Yo Abhi - I heard the documentary about this live on the radio. Take a listen. I'm very proud of my international hip hop collection.

PS - you hear the interview with Chee Malabar in the radio doc. He doesn't say "institutional hierarchies are messed up", it was slightly stronger :)

There are no good south asian rappers because they don't have any rhythm. However, scientific studies show that with increased melanin, south asians should be able to rap at least as well as Eminem or Vanilla Ice.

;)

You know, I saw "Brown Like Dat" a while ago and I was really horribly disappointed. Everyone on that documentary pretended like South Asians have an unproblematic relationship with African/Black Americans, and it's just not true.

When we get involved with hip-hop (I speak from experience) we often feel like we have an unquestioned right to the culture. As people of color, I think our role is quite different from that of white co-opters and gentrifiers of culture. But at the same time, we are co-opting something.

Maybe it's a more balanced phenomenon, seeing as how popular hip-hop artists routinely jack desi beats for their tracks. I think desis need to be much more conscious and much less celebratory of other desis who stake a claim to a culture that was invented by the blood, sweat and tears of Black folks.

No, it wasn't a multiracial art form either. The Puerto Ricans who were involved with hip-hop's creation even admit that they were influenced by "the Black kids". There are some political and social realities in common between Nuyoricans and Black New Yorkers, African ancestry being one of them, but we need to be clear on what hip-hop culture is and where it came from.

I'm not saying we should have nothing to do with it, but we need to act like we are "guests in the house" and show some real respect for where it came from... and stop acting like it's some kind of "universal" phenomenon. The only thing universal about it is its global co-optation.

And yes, it's different when it's African or Afro-Latino co-optation of African American culture. Since the beginning of colonization we desis have had an alternately beautiful and troubled relationship with Africans. Let's examine our history critically please.

one of my favorite alll-time songs. good looking out abhi. anxious about hearing of hip hop artists coming from the mother land.

Ranjit, what ARE you talking about? Why should India's historical relationship with Africa have anything to do with how we should behave in music? Should we also act like 'guests in someone else's house' when listening to jazz or rock? Hell, should we be 'acting as guests' while living in the West and watching Frasier? It's not our country, we co-opted it!

I can speak from experience too, here in the UK. Blacks and Asians have a strained relationship, sure. But when it comes to music, I've never felt less distanced from people of an entirely different background. In the studio I've worked with white people of all classes, Asian drug dealers and medical students and black ex-cons and professional singers. It may sound corny but music really does have the power to unite. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. No black artist has ever given me a hard time for being involved in hip hop or r&b, a phat beat is phat no matter what colour you are.

http://www.mchash.com/music/

Ranjit,
I hear where you're coming from. Nothing irritates me more than exoticizing and appropriating other cultures. Usually it's a power thing. I was thinking about this in relation to white Zen practitioners. Why do they make my blood boil in a way someone say, who was Armenian and got into Zen wouldn't?

Do you think that hip hop is a race thing or a class thing? While brown kids often have hugely problematic dynamics with people of other visible minority groups and it's infuriating that often the same people will turn around and adopt all these markers of "black" culture... is it perhaps a wider class-based movement of the disenfranchised that lots of groups; black, brown, Hispanic, white, Asian (like my inconsistent use of colours and "ethnic" markers) will co-opt?

There are a lot of privilaged brown kids who get into rap and hip hop and get blinged, pimped, iced out and ahem, "front" like they're from the ghetto when they're from some cushy suburb and have their parents paying every last expense till there are 32 years old. However, in a lot of ways, that's also the direction that hip hop and rap have gone in. So much of it has become almost exclusively about the hos and the conspicuous consumption. Like any multi-billion dollar industry is bound to be.

I was really sorry I missed Brown Like Dat - I meant to watch it when it was in town. Your point about being more self-critical of our actions as a community is an excellent one. While there has been an over commodification of this movement, it doesn't mean that as members of a community, we can't remain conscious and analytical of our relationship to other cultures and our selective interaction with and exploitation of them.

i'm sure that you all have already covered them, but i gotta plug Karmacy
I saw them perform in Houston a few yrs back; moving stuff..

claim to a culture that was invented by the blood, sweat and tears of Black folks.

Blues, Jazz, Rock N' Roll, Hip Hop, etc. are all rooted in the blood, sweat, and tears of black folks (essentially most of the music identified with American culture).

I think it matters where you are at, in terms of venue. Alot of the concious rappers have a multi-ethnic audience and thats beautiful. Also, its not really like you can judge a person's level of knowledge of self-determination by their color or their clothes, so if you really want to be be around people who are positive, skin color is not the be all and end all anyway. that said, i think there's ways of participating in culture that are just and unjust, and what you need to do to be just depends on your social position.

as a man, if i were to participate in the objectification of a woman by cheering an objectificatory lyric in a song, thats unjust. but if a woman cheers a line in a song that reverses the typical scenario and momentarily objectifies a man, that might not be unjust. Because it may give the men in the audience a glimpse at the scenario when 9/10 songs dwell on how fine a woman is. Or something like that

p.s. For me, Jesus Walks gets me almost every time and to me thats an example where a person can feel that song even if they've never been to ch'ch

Whoa, maybe attitudes to hip hop are very different across the Pond brownfrown/Ranjit. I just don't get why it's important to come from the ghetto to be a rapper, I don't care as long as you're good. If you're rapping about being from the ghetto and you're a posh boy, fine - you're an idiot. But rap is not about any one thing. Maybe this is what they were referring to in the doc - US hip hop is overly obsessed not only with money, but making money from nothing. Kanye West isn't from the ghetto. Chad Hugo is one of hip hop's most successful producers (he's Filipino). I'm coming at this from a bboy stance (heh) so I can't overlook old school, before hip hop became the blingfest it is now. Gujudude's right - as I said above, much of modern popular music originates in the black community. If you apply ownership to a type of music, where do you draw the line? Who can participate in what? Where's Sid, I hope he'll back me up.

MC Hash - sort out your production and your third track could be promising :)

BB, I think what Ranjit is saying above is that if desis (in the US, UK, wherever) use hip hop as a means of expression through music, we should respect its roots and be aware of its context, especially where it came from and how it got to where it is now. Otherwise you get desi producers/rappers just stealing the latest hot club track and putting a desi spin to it, which is bogus and does a huge disservice to both hip hop and to desi music.

The idea of being a "guest in someone's house" IS important, because as GujuDude points out, rock and jazz, for instance, has origins in American black music (such as blues and gospel). If desis get ticked off with someone appropriating a thousand year old raag or a classic bollywood track to make a buck (or a few million), we should show a similar level of respect and appreciation for hip hop and other black music forms.

Desis didn't invent hip hop or rock or jazz or the "remix", y'all. We came late to the party with our own stories and ingredients and stuff. I'm all for mixing up those elements, but we should have respect for the sources of our inspiration, and so something positive and productive through music rather than chase the almighty dollar.

I just saw Spike Lee's Bamboozled last night, and it was pretty interesting to hear him talk about how he believes that today's gangsta rap is the 21st century version of the minstrel show. It also made me think about a conversation I had with my cousin's roommate not too long ago. I was looking through his collection of Vibe magazines, and it occurred to me that not a single picture had anyone smiling. In our conversation he was saying that one theory for why mainstream rappers don't smile is that it is a reaction to the minstrel show, slavery and even the early jazz days where black people were forced to smile for the white folk to lessen their "animal nature" so as to be more palatable. What's ironic to me is that by playing into the rap stereotypes, mainstream rappers have just replaced the old kind of buffoonery with a new one.

I heard Biju Mathew speak a couple of years ago about his experiences in helping New York taxi drivers to organize, and the following story stuck with me (I'll try to tell it as accurately as possible): At some point the New York Times did a piece on one of the dhabas (I think it was one of the ones on Lexington in the vicinity of 27th-29th) which a lot of the drivers happened to frequent. The author sampled two dishes - makki-di-roti and sarson-da-saag - which s/he raved about. A short time after the article came out, the dhaba was swamped (lines out the door) with people who'd never been there before, but were obviously doing the food review tour of the multiculti NYC lunch scene. The makki-di-roti and sarson-da-saag were the first to go, and the regulars were left reeling by the crowds until the next food review came out and everyone flocked to wherever that place was.

He then went on to juxtapose this fascination and interest with the treatment taxi drivers (who are the guys who most commonly hang out at this dhaba) face at the hands of *SOME* of the multiculti food-flocking crowd: racist slurs, insults, fearful glances, disrespect of their profession, etc. It's this line-item acceptance and rejection of a culture which is just plain fucked up.

This is exactly the same thing that goes on with *SOME* of the thugged out desis. brownfrown eloquently illustrated the class contradictions. But there's also a palpable sense of racism among these guys in the way they might react to a black man walking up to them in their neighborhood which can be likened to the way *SOME* of the NYC multiculti food crowd might react to a turbaned Sikh man walking up to them on the street.

Food, dance, and music are the easiest things to pick out of a culture; but if you embrace them, then you shouldn't reject the socio-political baggage which comes with them.

desi rappers here in US from Bohemia in Cali to Deep in Houston to Kidd Skilly in Detroit are all rapping about the ghetto life from a desi perspective. Only Nivla on the track "My People" got a little political. Dont have any link to it, so go find it on the world wide web.

Some time in high school I was shuffling though a CD rack in the jazz section of a music store and I came across and album called, "THE ORIGINAL JAZZ QUARTET" or something equally as superlative. I pulled it out and found four rosy cheeked white faces staring up at me from the album cover. I tossed it back in with a rare combination of revulsion and amusement.

Madurai,

while that may be true that a person might listen to hip hop music and still be scurred of a black man walking down the street, on the other hand, hip hop music has allowed a lot of people to relate to each other to an extent that kids from today's generation might give you a heart attack at how well they relate across ethnicities because you'd be so excited. not all grant you, but kids today are doing great things in terms of being in a mutli-ethnic society. if we can hold this ship together a few more years, the next generation while way too into sms and sexing, is doing all right

"Aiy! If I may interject
Rap these days is like a pain up in the neck
Cornier and phonier than a play fight
Take two of these and don't phone me on the late night
... the beat won't fail me"

Wicked post, Abhi, the beat won't fail us either...hopefully.

As for the strange debate going on here...what's wrong with producers using desi beats to make cheesy tunes? It's music. If you don't like it, fine, but I bet there are a few out there who do. Similarly, Patel Rap was the single most scarring experience in my entire life, it makes my rap-loving ears bleed, but my guju uncles and auntys love that shit. Ya think I should sit them down with some Kool Herc or some 2 Live Crew for a bit of fun?

Uh I think blacks do a lot of stereotyping as well of desis as well as other groups(Latinos, Asians).The videos they had a couple of years ago with the songs sampling bollywood music were pure Orientalist nonsense. As far as desi kids picking up rap, most of them arent from the hood and the ones that are in the hoods of lets say NYC or Jersey arent really rapping and if they are theyre usually cornballs.Also I hope you guys know that most of the black cats rapping are also cornballs. This idea that every black cat in the ghetto is somehow authentically thuggish is racist and silly. The desi cats in the hood who have lived their lives like in gangs or in crime are all rikers island graduates and regret their diplomas. Real life can't be expressed in silly raps.

The desi kids in the UK who have lived in the hood over there probably have more claims to this rap shit from what I know.

Getting back to the original post, I couldn't agree more with the quotes Abhi selected. I've never really been into hip-hop, largely because of the apolitical-ness (yes, to me that is a word)of the lyrical content. 10-15 years ago, I used to love acts like Public Enemy. But I don't really feel any connection to American rappers today. I've never rolled on 22s, don't feel the need to grill my teeth, and don't much care for violence. Although, I admit, somewhat shamefully, that a small part of me wouldn't mind being in a rapper's entourage.

my mum's era but does this qualify as rap - from a 1968 hindi movie ashirwad starring ashok kumar.

I dance salsa and enjoy it immensely, but I am barely aware of the socio-economic circumstances of the origin of that music/dance. Does that make me disrespectful to Latino culture? I don't think so.

Is it necessary for me to learn anything about Latino culture because I enjoy dancing salsa? Can I just enjoy it as an independent activity? Sure I can, but perhaps it would be more meaningful if I connected it with the language/culture.

I have white friends who are totally into Yoga, but are not willing to interact with too many other aspects of Indian culture. Does that make them 'fake'? I don't think so.

I think things get co-opted or used in unexpected ways by other cultures all the time. On the whole, it's a healthy trend which we should not get too worked up about.

Great comment Duniya Dur Darshan, spot on. Rap is corny, technophobe, Neha - big up yo' bad selves (to co-opt a black phrase).

To put what I think succinctly:

Rap is nothing to do with your social background, it's an artform. Anyone can participate. If Prince William decides to rap I'll listen, if he's good I'll say so. Let quality be the only requirement for membership of this club. Rap does not equal gangsta rap, this seems to be part of the confusion. If I came out with something like De La Soul, A Tribe CQ or the Pharcyde, hell even something like Madvillain, Tricky or The Streets what relevance does my socioeconomic background have?

Neha is right - so what if people nick a desi hook for a catchy tune? As long as the original author gets his/her due, I have no problem at all. The controversy with SaRe GaMa and Dre, and later other artists, was that the music had been lifted without permission - that's unacceptable in today's age. I don't hear Irish people giving Mario Wynans getting a hard time for sampling Enya, for example.

But I still don't understand this whole respecting roots thing. Of course we should respect any musical style's roots - all true musicians do (I hope). But how does that influence my conduct? I'd hate to think that as a desi I would be less welcome in the hip hop fraternity because of my race. Sure racism exists in music, but my point about my own experiences earlier were to show that I've hung out with people I would have never been accepted by in day-to-day life, solely due to music. If we demand this respect of 'the history' then much of the music we discuss would not exist. Did the pioneers of black music read up about the Europeans that invented the pianos, winds and other instruments years earlier? Afrika Bambaataa led the way to modern hip hop by stealing a German band's (Kraftwerk) synths.

I find a lot of this attitude bizarre, snobbish and patronising.

(On a UK Desi HH tip, Foreign Beggars' interview's recently gone up on UKHH.)

Sepia Mutiny is also quoted in Outlook

If I came out with something like De La Soul, A Tribe CQ or the Pharcyde, hell even something like Madvillain, Tricky or The Streets what relevance does my socioeconomic background have?

Well, just to take a minor example, there are particular hip hop groups that appeal to me and a lot of people I grew up with in the suburbs of New York. I call them suburban hip hop---like Tribe, the Roots, etc. Then at the same time, there's this weird fixation with people like Dre and Snoop Dogg and Biggie and other people that are clearly identifed as ghetto. That second part almost feels like it's a love of modern-day minstrelsy even though that's not what those artists are to the communities they come from. (I came to this revelation after reading Wages of Whiteness, which is a great book and well worth reading if you're interested in the history of race and class in the U.S.)

So I'm not agreeing or disagreeing bongbreaker but just saying that it is a little more complicated than just "music is music" when you start to consider the overall social functions of hip hop in the U.S. at least and that a substantial percentage of desis in the U.S. grew up in exactly the kinds of environments I'm talking about. So it's a race AND class issue here (among other things).

just a post-script:

i'm talking in terms of social analysis of understanding the roles people play. as an artist, i think people should do whatever the f@#k they want as long as its somewhat honest and that means refuting ethnic claims to ownership over art as well as denouncing the use of art to promote racism.

the tension between individual and community--isn't that what art-life is all about? :)

Sure S, music has a fascinating place in racial history, especially in the States. But to return to the original point, how does that affect my conduct as a musician that is making 'black' music? I think it is as simple as music is music. Tarantino takes inspiration from the East, Lucas takes inspiration from Italy, Gaugin takes inspiration from the Pacific, the Beatles take inspiration from India and Indian artists take inspiration from black artists. So?

crazy discussion going on in these threads, but i can't say i'm surprised. hip hop TODAY is a worldwide, cultural and musical phenomonem with all of the baggage that comes with it. of course, it's rooted in black protest music from the 70s in the bronx, but i think what some of the point of the post is that it has become expression music for people of all colors across the globe. i think you end up having to take music for what it is to you.

i for one, LOVE the aspect of the "borrowing" that is prevalent in hip hop. i've been turned on to so much other music just by nature of what i'm currently listening to has sampled. so like bong breaker said, "if they nick a desi hook for a catch tune", i don't care...as long as i like it. music is sooooo derivative (and hopefully not in the non-artistic kavvya kind of way). but when a producer can take a sample, chop it, loop it, layer it, and just do what he does...i think that's artisic...even if he's not working with entirely original material. something like the late great J. Dilla...you HAVE to respect what he does. so i'm sure there will be even MORE of this desi sampling in the future, and i'm sure some of it will be hot, and some of it will be a feeble attempt at cashing in on a bollywood-inspired trend.

if you want to be a hip hop listener, then just enjoy whatever floats your boat. if you're going to be a student of the culture, then know it's history, respect it's evolution, and have an open mind to its continued growth...irrespective or class, color, creed.

p.s. nice doom reference neha

But to return to the original point, how does that affect my conduct as a musician that is making 'black' music?

I think it's case by case, right? If you feel honest as a person taking a particular sample and using it as a hook or doing hip hop or whatever, then I trust you. Based on your posts here, I can't imagine that you're trying to co-opt people's pain or otherwise disrespecting them or using them for duplicitous ends because that's not what you sound like.

But not everyone's like you. I mean there are desi (and Latino and East Asian and...) versions of Snow and Vanilla Ice around (not just in music but everywhere), and sometimes they get away with it because they're not White. And the reason for that is that unsuspecting people are not necessarily conscious of what's going on--or care.

For example, look at it the other way around from this Village Voice article about ABDs, largely of the Sepia Mutiny demographic, reacting to hip hop:

Raje, singing on both "The Bounce" with Jay-Z and Slum Village's "Disco (Remix)," definitely feels the responsibility to represent. "When the R. Kelly video ['Snake'] came out, everybody called me," she says from the studio at 2 a.m. "One minute R. Kelly is holding a sitar and the next minute they're belly dancing with a veil across the mouth. My answer to that is I'm coming out to let them know what the Indian culture is."

Now that R. Kelly video is a good example of Orientalism (maybe unintentional--I don't know the circumstances). Whereas the Jay-Z/Punjabi-MC collaboration was a good pop-culture anti-war song :) So one pissed me off, and the other doesn't.

but when a producer can take a sample, chop it, loop it, layer it, and just do what he does...i think that's artisic

I mentioned Kraftwerk's legacy to hip hop. Now, those of you that haven't heard of the Amen break - and those that have - please listen to this fantastic audio clip. It's superb and a lesson in why mixing and matching is how music should be.

I got Madvillainy out after I mentioned him above and I forgot he samples a Bollywood film! And the circle is complete...

you should all go listen to josh console, btw. Try this version of Galang (mp3) that exploits Super Mario's struggles.

Nice, Terence, gotta have my Doom!

Can I also say that Danger Mouse is going to save American hiphop from itself? Because it's true.

Didn't see your last message someone else. OK you mention those two examples - the same one pissed me off. Why? Not because of orientalism, but because of Raje Shwari's complicity. It's why I get ticked off with desi actors wearing turbans with no beards, they should speak up. OK perhaps Raje didn't want to kick up a fuss, I can understand. She was new on the scene and she's a dreadful singer. But she was damned in my eyes for doing what I can't stand - stealing. She thieved No. 1 Punjabi lyrics from Chori Chori Chupke Chupke, so I will dislike whatever she does. It's not the same as sampling in my eyes, as she created nothing new.

Orientalism exists, we'll have to live with that. Perhaps it's our duty to change it. Many commercial hip hop artists probably don't know the capital of Canada, so I hardly expect them to be mindful of Indian music. Erick Sermon created a nonsensical track for those that understand Hindi. But snake charmers, fakirs and bellydancers don't bother me. So what if some paedo musician portrays India as some mystical fairy land. Mundian is the track that most think heralded desis arriving. Oh but wait! It sampled an 80s American TV show theme. If we continually expect musicians to explain all their influences music will be stifled. You're just offended by the belly dancers because it's your culture. Did R. Kelly's other track Thoia Thoing annoy you? It had more orientalism in the video, just not India. In Japan they still have a minstrel show. They black up and sing, yassah they surely do. I don't get offended easily, so I'm not fussed what videos have in them. What fucks me off is Indian music videos do just the same.

Snow and Vanilla Ice were ripoffs, but so what? I still like Ice Ice Baby and Informer! I'll upload my Rice Rice Baby cover some day.

Dude that MIArio mashup is awesome. I own an obscene amount of Mario remixes, that's a new one. Thanks! But...did Josh Console research baile-Tamil-Japanese remices beforehand? ;)

uhhh...with ghetto pop life and they grey album in '04, mouse and the mask last year, and st. elsewhere about to drop (mine's on pre-order. boo-yaaaa!), DM is definitely making waves...

now we just need sammy from the karmacy boys to get us some new music so we get some strong desi producers getting heard too...

I think that if anyone does something out of love, and not for money or fame or other less noble reasons, that it is hard to criticize them for it. If a rapper from another culture uses rap to further his social program, how can anyone look at this as derogatory or negative? It would be like us saying that no one should read Indian scriptures or see our movies if they aren't Indian also.

At the same time, while we might appreciate and even employ the tools of African-American culture, such as hip-hop, we can never suppose that the direction that we take is somehow better or more appropriate. As Ranjit pointed out, most American music (blues, jazz r & B, rock n roll) are all developed heavily from the collective experience of African-Americans. If it is possible to have a cultural ownership, it is unquestionably theirs. It is worth pointing out that most of the market for socially concious rap is not African Americans, but white people. Clearly, a element that does not include the people who produce and developed the genre are now attempting to classify what is the "appropriate" direction of the movement. It's fine to add your voice to the chorus, but that doesn't mean that you get to decide what everyone else sings. I hate commercial rap, and I find it demeaning to black and white people. But I could say that about nearly everything on TV and from Hollywood. The only difference is that they are controlled by white people, so no one blames them for setting the bar of morality dangerously low.

alot of the people involved in south asian hiphop-- including Chee-- have real-life stories worth telling. it's not all the crappy bling, me-and-my-crew-of-30-dudes-repping-queens stuff you usually see at the india day afterparties.

(oh, the india day afterparties....)

anyway. some promotion for the good friends of mine who were instrumental in organizing that party:

and, in all truth-- a lot of good music to be found on the following sites.

nomadicwax.com
www.myspace.com/djboo
nomadic sounds interview on WBAI w/ Dave Sharma, DJ rekha, and Chee Malabar is up at www.nomadicwax.com
www.himalayanproject.com

Abhi--
Great post. Being a rap and hip hop lover myself, I have always noticed that so called "gangsta rap" gets lots of play in the corporate media (as well as at the White House, when Senators accuse rap of bringing demise to America's youth), but not the truly political rap. And the rap that deals with politics and social realities is great, with profound and precise insights. I suppose we don't hear much of it for the reasons you point out; plus, I don't think eloquent and profound political rap would sit well with white corporate America.

Brownfrown--

Do you think that hip hop is a race thing or a class thing?
There are a lot of privilaged brown kids who get into rap and hip hop and get blinged, pimped, iced out and ahem, "front" like they're from the ghetto when they're from some cushy suburb and have their parents paying every last expense till there are 32 years old. However, in a lot of ways, that's also the direction that hip hop and rap have gone in. So much of it has become almost exclusively about the hos and the conspicuous consumption. Like any multi-billion dollar industry is bound to be.

Yes, I think that there are elements of race and class in hip hop and rap. Also, there are race and class elements in ALL types of music as well. I agree with you about Desi Yuppies, rap and their race relations with others, particularly Blacks. I myself come from the non yuppy Desi socio-economic stratum, and I have always been somewhat bewildered by kids from, say Diamond Bar or Orange Country, CA, who live in upper middle class/upper class neighborhoods, frequent private schools, and see Blacks in an extremely negative light (I've heard way too many comments) but will have Tupac blasting from their Mercedes that their parents have bought them and emulate stereotypically "black manners". Maybe they would like to appear "hardcore" but do not want to renounce the social and economic luxuries that privelege can afford them. Or perhaps because they are neither Black nor White? I don't know.

Actually, come to think of it, someone should really conduct a sociological inquiry. The best places I'd suggest are Diamond Bar, CA, any city in Orange County, CA, and the Westwood portions of LA. There, you'll find some great material.

Bong Breaker--
Yes, whoever is good is good, I don't really care what the background of the person is.

Ranjit, GujuDude:
Most American music comes from African Americans: heartily concurred! We should definately acknowledge this; at the same time (and this comment doesn't speak to you two specifically but just in general), I don't think music should be boxed into ethnic categories because the truth is, everything's always been mixed and coopted. Mind you, I'm not a big fan of globalization, but is "Indian" music purely "Indian"? Obviously there are traces of music that probably originated from places nearby the subcontinent (back in the day when there wasn't mass communications).

Neha--
As another fellow Gujarati, your comment makes me grab the table:

There's Gujarati rap?

Are you serious? Patel Rap? What do they rap about? Life in the gam, sunder chokriyo from the gam? :)

Lastly, in terms of the the "orientalization" evident in music- agreed. But what about Hindi music? All the "westernization" going on? Yes, there are different power dynamics that are embodied in "orientalization" and "westernization" respectively. But I am unsure as to how much we should make of it when we connect with music. Anyway, a random point: do you guys know we have a true and veritable Bollywood Empire? Everybody and their mummyji listens to Bollywood music and films. When I was in Morocco, Turkey, Turks and Moroccans, as well as my Arab friends knew more about Hindi music and films than I do. And get this: by virtue of watching exclusively Hindi films, Moroccans and Turks speak perfect Bollywood Hindi.

Sigh. Leave it to Desis to politicize everything (but which I like).

oh, Neha, I forgot to add:

but my guju uncles and auntys love that shit. Ya think I should sit them down with some Kool Herc or some 2 Live Crew for a bit of fun?

I think you should start them off nice and slow-- a bit of EZ- E from back in the day, and gradually get nastier.

it's not all the crappy bling, me-and-my-crew-of-30-dudes-repping-queens stuff you usually see at the india day afterparties.

I was thinking...

Music that strums the strings of our soul and converses with our unspoken thoughts is usually a product of socio-economic struggles, isn't it? I mean, look at American music. We have all established that the origins of hip hop, rap, jazz, and rock are largely the fruits of African Americans. Some have concurred that rap and hip hop, as well as other forms of art- poetry, and so on-- have been the result of people negotiating with their lot in life. This is not to say all music, obviously, because look at corporate music: that kind of stuff is very standardized and not so profound, like Britney Spears. This music is mass produced. But powerful music, which is not always mass produced, tends to be born from artists who are able to speak to us, point things out to us, and give us food for thought-- people who have been through some raunchy crap in their lives (some artists who ended up becoming mainstream though, like Tupac, started off with some really deep shit. Even once they got into the corporate media world, artists like Tupac and Snoop have produced indicting commentaries on the social realities of the US; but these songs rarely made it mainstream radio, with the exception of "Changes" by Tupac).

So maybe powerful music comes out of struggles. I'm thinking of ghazals too, of which I am a big fan. Some of the best ghazals that are guaranteed to get you teary-eyed are not mass produced, and are sung by dudes that come from humble backgrounds.

Maybe I'm wrong, though. Any thoughts?

we can never suppose that the direction that we take is somehow better or more appropriate.

Agreed.

As Ranjit pointed out, most American music (blues, jazz r & B, rock n roll) are all developed heavily from the collective experience of African-Americans. If it is possible to have a cultural ownership, it is unquestionably theirs.

Not agreed. Music evolves, and at some point cultural 'ownership' (don't like that concept) may change. Jazz is definitely a very international genre now, for instance. However, I would watch out for cultural 'takeover' when it's being used in a power game. In general, I am all for cultural exchange and evolution.

"It's easier for Americans to buy into that than it is to look in the mirror and say, 'some of the social policies and institutional hierarchies are messed up'."

Both in and outside of the US, it seems that expression through music or hip hop is controlled by the the degree of pervasiveness of political issues in realm of the money-wielding audience. In the US, pop star "rappers" who may have started out in the projects could have faced social issues in their lives almost as real and raw as anyone in Tanzania or Kenya, but often adapt to cater to their socially-smug mass audience with the latest hot tracks for clubbing, driving, or working out -- none of which reward political wit over catchy rhymes and addictive beats. Of course it is more complicated than that simple statement, and besides the extremes of gangsta and crunk, there can exist such things as commercial semi-policical alternative hip hop, suburban hip hop, etc. In the US and other countries, ease of other means of political expression, social status of the mass listeners, freedom of speech or lack of it, and "rhythm" / musical tradition of the society will play their roles on the types of hip hop produced. In general, however, I do think the degree of impact political issues have on the middle classes in various countries affects the importance and frequency of social/political expression through hip hop.

That said, within South Asia, Sri Lanka and Nepal seem to be leading the ride on the hip-hop wave. Most of these acts are poppy and to some extent follow the US commercial model they emulate (OK, they might substitute grills and hos with like, heartache and love and stuff), but the frequency of at least mentioning social/political issues seems to be greater (I'd be more sure if I understood what they were saying, or could find more underground acts). Sure, (besides their obvious political situations) this may be due to greater overall popularity of nationally-produced rap because of lesser Bollywood craze, demand for nation/language-specific music, or just the effect of a handfull of savvy producers having wide impact on the relatively small national/diasporic populations. In any case, it does seem the political situation of the country does affect at least the popularity of commercial rap, and possibly even the frequecy of "as-intended" social/political hip hop.

Now for a few links for entertainment value ... they might kill everything I've just said because they're still commercial (they even have videos for their MTV-generation targets), but don't roll your eyes yet =p ... it's a start, and I'm sure there are some more daring underground acts below the surface in Sri Lanka and Nepal, if only one knew where to look.

Krishan - J-town Story
Sarad Singh - Prashna
Nirnaya - Ma Nepali

no one's mentioned Outlandish yet, so defn check them out if wanna hear hip hop with a msg.

wow

check the link for Himalayan Project in the OP - they're good -

thing i see the most is desis puttin down other desis. i mean every desi dude doesnt know shit about the other one and hes like look hes a wannabe. like how the hell do u kno. one of my cusins is with the latino kings. dude is crazy and at the local gurudwara i heard this one girl like o hes a wannabe. im like apart from the juvy record the gang, the nine in his closet, im sure he is. im not saying everyone go start commiting crimes and everyone should shoot others but im jst sayin why do desis never fail to judge and criticize. i read some dude talkin abt deep and bohemia and kid skilly and how they talk abt ghettos. well i kno deep cuz i used to live in houston and OCP is the name of his gangs. every desi in houston knos abt them. some of them are in jail..but again people who donno em r prolly like omg wut a wannabe. same wit kid skilly hes half mexican how do u kno hes not killin n dealing in a ghetto. man desis gotta chill with the crticizing. people some times ask me i dress ghetto or wutever. im jst like man i stick to minorities cuz i can relate to them more and they show me love to. if theres 10 whites in a school 2 mexican and one indian, u. where wud u look to fit in? im thinkin the minorities. neways, my point is that some desi rappers r real good. the ones comin out of canada n stuff r good too like teflno don. i dont doubt how gangsta they r cuz i think we all kno abt the desi gangstas in b.c.

p.s. Uk Mc's (well most) suck some major ass lol. by the way this is different criticizing. not the bad kind i was talkin about lol.

Check out my Ho...... MC HardKaur.... she is sick and phat man....

Desi Thugs

MC hardkaur...needs to get rid of the kaur? cuz i dont think shes exactly the best representation for kaurs. lol hard kaur cant even say bhangra rite lol and man she needs to work on her rhymes. thsa my opinion some people might dig it but she is included in my previous comment of how Uk Mc's suck major ass lol

There is huge and growing movement of Palestinian hip-hop out in Gaza and the West Bank (in addition to the diaspora). Certainly most, if not all, of their style is political. Check out the new documentary on them - Slingshot Hip Hop, http://slingshothiphop.com.

foxy, listen pls: Hard kaur will forever have a special place in my heart for bottling a racist guy halfway through a conversation I was having with her. Now that's worthy of respect! And one of my mates has been in love with her for ages so I keep hearing her praises. Admittedly, her music is iffy.

Cheap Ass Desi

Neha--
As another fellow Gujarati, your comment makes me grab the table:

There's Gujarati rap? It's a dying form. Back in the early 90s this dude called Devang Patel released a tape on the down lo called Patel Rap. It was HUGE underground, a real cult classic at kitty parties and on long voyages through gujarat. The "rap" was awful but the collection included a superduper guju version of "we didn't start the fire", "aah jo kevo kaayar" (or summat like that). Patel later 'sold out' to Bollywood and turned his number van hit "Mari Marzi" (apache indian rip off) into "Meri Marzi" for the besht film in the universe, Gambler. From there he went on to covering such brilliant acts as Lou Bega and Venga Boys. Look the old guju stuff up on soulseek, limewire, etc and do yo bad guju self proud! And by proud I mean you will never recover from the shame. But I can't lift this burden on my own dammit!

Oh god, Neha, I think I'm going to lose control...
Was the rap in Gujarati? And the beats, what were they like? It's wasn't Navrati and Garba music, was it?

Who says Gujaratis can't have their own beat?! Take that, Bhangra!!

Don't have sharam...Patel Rap can't be worse than gangsta Bhangra (Just kidding, everybody, just kidding).

lots of african hiphop floating around online, here's one source.

appreciate the contributions re: various forms of desi hiphop, palestinian, etc etc. hiphop has worked well around the world because the musical foundations (MC + DJ) are easy to replicate, require little investment and honor the most universal and versatile instrument, the human voice. it also works because it has a role in giving voice to the previously voiceless, which is something that people around the world can relate to and emulate.

with reference to points made earlier in the thread, i would hope that folks consider american hiphop with the same degree of openness at they consider international hiphop. the whole "hiphop sucks nowadays" discourse annoys me no end. first of all, generalizing about hiphop is of little use now, late in the third decade of the existence of the form. hiphop has splintered, merged, morphed, cross-pollinated, etc., way beyond useful generalization. three decades after chuck berry and elvis presley, "rock" had produced punk, new wave, soft-rock/easy listening, hardcore, AOR, arena-rock, glam, etc etc etc. a lot of it sucked, a lot of it was brilliant, and a lot of it, hey, just appealed to different ears.

meanwhile, hiphop has infiltrated and added techniques, content, styles, rhythms, etc. to any number of other genres. why is it that when hiphop mixes with rock, we think of that are rock? when hiphop mixes with R&B, we think of that as hiphop? when you listen to mary j. blige, you're hearing music that could not have happened without hiphop. so you might say, well, it isn't hiphop because it's not rapping over a beat. i'd reply, rapping over a beat isn't hiphop either, according to connoisseurs. it's rapping. rapping is a vocal style that you can bring to many genres of music. the orthodox definition of hiphop is that it is a specific culture with several core components: MCing, DJing, graf, and b-boying; some add further elements to do with consciousness, economics, education, etc. by that standard, very little of the hiphop you hear and dislike on the radio is actually hiphop.

thinking of music in categories is great if you're a record label or a commercial radio station or an editor assigning stories. it's not useful if you're an actual listener. musicians themselves almost always have much broader listening tastes than do their committed fans. right now, if you came up with hiphop back when it was a more concentrated, focused concept, you can choose to be agitated about what is labeled hiphop today, or you can actually engage the music and start to figure out the differences, the local styles,
the social and cultural facts they represent. you can listen to the atlanta and houston styles, for instance, and understand what makes them different; where their lyrical preoccupations come from; what's up with their musical concepts (e.g. snapping in atlanta, screwed and chopped in houston) and what the history of those innovations is; and determine what you like versus what you don't like from each style. you can go on to think about the rise of southern sounds and what that means about popular culture. and so forth.

if i'm feeling nostalgic about "true" hiphop from back in the day i'm not going to listen to tired-ass common with his whiny voice and preoccupations, a B+ rapper if there ever was one; i'll go back in my collection and listen to rakim.

peace

Who says Gujaratis can't have their own beat?! Take that, Bhangra!!

I know it ain't rap (or anywhere near) but Raghav of the untamed hair did a song to a garba/dandia (delete as appropriate, it all means the same to me) beat, Ain't Nobody.

I used to know the dandia champion of Mumbai, fo' shizzle, and he taught me some badass tricks. I even own my own set now, ch-chingcho.

Thanks for the contribution Sid, good to read. I had an argument about the elements of hip hop the other day, with an American no less, concerning whether beatboxing should be included. In fact KRS One said there are 9 elements, but I can't remember them all - street entrepreneurs, clothes, language and something.

I used to know the dandia champion of Mumbai, fo' shizzle, and he taught me some badass tricks. I even own my own set now, ch-chingcho.

Bong Breaker-- even if you know some bad-ass tricks, it'll probably be nothing compared to what I could do. I am the queen of dandiyas, I was born with a pair of dandiyas in my hand. I could play anyone like a drum... :)

Sid-- I completely agree, American hip hop and rap need not be the constant point of reference in global music. But I have to admit, though, that some mainstream Italian and French rap kinda brings a smile to my face... but not in a mean way.

Oh I'm not claiming I'm any great dandiathlete, but for a half white Bengali, I'm probably hot shit.

What do you mean about French & Italian rap bringing a smile to your face but not in a mean way? You like it or you think it's corny? French rap is awesome. There's so much about France and in particular Paris and Marseilles that I love, French hip hop culture is very different and ostensibly wider and more inclusive. Italian rap, on the other hand, I don't particularly like - to be fair I don't understand it which can't help.

Bong Breaker--

Sorry, but I don't think you can beat a 100% Gujarati who was born to garba... ;)

Re: Fr. and It. rap bringing a smile to my face.... hey, have a smoke and relax!! I meant that mainstream
rap, particularly Italian rap (of which I perfectly understand) sometimes is kinda corny, like there is this one called "Pappone" which means "Pimp", and the video is alla Notorious B.I.G. but in Italian. I couldn't help but smile there. Nothing malicious, though, in my smile.

for a half white Bengali, I'm probably hot shit.

bb - half-white bengalis are hot shit by definition! (especially the ones who listen to hiphop...)

Sorry, but I don't think you can beat a 100% Gujarati who was born to garba... ;)

I know! I never claimed I could, hence the opening line to my last post :)

MC Solaar is as mainstream as you get in France, he's been likened to Will Smith in popularity across the board (not style) and he's one of the best rappers in the world. I'll believe what you say about Italian rap as I'm not very knowledgeable.

there is this one called "Pappone" which means "Pimp",

Now that many desi music videos have jumped on the bling bandwagon, can you imagine someone over there assimilating the whole "pimp" thing too and start using the word "Dalaal" instead ? The mind boggles.....*joking*

Actually, Abhishek Bachchan came pretty close to emulating the pimp-bling image in his video for "Right Here Right Now" from Bluffmaster.

Bong Breaker,

Can you spin a dandia in your hand like a drumstick ? I always thought that looked pretty cool -- there was usually some flash git doing that during the times I last went to some garbas (extremely long time ago).

Woahoho, Sid! That was wicked, bip bip, buk buk, fire fire and all that!

Oh god, Neha, I think I'm going to lose control...

I wish that beat were dandia styles but I don't remember the Patel tune being very beat-heavy. I'm with BB on this tip:

I know it ain't rap (or anywhere near) but Raghav of the untamed hair did a song to a garba/dandia (delete as appropriate, it all means the same to me) beat, Ain't Nobody.

French hiphop is crazy good, they're coming out with some wicked shit nowadays from France, Northern Africa, Quebec. MCs like TTC, Omnikron, and DJs like my beloved Ghislain Poirier and DJ Rupture are doing great things. Wish I could understand what they were on about, sometimes I hit up Ghis for a translation but his english ain't perfect so things get lost. There's always google I suppose.

When I was 11 I entered a bhajan competition

French hiphop is crazy good, t

he used to look so nice with side-parted hair in his kurta.

Neha,
The years of bitter shame I felt as a child just disappeared. It seems that at least one person would have accepted me how I was.
:)

That's the badger Neha, jig away. So you lost a competition to him eh? I've been getting revenge for you. For you Neha, for you. Every party he's at (and that seems to be a lot) we play 'How can Rohin annoy Raghav today?' I'm the world champion, but seeing as how only I play that's not hard.

He does have a great voice, just wish he'd stop dancing

One of the classics was when a friend and I flanked him (that sounds dodgy) whilst he was trying to dance with some girls and we Raghav-danced, complete with wagging finger and baseball 'safe' manoeuvres. He's a nice chap though. You like TTC? Hmm, I'm not sure. I don't follow everything either (as I'm sure a lot of English speakers don't follow everything Twista says!) but I once had to translate Au Pays du Gandhi by Solaar in its entirety. I think it was parkour that led me to the French hip hop scene. That and La Haine. Ha dhaavak just hit refresh and saw your mention of pk too. I don't think rap's the only music for it, the UK boys are more keen on rock and d&b.

Jai, yeah I can do that but my left hand's iffy. One day I want to be up there with this brother.

Jai, yeah I can do that but my left hand's iffy. One day I want to be up there with this brother.

I think I just lost brain cells watching that video...WHO THE HECK videos their hand? Spinning pens???? Since the advent of youtube and google video, nothing is safe.

was some dude jst trynna diss bhangra or somethin lol..i kno u gujrati man but dawg garba cant be compared to bhangra..just cuz its liek the level of energy is so different. some gujus might get mad cuz its their thing but man i kno a lotta gujus that dig bhangra anyday over garba or something but i dont kno any punjabis listenin to garba lol. neways im not trynna hate jst had to say somethin for that reply dat dude made.

p.s. bhangra is gangsta man because jatts r gangsta lol

Jai, yeah I can do that but my left hand's iffy. One day I want to be up there with this brother.

I think I just lost brain cells watching that video...WHO THE HECK videos their hand? Spinning pens???? Since the advent of youtube and google video, nothing is safe.

That (talented?) person has too much time on his (brown) hands!

crap, I just plagiarized Taz - unintentionally! damn you, blockquote!

Aw taz, did you ever go to school with Malaysian/Singaporean/Korean/Japanese/Chinese boys? If not you won't realise that pen-spinning is not only a rite-of-passage but also a pastime, a religion and a sport. Chemistry lessons were dedicated to who could spin an ink eradicator in the most imaginative way. It's like table tennis - Indians are good, but never quite as good as their East Asian cousins.

ha! for all ye googlevideo fans... here's some parkour for you... and i really dont know what the french guy's saying (starts somewhere around minute 2) - but it totally gets me all bothered by minute 4 - want to go swing like a demon from the trees... -sigh- then i realize i'm not 20 no more and should stick to little granny moves -

Dhaavak I hate to be an ass, but that is lousy parkour. In fact, it's not really parkour at all, it's tricking. First rule of parkour videos - if the soundtrack is from the Matrix, particularly Clubbed to Death by Robb Dougan, don't watch. Stick to stuff by Sebastien Foucan, David Belle or Cyrill Rafaelli (and YouTube's better). Interestingly you saw one of my films the other day dhaavak, my first ever movie was parkour-themed!

Metric the pen spinner is Korean I think..?

Neha, The years of bitter shame I felt as a child just disappeared. It seems that at least one person would have accepted me how I was

I've been getting revenge for you. For you Neha, for you. Every party he's at (and that seems to be a lot) we play 'How can Rohin annoy Raghav today?'

Ya, I dig TTC, actually I dig a lot of whatever Big Dada throws my way.

Dhaavak - it's ON, my friend, me + you + queen/spadina + cardboard mat + granny moves + random garba clapping = DANCE FIGHT.

Korean? aah well - don't blame me for being confused. Here I go into a content-free, irrelevant comment: My granny had rather small eyes and no hair on her legs or arms, so as a youngster I would say, "Nana is Indian and Nani is Chinese" and would get corrected.. Screwed up my differentiation skills ever since.

damn, sparked a big debate eh? I have so much to say, but let me say this:

"I have white friends who are totally into Yoga, but are not willing to interact with too many other aspects of Indian culture. Does that make them 'fake'? I don't think so."

GIVE ME A BREAK. YOUR WHITE FRIENDS ARE OVERT CULTURAL CO-OPTERS, AND YOU ARE ENCOURAGING THEM TO DO SO. CONGRATULATIONS, YOU ARE A BROWN SAHIB.

hey bb to me it all looks like tricks :-)- beyond my reach - the best i can do is jump over fences and trash bins - so candidly am a worm in this ecosystem - will look up those giys on youtube

ok... my dirty confession - i've seen like one half- matrix movie - nodded off mid way in i think the last one and woke up when this guy was getting gouged by the metal earthworms - but i have picked up enough pop-culture references to sound knowledgeable in company tho' - i completely know what you wre going for in your movie, and quite enjoyed it

YOU ARE A BROWN SAHIB.

... anyway.

So, I guess my original point is not that culture is static or anything like that. My point is that sometimes desis act like we have inalienable unadulterated rights to Black music and culture.

I can't speak for the UK. You guys actually do have a different sociopolitical landscape there. I know Asians and Blacks have mad tension but I also know there's some connections there that are different from what happens in the US.

Whoa, maybe attitudes to hip hop are very different across the Pond brownfrown/Ranjit. I just don't get why it's important to come from the ghetto to be a rapper, I don't care as long as you're good.

Definitely not my point at all. Hip-hop in the US has come from a wide strata of class backgrounds. Tribe Called Quest is undoubtedly middle-class hip-hop. Common grew up in a middle-class family. There are dynamics behind all of that too, of course...

My point is not class, it IS race. Race is the bottom line in America. So we need to pay attention to what has happened to Black art and culture historically in America. IT'S BEEN STOLEN. So many Black art movements have been stolen by whites, co-opted, and sold to mass audiences. Whites profit all around and the original creators of the music don't.

So, as desis, we don't have the power to co-opt the way whites do. We are people of color. So we're not functioning by the same rules. BUT, are we serving a white supremacist co-opting system when we parade around acting like anyone has total rights to hip-hop -- all in the name of "art"? Doesn't that encourage co-optation?

Sorry if this is less articulate than my last comment, I'm writing at work.

Cheers dude. That was just a dumbass pisstake, it's just one scene from the lamest movie ever made. But lots of fun and we showed it at uni with my pk/breaking one on a two storey high screen with a big audience, was awesome. The other stuff I do involves more work, but less gags.

Please tell me you've seen The Matrix (1) though? Sod the other two, but you've seen one right? RIGHT?!

ok some recommendations before dinner (I take back the YouTube superiority, GV seems to have more): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

Listen Again:
Yo--
I' am not a dude, but a chokri; and even though I am Gujarati, I love Bhangra, as I grew up with it (I have had close ties with a large number of Poon-jis).

Are you hating?

Look, you claim that Poon-ji Jats are gangsta,-- BUT THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES. Didn't you read Neha's post? There are Gujurati gangstas as well-- look at Patel Rap!!

Don't get me into talking about the genre "gangsta" Bhangra, or I'll have a few choice words for you :)

Confession- I'm posting without reading the thread...

So I watched this amazing trailer last night on Hip Hop in the middle east. It is SERIOUSLY dope.

It sparked a conversation on is punk political? Is hip hop political?

I love outlandish! I was the biggest fan of Guantanomo...

We also watched this video of Ecko tagging Air Force One...

I'm listening to Saul Williams right now, and it reminds me of how he opened for Mos Def at USC, and there was a group of white kids with coke bottles in the air singing along with his racially political songs. It was ...uh, interesting...

(Now I'm going to read the thread... ;-) )
Speaking of Co-opting race and culture- check out this Regatone artist, he's like HUGE, all the chicano chicks love him- But he's full on Pakistani and moved to So Cal, but I don't think anyone knows that he's South Asian. I just outed him. sorry. http://www.myspace.com/caponee

Dhaavak - it's ON, my friend, me + you + queen/spadina + cardboard mat + granny moves + random garba clapping = DANCE FIGHT.

Please tell me you've seen The Matrix (1) though? Sod the other two, but you've seen one right? RIGHT?!

How about Neha hosts a Toronto meetup, and she and Dhavaak provide the entertainment ;)

How about Neha hosts a Toronto meetup, and she and Dhavaak provide the entertainment ;)

It's already in the works my friend - going to be the hawtest party ever!

surely not the horseshoe, eh? - or is it some underground spot

We should have it a roller-rink! Or are roller rinks too pervy for people our age??

I mean old school style, less money less problems, out in the open on the footpath. I've got my bike leggings with neon green down the side, a hypercolour sweatshirt, and shiny fake gold things.

Ennis, come to Toronto, see how much fun we have?!

Meetup is a great idea...after this weekend (bf's dad's coming to town) I'm going to get my act together an organize one for whoever is in town...

Abhi - didn't you tell her about the rule that you have to be single to host a meetup? Otherwise, as with the Beatles, "our fans will be disappointed" ;)

Speaking of which, I'll be in NYC for a few weeks at the end of May and beginning of June. I should host one there, now that the Vij is gone ...

err...by 'bf' i mean 'best friend'. honest. :-)

familiar with THE1SHANTI? He's currently providing the necessary ambient noise for take home testing. i swear it helps me focus.

a drop from his bio:

THE1SHANTI got his start at the age of eight, battling kids on a Washington, D.C. elementary school playground. Rapping became more than just a way for the kid, dressed by his mom in a three-piece suit, to not get beat up. Soon, his childhood survival tactic became his culture, says the New York-based rapper.

Growing up, THE1SHANTI was always "a bit different. a bit gifted," he writes in one of his autobiographical songs. Born in America to Indian parents, there didn't seem to be a place in the American mainstream for someone who wasn't black or white. But hip-hop offered a home. [source]

We should have it a roller-rink! Or are roller rinks too pervy for people our age??

I went to my first roller disco a few months ago. Don't worry - it was a private function so everyone was my age, no little girlies to scare. Man that shit is cool, especially when you turn up with a girlfriend with pig tails and hot pink skates! But kind of gets dull once you're done showing off. There are few people who enjoy showing off as much as me, but yet I kind of tired of it after a few hours. But hell, if the TO meetup turns out to be the first meetup on wheels, with a Neha-dhaavak dance-off, I'll frikking fly there.

Ranjit I still don't agree with you, but cheers for the clarification.