April 28, 2006
I Just Play One On TVFilm
Gone are the days where brown skinned actors are typecasted to play the thick accented T-Mobile kid. These days, if you are brown, Hollywood is looking for you to play the role of a terrorist. United 93, the movie about the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania on 9/11, hits the big screens today and The LA Times did a great article on the men that play the terrorists.
As filmmakers tell a number of stories about Sept. 11 and other attacks both real and fictionalized — a rapidly growing list that includes “Munich,” “Syriana,” “Paradise Now” and Friday’s “United 93” — there’s increased demand for young Middle Eastern actors. But directors and their casting agents must convince those actors that their cinematic cause is more noble than that of directors a generation ago, who routinely depicted Arabs as cartoonish, fanatical madmen.
Mazhar Munir from Syriana
When writer-director Stephen Gaghan was casting “Syriana,” his ensemble drama about the political and personal costs of America’s dependence on foreign oil, he struggled to find a young actor of Pakistani descent to play a suicide bomber… “I had found a couple of terrific young actors who simply weren’t allowed by their families to take the part,” Gaghan said. “One young man’s family said he would be cut out of the family” if he accepted the role. He held casting sessions in Los Angeles, New York, Paris, Damascus, Bahrain, Dubai and Karachi without success before he finally found Mazhar Munir in London.[link]
I haven’t watched ‘Syriana’ yet, and personally, have absolutely no desire to watch ‘United 93’- just watching the trailer makes me queasy. I can only imagine the conflict that these actors feel, especially when it comes to starring in a film about the events around 9/11, a day that impacted so many people in so many ways around the world.
[T]he actors say they are thankful to be rid of the clichéd Middle Eastern villains of the late 1980s and early 1990s (in films such as “Delta Force,” “Navy Seals,” “Iron Eagle”), who were far more likely to be bearded, wear kaffiyehs and shout Arabic insults than resemble a real person. It was precisely those clichéd depictions that made Abdalla so nervous about trying out for “United 93.”“The reputation of representing Arabs by Hollywood is a stereotype, and it’s an incredibly hurtful stereotype,” says Abdalla, who was born in Scotland to Egyptian parents… “The idea was to put all of those people on the plane and try as best as we can to tell that story,” Abdalla said of his meeting with the filmmaker. “[United 93] wasn’t to be a film about stereotypes.”
[link]
#1 Mutineer Crush
Though playing a terrorist these days tremors actors with trepidation, the role of playing an Iraqi terrorist ex-Republican Guard soldier Lost on an island was one that Naveen Andrews picked. It has served him well as it has now landed him as one of the World’s Most Beautiful People in 2006.
“I feel a sense of responsibility to the Iraqi community and to the Arab world,” Andrews told us…. “I was concerned that the way Sayid was going to be perceived would not be negative or peripheral in any way. The audience is reaching out to the so-called enemy in a way that the government and the media won’t allow them to do.”[link]
If I thought airport security was too constraining for me, I can’t imagine what it must be like for these actors when they go through security. “I’m sorry, officer. But I’m really not a terrorist, I just play one on T.V.”
taz on April 28, 2006 04:04 AM in Film · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Wasn't there a news story lately about actors who played terrorists being detained at a British airport?
Meanwhile Appu is still alive.
I wonder what Indian have got to do in order to get rid of stereotypes, and have western media make an attempt to go beyond superficial.
Regards
Indian and Arab actors in the west will always have a tough time to find roles other than the stereotypical trash that panders to mainstream society's prejudices and misconceptions. Although of course there will always be exceptions (Parminder Nagra?)
But it must be tough to be a sensitive and creative individual who wants to be an actor and explore the complexity of human life through the roles written by great literary artists and work with great directors and to have been inspired by Olivier or Brando or Streep, and instead having to spend your entire working life in (metaphorical) black face!
really interesting post, I've never really thought about what its like to digest and perform these roles for brown skinned actors.
nitpick (because I just watched the entire first season of Lost in four days): Naveen Andrews plays a former member of the Iraqi Republican Guard in Lost, which, while brutal, doesn't qualify as a terrorist outfit. Given the current legal arguments going on between non-combatants and soldiers, I think the distinction has to be made.
if you're brown, stick around.
"without struggle, there is no progress" - F.D.
although the quote was meant for civil rights, it can apply to the media too..
I wouldn't use 'the West' there. There are many roles for desi actors in the UK; bobby, detective, chief of police, surgeons, doctors, teachers, drug dealers, lawyers, accountants, market vendors and postmen. Just from the shows I can think of right now. I'll write more later.
I wouldn't say that Sayid registers as a "Terrorist" on lost. He's an ex-Republican Guard soldier, and not at all religious, so he actually registers as something more like "former enemy." They have had him torture bad people on the show a couple of times, which bothers me -- it's totally playing on racial stereotypes.
Syriana is well worth seeing -- more complex than any other film about terrorism and oil I've ever seen. A little nutty in some ways, but you have to respect the ambition to have an action movie where four different languages are spoken, phonetically correctly.
Bong Breaker,
Along with the examples you've listed, don't forget "Second Generation" and the Om Puri/Indira Varma gangster-themed episode from "The Canterbury Tales", which both had desi characters in very non-stereotypical roles indeed.
Amen to that! Inshallah that might even happen sometime in my (or even better, in Woody Allen's) lifetime.
Syriana is a great movie -- if you keep in touch with oil-geopolitics, that is. Otherwise, it might seem way too intricate in the plot. Mazhar Munir is definitely worth watching, though.
Hear! Hear! Definitely worth watching right now since gas prices are causing so much havoc. Interestingly enough, I found Munir's character very touching. He ended up being a fanatic and while I understand and accept that what he did was wrong, I couldn't help telling myself that circumstances are what screw people to such lows. His father's character was particularly poignant.
This is a tough one. Gregory Itzin the guy who plays the rotten Prez on 24 says that he gets so much hate from the average person all the time and has to keep reiterating that he isn't a bad guy in person. I can only imagine what these guys will go thru over a period of time if they get stereotyped into these roles.
I'm not so convinced that playing a clean cut Arab terrorist is any better.
Huh? The terrorists who carried out 9/11 were Muslims. What does it matter what they look like. That stereotype is enough. Unfortunately this was fact not fiction.
He plays an ex Iraqi Republican guard member not a terrorist. Hated but not necessarily the obvious. At the end of the day I realize it's a livelihood for these guys but it's like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
He's of Pakistani descent? My brother and I were convinced he was Arab, just from his pronunciation of the words in the movie. The SM picture of him is VERY hot though. Yum.
I forgot to add the televised version of Meera Syal's novel "Life is Not All Ha Ha Hee Hee." If any of you guys in the US can maange to find the DVD of this, I'd strongly recommend you check it out. Great stuff, a little racy at times, and the ladies here in particular will enjoy it.
Re: Naveen Andrews on "Lost"
Apart from the torture sequences, he's portrayed as one of the most decent and brave characters on the show. I thought it was an interesting twist.
hey taz this was a pretty solid post.
good eshtuff yo!
in other news, naveen andrews continues to pimp hoes on the islands of hawaii. dalal bhai naveen.
Amardeep,
I gotta disagree about having Naveen Andrews' character on Lost do the torturing and that being racially stereotypical. I would argue that they have him do it because they know he's done it before and knows what to do. Just as the writers have had Ana Lucía get involved in security issues, it's because she's a cop by profession. And I think the portrayals of both of them as being bothered by their actions shows that they're not just some generic violent brown people, but rather complex, conflicted humans.
I would agree. He is portrayed as sensitive and intelligent and on the "inside" rather then the outside. And it's a very complex character with a past as are all the other characters.
Ok, ok, Lost fans, it's fixed...geez....
Merely looking out for you guys- seeing as how most of the mutineers out there find him to be a delicious.
RCK- yes, one of the actors did get prevented from coming to watch the film here; it's in the LA Times piece.
Re: Naveen Andrews #1 Mutineer Crush.
Ahem Taz, I thought we already *had* a Crush #1 for the mutiny. What do we want with Hollywood celeb types when we've got local talent?
speaking of non-stereotypical roles, has anyone seen this new credit card commercial which shows a 'behind-the-scenes' view of some fake action movie?
anyways, regardless of the credit card or the director who was plugging the card, one of the "heroes" of the fake film was a Sikh (i think waris ahluwalia, not certain). He just used his regular american joe accent and didn't do anything outwardly 'indian.' Nothing different about his appearance besides the obvious dhari and pagrdi..
With all the complaining of typecasting desi actors/actresses, you have to admit there are small moves toward casting us in everyman roles..
Just one thing though - Naveen Andrews is very good at his gig, but I mean, really, he does not look Iraqi. Iraqi's are so fair skinned almost Mediterranean Italian/Greek looking. I have never seen a South Indian looking Iraqi. Isnt this another problem? That all brown people are the same? He doesnt look slightly Iraqi. It reminds me of how that Chinese actor played Mowgli in the Disney live action version of The Jungle Book - because, China/India - they're the same, right?
Not only that, but the fact is since "True Lies" (which I'm surprised wasn't mentioned) the portayal of Arabic terrorists all but disappeared for a while. After "True Lies" in particular, the Arab-American community finally said "enough is enough". Afterwards, most terrorists were either homegrown ("The Rock", "Arlington Road"}, of the Russian/Baltic variety ("The Peacemaker", "Air Force One", "15 Minutes"), or British... because they have those terrific, bad-ass accents, y'know? Compare those titles to Munich, Syriana, Paradise Now, and United 93 (which, by many accounts, is supposed to be excellent), and these films don't even belong in the same multiplex. No, it doesn't help the cause of anti-typecasting any, but at least these roles are an advance from a decade ago.
"Paradise Now" is a Palestinian film written and directed by Palestinians. I'd expect in that case, the actors didn't need much convincing from their casting agents that roles weren't stereotypical.
another guy
Waris Ahluwalia was great in The Life Aquatic - just a regular deep sea diving cameraman and buddy of Bill Murray sardarji, no big deal. Waris is doing good work.
yo, taz, nice one.
beatrice,
yes indeed. the experience of african american actors, screenwriters and directors in hollywood suggests that the old stereotypes die hard in the minds of movie industry executives... and in their estimation of what the general public wants to see. very few black artists have been financed to perform non-demeaning roles, and hollywood rarely portrays african-american life (or indeed, multiracial american life) is ways that are subtle and honest as opposed to reductionist or programmatic.
even now, 20+ years after "she's gotta have it" (a shoestring independent film) broke to the general public the idea that black folks have relationships that are textured, complex and wry, and that black sex is no more or less beautiful and exciting than white sex, and -- shit -- 35 years after "sweet sweetback's badass song," black actors still get offered hoodlum, pimp, or vixen/ho roles rather than ones that are affirming of black life -- or even, to lower the bar a little, that are illustrative of american life as it actually happens.
and after all these years, only a select few actors have been consecrated as legit and acceptable embodiments of actual black life -- the denzel washingtons of this world. if you think about it you'll see the list is incredibly brief. if you're a young actor coming up, you've no choice but to let yourself get pimped in the hope the faustian bargain pays off, or to go indie and claw your way up.
the biggest wedge in this so far has been the (recent) rise of buppie romantic comedies like "brown sugar" and "love jones" which have helped break
hottiesactors like omar epps, mekhi phifer, sanaa lathan. the idea has been that there is enough black purchasing power to support one or two such films each year in major release.the situation is even worse for latinos. let's see how browns do.
peace
Beatrice,
Ever been to Iraq? Know any arabs? Many are in fact quite dark skinned.
Lots of folks here in the states have the notion that iraqis (or arabs in general) are very fair skinned, sometimes having caucasian features.
Not so. You'll find a lot of dark skinned iraqis to be honest. The more mediterranean ones are closer to jordan, lebanon and syria. And even there you'll find a few darkies.
He doesn't look like the typical arab, but his character really brings it out in him-- very nicely at that.
The true test will be if they ever make Sayid say the word "pepsi" or "sprite."
If he pronounces it "bebsi" or "sbrite," you know that dude's got his character DOWN.
This was directed by Wes Anderson, who also made "The Royal Tenenbaums". That film featured Kumar Pallana in a role that skirts towards the stereotypical (as a housekeeper), then manages to avoid it altogether. Sorry to be a grouch, but I'd appreciate the ad more if it weren't such a Truffaut rip off. (Oh, okay. Maybe it's an "homage".)
Aizaz
I have not had the honor of visiting Iraq but I do have Arab friends. But even then, he doesnt look like a darker skinned Arab. He looks identifiably South Indian. Well if his acting is good, it does not matter.
Sidhartha
Yes all that you say is depressing indeed - although it seems in the UK they have a better representation of desis generally than in America.
Wow - now that's what I call movie buff passion ;)
Hey another guy,
It does seem to be happening. I'm thinking of an ad that was running earlier this year for Ebay (that "It" campaign) where there was an image for about 10 seconds during the ad of a desi guy running to a camera on a tripod to hit the timer for a family portrait, and you could see the family matriarch and his wife and kid(s?) posed and waiting, plus there was a T-mobile ad about teenagers being yelled at by their parents who have just received the family cellular bill in the mail, and each of the angry parents calls out to the kids using the offspring's first, middle and last names, and in that group there was a WASPy family, a desi family, an Irish family and a hippie family, among others.
I think both of these ads portray desis as one of the various elements of the fabric of "America". If there were anything negative to say about those 2 ads, I guess you could complain that they both hew closely to model minority image, because in both cases, the families look quite affluent, but hey, I still think it's progress in terms of visibility.
Speaking of which, everyone should rent 'Raising Victor Vargas'.
True. Good analysis.
But will the sistas forgive you for leaving Taye Diggs out of that reckoning...
Or Mos Def, for that matter...
An article written a couple of years ago related to this subject:
yumm... taye diggs. mos def. drool... he didn't leave them out, technically, since both of these guys star in the movie Brown Sugar, a movie I've watched too often for my own good.
PMG vs. Naveen to fight for the position of the #1 Mutineer crush. hmmm...
Quick! Which movie?
I watched "Syriana" and I think it was great. The attention to detail about people speaking in their languages is amazing. The portrayal of Mazhar's character in the movie is touching/disturbing.
thank you taz. i was so blinded by the hotness that i left some folks out. all those brothers are fine. i'm a sanaa guy, personally, and annoyed that all the other fine black women are still getting pushed into ridiculous "deliver us from eva" type roles.
and you will have noticed, of course, that dark-skin black women are still a taboo, whereas deep chocolate brothers have been in vogue, among certain circles, since wesley snipes (whatever happened to him anyway?). but the women have to be caramel or lighter... or half-white like halle berry.
I will say something intelligent later but right now thanks Taz for putting up a picture of that Syriana guy!
hark - what's that i hear churning. it'll probaly pop up as post #193, let's just cut to the chase.
"oh. these stereotypes are everywhere. i get told all the time. you are Indian! but you dont look indian. and you have no accent. these people are so ignorant. but then i'm the only indian i know who luges in Bunghole AL, has a one eyed pom with a spiked collard, and my gf is a tranny, so i guess i dont fit in their little minds. please click on my link at darkndisturbed.blogspot.com and leave me a hi-five.", and so it goes.
Dhaavak, you're funneee...
God, what is with you people? Always objectifying men like that. It makes me sick you sexist sows. The first thing you can do is pass judgment on a man's looks. I'd never do that. NEVER! And even you Sid...you public menace.
Jai, also grease monkeys - mechanics. Basically anything is the bottom line, hurrah! Um...we've also had plenty of desi terrorists too. Hakchally, Radio 4 are just starting a documentary series on Akram Khan, the kathak dancer. That's not very relevant though is it?
Lastly, I would to like to counter Jai's endorsement to Life Isn't All... I dislike Meera Syaal and the nonsensical cud she brings up. But make up your own minds ;)
speaking of objectification ... it's probably the sign of the times that the hawttest woman - maybe it's just the refined elegance she possesses - i've seen in recent times is this hostess on pakistani TV (thanks for the link saheli)... yea, i'm an old greybeard. bring on the nautchgirls.
naveen andrews might look south indian, but he doesn't not look arab in my opinion because arabs are pretty diverse. the main diff (in my exp.) between arabs and real browns is that an arab with skin as dark as a brown will usually have curlier hair and a high chance of noticeable african admixture. arabs with straight hair like brown people tend to be the whiter ones (e.g., syrians, lebanese). some arab groups, like egyptians, look really distinctive.
anyway, my point is that arabs are really diverse. but hell, so are brown ppl. it isn't necessarily caving into "all brown people look alike" to acknowledge this flexibility and diversity in casting decisions and not always hold to "true blood" casting.
Hey BB, if this were a thread relating to a post with similar depth of content but pertaining to actresses, most of the comments would be pertaining to their looks and rumored sex lives. Instead, you all are having some sort of semiserious discussion about the actual point of the post!
I'm with Razib - you try your best as a casting director but you're not that fussed about genetics, just looks. Shit like Jason Scott Lee as Mowgli f*cks me right off, but even though casting ethnic Chinese actors as Tibetan in Seven Years in Tibet is an ironic quandry, the pool of Tibetan actors in Hollywood is probably limited. Should you not cast a Sioux as Navajo? Etc etc. I'm fine with Naveen in Lost, I've seen a few episodes and he seems like a good choice. I've seen desi girls play latinas and personally I've been cast as white, Indian and Arab in various second-rate productions.
I get ticked off with desi actors not speaking up about obvious and ignorant inaccuracies. But if I was a jobbing actor in LA only landing parts as cab driver 3 and doctor in background 4 on TV, then a part in a big budget Hollywood thriller came along with a big cheque, as long as I "make scary" and chant Allah hu Akbar as I murder people...I'll be honest, I'd have to think long and hard. I'd probably take it. Who knows? It's tough being an actor.
I thought BB was being sarcastic and referring to the previous comment thread on the Sweet 16 thread where the conversation immediately went to the objectification of women. Right?
Yeah, he totally was. I just took the opportunity to point out the difference.
so where are the pix of chix???
Commercials are definitely a place where desis are gaining some equilateral treatment. Rice krispies treats, tmobile, mastercard, tcby's, kelloggs, playstation, and others have had ads that casted fellow browns with no over-the-top reference to the fact that these actors were of south asian origin. Am I more likely to buy these products now.. hell yes!
If anyone lives in the DC area, they've probably seen the Washington Post Personals ad with this uncle-aged cabbie talks casually on what kinda woman he's looking for. Although he has a mild accent, it isn't the stereotyped Apu-esque sound that many of us would expect. I thought it was a cool idea and props out to someone for thinking outside of the dreaded 'box'..
Why? Because I think the ad agencies know that the brown pound (dollar) is on the up. Desis have higher than average incomes, a lot of purchasing power, disposable cash and frequently a penchant for showing off their wealth.
Yeah, cause that isosceles treatment was really infuriating.
Interestingly the social behavior towards dark skinned black women can be deemed very similar to social behavior in India towards dark skinned Indian women. Men for the most part have started to gain acceptance "as is" but women still need to be "light and hot". Hence my love for Parminder Nagra but she is considered hot in the white world. In India she couldn't land a role in Bollywood.
Oh and Wesley Snipes (I used to be in love with him circa Passenger 57, White men can't jump & Money train) last was heard using some fraudulent documents trying to pass thru South Africa or some kind of immigration fraud. He had some woman also claim that he fathered her child in a crackhouse or something and there was some arrest warrant out for him at some point and a paternity suit. I think it all blew over and he wasn't guilty.
Off topic: I read somewhere that Wesley Snipes is a method actor. So when he was filming Blade everyone actually had to address him as Blade while he stayed in character the entire time, heehee!
So cheezy - lol. I wonder how his wife/gf had to address him? tee hee
Blanket question for the Mutineers,
Is anyone going to go watch United 93? Does anyone else feel this queasiness about going to watch this movie, like I am?
speaking of method acting, an oft-told story (but denied by Hoffman) is one of Laurence Olivier and Dustin Hoffman during filming of Marathon Man. Hoffman the method actor stayed up all night to look like his character (who stays up all night). when Olivier found out what he did, he asked Hoffman why not just try acting?
Not going. I am told, btw, that the movie portrays the passengers as being the cause of the plane coming to earth, leaving out the role of the military planes that shot flight 93 down.
"Blanket question for the Mutineers,
Is anyone going to go watch United 93? Does anyone else feel this queasiness about going to watch this movie, like I am?"
to be honest, i'm now wary of going to see it (even though i was wary before because of the sadness of the story itself) after reading some of the comments in the bbc comment section on the movie. one person said something to this effect: watching this movie will make you mad and will make you feel like going out and doing something about it. i'm not exactly sure what they meant, but it was disturbing.
Taz
I'm going to watch United 93 and I don't feel any queasiness at all.
My own worry is if they show the hijackers as human, instead of the sick gutless coward they really are.
oh oh
I think that was just a speculation and a wild one at that. If thats the case why should the movie show that angle. Besides the human story is more powerful.
My worry is that people like you think that sick gutless cowards are not human.
But of course they are. Just as Rumsfeld and Cheney are humans. And it gives us a big problem in thinking about what it really means to be a human being. I don't think that's a problem to be avoided.
As bad as Cheney and Rumsfield[I'm no fan of them] are you can't compare them to the 19 hijackers on 9/11.
Yes I can. I just did.
And I've also been known to compare apples with oranges.
Showing that the terrorists are human is not a problem. Just don't ask me to sympathize with them or their apologists. From most of the reviews I've read of the film, the film-makers do not set out to demonize the hijackers (if such a feat were possible). But they do not hold back in their depiction of what they were, namely, men who believed that the crime they were committing was sanctioned by God. While I will have no time to see United 93 this weekend, I do plan on seeing it in a theater.
I will absolutely not be seeing it. I lived thru that day and watched it in front of me and nearly lost my brother. I am pissed that a commercial movie is being made about this tragic event. And I hate to be crass but all the people that were there are dead. So other then the bits of conversations had with people on the ground the rest is all fictional. That makes me even more annoyed. By the way the conversation from the flight recorder was apparently only heard by family and no one else and the director only has that to go with. I have a problem with that.
Like what? Take it out on the next brown person you see. Thats a bullshit claim.
I think my quesiness isn't in that- I think it lies in the fact that I don't trust Hollywood. Obviously, given the stereotypical roles given to brown folks as an example, Hollywood just doesn't have a clean track record with me. Then again, sounds like some of the reviews you guys have read and commented on here don't seem like Hollywood did a bad job this time around...I'm still sketch.
Don't know, still not watching it. But I don't watch any movie with violence if I can help it, in an effort to be as non-violent as possible, and well, cuz my active imagination gives me nightmares.
Taz
Any movie about 9/11 that will come out is not gonna make islam look good. The may not be fair, but islam and 9/11 will always be connected.
Annnnd... that has to do with Hollywood misrepresentation and cheap stereotypes and easy soundbytes, right? Right? Please tell me that's what you mean.
"I will absolutely not be seeing it. I lived thru that day and watched it in front of me and nearly lost my brother. I am pissed that a commercial movie is being made about this tragic event. And I hate to be crass but all the people that were there are dead. "
I was living in DC at the time, and I recall that there were all sorts of rumors flying about that day (a car bomb at the State Department was one). But I do want to see this film. I want to remember what I felt when I was calling my dad in NY from my office at GW, to make sure he was OK, and that all NYC bridges were intact, and how he heard the Pentagon was on fire, something even I did not know at the time. I want to remember the panic-stricken cries of my aunt in Chicago, when I called her and she cried in Bengali, "It's happening all over again!" She lost her brother-in law in the Bombay blasts of 1993. I want to remember how I called my brother in San Francisco, who was driving to work, and did not hear the news. I want to remember how I called a friend in Fairfax, whose father worked in the WTC, and the tone of his voice when he did not know if his dad was dead or alive. Only two hours later did he find out his dad escaped in time before the South Tower fell. And I want to remember how I slept with the TV on that night, in the event something else should happen.
Hollywood does not always have a great track record when it comes to filming history. But that it has been done poorly in the past should not discourage them. Judge each individual film on its merits.
KXB with all due respect. Why do you want to remember all those things? Are the memories of having experienced it once not enough?
I still live that reality some days when I wake up in the middle of the night and look for the towers in the odd skyline downtown or when I drive down 7th Avenue and outline them against the blank sky where they used to be or when I look for the towers when I come out of the Lincoln tunnel. I still feel a strange twinge of pain in the pit of my stomach when I see them in movies or look at old pictures. I am reminded of it everday when I pass my doorman who has a picture of his sister who died on that day on his desk. I don't want to remember nor relive that day. I went to two funerals with no bodies and cried for months and my TV was on 24/7 for 4 weeks before my brother came over and pulled the plug and threatened to throw it out if I didn't stop. I feel intense pain now thinking back on that day and having to hold my silence with my parents for 3 and a half hours because I couldn't tell them my brother was in the building that morning. I died a 1000 deaths in those 3 hours and don't wish for it again.
Why would you want to remember something so painful so soon?
Have to say it again: the movie leaves out the role of the military planes that brought Flight 93 down.
i agree w/ janeofalltrades.
I wouldn't see it in the theatre out of concern that some idiot would pounce upon me, announce, "i've got one!", and then proceed to rally fellow moviegoers into take turns kicking the shit outta me. It IS too soon, just b/c the raw emotion from the terrorist attacks still lingers with most Americans (even the normally level-headed ones!).
And how many times do you plan on saying it today?
"Why would you want to remember something so painful so soon?"
I want to remember for the same reasons Jews want us to remember the Holocaust, for the same reasons Armenians are still demanding an apology from the gov't of Turkey, for the reasons that post-apartheid South Africa set up a truth and reconciliation comission - because such records reduce the space for revisionists to operate. When you put pen to paper, or in this case, words to film, you challenge those who want to simply want to move on. This story deserves to told on film because it showed that the first organized response to this attack was not from our military, but a plane-load of ordinary men and women. We can understand self-sacrifice on a small scale, like a parent sacrificing themselves to save their children - evolutionary biolgists would tell us that the parent wants his genes to survive. But these people were sacrificing themselves for people they never met. I've never been the most religious of men, and after 9/11, you often heard, "How could God allow this to happen?" To me, the actions of those passengers was proof of God's existence.
Art is never exploitation.
Haha. I think math jokes don't get nearly enough credit around here.
Deepa, do you have a reputable source on the military planes? I'm not disputing--I usually avoid any 9-11 discussion like the plague, so I haven't been keeping up and want to know more. The last I had heard this was a conspiracy theory, but apparently it's gained traction in the last couple of years.
janeofalltrades: the families signed off on this. Many of the families were in attendance at the premier.
KXB: well put. I think the families have 'never forget' on their minds.
And my art is never exploitation comment was directed at the comments this film is crass: art should never shy away from or be afraid to wrestle with the most difficult questions there are. This film apparently is, well, it's apparently something particular and unique in trying to depict a moment in time. The filmmaker should explore this - it should be explored.
There an movie about the Komagata Maru incident of 1914 about sikh's coming out soon.
such a nice day soon, what if some white person said he was afraid to watch that movie cause he afraid some sikh's might take it out on him, would that be any different then you post #77 when you said you were afraid of some movie go kicking the shit out of me.
Art is never exploitation.
I completely agree.
Often, it becomes a symbol of change, statement, healing, and later closure - like Guernica. I missed it in Madrid but if you ever talk about Guernica to a Spainard - they really get very emotional and see as an enduring statement that stood for half a century.
Or Bob Dylan's song "Blowing with the wind" in a concert in Madrid in Franco's Spain.
I will see the movie.
Thats a interesting POV KBX. More power to you. I am not religious. 9/11 did not make me more religious. It did make me believe in people and humanity more and it wasn't because of Flight 93.
I personally don't feel the need to be reminded. It is something that will forever in my heart and shape who I am. I was very deeply and profoundly moved by it. I don't need to see the story of Flight 93 to believe in the good and sacrifice of people. I see it around me everyday in small doses.
I do strongly concur with you that it is important to remember tragedies in history, learn from them, understand them and respect them. However I think 4 and a half years later is too soon. No one has forgotten. The hurt is still fresh.
And not to sound crass but we as the people who were affected by this still do not know the details of what happened that day. Why the secrecy? Why were the flight recordings not released to the public? Can I be the judge? I'm tired of the conspiracy theories that sound so terribly true. I'm tired that the government has done nothing to dispell them. I am bothered by the lack of footage of the Pentagon attack. I'm bothered by not seeing debris from the flight in the hole Flight 93 made. I'm bothered that the government did not allow media to cover the process and it was never made publically available. Do I only get the Hollywood version of these events? IMO that is what makes me uncomfortable with this movie.
Wanted to hear a response to that. If the military was involved, they should be as zealous in portraying that as they are in portraying anything else. Do you need any other assistance?
someone else, you're right...it's gained traction but I guess is not commonly accepted. I thought it was more established than it is.
janeofalltrades: Popular Mechanics (believe it or not :) ) has several articles 'debunking' 9-11 myths. It is supposed to be a factual, straightforward, and well put together series and to counter the proliferation of myths that have, well, proliferated around the events. Perhaps in those articles you will find some answers?
*I can't remember where I saw the Popular Mechanics articles first, but it is eye-opening.
Yeah. With so much obfuscation any retelling of the official story looks an awful lot like propaganda (like Jessica Lynch). The passengers' intent to stop the hijackers is unmistakeably heroic. Whether they had assistance from the military does not change that.
I'm a bit surprised at the labels that it's "too soon." Too soon for what? Art has already taken up the challenge of understanding and depicting 9/11 and the emotional fallout.
A&E has already made a film called Flight 93 that remains the networks highest watched movie ever. Same with The Discovery Channel's The Flight that Fought Back. Not sure if it was their highest rated program, but it was a major success. (None of which guarantees that United 93 will be successful, however.)
Spike Lee made The 25th Hour about a New York still reeling from the attacks just over a year later. Anne Neslon wrote a play called The Guys a few weeks after the attacks that was performed less than a year later. Authors such as Ian McEwan, Jonathan Safran Foer, and Art Spiegelman have found ways of incorporating the attacks into works of fiction. John Adams won a Pulitzer Prize for writing "On the Transmigration of Souls," which was a response to the WTC attacks. And there have been plenty of art exhibits dealing with the attacks.
And consider this. Movies about Pearl Harbor were being made in less than a year after the attacks. The first movies about the Vietnam war was being made four or five years after the troop pullout, etc.
I'm not trying to minimize anyone's pain from that day. If the movie is going to be too harrowing to watch, then no one should watch it until they are sure they are ready. That is a personal choice that only the individual viewer can make. But to speak on behalf of the rest of the country strikes me as myopic.
Frankly, I'm more disturbed by the announcement that Brangelina are going to make an adapataion of Atlas Shrugged. But I guess every generation gets the epic they deserve.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=7&c=y
Here's the Popular Mechanics article.
'TO INVESTIGATE 16 OF THE MOST PREVALENT CLAIMS MADE BY CONSPIRACY THEORISTS, POPULAR MECHANICS assembled a team of nine researchers and reporters, who together with PM editors, consulted more than 70 professionals in fields that form the core of this magazine, including aviation, engineering and the military."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842/html
(I can't click on the link-thingie for some reason?)
Thanks Deepa, we must have simul-posted :)
Thank you. I will search for it. My dad subscribes to it but he's a rabid liberal nontheless :-)
We all speak for ourselves here. I don't see anyone here speaking for the rest of the country.
Ha, so was I! (Not because of Brangelina but because the movie will cause more people to go out, read it and get their heads screwed up.)
Between the two of us, not me, thanks. Toodles!
"I'm a bit surprised at the labels that it's "too soon." Too soon for what? Art has already taken up the challenge of understanding and depicting 9/11 and the emotional fallout."
Marshall McLuhan coined the term "The medium is the message." It's one thing to watch a documentary or film about 9/11 in the comfort of your home, with the phone ringing, kids running about, etc. But to sit in a darkened theater, looking at a huge screen, with THX sound can be far more scary. I will ask some friends to go, but if they say no, I will understand and not force them, in which case I will go alone.
But you don't even seem to know your own name...
Well, one person has already said "It IS too soon, just b/c the raw emotion from the terrorist attacks still lingers with most Americans (even the normally level-headed ones!)." And you yourself has said "However I think 4 and a half years later is too soon. _No one_ has forgotten." "No one" being the collective pronoun. If that wasn't your intented meaning, then I accept that.
Sure I do, but am I obligated to share it with you? I'm in good company with KXB and technophobic and Pearl Jam Fan and another guy, so don't play like I'm unique here.
G'day and Peace out, y'all!!
I guess I'd like to hear what annoyed you so much to delurk. Is it because I was claiming a military involvement for which there is no material proof? I understand that because I now realize I thought I knew something which I don't know.
Or is it because you are angry when someone brings up the possibility of military involvement?
You were angry enough to respond (so you're not "above" discussion) but you chose the most uninformative moniker and kept your remarks rather uniformative as well (other than that you were feeling some strong emotion).
I dont know.
Even if I was a white American,I would be pretty ambivalent about a 9/11 movie.....somehow it does appear to be too soon.I personally haven't been able to see the 9/11 footage even once since 9/11 itself without wincing or looking away......I flew into Houston from Delhi a a month after the attacks and of course,compared to my maiden American journey a year before,things just felt so different...jarringly,they still do.
Some of my (desi) friends were discussing going to this movie......none was sure.Most of us did feel uncomfortable at the misplaced nationalism it might evoke.I think I have had enough of people walking past you and your trying to second-guess whats on their mind.
I wonder if the Saudi Ambassador will be going to the premiere ? Perhaps some complimentary should be mailed to his address...
"complimentary tickets" ...
concerned mutineer (#22):
Phew, I'm glad I didn't have to say it! If he isn't #1, is PMG at least #2?
Deepa (#54):
Well, I was already leaning, but that put me over the edge. Who else wants in the Deepa fan club?
I'd like to, but I'm not sure what angle to take on it. You've more or less backed me into a corner.
"How could God allow this to happen?" To me, the actions of those passengers was proof of God's existence.
Because God is so merciful, benevolent and compassionate? Funny, the fact that the passengers actually did die did not remind you of God's cruelty and impotence.
My own worry is if they show the hijackers as human, instead of the sick gutless coward they really are.
Why were they exactly cowards? Traditionally a person is considered a coward for attacking women or children or unarmed men because the attacker does not face the same level of threat from these people that he would face from an armed man.
In this case, as they were going to kill themselves anyway, the fact that they chose 'soft' targets was not because attacking soft targets was the easier thing to do. They were going to die anyway so saving their own skin was not a motivation in attacking these soft targets.
So I am not sure why the 9-11 hijackers were cowards.
:D
Al_Mujahid_f_D,
*Ahem* Some of us would say that God was acting through those passengers in their efforts to overcome the hijackers -- which they managed to do.
So when God acts through people, he kills them?
I'm just being annoying, I don't want to get into a theological debate!
Why not hire only hindu actors to play terrorists etc?
They will have no/lesser qualms in portraying the stereotype.
Hmmm
The other side is also invoking God and God's existance and God's command as justification for their action. No one is talking about HUMANS and their humanity. Bringing God into this is the root of most of these issues to begin with.
Bringing God into this is the root of most of these issues to begin with.
Amen, brother :)
-se
I find most people down on Atlas Shrugged never even read it.
Care to make your confession?
I find most people down on Atlas Shrugged never even read it.
That's because it's unreadable.