minority appeasement. Cangressi sthyle.

this is a very serious issue and a joke of a judgement. what did the liberal brit media make of it all?

what bulls*it!

people in the desh don't know not to violently shake a baby? that's crap. this just further perpetuates the wild barbarians perception people have of those not from the "advanced" west

I have to wonder what kind of precedent this sets as a "culturally-relative" defence against other crimes?

I have to wonder what kind of precedent this sets as a "culturally-relative" defence against other crimes?

Just the usual appeasements for "honor killings", "offensive cartoons", school uniforms, banning toy pigs on people's desks at the workplace. Nothing special...

This is crazy! The judge is saying that not shaking babies is a Western thing, unknown to the barbarians from the East; and that cultural differences are sufficient excuse for this kind of thing. The only thing in her defence could be that her husband-imposed isolation led her not to know where to turn for help.

The court was told that Khanom, a Muslim, did not understand that shaking a helpless baby would not exorcise an evil spirit

I like how the reporter took it a step further and felt the need to include Muslim in the same sentence that 'exorcise an evil spirit' is written. (rolling eyes) Way to go on perpetuating. It's so sad, shaking a baby to the point of disability is never ok...

I'd like to think the same wouldn't fly in the U.S. - any thoughts?

This is almost bad as the excuse that muslims men in europe and australia use for all there rapes of local women. They say that the way women dress they got what the had coming. And of course the idiot liberal media try to bring up excuses for their behavior.

Could someone explain to me why Europe let into many backward muslims from places like Pakistan, bangdelash, and some of the backward arab conutries just cause they needed cheap labor. They are over billion people in China and over 900 million non-muslims in india who would have loved the chance to live in the west. And they would have being doing many of the stupid things that the educated muslims do.

I like how the reporter took it a step further and felt the need to include Muslim in the same sentence that 'exorcise an evil spirit' is written.

like they say, the most harmful racists you will encounter nowadays are unlikely to be the neo-nazi types, but the ones who are closeted racists but pretend to be sensitive.

I like how the reporter took it a step further and felt the need to include Muslim in the same sentence that 'exorcise an evil spirit' is written.

It's because some Muslims here in the UK have specifically religiously-derived reasons for believing in possessions by evil spirits.

I like how the reporter took it a step further and felt the need to include Muslim in the same sentence that 'exorcise an evil spirit' is written. (rolling eyes) Way to go on perpetuating. It's so sad, shaking a baby to the point of disability is never ok...

It's because some Muslims here in the UK have specifically religiously-derived reasons for believing in possessions by evil spirits.

Jai, as far as I can see all beliefs in possession by evil spirits is religiously inspired, and is not exclusively Muslim,or bangladeshi.

Foxy,

Probably correct, but the point is that in this case the belief is specifically being derived from the person's interpretation of Islam.

If this had also occurred amongst (random example) an evangelical Christian woman, who held this belief specifically because of her perspective of Christianity, the media would have mentioned her religious affiliation too.

The woman's religious background, and her interpretation of her religion (rightly or wrongly), was the direct reason for her actions. I don't see the controversy here with regards to mentioning this -- it's just stating a fact.

Hmmm. I'm not sure if such a black-and-white picture is really conducive. We had the same debate on this incident here. The article also mentions the severe stress she was under, having been brought over from Bangladesh and being ignored by her husband.

The judge foolishly attributed this to cultural differences, but should have used his brain a bit more to explore whether she was just blaming djinns in her baby instead of her husband, who maybe the real culprit in all this.

If this had also occurred amongst (random example) an evangelical Christian woman, who held this belief specifically because of her perspective of Christianity, the media would have mentioned her religious affiliation too.

The woman's religious background, and her interpretation of her religion (rightly or wrongly), was the direct reason for her actions. I don't see the controversy here with regards to mentioning this -- it's just stating a fact.

I concur. If the woman were Hindu, Christian or Wiccan, they would've mentioned that in the news story. I don't think it's "perpetuating".

The woman's religious background, and her interpretation of her religion (rightly or wrongly), was the direct reason for her actions.

That is exactly what government officials in Amsterdam also feel now. Maybe somebody is finally realizing that these "culturally sensitive" ideas of the past have led to the current situation in Europe:

Amsterdam Mulls Axing Dole for Women in Burqas

An official in Holland's biggest city wants to introduce legislation that would ban unemployed women who wear a burqa from receiving welfare payments if it prevents them from finding a job. The issue is the latest Dutch soul-searching over its relations with its own immigrants.Link

I concur. If the woman were Hindu, Christian or Wiccan, they would've mentioned that in the news story. I don't think it's "perpetuating".

I dunno if it's perpetuating a specific (Muslim) prejudice, but a "cultural sensistivity" can be (and is) deployed to perpetuate injustices in minority communities, and the image of minorities as "wild barbarians"

Another instance of idiocy related to sensitivity:
A canadian judge gives a (south asian, muslim) man a lesser sentance for sodomizing his step? daughter - he was showing "cultural sensitiviy" in not raping her (because of the stigma attached in the community). Completely wrong! The baby shaking is very sad, and falls in the same category.

and Vikram, the thing in Amsterdam - women in some countries that have legalized prostitution are having trouble getting unemployment/welfare, if they refuse to enter into what are now "legitimate" sex-related occupations. Not sure about specifics, but idiocy in the same line as you've mentioned.

Cultural defense is indeed used and successful in the US. Usually to justify battering and wife-killing and letting murderers get away with manslaughter, or rapist get off because 'the Hmong culture practices marriage-by-capture.' Recently, cultural defense was raised by guy the Hmong immigrant in Wisconsin who killed six hunters -- but he was found guilty. In 1991, a Chinese mother killed her son because he was born out of wedlock and unwanted by the father. The court cites expert testimony that she believed "that she was not exactly killing but, through death, both of them would be reunited in the next world where she could provide the kind of caring he didn't get in this world." She ultimately won a reduced charge of manslaughter and a mitigated sentance.

In the present case, of the Bangladeshi mother, and in the 1991 US -- rather than look to 'culture', the courts ought to look at the subjective mental state of being all alone having to take care of a child in an isolated environment -- this need not depend on 'culture.'

I agree with all here that cultural defense is ridiculous -- it assumes cultures are stagnant and would fall apart at the slightest touch of any outside critique. Cultural defense is used in the same way 'temporary insanity' and 'heat of passion' defenses are used -- and while it pretends to show sensitivity to minority cultures, its really condescending and patronizing.

I'm sick of immigrants who refuse to intergate into there new country and I'm glad to see what Holland is doing with its backward newcomers.

Can anyone else tell me why these backward muslim problems don't happen in the U.S as they do in Europe.

Being of punjabi sikh background I have seen some of the same problems, but not to the level as muslims. Yet I have no problem speaking out against the backward people in my community, I just wished the so-called moderate muslims what do the same.

I have a great idea for an educational campaign:

Ladies, when your babies are crying, it's because they need a tonic, not because they have a djinn! Remember, babies are better stirred, not shaken.

Christian Scientists have been around for a long time:

In May a young Christian Science couple pleaded Innocent in a Boston courtroom to charges of manslaughter in the death of their two-year-old son. Ginger and David Twitchell had sought to treat their son’s bowel obstruction through spiritual means. The case may not go to trial, for the Twitchells’ conduct appears to fall under a Massachusetts statute that, according to an attorney general for the Commonwealth, "expressly precludes imposition of criminal liability as a negligent parent for failure to provide medical care because of religious beliefs." The district attorney can prosecute the couple only by finding a way around this statute. [Link]

Lots of other groups do the same, and are similarly protected:

Shielded by state laws that are among the most liberal in the nation at protecting faith-healing parents, the Oregon City Followers of Christ Church has amassed one of the largest clusters of child deaths recorded among the nation's spiritual-healing churches. More than a fourth of the nearly 100 child and maternal deaths in the past 30 years among the Followers of Christ in Oregon, Oklahoma and Idaho were probably preventable with routine medical care. Dozens more probably could have been prevented, medical experts say, but spotty death investigations make the total impossible to determine. [Link]

PearlJamFan --

I could be wrong, but this baby-shaking was just one incident of such happenings in the muslim/bangladeshi community -- my previous post gave several examples of similar problems in other immigrant communities. And I'm sure you've heard of new borns left in garbages by AMERICANS.

so cool down that racism just a tad.

Remember, babies are better stirred, not shaken.

Expressa -

Yes there a several cases of problems in other communites. But just you can't tell me that the problems of muslims living in the west are the same as other races.

I'm looking for some examples - there are multiple cases of White American Christians beating children to drive out demons in them. It happens all around.

I like how the reporter took it a step further and felt the need to include Muslim in the same sentence that 'exorcise an evil spirit' is written.

like they say, the most harmful racists you will encounter nowadays are unlikely to be the neo-nazi types, but the ones who are closeted racists but pretend to be sensitive.

I think it's human interest to know the details of the story that they are reading.

But I would have thought that metioning that she was Bangladeshi would have been more racist, since 'muslim' is not a race.

I completely agree with PearlJamFan. People need to assimilate or go back to their original country. Keeping your culture is one thing, but to refuse to show your face for an ID? Stuff like that is ridiculous. The religion excuse is the worst thing in the world. How many times I've heard of people commiting horrible acts of violence because it's their "relidion." In my country law comes first!

PearlJamFan,

If you're referrring to cartoons or headscarves or terrorism -- whole 'nother topic. I don't want to rehash it here but these are a sample of my general sentiments about the cartoons. Other than those, and the racism that spins off, I think yes, the problems of muslims are indeed similar to those of other groups.

@ 26
But I would have thought that metioning that she was Bangladeshi would have been more racist, since 'muslim' is not a race.

well, neither is Bangladeshi, really. We're an ethnicity. In fact, race isnt really anything --- other than an artificial way to lump together groups of people to disparage them efficiently, conveniently. So, given this common purpose, both Muslims and Bangladeshis can be subject to racism, i'd say.

@ 6

It's so sad, shaking a baby to the point of disability is never ok...

i really doubt disabling the baby was the mother's intent. American law looks very heavily at intent, especially for homicide, if the requisite mental state isn't there, you can't be convicted of the crime. i htink its entirely possible that a woman was so distraught that she didn't realize her actions were harmful to her child. the problem is suggesting this lack of awareness is inherent in a culture.

Remember, babies are better stirred, not shaken.

funny

soooooooooooooooooooooooo not funny.

I'm looking for some examples - there are multiple cases of White American Christians beating children to drive out demons in them. It happens all around.

I dont think any one can sell this to the mainstream white culture resorting to spirits.
Tony Robbins does the same but he uses a different sales pitch. ie you will be athletic
and rich if you are just motivated enough.

But TR does not advertise on US channels during prime time, its late night infomercial
while ajmeri and others have small advertisements direct it towards housewives.
They also have small advertisement in print

These things exist cause there is a market for these things in different societies.
The market is the sucker who buys it.

soooooooooooooooooooooooo not funny.

But I would have thought that metioning that she was Bangladeshi would have been more racist, since 'muslim' is not a race.

But i have not seen a white dude on TV offering to get rid of evil spirits.

75% of the American public believe in Angels. You don't see such TV ads b/c the mainstream believes mainly in good spirits not bad.

and Vikram, the thing in Amsterdam - women in some countries that have legalized prostitution are having trouble getting unemployment/welfare, if they refuse to enter into what are now "legitimate" sex-related occupations. Not sure about specifics, but idiocy in the same line as you've mentioned.

I remember reading about that. Though am curious if the government forced any non-Christian/non-Atheist women into taking up a sex-related profession, since they(the govt) wouldn't have to fear reprisals from those groups... cultural relativism again I think.

75% of the American public believe in Angels. You don't see such TV ads b/c the mainstream believes mainly in good spirits not bad.

soooooooooooooooooooooooo not funny.

shake it off

that was funny.

clearly, this problem is not unique to Bangladeshis, Muslims, immigrants... "In America every year an estimated 1,200 - 1,400 children are shaken for whom treatment is sought." www.dontshake.com

The moral of this story is that if you are an atheist or belong to a rational faith, you are SOL if you have to appear in court for any offense, as you do not have any kind of a religious excuse or crutch to fall back onto to get acquitted/excused. I wonder what the courts would do if somebody could come up with some obscure religious clause that prohibits them from paying taxes ? Now that might be an interesting experiment.

The moral of this story is that if you are an atheist or belong to a rational faith, you are SOL if you have to appear in court for any offense, as you do not have any kind of a religious excuse or crutch to fall back onto to get acquitted/excused. I wonder what the courts would do if somebody could come up with some obscure religious clause that prohibits them from paying taxes ? Now that might be an interesting experiment

you are looking to "pentecostal" if you want to know about americans who accept lot of the demon possession bullshit. i didn't say white because the cases i know of involved black american women, the case i recall is a woman who thought she was possessed by satan, so her "friend" gouged eyes out. the stories i saw reported went into detail about the pentecostal beliefs to explain what happened her (the woman without the eyes didn't want to press charges, the moron actually thought a demon had possessed her and the lack of eyes helped somehow).

Are there any pentacostals in south india or NE?

Jai, as far as I can see all beliefs in possession by evil spirits is religiously inspired, and is not exclusively Muslim,or bangladeshi.

seriously...my garndmu was catholic, and brought up by her roma auntie, and man....you wnat some wierd beliefs.....it's more what family has tough, or ertain parts of society than a certain faith or place.

I'm looking for some examples - there are multiple cases of White American Christians beating children to drive out demons in them. It happens all around.

and the minority appeasement thing also goes all over. heck, look at the food shelves in the gorcery store. you see two laungues on a lot fo stuff...if you're lucky, 3.....that's a real stretch...

re: primitive barbarians. many of the earlier immigrant groups were superstitious primitives when they came to modern countries. the key was that primitivity was not tolerated and it was slowly squeezed to death by assimilation to the mainstream culture. i'm not sure that's totally true today. if the numbers of immigrant groups are small enough they still be swallowed...the problem is with an alternative cultural matrix emerges and is accepted by the mainstream. in the USA the amish, and christian scientists are examples. they basically get a "pass" from the legal authorities (christian scientists via legal sanction, amish through benign neglect) when it comes to issues that would rise to criminality in the case of other groups. but, both groups are not very numerous.

as for the comment about muslims in europe vs. USA, muslims in the USA skew toward being educated, and, they are ethnically diverse (that is, one ethnicity does not = muslim). in europe many of the nations have a dominant muslim ethnicities (eg., arab in france, turk in germany, pakistani in norway and 'asian' in the UK) which results in a coopting of ethnic and religious ties in the interests of group cohesion, and, they aren't selection biased as strongly for education.

Razib - most of the faith healing xtians I've met have been white. They go to Africa, tell people not to take their anti-biotics if they have TB, or their AV if they have AIDS (I've walked right by them), because God will heal them but only if they believe. They also believe in what is known as the prosperity ministry, a literal interpretation of the bible passage that says "give and ye shall receive tenfold". It's not a small movement either. If you live in a red state, you see it more often than if you are in a blue state.

Razib - most of the faith healing xtians I've met have been white.

sure, the majority are white. but a large minority are not. the charismatic movement started out in the black american community and spread to the white community. i'm just pointing this out because when people say "white american" it seems to imply that trailer-trash magico-christianity is just limited to dumb crackers, when this is a strong commonality between lower class whites and blacks.

this isn't about race, it's about primitive beliefs in the modern world.

And it's not just some fringe group - I have heard main stream evangelicals defend it on the radio. I wish I remembered the names more, but at the level of the oral roberts of the world ... yes, he may be fringe to you, but not to America.

Gulab, you can find plenty of endorsement for superstitious nonsense in the mainstream American media; there was Miss Cleo hawking her spiritual powers on late-night cable TV a couple of years ago, and 'psychics' Sylvia Browne and John Edward are regularly invited onto daytime talk-shows. If anything, this sort of bullshit is should be less excusable in the most powerful and prosperous country in the world than it is on the Indian subcontinent; the denizens of the latter at least have the excuse of poverty and lack of education.

"The number of people who beleive in superstition/supernatural is much less in white american culture sure you will be able to dig out some such stuff but walk around accross india and pakistan you see a different picture."

the claim can be made that all religions amount to a belief in superstition, so all religious societies (and America is one) are inherently superstitious. when it results in harm (and i know many atheists who think any belief in religion means you're mentally unbalanced and doing yourself harm), then it's a problem.

I do feel that its possible that the woman was totaly clueless.
Most women dont want to kill their babies...
This is why i dont think one should interpret this ruling as law doesnt apply to you if youre a bangladeshi.
I think most cases where a mother accidentaly kills her child are where people make deals....
Its not like she was on drugs and baby cried and she threw it accross the floor or something
the worst case is she was criminaly negligent and probably on the stupid side of general intelligence, and the judge gave her a pass.

In march i got a ticket unfairly and went to the court demanding trial(the prosecutor offered a no point ticket w/ a 450 fine i refused
and he was shocked...apparently every one goes their for pleabargain).
But i noticed 4 plea bargains were done for drunk driving, none for a desi dude,
but if a desi dude got such a bargain is it law doesnt apply cause you are indian....
I am not a lawyer but any lawyers who have seen NJ courts please speak up...
I was surprised to learn that a prosecutor does not even listen to what your situation was and immediately as you walk in offers
a no point ticket... Is that a delran township thing only or all accross NJ
This is my only run in w/ the law.
Whats the situation on the other side of atlantic.

when this is a strong commonality between lower class whites and blacks.

the claim can be made that all religions amount to a belief in superstition, so all religious societies (and America is one) are inherently superstitious. when it results in harm (and i know many atheists who think any belief in religion means you're mentally unbalanced and doing yourself harm), then it's a problem.

So when the President of the United States makes major foreign policy decisions based on prayer AND America doesn't think its a problem ...

"So when the President of the United States makes major foreign policy decisions based on prayer AND America doesn't think its a problem ..."

given the resultant harm, one would think that's problematic.

Gulab, you can find plenty of endorsement for superstitious nonsense in the mainstream American media; there was Miss Cleo hawking her spiritual powers on late-night cable TV a couple of years ago, and 'psychics' Sylvia Browne and John Edward are regularly invited onto daytime talk-shows. If anything, this sort of bullshit is should be less excusable in the most powerful and prosperous country in the world than it is on the Indian subcontinent; the denizens of the latter at least have the excuse of poverty and lack of education.

From the article:

Khanom, from Poplar, East London, said that she had wanted to purge the baby of evil spirits as it cried and cried. She was not found to be mentally ill...

i can almost hear my Nani yelling at me when i was 8 and running around like a crazed monkey: "kee jinn thoresey!" (apologies for bad transliteration.) I wonder how much of the woman's story was twisted by language barriers. Even if you translate the words correctly, you often miss the essense. My Nani didn't really believe I was possessed (I think), but thats a common expression for general frustrations.

He said: “You are a young lady who came from Bangladesh. You lived there in a rural community, adopting the customs and ways of the people there so that getting to know the ways of living in the West and in this country were not easy.

“I accept you were kept really quite isolated from our society by your community and it would seem to a large extent by your husband as well. Under these circumstances I do not feel it is in the public interest to pass an immediate custodial sentence.”

this actually makes a lot of sense. in rural Bangladesh, the village raises the child. a frustrated mother would have help from the neighboring mud hut (i LOVE the mud huts) to calm down a crying child. Suddenly, she's alone in the UK with no help.

The title of the article in Leniency for 'ignorant' woman who hurt baby. Except for the "...Khanom, a Muslim, did not understand..." I think the article is fair. I also think the court's verdict is fair.

you can find plenty of endorsement for superstitious nonsense in the mainstream American media; there was Miss Cleo hawking her spiritual powers on late-night cable TV a couple of years ago, and 'psychics' Sylvia Browne and John Edward are regularly invited onto daytime talk-shows.

Yes, and you also can find people lampooning such nonsense, (Christian) religious figures, American symbols and presidents and not being threatened by death too.

'South Park' Creators Skewer Own Network

By DAVID BAUDER
The Associated Press
Thursday, April 13, 2006; 6:14 PM

NEW YORK -- Banned by Comedy Central from showing an image of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, the creators of "South Park" skewered their own network for hypocrisy in the cartoon's most recent episode.

The comedy _ in an episode aired during Holy Week for Christians _ instead featured an image of Jesus Christ defecating on President Bush and the American flag.Link

The title of the article in Leniency for 'ignorant' woman who hurt baby. Except for the "...Khanom, a Muslim, did not understand..." I think the article is fair. I also think the court's verdict is fair.

Hey, didn't Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] talk to Djinns and Fairies ?
If I recall my hadiths correctly, he even said the Djinns sleep in our nostrils at night.

pearljamfan
i have a problem with you addressing these people as 'backwards'.
backwards in relation to what?
just because you come to live in a country different from your country of origin, does not mean that you need to denounce where you've come from. i agree that many people try not to assimilate and the ghettoization of communitites really contributes to this. hell i get mad when people come into my job and try and speak to me in _____ because they see brown skin or try and get a deal out of me for the same reason. but using the word 'backwards' feels really offensive because it seems to imply that you, or the west, is somehow better than these people.

there was Miss Cleo hawking her spiritual powers on late-night cable TV a couple of years ago, and 'psychics' Sylvia Browne and John Edward are regularly invited onto daytime talk-shows.

lmao! omg.....my mum loved john edwards for awhile..she actually believed him. and my grandmum was for sylvia...what a luagh...

Apuna

I'm sorry for calling people backward, but it due to years of frustration at some immigrants who are take pride in being backwards. These people give the whole community are bad name.

And yes this might upset some people the culture of the west is better then other parts of the world. Yes we in west have our faults, but I still would not ever want to live in a non-western country.

re: superstition & religion, there are shades & grades here. the early christians campaigned against "soothsayers" and "oracles" because they opposed such magic (manifestations of demons, etc.). most american doctors are christian, but they don't agree with the older ideas promoted by christianity which derive from galen and the greeks about the cause of disease. some christians believe the "time of miracles" is over, while others do not. some buddhists are agnostics whose non-materialism seems a matter of semantics, while other buddhists (the term is usually 'folk buddhists') are believers in magic and godlings.

in other words, there is a lot of diversity in religion. as an atheist i think the whole lot of it is silly, that being said, i do have personally silly beliefs too. the key is not to let the silly beliefs get in the way of proper functioning in a 'modern' society. my personal experience is that many 'modern' religionists believe in silly things, but nicely partition the silly implications away from their day-to-day activities. some of the silliness does bleed over, we just spend $2.6 million here in the united states to see if 'prayer' aids in recovery from illness (statistically it doesn't, though that doesn't stop people's belief in prayer). this was a stupid waste of money, but since most people are religious and believe in such silly things it is a compromise that those of us who aren't believers in such things have to accept.

the key, for thorough materialists is to forward the constraint of silliness to manageable portions. muslim fundamentalists are silly beyond compare, they will kill you if you reject their own view of silliness. evangelical christians aren't as bad, they'll just talk silly shit at you constantly and divert funds that should go to real research, or help egg on foreign wars over silly impulses (though some economic interests are necessary), at least in the USA, but won't threaten death. some religionists espouse silly beliefs, but rarely seem to act silly in their normal activities, so i don't really care about this sort.

the problem with many third world religionists, especially muslims, is that the religion's balls haven't been cut off yet by an enlightenment. another key is that religionists need to think that the balls getting cut off is how it should have been. see, it is great that modern christians, in the majority, think that freedom of religion was the true christian way, that killing in the name of god is a no-no, and equal rights for women, at least legally up to voting and etc., is the true christian way. just ignore 2,000 years of history (*wink*). just got to get muslims on board with thinking that allah really wants you to be a liberal democrat.

my personal experience is that many 'modern' religionists believe in silly things, but nicely partition the silly implications away from their day-to-day activities.

to see if 'prayer' aids in recovery from illness (statistically it doesn't, though that doesn't stop people's belief in prayer).

question. don't general 'good thoughts' have psychosomatic effects? if so, isn't prayer a type/vehicle for such thoughts? and if so, how do you separate general 'good thoughts' from religiously inspired/prayer-like good thoughts in any statistically testable way?

Ignorance of the Law is no Defense unless...Issues
unless you’re a Bangladeshi Muslim Woman in the UK.

Is there a relation here with the fact that she was a Muslim and the incident. Would it have been any different if she was a rural christian woman from Bangladesh? One would imagine the SM bloggers would not make such gratuitous references to Muslims. Of course that would be expecting too much from people who usually pick up their stories from LGF or fuckmuslims.com.

Of course that would be expecting too much from people who usually pick up their stories from LGF or fuckmuslims.com.

is it really AMfD or has sumone else co-opted that id?

fuckmuslims.com.

this redirects to a place holder site with the title "Adult Shopping."

question. don't general 'good thoughts' have psychosomatic effects? if so, isn't prayer a type/vehicle for such thoughts? and if so, how do you separate general 'good thoughts' from religiously inspired/prayer-like good thoughts in any statistically testable way?

the key is that they were looking at the effects of prayer from person A to person B, when B didn't know that A was praying for them, and A didn't know who B was (except their name or something dumb like that). i believe the current study showed that people who had strangers pray for them were actually more likely to be ill. i guess god was pissed (there seems to be a study like this every 5 years).

ha!

so.. you would concede that praying for a loved one, the way many of us do, might possibly be effective? perhaps even to the degree of statistical significance?

you would concede that praying for a loved one, the way many of us do, might possibly be effective?

if they know you are praying for them, yes. prayer as a factor in psychosomaticism seems fine, prayer as god-vibrations emenating from a big dude in a sky who listens to everything and sees everything seems rather silly though :) but we'll keep spending money every few years to check on it i'm sure.

fuckmuslims.com.

this redirects to a place holder site with the title "Adult Shopping."

just got to get muslims on board with thinking that allah really wants you to be a liberal democrat.

LOL.. that seems to be the ideal solution to avoid a lot of bloodshed. Invent some hadith (like the latest Judas gospel) saying so.. I know hadiths carry less weightage than Quran, but worth the effort..

LOL.. that seems to be the ideal solution to avoid a lot of bloodshed. Invent some hadith (like the latest Judas gospel) saying so.. I know hadiths carry less weightage than Quran, but worth the effort..

i'm being serious. i'm pretty convinced people have a cognitive bias to believe in supernatural agents. so, if they are going to believe in them no matter what (repeated experiments which have shown prayer doesn't work doesn't convince them in the lower p value of supernatural agents), just make sure they believe that these agents want them to be people who are nice to atheists :) i think a pretty plain reading of most religous texts implies that one has to do pretty fucked up shit. i mean, theodicy anyone!?!?! but who cares, most people don't get that far, they just believe, so take life as it comes.

I don't think anybody talked about this. But this was another example of a muslim women being kept locked up by husband after she came to west.

The good new is that in europe now several of the countries with a backward muslim problem are now making it harder for these kind of marriages to happen now with there new immigration policy. All I have to say it's about time.

Unless you're a Bangladeshi Muslim Woman in the UK.

Ullom, a former Army staff sergeant who served in Iraq, took responsibility Thursday for shaking his son Christian Norris so violently that the child was blind and never walked or talked in the 2 1/2 years he survived afterward. Judge William C. Gore Jr. ordered Ullom, 25, to pay for the funeral and added a year to the probation Ullom is already serving for abusing Christian. Gore did not want to send Ullom to jail.

"Some people will look at your defendant as a baby killer; others will say he is the authentic American hero," Gore, a Superior Court judge from Columbus County, said to Ullom's attorney. "At this point, this far removed from the actual act ... it appears to not be in the interest of justice to put him in prison."

MANY baby shakers get lenient sentences.

A News & Observer investigation last year found that many baby shakers escape jail time. Statewide, 40 percent of those who shook babies to death from 1999 through 2003 never went to prison. Of the 44 babies who died of shaken baby syndrome during those years, five, like Christian, succumbed to their injuries months or years after the shaking.

But we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a good savage immigrant bashing festival.

The main reason why people shake babies is because they just want them to stop crying. It's a problem in ALL socities, not just primitive ones. It's amusing that when Westerners shake their babies to death or disability it is because they are suffering from post natal depression and just want their baby to stop crying. But when Eastern woman do the same it is because they are stupid, inferior savages and primitive barbarians who aren't assimilating.

Anyhow, maybe the main reason why the judge was lenient in this case was because:

“On the last occasion the prosecution accepted that the child was doing well and thankfully had passed the developmental milestones expected of him.”

I don't think anybody talked about this. But this was another example of a muslim women being kept locked up by husband after she came to west.

The judge make mistake on by going easy on her. All this will do is encourage more backward muslims to remain backward.

Lots of folks seem to be missing the point here. Although pointing out that she was a "Bangladeshi Muslim" may have been a harmless detail to provide texture to a story, we have to read between the lines a bit. Were the woman Christian, the article would not have simply referred to the woman as a "Christian woman," but rather would have pointed to a particular sect and likely have called her a "fanatic" and "fundamentalist," thus separating her from the majority of sane Christians. The article did not call her an aberration amongst Muslims, but rather simply referred to her as "Muslim". Taken in light of a general climate of hostility towards Muslims, the implication here is that it is typical practice in the Bangladeshi Muslim community to shake babies vigorously to rid them of evil spirits. I think it's important for Christians to own up to the element of privilege and power that comes with being Christian in this country.

Kate Bex, for the defence, told the court that Khanom’s religious and cultural beliefs had led to her shaking the child.

if the defense set the tone, is the article really to blame?

in ilight of general climate of hostitily towards muslims

Can you really blame the british, I think the muslims have to take alot of blame for that and in rest of europe for so called islamophobia

PearlJamFan:

The judge make mistake on by going easy on her. All this will do is encourage more backward muslims to remain backward.

Espressa - I had the same feeling when reading the article.

is it really AMfD or has sumone else co-opted that id?

Well, LGF could very well be called f***muslims.com. I think the opening line in this article is symbolic of the visceral dislike some on SM hold for all Muslims. Nothing gets them more excited than to see some Muslim involved in some crime/wrong doing before their start beating their collective chests in mass hysteria over dhimmitude, pc, multiculturalism and lament over the oh so liberal laws which give equal protection to everybody.

This is almost bad as the excuse that muslims men in europe and australia use for all there rapes of local women. They say that the way women dress they got what the had coming. And of course the idiot liberal media try to bring up excuses for their behavior.

Could you give us some examples of the idiot liberal media making excuses for the Muslims hordes raping all those White women in Europe.

There's no need for the judge to base a lenient sentencing on the grounds of cultural relativism. The more relevant circumstances have to do with the woman's isolated living condition.

The article did not call her an aberration amongst Muslims, but rather simply referred to her as "Muslim". Taken in light of a general climate of hostility towards Muslims, the implication here is that it is typical practice in the Bangladeshi Muslim community to shake babies vigorously to rid them of evil spirits. I think it's important for Christians to own up to the element of privilege and power that comes with being Christian in this country.

MANY baby shakers get lenient sentences.

(repeated experiments which have shown prayer doesn't work doesn't convince them in the lower p value of supernatural agents)

example of liberal media protecting the muslim rape of white women in europe

here it is ">http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20552

i actually think Red's take and Areem's, even Deepa's partial agreement are problematic. If we, minority communities, will use culture as a defense, we have to be willing to deal with the consequences. the fault rests not with the judge or the reporter, but with the defense attorney.

PearlJamFan --- are you serriiouussllyy citing a David Horowitz resource?!?!?!?!? you just lost the slightest drop of credibility i was anxiously holding out for you.

Sorry the link didn't work.

Then just go to yahoo.com and type in Muslim rape in europe and its the 1 search result titled Frontpagemagazine.com Muslim rape wave in Sweden by Fjordman

If we, minority communities, will use culture as a defense, we have to be willing to deal with the consequences.

I'm saying that we shouldn't be using culture as a defense.

Pearljam:

The article you posted from frontpagemagazine.com does not lend any support to your earlier assertion that 'And of course the idiot liberal media try to bring up excuses for their behavior'. I would love to see some examples of the liberal media rape enabling.

Also from the brilliant article (which by the way is not an example of what I requested) which you posted, I found this paragraph interesting.

Muhammad himself had forced sex (rape) with several of his slave girls/concubines. This is perfectly allowed, both in the sunna and in the Koran. If you postulate that many of the Muslims in Europe view themselves as a conquering army and that European women are simply war booty, it all makes perfect sense and is in full accordance with Islamic law. Western women are not so much regarded by most Muslims as individuals, but as "their women," the women who "belong" to hostile Infidels. They are booty, to be taken, just as the land of the Infidels someday will drop, it is believed, into Muslim hand. This is not mere crime, but ideologically-justified crime or rather, in Muslim eyes, attacks on Infidels scarcely qualify as crime. Western women are cheap and offensive. We Muslims are here, here to stay, and we have a right to take advantage of this situation. It is our view of the matter that should prevail. Western goods, like the land on which we now live, belong to Allah and to the best of men -- his Believers. Western women, too, essentially belong to us -- our future booty

(1) I am presuming you subscribe to the view stated above.
Maybe you could disabuse me of such a presumption, though I am pretty sure you are in complete agreement.

(2) Also I am still waiting on examples for your assertion of the liberal media bringing up excuses for the rapes of European women by Muslim men.

agreed... but in this instance, we did.

Well in that article the women was raped by somali muslim immigrants, yet the swedish medie reported it has 2 men from Sweden, 1 men from Somlia and 1 men from Finland. That was media protected the rapist from there true identy from coming out.

agreed... but in this instance, we did.

I see...yeah, I agree with you that the defense attorney (with or without the client's collusion) is the one who chose to shape the defense this way.

So when you made the assertion that 'And of course the idiot liberal media try to bring up excuses for their behavior', the reason behind this assertion was the fact that you had once read an unsourced assertion in that beacon of objectivity aka frontpagemagazine.com that an unnamed Swedish newspaper had allegedly incorrectly identified the nationalists of 3 of rapists and so from that you obviously extrapolated to the liberal media trying to bring up excuses for all the rapes of white women by muslim men.

Shit! it all makes sense now. Sorry for bothering you with these tedious questions.

nationalists* = nationalities

It must be hard out there for a brown sahib.

Espressa - my comment had far less to do with culture as a defense (whether the judge, the defense attorney, or we come up with the defense) and more to do with the media's labeling of the woman as "Muslim". Were the woman Christian, the media would either have not included her faith or, if her Christianity were relevant, taken the care and courtesy of distancing her from mainstream Christians. The press did not extend the same courtesy to the Muslim community here. As a wide disseminator of popular culture, the mainstream press does have a responsibility to provide balanced coverage, rather than imply villification of a group already subject to unwarranted villification. The article should have just villified the woman, rather than the entire Muslim community.

walking home from the library (on days when i post incessantly, you can assume i'm at the library "studying") i was struck by a few of Al Muj's comments. Is SM villifying muslims/bangladeshis? From the article itself I didn't get the impression Vinod sells in his post. As I said above, i think the article is fair (except for the ",a Muslim," clause -- distaste for which goes away if read in a British accent) given the fact that the defense raised culture and religion.

So, Red, I don't think the article villified the community. I think the defense did. But I don't think the woman deserves to go to jail, because I think isolation in a new world is a good excuse. I just wish the defense didn't rest it on culture. And I wish Vinod took a litle more care in writing this post. The poor woman wasn't ignorant of the law. She was scared, alone and ignorant of how to deal with such a drastic change in her life. i wouldn't villify her at all. I would villify her husband.

Al Mujahid asks some important questions which bear thinking on.

Pearl Jam Fan

Could you be any more obtuse, unpleasent and arrogant in your rhetoric? I don't think so.

Red,

Were the woman Christian, the media would either have not included her faith or, if her Christianity were relevant, taken the care and courtesy of distancing her from mainstream Christians.

Not necessarily. The majority population here in the UK is far less religious than their counterparts in the US. "Strict" Christians are frequently ridiculed in the media (the phrase "Bible basher" is a common term of abuse in this country). Hell, there was even a minor uproar some time ago over Tony Blair's attempt to include "God bless you/God bless the United Kingdom" (I can't remember exactly which of these phrases it was) at the end of one of his public speeches in the mode of a US President-style "God bless America". He was actually forced to drop it due to the disparity between US and the UK with regards to the public perception of -- and reaction to -- such behaviour.

I'm saying that we shouldn't be using culture as a defense.

Lots of folks seem to be missing the point here. Although pointing out that she was a "Bangladeshi Muslim" may have been a harmless detail to provide texture to a story, we have to read between the lines a bit. Were the woman Christian, the article would not have simply referred to the woman as a "Christian woman,"

Did she speak the language? Did she have any friends? Family? What support do these women really have when they are brought over to marry? I saw a bunch of desi families at the beach recently. The men were wearing western attire like shorts, even swimming trunks, and totally blended in, but many of the women were covered head to toes in salwar kameez, some even with their heads covered. They were probably Punjabi, but I imagine the women may have been similar to what I imagine someone like Khanom may be: waiting for a weekend trip to the beach and cooped up all day at home without any resources from the community (either where they live, desi or not desi).

Does any one else think the outcomes of these less educated, poor immigrant families really do reflect on us as a whole when these news stories unfold? I agree, the defense attorney was stupid to have raised such an offensive argument, but ultimately stories like this focus and create stereotypes about how desi's treat their kids.

my comment had far less to do with culture as a defense (whether the judge, the defense attorney, or we come up with the defense) and more to do with the media's labeling of the woman as "Muslim".

Wait a second... Who labeled her a "Muslim?" The media or her defense lawyer/team? It seems that the article is reporting the judge's ruling on the defense's argument--which is entirely about her being Muslim and Bangladeshi--not bending the information to match popular bias.

I agree that the media often skews reporting to entertain the paranoia of its readers and that it has a responsibility to present an accurate & comprehensive view of its subject, but in this case it has no reason to qualify its report with "however, not all rural Bangladeshi communities are like this," as that would reflect a different form of bias (does the media, when reporting on the Ulster Movement, balance its reports with "however, not all Irish Protestants...?").

As someone pointed out, "culture as defense" and an appalling act of violence is the story and problem. If this were about an African American woman who beat a white child because of "black rage"; the boy who was excused for killing an Asian girl in California because he grew up with white supremacists; or the Romanian Catholic priests who let a woman die while performing an exorcism, it would be reported the same way. And in reading many of the posts here, it seems that most of us would report it the same way also.

Does any one else think the outcomes of these less educated,

GGK:

No no - I am not trying to lump formal education into the behavior - I do not at all think that something like a college degree has anything to do with her shaking the baby; that is something you learn best through a sort of social education.

The point I was trying to make is that there is another class of desi immigrants, a group that is not here discussing on SM and also has no connection to their community where they live through work, school etc. Most notably they are women and they are isolated. It takes a village to raise a child - that is my feeling anyway as a working mom. Yet, as a woman and a mom, I felt so sad and far removed from this woman. I perceived her to be very much on her own without the luxury of a group of peers, women or moms with whom to discuss her fears or anxieties. I think that is the basic problem and that the isolation will cause other problems too and there is a huge chasm between the desi immigrants who have a network and those who do not. The baby shaking is just one thing, there are many other outcomes that could potentially flow from this isolation.

The point I was trying to make is that there is another class of desi immigrants

i think...

the mistake some people make when looking at legal issues is in that thinking that their culture and their law is somehow universal and therefore superior to other people's. Vinod meant well in writing this article, but one of the key points is his title - "Ignorance of THE LAW"... Whose law? The law the the woman ignored is one rooted in Western European and North American 19th century liberal political philosophy. I'm not saying that its not a great legal system, I'm a law student myself in a commonwealth country so the next few years of my life are devoted to studying this type of law. i'm just saying its not the only 'law.'

yes, this woman had moved to a country where she was obliged to follow this law. but how can you argue that her ignorance due to her cultural background is not a defense? if we recognise that a legal system is inextricably bound to a specific society and culture then she didn't ignore THE LAW, she ignored a western legal system from a culture which she had obviously had little or no contact with, even after moving to britain.

when british people take drugs to thailand, people can stomach their ignorance of the tough thai legal system as a defense much more easily than if a thai person was ignorant of the law in britain. i'm not saying that some legal systems aren't better than others, it might very well be true that the common perception that western law is superior is true.

i'm just saying that its not the only kind of law, and when you look at it that way, maybe this woman did have a defense, even if what she did should have been judged against the more universal rule of common sense.

"Ignorance of THE LAW"... Whose law?

I kinda doubt shaking a baby is explicitly against the law. Meaning, I doubt there's a "don't shake baby" statute. She was probably tried for violating laws against child endangerment and I'd bet she knew that harming a child is "against the law." I would think "thou shalt not harm your child" is pretty universal.

The question is whether she knew (recklessness) or should have known (negligence)that shaking her baby was child endangerment.

If she didn't realize shaking him would cause harm -- its not ignorance of the law but ignorance of the fact that shaking a baby will cause harm.

The defense used religion and culture to explain why she cannot be expected to know the danger and was unaware of a better way to do things, but there were clearly other things the defense could have built on, such as isolation, fear, etc.

Perhaps they used culture because vilifying the culture makes it so that she just could not have known better, silly bangldeshi muslim as she is. Whereas resting the defense on isolation, fear, etc. would probably return a verdict of negligence.

"In 1997, British au pair Louise Woodward was found guilty of second-degree murder in the death 8-month-old Matthew Eappen in Massachusetts. A judge later reduced the charge to involuntary manslaughter, sentenced the nanny, then 19, to time served and sent her home to England."

That nanny went home free due to pressure from Britishers and their government. Apparently they don't see these cases as crime.

REF: http://www.courttv.com/archive/casefiles/nanny/nanny.html

Checking the comments of most people on this site and over the internet, had actually brought me back to Islamic School. What i am going to say next is nothing you would imagine but the fact that i had sensed the ultimate challenge... the test of Faith. Now it had started a new chapter, but only from the same old contents, (if you know what i mean you would understand and if you dont... well then that is something out of the ordinary).
And don't waste time thinking about it, you're not the only one who thinks.

(GUARANTEE OF RESPECT)
Hello people.
I'm a bangladeshi and a Muslim.
Before i got the internet connection i didn't really know that people could actually get so lost and so obviously dilated.
Everybody knows that as long as there is good in the world, then the world will not come to an end... but that is what it's all about isn't it. Good VS Evil
As you can see, the first two words i had typed are Hello and People. BUT WHY?
Because i know that you know that i know that you people... are people.
And what do they say? People get scared of what they do not know.
So next time you hear, see or even read something... you've still got to respect it one way or another.
And then watch how you gain respect yourself.

If you really thought that the bermuda triangle was the only great mystery in the world, you were wrong. There are numerous places on Earth and Water, that just don't let you enter.
By the way, it's not a mystery at all according to me and others.
For egsample, there is a place near Burma. Once you get close to the mountains or Island or cave, a really BIG hand will come out and start to wave left and right. meaning, DO NOT ENTER OR COME ANY FURTHER.
It's because Jinn's live in them places. All different kinds of them.
But the Bermuda triangle i think must be the Satans place. After all, he is in the world though. he isn't in hell or anything you know.
And then theres the back of my grandads village... in the pool, (but we call it Fukri).
It's propably smaller than my Neighbours back yard.
Anyways, in that pool lives a family of jinns. A mother with her son and daughter. they live in peace and do not trouble anybody.
You see, its perfectly normal these things.
Theres good people and bad people and good jinns are jinns and bad jinns are satan's.
Our oldest father is Adam, and the jinn's oldest father is the Satan himself.
(to be continued)

Oh come on, i wake up in the morning and they're all in my F.....ing chaddees.
So what desi got married and dis dat the other.

IF I HAD TO ASK YOU WHAT IS THE MEANING OF SO AND SO?

AND IF YOU KNEW THE ANSWER YOU WOULD SAY IT AND IF YOU DIDN;T KNOW THE ANSWER THEN YOU WON'T SAY IT... INNIT.

THEN WHY THE BLOODY HELL DO WE THINK?????????

ISN'T IT OBVIOUS ALREADY?

Hello, did you ever think that this lady that you call isolated, that YOU call isolated in them conditions is not isolated, because she says she isn't. Trust me i know i'm a bengali aswell. And we love our country as much as some people who love to open their traps. Isolated from what? that is the question.
Now what do you think these ladies are going to think now... "these people are doing what the devil could't do to me". And do you know what the stupidest thing is, it is that it's true aswell. There is no such word as supersticsion... its you lot who needed a word to sort your f...cked up brain up, get it? Along with another few million words too.

Chamunda Swami is a scam artist.

I need to address the fact that one person brought up the scam pulled by Chamunda Swami and others - it is true they are scam artists - PLEASE save your money - if you are religous and want to avoid 'black magic' if that is what you really feel is the problem - then please save your money and find peace in a temple and/or church - something positive is best - you know what, I think God will give more love to those that see power in God - NOT in scam artists - please do NOT go to 'Chamunda Swami' - he really knows nothing - it is interesting - when an educated person goes to him - he gets nervous - very nervous - because he is insecure and his assistants are more of scam artists than anyone - but aren't they always - I mean we have all seen the news reports and the movies - well, there is truth to it - listen, if they were so 'good' at heart - why charge so much? I mean, aren't they supposedly doping God's work? Well, they are not - someone needs to shut them down - other scams are shut down these should be as well. You will give them money - they will NOT call you back (once the check is cashed) and if you ask them why they haven't called - get this - here is what they say: "well if you don't believe than don't do it" - *&!()*&)(*!!!

PLEASE!!!!

Can they be ANYMORE manipulative - they say this to everyone. Sad part is - frankly, people are so desperate they do it - they put up with their ego - if things were better and if they felt better they would see manipulative behavior for what it is - SAVE YOUR MONEY - humans cannot do what God can - feel people have done evil onto you? COME ON - do you really think that something bad can have power over good? Have faith in soemthing real. I am very upset because I have many examples of those who have been scammed by these people - and it makes me angry when they take advantage of someone who is sick - and they do - wow - do they ever. This nice couple had a sick child - and fine you do what you can - but he should have done it for free - but he milked them for EVERY damn penny they had - it was sad - we are talking about a sick child here. Do not put your faith in any of these people - they exist in all cultures - Chamunda is a scam artist.