... these are the same indian doctor parents who think i take birth control to help "regulate my cycle." so i dunno what that really says about them...but they've pretty much liked every guy i've dated--most of whom are what i like to term "random white guys." ["a random white guy" is a guy who seems to forget that you're indian...and just treats you like a really tan white person--it gets old after a while--especially when you have to keep explaining why you do things the way you do]...but alas i digress...

my parents just want me to be happy and ultimately settle down with someone whose personality compliments my own.

i dont know if that makes sense... my ability to think clearly is waning...

Jane, you're right - so many women in the older generation turn into wackos when they become mothers in law. It's almost like a corporate promotion. As young women, they get the following idea, maybe: yes you'll marry who we tell you to, yes you'll be docile and do everything your hubby tells you to, yes you'll sacrifice endlessly for your children, but at the end of it all - you'll be able to terrorize everyone else!

dharma queen:

In reponse to Post 59, I have this question: How are things when your parents visit you, as opposed to things when your in-laws visit you?

I think I agree with chai partly for bollywood culture.
But I blame indian parents who dont clearly understand the complexity of being indian. they never educate their kids.
there is culture,tradition,customs and religion which are completely intermingled in an indian which quiet frankly a desi does not bother to differentiate because he is busy trying to fit in. so when the kids grow up, the only thing that they are bombarded with is bollywood stuff which quiet frankly does not re-present typical indian values. its a easy fix instead of spending time and money to educate the kids in their native language or culture.
in fact I think speaking ones native(in india its mother tongue)language fluently would solve quiet a few problems as that would enable the kids to atleast connect with the relatives when in india or here, therby developing a bond with ones own. I have known fobs not even allowing their kids talk indian language in their homes as they were informed their english accents would change. Being a fob myself wondering whether my kids would have same issues as discussed here, I would like to start with language first.how many of you guys born here speak your native language fluently? I think once you start with language , one will better connect with ones culture and also understand the importance of keeping ones culture/traditions/customes alive. and one way to keep it alive is by marrying from same kind..

P.G. Wodehouse: I'm not sure what you're asking? What do you mean 'how are things?' Besides which, I don't have in laws. Please clarify.

Being a fob myself wondering whether my kids would have same issues as discussed here, I would like to start with language first.how many of you guys born here speak your native language fluently? I think once you start with language , one will better connect with ones culture and also understand the importance of keeping ones culture/traditions/customes alive. and one way to keep it alive is by marrying from same kind..

Language is way too superficial to carry the weight of cultural baggage. It's so many different things not just language that makes things complicated for ABDs. It's the mixed messages inside and outside the home. It's trying to juggle and balance our own expectations and our parents expectations and trying to fit in.

Do you really think that just because your kids will speak your language they will suddenly follow a path you choose for them and "marry their own kind"? I'd think you'd be in for a rude awakening if you think that simply teaching a language will make all the other cultural baggage go away for your children.

there is culture,tradition,customs and religion which are completely intermingled in an indian which quiet frankly a desi does not bother to differentiate because he is busy trying to fit in. so when the kids grow up, the only thing that they are bombarded with is bollywood stuff which quiet frankly does not re-present typical indian values. its a easy fix instead of spending time and money to educate the kids in their native language or culture.

I don't think this is very fair to my parent's generation. Our parents were (and are) doing what they thought was best for us and for themselves and mostly what they thought would make life easier. And it starts from even before we were born. What name should they give their child? They could give their child a totally Anglicized name, or maybe a desi name that would be easy to pronounce by others, or totally disregard it and give their child a desi name and let prononciation be damned. A friend of mine was going through this very issue recently. So it's not that our parents were out to make our lives difficult, it's just that they are struggling with the very same issues we are.

Do you really think that just because your kids will speak your language they will suddenly follow a path you choose for them and "marry their own kind"? I'd think you'd be in for a rude awakening if you think that simply teaching a language will make all the other cultural baggage go away for your children.

Yeah, I totally agree, it's much more complicated. Speaking another language creates another thing to worry about preserving.

Our parents were (and are) doing what they thought was best for us and for themselves and mostly what they thought would make life easier.

Absolutely. It's easy to blame parents for our screwups but at some point you gotta grow up and take responsibility for your own actions. Given the circumstances and the fact that they had no prior training (heck as if any parent has any prior training) they dealt with it in the way they knew best. I think a vast majority of the ABD generation albeit being conflicted has grown up to be extremely successful and has done very well. That speaks nothing but volumes of the good parenting they received.

Doesn't that question really depend on what your parents are like? b/c i have neuvo-indian parents who really don't care that i date guys as long as i use good judgment. although... these are the same indian doctor parents who think i take birth control to help "regulate my cycle." so i dunno what that really says about them...but they've pretty much liked every guy i've dated--most of whom are what i like to term "random white guys." ["a random white guy" is a guy who seems to forget that you're indian...and just treats you like a really tan white person--it gets old after a while--especially when you have to keep explaining why you do things the way you do]...but alas i digress...

my parents just want me to be happy and ultimately settle down with someone whose personality compliments my own.

i dont know if that makes sense... my ability to think clearly is waning...

I just asked the question because most of the people who post here really seem to have a lot of issues with their family. I did have a huge discussion over pre-marital sex with my parents but in the end I think they've realised that I'm old and informed enough to decide on my own.

Meena:

"(I'm only 19, so younger than most on this site I think)"

Yup.

"I just want a break...actually most of my friends just treat me like another white person, and I like it that way..."

Sigh... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - I'm sure you didn't actually mean to word this this way! I don't want to sound all-knowing, but your feelings may change as you grow older. Then again, they might not.....

Brownfrown:

"And in this city, with a pretty tiny population of "alterna" desis, that's not very easy to do. None of us have very many answers but it's comforting to be around other people with questions and angst and seemingly functional yet totally bewildering double lives."

Yes, and yes!!! You seem to have given a great deal of thought, and your comments show alot of depth and maturity. I appreciate this!

Meena,

It's incredible to be young :-) you don't always weight yourself down for what might be down the road. It may very well be that you will address all these issues as you get older. Or maybe not. It's not the end of the world either ways.

As for your observation about everyone here having parental issues I don't think that's true. Everyone has parental issues, we all deal with it our own way but I don't think anyone is losing sleep over it or feeling so burdened with it that they can't function normally. Everyone is simply discussing it in this medium because there is a thread in common. We all are desi.

Juggling family is part of life. You can't take a break from it and you can't walk away from it hoping it will go away. It's what makes us adults.

(***shit I just had a strange "OMG I've turned into my mother" moment***)

Meena,

Just wondering why, if you don't like being reminded of your heritage, and want to be treated like 'just another white person', you are blogging here?

Please don't read any criticism into this question - it just seems to me there must be some interest or need in engaging in these desi-only conversations. For me, there certainly is. I can honestly say that before last night's cluster of wine-fuelled rants, I hadn't any concrete sense that other people had IDENTICAL issues as mine. I have sympathetic non-desi friends, but they're not coming from the same place.

"You're not going to live with your family, you're going to live with your lover. Why should you involve the older generation in such a decision, when you are the only one who has to live with it."

This is the question that ran through my mind when I was a teenager. That was the time when I was constantly feuding with my parents (and I am talking hideous fights here), having sex for the first time, and being an all-around self-involved, rude brat. Now, in my mid-twenties, I am closer than ever with my parents (mom especially) and I have an overwhelming desire to be closer with my relatives, who mostly live in India.

Why involve my family or the older generation? I have many reasons why. One has to do with the way I grew up. I am an only child and my parents were the first people in their families to move to the US. None of our relatives moved here until 10 years ago! In that sense, we were very isolated from the rest of our family, even though we did our best to keep in touch. I don't want to raise a family that way. I want my children to be close to their grandparents, to have frequent family gatherings, etc. In my ideal world, I would want to future husband to be close to my parents and vice versa. I would also love it if he could communicate with my family in India, whom I love dearly and who don't speak English well. This is one primary reason I have considered marrying a desi guy -- so that he could truly be a part of my family. I feel it is selfish to ask the older members of my family to make the extra effort to get to know a white guy, when I know they already have insecurities about not being able to speak English. Finally, I have been known to make bad choices in men, and quite honestly, I trust my mom to be able to tell me when someone is right or wrong for me. I have done my best to be honest with her about who I am; though she hates certain parts of my past (and my present!), I know that she understands me and knows what I need in a partner -- maybe better than I do.

As for the "living with" part -- I actually hope to have my parents move in with me when they are older, if it is feasible. So no, I will not marry a meat eater if that means my mom would not want to live in my house when she is too old or sick to take care of herself. I'm not going to marry an atheist who criticizes my parents for being orthodox Hindu.

I won't let my parents make the decision for me, but after years of discounting their value and role in the issue of my marriage, I'm starting to change my views a bit. Just a bit ;)

Bobaiaa:

Being a fob myself wondering whether my kids would have same issues as discussed here, I would like to start with language first.how many of you guys born here speak your native language fluently? I think once you start with language , one will better connect with ones culture and also understand the importance of keeping ones culture/traditions/customes alive. and one way to keep it alive is by marrying from same kind..

Echoing JOAT, we can't blame out parents for everything either, even though sometimes you have to wonder at what in fact, is their damage. Part of it is our own confusion as to what makes sense for us - no ready paradigm exists that seems to encapsulate all the things we identify with/as and wish for and embrace and reject - our identies are nebulous and so are our desires. So while we're frustrated by familial pressure, I'm sure the families are just plain confused as to what it is that we want in the first place and why it seems so hard for us to find it and it be stable.

Meena - not to be patronizing even for a moment but I remember myself at 19. All I wanted was to date white bassplayers in punk bands, the more piercings the better - it was a fun time :) My friends still treat me like I'm "white" and to be honest, until very recently, I used to forget that I'm a visible minority and stare blankly at people when they seemed surprised at certain things that I was into or said or did. That, along with my fascination with bass players is changing.

dharma queen - are you out in western canada?

Milli,

I respect your honesty and the thought you've obviously put into this new turn in your life. I'm wondering, though, if you're not just in the return cycle of a boomerang throw. Sounds like you've suffered through the isolation of being an only child (me too), plus an only desi child abroad (me too), plus some bad relationships (me too, dammit). So, you're turning around and heading full speed into the desi model, thinking lots of family around and a desi guy who your parents like will solve everything. Consult Chandi above and others. It won't solve everything.

Brownfrown ki khabor?

Was raised in Calgary, but am now in Montreal. You?

dharma queen
ki?! well if you're in montreal, sister, you're in our "club", like it or not :)

email me bikhini@yahoo.ca for deets because we want YOU. hehe.

dq -- What I posted is just a snippet of what's been running through my head lately. I wouldn't say that I'm going full speed ahead with the traditional desi model at all (hard to communicate that via blog posts); but I guess what I'm saying is that I'm more open to aspects of that model, whereas in the past, I completely shunned it. Like brownfrown (my twin separated at birth?), I have dated my fair share of bass players and have more than a few piercings to show off. I'm an ex-raver for crying out loud!

You're right to call it a boomerang. I'm suspicious of my own recent turn and am treading cautiously. To be honest, I don't believe there is a desi guy out there for me. Beyond cultural and subcultural issues, I have met very few desi guys that I've been attracted to. Now that itself may be totally screwed up, but that's just been my experience. If I upped and married some I-banker and was living in the suburbs, I wouldn't trust myself not to run off with the hot and scruffy white cashier at the supermarket. :) Kidding, kidding.

I know that I have a lot of growing up to do and need to find some peace with myself, my family, my personal goals and dreams. It's just that for the first time, I feel confident that I will eventually reach a balance that leaves every party as happy as possible.

**All my friends know me as the biggest hater. I can't believe I'm posting this idealistic crap!**

How about the fact that most ABCDs come from relative affluence, so breaking away (via a non-desi hook-up/marriage)
carries something of a "disinheritance" threat?

How about the desi gays? What is the pattern there?

Neale

Lucky bastards!! Montreal is my fave Canuck city.... I've always wondered what it would be like living there, as a visible minority, and non-french last name. What I've heard from immigrant cab drivers scares me. I do love to visit though and travel around on the crazy colour-coded subway system!

"How about the desi gays?"

Good question about desi gays. I'm glad someone brought it up. Alot of people have suggested that you can't be selfish and ride off into the sunset, but if you were gay, what choice would you have? Again, unless you have pretty open-minded parents, there is little ability to compromise here. Someone's going to be unhappy.

OMG milli! I'm a total hater too! Seriously. I was commenting to someone that I've been cringing constantly while posting on this thread because I can't believe I'm being this personal or daring to even be... optimistic, but that's what this forum is for, huh? This is one of the most collectively personal threads I've read and it's been a real pleasure to hear about your stories and very comforting to hear your various opinions.

Milli (*cringing at personal revalations*) I went through the "Oh for crying out loud - just get me an arranged marriage, it'll take care of all the hassle" a few years ago and realised that uh, that was probably a little more than what I was asking for, really. Not only are there no guarantees on that end, you don't even get to be dreamers together in the beginning, before it all turns to crap, haha. I like pragamatism as much as the next hater and am highly suspicious of ideals of "true love", but I think that arranged marriages are just a little *too* contractual, no?

Milli - sounds like you know yourself well. Just don't be too hard on yourself. We all make bad choices in men - ALL of us.

Oh god, do we ever. If I had a toonie for every...
DQ - I'm always nervous about hotmail addresses - check your junkmail if you don't see any new mail from names you don't recognise :)

From what I understand, the arranged marriage thing is more like a fix-up for dating -- it just happens to be done by your parents. I have talked it over with my mom, and she agrees that the only expectation is that I would be courteous to that person. We could date or never talk again, marry or not. So I would basically be asking my parents to set me up on blind dates. That's no different, really, from using online dating sites or getting set up by friends. I am not having success meeting people on my own, why not expand the net, so to speak. The way things have gone, I'll probably meet someone on my own (probably a white guy); but I do have friends that have actually met great people through this "arranged dating service" so I'm willing to give it a try. Again, there is no expectation on the part of my parents that I follow through to the point of marriage with any of the people they suggest. And my mom definitely knows the extent of my alterna-desi-ness.

The other plus I see to going along with this is that there's a VERY good chance it WON'T work! And if that's the case, at least my parents will witness firsthand that this system is not ideal for me. So I meet a few losers. Better than wasting time arguing with my parents that I don't belong with a desi guy, because you never know, right? If it doesn't work then they'll have to be convinced once and for all that I should be left to my own devices. They've already resigned themselves to the fact that I'll be marrying a white guy anyway.

Mmhm. Oh, I've been on those. And you're right... it's really no different from going out on any first, exploratory date. And the fact that they were (clearly) unsuccessful has both to do with, I think, our different outlooks and quite simply, my inability to drum up any kind of interest in someone I don't really know all that well or have any kind of motivation to pursue this virtual stranger. But, I have to admit that the world "marriage" freaks me out too much to allow me to act with any degree of sanity on these dates in the first place.

Like anything else, I guess it's all about the luck of the draw and remembering that what Vikram (my friend and I took to nicknaming any "arranged boy" Vikram,) may not actually always be telling his mom or his aunty or his biodata the whole story in the first place - so really, you could luck out big and he could in fact be a lot more interesting than his profile might suggest. I've seen some very happy couples come out of this arrangement too and I really don't knock it, especially if you have a clear idea of what you want and what you don't.

For reasons of scale, I understand that the alternative is usually a "white guy" - but just be open-minded about all ethnicities (I'm sure you guys are - I'm just stating this to be very clear). If you don't find the brown alterna-boy of your dreams, you may find an awesome guy from another background who isn't white. That's the beauty of living in a multi-cultural society.

From what I understand, the arranged marriage thing is more like a fix-up for dating -- it just happens to be done by your parents. I have talked it over with my mom, and she agrees that the only expectation is that I would be courteous to that person. We could date or never talk again, marry or not. So I would basically be asking my parents to set me up on blind dates.

see its only a fix-up for dating or arranged dating if you're in on the arrangement... it definitely takes a nasty turn when you are in india and all of a sudden young men just happen to be coming to the house for chai... then, its not fun. it's not fun when random men start emailing you or their parents email you for a picture. i honestly feel that no one knows me better than my parents so if they happen to find out about some nice guy that they think i'll like... i'm all about it, but for the love of god--WOULD YOU TELL THE PERSON BEFORE YOU START MAKING INQUIRIES!!!!

incidently milli, i LOVE the term "alterna-desi-ness!!!!" it's great.

meena, i feel like you're getting a lot of flak for what you said about wanting to just blend. if i look at my 19 year old self, she's nodding her head in agreement with you. i remember just wishing i was white when i was younger b/c i felt like everything is just easier. i didn't [and still don't] like being seen as a walking talking version of 'wiki-india' who was expected to know everything about a nation of 1 billion people. but that feeling changed over time. i love my desi-self. i love the fact that i have a rich cultural heritage and so much history to reflect upon. incidently, you must have pretty modern parents to think that you're old enough to decide on your own. the closest i've ever gotten to a conversation about sex with my parents [i'm 25 and they're both doctors] is "hand holding leads to sex." when i heard that i just burst out laughing and walked out of the room. :)

anyways meena feel free to email me any time cusailgurl(at)yahoo.com

All Mixed Up -- I'm too much of a hater to ever laugh out loud, but I must admit that your post did cause a chuckle or two to escape from my lips!

Brownfrown (and everyone) -- I'm relatively new to this site. Or rather, not the site, but actually taking the time to post and read comments. Is this really the first time such an open discussion has come up? I have to say again that I am SO relieved to read about other people's struggles with these issues, whether they be similar to mine or not.

Wish I had more desi (girl)friends who lived in my area that I could talk about this stuff with. All my best desi friends are boys with parents who could care less about who they date or marry! But of course.

"meena, i feel like you're getting a lot of flak for what you said about wanting to just blend."

I don't think she got alot of flak. I think it's the very fact that many commenters felt sort of the same at 19 is the reason why some have mentioned your feelings might change as you get older.... without being all "been there, done that" about it. But just in case, I hope you don't feel (patronized) that way Meena. :-)

I did have a huge discussion over pre-marital sex with my parents

DAMN. I'm 26. My parents still think I'm asexual. In fact, reading through the comments, what about the "secret boyfriend" phenom in desi kids? I dated a guy for 2.5 years that my parents didn't know about. It was just too much potential drama, I didn't want to have to deal with that hurdle unless the dude was really worth it (which he proved later he wasn't- 'nother story, 'nother blog)I know I couldn't have been the only one on this thread keeping secret other lives into their mid-20s.

I liked reading the thread on the "alterno-desi" - I feel similar...it's interesting to see how the mainstream desis go for marrying other desis, and the alterno-desis go through this whole self-identity discovery process to realized that they want to date desis too, but for entirely different reasons.

I like how this thread on dating turned towards talking about family...kinda shows in some subliminal way how important family really is.

Speaking as a dope-ass desi woman that knows a lot of other dope-ass desi women, does anyone else feel like there is a shortage of the equally dope-ass desi guys out there? i.e. there seems to be a lot more "alterno-desi" girls, then there are "alterno-desi" guys? Anyone else have a theory on this trend?

I'm glad someone out there is listening to Desi Dilemma too!

"Speaking as a dope-ass desi woman that knows a lot of other dope-ass desi women, does anyone else feel like there is a shortage of the equally dope-ass desi guys out there? i.e. there seems to be a lot more "alterno-desi" girls, then there are "alterno-desi" guys? Anyone else have a theory on this trend?"

Yeah, that's interesting, innit? I can't verify if that's true or not, but it seems to be a trend. Maybe being the preferred sex in many desi families, they have it somewhat better, and maybe (just a theory here) less likely to rebel???

Alterna-desi guys do exist, even if not in outward appearance. Wouldn't Abhi and Manish and a few other posters (PropaMcGandhi - bestnameever) qualify?

"does anyone else feel like there is a shortage of the equally dope-ass desi guys out there? i.e. there seems to be a lot more "alterno-desi" girls, then there are "alterno-desi" guys? Anyone else have a theory on this trend?"

Taz, I was going to post this exact same question, except I have the opposite take! I've lived in two relatively multi-culti cities, and when I was a teenager, there was a dearth of dope-ass desis, in general. I am still the first person in my community to have sex, do drugs, have piercings, shave my head, go to undergound parties etc etc oh what a bad girl I was. Anyhoo. These days, I roll with a pretty multi-culti crew where actually half of us are desi. I'm the only girl. I feel like I've met a LOT of alterna-desi boys (not that I've been attracted to them, or that they've been single) and very rarely do I meet similar girls. What is up?

OK! Must stop procrastinating!! Damn you guys :)

OK, here I go again. Very interesting to read about return-to-dating-desis kind of situation. Having seen my parents' arranged marriage last for 44 years while mine didn't even make it to the end of the decade, I wonder about these things--also because I will be raising a daughter in this culture. I think one way of finding, locating, and expressing identity is to return to the community. The comfort of not having to explain every ritual, mannerism, cultural reflex is also huge. BUT, don't undermine the part of you that has grown up expecting a romantic, companionate core to a relationship. Funny thing is, you can't be sure where it will come from, the friendship that is. My parents have a wonderful companionship, a genuine respect for each other. It can happen through any means, in any institution, and can fail to happen in a 'love match.' Another problem with arranged marriages, and I am by no means close-minded about it, is that the grounds of negotiation is sometimes different. It's, well, more cultural and pragmatic than you want it to be. It's not always based on your primacy as the other half of an equal partnership. Can you stand that? And back to chai's comment# 54. It's really true. As my father once put it disgustedly to my more excitable younger brother, "hum apke hain kaun has totally ruined you and your imagination." So even though he is somewhat traditional, he thinks Bollywood paints an unrealistic picture of the harmony in families. Families also oppress, silence, and perpetuate terrible gender stereotypes. It's a painful negotiation with them and even though I am committed to family, there is a certain amount of 'traditional' crap, old mother-in-law tapes for instance, that we should and must collectively throw out of the window. They are ridiculous and disrespectful and putting up with things like that in the name of culture is a misguided product of a multicultural logic of US society, ie. 'culture' as exoticized, ahistorical, unchanging set of practices helps you express your identity. I've learnt to be more open about my feminist beliefs and I always remind people who talk is simple dichotomies that I learnt most of it in India. And I will add, that families and people who love you, also evolve and grow and change with you (as my parents have) in the best case.

"And I will add, that families and people who love you, also evolve and grow and change with you (as my parents have) in the best case."

Well said. Mine certainly has.

Milli
I'm also too new to this site to really know, but it certainly feels like the first really open discussion I've participated in.

Meena
I want to second what Milli's already said - I hear you, and my 19 year old self is also wondering why the hell these people are this obsessed with their browness, alterna or otherwise.

AllMixedUp
Oh. God. I especially liked when I got a letter from my parents in the mail and I was all excited, only to open it and find... a smiling picture of some man I'd never laid eyes on and a thick biodata outlining his many illustrious years working for a US arms manufacturing company. Sweet.

Taz
Thanks for starting this thread, first off. Secondly, I think the dopeass gender imbalance might have something to do with privilage. When you're a man who (as Milli has pointed out) can date whomever you want with a lot more ease, wear what you want, come and go as you please, and somehow automatically have a weight to your words that many of our sistas have had to fight for (consciously or not), the same motivation to be critical and dope just aren't there.
So saying, I do know a few pretty dope boys and SM has a good share of them - many of whose posts I read with much interest and some of whom I have been inspired by. It's not easy being a brown woman, but it's not easy being a critical, feminist brown man either and I give props to those of you out there who are :)

Neale,
I've been wondering about the queer brown thing too - and I wonder if this a queer-positive enough space for queer desis to post? I'd be interested to know about that particular struggle too. And I bet there are a lot of dopeass boys and girls among ya.

In fact, reading through the comments, what about the "secret boyfriend" phenom in desi kids? I dated a guy for 2.5 years that my parents didn't know about. It was just too much potential drama, I didn't want to have to deal with that hurdle unless the dude was really worth it...

Ooh. Been there, done that with one serious one. I was away at college, very easy to hide your lifestyle from your p-units.

It was just awful though. I felt so guilty anytime I was even with my parents because I was constantly reminded of what a liar I was. I knew it would break my mom's heart to find out. I ended it, only partly because he wasn't worth it, but also because we were getting serious and I met his parents, and he just didn't understand why I had to keep him a secret. He was compliant with my wishes of course but I think he was just confused by the whole thing. Towards the end it came up a lot and I think that strain contributed to the end of the relationship as well.

To be honest, there were feelings of sadness, etc upon first breaking up but mostly an overwhelming sense of relief that I didn't have to keep lying anymore. At that time I first made the decision that I wanted someone Indian just to keep the peace in my family (I felt like my parents sacrificed so much for us kids, I could at least do that much for them). I didn't really date anyone for a long time after that, just because, well...when you restrict yourself to brown men, it's a matter of numbers!

I'm a little older now but my reasons for going brown are a little different: it's a matter of personal connection, mutual understanding etc. Also, I want someone who my family can accept and get close to. Of course it's easy for me to say all this right now when I'm at a time in my life when I'd rather be single, who knows what will happen in the next 10 years, but the real deal-maker for me is this: My cultural heritage is very important to me and if I did meet a non-desi who rocked my world, I know that he would have to learn about and respect my culture if I were to consider marrying him etc.

(I don't think this is a purely desi phenomenon either -- it applies to any 1st genner. My best friend is Spanish-Filipina and she says she wants either a Filipino or someone who can learn and appreciate her culture, because it's that important to her.)

Oh yeah and as for the secret bf - whatchyatalkin' about Taz? They're *all* secret. Like I need that kind of trouble. Even if they've come to pick me up at my house they're always "just a friend mom, sheesh".

I stopped hiding my boyfriends from my mom around age 22. I never totally kept them a secret -- always need some Mom love when I had a broken heart -- but I started actually discussing my relationships with my mom, and she met (and liked!) my last serious boyfriend. Being open with her was so hard at first. Her first reaction was "I don't want to know about it." And of course, she thinks I am a virgin and will call me at least four times a year to confirm that fact. It's the one lie I tell to her. But I am upfront about drinking and drug use, and tell her when I am dating someone new. It has really strengthened our relationship. She has given me some of the best advice during rough patches in relationships. I'm single now, but she'll ask me every now and then if I'm dating anyone or if I've met anyone interesting. It's cute :) We went through MANY years of fighting over my dating life, but she's really come around. It never ceases to amaze me.

randomly,

right now the biggest advocate for me dating desi guys... is ironically not my parents but my 21 year old brother. he thinks that half the reason my relationships don't work out is b/c i don't try hard enough to meet indian guys so i end up settling for white guys. we've been warring about this particular topic for a couple months now.

i was just wondering if anyone else is getting pressure date within their community from someone other than their parents?

I'm a little older now but my reasons for going brown are a little different: it's a matter of personal connection, mutual understanding etc. Also, I want someone who my family can accept and get close to. Of course it's easy for me to say all this right now when I'm at a time in my life when I'd rather be single, who knows what will happen in the next 10 years, but the real deal-maker for me is this: My cultural heritage is very important to me and if I did meet a non-desi who rocked my world, I know that he would have to learn about and respect my culture if I were to consider marrying him etc.

Rupa, i'm getting to that point now. i dont want to end up with a non-desi who can't deal with being a minority from time to time [i.e. when we attend some desi event] or who can't understand things about my culture/heritage or why its important to me to visit india as much as possible, etc.

I love Desi Dilemmas and was super pleased to see this post. Yay Smitha, yay Taz, and yay Desi Dilemmas.

Speaking as a dope-ass desi woman that knows a lot of other dope-ass desi women, does anyone else feel like there is a shortage of the equally dope-ass desi guys out there? i.e. there seems to be a lot more "alterno-desi" girls, then there are "alterno-desi" guys? Anyone else have a theory on this trend?

YES. I think this isn't desi-specific, though. I think, in general, there are way more dope-ass women than men. You see this phenomena everywhere in social justice organizing and alterno/hipster circles. Also, when you do get guys who seem cool, how many of them end up being totally sleazy in their dating & gender politics? Not to be the flag-bearer for the bitter parade, but I will be floored the day I meet a critical mass of bomb ass, totally legit, live it like you say it, alterno (desi or otherwise) guys.

But maybe part of this is that I (unconsciously) look for people who kind of "signify" alterno-ness. MAYBE there is a little alterno-desi personality hiding behind some J-Crew/Gap sweater somewhere that I'm totally writing off b/c he doesn't look hipster at first pass.

Speaking as a dope-ass desi woman that knows a lot of other dope-ass desi women, does anyone else feel like there is a shortage of the equally dope-ass desi guys out there? i.e. there seems to be a lot more "alterno-desi" girls, then there are "alterno-desi" guys? Anyone else have a theory on this trend?

i've got a theory. it applies to all immigrant communities. its a version of the dual minority dilemma (which is my favorite dilemma). every parent has to deal with the generational gap, the fears and the unknown that come with time -- the "when i was your age" blah blah and all the misunderstandings and miscommunications inherent in this ever-changing pop culture. it must be tough to raise children in a world that’s different from what you remember...

but immigrant parents have to deal with an extra set of complications: an unfamiliar culture, an unfriendly society, a menacing melting pot. no one wants to get lost in the melting pot. to our immigrant parents, preserving desi culture is crucial. but while society is changing back on the Sub Continent, most of our parents are clinging to the culture as it was at the time they left.

so, while raising us here and now, they're trying to preserve the culture back there, back then. and the key to cultural preservation, to survival (yes, we're like a species) is babies. our babies.

in most societies, the task of raising children falls primarily to the mother. we will teach them our values, our language, our religion... etc. to do that properly, we (women) must be *steeped* in these things. we have to be perfect. thus 1.5 and 2nd generation girls are expected to be the personification of all things desi, so that she may bat her large black eyes and seduce the mother-in-law whose son will mold her desiness into the child that will carry the culture into the next generation.

all the son need to is not get some other chic pregnant. because in most societies, while the woman carries the culture, the man carries legitimacy. so the woman can be perfect, but she cant do anything with all her perfectness until a man agrees to legitimate her with his sperm.

so. woman's burden: be PERFECT in the eyes of the future mother-in-law.
the dude's burden: don't knock up that white chic.

I think its this difference in burden that yields the imbalance between dope-ass girls and boys. Having heavier expectations forced on us from a younger age, I think girls just have more experience confronting issues of self identity v cultural identity.

and, i think, its that (what?) knowledge of self, determination thats brings the dope-ass-ness.

How about the fact that most ABCDs come from relative affluence, so breaking away (via a non-desi hook-up/marriage)carries something of a "disinheritance" threat?

Honestly how many parents in the west with usually 1 - 3 kids would really disown their children? Majority of the ABD's are successful and have done well for themselves. At some point it kicks into the parents no matter how much the kid has crewed up as a teenager. Hell mine did a 180. At some point as they grow old and feel the natural pull towards their children it all comes in full cycle. I've seen friends who were disowned by parents because they choose to get married after being together for nearly 13 years (he's muslim, she's hindu). Now two kids later the parents came around and are just fine.

Perhaps I'm idealistic but I don't think the "financial" pull is what brings most kids back or makes them compromise. I'd like to believe that it is still about wanting a happy family and making peace with them. It is possible that the financial pull is larger in India where people aren't totally truly independent? I could be wrong.

And I will add, that families and people who love you, also evolve and grow and change with you (as my parents have) in the best case.

Absolutely. I've seen this with my own parents where I once thought it was something I couldn't even fathom. My parents surprise me sometimes. The fact that after being divorced for 25 years they have come to be friends respect each other and my mom and stepmom are now friends and sat side by side at my stepgrandfather's funeral recently sans my dad was something I couldn't have imagined in my wildest dreams. I failed to give my parents the benefit of the doubt in the past and they proved me wrong every step of the way.

Speaking of alterna desis I think there is one thing when it comes to "parents know best" and "an arranged situation isn't so bad" that no one is speaking about. Sex. Why is it that more ABD men will go to India and get married and have no issues but women won't do it? Especially after they've tasted freedom here and pretty much dated and screwed anyone they wanted to?

Because I strongly think that women who have tasted that freedom prefer to test drive their "Vikrams" whereas men don't care about that notion because the pressure to measure up and please and perform still falls on the guys and not women. Women can learn. This only dawned on me recently when I was having a discussion with my friend John who is considering going to India to get married because he wants to marry within his community and hasn't found someone he'd like to marry on his own yet. When I brought up the sex issue his take was "She's from India she hasn't been around like the girls here and doesn't know better, and she's a woman how hard can it be to please her?"

Our parents didn't know better, I think our generation in the west does. But I don't know if desi women in India are so clueless.

Another thing to mirror espressa's view, the dope-ass alterna desis are just really good with their disguises :-) because the burden to carry it outward on their sleeves and have to deal with a whole other shit load of problems/questions is far too much. It's best to carry it in privacy, wear the J Crew sweater on the outside and sport their tats, piercings and wild side in private.

JOAT -- hell yes, I've got to test drive my Vikram or Brad or whoever the hell it is! No other way around it.

Left up to my mom, I'd be saddled with some nerdy virgin with bad hair and big ears. (Although, looking at my last ex, that ain't so far off the mark -- and let's just say the test drive made me take that baby home!)

Milli,
It's funny because while I've been almost neurotically secretive about most of my relationships, with the most traumatic heartbreaky one, it couldn't help but come out and my mother was not just supportive, but incredibly insightful. Especially given the weirdness of the relationship itself - it floored me that she was actually all "been there, done that".
Sometimes I guess I forget that so much of the raving is just a lot of rhetoric and boundary-pushing and when you least expect it, they are full of support and good advice and concern.
This of course doesn't mean that it's been any kind of lasting change, haha. On a daily basis, it's somehow still stressful and awkward with the dating issue, despite the frequent "so... meet anyone nice?".

I have a question for the females who have dated a white boy. Do other desi men get upset when they see you with a white boy or they don't have a problem with it. I know in some races men really get upset when the girl of there race is with a man of a another

Since most of my best friends are white males I have no problem at all with this. Infact a once I even have had the role of the desi information guide for my white malefriend who dated desi girl and would ask questions about indian culture.

However when it comes to this topic, one must bring up the sad story of Amandeep Atwal who was stabbed to death by father for dating a white girl.

For those of you don't know, Amandeep Atwal was 17 year old punjabi girl who had a white boyfriend. They were able to hide from her parents untill one day they had minor car accident. After that her father told her that he wished that she had died. And a few months later he stabbed her to death. The amazing thing is that at same time Amandeep brother had a white girlfriend and yet his father had no problem with that.

Amandeep sick father get 16 years in jail for his crime, yet the rest of there family and sikh and punjabi coummunity leaders spoke at the trial for him saying he just made a honest mistake. Nobody in the punjabi coummunity spoke at all for Amandeep at all. And there are many punjabi who think Amandeep father did the right thing. That's just sick

I confess I'm shocked with the comments here. I always believed in the mantra that a good decision is any decision where one is willing to deal with all its consequences. Once you are onboard with this idea then all the issues of identity, cultural pressures etc. melt away, and you just go w/ your instincts. I suppose its a little easier for guys considering that most of the comments here are from women. I once summarily dismissed a friend when she expressed precisely the confusion discussed in this thread. I feel awful for her now. Anyway, now that I'm wizened up I'd like to throw a rant at the desi women-Test drive your Vikrams all you want but please don't give us the "not exclusive" bs or is this just true in Manhattan? In any case, its downright insulting! Thanks.

This only dawned on me recently when I was having a discussion with my friend John who is considering going to India to get married because he wants to marry within his community and hasn't found someone he'd like to marry on his own yet. When I brought up the sex issue his take was "She's from India she hasn't been around like the girls here and doesn't know better, and she's a woman how hard can it be to please her?"

Wow. This whole "go back to the desh and bring me back a woman" phenomenon is v. interesting to me. I don't see this really being an option for us women though.

I met a cute guy at a wedding in India a few months ago and my aunt was joking about setting us up together (I was secretly thrilled, but I have a feeling an arranged date bodes differently in Gujarat than it does in Illinois) and my OWN MOTHER said "Absolutely not, that would never work out." Meaning, all of my cousins gave up their jobs and became housewives at their in-laws' homes after marriage, and my mom knows there's no way in hell I'm doing that. Meanwhile, my mom was stalking a pretty girl at the same wedding because she wanted to introduce her to my older brother.

Once you are onboard with this idea then all the issues of identity, cultural pressures etc. melt away, and you just go w/ your instincts. I suppose its a little easier for guys considering that most of the comments here are from women.

Yay for educating yourself :) In general woman are expected to be the bearers of culture because we have the babies, so ... yep.

Do other desi men get upset when they see you with a white boy or they don't have a problem with it.

yes.

So I had a group multi-ethnic (South Asian/Asian mainly) friends when I lived in DC, and I found out a year after I broke up with the white boyfriend that everyone had strong dislike for him. Hate in the, "taking our women" sense...they secretly called him a "chadbrad". It was slightly obnoxious in my eyes, (if they didn't like him they could have told me sooner) but, not due to the peer pressure but due to the reasons stated in this thread, these days, I would prefer to not date a chadbrad, and have strong preference for the "alterna-desi" type...

I'd like to throw a rant at the desi women-Test drive your Vikrams all you want but please don't give us the "not exclusive" bs or is this just true in Manhattan?

I dunno about the non-exclusive thing- I think it's just living in an inner city with this heightened sense of anti-commitment indicitive of the liberated Sex in the City generation of women. My gurls in the suburbs do not act that way...Shoot, since when are guys about being exclusive anyways? :-)

but please don't give us the "not exclusive" bs or is this just true in Manhattan...

I think Manhattan/NYC is messed up and the worst place for people looking for more then a roll in the hay. They say the chances of a woman dying in a plane crash are higher here then finding a man. Hehe go figure. The problem is that this city makes people addicted to short term relationships and the abundunce of too many available people makes it difficult I think for people to commit. Everyone is looking for something "not exclusive". Maybe it's a big city thing. Your guess is as good as mine.

massive props to all the sisters speaking here. thank you for having the conversation in a space where we can all hear and learn from it.

there are clearly fundamental differences by gender in life experience for ABCDs/1.5s etc. this thread contains evidence and also some good lines on explanation. no need to repeat them here as brownfrown, espressa, metric ang and other have been breaking it down right & exact.

i'm not surprised that alterna-desiness expresses itself far more in women than in men. i think the SM readership extends into the alterna-desi world but not as far as it might. particularly those who are in same-sex relationships, and those for whom the universe of potential partners is not limited to "desi" and "white."

i think we'd stand to learn a lot from people with those experiences and i am always hoping they will manifest themselves on these threads. anyway, a big shout-out to them.

a couple months ago when i was guesting here we had a thread on the politics of mixing, i'd recommend it to any more recent arrivals. speaking for my own mixed-race self and, i suspect, others who took part in that conversation, i just want to give the (i know, incredibly profound) advice that either way, it can be all good... as long as you have "that (what?) knowledge of self, determination" that espressa, channeling mos def and talib kweli, spoke of.

that's the real work there.

peace

Do other desi men get upset when they see you with a white boy or they don't have a problem with it.

hahaha... to answer this i reference comment 97 [which i wrote--i'm such a dork quoting myself]:

right now the biggest advocate for me dating desi guys... is ironically not my parents but my 21 year old brother. he thinks that half the reason my relationships don't work out is b/c i don't try hard enough to meet indian guys so i end up settling for white guys. we've been warring about this particular topic for a couple months now.

to elaborate: my brother calls my b/fs 'goras' behind their back in an incredibly rude "if-you-were-dating-an-indian-guy-i'd-respect-him-more" kind of way. i think its obnoxious and totally uncalled for--seeing as he hasn't actually met either of the 2 guys i've dated since i've moved to ATL.

in my opinion, if desi guys want to criticize my choice in men, my question to them is "WHERE ARE YOU??? AND WHY AREN'T YOU DATING ME???" oh wait that's right... you don't actually like me, you just like to criticize me. well boo to that. boo!

in my opinion, if desi guys want to criticize my choice in men, my question to them is "WHERE ARE YOU??? AND WHY AREN'T YOU DATING ME???" oh wait that's right... you don't actually like me, you just like to criticize me. well boo to that. boo!

Ha! Ha ha ha!! I feel like desi guys aren't into me too. Maybe it's because I'm so freakishly tall. And...that's all I'll say about that before this degenerates into a "misadventures in dating" thread.

metric ang made a good point about desi vs. white vs. people of other ethnicities. I've dated guys of different ethnicities, but I do live in a very multicultural society and I haven't felt any weirdness about it yet (then again, I'm only Meena's age and I know I have a ways to go before realising the 'implications', if you will, of my relationships). From a teenage perspective, the friends I hang out with don't really see interracial dating as anything out of the ordinary, but the desi friends I have, I've noticed, are much more judgmental about it. It also has to do with how long they've been living in a Western society, and where (by this I mean growing up in an average neighbourhood vs. a somewhat 'ghettoized' one).

I have to say that I do somewhat understand what Meena said, although she may not have meant the following exactly. I think it would be easier to deal with parents and broach the concept of dating with them if I were white. I'm proud of being desi and I'm very comfortable in my own skin, it's just the cultural implications that come along with it. Instead of dating being a normal thing to do, it becomes something out-of-the-ordinary that everyone jumps on. I realise that this may be a comment specific to how long your parents have been abroad, or how open-minded they are, but still...sometimes I wish that it was easier, and that everything I did/want to do wasn't or isn't a stretch beyond these invisible boundaries.

but immigrant parents have to deal with an extra set of complications: an unfamiliar culture, an unfriendly society, a menacing melting pot. no one wants to get lost in the melting pot. to our immigrant parents, preserving desi culture is crucial. but while society is changing back on the Sub Continent, most of our parents are clinging to the culture as it was at the time they left.

Well said espressa. This is true not only with Indian parents..but also with FOBs like me (who've been in the US for 3-4 years). When it comes to Indian values, culture etc, most of my friends are stuck in the 90s. They've not experienced the seeping change that has been occuring in India over these years. They've been in the US for 5-6 years now and visit India once a year. All of them do realize the changes that have taken place in the Indian society..taboos have vanished, people are more "open-minded", parents are not that "strict". But the sad part is that they haven't changed....for them, the benchmark is still the 90s. In a few years, these very people will get married ...and I can imagine the kind of friction that they'll have with their kids :(

For FOBs like me (..been here for 6 yrs..so I'm not that fresh), it's necessary to get oneself "updated" with the contemproray desi tradition..changing face of Indian society...its rules and morals. The best way to do this is to keep your eyes and ears open (the next time you visit the homeland) ..and not dismiss everything as "western influence".

@27, puneet,

Studies and Razib have shown

ah, nice!! :)

while i don't think i have had much problems in this regard, it has been very interesting for me to read this thread.

for various reasons, there was not enough family around me or involved with me to pull me in different ways. not just in this aspect but in almost any matter. frankly, i did not like it when i was younger. but i have grown to like it, and now when i see some of the relatives i have---thank god for the way things turned out! and going by the comments on this thread, maybe i have other hidden benefits too. well!

Hey, Doc Rupa - how tall is "freakishly tall" ? I went to school with a 7' Pakistani female basketball player, but I don't think that's what you mean ...

Brownfrown said,
"I've been wondering about the queer brown thing too - and I wonder if this a queer-positive enough space for queer desis to post? I'd be interested to know about that particular struggle too. And I bet there are a lot of dopeass boys and girls among ya....."

The gay community is very specific as to what turns them on physically. There's "chubby chasers" and "silver fox chasers" and "rice queens".
I can vouch for the presence of "basmati queens" among the general Amrikan poulation. But what physical/ethnic traits turn desi gays on? instinctively?

Am i still "on thread"?

Neale

I've been wondering about the queer brown thing too - and I wonder if this a queer-positive enough space for queer desis to post? I'd be interested to know about that particular struggle too. And I bet there are a lot of dopeass boys and girls among ya.

i think the SM readership extends into the alterna-desi world but not as far as it might. particularly those who are in same-sex relationships, and those for whom the universe of potential partners is not limited to "desi" and "white." i think we'd stand to learn a lot from people with those experiences and i am always hoping they will manifest themselves on these threads. anyway, a big shout-out to them.

wow, this is a fantastic discussion... to tack on to it a little:
I think the queer faction is as varied as it is...anything - experiences hinge on how our families react...
I have a friend who came out last fall, to the 'rents and all.
They're fine with it, his mom says "as long as he has a good education" etc, (some stuff never changes!)
I've got an uberconservative family that nearly disowned my straight-shootin sis. for deciding to marry
her sweetie (who's a self described backwards oreo), so I'm in enough closets that I've cancelled dating altogether.
my mum'n'dad have aged a lot over my sis, and i think if i let loose my inner alterna, bi-style,
I don't think they could handle it. So, really, it depends, like it seems to in all other instances.

NinjaQ:

WHOA. I'm only 5'10" barefoot but that seems to be freakishly tall compared to all desi males excluding all the ones I'm related to. But I think your friend wins that contest!

Um, wow Neale - when I was responding to your post before, I thought you were actually seriously "wondering" about the gay desi community. It looks like you have it all figured out - what with the chubby chasers, rice queens et al.

You're not serious when you say The gay community is very specific as to what turns them on physically. You aren't presuming to speak for the entire "gay community", right? No, I thought not.

But what physical/ethnic traits turn desi gays on? instinctively? Instinctively? Like what is the magic formula that fits the needs of someone with both the gay gene and the brown-skin gene? Like what kind of man would a gay desi baby frantically crawl to if given half a chance?
Don't you think that individual agency, cultural upbringing, one's specific sexualization process and personal taste have anything to do with? Or are you suggesting gay men and women are spared from/devoid of all these factors and just blindly follow the "instincts" specific to their respective ethnicities?

Clear as Mud - following on the um, sex-discouraging families (to say the least) many of us come from... I often wonder how one *would* explain the term "bisexual" in a sanitized way so as not to freak the parents out because it's so in-you-face and undeniably about sex. Parents of straight or gay - identified kids can still delude themselves that it's just about "friendships" before marriage. But bi... I would think that's maybe even harder than coming out as gay. But then, again parents also don't have to be privvy to every one of our sexual exploits - which goes for most families, desi or non.

I don't know if this is taking things too off-topic, but I'd like to raise a question about abortion related to dating. I had an abortion when I was 22. The father was a white man. My parents knew we were dating. At the time, the main reason I had the abortion is because it was simply not the right time for me. I would not have made a suitable mother; I couldn't imagine giving them (it was twins) away; and I (foolishly?) didn't give my boyfriend any say in the matter. Were I to become pregnant now, I would want to keep the baby, but the one and only thing that would stop be would be my parents' disapproval. I would shame the entire family, it would be horrible if I got pregnant by a non-Indian, and I honestly believe my mother would be driven to suicide. She's very emotionally fragile. If any of you, males or females, feel comfortable discussion your own possible experiences with abortion, or with the way your family's view of your relationships would affect a decision like that, I'd love to hear.

To clarify: my parents did not know about the abortion and they probably believe that I am a virgin.

brownfrown,
On the queer thingy...

No, I have not figured out anything and thank god for that. There is so much fun in the chase.
I just think the gay folk are more forthcoming and specific when it comes to what floats their boat. If you have not, check out the gay personals. Inspect the "drop down lists". But after that? Like you, i am wondering what is next thing? Does cultural upbringing matter when you are so far removed from
the expectations of your family and friends? And therefore, does it lead to less interference and more honesty ?

Does cultural upbringing matter when you are so far removed from the expectations of your family and friends? And therefore, does it lead to less interference and more honesty ?

Dude, I dunno. I mean, I can see how you are trying to angle the question, but there is a huge cultural componenet to the queer South Asian movement. There the organization Trikone, an LGBT org for desis, and I'm on the listserve for Desi Queers in So Cal, a list that basically exhanges messages of activism type stuff affecting the queer desi community in L.A.They just had a Kulture Kulcha show on Oakland (trikone did). There's also the young Kashish Chopra who I blogged about earlier that is gay and a Miss India congeniality. I don't think that being gay and desi makes them further removed- I think it's just another thing added to their list, and that they are trying to figure out how to come to terms with their race and sexual identity, the same as the rest of us confused desis.

woman's burden: be PERFECT in the eyes of the future mother-in-law. the dude's burden: don't knock up that white chic.

Um, no. Guy's burden: pay the rent. Girl's burden: expore her free-love-art and marry someone with money.

I think its this difference in burden that yields the imbalance between dope-ass girls and boys.

Exactly.

Taz,
I am referring to more personal choices. If a gay desi gets his jollies from messing with sweaty truckers, it does not matter how many desi cultural organizations he belongs to. If he is to be honest with himself, won't he be happier (assuming it is legal) hanging out at truck stops than coffee shops discussing activism?

Neale

PS. Have you checked out the NYT mag. article on the Spanish writer Goytisolo?

Temporarily-in-disguise:
I haven't had an abortion, but a close friend (non-desi) had one and it was a very painful experience. Can't imagine what it was like for you at such a young age. My only comment to you is - do you want to spend your whole life hostage to someone else's emotional fragility or twisted sense of what is shameful? You'd be surprised what people can deal with if they have to. In the meanwhile, don't make yourself pay for others' weaknesses or stupidity.

neale, can't find the link. do you have it? (we are an LA Times household here)

Once those aunties see those light-eyed gorgeous creatures, its possible that all may be forgiven...

Ech. This hypocricy and racism always gets to me. I hate that babies get turned into consolation prizes. So tough on some bi-racial kids--idealized by one parent's culture and exoticized by the other parent's culture. I don't know enough of them to generalize, but in my experience the half-white half-desi kids have ended up either as extremely offensive individuals who learn to co-opt and exploit both cultures in the worst ways, or they end up as the coolest people in the world, acutely aware and expressive of their identity politics in ways that are artistic, respectful and dignified.

And another thing about these "light-eyed gorgeous creatures"- Why do we always assume the spouse is white? What's the consolation when the baby ends up darker than you, with a wide nose and burly hair? Seems to me that desi women, if they're dating non-desi men, are dating only white men. Why is that? Do non-desi men of color have their own cultural baggage that we don't want to deal with because our own is quite enough?

Taz,
Go to nytimes.com (free registration). The article is in this Sunday's magazine section.

Neale

Temporarily-in-disguise:

Please ignore the nasty judgmental idiotic ranting of Not So Much - who is simply too much. I love the way nutcase fundamentalists rant and rave about selfishness and callousness while exhibiting both qualities to the nth degree.

As I grow older however, I think my eyes are being opened to the existence of brown guys who are just as interesting, as queer-positive, politically aware, feminist, critical and with just as great a taste in music as the whiteys I've been with - and with a wealth of knowing stories about mom to share to boot. I'm not making any decisions either way with this whole bi-racial issue because the older I grow, the more complicated it all becomes, but it's been gratifying and a relief to know that there are sexy brown boys with sexy brown brains that I had just never encountered before, thanks to the circles I moved in. Payal brings up a very good point about us "inbetweens". What do you do when you're both a FOB and an ABCD and neither? What do you do when no matter which side of things your partner is on, there's always an entire set of issues about which you feel alienated from them about? And why are we so issue-laden as a community? Aaak.

brownfrown, this is so right on. About desi guys particularly, I don't think desi women give the upcoming generation of desi guys due credit for being more open-minded and progressive. Other people mentioned how we sometimes come to believe non-desi appropriated stereotypes about our culture, and I think this is one of them. I mean, the general feeling on SM is that culture is not static, it belongs to no one, etc etc. So why can't we believe that desi men can evolove, and have done so? I've never dated a desi guy, mostly because none of them were that into me, but I've come to know many who are as down as any leftist white guy I've known, except they're down with desi culture in a way that a white guy (or any other non-desi guy) could ever be, and that's always a plus.

I don't have a regular desi femme group to vent to, but I have a small group of organizer/activist desi girlfriends who are "inbetweens" like me. I remember that during a meeting for the Yoni Ki Baat performance we were working on, I mentioned that I wanted to include a piece about desi male feminists, and my friends looked at me like, "Shruti, there is no such thing." This is simply not true. You have to talk to desi guys first. There needs to be a constructive dialogue between desi men and women so that we can form opinions that are updated and accurate. Like I said, I've come to know a lot of down desi guys, and I wouldn't have known they were down if I didn't dialogue with them to figure out where they stand on all these issues. If they're not already feminist, they are a lot more open to hearing you out than you might think. (They're still not into me, but must guys find me difficult, regardless of race.) I'm just saying, give them a chance. It's a work in progress, so if you want a desi guy to be down with your views, then you have to engage them.

millivanilli: I feel like I'm looking into a mirror when I read your posts (I'm a tad younger though). Wooo haters fo life!

It's OK. Anyway, he/she is probably right -- it was a can of worms I probably shouldn't have opened in a forum like this. Guess I was enjoying the anonymity and open discussion about topics that are close to my heart and head. Wish I could take it back.

Temporarily-in-disguise: I echo dharma queen's comment in 132. No point in getting into abortion politics, unless you want to have a personal conversation (in which case you're welcome to email me). Just don't worry about Not So Much's ignorant comment.

no sense in getting into an argument. i do, however, think that the choices one makes regarding abortion, sex, and a number of other issues related to dating and love go directly to the heart of the question that was originally posted:

“Are there things about being desi that give us a different set of expectations about our love life and our marital lives than our non-Indian peers?”

in my opinion, if desi guys want to criticize my choice in men, my question to them is "WHERE ARE YOU??? AND WHY AREN'T YOU DATING ME???" oh wait that's right... you don't actually like me, you just like to criticize me. well boo to that. boo!

and

This only dawned on me recently when I was having a discussion with my friend John who is considering going to India to get married because he wants to marry within his community and hasn't found someone he'd like to marry on his own yet. When I brought up the sex issue his take was "She's from India she hasn't been around like the girls here and doesn't know better, and she's a woman how hard can it be to please her?"

well well, i have a completely politically incorrect answer that would gain me a lot of flak :D so don't say I didn't warn you.

Its because desi men want to date non-desi women because of the additonal "perks" (sex, i presume) that they supposedly get that desi women may not want to give. But when marriage comes rolling around, they want a viriginal wide eyed beguiling innocent.

(I have seen so many FOBS act like that. its disgusting.)

Hello? Fool around with the "slut" ( not intended with malice) and marry the virgin? Where do you get off with an attitude like that?

I think its pretty much same here but that the desi community is much smaller here so you get away with less. Desi boys wanting to date white girls and desi girls dating non-desi boys because desi guys don't want them. And when marraige comes around, they act like your the best thing they've seen on two feet

Its interesting, desi communites and issues never change across borders. Here, you guys are in America facing the same thing I am in Australia. talk about unity huh? :)

just to clarify not all FOBS, I've met alot of nice ones. =) Just in case anyone here gets offended. But enough idiots to form an opinion =)

Maybe its just the youth talking , hopefully they'll grow out of it by the time we are old enough to marry. Please reassure me =)

(I have seen so many FOBS act like that. its disgusting.)

you are right abt that mentality. however, many fobs (at least in universities) i know who do not have that mentality will not jump at dating abd's either.

in my first years as a fob personally, forget dating, it was walking on eggshells each time i opened my mouth in front of the abd's i knew---both men and women. and what is worse, most were downright condescending and ridiculously rude---for eg, i was in this group of people (a couple of fobs and non-desis) when this abd walks up, introduces himself to all of us, then invites the two non-desis alone for some party he was going to have right *in front of us*. this incidentally was my first encounter with an abd in american territory, and so it is unlikely i will forget it.

it just used to be so much easier then around almost anyone else of any gender, nationality or ethnicity. so, at that point, i wouldn't have cared to date abd's or even socialize with them. of course, i met some nice abds later on and i have made my peace since :).

funnily, and this is not a dating thing---i still find *some* abd's to be the toughest to get along---the ones that are also my relatives. ironically, we all think that the other side is provincial. they think so because i am not-born-in-and-not-resident of amreeka. i think so because they can come up with the reason above. well, such is life.

Meena,

Just wondering why, if you don't like being reminded of your heritage, and want to be treated like 'just another white person', you are blogging here?

Please don't read any criticism into this question - it just seems to me there must be some interest or need in engaging in these desi-only conversations. For me, there certainly is. I can honestly say that before last night's cluster of wine-fuelled rants, I hadn't any concrete sense that other people had IDENTICAL issues as mine. I have sympathetic non-desi friends, but they're not coming from the same place.

Wow,I didn't realise my comment would be taken in such a wrong way. I'm not trying to say I want to be white. I don't have any desire to be any colour except my own. My point was, there is a time and place for everything. As I have said, I live in a country with very few desi people. 99% of my friends until now has been white, simply because of LACK of desis. I only come to this site to find a bit of understanding. Unfortunately most people here are American, British or Canadian desis and thus their situation is very different.

I have no aversion to dating Indian men. There simply aren't any available here. I hope people do understand that.

Things are very different on the continent. I find that being a European desi comes with it's own set of problems. Perceptions of us (from Indians outside of Europe) are very different to those that American desis have to deal with. If ABCDs are considered promicuous, snobbish and not connected to their culture, well European desis are considered that and 10 x worse. Plus the age-old "How do you cope with racism?".

Personally I think it's a big step for me already to be posting in this blog, as I have little to no knowledge of Indian history, culture and traditions.

millivanilli and others...one thing I've noticed among many ABCDs is the idea that they are "not the average ABCD". The interesting thing is that this seems to be the norm and not the exception. This is essentially holding (most) other Indians to a stereotype, but not yourself. It seems to me that you may be judging white people more as individuals, while judging brown people more as a group. Why not grant the brownies the same privilege of being judged one at a time?

Excellent observation, Rama. I won't start a rant about Western society as a whole recognizing and accommodating for white multidimensionality and not extending that courtesy to non-white people, desi or otherwise. I'll just restate what I've already said on this thread: we need to look around and address the evolution of diasporic desi culture in our own time so that we don't feel so divided and isolated (desi women vs. desi men, etc) when most of us are going through similar things.

bythewords, I know what you mean about the fob-ABD dynamics in school (at least in America). I can't stand how some of my ABD friends talk about and treat fobby grad students. Yes some fobs get out of control with the sexism, but given how rude--and just downright mean--ABDs are to fobs in general, I've always suspected that fobby men are driven into the uber-chauvanistic role in an attempt to prove their masculinity and regain some dignity. Of course, there's some really fucked up gender politics here, i.e. being degraded=being feminized, and I personally don't consider it an acceptable excuse, but I do recognize that it's a globally pervasive concept. I honestly think many fobs become more chauvanistic than they would normally be just because they think they need to be assholes to impress and be accepted by ABDs.

Rama says

one thing I've noticed among many ABCDs is the idea that they are "not the average ABCD". The interesting thing is that this seems to be the norm and not the exception.

Byte, my sympathies

Well to be fair, I agree because I think some ABDs like to pretend they are cooler than a FOB but have whole "I'm Indian" thing. Feel like they can strike a balance between being Indian and Westernised and do not have the dreaded "vat do you vant" accent. So the girls like to pretend they're super hip and too cool to date a FOB. My brother got a lot of flak for that when he first moved here, even though we weren't born or raised inIndia, so we aren't FOBs. Alot of ABD guys were being assholes when he came here and started dating a ABD girl, and gave him flak for trying to date above his station and what nots.

I think FOBS get it bad too but when you look at some others, you think, well, they deserve it.

I think FOBS get it bad too but when you look at some others, you think, well, they deserve it.

What does that mean?

Temporarily in Disguise,
I'm sorry you feel like you wish you could take it back. When you posted your first comment, I really wanted to say something that would express my support and solidarity and commiserate with the fragile-mother-can't-send-her-spiralling part of what you were saying, but having very little experience with abortion, I thought I'd leave it up to people who had something more concrete to say.

What I did hope was that given the thrust of the thread up to that point, it would be a safe enough place for a discussion to grow around it that would be constructive and would be supportive of your obviously difficult experience. I'm sorry that someone who had not entered the discussion on anything we had been talking about up to that point jumped in after your post only to be a judgemental freakshow. I'm sorry this thread had to enter the acrimonious instead of continuing to be supportive and warm and funny and personal the way it started out.
And Not So Much you say this:

but many times on this board as well as blogs/forums in general, ther eis a mindset that one must.have to be agreeable or one will be painted with labels by people who one may not know, or ever meet. strange that.

but do this:

i am sorry, but that is the most calous and selfish thing i have ever heard! almost, but not quite, beaten by a women who got an abortion because it messed up her summer vacation plans to goto india.

Not all our experiences has been a dappled bed of roses, Not So Much and a lot of us have had to make choices that have been very difficult and very painful and some have been things that we have been glad for and others that we have regretted. We're not here to judge each other; we're here to give and recieve support and inspiration and share our experiences that, although sometimes vastly different in their particularity, remain uncannily bonded in our similarity. So the next time you find something on this personal a topic that offends your politics (and I won't comment on what I think of them) take a deep breath, calm the hell down and think about why you're here, why people are talking about what they are talking about and the fact that you could potentially singlehandidly just ruin a safe space. Oh and your comment about IP addresses. Yes, very clever. We all *know* that and yet don't really assume people we trust enough to share this information with and who trust us enough to have been doing the same are going to have so little to do with their time as to sneak around trying to unmask us if we've requested anonymity for some kind of self-congratulatory excercise.

meena,

Things are very different on the continent. I find that being a European desi comes with it's own set of problems. Perceptions of us (from Indians outside of Europe) are very different to those that American desis have to deal with.

Personally I think it's a big step for me already to be posting in this blog, as I have little to no knowledge of Indian history, culture and traditions.

it's true. big step and you should feel good about yourself for doing so. i hope you find that on balance this is a welcoming place.

i'm about twice your age but i did grow up in europe and i know that not much has changed in this respect: desi communities remain small in continental europe. there are specific working-class immigrant communities e.g. bangladeshis in italy.

aside from that, you get professional desis who are in a given country for individual reasons. in my case, my academic father got a visiting professorship in paris that was renewed a couple of times, and when a permanent job came up, he and my mother found they liked living there and decided to stay. professors, engineers, etc. -- the desis are out there but sprinkled about and not living in much of an ethnic-identified way.

growing up in that context, much depends on what your parents want to impart to you with respect to indian/south asian culture, including travel back to the subcontinent, exposure to books, music, language etc. i got to go to india frequently as a child, we ate indian meals from time to time, and my dad had a collection of hindustani classical music he'd listen to. i didn't learn bengali, only basic words, and i certainly had zero desi friends. my mother is american so we were actually stretched across three worlds, not two.

fast forward and here i am. i've always felt indian, but my exploration of desi-ness was mainly a personal thing, not one lived in a group. it's still personal but having good group conversations is wonderful. i'm sure for you it has and will be a personal thing too, and at the same time i think you'll be glad to have a space like this one in which to think out loud, share and learn.

you're as desi as you want to be.

peace

anyway, point is, you are as desi as you wanna be.

oops -- sorry for the repetition. it is my main point but i didn't mean to say it twice! (time for more coffee)

amen, brownfrown.

not so much, your personal experience is as beautiful and precious as everyone else's, and it would be good if you felt the same way. we can't force you to do that, but we can ask for courtesy on a thread where people are sharing from the heart.

peace

one thing I've noticed among many ABCDs is the idea that they are "not the average ABCD". The interesting thing is that this seems to be the norm and not the exception. This is essentially holding (most) other Indians to a stereotype, but not yourself.

I think this can be applied to any group. Everyone likes to believe s/he is an individual unlike any other. And perhaps at the core of it all on an intimate level we all are very different from each other but on a superficial level we all fall into some level of loosely formed groups and stereotypes.

Having said that it's always offensive when someone holds us to a stereotype that we may not conform to 100% no matter whether we are a FOB or an ABD. It was well into adulthood that I learnt to open my heart to meeting people that shattered some of the stereotypes. But unfortunately I found them to be few and far in between. The general stereotypes still remain.

Oh pfft.
Does everything have to turn into a pro-life rally? Or can we not actually ever talk about our personal experiences without having to discuss how our actions offend the church fathers or the particularly sanctimonious?
And if you want people to accept your opinions, give a little and hear them out too without jumping on it immdiately as something you think you need to comment on and condemn.

As for your post being taken off - see that little disclaimer right above where you'd be typing? It's there for a reason. I'd wager you fell somewhere between non-issue and non-funny with perhaps some intolerant thrown in? You're on a site called Sepia Mutiny - not Sepia let's-maintain-the-status-quo-and-harangue-people-whose-life-choices-are-disagreeable-to-us. A little bit of an open mind, please.

hey Al,

I mean that sometimes I do feel sympathetic towards FOBS when they get dissed but when you look at some other FOBS who act like jerks, you do feel that they deserve to be treated that way.

I agree. That rant (and yes it was a rant) from not so much was annoying as hell. It wasn't the difference of opinion that irritated me it was the way it was presented and the way temporarily in disguise was attacked. Uncalled for. Make your choices. Share them here. All good. Putting someone else down for their choices. Unacceptable. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That's what maks SM worth visiting everyday.

Maybe that's why my comment about my personal experience and opinions about the abortion topic was taken off. Hey ...

Not So Much,

I didn't call you a fundamendalist nutcase because you have problems with abortion. I called you that because your response to someone confessing a very personal secret, on a delicate matter, and asking for others' input, was to trample all over them. This demonstrated an insensitivity which characterizes all fundamentalism.

i dont feel like i HAVE to say something in every thread.

Byte, my sympathies

oh, no worries :). i had a lot of fun and made several good friends, only not with abds i knew at that point.

but like i said, i have met several nice abd's since, and i definitely don't have a grouse now. some fobs can be obnoxious, as can some abds.

but isn't it nice that i only have to use one abbreviation for australians and americans? :)

dreaded "vat do you vant" accent

ah the difference between "dreaded" and "endearing" here is how you behave in other aspects :). for example, a resonant "vat" in perfect pitch still sounds better than a nasal "what" off-key :).

shruti, i think you get my drift. but hopefully i don't think i wasn't driven into a chauvinistic position at least in gender relations, definitely not to impress someone. but all that is history though.

Maybe that's why my comment... was taken off.

You're astroturfing comments by pretending to be multiple people. Abusive posting -> ban.

i am sorry, but that is the most calous and selfish thing i have ever heard! ... u couldnt imagine giving them away, at 22, both of them, but u didnt have a problem having them aborted?!?

NSM, your opinion is welcome. I actually like to hear about peoples' experiences and decisions re: pregnancy termination, but it's when words like calous (sp) and selfish get thrown about that it starts to look less like sharing your opinion and more like passing judgment on someone based on 5 lines of text.

I disagree with your politics but I won't attack your character. Even if I sort of want to.

jane of all trades, but apparently you and others think only YOUR opinion is entitled. and i cant believe you are sitting there typing criticising others and saying how everyones opinion should be respected in essence, but you are not respecting MY opinion. you probably htink this is not done either..

If you had an opinion I missed it. Because I didn't see you saying "I'm against abortion and I made a choice to have a child instead". All you did was attack someone else instead for simply stating what was a smart choice for them at the time. That isn't an opinion. That is just rabid behavior because someone else made a choice you didn't agree with.

It isn't your opinion on abortion that made your remark uncalled for it was the way you presented it which was tasteless. Understand what an opinion is first and please do learn to present it a little better. Is it so hard to admit that you made a poor choice in words? No one really cares whether you didn't have an abortion or for that matter someone else did. That isn't the point. Being rude to someone in an open forum is.

sm is not the bastian of tolerance and acceptance as some of you are deluding yourself it is. your own statements prove as much.

You must be new to the forum because you obviously seem to have missed some seriously heated debates that go on in this forum all the time and people don't resort to name calling nitwits. Hell two of the bloggers don't see eye to eye with each other yet exist in the same space. If that isn't tolerance I don't know what is.

"Admin, did u ever think that two people from the same hosuehold or living conditon can be reading sm and have separate things to say? if this was a college dorm, and we all read sm, but shared one computer and one connection, we end up having the same IP. they have comments on right now, check the IP, not the same.

then to be fair, take off temp in disguise as well, they are pretending to be someone else as well."

Yes, you're right - the administrators can see who's veiled and who's not.... but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to reveal someone (or even bother looking) at someone who is "temporarily in disguise" if they're revealing a painful and/or personal experience to share with SM. Frankly, with all the judgement going around, I am not in the least surprised that some would prefer to stay anonymous. However, if someone is trying to strengthen their point by posting under several names (to make it seem like there are many in agreement), I'm pretty sure that's up for removal. If you have a good argument, one name should be enough.

By the way, "selfish" and "callous" ARE judgemental words to be hurled at someone.

-----------

Now, can we get back to the wonderful, revealing discussion we were having here?

oookay... now we're debating about debate. Back to the point?

t-i-d: the only thing harder than coming out that I can imagine is telling the parents about pregnancy. If telling them would have broken you, I don't see how an abortion could in any way be seen as "selfish". It is really difficult enough to deal with the accusations that having a sex life is 'selfish' not honouring your parents is 'selfish' - if not having these rants is what keeps everyone healthy mentally and relationally - and you have the same right as the next person to be whole, then any choice you make that would destroy your self worth is unreasonable.
...thanks for sharing your story.

yes, apparently, u did!

Too bad you ruined the possibility of a valid post by tainting it yourself with ...

i am sorry, but that is the most calous and selfish thing i have ever heard! almost, but not quite, beaten by a women who got an abortion because it messed up her summer vacation plans to goto india.

i have been reading this entire post without commenting, but the above statement simply infuriates me. u couldnt imagine giving them away, at 22, both of them, but u didnt have a problem having them aborted?!?

Screaming louder doesn't make anything more true. Quite a few people pointed out to you the fallacy in your making the above statements which do attack a poster and do attack their choices made in the past! Yet you chose to get on your high horse and scream at everyone trying appear insulted. The one that needs to get over themselves is you my friend because no one really cares about the choices you or anyone else made. A rude comment is a rude comment is a rude comment.

I have no aversion to dating Indian men. There simply aren't any available here. I hope people do understand that.

Things are very different on the continent. I find that being a European desi comes with it's own set of problems. Perceptions of us (from Indians outside of Europe) are very different to those that American desis have to deal with. If ABCDs are considered promicuous, snobbish and not connected to their culture, well European desis are considered that and 10 x worse. Plus the age-old "How do you cope with racism?".

Personally I think it's a big step for me already to be posting in this blog, as I have little to no knowledge of Indian history, culture and traditions.

Meena...welcome and it's a wonderful step. Don't worry about having little or no knowledge about all things Indian, no one here makes that claim either. Where are you located and why is it 10X worse where you are?

Janeofalltrades, I live in the Netherlands, where supposedly there are junkies and prostitutes on every corner of the street, everyone has had a gay marriage, smokes pot and kills old people. At least, that is how we are perceived in the outside world. A colleague of my father's seriously received a mail from an Indian who had been offered a job in the Netherlands, and was wondering whether there was a lot of promiscuity in schools here. This man has child who is only just ready for primary school! It was slightly disturbing to say the least.

That said, I do have two desi (girl)friends. One has sadly already defected to the USA. The other is not intent on staying in the Netherlands for the rest of her life either. Most desis who come here are either temporarily employed or leave anyway after a few years. The Indians who have been staying here for a long time send their children to International schools. I was one of the few who went to a Dutch school, though my mother was against it in the beginning, my father convinced her it was for the best. Obviously I can't identify much with these children either, not in the least because they don't speak proper Dutch and aren't very assimilated into the society.

As a final note, somethings I say might be interpreted a bit wrongly, but that is most probably because my English really isn't up to the standard of the others who post on this site, since Dutch is the primary language of schools in this country.

Meena, goedag:

Your English is great. Sorry if my post earlier seemed critical - it wasn't meant that way. Lived in Belgium for a couple of years, and though it is different from the Netherlands, I can see how the situation would be very different from that faced by N.A. desis. The isolation must be a lot greater, especially with the increased polarization between muslim immigrants and dutch people. Indians don't fit into either category. On the other hand, I was always told by my Belgian friends that Amsterdam is extremely diverse and easy for immigrants of all nations to live in. Is this true?

I'm going to shamelessly advertise the proposed Delhi meet-up (late July?) discussed on another thread. If anyone's headed Delhi-side maybe we can continue some of this discussion in person? Any SM bloggers going to be around? Holla back, y'all.

Um, no. Guy's burden: pay the rent. Girl's burden: expore her free-love-art and marry someone with money.

The way you phrased your post drips of misogyny. However, with that said, I’ll try to give you the benefit of the doubt and address what I think you were trying to say.

As I see it, we should ALL (men, women and children) be actively questioning and confronting patriarchy at every possible opportunity because it binds and bounds ALL of us in a million different ways. It seems to be me that the statement you made, as crass as it was, begins to touch on ways that you have perhaps felt bound by your (I’m assuming you’re male) own gender conditioning. It’s certainly something that I’ve wondered about. My father, who is interested in all kinds of things, really had no choice but to go into engineering because he felt the pressure of being the one who would need to support a family. If he hadn’t felt that pressure, could he have been a great poet, dancer, singer (definitely not, I’ve heard him in the shower), journalist, or (if he wanted to) engineer? My mother had to fight her ass off against her extremely strict father to be able to take art and music classes because that’s what she adored. Sadly, it was perhaps only my grandfather’s passing on at an early age that gave her greater freedom to do so. Fast-forward thirty years and my mom decided that she wanted quit her job to stay home and paint and take music lessons and for her that was a possibility. For my father, that would never be a possibility. He loves his job too much to ever consider it anyway, but I’m just saying.

The point I’m trying to make is that it’s not ‘patriarchy, ha! I win, you lose!’ We all lose.

When I told my parents about the decisions I had made regarding my career, one of their primary concerns was how I would support a family. I laughed off their concerns at the time, which I shouldn’t have done. Their concerns were genuine, but came from a different time and place. Nevertheless, men today (and I absolutely include myself in this), I feel, are perched on a kind of fragile masculinity. That is, we (many of us, I hope) have realized that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way we, and men of previous generations, were taught to be men, but we haven’t figured out ‘what next’? I think what’s next is that we should begin to realize that this is a struggle that we are all (men, women and children) engaged in and we’re all on the same side. Win or lose.

dharmaqueen:

I don't leave near Amsterdam actually, I live in a town quite a distance from it. Now it's a more multicultural place but when we just moved here it was 99% white, and stayed that way for the longest time.

I actually imagine that Belgium must be a little harder to live in than in Holland, because the extreme right has a stronger foothold there than in this country. Of course my perception must once again be skewed since I have never actually lived there.

Yes, there is increased polarization between the Moroccan and Turkish populations, and the indigenous Dutch. However as far as I know in the mind of most Dutch we Indians are not grouped together with either of these groups of immigrants. To be fair to both sides the Dutch can be quite prejudiced about Muslims especially, but on the other hand this group(not Indian muslims generally, but more the people of Middle-Eastern descent) also makes things difficult for themselves by rioting(e.g. the Danish cartoons).

*sigh*
amen, PMG. High five.

Meena said, in regards to Desis in the Netherlands :"The Indians who have been staying here for a long time send their children to International schools. I was one of the few who went to a Dutch school, though my mother was against it in the beginning, my father convinced her it was for the best. Obviously I can't identify much with these children either, not in the least because they don't speak proper Dutch and aren't very assimilated into the society."

I'm sorry to go off on a wild tangent but it's not often I have a quote like that to work with. That quote is VERY analagous to urban kids in India educated in English-medium schools. They don't speak proper (any Indian language) and are not assimilated into (here goes) Indian culture (I know, I know, culture is hard to define, a slippery concept, ever-changing etc etc. and I have no right to say anything about it). But it's my opinion.

PMG,

You may have noticed some whinging from a lot of desi women on this thread about wanting to meet a great desi man ---

Can we clone you?

Did NOT mean to offend anyone. It's true I have no right to make judgements on who is and who isn't assimilated into anything, nor can I define Indian culture. It's just my opinion.

PMG, You may have noticed some whinging from a lot of desi women on this thread about wanting to meet a great desi man --- Can we clone you?

Yeah PMG where you at? And where are the rest of your bretheren? :-)

Actually, in the two-three years that I was living in India I went to a convent school(thus Christian, thus English-medium).

Even here in the Netherlands my parents never really bothered with upholding our language and culture.

PMG said:

That is, we (many of us, I hope) have realized that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way we, and men of previous generations, were taught to be men, but we haven’t figured out ‘what next’?

PMG, your entire comment was so well-written and articulate, I had to say something. There has been so much discussion and dialog on emerging roles for women, and the changing definition of the feminine ideal, but the perceived or preferred role of men in the community and family life doesn't seem to be evolved. Like your father, had my father been given the opportunity to do anything other than a 9-5 job to support his immediate and extended family, he would have jumped at it. But alas, that was not to be. Today so many of us - male or female, regardless of where we were born and raised - have the luxury or privelege of questioning our place in society and asserting it without even realizing it.

Just random, mid-afternoon pre-coffee thoughts here. On a less ponderous note, your comment also reminded me (for some reason) of the emerging "masculine ideal": ubersexual.

Quote from Rama:

"millivanilli and others...one thing I've noticed among many ABCDs is the idea that they are "not the average ABCD". The interesting thing is that this seems to be the norm and not the exception. This is essentially holding (most) other Indians to a stereotype, but not yourself. It seems to me that you may be judging white people more as individuals, while judging brown people more as a group. Why not grant the brownies the same privilege of being judged one at a time?"

You make a GREAT point and I appreciate being called out about this. Don't think I haven't posed the same questions to myself; it's definitely something I struggle with, understanding my own desi identity within the larger context of "Indian-ness," whatever that is. I am constantly challenging myself to be more open-minded towards ALL Indians -- whether I view them as alterna, mainstream, fobby, etc. I will admit that I have been absolutely myopic in my view towards FOBs; I have disparaged mainstream Indians; in general, been very immature about my judgments of Indian people, which have definitely been more harsh than necessary. I suppose I chalk it up to youth and a lack of exposure to a variety of Indians. (In some ways, I've done that to myself -- I've grown up in places with huge Indian communities, but I distanced myself from them on purpose). In my older age (ha ha), I've been blessed with friends who run the gamut of desiness. In creating friendships with them, I've realized that I have to start giving people a chance as individuals, instead of dismissing them because I think they fit into some stereotype that I've shoved them into before even really getting to know them.

That being said, let me at least say a couple words on why I do continue to make distinctions between mainstream and alterna-desis. I don't think it can be argued that I was, in fact, very different from the Indian peers within my community. I can only speak to that experience, as I'm sure communities in other states/countries have their own cultures (and I'm sure communities differ by Indian region as well). I was the very first person to have a secret boyfriend; the first to lose my virginity; the first to get drunk; the first to do drugs; the first to get arrested; the first to go to underground parties; the first to leave home; the first to travel the world by myself. And when I say first, I mean, YEARS before anyone of my Indian peers *in my community*. Those things do NOT make me cool or better, oh god no. But, they did set me apart from the other Indians my age, who, by and large, judged me and ostracized me. I truly believe that the mindset I developed towards mainstream desis was a reaction to being judged by them for so long. When I started college, the SASA/ISA groups actively tried to recruit people, invite them to dances, etc. I started college with a shaved head and a couple piercings; immediately I got a reputation as being "wild" or "different" and I was never once invited to participate in desi events. An officer in ISA even told a friend of mine not to bring me to a dance because I didn't fit in with the ISA crowd. I had never even met this person before, so WTF was that all about? They didn't give me a chance as an individual and the funny thing is that in many ways, I am more traditional than those people. I did occasionally attend some ISA events with Indian friends, where, once they got past my external appearance, they made fun of me for being a) south Indian, b) religious (Hindu), and c) vegetarian. They were more interested in talking Bollywood than going to the temple; that ain't my thing, but I never openly criticized them!

I think I can say that I am "not the average ABD" because my personal and anecdotal experiences tell me so -- my list of "firsts," for example. I almost never saw fellow desis out at the parties I went to in high school, people shunned me because I did drugs, there were rumors that I was a slut even though I barely had a sex life in college!! When they eventually started to party a bit, they made fun of my bars/clubs because they were too "dirty" or "divey" and instead preferred going to places that were frequented by yuppies. Fast foward a decade later and now these same people are asking me what the good club nights are and asking me to score drugs for them. Sorry if I feel a little resentful towards these people and remain suspicious when I see or meet someone who, on the outside, appears to be part of this crowd that left me on the fringe for years.

millivanilli a big hug to you. You sound like a long lost sister. Like you I went way extreme and made a 180 degree turn at some point in my life, a few decades later. I actually ended up just fine.

I still keep a large portion of the general desi community at a healthy distance. Interestingly like you when I didn't fit in people made up things about me to entertain themselves and satisfy their egos. I was the "bad girl" when I was and have been far more traditional then their "good" daughters who were having sex in the backseat of daddy's car, smoking pot every chance they had and barely wearing anything underneath the clothes they walked out of the house with and removed later.

This is where the sad stereotypes come from and they are hard to break when people keep falling into the same trap everytime you meet someone new. I never realized how much the desi community (in the west) is all about the validation of a woman's existence which can only come from a father or a husband. If you aren't living under your fathers roof you must be running a brothel from your house! Nevermind that you work two jobs go to school and worry about paying rent. If you aren't married but live life without apologizing for your existence and acutally appear happy you must be out to steal their potbellied married men or a hussy of some sort.

Yes this is the sad desis in the west, you can leave Indian behind 20 / 30 years but not the Indian mindset. Hell today there isn't even a Indian mindset in India in the progressive new generation. And this mindset in my opinion is best ignored and not assimilated with. I have no qualms about keeping my distance from them.

Millivanilli:

They made fun of you for being South Indian? Of all the things I've read on this thread, that's the most upsetting. I'm north Indian background myself but in the Indian cliques when I went to college/post-college etc. I don't recall that being an issue. Looking back on it though, there may have been a certain pressure (mostly that women imposed on other women) to be into Bollywood.

Oh, I can't tell you the number of times I heard rude comments about South Indians -- our food is tasteless mush, we have a backwards culture, we're not modern, we're oppressed for largely being vegetarian, our temples are not as pretty, etc. Blah di blah. But I love being S. Indian so I just let it roll off my back :)

Oh, I can't tell you the number of times I heard rude comments about South Indians -- our food is tasteless mush, we have a backwards culture, we're not modern, we're oppressed for largely being vegetarian, our temples are not as pretty, etc.

where did you catch these nuts?

Oh, minivanilli, I can completely identify with the South Indian thing. There are/were a majority of North Indians in my community, and while they didn't make fun of me, I did hear a lot of comments regarding how surprised they were that I was South Indian at all - that I didn't look 'dark', didn't watch 'lame South Indian movies' and eat 'smelly food', etc. etc. I'm sure that North Indian vs. South Indian cultural differences and social issues have been debated to death on other threads, but I just wanted to say that there are desi dating/desi issues, and within them, a range of issues depending on where in India you or your family are from.

yeesh. I had no idea about this kind of polemic. I mean there's clearly a North-Indian bias in terms of representation in any desi group and the North-Indian hegemony is kind of obvious but I didn't realise it translated to this kind of blatent racism. Gah - how vile.

DQ and JOAT - Thank you for your very kind words, I'll let my blushing speak for itself :-)

VBSF - Thanks for your comments, and I absolutely agree with you that there isn't nearly enough discussion going on about any of this. I was really lucky to have gotten the opportunity to participate in an excellent workshop organized by DVRP in DC last year for A/PI men to discuss masculinity. It was a really intense, heartfelt, funny and thought-provoking discussion, and one that definitely needs to be going on all the time, but that isn't. At one point in that discussion the group leader asked us to go around the room and talk about the "strongest" man in our lives. Prior that we had been discussing strength and masculinity and trying to open up what strength and power and all these very "masculine" words actually meant to us. Anyway, when it came to the question of the "strongest" man many of us were clearly stumped. Here we had just been deconstructing notions of the masculine, and so no one was going to say "Hulk Hogan", but then what were we left with? After some thought and some hesitation people started coming up with really interesting answers about what "strength" meant to them and the men in their lives that personified that strength. Things like being a loving person, caring about those around you, growing and maturing with age, etc. It's amazing to think about how much that short session of sitting around with men I don't know and talking about masculinity affected me and continues to stay with me. Which only speaks to how rare and how necessary these kinds of workshops are.

One resource that might be of interest is the Exploring Masculinities South Asian traveling seminar. Parts of the website are still under construction, but they have some very interesting links up.

almost off topic, but.. anyone who heard the desi love podcast recognize the music at 4:15?

Totally agree dxdydz & millivanilli. The North-South thing emerged especially I found in university. India, for the ISA crowd, consisted only of the North. When my friends tried to suggest that the cultural shows etc should include S.Indian culture, they met with considerable resistance, based on some of things alluded to in the previous comments. They then suggested that it should be called the North Indian Students' Association, but not surprisingly that didn't go over too well either. ;)

I do think things might be changing a bit (hope so anyway). The prevalence of South Asian Students' Associations might attest to a more inclusive university scene. As with everything, though, I'm sure it depends on where you are.

And, on the dating front,(back to the thread) this issue arises again and again. Now, honestly I think/hope much of that is when you are seeking a partner who has things in common with you, the incredible diversity of South Asia means that you will have more in common with someone from the same geographic region as you (or your parents). That being said, I also think that there are probably other more malignant forces afoot as well (skin colour being one of them).

At #129, Shruti wrote:

Seems to me that desi women, if they're dating non-desi men, are dating only white men. Why is that? Do non-desi men of color have their own cultural baggage that we don't want to deal with because our own is quite enough?

I thought this was a really interesting comment, and I'd love to hear more if folks would like to discuss. I also wonder if this falls along alterna-desi lines. Funnily enough, most of my alterna-desi-sistas actually lean away from dating white guys when they date interracially. Part of this is probably b/c we live in California, which generally is more diverse, but I have my theories on why this tends to be the case. But actually, this is probably not just alterna-desis but desis in general, depending on regionality, generation, etc, perhaps?

I must have missed the (what appears to be, in quotes) truly vicious posts that were flying back and forth earlier. Kind of happier for it, to be honest.

And so bummed to hear about the North-South hate! It's funny, I've always grown up with South Indians and never seen this, but always heard horror stories from my Southie friends from other areas. As a person hailing from the North-desh, I just have to say, the food is great, as is the film/dance and the temples. :) Not to totally exoticize or homogenize all of South India...

Also, PMG, thanks so much for sharing. Your posts have been super thoughtful and great to read. Overall, despite my general aversion to "desi love" conversations, I've really been enjoying these discussions, and not just b/c I'm avoiding my thesis :) The posts flying back and forth are awesome, yay for the mutiny.

um about the south indians being vegetarian comment: aren't gujus the majority of abcd's in the US and definitely the majority of north indian abcd's in the us. not sure about fob's. anyway gujurat maybe the state with the largest %age of veggies in india. im not sure if most si's or non veg. well definitely in kerala at least(a lot of hindus there supposedly eat beef). my parents are tamil brahmins from kerala. a lot or perhaps most of our non brahmin tamil friends in fact i think most eat at least chicken. although maybe some of them just switched when they came to the us i don't know.

i don't know if gujus are the majority of abcd's in america... but more and more i come across 2nd/3rd generation abcd's gujus who have not kept up with their vegetarian ancestors/parents... i've come across more south indians who have kept up that cultural belief... and the south indian food isn't smelly..it's delicious... love that and good guju home cooked meals--the veggie guju bean...

While the North-South cultural bias might be present in other North Indians, I have felt this to be the strongest from the Punjabi crowd. A lot of Punjabi kids I knew turned up their nose at south Indian food [ I still think it's yummy] and Southie languages were fair game for poking fun at. The latter might have been ok if it didn't contain hints of derogatory tones. I mean the bhojpuri, bihari, gujju et al accents are common but the southie ones were definitely not in the same spirit.

It disappointed me. Also this might totally be a 'gelf' phenomenon, but all Southies were referred to as 'mallus' and it was not meant without insult by the above mentioned group.

Quite a shame overall.

well definitely in kerala at least(a lot of hindus there supposedly eat beef).

Good God. All of our food is smelly. If you want to insult a fellow Indian, you can surely come up with something better than that.

Incidentally, the only thing I ever heard about South Indians, growing up, was that they were smarter than North Indians.

As a fellow South Indian, it is sad to hear of all these North-South issues. Interestingly enough, I've never witnessed this among the Indian crowd! One thing I have noticed is that many Punjabis, Gujaratis, and other North Indians are under the impression that there is one big state in the south called "South India", while they are very particular about the state they are from in the North. Cracks me up every time I point that out.

What do you mean when you say "all our food is smelly" ?
Isn't food supposed to smell (good) ? Doesn't barbecued ribs, steak smell...same with mexican food, thai food.
"Indian food is smelly" is a common comment that 'non-desis' make. We don't have to use their yardstick to judge our own food.
Taste and smell are essentials for food to be classified as "good".

I love the many turns this thread has taken :) To continue in the same vein but bring it back to the original question, I was wondering if any of you face parental or societal pressure insofar as dating/marrying within Indian society as a whole. For example, a friend of mine (Telegu) was dating a Punjabi guy; his parents refused to meet her, and they eventually broke up because his family disapproved of their relationship since she wasn't Punjabi. Without going into too much detail, I know that in my parents' ideal fantasy world, I would not only marry someone from the same caste but also subcaste and sub-sub-caste. (Again, they're not putting pressure on me either way and have convinced themselves that I will be marrying a white guy). I know lots of people who have had North/South or inter-caste marriages and they faced strong opposition from both families, just as much as the opposition I've seen to bi-racial marriages.

To address an earlier question re: why do ABDs tend to talk about only dating white guys, if dating outside of the desi spectrum ... I've dated white, black, E. Asian, S. Asian, and Latino guys. It's just been the trend lately that they've all been whiteys. I have a big crush on a 1/2 African/Indian Grenadine man at the moment!

reality check- south indian food SMELLS. whoever says it doesn't is probably so used to eating it they can't smell it on themselves anymore. all desi food smells, but south indian food takes it to a whole new level. i had a s. indian roommate in college, stunk up the entire floor of the dorm when she nuked her leftovers. EVERYONE complained.

The North-South disconnect is quite common in Indian universities too. Its mostly "lack of knowledge" ..and there is usually no animosity or tension between people from different regions.
From my personal experience, I feel that you'll find very few gujjus in Indian engineering colleges. When we speak of North Indians, it usually mean Delhi, UP, Bihar, Punjab, Haryana, HP, MP, Rajasthan.

Some common generalizations are:
- North Indians mostly reason using their hearts while South Indians use their brains :)
- South Indians are less likely to enter into a fight.
- Northies are more likely to talk to strangers...southies are a bit more reserved.
- When it comes to academics, southies are more hard-working and sincere.
- When it comes to college politics, Northies rule the roost.
- All Northies love DOSA (this is quite true).
- Southies love Punjabi food (this is also true).

Add more :)

"pungent wafting aroma"- I take it from your post that you do not like the smell of South Indian food. You are right when you say that all desi food smells. What you don't seem to realize is that it's all relative- to many South Indians, the smell North Indian food is just as pungent, and to some repulsive, as well. I've seen it time and time again with friends/family in the South. This is because they aren't as used to the smell, just as you aren't as used to the smell of South Indian food. Food for thought.

pungent wafting aroma:
oh, your post has made my mouth water. Thank you for reminding me of the delicious aromas of bajji, thayir vadai, puliyotharai, rassam, sambar, idlee, yumyumyum. But don't share too much more; you're making me miss the smelly abode of my parents!

Wow - this is such a loaded topic.

I think this fob/abcd, southie/northie crapola plays a role only when you are young. When you hit past the mid twenties or have seen enough to realize that nothing really matters, things are much clearer.

During my initial years of stay in US, I used to expect the abd kids to be friendly with me. I didnt know how to steer the topic, but now I do. I can judge the tone and also the level of interest and sail it along.

Just as an incident from past (which was when I started to act smarter, *ahem*) - there was this ABD girl on the hiking meet we went. Her name is Maya. One Canadian dude asked her what her name means and I was also doing some friendly chat up. She literally *expected* me to answer the question. I just played like its none of my business to answer a question posed to her, which was when she gave him the meaning and me her digits :)

If I were put in same situation within first 2 years of my living here, I would have told all about illusion, the meaning of maya, the spiritual connotations and what not. Life do leaves funny trails.

cheers
-P

The way you phrased your post drips of misogyny.

It's picquant, yes, and you're projecting the rest. Do you deny that more women than men expect someone else to be the primary earner?

The point I’m trying to make is that it’s not ‘patriarchy, ha! I win, you lose!’

My point isn't about patriarchy, which deserves to be in the rubbish bin of history. It's about the reality of rent, every 30 days, 12 times a year. Women can't simultaneously bemoan the lack of artsy men while not stepping up for their own financial independence. It's anti-feminist and hypocritical.

With regards to the whole issue of negative attitudes towards women in South Asian culture, it's worth remembering that, unfortunately, amongst many of the older generation, being as conservative and narrow-minded as possible is regarded as a virtue. This is why so many of them behave in the way that they do, and a lot of it is also driven by ego-driven (along with paranoid) issues regarding what "other people" will think.

Correspondingly, many younger desis react to this by going in completely the opposite direction, where being as wild and unrestrained as possible is regarded as a virtue (this is just a general statement and not intended negatively towards anyone on SM).

Of course, the reality is that the best approach is often at neither of the aforementioned extremes, although some situations require a conservative approach and others a very liberal mindset, depending on the specific circumstances. Thinking in terms of black-&-white extremes is where the danger lies, for both older and younger desis.

- North Indians mostly reason using their hearts while South Indians use their brains :)
- South Indians are less likely to enter into a fight.
- Northies are more likely to talk to strangers...southies are a bit more reserved.

Thanks for the laugh. This has to go down as one of the most ridiculous analysis ever made on SM.

Oops!
I guess the poster (brown_fob) was not peddling the above as his analysis but merely pointing out the stereotypes. My bad!
But the stereotypes are patently ridiculous nevertheless.

Going back to the food issue (sorry, can't help it), as a Bengali I do not consider 'smelly' to be a pejorative. Try subsisting on bland thalis of dal-bhath-sabji, with maybe a little alu bhaja thrown in once in a while, for a month. Smelly food wins every time.

By the way, why do Bengalis go unclaimed by either North Indians or South Indians? Why are we the orphan child among the states? And what are some funny generalizations about Bengalis?

Funnily enough, most of my alterna-desi-sistas actually lean away from dating white guys when they date interracially. Part of this is probably b/c we live in California, which generally is more diverse, but I have my theories on why this tends to be the case.

Hmmm :) Please share.

AMFD - Yes, those were not my observations. Those were typical stereotypes that I have heard/seen over the years.

dharma_queen - Bengalis are generally not clubbed with North Indians. They have a separate group for themselves.
I'll ask my friends and let you know of some funny generalizations about Bengalis.

why do Bengalis go unclaimed by either North Indians or South Indians? Why are we the orphan child among the states? And what are some funny generalizations about Bengalis?

I've always wondered about this, too. My N. Indian friends' parents joke that Bengalis intellectualize too much (reference to adda?), but Indo-Americans in school just seemed unaware about where the region was and what was distinctive about it.

just a random comment to say whoo hoo ! for diversity.

All i know is that the one of the best foods to eat is thosai with bhindi masala. A perfect combinatation of north meets south. =D

What gets my goat the most is how some northies act that all indian culture is what exists within bollywood. I think its more around people my age (I'm 19) where if you don't know the latest bollywood guy or movie, you are labelled as not being "indian" ( oh yes, knowing the latest tamil movie is not a brownie point.)

And they perpetuate this damnned sterotype to every non desi person around so alot of non-desis walk around assuming that bombay and delhi is all there is to India. And yes, that everybody dances around a coconut tree :S

And, well, just wondering, do you guys get grief about caste? Well, I'm brahmin and I'm deathly sick of being accused of opressing people back in India. I tire of explaining how its evolved into a political tool and being brahmin now, is more just about culture to my generation than anything else. We do things differently, that's all.

If anyone is boorish enough to ask what your caste is, you don't have to answer. That's like asking someone how much their father makes for a living. It's that coarse and stupid. Let people know that, and you won't have issues anymore.

but isn't it nice that i only have to use one abbreviation for australians and americans? :)

when you put it that way, almost every continent ( though asian born desi seems mildy odd, seeing Indian IS in Asia) except europe fits too. ( hey actually Meena, too, well just call you amsterdam (nearly) born desi)

So never say, desis do not have foresight because whether you are born in ahmedabad or antartica, we got you covered =)

Random - the comment above assumes the people 'giving you grief' about caste are non-desis, of course...

I was wondering if any of you face parental or societal pressure insofar as dating/marrying within Indian society as a whole.

Never ever! I'm amazed at how dogmatic some of the parents of friends I grew up with have been. I never realized how lucky I am that my parents support me no matter what mostly because they trust my judgement and respect it. I have a slew of friends who broke up with their longtime love to marry someone Indian. Hell someone that sits two desks over from me at work I just found out got engaged to a nice Indian boy. She was living with her white boyfriend up until December for nearly 3 years! That I choose on my own to want to be with someone Indian is a completely different issue.

By the way, why do Bengalis go unclaimed by either North Indians or South Indians? Why are we the orphan child among the states?

Hell it's the same with Maharashtrians. We are neither to the north nor to the south. And we love our smelly foods. The average daily food of a Maharashtrian is boring and bland (and I love it) but we have kolbi curry (shrimp curry) and a lot of Goan influences which has very strong aromatic foods. Love it. Don't care what anyones got to say about it. Having said that I wouldn't be so rude as to take my kolbi curry to work and heat it in the microwave.

Hmm.. North-South divide in India is my area of interest.. :-)..

First a few myths to be blown. I doubt that if you can call any region in India is vegetarian / non-vegetarian. It depends upon who you meet and what they eat and then you generalise it to the whole population.. I am yet to meet a gujarati hindu who is a non-vegetarian, but I won't generalise. Maybe I've just met the upper-caste folks so far.

I believe eating habits are dictated by parents that is further dictated by caste/religious beliefs. Very few decide to turn vegetarian after considering the humanitarian aspects. Brahmins /Upper-castes/Buddhists/Jains eat just the vegetarian food. I'd say around 85% of the population in India are non-vegetarians. (Generalising from my observation from TN, and extrapolating using the caste/religious compositions, I believe this generalisation is valid).

Secondly, I have to admit being a Tamil, I treated everyone North of Tirupati to be North Indian.. :-) . And generally thought everyone speaks Hindi. I was disabused later by meeting an old lady who knew only Marathi and can't understand Hindi. India is a very diverse place having multiple languages / cultures / subcultures etc.. Neighboring regions have a lot of commonalities in languages/cultural beliefs etc.. As the distance grows differences grow.

I can't differentiate between Gujarati/Hindi/Urdu/marathi etc.. the same way as probably a common North Indian can not differentiate between Tamil/Malyalam/Kannada/Telugu..

It is the same case with smells. I used to wonder why my 'vegetarian buddies' make a fuss about the lovely smell of 'fish' etc.. before I tried to eat 'steak' done 'rare'..

It is all relative, folks.. :-))

With regards to the whole issue of negative attitudes towards women in South Asian culture, it's worth remembering that, unfortunately, amongst many of the older generation, being as conservative and narrow-minded as possible is regarded as a virtue. This is why so many of them behave in the way that they do, and a lot of it is also driven by ego-driven (along with paranoid) issues regarding what "other people" will think.

Absolutely. It's a strange sort of virtue to extol, but women have always borne the burden of "culture" and keeping it alive. The virtue of the culture and the virtue of women are somehow conflated - and very visably so with us desis, i think.

Onto the topic of Bengalis - I think it's because East India really is its own cultural complex. Bengalis, Assamis, Oriyas have a lot more in common with each other than they would with someone from UP or the Punjab or from Tamil Nadu or Andhra.

To PMG, post #184: That workshop sounds like an incredible learning experience! Did only men participate, or were women involved as well? I had a very similar discussion years ago in college where we discussed Clarissa Pinkola Estes’ “Women Who Run With The Wolves” – essentially about the archetype of the Wild Woman, a woman in touch with her primitive side and able to rely on her gut feelings, instinct etc. to make decisions. Interestingly, someone pointed out in class that the concept of “wild woman” signals self-empowerment and self-awareness. Whereas if you were to apply the same idea to men, “Wild Man” immediately lends itself some sort of negative, violent connotation. At the end, the class concluded that strength and character, and how they play out in real life, really ought to transcend gender differences.
Anyway, thanks for the link to the traveling seminar – looks fascinating, I’d definitely like to check it out!

(Also on a tangential note, you keep alluding to your unconventional career choice – what do you do?)

Wrt the whole “dating while desi” dilemma and the (internally-felt or externally-imposed) pressures to date and marry someone desi, a couple weeks ago, I found myself in a hookah lounge with a Somali girl and a Turkish girl (and for context, I’m S. Indian). (What is it about hookah lounges, electronica music, and inspired conversations?) Anyway, the three of us started talking about how hard it is to find someone we can relate with – our issues, our backgrounds, our languages, and yet regardless of how hard we found it, we wanted to date and marry within our communities (or at least our nationalities). We were all raised very conservative although as soon as we hit later years in HS and subsequently, college, we bloomed and started exploring (in the romantic sense, so to speak). It is astounding to me that three girls with very different cultural backgrounds should harbor the same expectations for themselves. Maybe it has nothing to do with being desi, being Somali, being Turkish…and everything to do with the values and principles we hold dear and would like to sustain. And we convince ourselves that only a fellow South Indian, a fellow Somali, a fellow Turkish guy would understand these values, principles, and to a large extent, the baggage that accompanies them. We never came to any real practical conclusion, and just sat there musing in our own thoughts with the hookah smoke wafting around us, but I’ve been thinking about it ever since: ethnicity doesn’t guarantee similar values, principles, and expectations. I’m probably better off looking for a similar world-view, rather than a similar skin color and place of birth…but who knows?

Secondly, I have to admit being a Tamil, I treated everyone North of Tirupati to be North Indian.. :-) .

It is the same case with smells. I used to wonder why my 'vegetarian buddies' make a fuss about the lovely smell of 'fish' etc.. before I tried to eat 'steak' done 'rare'..

It is all relative, folks.. :-))

Agreed! As a fellow Tamilian, I've definitely refered to anyone north of the four southern states as "North Indian." How un-PC of me. :)

Regarding the North-South divide and general stereotypes about us South Indians, I think Bollywood has a lot to do with it. South Indian characters in mainstream Hindi movies are such caricatures that perpetuate the stereotypes that South Indians can't speak Hindi properly, are so overtly religious, are so crude etc. Seriously makes me mad. Argh.

I know lots of people who have had North/South or inter-caste marriages and they faced strong opposition from both families, just as much as the opposition I've seen to bi-racial marriages.

I'd say 80% of my family members-cousins-have had "intercaste" and/or inter-regional marriages. I suspect that when one family member does, and the rest see that the sky doesn't fall and that it is indeed possible to be happy, productive and functional with someone not of your subcaste or region, then things become easier for everyone else. I think this is also an observable trend in urban India as well.

Today so many of us - male or female, regardless of where we were born and raised - have the luxury or privelege of questioning our place in society and asserting it without even realizing it.

Sure, this is one of the blessings of modernity. But at the end of the day, most people will not choose far from familial ideals. As for other ideals - being gender progressive, alterno-desi, and what have you - I would imagine that one could totally respect, indeed revere such a person but be completely bored when things went beyond politics. There is some truth to the idea that opposites attract, and when you find the right person, you tend to surprise yourself by what you put with, and how all of your criteria mattered so little in the end.

Agreed! As a fellow Tamilian, I've definitely refered to anyone north of the four southern states as "North Indian." How un-PC of me. :)

I've been fighting a low-grade war for the last three years with a Malayalee friend of mine who absolutely insists that Bengal is in North India. I will have to force her to read this thread. Victory is mine, at last!!!

Regarding the North-South divide and general stereotypes about us South Indians, I think Bollywood has a lot to do with it. South Indian characters in mainstream Hindi movies are such caricatures that perpetuate the stereotypes that South Indians can't speak Hindi properly, are so overtly religious, are so crude etc. Seriously makes me mad. Argh.

I have heard about that, never really watched many Hindi movies.. The request that south indians need to speak Hindi itself is not legitimate so we can ignore that..

I've been fighting a low-grade war for the last three years with a Malayalee friend of mine who absolutely insists that Bengal is in North India. I will have to force her to read this thread. Victory is mine, at last!!!

I'm afraid she's logically right.. Bengal is geographically in the northern (and eastern) region compared to where Kerala is. You can't declare victory.. :-)

I'll ask my friends and let you know of some funny generalizations about Bengalis.

I have heard the Bengalis being mocked for :

- Being dark
- Wearing Saris (thats only relevant to Muslim Bangladeshis though)
- Their broken, accented Urdu/Hindi (duh!) including countless references to chaval pronounced as shawal etc.
- Their love for rice/fish instead of the usual rotee/gosht.

I dont really understand why the above is either mockable or even funny at any level. Atleast not anymore funny than mocking people for eating rotee/naans or butter chicken.

I think the Bangladeshis especially are mercilessly mocked for their Bengaliness by North Indian Muslims and Pakistanis both in North America and from what I hear in the Gulf sheikhdoms as well. Pretty pathetic.

And we convince ourselves that only a fellow South Indian, a fellow Somali, a fellow Turkish guy would understand these values, principles, and to a large extent, the baggage that accompanies them.

another tangent. anyone else observe that turkish fob women think remarkably similar to desis? not sure abt men (not enough around---ok, maybe there are, and i don't know). but every such woman i have seen could have effectively been indian.

re: the north/south divide. there are several stereotypes everywhere---northies have them as well as southies. what amuses me is that people see these stereotypes as more correct than the person in front of them. as an eg, many non-desis do it---they have ridiculous caricature stereotypes of desis, and if you don't fit, some have the gall to rationalize "oh you are different, you don't know". come on!! i think some abd's you refer to on this thread who are on the bad side of the north/south bigotry are similar too.

i am south indian, and for the large part no northie has made fun of me in a malicious way. in particular, if anything, no matter what else be their faults, UP-types tend to be fairly inclusive in my opinion. strangely, i never encountered too many punjabis till i came to the US. here if you are a fob, you don't run down another for no reason---so no sweat with punjabis either.

but i don't know abt dynamics in abd cliques, i grew up in india (half a dozen places). i have heard mumbai (of all cities) used to be very bigoted in the north/south issue thanks to shiv sena---but the north/south has been superceded by hindu/muslim as the flavor of the times now. but bollywood i agree has been especially unkind to south indians--part of the reason may be the observation i brought up just now.

The whole thing about South Indian food allegedly being 'smelly' is beyond stupid. All Indian food has very strong flavors and to the uninitiated they will indeed 'smell' for the first few times that they have it.

I have always been careful about Indian food not stinking up my neighborhood and have always taken precautions to respect the nasal sensibilities of my neighbors.
Lately I have turned all native and I now make my baddest butter chicken (recipe from a pimped out truck stop dhaba on the delhi-punjab highway) with my kitchen windows open so that I can enjoy the nice cool breeze. The neigbors are of course free to move.

ah, the smell issue. in my university apt complex, my neighbors (i used to get along with them very well) usually usually thought that the food factory in my house, when it existed, used to smell *good*. when i moved out of the university complex, i never got applauded like this, except when i subleted rooms in houses (desi or not). you can read in to this what you like. my theory--if ppl like you or respect you, they don't complain. if they don't, they complain. smelly food complaints are (not always, but often) the effect of dislike, not the cause.

I think many of the 'stereotypes' are because of historical reasons both positive and negative..

I doubt if 'light skin' was treated as 'superior' before the dominance of Europeans/Arabs/Turks on all aspects (military / political / economic).

We could all be appreciating the 'superiority' of having black skin, if someone from Africa invented rockets/thermonuclear weapons and the 'black' africans kicked rest of the people under their domination..

Mocking of 'Bengalis' by NorthIndian Muslims/ Pakistanis, could be because of recent history of Mughal/Pakistani rule over Bengal/East pakistan..

And we convince ourselves that only a fellow South Indian, a fellow Somali, a fellow Turkish guy would understand these values, principles, and to a large extent, the baggage that accompanies them.

The above does hold some validity. When we are young and in love, the inter racial differences dont matter as much. But once you get married and have kids, the differences invariably will make a comeback in one form or the other.
One can be as removed from your culture as possible, but who is to say that a decade later the completely secular/agnostic/atheist desi husband/wife will not turn all religious or your completely irreligious white wife/husband will not have a mid-life religious awakening and rediscover her parent's Baptist faith.

I also think the relationship most desis have with their parents is too complicated/convoluted for an average Non-desi to understand. Also as the parents get older and we start having our own children, we feel a lot different and maybe even more compliant in pandering to our parents unreasonable obligations than we did when we were 22 and rebellious.

I am not suggesting that people should not enter into an inter racial relationship. I have one and I wont change it for anything. I do however feel that there is a world of difference between dating a non desi and actually marrying one.

The North-South divide is nothing to be worried about. People usually don't use these generalizations in real life. Its only a matter of pulling someones leg...nothign serious (atleast for the younger generation).
I lived in a hostel for 4 years (in India) and we had a thorough mix of North, South, East and West. There was absolutely no friction.
Now that Bangalore, Hyderabad, Pune etc (IT hubs) are flooded with "bhaiyyas" from UP and Delhi, the divide is being further diluted.

Aside: I'm a pure "bhaiyya" from UP :)

It's picquant, yes, and you're projecting the rest. Do you deny that more women than men expect someone else to be the primary earner?

If you’re going to use big words please at least spell them correctly so I have an easier time looking them up!

this is absolutely the best thread ever!
i'm so mad that i missed out on the bulk of the debate, but just to read things that i've actually thought is the biggest relief.
another reason why i love the mutiny!

my mother has told me that she has come to terms with the fact that i won't marry a brown guy. this is funny, because i am attracted to them and i definitely am open to a relationship with a brown guy; but no word of a lie, they aren't into me. the ONE exception who was into me was an 'alterna-desi' (cute! i love it!) himself, but we just never pursued a relationship. and i'm in toronto where there is no dearth of browns, believe that! i can chalk it up to my interests but in the end, and its sad, but i chalk it up to the physical. almost all brown guys i know go for the most beautiful girl they can find, and i know i'm cute in my own way, but the pattern of the brown boys around me shows a penchant for the conventional rather than the unconventional. in the end, i find myself dating guys who appreciate me for who i am.

as an aside, the last guy i dated i thougth i was going to marry. he wasn't desi, and he wasn't white. although he had questions about my culture, he completely respected it. he held me while i cried over my 'brown person guilt' due to the fact that i was so serious about him. he understood why i couldn't bring him home just yet, but he also knew that i loved him fiercely and would fight to be with him when the time was right. he wasn't just an outside observer into my indian-ness, he was an active participant in the preservation and cultivation of it and that played an important role in me realizing his 'potential' as a spouse. it ended for reasons other than our cultural/racial differences, but that relationship played a big role in breaking me out of that cycle of guilt i felt over doing things that felt right to me but were seen as 'wrong' to my parents/the community. this doesn't mean i do whatever i want and generally rebel, despite what my parents think. it means that i make a mature decision using common sense, to decide what's best for me as a person, for my future, for what i want to accomplish as an individual in this life. certain things may hurt them, but as parents i believe they want what's best for me.

there have been a lot of good points made so far that i want to discuss but this thread has reached epic proportions! carry on y'all...i love it!

dhaavak,
add anupa to our future toronto meet-up! :-)

metric: woohoo! who needs the SAA (SASA for the americans) when you can say you're a mutineer instead!

Re:
"...almost all brown guys i know go for the most beautiful girl they can find, and i know i'm cute in my own way, but the pattern of the brown boys around me shows a penchant for the conventional rather than the unconventional..."

Hmmmm. So even if you look brown but your interests are not traditionally brown, the family might not be so into it? Then again, if you don't look conventionally brown, the brown guys might not be so into it?

Wow, I can't believe I completely missed this thread! It's awesome.

I love the term 'alterna-desi' too. And I guess I'd count myself as an 'IBCD', not ABCD enough for an ABCD, not FOB enough for a FOB :D

I am 27, came to the US as a Comp Sci grad student, a very 'fobby' and nerdy type at that, at 22, started dating only a couple of years ago, so everything for me is 'belated'. I am currently in my phase of being attracted to 'alternative' and 'cool' types: Asian music prodigies, white feminist liberals, black athletes and so on. Lovin it so far.

My parents and I have a 'Don't ask don't tell' policy going on. they know I date, and we agree that we wouldn't talk about the specifics unless I am 'serious' with a particular girl, which hasn't happened yet.

I sometimes dread to think what happens once I get out of school, though. The marriage pressure will start. But I like to think I'll handle it well enough.

Hmmmm. So even if you look brown but your interests are not traditionally brown, the family might not be so into it? Then again, if you don't look conventionally brown, the brown guys might not be so into it?

i don't know if i'm getting what you mean exactly when you're asking me this-mental block, i've got a paper due tommorow!

but i'll try and clarify what i meant. i don't even think i'm talking about looking conventionally "brown", i'm talking about looking conventionally beautiful. perhaps i'm trying to say, and i realize this is a huge generalization, but most brown guys i know go for the physical rather than the substance. once again i can testify from personal experience only.

when it comes to the family, i think that your interest in music, art, film, etc are irrelevant to a family as long as you've got good character, and your interests don't significantly impact your lifestyle to a point where its "unacceptable". i.e. indie princess may love her some indie rock but as long as she's not in an indie band, her brown in-laws won't really give a damn!

hopefully that makes sense! the hard part in this thread is the generalizations that we all make and come to because of our individual experiences.

ic, thanks for the clarification!

I agree w/you that it can only come out of our individial experiences. I am attracted to all flavors of men=), but I used to think brown men in particular. But when I think about, the only real benefit I could find was superficial things like making fun of our parents and uncles and aunties together. I think the only person who you're with is someone you connect with and appreciates your culture, no matter the culture they themselves are from. Okay, that's a mushy Gandhi-like speech, but oh well.

dhaavak, add anupa to our future toronto meet-up! :-)

"...almost all brown guys i know go for the most beautiful girl they can find, and i know i'm cute in my own way, but the pattern of the brown boys around me shows a penchant for the conventional rather than the unconventional..."

Can someone define "alterna-desi" for me :-)

To echo Anupa... :-)

i can chalk it up to my interests but in the end, and its sad, but i chalk it up to the physical. almost all brown guys i know go for the most beautiful girl they can find, and i know i'm cute in my own way, but the pattern of the brown boys around me shows a penchant for the conventional rather than the unconventional. in the end, i find myself dating guys who appreciate me for who i am not dating!

I see this with my own guy friends. They'll walk into a room and beline straight for the one "hottest" unreachable girl in the room who isn't even remotely interested in them. The rest of the average chicks get ignored. Nevermind that my boys aren't exactly "hot" themselves!!!

If you’re going to use big words please at least spell them correctly so I have an easier time looking them up!

Sorry, what? I was looking up your 7+-letter words like "looking" and "correctly" :-) Here's another one you should look up (and I'm just teasing, man): "unresponsive"

pulls sharpie out. paper.. no paper... pulls sleeve up and exposes wrist writing add anupa..t-o ... the ... list... DONE. thinks... does this thing come off, and why is the skin puffing up and getting scratchy.

great post anupa btw, thanks for sharing - any relation to the great rohinton btw? :-)

hahaha! carrying sharpies around but no paper? i hope you're not defacing public property now!

ooh the amount of times i get asked that question! no, no relation. he's from mumbai, and parsi i believe. we're from the left coast-straight guju (via africa and the uk that is).

Re:
"...They'll walk into a room and beline straight for the one "hottest" unreachable girl in the room who isn't even remotely interested in them. The rest of the average chicks get ignored. Nevermind that my boys aren't exactly "hot" themselves!!! "

Haha. I think that's a universal male trait.

Re: "...They'll walk into a room and beline straight for the one "hottest" unreachable girl in the room who isn't even remotely interested in them. The rest of the average chicks get ignored. Nevermind that my boys aren't exactly "hot" themselves!!! "

Haha. I think that's a universal male trait.

hence the disclaimer about generalizations...ahh and we come full circle again!

hey jane no worries; its so much more rewarding to find that man who loves you from your split ends to your stubby toes.

i can chalk it up to my interests but in the end, and its sad, but i chalk it up to the physical. almost all brown guys i know go for the most beautiful girl they can find, and i know i'm cute in my own way, but the pattern of the brown boys around me shows a penchant for the conventional rather than the unconventional. in the end, i find myself dating guys who appreciate me for who i am not dating!

And white guys dont line up for the 'prettiest' girl?

In reference to 239, 242 -- I think a lot of guys do that, but in all reality, I think its because if your going to get blown off by some girl, she might as well hot, at least that way you can rationalize that she was out of your league. Maybe its a NYC thing, but I find both girls AND guys have massive attitudes... its like relax, I just want to talk and not trying to get into your pants.

Can someone define "alterna-desi" for me :-)

If I’ma rebel sanctioned by society, encouraged by my parents, and cheered on by Hallmark, what is left to rebel

Maybe its a NYC thing, but I find both girls AND guys have massive attitudes... its like relax, I just want to talk and not trying to get into your pants...

That's it I'm moving to North Dakota! ;-)

Can someone define "alterna-desi" for me :-)

If you see someone wearing this red and white T-shirt, they're definitely not one ;)

I was in this group of people (a couple of fobs and non-desis) when this abd walks up, introduces himself to all of us, then invites the two non-desis alone for some party he was going to have right *in front of us*.

I hear ya, brother, I hear ya. Or the ABD girl who would walk into my lab at grad school, say hi to everyone individually and leave me and my Bangladeshi colleague out. Now that I've worked off my FOBBY accent and mannerisms, you bet I don't have time for that kinda sh*t.

Now that I've worked off my FOBBY accent and mannerisms, you bet I don't have time for that kinda sh*t.

i still use fobbishness to weed out phonies :). useful trick up your sleeve, use it wisely.

my mother has told me that she has come to terms with the fact that i won't marry a brown guy. this is funny, because i am attracted to them and i definitely am open to a relationship with a brown guy; but no word of a lie, they aren't into me.

i think at this point... my mom just wants me to get married to someone....anyone...well let me qualify that... anyone of the male persuasion. i've been threatening to adopt kids from india and turn into a super-single-super-hot-super-involved mom. needless to say... that has not been going over very well with her.

but alas... i am the same girl who blurted out that she was preganant [i wasn't--not even close] during thanksgiving dinner just to see the look on her parents' faces. SOOO FUNNY!!! ;)

actually do you have to be a rebel to be 'alterna-desi?' b/c i dont have much to rebel against...but i dont do indian dance... i barely speak hindi... and i'm the only indian sailor i know [i've been sailing competitively since i was 8]... oh and i don't do SASA b/c all the kids were mean to me. so what does that make me? am i like a 'loner-desi?' or the 'castout-desi?' or my personal favorite... am i just another 'coconut?'

I'll admit that I have a slightly 'fobby' accent, due to the fact that English isn't the official language here, so I have not been able to really cultivate a British or US accent(unlike the kids at International school!). Although, I don't replace 'W' with 'V', and I most certainly don't say 'Amreeka'. ;)

All Mixed Up, I can't dance either. It's quite embarrassing actually. My movements are as wooden as a tree. I also don't speak Hindi, and I can barely comprehend my mother tongue.

I'll say though that for the most part I didn't conciously rebel. I just set out to do what appealed to me, only to realise later that apparently society has certain expectations of what a 'proper Indian' should behave like.

but alas... i am the same girl who blurted out that she was preganant [i wasn't--not even close] during thanksgiving dinner just to see the look on her parents' faces. SOOO FUNNY!!! ;)

muahaha i do things like that to my parents as well.

actually do you have to be a rebel to be 'alterna-desi?' b/c i dont have much to rebel against...but i dont do indian dance... i barely speak hindi... and i'm the only indian sailor i know [i've been sailing competitively since i was 8]... oh and i don't do SASA b/c all the kids were mean to me. so what does that make me? am i like a 'loner-desi?' or the 'castout-desi?' or my personal favorite... am i just another 'coconut?'

no i don't think you have to rebel to be one! its not about rebelling than about actually exploring your personal interests. to some extent it is rooted in non-conformity, but its often not in a conscious rebellious kind of way...maybe we're just more individualistic than our 'mainstream' desi brothers and sisters.
haha all the kids were mean to me as well. i guess that's where my deep-rooted 'hate' of all those dancing, bollywood, sasa types came from. one of my friends was talking to the president of our schools SAA (SASA) and said "really, what do you guys do besides dance?"

anyway we could start a whole post on the cliquey-ness pf those south asian student group members, but lets not.

Re:
"...anyway we could start a whole post on the cliquey-ness pf those south asian student group members, but lets not..."

Tempting... must resist...

and I most certainly don't say 'Amreeka'

Am-reeka is the correct pronounciation.

Agreed! As a fellow Tamilian, I've definitely refered to anyone north of the four southern states as "North Indian." How un-PC of me. :)

I prefer to refer to them as Afghans or Turks...

Nevertheless, men today (and I absolutely include myself in this), I feel, are perched on a kind of fragile masculinity. That is, we (many of us, I hope) have realized that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way we, and men of previous generations, were taught to be men, but we haven’t figured out ‘what next’? I think what’s next is that we should begin to realize that this is a struggle that we are all (men, women and children) engaged in and we’re all on the same side.

I personally prefer Harvey Mansfield's definition of masculinity

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300106645/sr=8-1/qid=1145404236/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3088474-1978408?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Spare a thought for Hemingway, Achilles, Nehru and others who embodied a more traditional masculinity...

Spare a thought for Hemingway, Achilles, Nehru and others who embodied a more traditional masculinity...

PropaMcGandhi- interesting that you (and esp. the women on the forum) choose not to respond to Reality Check's latest post- I think he make a good point.

Janeofalltrades and Anupa- hitting on the hottest girl in the room is definitely a *universally male* trait, I hope you weren't trying to imply it is a desi thing. ;)

Rama,

Are you referring to Reality Check's point back in comment 125? If so: That, on average, men are expected to be the bread winner is true in all societies thus, I think, doesn't really bear on the 1.5/2nd-generation male/female expecations differential dilemma.

But, to address it anyway: if the woman is having your child you'd damn well bring home the (turkey/veggie)bacon. And if she's not, well, then we've stepped outside of the world of traditional gender roles and the whole question is moot.

if you're refering to something else.. apologies! i lost track of this thread around comment 147 and just can't not read for class again... anyone wanna give me a 5-line synopsis?

Anupa,

how do you do the crossing-out thingy on this????

espressa- I was referring to comment #201, which delves a little deeper than the question you're answering.

Rama,
While you thought "Reality Check"'s made "a good point", I don't think very many other people who have been commenting did. In the interest of not starting another flame war on this thread that's been a pretty open, constructive conversation, it's best not to really get into it with someone who thinks

Girl's burden: expore her free-love-art and marry someone with money.

i was going to make a flippant remark about keeping quiet unless you want to remain celibate - but all those guys are dead and gone - who would be the embodiment of masculinity today - and a role model - for me it's my dad - solid, decent, protector, funny, lousy fashion sense, lean-on-me, anti-metrosexual, pillar-of-strength-in-good-times-and-bad type - but i suspect you odnt know him. is there a male role model outside fiction we can all look up to - contemporary and not necessarily sepiate. is this why movies and sports exist? to create deities where none exist? Oh... deep rickard induced thougts.

I was being modestly facetious, though I often lament the death of the male "hero". A solitary man, standing up against convention and oppression to rouse a people to greatness etc. etc. Though generally a leftist myself, I often feel that the post-modern left has destroyed the concept of heroism and greatness as a component of masculinity.

In terms of a non-fiction role model for masculinity, I suppose many men would look at their father. I certainly would.

Rama:

Sita is dead. Get over it.

RC's been living a sheltered life. Plenty of women 'keep' guys, especially when they date younger men. None of the women I know want to marry rich, and most of my friends are with men who either make less or make around the same amount of money they do. Many women I know don't even want to get married. They do the serial monogamy thing. Do you honestly think there are many women in the West who do not have to deal with paying their bills, married or not?

Dhaavak,
Interesting point. And if there isn't a "male" role model to look up to, maybe it's because we're waking up to how diverse and diffuse that category of "masculinity" is. No man can encapsulate all the possibilities. Are there men we can look up to? But of course. But a single persona that embodies "manliness" or "manhood"? Who gets to pick who that is? I don't think it would be fair to say "isn't there a female role model to look up to?" either because I certainly don't want one woman dictating what being a "woman" is all about.

I think (thankfully), we're moving beyond such simplistic gender definitions and paradigms. I konw a bunch of men I look up to - some are funny, some are stoic, some cry at every sad movie, some are rocks, some are leaners, some are straight, some are vegetarian, some cook a steak to perfection, some can do math, some are doctors, some dress like bums in a timewarp, some are artists, some know their politics, their movies, their fashion, their divas, their sports teams, their music, their theatre. All are bright and kind and sincere. How am I supposed to choose? I'll spare you a parallel list for women, but you get the picture. We've got lots of role models - let's not try and box them in as the last word in masculinity or femininity - it does both them and ourselves a disservice.

Some possible modern day embodiments of archetypical masculinity, who are public figures:

Frank Sinatra (though he's dead)
Edward R. Murrow (though he's dead too)
Rahul Dravid
Vivan Richards (two cricketers)
Pete Hammill
Bill Clinton

its actually not easy to find, which highlights more than anything else, the denigration of the public figure

brownfrown- again interesting that you choose to avoid responding to RC's comment #201 entirely by bringing up another comment of his, which I believe was made in the same sarcastic spirit as the "dude's burden: don't knock up that white chic" comment he was responding to. PropsMcGandhi did not respond to the post (#201) other than to make a joke about a spelling error, BTW. Care to enlighten us as to why yuo don't think it is a good point since nobody else has?

It's about the reality of rent, every 30 days, 12 times a year. Women can't simultaneously bemoan the lack of artsy men while not stepping up for their own financial independence. It's anti-feminist and hypocritical.

this point, then. you're/he's suggesting that alterna- means artsy means not financially stable. that assumption belongs in a bust bin. desi chics i know are VERY successful and seek equally successful men. open-minded and creative doesn't mean unemployed artist.

so.. i stand by to my initial dismissiveness toward these comments.

while "don't knock up the white chic" was indeed somewhat sarcastic.. i stand by the principle. its a lot harder to carry the culture than the last name.

Rama, maybe you can explain the 'point' in the statement that women are not 'stepping up' to financial independence. All around you (I assume you are living in the West) is evidence to the contrary. Few women are unequal to financial independence these days.

i just read #168!!!! PMG -- you are wonderful. it is SO great to hear a guy deliberate the same things we women do. but, you still have the advantage of a much kinda bio clock.... big props for you!!!

Do you honestly think there are many women in the West who do not have to deal with paying their bills, married or not?

Amen! Yup, the bills are always there, and always a very real burden on my female shoulders. I've had to compromise, too.

Maybe the idea that women don't have/share that burden is a little dated? I'm not saying that men don't feel pressure to be financially stable and secure, but could it be that is now being tied to a concept of masculinity rather than having the burden of bringing home the bacon?

*kinder* (i got so excited i forgot to spell-check)

but could it be that is now being tied to a concept of masculinity rather than having the burden of bringing home the bacon?

* clarification: not my concept of masculinity, just one that others may have about themselves.

Refusing to engage with and "avoiding" are two different things. But here, since you're so curious:

Women can't simultaneously bemoan the lack of artsy men while not stepping up for their own financial independence. It's anti-feminist and hypocritical.

Huh? "Who are these women who are not stepping up for their own financial independence"? Friends of his? Do they inhabit some alternate universe, perhaps? Or a period piece drama he once watched about the sublimated homoerotic tension between two men, forced into each others' arms thanks to their frigid and callous wives with penchents for expensive shoes and french perfume? Certainly no woman I know has or wants that "luxury". Maybe he needs to step up and hang out with more empowered women - or at least show us some evidence - cite your sources, RC, and make sure they're good.

metric ang –

Here's my theory: 'masculine’ men, want to ‘bring home the (turkey/veggie)bacon.’ It is the core of the misogynist’s worldview: women are weaker, both physically and financially thus need a man to be in the care of a man. A good strong man. Who will beat his chest and yell loudly about his house, his rules. This view comes into trouble when women stop complying with those ‘rules’ Misogynist’s response? “How dare you take my money and refuse my rules!!”

Ladies, stand up with me. We don’t need your money, honey. We have our own. What we need is a man like PMG and brownfrown (and others here, i'm sure) to walk with us, hold our hand, and we'll figure things out together.

this thread has left me dazed..what do women want..can anyone answer this question..seems like now the arty farty bum artist is "IN"...earlier it was the metrosexual...a friend of mine is even into gay guys!!!...aaaah.....

for all this talk it's always the alpha male self absorbed anti-feminist jock type who get the most play..go figure...

Some possible modern day embodiments of archetypical masculinity, who are public figures:

Ah come on, Adrian, it's true. I was nobody. But that don't matter either, you know? 'Cause I was thinkin', it really don't matter if I lose this fight. It really don't matter if this guy opens my head, either. 'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood

Rocky clearly takes the cake...

Huh? "Who are these women who are not stepping up for their own financial independence"? Friends of his?

I have no clue in the matter, but to be pedantic, Rama could be female. It was also (as in Raama), one of the names of Draupadi

ok.. i'll break my rule... fiction... my hero is rocky...

dhavaak,

I had promised myself that I would not comment on this thread. The promise still holds.

However, the scene from Rocky you described is one of the most beautiful from western cinema. Tarin, Tarin.

Back to work. Me know nothing.

for all this talk it's always the alpha male self absorbed anti-feminist jock type who get the most play..go figure...

Once again - change your social group or something if this is true. I don't think I've *ever* been with an alpha male, an anti-feminist or a jock. Self-absorbed - okay yeah I've known the joys of that. As for "what women want" let's not Cosmofy this discussion. We're all too smart to even assume there's some kind of singular answer to this already sort of ridiculous question. And hopefully we're each of us more than just passing trends to be consumed by people who think we're "in" or to be disgarded by those who think whatever we're about is "out".

for all this talk it's always the alpha male self absorbed anti-feminist jock type who get the most play..go figure...

This is a misconception b/c this is the type of male most likely to actually talk about his conquests. Ugh. I read an article recently that tested this misconception, and lo and behold - the artsy guys got the most "play".

If this post has revealed anything, it's that alterna-desi women have alot of appreciation/desire for their fellow alterna-desi men. This has not turned into a huge "all desi men are $%*&" rant that I've seen on other sites - which is awesome! :) I truly don't why Reality Check and a couple others got so bitter about their "$ burden"... or what it had to do with our man appreciation fest!

for all this talk it's always the alpha male self absorbed anti-feminist jock type who get the most play..go figure...

this will always be true. but getting play doesnt add up to good relationship. when girls talk about 'what we want' we're talking about a relationship.... but when a girl just wants some.... well, whole 'nother thing. i think the same works in the other direction. guys go for the hottest girl. but she's (too often) not the one he'd bring home to mommy.

i would never suggest that relationships inspired by superficial attraction can't work. just, in these kinds of discussions, you have a sampling error. you have the women who are looking for more, not the ones looking for a hook-up.

while most of us would propbably go for, say, this guy in a heartbeat... it's not what we're "looking" for.

confused desi guy

for all this talk it's always the alpha male self absorbed anti-feminist jock type who get the most play..go figure...

never!! i've got my sights set on a weak-looking, psuedo-hipster, nerd glasses-wearing, "economist" reading brown boy at the moment!

and to reality check; myself personally, i'm not going through all of this school just so i can get married and sit on my ass. any financial "shortcomings" should be addressed by you and the male-dominated corporate world. once i know that my pay isn't any less just because i'm a woman then we can talk about women not stepping up to the plate.

Ah come on, Adrian, it's true. I was nobody. But that don't matter either, you know? 'Cause I was thinkin', it really don't matter if I lose this fight. It really don't matter if this guy opens my head, either. 'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood

I had promised myself that I would not comment on this thread. The promise still holds.

Ladies, stand up with me. We don’t need your money, honey. We have our own.

Oh god good yes. Why are we even debating this. Living in NYC I don't know any golddiggers. I've been working my ass of since I was 15 for Christs sake, every single thing I own I bought for myself, I can't even believe I have to still prove that the money is not what I'm after with a guy.

I can buy my own shit. I need you to carry it for me. I can pay my own rent. I hope you pay your own too. I can buy my own car. I need you to get it washed sometimes....I can't believe we are even having this conversation especially on this board of all places where the majority of women are all independent :-)

this thread has left me dazed..what do women want..can anyone answer this question..seems like now the arty farty bum artist is "IN"...earlier it was the metrosexual...a friend of mine is even into gay guys!!!...aaaah.....

Oh my confused friend. Any guy that treats us well, respects us and likes us for who we are is in. He can be tall, short, stout, skinny, bald, hairy, handsome, average, smart, witty, shy, or nothing in partiular thing. Every one of us is as different as the men we like. We aren't replacing heterosexual men with gay men don't worry. We just happen to be gay friendly.

for all this talk it's always the alpha male self absorbed anti-feminist jock type who get the most play..go figure...

Oh come now thats crazy talk. Here is what Neil Chethik of Voicemale says.

espressa,

this will always be true. but getting play doesnt add up to good relationship. when girls talk about 'what we want' we're talking about a relationship.... but when a girl just wants some.... well, whole 'nother thing. i think the same works in the other direction. guys go for the hottest girl. but she's (too often) not the one he'd bring home to mommy.

Yeah but that's what kills us ...basically the jocks/himbos get the sex WITHOUT the hard slog (the "relationship" if you will)...

most guys i know don't want to be the guy brought home to mommy at all....even after the wedding ... :)

consolation boys: you don't get the hot casual sex ..instead..you get a lifelong commitment...oh whoppeee

never!! i've got my sights set on a weak-looking, psuedo-hipster, nerd glasses-wearing, "economist" reading brown boy at the moment!

anupa ..your digits ..:)

i told myself i wouldnt refresh...

ConfusedDesiGuy:

I didn't mean to apologize for society. My point was simply that what may seem true of the whole is not true for the part, see, e.g. Anupa.

if 'just sex' is what you're after, i'm sure you can find it.

Living in NYC I don't know any golddiggers

C'mon... This is the city that inspired Candace Bushnell's vapid vision.

Seriously though, most desi women I meet in the city are refreshingly independent and talented.

Yeah Hari but these are desi women we are talking about. Their parents aren't letting them go anywhere without getting an education and well paying job or atleast something substantial. As badass as they want to be at the end of they the cultural burdent ensures they aren't exactly air headed uneduated gold diggers. All the fluff is an afterthought.

Some of the points I'm about to make have already been said by some of my more eloquent sistas here, but I feel the need to chime in -- solidarity, if you will.

First, the insinuation that women are not stepping up to the plate financially is completely asinine. I have been raised (by my uber conservative parents, no less) to push myself to be financially independent. My hope -- no, assumption/goal -- is that regardless of whom I marry, I would be making enough money to support my family singlehandedly. As someone else said, what the hell do you think we are all doing, increasing the numbers of women who are in graduate school? Sure, we might be there for intellectual gratification, but that advanced degree is going to come with a nice salary increase as well. When I realized that I tended to be attracted to men who did not have traditionally high-paying jobs, that only increased the pressure I put on myself to earn enough money. How stupid do we have to be to be into "poor" guys and then drop the financial ball? As if.

And regarding the idea that we're into poor guys -- pffft. Firstly, nobody on here said that we wanted artsy farsty guys -- that was an assumption made by some of the guys. Secondly, why must artsy fartsy be equated with "bum" or "poor?" That's an antiquated thought that I'd hear more readily from my parents, not my peers! I personally want someone who is creative, but that doesn't mean a broke-ass scrub. A scientist can be creative, for crying out loud! Talk about stereotyping! I want a man who thinks for himself; I'd probably have a hard time being with a doctor who hates his job and only went to med school because his parents pressured him to do so. I want someone who is confident, well read, open minded, cultured, well traveled -- a female version of me, really. And ME? I am not artsy fartsy, a commie, or broke!

But to play devil's advocate for a moment, my guess is that the women who are posting on this thread probably have desi women friends who have similar mindsets. Birds of a feather, right? We have the luxury of believing that not only do we represent the best of desi women, but that we represent the majority of desi women. Not true, in my experience. I know plenty of Indian women who definitely want their man to be the breadwinner; who won't get enaged without a fat rock on the finger; who got married in their early 20s, largely for financial security (and I hope love as well).

Yeah but that's what kills us ...basically the jocks/himbos get the sex WITHOUT the hard slog (the "relationship" if you will)...

most guys i know don't want to be the guy brought home to mommy at all....even after the wedding ... :)

consolation boys: you don't get the hot casual sex ..instead..you get a lifelong commitment...oh whoppeee

Wait a second. If it's sex you are seeking thats way easy unless you are stuck in the corfields of Iowa. It's the relationship shit that's difficult.

CDG

Yeah but that's what kills us ...basically the jocks/himbos get the sex WITHOUT the hard slog (the "relationship" if you will)...

Yes, you're so right - that's exactly what I see most of the women on this thread going for. I'm sorry you feel like you're not turned into a piece of meat often enough. Perhaps you should try sharing these thoughts with your next lady-friend that you would like to bag without having to speak to ever again. Maybe, you'll actually see her breathe a sigh of relief that she doesn't have to spare you a second thought.

I'm sorry that the women who seem to be into you are interested in more than a roll in the hay. That must be really hard. You should maybe pick up some tricks from those jocks who you're envious of. Don't call back ever, hit on her sister, puke all over her new shoes, pick a bar brawl with the guy who accidentally brushed his arm against hers while reaching for the matches - I'm sure the ladies will be lined up around the block for a chance to get a piece of that action.

Calm down, CDG - we *like* the nerds - why don't you believe it?

Yeah Hari but these are desi women we are talking about. Their parents aren't letting them go anywhere without getting an education and well paying job or atleast something substantial. As badass as they want to be at the end of they the cultural burdent ensures they aren't exactly air headed uneduated gold diggers. All the fluff is an afterthought.

I guess that was what I was trying to say. The desi women I know in New York (most of them, at least), don't fit the airhead gold-digger stereotype that is commonyl associated with the city at all

Whoa..estrogen minefield alert...

all I was doing was calling out the majority of women (in my experience) on what they "claim" to want verus who actually gets the pie ...

apparently SM women are predominantly the non-superficial demographic..good on ya..

CDG -- it's no wonder you're not getting the play you desire.

"Estrogen minefield alert?"

Try BRAINS minefiled alert!

er, minefield.

If it's sex you are seeking thats way easy unless you are stuck in the corfields of Iowa.

*Sigh* Girl...you have no idea.

Err I meant earlier "If it's sex you are seeking thats way easy unless you are stuck in the corfields of Iowa." (and this doesn't apply to Rupa our resident tornado rider)

BRAINS minefiled alert

lacks that certain zing i think..

hmm...i thought i made my peace by exempting all SM women from the ditz sweepstakes.....mv ..still baying for my blood I see.. :)

CDG, you seem like a nice young man but I have to address this:

Whoa..estrogen minefield alert...

Attributing a woman's vocalization of her opinion to a hormonal outburst/"it's that time of the month" does not impress the ladies.

CDG-you just portrayed yourself as a sex-crazed commitment-phobic "TYPICAL DUDE" then proceed to ask for my digits (calm down-i know it was a joke!)!

way to make a good impression!

let me break it down (in the most generalized, stereotypical way possible).

most women want someone they can see themselves marrying; this doesn't mean all women want to marry you, it means that we want someone who will be good to us. the bad ass isn't gonna be good to us. neither is the womenbasher, the patronizer, or the dude without a clue. i'm talking, ideally here.

and keep in mind, i said women-not girls.

Attributing a woman's vocalization of her opinion to a hormonal outburst/"it's that time of the month" does not impress the ladies.

I apologize for that..it was out of line...

Oh it must be hysteria.

anupa....No..not the dude without a clue...noooooooo....

Maybe we've all been posting on this thread long enough that our cycles have synched up.

This must be a Sepia Mutiny commenting world record. And you know how we desis are about setting records. Score.

because really, what is there to say?

Apply that to "Guy's only job: don't knock up white chick", and we have a deal.

while "don't knock up the white chic" was indeed somewhat sarcastic.. i stand by the principle. its a lot harder to carry the culture than the last name.

Lay off those Fitty Cent videos, sis. Fathers do a lot more than bestowing their Venkatasubramanian.

i'm not going through all of this school just so i can get married and sit on my ass.

Good on you, and good on all the rest of you empowered Mutineergrrrls. And I'm glad that a flippant response to flippancy fuels your homoerotic fantasies. There's nothing I like more than being a social lubricant.

Back to the point: The women who complain about the lack of alternadesis (visibly alternative ones, sorry, scientists don't count) often still expect men to be the primary earners. And the number of careers where you can show off your dog collar, fro, tats and piercings and also support a family, pimped out autorickshaw style, is still pretty narrow.

does anyone want me working or not? :)

this thread has taken so many directions, it could well qualify to be made into a movie. complete with all sorts of characters. just make up a story why each comment was said, and there you go.

Pishposh, this is way better than work :)

Back to the point: The women who complain about the lack of alternadesis (visibly alternative ones, sorry, scientists don't count) often still expect men to be the primary earners. And the number of careers where you can show off your dog collar, fro, tats and piercings and also support a family, pimped out autorickshaw style, is still pretty narrow.

Who are these women? Where do they exist?

scientists don't count

Oh please. I think we've already addressed the idea that "alternative" is not referring to a person's fashion sensibility. I know plenty of guys who fit the alterna-desi bill who have science-related jobs.

"Visibly alternative" is a synonym for superficial/shallow -- and the women who want that, if they do in fact exist, probably deserve those dudes.

Bytwords: Did u read my Mind:)

Any aspiring Screenwriter/Director can take these different experiences and weave a wonderful story and make a great movie out of it.

Sepiates: Now u know whats your next goal is '400'. Go for it. I am there to cheer and all our sistas will join.

Hmmmm! I just luv lurking:)

Pishposh, this is way better than work :)

and then you all complain there is no cure for aids and we still drive cars that run on gasoline :)...

most women i know earn comparable amounts to their husbands, gold-digger hardly ever comes to mind. a couple of my friends are married to women who are doctors. due to various visa issues that is meant to keep docs out of US, they have to jump through several hoops before they can start their practice. my friends see it as a five year ambush ooportunity--- after five years their wives will earn 10x their salary, so they can "retire". and mess up their kid's brains :).

What a difference 24 hours makes! Somewhere near 190, Shruti writes:

Funnily enough, most of my alterna-desi-sistas actually lean away from dating white guys when they date interracially. Part of this is probably b/c we live in California, which generally is more diverse, but I have my theories on why this tends to be the case.

Hmmm :) Please share.

Ok, here's my theory, and maybe it's a bit essentialist. I think that generally understanding racial privilege, compounded with understanding patriarchy and how one fits into it, is pretty rare. Perhaps they tend to date non-white (when they date interracially) because it's assumed that men of color "just get it." I'm not arguing about the veracity of this assumption, I just think that this is often the case. But I think it depends on your circle, too. There are definitely hipster desis who might not necessarily align with the kind of "lefty" desis. Oh well, just babbling.

Back to the point: The women who complain about the lack of alternadesis (visibly alternative ones, sorry, scientists don't count) often still expect men to be the primary earners. And the number of careers where you can show off your dog collar, fro, tats and piercings and also support a family, pimped out autorickshaw style, is still pretty narrow.

Camille wrote:

Ok, here's my theory, and maybe it's a bit essentialist. I think that generally understanding racial privilege, compounded with understanding patriarchy and how one fits into it, is pretty rare. Perhaps they tend to date non-white (when they date interracially) because it's assumed that men of color "just get it." I'm not arguing about the veracity of this assumption, I just think that this is often the case. But I think it depends on your circle, too. There are definitely hipster desis who might not necessarily align with the kind of "lefty" desis. Oh well, just babbling.

Without being exclusive to the white guys that do "get it" (because they do exist) I have to agree with you on your point that, in general, men of color "just get it" and white men just don't. At least that's been my experience, and maybe it's different for me because I'm an organizer dealing with RCG (race/class/gender) issues and my male friends are mostly men of color who are also organizers/activists. I'm also very sensitive to race issues, so men of color have won my affections with their natural understanding of these issues, as they are subjected to racism as much as I am (though not in the same way, of course). To a great extent, understanding the roots of racism facilitates understanding the roots of misogyny, so "getting" the race thing is something I require for any guy that I enter a romantic relationship with. The really down guys who get all these things... well, there aren't that many that are straight or even bi. Booooo :(

Sorry, just to clarify real quick, because I did defend desi men earlier in the thread, I realize that there are a lot of down guys--desi at that. My last line in my last post was a reference to the fact that, where I am, they're all either taken, or they're not interested in me.

they're all either taken, or they're not interested in me.

Like they say, all good men are dead, married [or gay]. =D

But seriously, what's up with all the stereotypes that's been bandying about?

Everybody has a different (hopefully, educated) idea of what makes them happy. I think by the time girls are older, we would have probably exorcised the bad ass punk jock guy who only wants to get laid by that interesting non white girl. Similarly, when guys get older, they pretty much would have exorcised the damn she's hot, who cares what she's talking about kinda girl. By then, I assume, your hormones pretty much stop ruling the playing field THAT much.

There's no point having a long list of criteria of your future partner and grouping them up into various little boxes you have, crossing out metrosexuals and limp wristers. Because when you are too busy stereotyping and making a list, you're too busy looking at the list to see what's out there.

And seriously, give everybody a little credit. We're all different individuals!

( oh god, I sound like one of those little counselling pamphelets we get in high school)

p/s: Nobody said no standa

oh sorry, excuse the "p/s" I forgot to delete it !

Its funny, all the women say there are no good men left, and all the men say there are no good women left. Obviously this is just a matching problem... because as a guy i can definately say after moving to NYC a vast majority of women i have met are self proclaimed urban divas sophisticates, when in reality their vapid - to good for you - personalities are tantamount to warm pasta on a peak day. ha, All this can be solved with a Sepia Destiny tab .

RC in #308

while "don't knock up the white chic" was indeed somewhat sarcastic.. i stand by the principle. its a lot harder to carry the culture than the last name.

Lay off those Fitty Cent videos, sis. Fathers do a lot more than bestowing their Venkatasubramanian.

Yes, of course. But we're, well I was, talking about the initial, superficial, first-impression check-list. I'm talking about sterotypes and minimum standards to satiate future in-laws. The guys needs a job and lack of baby-mamma-dramma. The girl get scrutinized a lot more closely.

Thus, because its easy for them, guys tend to buy into the desi ideals. Have your fun, sow your oats, then find a good girl. There are plenty of them and if you want even more variety, there's a whole Sub Continent for your taking!

While girls, held to more restrctive standards, have greater incentive to buck them. Do you really not see this?

And how did 50 get brought into this?

Apologies for the bad block-quoting in my previous post. The "Lay off those Fitty Cent videos, sis. Fathers do a lot more than bestowing their Venkatasubramanian." belongs in the quote. I'll start previewing before I post.

Hi there. Other commitments got in the way of mutineering yesterday, and I guess I missed… a lot.

Reality Check: I thought hard about whether or not I should respond to your comment and decided against it because I honestly don’t think you want to have a thoughtful dialogue about the issue. It seemed to me that you were just trying to provoke me into a bout of angry name-calling (which, by the way, I am very good at so watch yo’self!) In any case, if you really do want to have a serious discussion then I’m happy to do so either publicly here or over email. In that case, I ask that you reread what I said, because I did put a lot of myself into that post, and respond with more than one piquant (your word, spelled correctly) or misogynistic (my word) line.

All: While reading the last 100+ comments one rather depressing thought occurred to me. Are we as desi men (or perhaps men in general) so flimsy and utterly pathetic that we must base our politics, our world view and even our hobbies on “what women want”? Can’t we play in a band because we love music, not because “women want musicians”? Can’t we write poetry to express our emotions, not because “women want sensitive guys”? Can’t we play sports because it’s damn fun, not because “women want jocks”? I absolutely do not understand this desire to be a consumer-group-tested human being.

I also, quite frankly, think it’s incredibly insulting to think that if you have the right haircut, the right shoes and the right persona that women will fall to the ground writhing and convulsing with uncontrollable desire as you walk past. If thinking that women are so Pavlovian that you can manipulate them with the right stimuli is not misogyny then I don’t know what it is.

Lastly, I would say that I think being an alterna-desi is really quite simple. It’s about believing in what you do, believing in what you say, and believing in what you believe.

Spare a thought for Hemingway, Achilles, Nehru and others who embodied a more traditional masculinity...

Masculinity-Shmasculinity can go to hell. I am quite fine with exploring a wider spectrum of gender and sexuality. There's room to do that nowadays if you are willing to shed some inhibitions and stereotypes. And no, it doesn't mean there are fewer women who find you attractive, but only different ones :)

Re"
"...Its funny, all the women say there are no good men left, and all the men say there are no good women left. Obviously this is just a matching problem... because as a guy i can definately say after moving to NYC a vast majority of women i have met are self proclaimed urban divas sophisticates, when in reality their vapid - to good for you - personalities are tantamount to warm pasta on a peak day. ha, All this can be solved with a Sepia Destiny tab..."

Hola?? We have the distinction of being the second most populous country in the world. Come on now. =)

I am quite fine with exploring a wider spectrum of gender and sexuality

Achilles was gay...

Masculinity is only tangentialyl related to gender and sexuality (i.e. Dame Thatcher)

Are we as desi men (or perhaps men in general) so flimsy and utterly pathetic that we must base our politics, our world view and even our hobbies on “what women want”? Can’t we play in a band because we love music, not because “women want musicians”? Can’t we write poetry to express our emotions, not because “women want sensitive guys”? Can’t we play sports because it’s damn fun, not because “women want jocks”? I absolutely do not understand this desire to be a consumer-group-tested human being.

I find that as I get older and circulate in a circle of "older single desi chicks" this is something even I as a woman question. Women no longer want to do any "self centric" activity. Everything is "man centric". Anytime a social event comes up the inevitable question that goes around the table is "Will there be cute boys there?" What the hay, I'll be there, your friend, who's been your friend for a long time, isn't my company good enough?

I find it incredibly hard to find 30+ female friends willing to participate in activities that don't involve "meeting a guy" or "getting their game on". I have literally one or two girlfriends who are willing to go to art galleries or meet for breakfast in their sweats with just me without hoping they would meet a man as a result of it. All the rest of them will only show up at events where they can be half naked & ready to mingle. Sigh.

So it isn't just men, women do it far more then men do IMO.

Achilles was gay...

Based on what I know of The Illiad (along with.....er.....Brad Pitt's recent movie on the subject), I thought that Achilles swung in both directions.

JoaT,

Women no longer want to do any "self centric" activity. Everything is "man centric"......I find it incredibly hard to find 30+ female friends willing to participate in activities that don't involve "meeting a guy" or "getting their game on".

I've met desi women here in the UK rapidly approaching 30 who have also behaved in this way -- and I'm talking about highly-educated professionals, including individuals who certainly weren't so "feverish" and obsessive about this matter when they were younger (early 20s etc). It's interesting (and sometimes tragic) what the biological clock, female peer pressure, and constant parental "get married quick" pressure can do to some South Asian women over a prolonged period of time.

It occurs to me that if we want to meet suitable boys and girls, perhaps we should be spending less intimate time with our komputers and more time out in the real world, where chicks can diss the men for not being a body-modded alpha male and boys can overlook us women for the prettier girl in the room. ;)

Oh and PMG, regarding post #321 -- Amen.

It occurs to me that if we want to meet suitable boys and girls, perhaps we should be spending less intimate time with our komputers and more time out in the real world

Hehehe I agree that's why I only do it on my employeer's time and when I'm deathly ill and unsexy and coupled up at home like now!

somewhere around comment #300, someone said:

Maybe we've all been posting on this thread long enough that our cycles have synched

that is the funniest thing i have read all day! but then it struck me...if a guy had written that, i'd imagine that would have received a lot more (negative) attention?!

to JOAT (#325): yes, it happens to me too! i especially hate the question "Will there be cute boys there?" - first, it just sounds so shallow and after the #355th time, it's hard to come up with a flippant response, and second, since when must every social activity be guided by this mission to find someone? in response to PMG (around #320)...no, it doesn't just happen to men, women fall into the same trap.

Based on what I know of The Illiad (along with.....er.....Brad Pitt's recent movie on the subject), I thought that Achilles swung in both directions.

Correct. I guess he was bisexual

yes, bisexuality was a common enough phenomenon in greek culture. achilles, as well as a lot of other greek figures (historical or characters) would have been bisexual.

still have the question in #185. while it is a carnatic piece for sure, but i can't recognize the raga in the short duration. i strongly think the artist is prasant an abd from phoenix, playing with his band vidya. someone *has* to tell me the answer sometime soon, it is eating me up.

I find it incredibly hard to find 30+ female friends willing to participate in activities that don't involve "meeting a guy" or "getting their game on". I have literally one or two girlfriends who are willing to go to art galleries or meet for breakfast in their sweats with just me without hoping they would meet a man as a result of it. All the rest of them will only show up at events where they can be half naked & ready to mingle. Sigh.

This is really problematic, on so many levels. I've seen this happen too, but I feel like it goes into the creation of this entire marriage myth. You know, the one where unless we are all vyaa'd (or shaadi'd) up by 30 our eggs will suddenly shrivel and we will die in twitching heaps. This is of course b/c the only reason women exist is to get married (and by extension, have kids). Of course this isn't desi specific, but it's really concerning. I mean, why can't we all be fabulous bachelorettes if we so choose instead of being "old maids"? I guess these are really basic questions, but reading this makes me sad in that it seems that while things are changing, they're changing v e r y s l o w l y

i strongly think the artist is prasant an abd from phoenix, playing with his band vidya. someone *has* to tell me the answer sometime soon, it is eating me up.

My point again: It is bad manners to dis men for not being visibly artsy while not acknowledging the reason, and the reason is that they're working their asses off to support their families.

When I flipped the statement - "women are not sufficiently financially independent" - propamcg called it misogyny.

Then the original statement is misandry by definition.

*********

propamcgandhi said>>

I ask that you reread what I said, because I did put a lot of myself into that post, and respond with more than one piquant (your word, spelled correctly) or misogynistic (my word) line.

You wrote: "this one is absoultely beyond my grasp." Can we move beyond typos now?

You do realize that women's financial independence is one of the core tenets of feminism.

Your argument about overly limiting gender roles seems misapplied here. Most people who cut paychecks are not vanguards of cultural change.

espressa said>>

I'm talking about sterotypes and minimum standards to satiate future in-laws. The guys needs a job and lack of baby-mamma-dramma. The girl get scrutinized a lot more closely.

The guy also needs a graduate degree and family members who are wealthy and non-divorced. The woman gets scrunitized more closely in the meeting, but the guy gets filtered out before it ever happens.

milli said>>

I think we've already addressed the idea that "alternative" is not referring to a person's fashion sensibility.

Actually, you're defining something more like "progressive". Try searching on the number of times piercings are mentioned on this page alone.

Who are these women? Where do they exist?

All over my hood, clearly not in yours. Lucky you.

"Visibly alternative" is a synonym for superficial/shallow...

This is insulting to our pierced brethren, and not true either of the ones I know.

Can I get an amen.

RC:

1) You might want to invest in a dictionary.
2) Have YOU done a search for the word "piercing" on this page? It might serve you well to do so and then study the context in which the word is used. (And by the way, I believe the word appears most frequently in posts written by yours truly, with the qualifier that outward symbols such as piercings do not make a person "cool" or "alternative.")
3) If a woman is actually *superficial* or *shallow* enough to demand that her significant other decorate himself in emblems of rebellion that say nothing about his character or intellect, then you're probably right -- they are silly enough to be dependent wives.
4) I seriously doubt that the reason men are not visibly artsy is because they're working their asses off to support their families. No, a better reason might be because they were too scared to tell mummy dearest that they wanted to pursue liberal arts instead of business or science. Most of my desi male friends are working their asses off in the creative arts and making sh!tloads of money to boot. A truly "artsy" MAN would pursue his passions and turn them into successes, and I know plenty who have done just that.

Maybe you need to move to a different hood, RC.

disgraced lipsyncer wrote>>

You might want to invest in a dictionary.

Thanks for the advice, champ:

But I am upfront about drinking and drug use

Fast foward a decade later

Try BRAINS minefiled alert!

I seriously doubt that the reason men are not visibly artsy is because they're working their asses off to support their families. No, a better reason might be because they were too scared to tell mummy dearest that they wanted to pursue liberal arts instead of business or science.

The way you phrased your post drips of misandry.

I'm too much of a hater

Exactly.

You do realize that women's financial independence is one of the core tenets of feminism.

brotha-man....!

says dictionary.com of feminism:
1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

says wiki of feminism:
Feminism is a diverse, competing, and often opposing collection of social theories, political movements, and moral philosophies, largely motivated by or concerning the experiences of women. Most feminists are especially concerned with social, political, and economic inequality between men and women; some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman," are socially constructed. Feminists differ over the sources of inequality, how to attain equality, and the extent to which gender and sexual identities should be questioned and critiqued. Thus, as with any ideology, political movement or philosophy, there is no single, universal form of feminism that represents all feminists.

Feminism is about voice and choice. Trophy-wife feminist is NOT a contradiction of terms.

A dictionary for definitions, not spelling, RC. Sigh.

The guy also needs a graduate degree and family members who are wealthy and non-divorced.

ok. i kinda want a dude with a grad degree. mostly cuz i think i'm much smarter than i actually am and being with a guy who also thinks that is..just..uncomfortable. that said, i've dated college drop-outs who can out-wit me into a puddle of desire.

wealthy? i dunno. my fam is from the hood. and i DIG that.

non-divorced parents... hmmm... i think this is a fair element to consider. not dispositive. but i do believe that your parents set your expectations for a relationship and having a good example is a good thing. again... not dispositive.

and RC ... stop mis-quoting milli.

Thus, as with any ideology, political movement or philosophy, there is no single, universal form of feminism that represents all feminists.

Feminism is about voice and choice. Trophy-wife feminist is NOT a contradiction of terms.

I disagree. Feminism is broad, like any other [...], but that doesn't mean that any choice a woman makes or any sentiment she articulates is by definition feminist simply because it is feminist to validate her right to make that choice. You're confusing the results of feminism (greater choice and voice of women) with the pursuit of feminism (actions, behaviors, etc. undertaken to try to or that will allow women gain more choices and voice).

All that said, I understand that these issues are complicated and women need to navigate between a million and one different things, and all of their choices and sentiments should be taken seriously; I won't argue with you there. I'm just saying that not all of those choices can reasonably be described as "feminist" if the term is to retain any sense of meaningfulness.

I'm just saying that not all of those choices can reasonably be described as "feminist" if the term is to retain any sense of meaningfulness.

You're confusing the results of feminism (greater choice and voice of women) with the pursuit of feminism (actions, behaviors, etc. undertaken to try to or that will allow women gain more choices and voice).

Then how you go about getting what you want is another thing, again, I'll agree. But would you rather define a movement by its methods or by its vision? I stick with vision.

This is really problematic, on so many levels. I've seen this happen too, but I feel like it goes into the creation of this entire marriage myth. You know, the one where unless we are all vyaa'd (or shaadi'd) up by 30 our eggs will suddenly shrivel and we will die in twitching heaps. This is of course b/c the only reason women exist is to get married (and by extension, have kids). Of course this isn't desi specific, but it's really concerning. I mean, why can't we all be fabulous bachelorettes if we so choose instead of being "old maids"?

If you ask a majority of these women, me included, it isn't always about "marriage" infact it very rarely is about marriage. And the "biological clock" everyone talks about isn't about babies, sometimes it is simply about needing love/sex/affection. After being single, many of them, thru all their adult lives a level of desperation does set in, call it lonliness, call it society pressure whatever. Most want to just be in a steady and loving relationship, they don't care to validate it as marriage.

And there are always trite suggestions like "read a book instead" or "go for a walk" by another sista. I think because there is so much stigma about "wanting to be in a relationship" and so many people are so confused by modern day feminism that they think it means rejecting men women are continually given messages by media/other women that say "what do you need a man for?" I think very few people stop to think that the need for a man is very rarely because a woman wants to have babies or have her rent paid, at least these days.

You wonder when you'll meet someone and when you'll ever date and eventually get married to ever have a family. Because we still live in a society/culture (Indian albeit being in the west) all these things can happen only if we get married. And a 35 year old woman feels that pinch because chances are strong that after the age of 25 she's watched most of her friends find partners, get married and have babies and she's been missing the boat.

I understand all of this believe me I've had these thoughts too. I just wish sometimes they'd give themselves a break from these stresses and just go hang with their friends and not worry about meeting the future husband.

Liked your comment, Jane. In the West, there's no guarantee for the endurance of any relationship, whenever or however it is formed. Plenty of people are married for twenty years and then divorce. Imagine being fifty and suddenly being alone. If you can't handle it at 30, what'll it be like at 50? So women have got to get over the sense that their happiness/identity is bound up in a relationship. No need not to acknowledge how much a man can give you, but maybe we need to give up on the dream of 'eternal love'.

Good God. This is the first chance I've had to sit in front of a computer in a week, and I'm definitely not reading through all 344 comments. However, I would like to address one very important thing to come out of this discussion:

espressa (#276):

Ladies, stand up with me. We don’t need your money, honey.

I need your money. Which is why I'm auctioning off PropaMcGandhi to the highest bidder. Takers?

it isnt the posting but the tidal sway in the mutterings that's the message. - subverted mccluhan.

heard on The Current (CBC.ca) hosted by Tremonti.

I paraphrase - because society can not continue down the trajectory of declining birth rates the need of the hour is a correction which will transition us to a strongly patriarchal society. The realaudio's not been posted yet, but i'd recommend you listen in. Fairly controversial stuff running against the grain of the individual perspective, but well aligned with the frustrations expressed in posts on needing to run against the grain


do your observations reflect this swing? JOAT? DQ?

Madurai, as auctioneer you have to set the lowest bid.

We're waiting with bated breath.

Dhaavak,

I don't think my observation confirmed any 'swing' in society's viewpoint. Rather, it reaffirmed something educated women have been haranguing themselves and others about for decades. Stop moping cause you don't have a man. It's not the first time, it's not the second, and it won't be the last. Get over it and stop taking relationships so seriously. I don't think it's about 'running against the grain', but acceptance of reality - you have little to no control over when your relationships start and end. They run their course, like streams and rivers. Sometimes they're half a kilometre long, sometimes 10 miles.

Incidentally, everyone knows men who mope about not having a woman, it's just not acceptable for men to mope in public. Hence the lack of mopey men on this thread. The popular image of men is of emotionless, purely sex-driven, commitment-phobic alphas - a lot of rot that does as much disservice to men as the Bridget Jones 'I can't live without a man' stuff does for women.

Imagine being fifty and suddenly being alone. If you can't handle it at 30, what'll it be like at 50? So women have got to get over the sense that their happiness/identity is bound up in a relationship. No need not to acknowledge how much a man can give you, but maybe we need to give up on the dream of 'eternal love'.

I don't need to imagine. I have a mother who divorced in her 20s and never got remarried. I see what it is like to be in your 50s with no husband. She lives well and is super happy but she still has 30something years to go. My problem is with being told "get over it because you might end up alone and you better get used to it". My problem is the negative reaction a woman gets from expressing that she does need a man and love because of the current feminist climate.

At work we are a 5some, all girls, all of them are either married, engaged or in a relationship. Not me. If I even mutter a word about not finding a date I get "Oh come on you are fabulous you don't need a man". What does being fabulous have to do with wanting a man? Will I be less fabulous if I found one? And if you have a man and found one early on with ease how can you relate to me?

And DQ I'm an eternal optimist. Most women aren't looking for perfection just something substantial. I don't believe in giving up on that dream. It makes life worth living when you have hope for the future. I think it would be sad if I just gave up on finding love. On Valentines day I heard things like "Oh it's so overrated you aren't missing anything out" from women who got flowers and fawned over their jeweled V-day gifts. Thanx but I'd like to find out for myself at least once how overrated this is.

I paraphrase - because society can not continue down the trajectory of declining birth rates the need of the hour is a correction which will transition us to a strongly patriarchal society.

I'm a huge believer in family and the concept of 'it takes a village'. If we are to improve the future of the society we live in and reverse some of the ills that plague society good family values are the only way to do it. I live on an island filled with self absorbed individuals who live in the now, who don't believe in monogamy and don't find value in the concept of marriage. I find that frightening.

Being in Manhattan is like being stuck in a Twilight Zone episode. Progressive societies in the world are starting to see declining birth rates, Japan has one of the most significant and a growing single population. At some point people start questioning the choices made by society. I liked where feminism asked to respect and hold a woman in just high a regard as a man. I liked the empowerment the movement gave to women on all levels. But I'm starting to see the current feminist climate tell me, a woman, that you don't need a man or need to have babies now. This direction of individual existence is actually depressing to me because at this rate we'll be a society of self absorbed individuals in the future.

janeoftrades: I am just in awe of that comment. Beautifully put.

er, janeofalltrades that is. And that 'just' shouldn't be there, either.

Jane,

I hear you about not being able to express your need for a man in a feminist climate. You should be able to do so. Men say they need a woman all the time! It's just the dreamy 'forever love' schtick that, in my opinion, women have to get beyond. I think it stops women from having fun - asking guys out, going to bars alone, having flings, having sex-only arrangements. Do some of this, be confident and sexy, and you will be surprised at how quickly you become an object of envy to the women around you who are hooked up. You might even find yourself reluctant to be boxed up in a relationship.

I have quite a few female friends in their 50s. Only one of them is in a happy marriage. The others are all married, but one is in a sexless marriage and has no clue why her hubby isn't interested anymore, another is with a man who can't hold down a job and spends her money, another is with a workaholic, another is with an alcoholic. Very few of them get fawned over for V-Day. The whole 'fawning' thing is fleeting, and doesn't reflect the reality of the vast majority of relationships. If you look for that in love, you are going to be disappointed, if not at first, then sometime down the road.

Jane, having read your comment on 'family values', I suspect I'll be put down as just another 'self-absorbed' product of our corrupt society but here goes anyway...

It is more self-absorbed to brood on one's lack of a man and how unhappy and unlucky one is in relation to other women, than to get out there, forget about it and have fun. There's a lot of ways of being self-absorbed. An unmarried, childless female who devotes her life to poetry or to medicine or human rights , for example, is to my mind a lot worthier person than some chick who cries every night cause she's not married yet.

The family values crap being marketed around the US is a simple-minded, black-and-white reduction of human worth to conformity to a specific social model.

I agree that it's very hard to express the desire for a boyfriend/husband/relationship in today's climate -- or at least the circles that I travel in. Perhaps as a reaction to the anti-commitment feeling that pervades my social scene, I've been unabashedly open about wanting to "get married and have babies." It's become something of a joke now amongst my friends -- one that I play up for laughs -- but there's a part of me that wonders why the want (need?) to get married and have children is something to mock. When I bring the subject up, the one comment I hear the most is, "but you're too young to be settling down now! You have your whole life ahead of you! You have plenty of time to find a man." I also get the "fabulous" comment as well -- "but you're life is so amazing. You're healthy, hot, smart, have a great career; you don't need a man!" And I can't tell you how many times I've been called a "breeder."

Throughout my life, I feel like I have gotten mixed messages about how I'm supposed to function as a woman. Perhaps some of you can relate: my dad has always expected me to be an excellent student and have a great career. He wants me to get a PhD, make tons of money, and be financially independent. YET, he also expect me to cook, clean, sew, and be a wonderfully subservient wife. Honestly, it's hard enough to meet compatible men as it is, and even harder when I'm pouring so much time into my job.

The family values crap being marketed around the US is a simple-minded, black-and-white reduction of human worth to conformity to a specific social model.

Dharma queen, I'm a thirty-something divorced woman who is perfectly comfortable with her place in life. What struck me about janeofalltrades comment was the tone of wistfulness and the expressed feeling, or need, to be part of something larger. That can include being a doctor (as I am), being a poet, or being part of a relationship. Maybe all three? I didn't interpret the remark as a slap or a rebuke to single women like, er, me, who is strong in her beliefs and in her person. I know who I am, even when I'm confused about who I am. I'm the sum of certain experiences, ideas, feelings. I have all kinds of thoughts and dreams. Oh, what am I trying to say? Just this: my parents, my beautiful, maddening, not-always-getting-me-desi parents have been married for almost forty years and love each other very much. The other day my mother said, "you know, your Dad and I don't need anyone else but each other. We're happy together." It was amazing. It was really amazing. It's a wonderful thing, isn't it, to devote yourself to another human being? And by devote, I simply mean take another person's happiness into consideration. A child, a partner, a spouse, can challenge and engage us in a way that is different from almost anyother challenge in life. Expressing a wish to experience this challenge is not family values as exclusion, but inclusion. That's what I got out it, anyway. Be happy with your single selves, but don't be afraid of wanting something else, either.

Milli,

There's nothing wrong with wanting to get married and have babies - but are you ready to move ahead with life if, for whatever reason, it doesn't happen?

If not, and you're going to spend your life crying into pillows and envying other women, then there IS something wrong with wanting it the way you are wanting it.

I think it stops women from having fun - asking guys out, going to bars alone, having flings, having sex-only arrangements.

:-) I think you'll be surprised to know that women do DO all these things but wanting something substantial doesn't mean they are sitting at home crying for love. They are out and about living life.

I have quite a few female friends in their 50s. Only one of them is in a happy marriage. The others are all married, but one is in a sexless marriage and has no clue why her hubby isn't interested anymore, another is with a man who can't hold down a job and spends her money, another is with a workaholic, another is with an alcoholic. Very few of them get fawned over for V-Day. The whole 'fawning' thing is fleeting, and doesn't reflect the reality of the vast majority of relationships. If you look for that in love, you are going to be disappointed, if not at first, then sometime down the road.

What the above says to me DQ is because other people are living in mediocrity and aren't really happy anyway I can safely assume I will be in the same exact position possibly 20 years down the road and shouldn't even bother taking that road in the first place. Don't you think there is something wrong about shaping one's life and choices based on the negative direction other people's lives have gone in? What about all the positive relationships around us? Why can't we take a cue from those?

And if you think wanting to be in a relationship is so I could have 'fawning expressions of love' I believe you've misread the whole context of my position. I've seen some very happy marriages around me and would like to have what they have. Perhaps not in a "marriage" concept but something about being with one man that you build a relationship with is pretty damn enticing to me. Considering I've experienced it in the past I'd certainly like to again.

It is more self-absorbed to brood on one's lack of a man and how unhappy and unlucky one is in relation to other women, than to get out there, forget about it and have fun. There's a lot of ways of being self-absorbed. An unmarried, childless female who devotes her life to poetry or to medicine or human rights , for example, is to my mind a lot worthier person than some chick who cries every night cause she's not married yet.

DQ you are assuming that wanting a man equates to not being happy, not indulging in poetry or art or medicine or human rights or life in general or worse that it means crying yourself to sleep every night because you are unmarried.

The family values crap being marketed around the US is a simple-minded, black-and-white reduction of human worth to conformity to a specific social model.

I hate to tell you this but family values and the concept of a village is universal. I don't think America invented it as you put it. I don't find anything restrictive about it. I dislike the assuming people can only do one or the other and not both. Why can't we have families and live happy fulfilled lives as well? Why the assumption that if we pick family values we are doomed for eternal unhappiness?

I see gay couples who have wonderful and happy families, who choose to adopt from all over the world. Your argument would imply that because they are gay and society isn't going to accept them anyway they may as well accept the status of an outsider and not fight for what they want. Recognition.

Wanting to be part of a twosome has little to do with society or marriage or culture or childre or a village or a picket fence or any other so called black/white boundries. It's about a more basic animal instinct. Why can we not recognize that?

In need of a new social scene? How about the company of Mr. PropaMcGandhi?

No lowest bid folks, start where you will...

MD:

I'm in complete agreement with your last line. However - you don't strike me as someone who is going to collapse if you don't get married, don't have babies. I find the 'family values' campaign (especially in its nastier anti-gay, anti-abortion aspects), however, to be particulary noxious and reductionist, and perhaps I reacted strongly to that catchphrase. Futhermore, the whole image of the woman in her thirties who only thinks about getting married, and feebly looks on other women's relationships with longing, seems to me to be extraordinarily cliched, for one thing, and extraordinarily destructive.

Dhaavak - I wasn't mocking marriage. One of my 50-something friends is in a good marriage and it is beautiful to see. But most of the women are in horribly unsatisfying relationships. Marriage is not a cure-all, and may not be for everyone.

Madurai,

Are you legally entitled to put up PMG for auction? I wouldn't want to be bidding for stolen goods...

There's definitely a conservative backlash through the West and some of the comments on this thread reflect that. However - I am not mocking marriage and I'm not anti-marriage. I am against the feebleness of mind and character that whines and mopes over singledom and glorifies marriage. The majority of marriages suck. Some shine. No doubt about it.

you are mocking the social contract that's the bedrock to our society.

Dhaavak - I wasn't mocking marriage. One of my 50-something friends is in a good marriage and it is beautiful to see. But most of the women are in horribly unsatisfying relationships. Marriage is not a cure-all, and may not be for everyone.

Sisters! Let's not, in our leftist and feminist leanings, cannibalize ourselves over this. There's nothing wrong with being open to and desiring partners and I think DQ's underlying point is a good one: it really doesn't serve our own interests to give the "am I in/am I not in a relationship" dichotomy this much primacy. And I don't think there's anything that's undermining the possibility of happily being in one or the possibility of some relationships being very loving and worthwhile, to talk about the fact that

The family values crap being marketed around the US is a simple-minded, black-and-white reduction of human worth to conformity to a specific social model.

It sounds harsh, and of course it's possibly and probably not true for a lot of us on here, but come on - family values is almost an industry unto itself in the US. Have a happy family! Buy a bigger house and don't forget the video games for Billy and the Barbies for Chrissy, oh heterosexual dual-income smiling couple! And if you're not there yet, buy more beauty products or a fancier car and keep on truckin' because some day, this could be you!

Again, I'm not saying we're buying into this - but that's a message that's propogated... everywhere.
I don't think the issues of being with someone/not being with someone is something that any of us can really come up with any kind of helpful answer for here - entire magazine empires base their sales and profits on this perennial question - it's certainly not just a desi issue.

There's definitely a conservative backlash through the West and some of the comments on this thread reflect that. However - I am not mocking marriage and I'm not anti-marriage. I am against the feebleness of mind and character that whines and mopes over singledom and glorifies marriage.

Dhaavak, do you really not find the Bridget Jones type 'whiny', 'mopey' and 'feeble'? Do you really not find the chicklit that revolves around this type of female utterly vacuous? I do.

I'm not calling any individual on this thread stupid. But if I had a good friend who spent their time weeping about being single, and wanting what other women have, I'd tell her what I've said here. And I'd expect the same from her. And incidentally, I'm a thirty-something female just out of six year relationship, who would like something substantial in the future too. In the meantime, I'm having a good time.

Dhaavak, do you really not find the Bridget Jones type 'whiny', 'mopey' and 'feeble'? Do you really not find the chicklit that revolves around this type of female utterly vacuous? I do.

I don't read chicklit have never read a single one. There are mopey women out there who want a man because they feel incomplete. We aren't talking about those women. You chose to dismiss the existence of todays independent, smart, successful and woman about town "wanting to be with a man' by your ire towards chicklit?

Jane - you're tilting at windmills right now. Where in any of my comments have I dismissed the 'independent woman who wants a man'? In my initial response to you I said it was fine to state that you'd like a man, and you shouldn't be trashed for doing so. But when it comes to envying other women just because they're in a relationship, and yes, wasting one's time moping and whining - yeah, I have total contempt for that.

Dhaavak, do you really not find the Bridget Jones type 'whiny', 'mopey' and 'feeble'? Do you really not find the chicklit that revolves around this type of female utterly vacuous?

In the meantime, I'm having a good time.

Hello:

Although it's a bit late, I thought I'd share my point of a view: the individual experience of a guy who happens to be brown non-Desi (read Hispanic) dating a girl who happens to be an ABD. I use the 'happens to be' because although our respective races and cultural backgrounds don't define us, it is still a large part of who we are.

In many ways, our experiences are very similar. Our parents immigrated to the United States to pursue advanced degrees and settled into careers here. We each speak our parents' languages, celebrate our cultural holidays, eat our traditional foods, etc. The really interesting thing is that although our respective cultures are very different on the surface, the values we hold are very similiar, perhaps more similar to each other than to contemporary American culture.

More specific to the topic here, I guess I find that the cultural issues aren't that bad. There is some pressure from my family to marry Catholic and the like. Her parents have asked me about my interest in Indian culture, food, etc.; her mother gave me a copy of the Gita.

In the end, our relationship is based on mutually held values, respect for each other, good communication, etc. There's a very good chance that we will marry, and if so, we'll have a multicultrual household. Our children will probably learn Hindi, English, and Spanish. We'll probably celebrate holidays like Christmas with my family, and celebrate holidays like Diwali with hers. The religion issue may not be such a big issue since I had already been in a process of exploring and converting to Hinduism.

In the end, I guess the only things I can say are that one's family, culture, and values are important. I can understand why people prefer to be endogamic; it can eliminate a lot of confusion and make it easier to be accepted by family. However, what is ultimately most important is finding someone who will accept, respect, and love you for who you are. Part of this means helping each other grow as people over time, and an intercultural relationship is bound to provide plenty of room for growth. When it comes to marriage, which is ideally a life-long commitment, you do need to have common values and life goals.

In conclusion, I think there are arguments both ways, and there isn't a simple rule that can apply for everyone. In my case, I think the intercultural thing will work fine, but there's no guarantee, yet. Still, each of us is only looking for one person, right?

Cheers,

M. D

Ladies, ladies...

All this commentary about what kind of men desi women want, how to find them etc have been repeated ad-infinitum on this forum and many others. And I'll say what I said on those other forums...

All men are born dorks. I mean seriously, we are completely clueless idiots. I have no idea why Mother Nature was so cruel to us, but rest assured, a seven-year old girl has enough maturity and poise that a man should feel lucky if he has attained that at the age of seventy.

So every man you see out there, jocks-geeks-fat-tall-handsome-doctors-musicians, in bars, in weddings, in college, in parties... is a dork. He is a mindless piece of clay that needs to be molded into what you want him to be. So it behooves on you to pick one, wrap him around your little finger, and make him do what you want to be done. You need to whip some sense into him. You need to slap him around until he sees things your way.

It's hard work. It takes years of marriage to make that happen. Kids definitely help - hence smart women get pregnant within a month of marriage. (Trust me - two years of changing diapers can do more to domesticate a man than ten years of a childless marriage.) You need to watch what he says, when and where. You need to train him so well that if someone in a party says: "Nice weather - sunny and 80 degrees", he will look at you to make sure that you agree, before opening his stupid mouth. You need to make sure that the bumbling idiot puts all of his interests behind yours. You need to train him so that he doesn't burp, fart, stink or have premature orgasms.

Hell yeah - it's hard work. Years, sometime decades of hard work. Work that your mothers have painstakingly done. But there's an easy way out...

Get a married man. No cooking required. Ready to eat, just pop it in the microwave. Preferably someone close, like your elder sister's husband. He's trained, well known, has been whipped around for years and knows how to conduct himself. Sure...your sister will be devastated and your family may not talk to you anymore. But hey - you're a woman. Your first duty is towards your womanhood.

Or maybe your best friend's boyfriend or husband. Or maybe that guy at work who brings his kids to work every Christmas.

Why work hard when there's low-hanging fruit?

But getting back to my original point. All men are dorks - so it makes little difference which dork you pick. It all depends on you in the end.

M. Nam

@md,

The other day my mother said, "you know, your Dad and I don't need anyone else but each other. We're happy together." It was amazing. It was really amazing. It's a wonderful thing, isn't it, to devote yourself to another human being?

eventually i think this is just it.

as far as i am concerned, my single self was in an accident a little while back (and unhurt completely). the only thing that bugged me immediately after was that i didn't feel the need to call anyone. that was when i realized exactly what i wanted from all this relationship/marriage/whatever-else-you-want-it-to-be: just a woman "to be with".

i know i am not saying this right. it is difficult to put it into words, but i mean it something like the way md says it.

All men are dorks - so it makes little difference which dork you pick. It all depends on you in the end.

this is funny---reminds me of a seinfeld episode. he claims all men dress identically in tuxedos at weddings because from a female perspective, men are fundamentally same and unreliable. if one chickens out, everyone takes a step to their side, and the wedding continues :).

but of course, men don't dress identically at desi weddings. read what you will into that :).

Oh gawd MoorNam,
Is this your attempt at humour? For the love of Christ.

Okay this thread is getting out of hand. The love is gone.

Byteword's post no. 373 is a good example of expressing a desire without being mopey/whiny. However, if he'd pointed out that all the other guys he knows have someone to call if they get into trouble, and that they all would have someone making them chicken soup when they got home, and that he also would like to know what it is like to have someone make him chicken soup, he would be mopey/whiny. See the difference?

Dhaavak - abbey on the island sounds great.

Let's say i have girly-girl cousins - and i may not agree with their pov, but they're my cousins, i'll stand by them and definitely not call them stupid to their face as your are doing. would you, especially if they're leaving you alone?

For JOAT, keep the hope alive

Red: [narrating] I have no idea to this day what those two Italian ladies were singing about. Truth is, I don't want to know. Some things are best left unsaid. I'd like to think they were singing about something so beautiful, it can't be expressed in words, and makes your heart ache because of it. I tell you, those voices soared higher and farther than anybody in a gray place dares to dream. It was like some beautiful bird flapped into our drab little cage and made those walls dissolve away, and for the briefest of moments, every last man in Shawshank felt free.

From Matt Stone, creator of South Park

I hate conservatives, but I really fucking hate liberals."

Party on, MoorNam. MoorNam, we still disagree on other issues.

love is gone.

wowy, wowy, wowy! This posting is hot - record?

dude! that was eerie.

Byteword's post no. 373 is a good example of expressing a desire without being mopey/whiny. However, if he'd pointed out that all the other guys he knows have someone to call if they get into trouble, and that they all would have someone making them chicken soup when they got home, and that he also would like to know what it is like to have someone make him chicken soup, he would be mopey/whiny. See the difference?

***rolling eyes*** sorry can't help myself. You keep bringing mopey/whiney women crying themselves to sleep, while all along it was about women wanting a man for love/sex not to validate her existence.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to get married and have babies - but are you ready to move ahead with life if, for whatever reason, it doesn't happen?

How fatalistic. At what point do you recommend people give up on wanting companionship?

Jane - Nice attempt at backpedalling. Wanting flowers on V-Day just like all the women around you SCREAMS of wanting a man to validate your existence. You must have had flowers on V-Day before. It can mean a lot, it can mean nothing. The flowers can be an apology, a coverup, an empty gesture, a sign of passion, affection and/or love. You must have been fawned on before. In and of itself it means nothing. Suppose you're fawned on by a guy who cheats on you, or lies, or doesn't live up to his promises?

Your 'fatalism' point, like most of your points, fails to hit its target. Where is the fatalism in the statement you quoted? There's no assumption that what you want (ie getting married, having babies) won't happen, but only the suggestion that you'd better be prepared in case it doesn't happen.

Jane - Nice attempt at backpedalling. Wanting flowers on V-Day just like all the women around you SCREAMS of wanting a man to validate your existence.

I'm trying to understand why you are so angry and hostile. You still think this is about the superficial shit. After this 385th comment to this post I've said all that I needed to and you actually managed to prove my original point. Todays hardcore feminazis have created a "No Man's land" in a woman's world because she's deemed a whiney/mopey pathetic loser if she desires one!

Dhaavak - abbey on the island sounds great.

love is gone.

Oh I think Dr Tandon can stand in.

Stand in as what?

oops - it's not the abbey, but the rectory.

Mesdames - may i eenterest you in ze dessert menu.

Dhaavak - I definitely paddle. Sounds amazing.

387 for me.
NEXT!

Doh!! slow post.I got 389...

Stand in as what?

Jane,

I don't know why I thought it might be beneath you, but apparently it isn't - you've fallen back on the tried and true method of discounting someone with supposedly 'feminist' views as 'angry', 'hostile' and a 'feminazi'. Examine this thread and it will become clear who is hostile. You've 'rolled your eyes at me', called me angry, hostile, a feminazi, fatalistic, and ireful. Apparently I touched an extremely raw nerve.

If it is any consolation to you, I'm not angry. In fact, I would like to start the bidding war for PMG before his feelings get hurt. Come on Jane, let's turn this into a real catfight.

Whoa, Jane...

and you actually managed to prove my original point. Todays hardcore feminazis have created a "No Man's land" in a woman's world because she's deemed a whiney/mopey pathetic loser if she desires one!

That's quite the slur to appropriate. Let's let the misogynists keep their facile generalisations. I don't think anyone here is proposing desire = whiney/mopey, pathetic or loser. However, one too many otherwise strong, financially independent, successful women - and men - crack in the face of this one issue - and that's disturbing, no? Is it so terrible to propose that we have the agency to not let this rule our lives unless there's something worthwhile to pursue/nurture?

I don't want or claim to be a mediator, but it seems like you, jane and dq, are reading more into each other's comments than I can see, unless I am missing something. I don't see dq as a feminazi and I don't see jane as a whiny bridget jones at all (not that you claimed she was).

It's almost as if jane knows/knew of a person (person x) similar to dq, and vice versa, and now are filling in the between lines with information from experience person x.

bwahahahahahahah.... ohhhh!
dhavaak
I wish I got that pun - even painfully explained to me, it's still hilarious.

It's almost as if jane knows/knew of a person (person x) similar to dq, and vice versa, and now are filling in the between lines with information from experience person x.

correction: .... with person x.

Metric,
Yeah, two people in an argument can become symbols or ideologies to each other, and cease to be fully rounded people. Good point.

Apparently I touched an extremely raw nerve.

No I guess it's a Saggi trait, I see negative information coming my way the eternal optimist in me can't relate. All the reasons why a woman SHOULDN'T be getting into a relationship are unnecessary and extremely dismissive when women speak of wanting love IMO. I've seen this more often then not.

I guess after you hear for the 865th time 'Oh you don't need a man' it can get really irritating because people who say that often disregard the basal need for a man and ALWAYS assume it's for superficial needs or for some personal validation or that the woman's life and she would fall apart if she didn't find one.

If it is any consolation to you, I'm not angry. In fact, I would like to start the bidding war for PMG before his feelings get hurt. Come on Jane, let's turn this into a real catfight.

I'll let you guys dual it out for PMG. :-) I have a crush and my eyes on another Mutineer who is oh so elusive and out of reach.

It's almost as if jane knows/knew of a person (person x) similar to dq, and vice versa, and now are filling in the between lines with information from experience person x.

Hmm not really. DQ is entitled to her opinions and I respect them. It is highly possible that in real life we possibly share the same viewpoint because we have in the past during many a discussion. We just picked the opposite side this time. And I think DQ was speaking of woman A and I was speaking of woman B. They are two different women. It's pointless to speak about one and refer to the other.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to get married and have babies - but are you ready to move ahead with life if, for whatever reason, it doesn't happen?

If not, and you're going to spend your life crying into pillows and envying other women, then there IS something wrong with wanting it the way you are wanting it.

I know perfectly well that there's nothing wrong with wanting to get married and have babies. What I do resent is that I am criticized for wanting to do so, whereas my peers who have opted for alternatives are celebrated for being independent and non-conformist. (Not saying DQ criticized me for this but my friends have, as stated in my earlier post)

I think that you're presenting limiting options here, DQ. 1) Want marriage and babies and be successful at obtaining both OR 2) Remain single and eternally unhappy/envious of others' relationships. Just because I want to get married doesn't mean that I'll spend the time that I'm single feeling unhappy about it! There are much better ways to spend my time. There are a lot of things I want from life, and I'm not crying myself to sleep because I don't have them. I either do what I can to make them happen, or roll with the punches when I realize that something is no longer possible.

I'm sort of resentful of this idea that we (men and women) should be these strong, independent people, never needing the company or help of others. If I don't get married, I imagine that I might try to develop a healthy social circle of friends. What's the difference between wanting friends and wanting a life companion? If I'm not codependent on friends, why would I be codependent on my huband?

Ugh, just rambling now. Too much caffeine + no food = cloudy head Milli

Byteword's post no. 373 is a

***rolling eyes*** sorry can't help myself.

i think i feel "used" here :D

@379, 386, 391
ah, that is what is happening...

Hey admins,
split up this page into 2 or sumthing... its starting to take too long to load!!

Sorry byte...

as far as i am concerned, my single self was in an accident a little while back (and unhurt completely). the only thing that bugged me immediately after was that i didn't feel the need to call anyone. that was when i realized exactly what i wanted from all this relationship/marriage/whatever-else-you-want-it-to-be: just a woman "to be with".

I didn't mean to dismiss this. :-( You echoed my sentiment. You said it in 4 sentences and I said it in about 40 posts! I rolled my eyes because of that.

I would just like to say that I think DQ is absolutely correct. And no, I'm not just saying that because I'm now contractually bound.

I would just like to say that I think DQ is absolutely correct. And no, I'm not just saying that because I'm now contractually bound

About ... ? There were a lot of posts up there! ;)

Come on Jane, let's turn this into a real catfight.

Whoa, girls. girls. girrrrrrrrrrrls. Chillax yaar. Can we wait for this till we get together on dhaavak's island?

C'mon peeps, we can get this thread to 400!

Not everyone's a 'feminazi' or 'bridget jones'. What about the shades of brown in between?

wow, we already crossed 400 by the time I wrote that comment. Yay, is this a record?????

oh, no worries jane.

C'mon peeps, we can get this thread to 400!

no we can't. we are already past 400. BUT, i am thrilled i got the 400'th post. ha!

PMG,
Does this mean I won you for nothing? And why hasn't Madurai answered my question about whether he's legally entitled to put you up for auction? Hmm. This all seems very fishy...

I vish ve had a "forums" tab.

No refunds for buyer's remorse!!!

I apologize, I'm going to backtrack b/c I wasn't here for the 60 comments prior :)

I understand all of this believe me I've had these thoughts too. I just wish sometimes they'd give themselves a break from these stresses and just go hang with their friends and not worry about meeting the future husband.

I think I opened up a can of worms. When I was talking about the "marriage myth," I wasn't denigrating women and their needs to be in loving relationships. Jane, I think you have a valid point, as does DQ. I think calling someone a hardcore feminazi is just as degrading and narrow as someone telling a woman who wants companionship (in our heteronormative conversation, a man) that her desires are invalid. That said, I do think we have to critically examine the social framework in which we operate. Despite progressions in ideas around gender equality, I stand by my point that there is a lot of pressure for women in particular to get married, and by extension, have children (more the former, though, in my opinion). I think women should have the same freedom, and also should not have to face a stigma, to choose the terms of their relationships, their companions, or their decision not to have a companion. The driving point is feeling like you have that choice, either implicitly or explicitly.

All men are dorks - so it makes little difference which dork you pick. It all depends on you in the end.

Sorry sorry - this being an online auction, our bidders and auctioneer are in different time zones. I just woke up. Yes, I am legally entitled to auction off PMG. So let's hear the bids... what are people willing to give for a tender, loving, progressive desi man?

Oh well, Madurai Vivekan if it's all above ground, I'll totally bid. We are prepared to offer the boy's family two goats (one black, one brown) and one electric, three speed table fan. We are open to negotiations if he knows how to dance, sing Rabindrasangeet or can tell me where Yo La Tengo got its name.

Speaking of goats, my mom told me once that she "got rid of my dowry" after she convinced herself that I was going to marry a non-Indian. I have yet to figure out if she was joking (about the existence of dowry and/or spending it!)

Solely in an effort to drive up the bids I link to the anti-dowry pledge.

I just read through the last 50 posts or so and I'm having a hard time understanding DQ's argument. The gist of it, as I got it, was that if I express desire for a husband and a family, it's ok as long as I'm not whiny or mopey. And I damn well better be making a tangible contribution to society rather than be useless and crying all the time?

And I just don't get this statement:

An unmarried, childless female who devotes her life to poetry or to medicine or human rights , for example, is to my mind a lot worthier person than some chick who cries every night cause she's not married yet.

WHAT?! Who are you talking about? I know PLENTY of 30-something, very pro-women, feminist doctors who date and are actively seeking a life partner. Maybe they get upset sometimes. Is that ok with you?

Who are you? Who is this "chick" you're talking about? Isn't it possible to lead an active fulfilling life AND seek intimate companionship?

What does a desire to get married have to do with worth? I'm working hard to have a successful academic medicine career and I want to have a family too. My biggest concern (even though I would estimate I'm at least 10-15 years away from having kids) is how I'm going to balance my career with my kids. EVERY SINGLE WOMAN (and probably man) in my class has had these exact same concerns, even though many of us aren't married and aren't anywhere near kids. We have ENTIRE FORUMS at school dedicated to this.

Future-planning is hard enough (in ANY career) without having to listen to this bullshit judgment about how women can't express their desire to get married. Is it so wrong to want intimate companionship and a family?

This is NOT feminism. Feminism is about CHOICE, and if I choose to get married and have kids, then I am grateful that the women in the generations before me struggled long and hard so I could have my paid maternity leave and finish my residency on time without judgement from the administration. If another woman CHOOSES to stay at home and raise her children that is her choice as well and I respect that. I also respect a man who chooses to stay home and raise his children. Don't make me feel reactionary and anti-feminist about my wants because YOU are the unfeminist one.

Whoa! Wait a second! I thought I'd won PMG already. Even if the auctioneer was dozing, PMG auctioned himself off, or appeared to do so, in a manner which I'm sure is legally binding.

In any case, while the lawyers out there are cogitating, here is my bid: Three goats, two black and one brown, one female piglet, my old skates, a used laptop, and a year's supply of betel nut.

So I'm half-watching a serial with my grandmother, and I hear the most amazing monologue: there's a woman sitting on her bed, thinking about what this guy has said to her. It goes something like this: "You eat vegetables and I eat fish. But that's not a problem. I'll give up anything for you. Why won't you love me?"

Ok, this is an auction. There can only be one auctioneer, and that person can't be the same person who's up for bidding. That clearly represents a conflict of interest. Bids are still open for PMG. The old laptop and betel nut do sound good - brownfrown?

Before either Brownfrown or I spiral into debt, could I request a promotional pitch from the auctioneer? You know, it goes something like this, 'Sterling silver, crafted in the famous House of Berlioz, which catered to the nobility of southern france, with an intricate pattern of vine leaves and...'

Pffft. Clearly, goods can't just auction off themselves. They'll be demanding rights and the vote next. Is that what you want? A progressive desi man who has the vote?! I think not, Dharma Queen, I think NOT.

Okay okay I'll admit I have no old laptops. In fact I'm currently in the process of negotiations (i.e. whining plaintively) with my dad to give me his.

I'll throw a buffalo into the mix though (it's still good to give milk even), some old stencil art this friend of mine did (very nice - pirate wenches, ships - anything nautical you might fancy), an inkjet printer and some edited volumes on post-colonialism (with the bits on slavery, dowry and forced marriage blacked out).

YEAH. Good point, Dharma Queen. I want to know more about this PropaMcGandhi's assets and history. I've read Jeffery Archer and watched the Antiques Road Show. I know how this works.

Rupa,

As an obviously secure and well-balanced individual, it baffles me why you would react in this incendiary way to my 'bullshit judgment'. If it's bullshit, pass on.

You make no actual arguments in your screed. You bring up life-work balance, which was not being discussed. I suppose you were trying to point out that a lot of people want kids, which was never disputed. You ask the tired question again: why isn't it possible to have a fulfilling life and have intimate companionship? Please review my comments. I never argued it was not possible. You ask me if it is okay with me if single female doctors 'get upset' at their singledom. Of course it is okay with me. They can jump into a lake for all I care. I just think that, depending on the degree and frequency of distress over this issue, they might not be worth knowing.

Hi DQ,

You’re right, my post was abrasive and I apologize for that.

I just feel like women are always caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to relationships these days, and my point was that it’s hard enough being an independent woman trying to balance your career with your personal life without judgment from other so-called feminists who criticize your desires.

I just think that, depending on the degree and frequency of distress over this issue, they might not be worth knowing.

I guess I just don’t really understand this. Yeah, whiny people are lame and no fun, no argument there, but many single women are actively seeking a partner and I don’t believe that even a small fraction of them are uselessly obsessed with it to the point of becoming pathetic. There are lonely desperate people of all genders and I find it slightly insulting to insinuate that women are more “mopey” and “feeble" and all it does it is harbor hostility between women. (See above posts as an example.)

And this is unrelated, but SATC and Bridget Jones, as vapid as some of the characters and storylines are, in my opinion has been v. empowering to young women...even if their lifestyles were outrageous and sometimes out of control, it was just nice to see some strong female protagonists (Shaz, Miranda) who didn’t live and breathe by one of society’s patterns for women, presented as the norm and not the exception.

Hullo! What's so unfeminist about ME, eh gals?? its not like i quit my job and sit around crying for a man... of course i feel lonely and incomplete without a partner, so what - i will not deny my feelings just to please YOU. go find sum other pinata!!

Brownfrown, I cannot compete with a buffalo. Aren't buffaloes endangered? Just where did you get yours? The best I can offer is an adoring, doe-eyed, silken-haired bellydancer. At least she's not endangered.

This is, however, a tentative bid. I'm still waiting for the promotional pitch.

P.S I'll throw in some old literary journals with the bellydancer.

You’re right, my post was abrasive

don't you all go abt bidding for pmg and all. i have one very very good son. he can run much faster than pmg. why don't you spend money on him instead?

PMG's Evil Relative:

Please explain what you mean by 'run'. Is this a naughty euphemism? And please describe other characteristics of your son. I'm getting suspicious about the length of time it is taking to describe PMG's charms.

RUN?! We don't want someone who can RUN. In fact, we plan, as militant misandry-loving feminists, to hobble him permanently if possible and then train him to do tricks.

And Dharma Queen, I was *thinking* (as all good Bengalis know) of the water buffalo. They're all all over the place. Mine's a family pet that my grandfather gave me when I was of marriagable age to garland and then give to my beloved. It's getting a bit long in the tooth now and I guess it's going to the auction house instead.

Where'd you get this bellydancer?

I'm getting suspicious about the length of time it is taking to describe PMG's charms.

It could be that there are just so many that it's taking a long time to type! Maybe?

Be honest. Wouldn't I be doing you all a huge favor by closing the comments on this thread? :)

For some reason it reminds me a little of that one "Friends" episode:
"You hang up. No, you hang up. No, you hang up."

Be honest. Wouldn't I be doing you all a huge favor by closing the comments on this thread? :)

No - you can't do that - not until we get to hear your input on this posting!

dating while desi...is more complicated than Sudoku puzzles

Sahej said it all in comment #3 ;)

run? my son runs forever like the duracell bunny.

what naughty euphemism? tsk tsk this generation. when i was younger we never asked all these questions. in my old age i see all you tykes like this. what tragedy.

If this thread is closed, we better get a forums tab! :)

No - you can't do that - not until we get to hear your input on this posting!

I was actually going to write a post about desi dating from the male perspective and I was even thinking about the title "Sepia Destiny." I'm not even kidding. It was going to be a manly post full of manly insight drawing parallels to one of my favorite books. It would have been more in the style/tone of writing I use on my personal blog than on SM. Taz came up with the similar idea you see here and beat me to it. It is still in my head but now I will wait several months until I am slightly more jaded and perhaps while I am on a bender. I work best when I'm feeling like Pollack :)

I had posted a link to an article positioning a societal backlash to the self-diminishing path taken by "civilized", secular societies. To me, the latent angst expressed in popular media (including this blog) reflects the subtle correction in society. The excerpt below is from a news and views program airing daily on cbc.ca. It may be of interest.

Earlier, we were talking about how to make the decision to stay home and raise children less financially fraught for women and families. But for the next half hour, we looked at who--in fact---is having children at all. Feminism is often given credit for forcing family issues to the political forefront, including decriminalizing abortion, making birth control widely available and encouraging women into the workforce...all of which deliver a sucker punch to patriarchy...
Those advances have also been blamed for the falling birth rate, at least among Western liberals who embrace progressive ideas about family. But according to my next guest, fewer children could signal liberalism's ultimate demise because, he says, it's the conservatives who will eventually inherit the earth...
Well, adjusting demographics and birth rates doesn't just affect social values and family life. As we just heard, there is also an economic impact -- caused by who's in and who's out of the workforce.

PMG,

So - do you also, ahem, 'run like the duracell bunny'? Just trying to weigh my options.

Brownfrown, the bellydancer is someone I know who is looking for a change of scenery. She's also old and is missing a couple of teeth, but she still beats a water buffalo anytime.

I had posted a link to an article positioning a societal backlash to the self-diminishing path taken by "civilized", secular societies. To me, the latent angst expressed in popular media (including this blog) reflects the subtle correction in society. The excerpt below is from a news and views program airing daily on cbc.ca. It may be of interest.

Dhaavak yesterday WNYC (NPR) had Sree Sreenivasan sitting in for Brian Lehrer and he had Caitlin Flanagan the author of To Hell and All That: Loving and Loathing Our Inner Housewife that talks about this very same issue of women and their struggles with balancing family/career and making choices and the politics that is fueled by it and how feminism and the struggle is affected by it.

Incidentally today non other then the Illhindu stood in for Lehrer.

I was actually going to write a post about desi dating from the male perspective and I was even thinking about the title "Sepia Destiny." I'm not even kidding. It was going to be a manly post full of manly insight drawing parallels to one of my favorite books.

Woo hoo! - that means you'll have to do some "research" ;-) Any willing subject???

I didn't want to post on this thread when it was happening originally, but there are some things that can be said.

I don't think dating someone indian versus not indian is a binary choice, one over the other. People are taken as individuals, and the package someone comes in is the package they come in.

As an Indian guy, as we were growing up, most of us were not appreciated for our brown-ness per se. It was the rare Indian guy who was popular in high school to the extent where dating was a ho-hum thing, Also, many Indian girls did often specifically avoid Indian boys. Particularly if they were out-going and popular. It often seemed easier for mainstream dudes to date. Our society has changed a lot since even the early 90's in this regard. This is not to say anything other than, this was the experience for a lot of Indian guys, and this colors our experiences.

Also, Indian boys were not encouraged to date. And since the desi household was very comfortable for Indian boys, it was easier to listen to our parents and stay put for the time being.

But at some point you put that away and start living life. And then you're left with a few dilemnas. For one thing, men mature less fast than women, and some of the mature life decisions with regard to dating include; what does this relationship mean in terms of how I see myself as an adult. That can take awhile for dudes to figure out.

Given all that, once you get to a point where you have things figured out, in some semblence of a way, its almost the hardest part. Now you have to find what you finally figured out you want. Thats when the lack of the binary also comes into play. Dating for an indian man is not simple, even though it also is simple. To me thats the one thing I would like to generally get across, that we are making choices based on the inter-action our ethnicity has on our life experience, as well as simply making choices based on our life experience regardless of ethnicity.

q.e.d (i'm being deprecating, this is far from a proof of anything)