Taz—thanks for the great post. Was hoping someone would write about this. I’ll keep my eyes peeled for a photo. :)

Meanwhile, in celebration of Baisakhi—and Sikhism in general—wanted to share my deep-seated respect and awe of Sikhism, not only as a religion, but as a way of life. I am not Sikh, but have a grandfather who has long revered the religion and who has consistently made it a point to underscore the ways in which Sikhism revers womankind, something I find fascinating.

If I’m not mistaken (and if I am, please correct/educate me), I think it was Guru Nanak Dev who first defied traditional religious protocol and stereotype by admitting women into the “sangat” (congregation), after which Guru Angad Dev advocated for education, regardless of gender. Later, Guru Hargobind declared that woman is man’s conscience and Guru Gobind Singh proclaimed that a Sikh woman is in her own right an individual, one who was free to assume the 5 Ks for herself, and to assume the name “Kaur” (princess) until her death.

To all you Sikh warrior women out there—many of whom are my sisters in the social justice movement leading the charge in almost every arena & fora imaginable—mad props to you for your work, your commitment, and your voice. For Baisakhi, I celebrate you.

Just a quick (pedantic) comment. There's no such thing as a 'Bangladeshi' New Year per se. We celebrate the Bengali New Year, Pohela Baishakh. It is equally celebrated across the border by Indian Bengalis in West Bengal, and by both nationals, often together, across the globe in expatriate communities. Although it's stated in the article you linked to, I wanted to point it out here since I was interested to see the common word 'baishaki'. And, well, lending any kind of creedence to Partition, indirect/unintentional or otherwise, bothers me. - M.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_New_Year]

It's New Year for the Tamizh and Malayali people as well.

Happy baisakhi to one and all
forget saying happy holidays...be specific!

Happy Puthaandu/Baisaki/Avurudu, all! Have a wonderful year ahead. (it's hard because while I'd like to be specific, Jeet, as Taz points out, there are a bunch of holidays to celebrate.)

While I'm thrilled at the sentiment, to add to the pedantry, there is also no such thing as Sri Lankan New Year. It's Tamil New Year (for Tamils in India and SL) and Sinhala New Year.

Puthaandu Vazhthukkal!

Rangoli Bihu in Assam, and in Orissa too. It's the Solar Calendar you see. Yugadi, Gudipadva, for Telugu, Kannada, Konkani and Marathi speaking people, happened two weeks ago. At home I was brought up celbrating both Yugadi and Varsha Pirappu or Puthandu.

Happy Songkran (Thailand)
Happy Thingyan (Myanmar)
Happy Bon Chol Chhnam (Cambodia)
Happy BoumPimai (Laos)

Buddhist countries following Indian calendars - a testament to the once pervasive Indian influence in SE Asia.

SP

Thanks for your nice words about Sikhism. It is true that in principle Sikhism is a progressive religion with regards to equality for all people and for women and sometimes this is a living hardwired reality of Sikh life - especially in the institution of the langar and the spirit of hard work and self sufficiency it inculcates amongst Sikhs - but sadly the reality as well is that some aspetcs of Punjabi culture that are chauvinistic do persist amongst Sikhs meaning that sometimes Sikhs fail to live up to the noble principles of Sikhism. Like all things, it should make us strive to uphold those values!

Love and Blessings

Sandy

Following up on shiva (comment 3) - Happy Vishu, y'all!

Well I hope for you sake that the LA biasakhi was better then the one I want to in Surrey,B.C. There was a khalistan float which the police had to stop at 1st, due to the fact they had pictures of dead people on there float. Thankfully they took the pictures down before parade began.

Here in Vancouver they have 2 parades on the same day. The one in Vancouver is the moderate one and the one in Surrey is the right wing sikh parade.

A lot of the aforementioned festivals signalling the arrival of food (harvest) and good weather (spring) around Asia... can't get much better than that.

PearlJamFan - it never ceases to amaze me how all of your comments somehow put down Sikhs or Sikhism in some way or another. Just an observation.

PearlJamFan

I have to agree with Sonia here. It would be different if you ever cracked a joke, smiled, or talked about some other subject. But it's like sitting next to a morbid monomaniac, reading your posts. Everyone knows that there are problems amongst Punjabis in BC. Everyone knows that there are right wing religious nationalist elements too. But you never, ever, ever say anything but gripe and whine and moan. Whenever I see your name being written I can guess immediately without reading your post what the tone and content of it will be. How about changing the tune sometimes? Are you suffering from depression? (this is a serious question)

Well I'm sorry Sonia for feeling the way that I do. There are some thing that are about punjabi and sikhism culture I don't like and will never back down from speaking my mind on. After all it is my culture I have the right to speak about it.

Well I'm sorry Sonia for feeling the way that I do. There are some thing that are about punjabi and sikhism culture I don't like and will never back down from speaking my mind on. After all it is my culture I have the right to speak about it.

Thank you Dhavaak.

Pearl Jam Fan, you didnt answer my post, why was that?

Here in Vancouver area, dhavaak I have spoken to leaders of the punjabi comunnity about the problems and what can be done to fix them. Instead I have get nothing but in the one ear and out the other, when I was speaking to them. I have written to several of the punjabi newpapers and not get rejected. One of the editors of punjabi papers told me that what I wrote was all true, but his readers would not be happy reading what I wrote, so he couldn't print my article.

It was 13 months ago Amandeep Atwal father was found guilty of killing her for dating a white boy. Yet many people in the punjabi community spoke up for the sick man who killed her daughter but nobody spoke for Amandeep at the trial that was punjabi. I think that is when I started to become negative.

Pearl Jam Fan

So for that you have been reduced to a nervous monomaniacal wreck bleached in unrelenting negativity and cynicism? Dhavaak has asked you why you don't volunteer with grassroots organisations that deal with these problems day in and day out and put your energy to positive use. Start a blog or meet like minded people with whom you can address these issues. Instead you give off all the charm of a dead fish - nothing but unrelenting doom and gloom and negativity.

Well Sandy kaur the thing is that I'm a very happy go lucky person. If you really want to ask me about any other topic I would be then willing to talk.

PJF - I see. Thanks for explaining. It must be frustrating to have organizational inertia keep you from putting thoughts to action. My position would still be that you can change things by yourself and present a more favorable side of Punjabis and Sikhs to your community. It does not have to be grand, but just being out there front and center makes a big difference - is that not the principle of kar seva?

personal passions differ - I did a quick search through charityvillage, and my dream opportunity would be this one here.. it would let me spend weekends outside in the woods - take a buzz through - heck they might be looking for volunteers to drive seniors ot Pearl Jam concerts, you never know :-)

What about the religion PJF? Why is it that whenever Sikhism is the topic, horrible punjabi culture is your answer. Do you know anything about the religion or do you just ignore it because you don't like the punjabis in your area? Plenty of topics are presented on Sepia Mutiny - it's your comments that are always the same.

Well Sandy kaur the thing is that I'm a very happy go lucky person. If you really want to ask me about any other topic I would be then willing to talk.

You don't come across as a happy go lucky person at all. You come across as a scab picking depressed monomaciac who never smiles or jokes or even has anything postive to say about anything. Not even a passing jokey comment. Just a drip-drip-drip of the same (often irrelevant to the topic) negativity and cynicism. Not that it matters, but you seem to exist in a perpetual state of doom and gloom!

I hope this question is too personal but for Sonia, Sandy kaur and dhaavak, where are do you live rigth now

My position would still be that you can change things by yourself and present a more favorable side of Punjabis and Sikhs to your community. It does not have to be grand, but just being out there front and center makes a big difference - is that not the principle of kar seva?

Thank you Dhavaak for your wise words - it is indeed the principle of kar seva.

As I understand it Sikhs have been fighting the demons within from day one - Guru Nanak started the religion to battle against the evils of caste and female infanticide and oppression - sadly this is an ongoing battle amongst Sikhs just as it is for all Indians and all of these evils still exist amongst some of us. What Guru Nanak taught us was that you can make a change by standing up for certain principles and doing kar seva - rather than scowling and hating and doing nothing about them. The battle against the enemy within and without will never cease. Be a disciple of Guru Nanak and make a change rather than wallow in your negativity - which is simply a dissipation of negative energy to satisfy the ego, rather than doing something good.

Born and raised in California, now on the East Coast. How does that matter? I understand that there are areas in Canada where Punjabis tend to be more backwards. There are areas in California that are the same. But the group of people in these areas do not represent all Punjabis. Every community has its share of problems. If everyone thought like you, they would assume the entire world was full of horrible people.

What a way to live.

Well next year my sister well be at Harvard joing my neice and they are both are punjabi and sikh. Is that a postive?

I hope this question is too personal but for Sonia, Sandy kaur and dhaavak, where are do you live rigth now

Pearl Jam Fan

Born in Hounslow, west London, supporter and sometimes activist for Southall Black Sisters.

Pearl Jam Fan, we have a lot of negativity in England towards Pakistanis, especially amongst some of the youth due to certain practices and mentalities amongst some Mirpuri communities, especially since the London bombings. But I say the same to those totalising depressives as I say to you - do you actually have a perspective other than that the world is going to end and nothing can be done about it? And you keep saying that your inheritance is something you are aware of, but I have never come across you once saying anything but the most morbid, scowling, totalising remarks on this blog ever, and I have been lurking and enjoying and reading for the last six months.

Sonia did you grew up in Fresno area, that where most of my mow brother and sisters and there familes live. And I find that area to be alot more advanced then Vancouver area.

Well Sandy Kaur and Sonia, the funny thing is that. One of the things I that I speak about alot is Sexism in punjabi culture, and how upsets me alot that females don't have the same rights as males in our culture.

You 2 can't hate me for wanting you to have the same freedoms as punjabi males.

I actually grew up in the Bay Area. The community will naturally become more advanced each generation ... some areas are just slower than others. But you really need to stop being so down on the Punjabi community. Look past them towards your religion. Sandy and Dhaavak have written great comments that I'm sure all of us could learn from. It's very easy to dismiss things because of obstacles (in your case, the backwards uncles), but step up to the challenge and either do something about it or at least try to immerse yourself more in the religion than in the community.

sandy kaur broke it down:

What Guru Nanak taught us was that you can make a change by standing up for certain principles and doing kar seva - rather than scowling and hating and doing nothing about them. The battle against the enemy within and without will never cease. Be a disciple of Guru Nanak and make a change rather than wallow in your negativity - which is simply a dissipation of negative energy to satisfy the ego, rather than doing something good.

wise words for all of us. pjf, someone asked if you were depressed -- i wonder too, respectfully. if you are, there's a lot you can do about it. getting caught in a cycle of negative feelings happens all too easily.

big up to the southall black sisters, by the way! glad to know you're out there lurking!

You 2 can't hate me for wanting you to have the same freedoms as punjabi males.

No, but I can for you complaining about it so much =)

Instead of reiterating examples about sexism, why not lead your life in the way you want others to lead theirs? Treat your sisters and other women in your community with respect and encourage them to step up and be equals. I guarantee it will be a lot more satisfying than commenting about injustice.

I started a Sikh organization in the Bay Area post-9/11 and went through plenty of obstacles trying to get the support of the Gurdwaras. Let me just tell you that they weren't exactly jumping up and down waiting to hand over money to a 20 year old college student. Sure, I usually had to take a man with me to meetings to back me up, but I always got what I needed in order to do what I felt I had to do. And after I had proved myself to the committe, I had no further problems. In fact, I received nothing but praise from them. So what I keep saying is, jump over the obstacles and do something! If I can, I'm sure you can.

PearlJamFan:

May I weigh in, though I am not a Sikh?

Item 1
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When Hitler became powerful, German Jews were wondering what to do. The mathematician John von Neuemann suggested immigration to America. Friends asked him, "Don't you want to stay here and do something about it?" von Neumann replied, "You are responsible for yourself and your family, not for the whole community".

Item 2
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In "My Own Country: A Doctor's Story", Abraham Verghese describes a South Asian redneck, then goes on to say "I was not his keeper".

since you live in the bay area Sonia are you aware of this problem in the bay area.

www.indocommunity.us/news7.html

Pearl Jam Fan

Sonia has already said that she does not live in the Bay Area.

Given everything else she has said, and that she has experience as a grassroots activist in that area, can you explain why you ask her is she is aware of the story in that link, and what relevance it has to this thread, other than a kind of pointing the finger at something and doing nothing else? Given that, I think I recall, you also posted that story on another thread? Bear in mind what Dhavaak said above:

PJF - it is progressive to acknowledge one's faults - but even in a social setting - one doesnt just state facts unrelated to the discussion - it makes for a boring one-sided conversation - a more constructive presentation would be that you suggest what can be done to fix the problems at large

Pearl Jam Fan, in all seriousness, are you dealing with issues of depression? I too can understand about how problems we see in the world can affect us personally and contribute to a cycle of negative feelings and issues of self worth. It is often what we see in the world that makes us sad personally.

Wow, PFJ, I give up dude. Now you're just starting to depress me and I don't need that.

I tell you that I grew up in the Bay Area and you link me to some article from the year 2000? Do you just have a database of horrible Punjabis and randomly pull out incidents based on the other person's location? Props to you, but I'd suggest a job instead.

Go find some other articles by Lisa Fernandez - she's written many about Sikhs for the San Jose Mercury News. And don't be too surprised when you find she's actually written some great pieces on positive aspects of Sikhism and the Punjabi community, including the organization I mentioned earlier.

I'm sure it doesn't matter to you whatsoever, but you might be happy to know that the horrible Punjabi gangs in the Bay Area actually haven't been as much of an issue since the date of this article. But again, I'm sure that piece of information won't be included in your anti-Punjabi database.

I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt but I give up.

Pearl Jam Fan

I hate to say this - because I always like to engage with people honestly and straightforwardly and we have alot of issues in the Punjabi community that need addressing which you of course raise. But nothing that I or Sonia have said refute this - in fact we are two Sikh women engaging in dealing with some of them. So what is the need to regurgitate a news article from five years ago about something that Sonia herself says from personal experience is not an issue there anymore? Does this not suggest to you that things can and do change, and sometimes for the better?

Oh, this is the other thing I wanted to say, and that I hate to have to say it Pearl Jam Fan. But you come across as a troll sometimes. And I assume that you are not a troll because I always assume the best of people. But it should give you pause for thought about your demeanour, attitude and tenor, when in your repetitious negativity, you link to old stories (five years old!) over and over again, regardless of what is being discussed, to paint a picture of a gang epidemic in the Bay Area, which does not paint a true or balanced picture of the situation there at all, in fact, as Sonia has said, is an issue that has died away and is not relevant in the present day there. That is not to say that it is not to be monitored or watched or worried about, but in your almost propagandising repetition, you don't actually make the issue any clearer.

I am sorry if I offended you. But I just want to tell you how I see it. And I really hope you are not dealing with issues of depression and that your sensitivity towards the sometimes bad situation in BC is not contributing to a cycle of personal negativity which is causing you pain. You seem like a highly sensitive and compassionate guy. I hope you take my comments in the spirit in which they are intended.

I just did a google search and came across this article relating to the topic of this post - including a picture of the mayor wearing his pughri! He looks quite smart too.

Also nice to know is that the Sikh community raised $75,000 for the LA Regional Food Bank, another positive contribution and example of kar seva that we need to extend to all areas of our lives.

Nice find Sandy! I love when Mayors get involved and actually take an interest in minority groups. The San Jose Mayor, Ron Gonzales, was also a great sport and always helped out the Sikhs in the Bay Area. But I guess SoCal is cooler this one time because they got the mayor in a turban =)

Lots of white politcal leaders here in Vancouver wear turbans at sikh events here in BC. I hope that makes Sonia and Sandy Kaur happy.

Pearl Jam Fan

Why the sarcasm and undercurrent of hostility in your comment?

I think he panicked because he can't have a conversation which involves responding to questions posed by two Sikh women =)

Sandy kaur I was just saying that here in Vancouver our mayors and other leaders have been wearing turbans at sikh events for years. It's nothing new.

If I said anything to upset, forgive me cause I just found today that suffer from depression. So that kind of been hard to get used to.

P.S Khalistan forever, India never.... I've seen the light

Well Sonia, I've have no problem having a conservation with 2 strong independent strong sikh women. I happy to see you 2 are not going to back down from going after me more. You can keep taking personal shots at me if you want, but I won't go to the level.

I can't wait for the day when more women of punjabi and sikh background can do what ever they want without worry what other people in our community think.

PJF - Both of us are posing real questions to you and you are refusing to answer any of them. Instead, you retaliate by posting an outdated article and little snippets. How are we supposed to respect you if you can't even dignify us with a response to our questions? If you're looking for an adult conversation here, be an adult. We're giving you a chance here to explain where you're coming from .. because, I also have suspected that you were just a troll but wanted to give you a chance. You're obviously not taking advantage of that and are just going to behave like a child instead by avoiding our questions completely.

Pearl Jam Fan

Your response is very strange, erratic, erroneous, hostile and all over the place. You seem to suffering from a degree of paranoia too. I hate to say this, but it really does appear to me that you either really are suffering from depression, or you are a troll.

Last time I checked you 2 have taken personal shots at me and I have not taken any at you.

Sure I would like to answer some questions if you ask them without the attacks.

I can't wait for the day when more women of punjabi and sikh background can do what ever they want without worry what other people in our community think.

PJF

I doubt there are many people outside the usual suspects (patriarchal conservatives) who do not want this. And contrary to your perception (or projection) it is actually happening. The more your unrelenting gloom and recursive cynicism comes into play, the more I realise what it is about you that leaves such a bad taste in the mouth - it is the fact that your mentality becomes a self fulfilling prophecy - and that your negativity and unrelenting myopia breeds negativity across the board, including amongst those who are actually trying to do something about the situation. Some of your comments are simply fatuous.

Sure I would like to answer some questions if you ask them without the attacks.

It just gets darker and darker PJF. We have enough problems both internally and externally, life is hard enough balancing the need for constructive engagement and internal criticism with wariness because of a sometimes misunderstanding world and the fear and conservatism this engenders amongst us (especially post 9/11), without this kind of murkiness, my friend. I am sorry to say that I am beginning to feel that you are not sincere. And that makes me sad, because it does not help anyone, least of all the Sikh women that your heart bleeds for. Please say it is not true, Pearl Jam Fan.

Well Sandy kaur the list of sikh women my heart bleeds for includes my 7 year old daughter Angela kaur.

I have only child so alot of people of my background ask me when I will have a son, cause my life would be empty without a son,and I till them that there would be nothing wrong if I don't have a son.

PJF

I always had the impression that you were rather younger than a guy with a seven year old daughter. You made reference to your musical tastes and being teased about them once, I think.

I have only child so alot of people of my background ask me when I will have a son, cause my life would be empty without a son,and I till them that there would be nothing wrong if I don't have a son.

OK....and? Good for you. But what does this add to things, other than state the obvious, that there is a deeply ingrained preference for boys amongst lots of Punjabi people? Are you suggesting that you need to remind me of this? I know it, I devote my life to addressing this issue in as positive way I can (and also amongst the broader South Asian community)

anyone who buys into the women are afforded more rights in the sikh religion, please contact me - i have the golden gate bridge for sale.
while it may be proscribed as such in the granth sahib, in practice nothing could be farther from the truth.
my sister works for a domestic abuse center in the bay area. majority of the victims who walk through the doors of her org are sikh women. and most of the times from the educated/upper middle class category, to my surprise.
anyone who has been to punjab can tell you about the condition there.
i will relate one fact here - punjab has a very high rate of female foetus abortion.

Last time I checked you 2 have taken personal shots at me and I have not taken any at you.

We have asked you questions that did not involve attacks but instead of answering, you post random comments and random links. Obviously, if you can't respond like an adult, then we will suspect that you are a troll. Had you responded to any of my questions (or Sandy's or Dhaavak's), we could have had an intelligent discussion here. Collectively, we have asked you about your relationship with the religion of Sikhism, why you do not get involved with changing backward ideas, why you posted that random link to an article written in 2000, etc, etc.

Thanks for that NotPC - the dissapointing level of sexism and inequality amongst Sikhs is not being contested here - so you can keep the Golden Gate Bridge ;-)

Sonia I'm of a sikh background but I'm not very religous person. If you read my posts most of the time I'm talking about punjabi culture and not sikhism, other then few posts about Khalistan idiots.

Sandy kaur I was 15 years old in 91 when Pearl jam made it big so I'm 30 now. However I have since I've aged well I don't feel like I'm 30. Funny If I said the same thing as Notpc would you have acted the same.

You welcome, Sandy.
Ever in the market for a bridge, do call.
Aside:since you seem like a person wo doesn't shy away from an intelligent discussion, don't you think that you, given the context, should prompt a discussion on the rampant dicrimination against women prevalent in the macho punjabi/sikh culture. honor killings, for gods sake?
I beleive that people who may be lulled by the noble teachings of the gurus should be made aware of the real conditions, lest they think all is hunky dory.

I just want to say something else. Not neccessarily to PJF, because I always give people the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously I wish to maintain a certain level of anonymity here but I do have academic and personal experience in the field of social work and activism both in London and in the Midlands. I have also been involved in some of the consultative process between the Home Office and various Asian womens groups at a local level in dealing with issues of abuse and forced marriage.

One of the problems we face across all communities is a hyper-defensiveness from both men and women regarding issues of culture and especially religion. We need to ensure that when criticism is made it is done accurately and forcefully, especially in a social climate in which nerves are frayed and religious groups feel threatened and under attack. We have to do this in the face of active hostility - but we also have to do it with complete integrity to make sure that when we have to address regressive social issues in the guise of religion, or in some way protected by conservative elements, we have to make sure we do it with complete integrity.

That is why some things irk me. We don't need help from people who agendas that play on entire groups or religions and use these issues as a stick to be reductive and make essentialising attacks. It is damn annoying because our work is hard enough as it is without that.

Notpc talked about the punjab abortion rate of female fetus. It's sad to say but I know of several couples who have done this in Vancouver, and something must be done this. I hope that the 3 of us, Sandy kaur, Sonia and myself could put aside our disagrements and find a way to solve this problem.

One more thing Sonia, since you were from the bay area, were you at all a San Jose Sharks fan. They are the hottest team in hockey and my pick to win the stanley cup. Go Sharks!!!

notPC

I am sure you are well prepared to lead such a discussion - you seem itching to do so.

Thanks for responding to PearlJamFan's comments with compassion, dhavaak. I just have a couple of things to add:

I don't think PJF is a troll - I think he is actually cares about his community, is frustrated with what he sees in Vancouver and this is coming across really badly on these boards. I felt that his writing, communication/discussion skills certianly could use a little brushing up - not a crime - and certainly something that can change. PJF, I think you make a valid point in addressing problems rather than hiding them under the rug. But, you ARE really coming across as being negative - that doesn't mean that you are necessarily all doom & gloom, but I can see how it is annoying alot of people here. It could be that you just aren't communicating your ideas in a proactive way. First, address the problems where relevant, and then be willing to suggest possible solutions. Second, if the topic isn't relevant and you are concerned about a particular issue, consider submitting a news story in the news tab. These boards aren't for rants, they are for discussion. Third, there's definitely alot you can do in and for your community, as dhavaak suggested.

Also, I wanted to say that let's leave the depression diagnoses to professional psychologists and psychiatrists. There are MANY symptoms on the check list that are impossible to verify without any information about PJF. I consider it hurtful to diagnose someone, thereby labelling them, on a public forum such as this, even if you think you are being compassionate/understanding in doing so.

metric ang

I too wish to believe that. As I say, I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I was also speaking from concern because I too have gone through phases in which my issues with aspects of community life contribute to negative feelings (and actually see this happen often across the board in my working life too).

You are right Metric Ang, I'm very frustrated at what I see in the Vancouver punjabi community. I know sometimes I go to far. But I just want to get people talking, so we can fix these problems. It just bothers me when see these problems in my community but not in other desi communites.

It just bothers me when see these problems in my community but not in other desi communites.

I see them in other desi communities every day PJF.

If it was just based on this thread, I would not have suspected PJF of being a troll. But when I see that nearly every thread he comments on includes putting down the Punjabi community, I obviously begin to wonder. Anyways, I'm off to the gym so I'll reply to PJF directly later on.

"It just bothers me when see these problems in my community but not in other desi communites."

These problems (sexism, regressive thinking) exist in other communities as well - we've learned about the Pakistani community in the U.K., and various other communities. The reasons for these are multi-dimensional. You can help by opening up the communication. What are the causes of the problem(s)? What are the solutions? And more importantly, how are you going to communicate your ideas and solutions?

I know that you are fixated on the issues and they bother you, and that's probably why you comment on them in this and many other postings - because you feel you have some firsthand knowledge and background to be able to assert yourself. However, you've got to start thinking about some of the suggestions I outlined in the last paragraph. I see you've already taken a step in the right direction. I'm sure some of the others here who share the same faith and culture can offer some guidance and suggestion.

ps.

PJF

I wanted to add that the problems you have talked about are rampant in many communities. You are just exposed to the problems more because you're right THERE in the middle of a huge punjabi populaition. That doesn't mean it's not an issue - but just be assured that the issues you speak of also exist in other South Asian communities - I can vouch for that, having lived across Canada, and visiting the U.S. as well.

One of the main problems is people who come from India to live in places like England, Canada and United States is number of people like them. If the number is small the chance it people will get exposed into culture of the new country. However if they have large number of people of there backgrounds they are more likely to keep there vaule system of there homeland which does not fit into western ways of thinking. In the punjabi community this is more of problem in Canada and England then it is in the United States.

Before I moved to Vancouver 4 years ago, I spent the 1st 26 years of my life in area with about 25 indian familes[most punjabi] in area of close to 100,000 people. So I did not have much punjabi culture in my life before I moved to Vancouver.

I just think multiculturism does not work any more. It's not healthy for country to have many people of different ways of thinking to live together. Newcomers must accept that they no living in there homeland and there way of doing thinks well work here.

A perfect example is of muslims in europe and compare them to muslims in the united states.

Metric ang when I was talking about problems in other desi communities, I was talking about only other indians and not other south asian like pakistan, sri lanka or bangadelash.

For example of you never seen gurjati gangs, parsee gangs or kerela gangs or south indian gangs.

Sandy -
Now, now, no need to be sarcastic.
The second class treatment of women in the sikh culture is an urgent social matter, which needs to to be addressed by people such as you and I.
And if anybody is qualified to lead this discussion, it is you. After all you have the academic and field experience in social matters.

Notpc it's punjabi culture and not sikh culture.

PealJamFan -
Within the Punjabi [not including Muslim Punjabis] culture, discrimination against women is definitely more extreme amongst Sikhs.

notPC

On the coal face of working for battered women we often come across those who use these issues as opportunities to smear and denigrate entire religions and religious groups.

For example, with the current tensions over Islam, we face on a daily basis, the insidious blow back of Hindu fascist organisations in London who use the malaise of domestic violence and other social crimes against Pakistani girls and women in order to attack Muslims as a whole.

They have a sly and varied agenda, and they make life more difficult for us and our efforts. I have very little respect for these people, because they really have no love or concern for the women we seek to help, and like hyenas, seek to turn tragedies into their personal communalist assault. As a woman who works on the coal face, on the front line, and sees how Islam is actually a source of comfort for many of the women who seek our help, and work actively to liberate Pakistani and Bengali women from oppressive circumstances, I will always listen to the reformist voices of Muslim women themselves, but will respectfully allow those from outside that community, whose motivations I doubt, to extemporise at length to their hearts content, and will concentrate myself on helping vulnerable women, Muslim, Sikh and Hindu to escape their personal circumstances.

You will understand that I will not engage in discussion with people and over matters that are extraneous to the frontline work I do on these issues. And I also feel confident that you will respect this too, as the gentleman and respectful individual that I am sure you are. You will also understand why chomping at the bit outsiders with essentialising theorems are not people whom I myself personally choose to engage with on these matters. You will appreciate the dynamics of it and will also understand why I do not want to get bogged down in this discussion. I am sure of it, because you are an untelligent man.

I trust that you will not be aggressive in your response if you take this post in an unfortunate way or erroneously take it as a personal slight against yourself. That would be most unsympathetic and sad - I would not wish you to misunderstand, it would upset me so much if you did.

regards

A typo:

I am sure of it, because you are an untelligent man

Should read:

I am sure of it, because you are an INTELLIGENT man.

And I sense that you are, notPC, a very sensitive and high specimen of manhood.

For example of you never seen gurjati gangs, parsee gangs or kerela gangs or south indian gangs

When my husband was at NYU, there was a gang called the Malayalee Hit Squad. I just want you to know that things happen outside of Vancouver and you need to stop basing all of your points of view on where you live. Obviously, you have the most understanding of the situation there, but you cannot speak for the entire Punjabi community. Obviously, there were (and probably still are) non-Punjabi, Indian gangs, just as there are battered women who are Hindu, Christian, Muslim, etc.

Every community has its flaws - stop whining and start fixing!

If the number is small the chance it people will get exposed into culture of the new country.

I completely agree. It also has to do with profession. Those who entered the corporate world obviously had to create relationships with people outside of their community. They would not be able to grow in their job if they didn't. So these people learn about other cultures and therefore also learn to assimilate (in a healthy way). However, assimilation is much harder for those who chose professions where they had no interaction with other communities. They still believe India is the same as when they left it decades ago and that's the culture they impose on their children. There's no arguing that.

However, we are the next generation and this blog is all about South Asians (for the most part) who are trying to balance two cultures. I'm sure that your daughter will be raised to know that she is an equal and has all the rights that a man does. I hope that you'll teach her the good aspects of Sikhism and Punjabi culture (like bhangra!!), instead of focusing on the negative.

We face opposition from many different fronts - the patriarchal conservatives of all the religious groups we deal with, often to the extent of receiving death threats from anonymous sources, we are actively engaged in criticising entrenched attitudes effectively and accurately when needed, and to add to the mix, communalists with their own agendas also seek to sectarianise the issues we face everyday. One thing we have learnt is that you have to believe in Asian sisterhood to function in this world, without prejudice, and with so many hurdles in our way, so much opposition, atavism, silence, conservatism and denial, we must also resist being used as tools of battery against vulnerable groups and engaging in rhetoric that is counter-productive to our only concern - the safety of those women who need our help.

I should of course add and make clear that the mischievousness of communalists adds to the defensive barriers constructed by individuals and communities and in practise contributes to the atmospherics of denial and silence and often translate into part of the panoply of methods available to brow beat women inside families or relationships facing abuse by either (a) genuinely or (b) cynically making their escape (both mental and physical) more difficult. Hyenas is absolutely the correct description of such men (and it is always men)

I agree with Metric Ang. There is no need to pathologize the fellow and label him clinically depressed. Sheesh! Yes it was out of place in a celebretory thread. But PJF strikes me as a guy who cares about his fellow Punjabis. If he does turn out to be a troll I'll eat my words :)

Other gangs?

Mimicking the tough street hustlers among the inner city youth, South Asian American gangs are to be found in Jersey City and Edison, in Jackson Heights and Elmhurst, and in Brooklyn's Midwood area, reports Ana Arana in the Village Voice.

The Medina Boys, named after the Muslim holy city, is made up of Pakistanis who mostly reside in the Jackson Heights area. The Malayalee Hit Squad is named for the Indian area where most of its members' families come from.

DJ Rekha and others trace the origin of South Asian gangs to the late 1980's and early 1990's, when gangs of white youths beat unsuspecting South Asians and vandalized shops in Jersey City. The so-called Dot Buster Gang attacks opened the eyes of the young South Asian population and led to the creation of consciousness-raising groups in colleges. In the streets, and at the high school level, it led kids to the realization that they would have to fight back so as to not get beaten up in school. [Link]

The references to Edison and Jersey city imply that these are Gujju gangs b/c that area is so heavily Gujarati. The Midwood and Jackson heights gangs are Pakistani, although I don't know if they are Punjabi Pakistani. And now that I've told you about the "Malayalee Hit Squad" you know why I always speak to Vinod and Anna with only the utmost respeck.

PJF - of course, living in Vancouver, the only desi gangs you see are Punjabi, Vancouver is heavily Punjabi. Travel to areas with more mixed populations and you'll see different gangs.

Yes it was out of place in a celebretory thread. But PJF strikes me as a guy who cares about his fellow Punjabis. If he does turn out to be a troll I'll eat my words :)

i second it. in my case, i will bite words though :).

from ennis #81, maybe it is time we all took a look at what is happening in terms of gang culture. these things should be nipped in the bud before they become violent---the same article ennis quotes mentions that the new gangs are not yet hard criminal. we all (punjabi/non punjabi) have enough other troubles to get mired in one more.

happy belated baiskahi all!

When my husband was at NYU, there was a gang called the Malayalee Hit Squad.

I am really excited that the Mayor participated in this. The LA Sikhs have been doing a lot of really awesome things over the past few years, and it's nice to see positive, celebratory, consciousness-raising community events. Not so sure how I feel about the Yogi Bhajan cereal, but that has more to do with Yogi Bhajan than with cereal.

anyone who buys into the women are afforded more rights in the sikh religion, please contact me - i have the golden gate bridge for sale.
while it may be proscribed as such in the granth sahib, in practice nothing could be farther from the truth.
my sister works for a domestic abuse center in the bay area. majority of the victims who walk through the doors of her org are sikh women. and most of the times from the educated/upper middle class category, to my surprise.
anyone who has been to punjab can tell you about the condition there.
i will relate one fact here - punjab has a very high rate of female foetus abortion.

Ok, I have more than a few things to say about these comments about "backwards Sikh/Punjabi culture." First and foremost these are two different cultures. Are most Sikhs also Punjabi? Yes. Are most Punjabis Sikh? Not necessarily. These are two different communities with two different cultural norms that sometimes reinforce or contrast one another. One is cultural, and the other is religious. So please don't conflate the two. It is unsurprising that we do not see people practicing full gender equality in Sikh communities and in Punjabi communities. Please, open your eyes and take a look around you - women of ALL colors and ALL religions do not live lives of equality under the current patriarchy. Some violence towards women is more overt, and some is more insidious. Painting one group more "backwards" than another is a narrow and shallow analysis of the complexities of issues around gender, violence, and power dynamics in a broader context.

Basically, everyone has ish. To pretend that the Punjabi community is intrinsically more ridiculous is like the pot calling the kettle dirty bottom. Further, it just plays into stereotypes about Punjabis. And to top it off, the Sikh community gets ENOUGH crap just for existing. It would be great if people devoted their energy towards living lives devoted to increasing equality on all levels for all people, and if they matched this with working diligently to improving the lives of people within our communities. I think it's important to recognize that no community is perfect or ideal, and it's also important to recognize the drastic issues and concerns facing our folks (e.g. domestic violence, high rates of son-preference in family planning). But for Pete's sake, stop complaining and being all cynical, and do something about it.

y--o--u... h-a-v-e ... a ... h-h-h-u... -choke-

ha .. ha .. ha .. very funny =)

One of the things I that I speak about alot is Sexism in punjabi culture, and how upsets me alot that females don't have the same rights as males in our culture.

wait a minute...guru nnak quote about the equality the woman has in the faith -

From woman man is born, within woman, man is conceived, to a woman he is engaged and married. Woman becomes his friend, through woman, the future generations exist. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From a woman, woman is born, Without woman there would be no one at all. (Guru Granth Sahib, 473)
it is not the faith that rpomotes sexism, but society. and if you don't like it, don't add to it by more hatred, that gets us nowhere. work to change the ideas.

and i too go thru similar problems, becaus ei cannot bear children, but it's not the faith's fault, it's society. just because you sikhs who don't give women equal place does not mean the faith is bad. it's those people's thinking, and society. in soceity, we are made to think we need to bear chidlren, or need to bear males, and it's not so. we are willed as we are willed. but alas, we must also work with it, and not sit and hate ourselves and our culture for it, because it's not the faith's fault, it's people's thinking, and believe you me, those archaic views are shared by many cultures. so you must do somthing positive about it.

ok...that was my 2 cents. and i will always be greatful to and for my sikh family. i've had better treatment from them than i have from others. i know this isn't always the case for all, but bad happens everywhere. and we must deal with it.

let us remmeber the last stanza of desiderata...

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.

and in that same veign, as much as people are horrid, there is still much good to be had amongst it. strive to see this and work to get rid of the bad. we make our own trouble, our own horridness. and we can rid oursleves of it as well.

wjkk, whjkf.....

Not so sure how I feel about the Yogi Bhajan cereal, but that has more to do with Yogi Bhajan than with cereal.

glad you said it...

PearlJamFan has been called a "troll," his negativity has been attributed to depression and his initial post--which shows the obvious difference between where the two sides of this argument live--has been entirely dismissed. But why?

PearlJamFan's life experience isn't like yours and frankly, where most of you live doesn't compare to where he is and therefore, shouting "Happy Baisakhi!" just doesn't work. He's not an academic nor a social activist, just someone who wants people to pay attention to a very depressed and rapidly degenerating situation in the community. But as far as I can tell, the overwhelming response he's received has been to 'shut up,' or 'lighten up'...

... Which is unfortunate because he was pointing out a very disturbing aspect of the B.C. Baisakhi and all of you ignored that. Likewise, a few days ago, Abhi posted about the gangs & violence in B.C. and some of the more vocal voices here didn't choose to participate in that discussion. So, my guess is PearlJamFan keeps bringing this stuff up because he believes people don't care about it and he wants that to change.

Ultimately, I don't know if PearlJamFan is the best guy to speak for what's going on in B.C., he's only lived there four years. However, his sentiments are shared by many people in B.C. and the Northwest and therefore, regardless of academic and field credentials, I don't think anyone here is in a position to dismiss what he's saying. Similarly, it's ridiculous to chide him for saying things out of context as many posts on SM go off track and people have no complaint. In the end, if you don't like what he has to say, just ignore it because it's a bit silly to spend so many posts telling a guy to shut up without ever really addressing his point.

I have only lived in the vancouver area for 4 years but I lived my who life in the province of British Columbia in the area of Castlegar and Nelson, Britsh Columbia.

And if I have any reason for suffering from depression its has nothing to do with the punjabi issues. It would be cause I'm a Chicago Cubs fans. They haven't won the World Series in 98 years, but this is gonna be the year.

let it be known that i simply said happy baisakhi for simple reasons, not to be snarky or anything. how do you know that other havn't had equally as rough lives. not to play down any one's person's life, but everyone has their story, and it's how they choose to use it. - to help others, or to just just try to beat the bat.

... Which is unfortunate because he was pointing out a very disturbing aspect of the B.C. Baisakhi and all of you ignored that. Likewise, a few days ago, Abhi posted about the gangs & violence in B.C

well, golly, why not help us all work to stop these things, and change those apsects instead of ading to the compliants of what we're doing wrong?! we need inspiration too sometimes.

point being, if you wnat soemthing cnaged, don't sit and complain, help others to find a way to improve soemthing, because you're not improving anything.

Not so sure how I feel about the Yogi Bhajan cereal, but that has more to do with Yogi Bhajan than with cereal.

I'm glad Taz found a pic of Villaraigosa in a pagri. Made my night ;)

dogday

You misrepresent what people like Sonia and Sandy Kaur have been saying, I think. Seeing as they are both community activists themselves, I would say that their opinions hold a certain weight. If you did read what they said carefully, you wouldnt have made this statement:

In the end, if you don't like what he has to say, just ignore it because it's a bit silly to spend so many posts telling a guy to shut up without ever really addressing his point.

Because this is exactly what they have been addressing.

This thread has taken an interesting course while I've been away, it seems.....

Just to re-iterate what Pattie Kaur, Sonia, Sandy Kaur and Camille have been saying (and indeed what PJF himself later mentioned), there is a difference between the Sikh religion and Punjabi culture. The two are not synonymous or interchangeable. Not all Sikhs are Punjabi (although most are) and by no means are all Punjabis Sikhs (huge numbers are not). There is therefore no such thing as "Sikh culture".

Sikhism does indeed emphasise the fundamental equality between men and women along with female rights (not just in the scriptures of the Guru Granth Sahib but also in the overall religious framework implemented and encouraged by the Sikh Gurus), even though unfortunately this hasn't always implemented by numerous Sikhs during the 300 years since Guru Gobind Singh passed away, due to the prevailing social/regional/cultural environment and of course basic human failings.

But again, this is an attitude prevalent within South Asians of all backgrounds and is not something unique or specific to the Sikh community. It happens because they're South Asian, and due to some of the negative cultural influences and mores of the subcontinent, not because they're Sikhs or Punjabis.

Anyway, let me take this opportunity to wish everyone a Happy Vaisakhi. Waheguruji Ka Khalsa, Waheguruji Ki Fateh.

But as far as I can tell, the overwhelming response he's received has been to 'shut up,' or 'lighten up'...

Hmm .. then you should try reading a little more carefully. It's actually PJF who has been avoiding every question we have raised by throwing more negativity in, in each of his comments. We're trying to help him by getting him to do something in his community, by providing examples of how we have changed things. However, he has chosen to ignore everything helpful we have said and instead just focus on the negative. Our point was never to tell him to shut up or lighten up, but more so to get up and do something. We all realize the problems and none of us are saying that they're not there - but we, for some crazy reason, think it's better to try to fix them than constantly wallow in them. PJF keeps lamenting over how he wants us to have the same rights as Sikh men - well he needs to get out there and do things for Sikh women then. If we can stand up for ourselves and have no problem believing that we are equal to any Sikh man, he should not have to spend all his time "worrying" for us and our future. Your buddy needs to be more active in the real world rather than in the internet world, where he finds negative aspects of the Punjabi community (from 5 years ago) based on me telling him where I gew up.

And if I have any reason for suffering from depression its has nothing to do with the punjabi issues. It would be cause I'm a Chicago Cubs fans.

Wow, a sense of humor finally comes out from behind all that negativity!!

I've been following this discussion and one or more individuals have been using multiple aliases to make their arguments. It is okay to use an alias or multiple aliases on our website but not multiple aliases pretending to be different people on the SAME THREAD. You know who you are and I will ask you to refrain from this in the future or I will step in. We will add this to our comment policy. Thank you.

My 1st post in this topic was about the Khalistan groups trying to turn biasakhi into a event to promote there own agenda. I wished some time could have been spent on that topic.

Just got this in an e-mail and thought I'd share - some amazing pictures from Vaisakhi celebrations in Southall

well put, jai. and sonia, thanks sharing for those pics!

Sandy,
For some reason you have drawn this conclusion that I am an intelligent man.
Whatever gave you that idea? I kid, i kid.
If anything, I consider myself a NotPC man - aka, Not politically correct.
I believe that is what is needed desperately in our [Sikhi, of which I too am an adherent]faith.
Instead of wasting ink, talking about what the Hindus are doing to shame everyone else, which quite frankly is a pattern of all religions. [It is not as if us Sikhs are the nicest people walking this planet.] Why don't we cleanse our faith of the ills, which seem to be growing by leaps and bounds.
p.s. I am really amazed that you being a Sikh woman are not interested in discussing the suffering faced by your and my sisters day in and day out.

Well I think there is a huge Punjab/Mexican population in Nor Cal...read the Book, Punjab/Mexican I think is the name...so seeing a mexican in this light isn't a surprise...but what up with the conservative Desi folk? In any case, glad my girl found your site so now I can be in the loop and not by watching that corney stuff on Zee T.V.

Joaquin:

Are you Punjabi-Mexican?

So many issues, so little time

First of all, repeatedly calling someone depressed is a despicable thing to do, especially given the nonconfrontational posts by PJF in this thread. Have some remorse Sandy Kaur.

Now, on to the gangs.. As has been posted above, there is no doubt that there are ALL kinds of Indian gangs. This problem is not limited to Sikhs in Surrey, BC by any means. But come on, is it that hard to admit that the most seriously violent Desi gangs in the US/Canada are predominantly Sikh?? Surely someone you know, knows someone who has been involved at some time in a Desi gang (no, not a party crew lol). I know the article linked by PJF (www.indocommunity.us/news7.html) is old, but isn't it interesting that both Gujurati's and Punjabi's each made up 25% of the Indo population in the Bay Area in 2000, yet none of the gangs mentioned in that article are Guju (I know, and if you don't, ask someone from the Bay). Once the Sikh community accepts and acknowledges that they have some problems that are more serious than those of other communities, then only can steps be taken to ameliorate the situation.

Jai, thanks for making the distinction between the Sikh religion and Punjabi culture. However, I contend that a Sikh culture separate from Punjabi culture DOES exist.

One example is the subculture of Sikh youths in America (as that is all I have experience with). I'm talking about Sikh youths who think that wearing a karra (screw the turban, that's not cool) makes you Sikh. I'm talking about Sikh youths who have a lot of hatred towards their Hindu classmates (remember what they did to us in 1984, sure it was 10 years before you were born and I don't even understand all the issues, but make sure you hate those Hindus). Sikh youths who don't give a damn about what the Guru's have written. Sikh youths who think that there are only 2 kinds of Indians: Sikhs and Hindus. Sikh youths who think all Sikhs are Jat and that all Jats are Sikh. I'm not just talking about 10 year olds; some of these people have been in their 20s and 30s. Now thankfully, the people that fall into these groups represent a minority of the Sikh community. But this minority DOES exist and the Sikh community needs to denounce their activities.

(rant)
When Muslim terrorists hijack planes and crash them into the WTC, the Islamic community in the US obviously denounced that act. But when there is video footage of the Islamic community overseas celebrating that horrible act, the Islamic community in the US needs to DENOUNCE THEM (those who would celebrate such a thing).
In the same way, when the fringe Khalistani Sikhs in Canada have pictures of dead people on their float and are stopped by police, the Sikh community should DENOUNCE THEM. When they fly planes with horrible banners at an India Independance Day, DENOUNCE THEM. Don't allow the fringe elements to use your religion (Islam, Sikhism) for their own agenda. Don't ignore that these things happen. It is said best in The Boondock Saints, "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."
(/rant)

One last comment for now.. Sikhism is a religion. And that there are good and bad aspects of EVERY religion. Remember that. If you believe in your religion, good for you. But don't be fooled into thinking your religion is without problems.

I've got to run, I'm late for my appointment to go fight Dalip Singh!!

Ranadhi Savage,

However, I contend that a Sikh culture separate from Punjabi culture DOES exist.

This is an issue of semantics. If behavioural traits specifically deriving from -- and in line with -- religious tenets occur then that can nominally be defined as "Sikh culture". However, the negative behaviour you have been describing occurs amongst individuals who happen to be of Sikh origin but has nothing to do with the religion itself (and in many cases directly contravenes the ideals of the faith). Again, one has to make the distinction clear here.

Sikhism is a religion. And that there are good and bad aspects of EVERY religion. Remember that. If you believe in your religion, good for you. But don't be fooled into thinking your religion is without problems.

Perhaps you should explain, for our benefit, what you believe to be "bad aspects" of Sikhism. I am not referring to the misguided behaviour of some people who can loosely be termed its adherents. I am referring to the actual religion itself, the principles and teachings it enshrines, and the actions of the Sikh Gurus during their earthly lifetimes.

I will refrain from responding to your comments about the (to use your words) "fringe elements" as I do not wish to see this thread turned into some kind of flame war about the hypothetical merits and demerits of Khalistan, although people who claim to act in the name of a particular religion but act in direct violation of its humanitarian ideals should certainly be unequivocally condemned.

Jai,

although people who claim to act in the name of a particular religion but act in direct violation of its humanitarian ideals should certainly be unequivocally condemned.

topic of Khalistan groups trying to turn biasakhi into a event to promote there own agenda.

I see your point about what you believe can be defined as "Sikh culture". Does "Sikh culture" necessarily have to be limited to behavioural traits specifically deriving from -- and in line with -- (Sikh) religious tenets? I sincerely ask, what label would be appropriate to accord to the subculture I described? The culture of Sikh American youths?

In regards to my comment that all religions have good and bad aspects, let me clarify that I think everyone should question what their religion 'tells' them instead of blindly following what they've been 'told'.

In regards to the religion of Sikhism, I do not think there are any bad aspects of the philosophy as stated here: http://www.sikhs.org/philos.htm
Actually, I very much agree with many of them. Now an anecdote and a question.. A Sikh friend once told me that the religion says 'if you get slapped, you don't turn the other cheek, you fight back'. I'm not sure if the religion even says something like this, let alone what the context may be. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Khalistan idealogues will never be fringe elements, but the majority have simmered down the rhetoric over the years but it is unwise to think that the memory of 1984 will slowly fade away, indeed in the united kingdom many noble edifices have been erected to honour those who made great sacrifices. - Just thought I should mention.

Last year I went to my cousins wedding in Stockton, Califronia. The only gurdwara there was pro-khalistan. The entire langar hall was covered with pictures of men with machine guns. They were a few non-sikh's at the wedding, and they were confused for the reason about those pictures. How do you non skih's are gonna feel when they see picutres like that at sikh's temple.

The wedding was during the summer, so it was a very hot day. And the baba had promised my uncle that they would not spread there views. Yet the baba went off on pro-khalistan rant that had nothing to do with a wedding. I can't recall how many he said the word khalistan during the wedding. By this time everybody was getting anoyed and also getting very hot since the air conditing did not work[ I guess they rather spend there money on other things].

I just don't understand why people would want to hear about this at a wedding.

I think the issue of Khalistan is complicated, misrepresented, and volatile. That said, I personally don't want to get into it because I think that people come with a lot of baggage and preconceptions with this discussion, and I don't think that the questions or issues being raised are meant to inspire dialogue, but rather, are being used as a proxy for extrapolating gross generalizations about Sikhi, Sikhs in general, and Sikh politics. For me, it is not worth the time to explain why 1% of a population is not indicative of the whole; I would hope that this would be self-evident.

With respect to Stockton gurdwara, the oldest and first gurdwara in the U.S., many of the pictures on the wall are not of Khalistanis. For those who are Sikh, the idea of commemoration and remembrance is something we've cultivated over time. In my opinion, this is due in part to gross oppression, and also due to the fact that we have very little recorded history. Why, you might ask? Because it keeps getting burned (literally)! I don't know who said it, but there's a quote that says the easiest way to destroy a people is to destroy their history. I think Sikhs are cognizant of this idea and are trying to hold onto whatever history possible to help themselves remember the real and painful things their community endures daily.

And I won't even entertain the comment about Sikh gangs vs. Gujuratis. If you had substituted the word "African American" for Sikh, your comment would have been called racist and ignorant. I would challenge you to think critically about the many factors that contribute to gang violence before resorting to an unsophisticated argument labelling Sikhs as inherently violent. And that's where I will leave that.

A Sikh friend once told me that the religion says 'if you get slapped, you don't turn the other cheek, you fight back'. I'm not sure if the religion even says something like this, let alone what the context may be. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

camille,

you did true seva right there. much respect

The part of sikh gangs vs gurjat should really be punjabi vs gurjati people. Punjabi and gurjati's are the 2 main ethnic groups in the Bay Area. Yet the kids from punjabi background are getting into gangs anf gurjati's are not.

Some has to explain why that is. I think there reason that might upset some people

In every race there are some people more violent the other. For the white race or people from Europe. People from Italy and Ireland are gonna be more quick to use violence then people from Norway or Switerzland.

In the East Asian or Oriental People. Flipino people or people from Vietnam are more likely to be violent then people from Japan or South Korea.

And of the 1 billion people of Indian background, Punjabi are more likely to be violent then people from Kerala or people of parsee backgrounf

Camille

For me, it is not worth the time to explain why 1% of a population is not indicative of the whole; I would hope that this would be self-evident.

If you had substituted the word "African American" for Sikh, your comment would have been called racist and ignorant.

I think Sikhs are cognizant of this idea and are trying to hold onto whatever history possible to help themselves remember the real and painful things their community endures daily.

the machismo of PUNJABI culture

After further reading of the Sikh philosophy as I posted at the link above (http://www.sikhs.org/philos.htm) I have to say that the things I agree with in general are actually the interpretations? presented (the items in bold). Some of the translated quotes are written in a very (for my lack of vocabulary) condescending tone. This outlook may have been necessary when the religion began but it certainly isn't anymore. Some of the translations look down on the practices of other religions and maybe this is another explanation for the activities of many Sikh youths.

Why can't you or anyone else on this thread acknowledge that the Sikh community has a more serious issue with their youth participating in gangs than other Desi communities?

Further, my argument is that there are UNDERLYING FACTORS that contribute to gang violence that are unrelated to one's "race." Examples of underlying factors include, poverty, unemployment, and alienation. Instead of blaming this on the "pathology of Sikhs," I would challenge folks to examine why social issues disproportionately affect Punjabi populations in California (and I say Punjabi since a good number of people who are affected are from many different religions). This would be a conversation that I might find interesting and possibly engaging, not a diatribe on Sikhs.

From what I've read, it seems that Sikhs are doing a great job of holding onto their history. The community is very tight, strong, and organized. Since this thread has been OT for a while, I'd like to know why most all of the Sikhs in India are Punjabi? Were other ethnic groups/castes not allowed? Was there a process whereby the eldest son in a Punjabi Hindu family became Sikh? I ask because I've heard this, yet have a hard time finding any information on it.

The question about Punjabis being Sikh is complicated, because the Punjabi community is diverse. While we're all from the land of five rivers, or whatnot, there are definitely regional differences. Sikhi is distinctly anti-caste system, which means that there was no exclusion of people by caste in entering the faith. If you'd like to learn more about some of the philosophy behind langar and sangat and its effort to be anti-caste, I can address that later. Further, there was (and is) no exclusion by ethnicity. Sikhi started in what is now NW India and SE Pakistan, and this is a probable explanation for why so many Punjabis are also Sikh. Why are there so many Buddhists in Northeast India? Because the Buddha started out there. I have a hunch that geopolitics also played a strong role since Sikhi really took off around the same time as the Mughal empire. You see adherents from all over those areas that were under Mughal control.

With respect to the eldest son question, I don't have a concrete source for you, but I was told that this was common among SOME Hindu Punjabi families, particularly out in Patiala. At any rate, the tradition was that you sent your eldest son for spiritual training, and for many Hindu families this included a life of asceticism for their child. In Sikhi, it is considered important for people to engage in the world around them, and consequently, we technically have no clergy, and asceticism is not seen as an acceptable way to live your life. So, for families who wanted to send a son away for religious training, but maybe only had one son or were worried for him, one of the appealing factors of Sikhi is that it allows for everyone to have a family and a life in addition to a religious education. This actually causes a lot of tension when some people get into the "Is Sikhism a sect of Hinduism" argument, because many of these eldest sons were nominally Sikh but continued practicing Hinduism, which is of course not allowed in Sikhi. Others really embraced Sikhi and practiced only Sikhi.

Some of the translations look down on the practices of other religions and maybe this is another explanation for the activities of many Sikh youths.

Further, Sikhi does not degrade other religions. I don't find the bolded text condescending, but rather explanatory. Perhaps this is simply a difference in interpretation because we are starting out with different preconceived ideas about Sikhi and Sikhs. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is explicit in its acceptance (not just tolerance) of other faiths; however, it does say, "If you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu. If you're a Muslim, be a good Muslim." The thrust behind this is that ritual and ostentation in the name of religion is false (and these behaviors are criticized in GGSJ), and a person has to internalize the teachings of their faith and try to live a virtuous life. The basic gist is focus on yourself, not on showing everyone else how holy you are.

The example Sikhs will probably always cite in explaining our acceptance of other faiths is that of the ninth Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur Ji. The fact that Sikhs went to battle over the rights of Hindus to live and practice their faith freely, without taxation or threat of violent conversion from the Mughal emperor, is indicative of our commitment to justice. Our religion does not simply expouse freedom for Sikhs, it expouses the commitment to freedom and justice for humanity.

The analogy I was told by my nanaji was this: Religions are simply road maps to Vaheguru. Like water moving towards the ocean, there are many ways you can get there. You could be a rain drop and fall in directly, you could work your way there slowly through the ground, you might sit in the ground for ages and move through some kind of evapotranspiration cycle, or you could come in through a river. Religion is like a river; it is simply a direct source to the ocean. Of course, in Sikhi we don't conceive of Vaheguru as an ocean, but this was a useful image for for me as a little kid.

The critiques in scripture are not of religions, but rather, of the cooptation of faith through ritual and through the creation of power hierarchies that disenfranchise common people from their spirituality. Here is a parallel example: Many say that the Protestant Reformation was a response to corruption w/in the Catholic Church and an overemphasis on ritual. Sikhi is not a reform movement, it is an entirely unique and different faith, but the critiques in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji are critiques of the "corruption" of religious institutions by HUMANS, not an intrinsic issue of the religion itself. These are the critiques in the GGSJ; there are not evidence of an anti-anyone-who-isn't-Sikh outlook. And of course, I have to say it, but we also include a number of writings and comments by people of other faiths in the text of the GGSJ, the most notable being Bhagat Kabir.

I hope some of this was helpful, although it's a bit disjointed.

If you can find a moment in a movie where a Sikh man is not either a) a drunk buffoon/clown (super offensive since consumption of alcohol, etc is forbidden), or b) the villain, I would appreciate an extended list.

Govind Nihalini's Vijeta where Shashi Kapoor's son Kunal Kapoor played a turbaned-sikh airforce pilot as an absolute stand-up hero. The movie was 100% shot in NDA (National Defence Academy, Khadakvasla, Pune) and was released in 1983.

It was not a mega-hit beacuse Kunal's acting skills were limited but was appreciated in art house cinema. Govind Nihalini is a top-notch film maker.

Here in Vancouver area there have been some links between Khalistan sikh's and indo-canadian gangs.

Example include the murder of Tera Singh Hayer who was the editor of the indo-canadian times.[the only journalist ever killed in canada because of his job]. He was killed by indo-canadian gangesters who were hired by the group Babba Khalsa.

Just couple of weeks ago a top indo-canadian gangester named Roman Nerwal get 17 years in jail for 3 seperate kidnappings. He was the son of man who had links to the air-india bombers. At his trial several children of top khalistan leaders in canada came to support him in court. Also sikh leaders of khalistan sikh temple's here wrote letters about how he was a changed man, but the judge didn't fall for that.

The air-india bombers were able to be found not guility, thanks to help of indo-canadian gangesters who were able to scare several key witness off.

Also back when the moderate and khalistan sikh temples were fighting over chairs and tables. Several of the khalistan leaders used gangesters on there side to help with them scare the other side

Ranadhi Savage,

Why haven't any Sikh's posted 'That's just wrong of those groups to promote their own agenda on Baisakhi'?

As Camille stated, the issue of Khalistan is complicated. Perhaps one of the reasons why Sikhs here have not necessarily objected to the above is because they do not believe there is anything wrong in the concept of a state founded on, and governed according to, Sikh principles and ideals.

However, the precise location of such a hypothetical state (whether in India or anywhere else) and the methods used to achieve the founding of such a nation, are of course entirely different matters.

Does "Sikh culture" necessarily have to be limited to behavioural traits specifically deriving from -- and in line with -- (Sikh) religious tenets?

Yes. The term "Sikh" is a religiously-derived term.

I sincerely ask, what label would be appropriate to accord to the subculture I described? The culture of Sikh American youths?

Exactly.

let me clarify that I think everyone should question what their religion 'tells' them instead of blindly following what they've been 'told'.

This is exactly what Sikhism says, with regards to the religion's own adherents and also followers of other organised faiths.

A Sikh friend once told me that the religion says 'if you get slapped, you don't turn the other cheek, you fight back'. I'm not sure if the religion even says something like this, let alone what the context may be. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Camille has already answered this eloquently. However, to expand on her response, the Sikh concept of these matters is that if someone physically attacks you (and you are an innocent party in this situation), you defend yourself to prevent them from continuing to attack you. You also ask them what their problem is and attempt to initiate a dialogue in order to defuse the situation. If they continue to attack you, you continue to defend yourself until the only methods to remedy the situation are to incapacitate them or walk away. The latter option should not be exercised out of cowardice but if the fight "isn't worth it".

Since this thread has been OT for a while, I'd like to know why most all of the Sikhs in India are Punjabi?

Historically this was not the case. It happened due to the Mughal onslaught and the necessity for Sikhs to unify into a more organised group. Sikhs were originally from all over the Indian subcontinent -- even during the time of Guru Gobind Singh -- although of course a greater number were from the Punjab region due to the localised presence of the Gurus there.

Were other ethnic groups/castes not allowed?

I suggest you do a search on the events of the first Vaisakhi in 1699 in order to see for yourself that the reality was actually the polar opposite of this assertion.

When so much pride is taken in being Sikh warrior women as in post 1, it should come as no surprise that the popular belief (as you put it) that some hold regarding Sikhs exists.

Beyond a warrior -- literally or figuratively -- is integral to the Sikh ethos. However, Guru Gobind Singh basically said "Try to be a saint first before you try to be a warrior". The warrior aspect is secondary to the high ideals, behaviour, and spirituality that a Sikh should possess (or be aiming for). There are also certain ethical constraints and injunctions regarding the manifestation of the warrior attitude and the situations in which it is acceptable. As Camille said, Sikhism is not actually a warlike religion -- as embodied by the contents and tone of Gurbani kirtan (and Guru Gobind Singh himself stated that the Guru Granth Sahib -- from which Gurbani kirtan is derived -- embodies his message).

Ranadhi Savage

Do you believe Hindus in America, England, Canada etc have to take responsibility for funding the extreme right wing fascists who give money and support to RSS Muslim killers in Gujarat? I have a whole stack of links and reports detailing the deep roots of support for Babri demolishers and Gujarat genocidalists from deep within the heart of American and British Hindu communities. What lessons can we learn about the weaknesses of Hinduism and why are Hindus not doing more to deal with this and 'take ownership' of the problem? Do you look inside yourself and try and understand where this hate mongering atavism comes from? Or do you only believe it is Sikhs and Muslims and others who have scum amongst them? In short, are you a Hindu chauvinist by default or active in this hypocrisy? Looking forward to your reply.

Ranadhi Savage

Can you explain the propensity for intermittent genocides to take place by castrated Hindus in India against minorities and the support and funding the organisers of such events receive from Hindus in the diaspora? As a Hindu, what does this tell you about the derived values of Hinduism? Is there a link between the values of Hinduism and these occurences? What do you think? Are there other factors involved?

Please be honest, do some soul searching, and make the connections to explain this please. Take ownership of this issue. The time has come for you to introspect. What values intrinsic to Hinduism cause this Hindu sub-culture? Please dont go into denial, face up to the hard questions. It is imperative that you do.

Camille,

I echo the comment by "Props" in post #109 ;)

With regards to what you said about the disrespectful depiction of Sikhs in Indian films, I know what you mean. However, one relatively recent, and very positive example, was the Sikh (and Keshdhari) Captain in Lakshya (who starred alongside Hrithik Roshan). He was a very major character in the movie.

I have also previously commented on the dubious depiction of turbaned Sikhs in many Indian television serials, although I am wary of broaching the topic here again because last time it all degenerated into a totally out-of-control flame war, with verbal abuse and ranting extending across multiple SM threads ;)

Camille and Jai, kudos to both of you for taking this on so well. I'm generally considered a patient person myself, but I wouldn't have the patience you both have shown in this discussion thread. As I've followed it, it amazes me how the comments have diverged from the topic and tone of Taz's original post.

I have also previously commented on the dubious depiction of turbaned Sikhs in many Indian television serials, although I am wary of broaching the topic here again because last time it all degenerated into a totally out-of-control flame war, with verbal abuse and ranting extending across multiple SM threads ;)

Doesn't it seem like, more often than not, that's what happens on Sikh-related threads? And more often than not, it's those who associate themselves with "open-mindedness" and "fighting the radical extremist Sikh machine" (my paraphrasing) who spur on the abuse and ranting.

Camille,

But is there any evidence, other than anecdotal, that in the aggregate Sikhs are in gangs more often? And further, when you compound for the varying sizes of different desi demographics, can you really argue on sheer numbers instead of population percentages?

Further, my argument is that there are UNDERLYING FACTORS that contribute to gang violence that are unrelated to one's "race." Examples of underlying factors include, poverty, unemployment, and alienation. Instead of blaming this on the "pathology of Sikhs," I would challenge folks to examine why social issues disproportionately affect Punjabi populations in California (and I say Punjabi since a good number of people who are affected are from many different religions). This would be a conversation that I might find interesting and possibly engaging, not a diatribe on Sikhs.

I doubt that the writings in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji are the cause for Sikh youth feeling alienated from people of other religious backgrounds.

Further, Sikhi does not degrade other religions. I don't find the bolded text condescending, but rather explanatory.

With respect to the eldest son question, I don't have a concrete source for you, but I was told that this was common among SOME Hindu Punjabi families, particularly out in Patiala.

Jai,

Perhaps one of the reasons why Sikhs here have not necessarily objected to the above is because they do not believe there is anything wrong in the concept of a state founded on, and governed according to, Sikh principles and ideals.

However, the precise location of such a hypothetical state (whether in India or anywhere else) and the methods used to achieve the founding of such a nation, are of course entirely different matters.

Beyond a warrior -- literally or figuratively -- is integral to the Sikh ethos.

Camille and Jai
Thank you for the excellent explanations and discussion. Unfortunately, all the Sikhs I've been friends with have not been as educated as you two in regards to the Sikh religion. They have been really misinformed (by who???) about their religion. They do not practice Sikhism although they do wear karras, take pride in being 'warriors' , have khandas on their cars, and are proud to be Sikh. I really am glad to have learned more from the two of you.

Awaazi
The trolling..
AFAIK, the Hindu community is enormous and there are many, many different groups that do not necessarily belong to one organization. I don't understand or pretend to understand what the various groups and their agendas are. If there is a Hindu Community of the US (I really have no idea), then they should definitely denounce any such acts that are done in the name of Hinduism. I, myself, am not a practicing Hindu and I really don't know what values Hinduism entails and I do not identify with the Hindu Community. I do not go to temples, mosques, or gurdwaras. I eat meat (beef and pork too!) and I drink liquor. I go to parties and dance and listen to music and have sex. It upsets me when ANYTHING atrocious is done in the name of ANY religion. I think religion and state should be kept separate. I don't believe in organized religion.

I think the 'hate mongering atavism' is present everywhere, including but not limited to those that are Hindus. 'Hate mongering atavism' transcends more than simply religion. I believe there are scumbags of all religions. The hate mongering atavism and scumbags are typically found in the extreme right and I believe these people need to be kept in check (whether they are Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jews, or whatever). Senseless violence, murder, and rape is absolutely atrocious regardless of religion, race, caste, sex, whatever.

TheKingSingh,

Doesn't it seem like, more often than not, that's what happens on Sikh-related threads? And more often than not, it's those who associate themselves with "open-mindedness" and "fighting the radical extremist Sikh machine" (my paraphrasing) who spur on the abuse and ranting.

Every single damn time.

Hell, last time I even remember accusations such as "communists" and "mafia" being hurled at myself and some of the founder-member Mutineers. Surreal stuff -- it actually makes me laugh now ;)

Ranadhi Savage ,

Like I said above, I think this outlook may have been necessary when the religion began but it isn't now.

Really ? There are huge numbers of people in multiple religions who engage in blind, ritualistic religious practices. This is what the verses you have quoted refer to. Do you seriously think that there is no-one in 2006 who thinks that merely bathing in a river will "purify them of all their sins" ? Do you personally think that undertaking such an action has any genuine spiritual benefit ? If not -- and based on your own post, I don't think you do, and I also suspect that you have logical reasons for not doing so -- then you should understand what is meant by these verses.

I find some of those translations (italicized) are disparaging to Jains or Hindus. Isn't that how some of those translations (italicized) come across?

As Divya once said here on SM (and this is one of the rare occasions on which I completely agree with her), the point is to be "correct", not politically-correct. The translations are in reference to anyone who participates in blind ritualistic religious actions but is a hypocrite in terms of their level of egotism and morality. They are not specifically condemning Jains or Hindus en masse.

Does this mean that none of Sikhs who have posted on this thread believe that there is nothing wrong in the concept of a state founded on, and governed according to, Sikh principles and ideals?

Making assumptions about other people's behaviour is one of the biggest mistakes on can make in life. I'm therefore not going to say that "all" the Sikhs who have posted on this thread believe the above. However, it is logical that a number may well do. If you really do have a grasp of Sikh religious tenets and Sikh history (especially the lives of the 10 Gurus), I don't understand why you would object to the notion of a hypothetical state founded on these ideals. In many aspects, there is little difference between Sikh concepts of human rights and the US Bill of Rights, many aspects of the Declaration of Independence, and the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Bear in mind also that there is no concept of "Shariah Law" or totalitarian theocratic rule in Sikhism, and neither are their any historical precedents for this during the past 500 years. None at all.

Also, can it be that no one other than PJF took issue with the methods used 'pictures of dead people'? I find that a bit scary.

Again, I'm not going to comment on the perceived motivations of other people. However, there is a lot of misinformation, second-hand knowledge and propaganda on both sides regarding the supposed actions of the "dead people in the pictures". I have no interest in triggering any kind of argument here on SM on this issue, although if you want to learn more about it then I suggest you do a 'search' on the Sikhnet Discussion Forum, as the topic has already been extensively discussed and analysed there on multiple occasions.

I don't think this is a good thing. I think the 'warrior attitude' manifests itself in a variety of ways and not necessarily noble.

.....Which is why the warrior aspect is not supposed to be de-coupled from the saintly ideals. The latter acts as a restraint on the former and disciplines the person in terms of the extent, context, and motivations for manifesting & acting on the warrior aspect. Simultaneously, the warrior angle is basically to give the person "some backbone" so that they have the guts to defend themselves from unwarranted attacks (either physical or psychological), to "stand up for what's right", and to defend those who are unable to defend themselves.

They have been really misinformed (by who???) about their religion.

Possibly they haven't necessarily been misinformed by someone else, but have not educated themselves on the matter.

They do not practice Sikhism although they do wear karras, take pride in being 'warriors' , have khandas on their cars, and are proud to be Sikh.

No problem, I'm glad I could help and I'm sure Camille is too.

Since you've already discovered the Sikh.org website (and I strongly suggest you read through all of the section detailing "Biographies of the Gurus" if you really want to gain a proper understanding of what Sikhism is all about), I recommend you also check out Sikhnet. They have a very good discussion forum, with large numbers of good-natured and well-informed people (and they also frequently have very heated debates a la Sepia Mutiny), and the website also has various other resources detailing Sikhism, its history & principles, along with other sections such as an excellent Gurbani archive. You will not understand the genuine message of Sikhism unless you listen to the music -- which will make things significantly clearer, even if you don't understand all the words (my personal recommendations are kirtans by Dya Singh {Australiawale} and Nirmal Singh).

They do not practice Sikhism although they do wear karras, take pride in being 'warriors' , have khandas on their cars, and are proud to be Sikh.

No problem, I'm glad I could help and I'm sure Camille is too.

Apologies, my comment above was supposed to be in response to "I really am glad to have learned more from the two of you."

(Copy & Paste error on my part).

Jai (121#),

Please do not take offense when I say that I find idea of dividing India again on basis of religion abhorrent.
Again I do not know about what is the current opinion in expat Sikh community but I doubt you will find many supporters among Indian Sikhs.When terrorism in Punjab was at its peak at that time not only Hindus but also many Sikhs had to bear the brunt.
I desisted from commenting on this thread because for some reason, I have found that similar threads in past were closed, however I have always found you reasonable and so had to comment.

Regards

Again,

I do not regularly follow the issue, so I am not aware of the back story,
but I think PJF was reasonable and ad hominem attacks on him (her ?) were uncalled for.

Regards

Gaurav,

Please do not take offense when I say that I find idea of dividing India again on basis of religion abhorrent.

I understand your point of view, but please note something I said in my post #115:

"However, the precise location of such a hypothetical state (whether in India or anywhere else) and the methods used to achieve the founding of such a nation, are of course entirely different matters."

As you can see from my comment above, I do not necessarily believe in the viability of locating the country within the Indian subcontinent, at least due to the land-locked location it would exist in and its small size (not to mention the fact that it would possibly be surrounded by semi-hostile neighbours). These factors would also hardly be condusive to enabling the nation to act internationally on a humanitarian and military level (the latter with regards to situations such as Rwanda, Darfur, and other cases of genocide, persecution, human rights abuses etc worldwide) as per the core principles of Sikhism.

There is also a difference between a state governed by Sikh principles and one exclusively for Sikhs. The latter is incompatible with Sikhism -- it is not an "exclusivist" faith in the religious sense, and in any case Sikhs (whilst maintaining their unique identity) are supposed to live peacefully amongst the rest of mankind and are not supposed to regard themselves as literally "separate" or "superior". Indeed, Sikhs are supposed to live, work and exist for the wellbeing of the entire human race, not just for their fellow Sikhs.

This is embodied by the last verse of a well-known "Ardas", which basically translates as "Wishing goodwill to all mankind" ("Sarbat da bhala"). Please note that it does not request divine blessings just for Sikhs.

In any case, we are just doing some independent "armchair strategic theorising" here and none of this necessarily has anything to do with past or present secessionist groups, who may not be motivated by intentions actually in line with Sikh ideals and, indeed, may not be using Sikhism-compatible methods either.

Jai:

Very well put. Just a word on Sikhnet...it's really gone downhill the past several months...far fewer posts, fewer responses, basically a small handful of regular posters (although the readership may still be large). I wonder if this was a consequence of over-regulation by the moderators. Anytime a discussion got interesting they would start shutting it down. About two years ago it was a pleasure to read Sikhnet discussion forum. I still check it every 1-2 days, but far less than I read this blog now.

Amitabh,

I've dropped by Sikhnet as a "lurker" once or twice recently but am no longer a "regular". I agree about the change in overall tone there (especially compared to how it used to be), but I don't know if the reason is over-moderation. As you know, one of the major reasons for my own exit from the forum was the fact that it was being repeatedly hijacked by some excessively conservative types who, I felt, were very good at arguing in intricate, convoluted (or plain stubborn) ways but did not have a grasp of the "spirit" of the faith, despite the fact that some of them have an excellent academic knowledge of scriptural quotes etc.

I think that the forum used to be much better -- and certainly more broadminded -- during the days of Dr Yuktanand Singh and Ek Ong Kaar Kaur Khalsa, although I do recall individuals such as Harpreet Singh Sandhu (an amazingly intelligent and insightful gentleman in his mid-60s from the US) valiantly attempting to counteract the efforts of his obstinately-conservative older-generation counterparts during the past year or two (with varying degrees of success).

I guess anyone interested in finding out what Sikhnet used to be like could do a 'search' there and read some of the older posts from more enlightened times ;)

However, it is still an excellent resource for gurbani kirtan, summaries of Sikh history and religious tenets etc.

This is the first time that I went to this website and notice serious arguments, almost about everything (khalistan, gangs, mayor wearing turbun, and millions of other issues)some good and a lot of them without much of an outcome. You will never ever resolve some of these issues, except that it is entertaining and amusing. If you all honestly follow Guru's advice and follow with self control on the 5 Super Evils (Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh, Hankaar) only by 5-10 percent, you all will be very happy being and there will be no fights, arguments. Look inward and control the forces rather than trying to control external forces-of which you have no chance. You do not need to read the whole GGS, but if you can, then it will certainly do you good. Religion is to be practiced within self, its very personal way of life.

Wow I forget about this post. I posted as PearlJamFan at the time and I was attacked again and again for my views about punjabi culture.

It's a year and half later and to my fellow punjabi I'm sorry. I've have seen the light, and that we punjabi's are the master race. All hail our culture and race.

lol@clueless!!! :))