May 06, 2006
That Silver Isn’t VegetarianFood
While I was sitting in the mandap during my wedding a couple of weeks ago now, I was a bit concerned about all of the Indian sweets I was consuming. It seemed that every two minutes another mithai was being prodded in my direction, and the thought of all the ghee, the sugar, the gor (molasses) etc that I must have inhaled was a bit frightening. It wasn’t until last week when I read these articles in India-West (Link 1 and Link 2), I realized that as a vegetarian, I should have been concerned with something else. According to the story,
Varak, that gossamer-thin silver sheet that covers Indian mitthai, is made by placing thin metal strips of silver between the steaming intestines of a slaughtered animal or its hide and hammered into a thin foil. A substantial number of cattle, sheep and goat are killed specifically for the industry, according to animal rights activist Maneka Gandhi.
I used to think it was real silver that was just wittled down, perhaps by a machine? Apparently, there is no such thing as machine-made varak, so chances are, if you are vegetarian and you eat mithai or anything else with that silver gossamer on it, you are unwittingly eating an animal by-product. It pains me to think that many unknowing vegetarians, who perhaps think Indian sweets are vegetarian-friendly, have been consuming an animal by-product all these years. What’s worse is followers of the Jain religion, a religion that holds the notion of ahimsa or nonviolence in high regard, and the strictest of whom will wear a face-mask so as to not kill any living thing by breathing, have been using varak to decorate their “religious idols and the tirthankaras in their temples.”
I was enraged following the McDonalds controversey a few years back in which it was found that McDonalds was wrongfully telling customers their french fries were vegetarian, when in reality, the fries were frozen with a beef tallow additive, and the news in this article doesn’t make me much happier. While we all know that gelatin is found in marshmallows and gummy bears, I was surprised to see that certain cereals like Kellogg’s Frosted Mini-Wheats, actually contain gelatin, as does a now-former favorite of mine Lucky Charms. With the increasing popularity of vegetarianism, one would think a vegetarian friendly substitute for gelatin would have been created by now.
And while certain members of the food industry allege that it is impossible to synthesize gelatin, like John Magnifico, the technical service manager of Kraft Foods Atlantic Gelatin, others suggest the prohibitive cost of these substitutes make them unpopular choices for food manufacturers. Unbeknownst to me was that the substance agar-agar, which is derived from seaweed, is an existing alternative to gelatin, but is not regularly used vice gelatin because it costs about four times what gelatin costs. As a vegetarian consumer, I would pay the extra amount for gelatin-free favorites, as many consumers do to have the option of buying organic.
Sure, if you are dining out, part of the vegetarian’s risk is that some kind of meat might end up in your food. But knowing before hand what items are safe to eat, and what items aren’t is a big help. One of the stories I often heard was that Pizza Hut used a cheese which had beef in it. This could have been true, since rennet (an ingredient in many cheeses) can be derived from either animal sources or from fungal or bacterial sources. The usual source of rennet, according to the India-West story “is the fourth stomach of slaughtered, newborn calves.” Fortunately, “95 percent of the cheeses currently made in the U.S. is made with non-animal based rennet,” including the cheese used by Pizza Hut, Domino’s, Round Table, and Little Caesar’s.
I wonder now, like I wondered when the McDonald’s controversy erupted why the FDA does not require companies to label vegetarian foods as such. Just like Kosher items are required to have the K in a circle, it would do companies well to have a green leaf, or a big V in a circle for items deemed to be suitable for vegetarians. Perhaps this is something companies should do anyway, as a courtesy to its vegetarian clientele.
sajit on May 6, 2006 03:39 PM in Food · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
in england they are required to label the food as vegetarian gelatin, or if the rennet is animal based or not.. they should do it here.. no gummy bears, marshmallows, and all that other good stuff... sigh....
Sajit,
Companies in India are required to indicate whether the item is veg or non veg.
I first came to know about the behind varak from Heads & Tales (TV Show on animal rights hosted by Maneka Gandhi)
One fact that I have heard is that many cosmetics & toileteries (including after shave lotion) products are tested on animals in sometimes very cruel experiments. How true is that ?
Regards
chick pea: And no more Sharp Cheddar or Extra Sharp Cheddar cheese, frosted pop tarts, kellogs rice krispies treats cereal, or marshmallow fruit loops cereal.
Gaurav, The India West article mentions that Indian law required a "green seal certification" for all vegetarian food products. This is exactly the kind of thing we need here in the states.
And don't forget soap. For those who are applying vegetarianism to everything, I've noticed that the packaging on Ayurvedic soaps claim to "contain no animal fat" for the "religiously conscious". There are now halalsoaps available as well.
Don't forget how they use human hair-byproducts in BAGELS. gross gross gross...
Thanks, Taz. That was exactly what I readed right now :)
whoops, that should have read "needed to read" :)
I think soy lecithin can be used as sort of a replacement for gelatin as well. At least, it is used in place of gelatin in certain foods like come candies (like some jelly beans), chocolates, and cookies (I think Oreos used to contain lard, didn't it?).
Regarding the silver foil/animal intestines issue:
Has this practice been going on for centuries ? How the hell have they managed to get away with it (and keep it a secret) for so long ?
Considering how many vegetarians there are amongst Indians -- especially back in India itself -- and the fondness for mithai amongst desis, this is a pretty explosive scandal.
It's like the whole 1857 gun cartridge issue all over again, except on a massively wider scale.
Another vomit-inducing thought: on the same street where the local grocer that I frequent is located, there is a crematorium right next to a "Beef n' Ribs" set up; and I never know whether the smell of burning flesh is that of dead humans or dead cows....
For those who have read Gandhiji's autobiography entitled My Experiments with Truth, remember that as he was sailing towards England, Gandhiji had resorted to eating sweets because as a vegetarian, he firmly refused to eat meat.
Just like Kosher items are required to have the K in a circle
what is the status on these? i recall that NY state had an issue a year or two back because it is dicey for states to get involved with what exactly is kosher or not (since there are diff. standards). vegetarianism would be easier since people tend to agree with what animals and non-animals are. though as a point of curiosity, are mushrooms considered 'vegetarian' even though they aren't plants?
I think it gets confusing, but the most popular type of vegetarianism, or what I think is the most common connotation of what one considers a vegetarian is an ovo-lacto vegetarian, so a person who eats no meat, poultry, or seafood, but does take dairy and eggs. Many vegetarians in America consider mushrooms vegetarian.
Sajit,
I think in India usually (but not always) vegetarian is considered as lacto-vegetarian.
Actually a more accurate term is Saamish (Meat Eaters) & Niraamish (Non Meat Eaters)
I wonder now, like I wondered when the McDonalds controversy erupted why the FDA does not require companies to label vegetarian foods as such.
i think that a more practical solution would be to have a third party organization offer its imprimatur of 'vegetarianism' to companies which opt-in.
The Cashew mithai which come in shaped as diamonds have been our favorite and have always wondered what the silver sheet was made out of. Thanks for the great post.
Payal--yum, Kaju Katri, I know it well. I will have to soon re-learn it without the varak.
well..for vegetarians, this is bad. But, it's interesting what i heard in my South Asian history class(im not completely sure) - that Aryan Hindus used to eat beef. here is more on it http://vegorgmu.saffas1.com/site18.htm.
well..for vegetarians, this is bad. But, it's interesting what i heard in my South Asian history class(im not completely sure) - that Aryan Hindus used to eat beef. here is more on it http://vegorgmu.saffas1.com/site18.htm.
eurocentric tripe!
ET (19#)
????.
Razib (20#)
!!!!!!
Teehee, I thought I was the only one who made woeful puns :)
There was some controversy here when it emerged a butcher had been selling meat as halaal when it may not have been. They were slaughtered according to custom, i.e. the blood drained, but there was no incantation other than a tape playing. I think a whole urban legend grew out of this - that butchers didn't change their practices but simply played the namaaz or on auto-repeat. However this, which I assume is the original case, did change the way they slaughtered. Now when I go into my local supermarket - in a very white area - I have a halaal and kosher section.
My Telegu Hindu friend's mum insists that halaal meat tastes better so only buys that.
so what again is the point of having the silver in the sweets? does it contribute to the taste or something?
forget residency.. i need to find a way to make veggie cheap gelatin so i can eat my rice krispie treats and skittles in peace... dammit.
Thanks for this post, Sajit.
eurocentric tripe!
well...i just wanted to share what i heard in my class. So, it isnt bad for vegetarians????
ET (27#)
I think Rajib was being ironical.
Anyway what has Aryans got to do with the present post ??
Anyway what has Aryans got to do with the present post ??
Jai: Considering how many vegetarians there are amongst Indians -- especially back in India itself -- and the fondness for mithai amongst desis, this is a pretty explosive scandal.
It's like the whole 1857 gun cartridge issue all over again, except on a massively wider scale.
Historically, Hindus can be referred to as the successors of Dravidians and Aryans of India.
I think i was just following the whole discussion going on relating to the post.
First thing, shaadi mubarak! Second, a Hindu wedding is technically a puja, right? That makes it twice as bad to be eating animal by-products then.
Gaurav in #28 about beef-eating Aryans
It was probably brought up because vegetarianism (particularly cow sacredness) in Hinduism is so essentialized in the minds of both Hindus and non-Hindus. It's like saying, well if Hinduism is why you're so concerned about not eating meat, then you should know that your Aryan ancestors, the first Hindus, were beef-eaters.
I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, I actually do believe early Aryans were beef-eaters, but you're the one who mentioned in some other comment how Hinduism changes, and my subscription to Hinduism includes vegetarianism and cow sacredness. It's all good.
It was probably brought up because vegetarianism (particularly cow sacredness) in Hinduism is so essentialized in the minds of both Hindus and non-Hindus. It's like saying, well if Hinduism is why you're so concerned about not eating meat, then you should know that your Aryan ancestors, the first Hindus, were beef-eaters.
Is it??.. So what's the percentage of Hindus in India who are vegetarians..
So what's the percentage of Hindus in India who are vegetarians..
yes! i want a scholarly pointer to some information on this topic.
most hindus eat chicken..though.
yes! i want a scholarly pointer to some information on this topic.
I think the truth is around 75-90% of the Hindus in India are non-vegetarians.. I can say for sure in place like TN, it is closer to 85%..My view (just by observations): Only the Brahmins and a few upper castes are vegetarians..
I googled and found this link (again not a scientific poll) ...
Answer #3: Today, about twenty or thirty percent of all Hindus are vegetarians and the rest are not.
Summary
Through my forty years of presenting the eternal Truths of Hinduism, I have found that families who are vegetarian have fewer problems than those who are not. This is because when we eat meat, fish, fowl and eggs, we absorb the vibration of the instinctive creatures into our nerve system and this amplifies our own lower nature. Our lower nature is prone to fear, anger, jealousy, confusion, resentment and the like. We advise all members of my Saiva Siddhanta Church to be well-established vegetarians prior to initiation into mantram and then remain vegetarian afterward. However, we don't insist upon members becoming vegetarian if they are not seeking initiation.
Prepared for the July 4th, 1990 meeting of the youth of the Hindu Temple of greater Chicago, by Gurudeva, Sivaya Subramuniyaswami
Shruti (30#)
I objected because this post is about vegetarians and not Hindus, so the context did not really justify discussion on dietary habits of Vedic period.
Razib (32#)
From what I remember the percentage is around 20~25. However even for non vegetarians the percentage of meat in the whole diet should be generally less than other cultures.
Regards
right, i am curious about the distrib. of obligate and facultative veg. in india among hindus because some hindus have given me the impression that veg. is a trait of hinduism, but i know many hindus who eat chicken, fish, etc. i recall awhile back where there was a discussion of diwali as the hindu "christmas" and some bengali hindus objected since diwali isn't prominent in bengali. this is somewhat similar perhaps, regional differences might be reflected in the perception of what is, and isn't, "hindu."
Gaurav(#35)
This is a desi blog right?
"Whats worse is followers of the Jain religion, a religion that holds the notion of ahimsa or nonviolence in high regard, and the strictest of whom will wear a face-mask so as to not kill any living thing by breathing, have been using varak to decorate their religious idols and the tirthankaras in their temples.
i think we were on the right lines of discussion with the topic.
I have no numbers on this, but I have a feeling it's true. Fish and lamb too.
When I said the vegetarianism was essentialized, I was referring to belief, not everyday practice. Essense, existence...haha :)
I'm not even saying it is in fact "essentially" Hindu to be vegetarian, but most Hindus still avoid meat on puja days, right?
Rajib (36#)
While being vegetarian is not obligatory in Hinduism, nevertheless it is a prominent trait.
Also regional variation are there.
For example, while Brahmins are not supposed to eat meat, in Bengal Brahmins can eat fish.Same goes for Kerala (not sure)
In general in coastal areas Hindus do eat fish.
Consumption of chicken and other kinds of meat is in general from low to moderate.
Regards
PS
I love diaspora :-)
ET (37#)
Initially I thought it was a "desi" site but to my disappointment I found it is just a blog.
Regards
Indian Mithai is a little too sweet and is an acquired taste. Also most of the Indian Mithai has very strong flavors.
Rasgullas are the best in Indian Mithai though. I think I am going to get me some!
AMD (41#)
Rasgullas are troublesome to store, but I have heard they are good for digestion.
Regards
Haldirmans rosgullas taste delicious out of the can. I prefer to water down the sweet syrup with ice , serve chilled, yum.
For my ultra vegetarian mom, the idea of lipstick and other make up became foul too after she read about the animal fats used in production.
I had an argument with a Jain student while in high school about this same non-violence concept. Their statues are adorned in fresh pearls and the eyes are made of diamonds (often from troubled regions in the world). She didn't have an answer for me.
Does that mean that there is a line between those who are vegetarian when it comes to diet and rather wordly in other matters?
(I hope I am not out of context...cinco de mayo festivities have me super hung over..hehe)
I just also wanted to wish you congratulations on your marriage, Sajit.
Are you only the second mutineer to tie the knot? (I am also married)
Thanks Amardeep. Yes, I think it's just the two of us.
Yes, there may be some Hindus who eat meat, like Punjabi and Kashmiri Hindus.
But then, I have met some Sikhs who do not eat meat.
Gujarati Hindus do not eat meat. Most say that this is attributed to the heavy influence of Jainism in Gujuland.
Wonder if there are any Muslim sects that do not eat meat?? I think there is one, but I can't remember exactly what it is.
Amardeep beat me to it ... congrats on the wedding! That was the real point of this post, right? =)
Half of Driver's rant from the Hindu cows thread belongs here.
Strict vegetarianism is a prominent feature mainly only in Brahmanical Hinduism. In Tamil Nadu, at least, most people do eat meat, but as Gaurav said, meat consumption is here than in other countries. This is because meat is expensive, and most people can't afford to eat it every day. Chicken, mutton, and fish are very easy to come by, and they do some damn good stuff with all of them.
For all you South Indians or those of you of South Indian descent who were raised on vegetarian diets and have since branched out, a mutton curry egg dosai will probably blow your mind.
Cheap Ass Desi Shakahari: Some also attribute it to the influence of MK Gandhi. If I recall correctly, Gujarat also has a prohibition against alcohol in deference to him.
Sonia: Thanks. Yeah, that was the real point of the post. The two just ended up to go hand in hand.They do here in the UK, although vegetarianism is more prevalent amongst Vanyas/Banyas (Shahs etc) and those Gujaratis who are strict followers of the Swaminarayan sect.
That's my understanding of it too, and yes Sajit you're right about the alcohol prohibition back in Gujarat apparently being due to Gandhi's example.
Gujarat has a lot of messed up food related superstitions. I don't know if it's a Gujarati thing but my parents and relatives have a wide array of strange eating habits -
- My mom used to do this milk and fruit fast on Tuesdays where thats all she eats for lunch.
- My dad (who is from mumbai and occasionaly eats meat) used to do one on Saturdays where he skips lunch and has a large dinner.
- Also randomly holy days would pop up where they would make up new ones like not eating any grains.
- One of my grandmas is Jain and some days she used to do this fast where she eats nothing not even water also she never eats stuff that grows under ground like potatoes.
- I had a Swaminarayan uncle ate no garlic and onions because they are supposed to make you angry.
- My mom used to advise me not to eat beef during 'Shravan'.
Shruti
Surely that's in jest? You can't be serious!
The non-vegetarian brahmans in India (I don't know about those in SE Asia and Nepal) are the Sarasvats in the South, Oriyas, Asamiya, Bangali, Maithili, and the Kashmiri (some would say they too are Sarasvats). Have I missed anyone? According to my Maithili friend since Buddha and Mahavira were from the East that is where their preachings about vegetarianism had the least impact. Puja and meat do mix, certainly, though not everywhere. In the Kali temples in Eastern India and Nepal animals are offered as sacrfice and the meat is distributed as a prasad of sorts. In Tamizh Naadu local Hindu deities (where 'caste' Hindus too worship on occasion) and some of the more popular sakti (or amman) shrines are offered a sacrifice of goats or chickens. When Jayalalitha's administration tried to ban this practice through legislation there was an uproar and the Bill was withdrawn (or the act repealed(?)) At the Kali Puja (coincides with Dipavali at the end of Puja and Bijoya) meat and drink (madhu, mamsa) must be served and the mutton curry is cooked in orthodox Hindu style with no onions, garlic or tomatoes - and of course is too good to miss! The traditional Bengali brahmin nonvegetarian diet included fish of all sorts and mutton. Eggs and fowl were forbidden.
And who says they don't drink in Gujarat? That's a joke with a J
It doesn't matter what people ate 1000s of years ago. It does matter what people like to eat today.
There are Christians and Muslims in India who do not have beef. For instance Kashmiri Muslims are known to be averse to beef. And of course there are Muslims and Christians who are vegetarian just as there are Hindus who will eat anything.
Mate, those sound fairly normal in that I know many of people who do them. Here's a weird one - I have a friend who has a normal name but insists on being called Palak. Hence we all call him Palak Paneer of course. Now he does this nonsensical thing on Mondays where he only has one meal. Fine. But to him, one meal constitutes not getting up from the table. If he does, it becomes two meals. This is usually acceptable but we went to Pizza Hut buffet one day and I was amazed to see his two friends get all the food for him!
He's either some crazy religious brother or he's a smart Gujju getting other people to work for him!
#We can make it if we try...#
There are Christians and Muslims in India who do not have beef.
Do they belong to a particular sect or located in a particular area?
hey,
well... in india at least, EVERY edible item is marked with a circle inside a square, the color of both being either green or red depending on the vegetarianism of the product...
i have written about the same here.
Dosai is probably my fav Indian food. But I have had a bad experience with 'mutton' in India. Appearently mutton refers to goat meat in India whereas in the rest of the world it means lamb.
Interesting, I was thinking that "mutton" meant "goat's meat".. I like "goat's meat" better than "lamb".. depends on how you groomed your taste buds, I guess..
I got really fed up by the surprising remarks of people in the US, that being a "Hindi" I am eating meat..
"Dude, first of all, there is no one called a "Hindi". If you mean "Hindu" around 80% of Hindus do eat meat.".
But after a while I gave up and just started smiling.. But am surprised to see the remarks here in a "indian american" website..
coming from a guju vegetarian:
there are a lot of random fasts and such in our culture..but not just gujus.. i've seen in the marathi culture and beyond...
yeah.. people do 'saanivars' (saturdays), or that long jain fast for a few days sans anything.. not even water... or they do 'guruvars' (thursdays, the day of the guru) where they might eat one meal.. or nothing at all (it's all up to the individual)... my parents do random things all the time....navaratrhi is also a popular fasting fest... garba away...and load up on the fruits/nuts...then there are those 'moru' days where salt isn't allowed...to another practice of not talking the entire day... hmm..god.. the world would be so awesome if most politicians had to go silent for one day..it would be a day of peace.. (my wheels are a spinning :))..
anyhoot, a lot of people believe that fasting is a religious practice...and will make you remember god or the higher being more.. i don't know how a grumbling hungry stomach can make you realize god... but to each their own... i respect there beliefs...and go on my merry way....
and bong breaker..as for being called palak (WTF?), and getting up making it 2 meals... that is pure crazinesss.... but craziness is what makes the world more entertaining.... and more palatable... pardon the pun ;)...
It is common to find Christians who avoid beef in TN and AP. I have known Kutchi Memons, Khojas, and Bohras who avoid beef. This may be because of Hindu ancestry. Some years ago I met an ordained minister of the Church of South India at a training program originally a Hindu who had embraced Christianity in his 20s, who would not even have eggs. Born into a brahmin family he said that he would never get over his aversion to anything that smelt or looked meaty/gamey. Some othodox Christians claim bibilical justification for vegetarianism as before the Fall there was no death and Adam and Eve as well as all the animals were vegetarian. (Expert knowledge required please!)
For those of you familiar with Colaba Causeway there is (used to be?) Cafe Olympia (Olympic?) a Muslim run restaurant that does not serve beef at all; and so are the places such as Delhi Durbar. But right across the road and behind, next to Gokul's, you have(d) Bade Miyan's that serves the most succulent kababs of beef, ghosht, and chicken. And then there is Baghdadi too (great BIG rotis and naans although not my favourite) that serves beef. In TN I have known Muslims who avoid beef in deference to the sentiments of their Hindu neighbors, in towns with large Muslim populations such as in the leather belt, Ambur, Vaniyambadi, Visharam, Gudiyattam. I was told that although beef is not haraam the Urdu Muslim families for generations have avoided it. Among Tamizh Muslims some abhor beef and would rather go vegetarian than have beef.
Among the Jewish some are said to prefer vegetarian/vegan food as it is easier to observe kosher.
I know how sensitive this issue is.
That's shocking. Luckily I don't use that on the desserts I make at home- and don't even buy those sweets with the 'vark' on them. I had this notion, that it's some chemical that i don't want to be eating - even if it was pure silver, I din't exactly want that kind of metal in my diet- Thanks for bringing this to our knowledge.
BTW the book Heads and Tales by Maneka Gandhi, tells the tale of how cows are tortured for their milk- if that's true then I feel very sick for consuming even that 1/2 L milk a day at home!
Regards
I cant believe a staple desi food used for hundreds of years (?) has animal-products on the DL. thats actually ironic and sorta absurd. Meanwile this issue does not just affect Jains and Hindus, but also Muslims since some of these secret items include pork. So basically every single desi (i guess besides Christians)
I sometimes feel that all of these practises are an excuse for losing weight or just getting rid of toxins in your body. The food superstitions that guju's practise could fill up an entire book. My dad always makes fun of my mom when she does her 'faraar' fasts. She doesn't eat lentils or vegetables but stocks up on potatoes and sago and other very starchy and fattening stuff. He used to call the fast a farce because you don't give up anything as such. You actually end up feasting on goodies like kaju katri, fried peanuts , shrikhand etc etc.
Chick Pea..I agree with you. I don't fast because it actually makes me very hungry and almost evil. I constantly think about ways to turn the clock so that I can eat tortilla chips etc. I can watch someone who is fasting and very considerately go somewhere else to binge so as to not tempt them. :-)
I went to a Jain high school and we'd see quite a number of girls doing 'Athai' pass out during school assemblies. I suppose they thought it worthwhile because they ended up getting enough $$ gifts to finance their first year in college!
Ahem? And non-veg Sikhs. And Jews (OK, very few Indian Jews left)
Can we just agree that this affects anyone, religion aside, who is a vegetarian. The point of the post was not, Hindus should now be upset, or Jains should now be upset, but that vegetarians should be weary of certain food items they previously believed were vegetarian. It would be logical to think that mithai was one of those veg-friendly items.
Gujarati's do have interesting dietary practices, however Bong this isn't so illogical--as it defines the meal. Otherwise he could be munching on tapas or an all-you-can-eat buffet all day long--which defeats the purpose of the fast. Some of my family members do fast, and instead of doing so to lose weight or to remember God, it often serves to remind one of self control, and part of that is the ability to control the amount one intakes.
Possible explaination for Mr.Palak's behaviour of eating a meal in this supposedly crazy fashion:
In most Brahmin households (mine included) before beginning a meal you sprinkle water around your plate of food and utter a mantra (which is a prayer to the lord thanking him for food etc). This whole process is called Parishechanam. At the end of the meal, you repeat the process and utter "Anna daatha sukhi bhava" (Bless the one who has served me-- in most cases the wife).
Now I think Palak ji is being very selective about what he wants to follow. I would check if he devout enough in every other respect to warrant the luxury of uninterrupted meals. If not, I suggest his pals make sure that he does deserve what he demands.
Haven't read all the comments, apologies if someone has already posted this.
The terminology itself is flawed. 'Aryan Hindus'? First of all, the term 'Aryan' is too loaded. The 'Aryan Invasion' theory is pretty discredited in its original form and their are various replacing hypotheses with different amounts of evidence. And it's probably more correct to call their religion as 'Vedic' religion or proto-Hinduism, because it is very different from Hinduism as we know it today. It is the ancestor of both Hinduism and Zorastrianism, and involved primarily worship of nature and its forces, less of the deities that we are familiar with today.
That being said, there's no specific prohibition on eating beef in known Vedic literature, and it is reasonable to surmise that it was considered ok, especially considering the Vedic notions of sacrifice and unity of nature. Eating something was not necessarily a destructive or violent activity, but a sacrifical ritual and merely part of the cycle of life. The strict dietary restrictions came during post-Vedic periods of the 'smritis'. However, given the usefulness of the cow in general during vedic periods, it may have been practical not to eat it, which later got codified into 'law'.
(Disclosure: my source for this information is Dr. PV Pathak, a respected Vedic scholar originally from the Vedic institute in Pune, India, with whom I am currently taking a class in Vedic studies)
Actually a more accurate term is Saamish (Meat Eaters) & Niraamish (Non Meat Eaters)
I have been told by authories (okay, my mom) that in bangla, niraamish is only applied to the actual food--calling yourself niraamish would be saying that you're for vegetarians to consume :) The term for a non meat eater is niraamishi.
Is it different in hindi or other northern I.E. languages?
I'll actually hold testimony to the fact that we gujus have weird fasting habits.
For starters, the concept of faraar is a farce. I know that in the Swaminarayan sect, we have an ekadashi every 15 days or so, and we can do faraar. Although the prefered fast is one done with fruits. Over time ofcourse, that rule has become less and less lenient (sp?). Ekadashi is actually rooted in Indian culture by the boon that Ekadashi asked from God after defeating the demon Murdanav.
Although for the four months of Chaturmas, the rules are more strict and they are a form of penance. Once again, this has to do with indian culture and its history (I won't say mythology) more than anything else. So, although they seem incredible and varied, and generally non-sensical, they all have some historical and cultural significance. It's sad to see all of these become commercialized.
I remember I was in India last summer (specifically in Gujarat), and in the restaurants and hotels, they were serving farari this and farari that. Come to think of it, you could've eaten just about everything on the menu done cooked in a farari style. That day is supposed to be a day of restraining yourself from eating all that, yet its sad to see such things happen.
Meh...I don't know where this comment is going..so i'll end it here.
Hmm...the above Fofatlal comment does not sound like Manish...
In Palak's defence - and to answer your query Subbu - Palakji is a fairly devout Hindu fellow, so I don't really think he's trying to get one over on his friends. But Sajit surely if he's getting others to run around it defeats the point? He also cuts short meals if he has to answer the phone/go to the loo/answer his bleep and then will refuse to eat any more, even if it was a small amount in the first place. I think religion without discretion is foolish.
food taboos tend to crystalize around age 6. makes sense that adult converts from hinduism to christianity would persist in them.
Not necessarily in jest, but that sentence wasn't spoken in my own voice. It's what's taught in religious studies classes in the States.
I agree with you Sajit. It's hard out there for a vegetarian. How do you manage to stay away from everything then? I mean, even candy has gelatin and so forth. Do you read every label? I am not being sarcastic at all when I say that I envy those of you who can carry on being vegetarians. I would find it very hard indeed.
Bong: If he was to get up in the middle of the meal, his one shot at food for the day would be over--if you are at a buffet on your fasting day, the only way to go woul dbe to have your mates get your food. I imagine if he was eating at home, he would have someone get him seconds so that he wouldn't cut his meal short by leaving the table.
Msichana: I read or ask as many questions as I can about what I eat before I eat it. Obviously, when I go out to eat I try as best as I can to ensure that my vegetarian food is indeed vegetarian, but for example, if I ask a waiter if they use the same oil to fry chicken as they do the french fries, and he answers no, but the restaurant really does use the same oil, well that is a hazard of dining out, and I kind of just deal with it.
A hypothetical question. What would a pukka vegetarian do if a life-saving drug, on which his life depended, was made with some animal byproduct or utilized animals in the final delivery of the product? The latter is fairly common, isn't it?
Indian style vegetarianism is all about religion, not a health kick, and most religions of India are all about ahimsa. So to overlook the "collateral damage" inflicted on animals for a worthwhile cause such as drugs would still not pass muster. One cannot conveniently differentiate between killing for a purpose and killing for eating.
I asked a Jain friend once what he thought of pest control - as in getting rid of termites to protect your home, killing fire ants that infest our lawns here in order to protect the children who may accidentally trip over them. He didn't have a good answer.
Floridian: I of course cannot speak for every vegetarian, but I think this would be a personal choice for the individual vegetarian, regardless of what faith they professed. It would also, I presume, be open to how the individual perceived or interpreted their faith.
Interesting! Sajit, you left the question dangling and perhaps rightly so. Not every question in human life has a pat answer to be found in one's religion or some other discipline. By the way, regarding the varak on sweets - what if the sweets are prasad? Would that make the varak acceptable?
As an aside, the varak was a real problem for people with fillings in their teeth. The metal seemed to react with the filling. One source tells me that is no longer the case as the new fillings do not contain metal.
what about the abhorrent ways dairy cows are supposedly treated or so I've read? anyone gonna go vegan or maybe get dairy products straight fro mthe farm which I don't think is even an absolute guarantee.
#34: "Through my forty years of presenting the eternal Truths of Hinduism, I have found that families who are vegetarian have fewer problems than those who are not. This is because when we eat meat, fish, fowl and eggs, we absorb the vibration of the instinctive creatures into our nerve system and this amplifies our own lower nature. Our lower nature is prone to fear, anger, jealousy, confusion, resentment and the like. We advise all members of my Saiva Siddhanta Church to be well-established vegetarians prior to initiation into mantram and then remain vegetarian afterward. However, we don't insist upon members becoming vegetarian if they are not seeking initiation."
Haha, that must be the best post I have read that's filled with the religious equivalent of corporate buzzwords.
Well, sadly, I had known of this earlier this year during the January times, it was a friends wedding about 5 of us had been to Nashik to attend it, it was amidst the hoopla, that a couple of my friends had this great idea of going out and having their fill at a Chinese Non Vegetarian Restaurant. I, being a strict vegetarian, denied it. And as usual they started their unwanted comments. Some Pointed on how I could consume Milk or something along the grounds. Then one of them exclaimed, "don't you eat Mithais?" I was like, "Yes, I do! So what?", to which he replied,"Dude, the silver foil on top is ....." And the rest is history... Lol ...
Nice Blog My First Post as a comment here ...
Abhishek
www.abhishektripathi.com
Indeed. In true Opal Mehta fashion, I have taken the Fofatlal character and made it my own via humours of a desi sort.
Ha! What's the punishment for internalizing yourself :)
Abhi (Of SM), looks like you have a visitor with the same name as you!
All cows except those from California are unhappy! Don't you know that? ;-)
Jokes aside, I work with a white woman who suddenly decided one day to stop eating animals. She doesn't eat any kind of meat and keeps away from chicken as well. However, she is big on fish and sea food.
I think the vegan concept is a western one because those who are religious and vegetarian because of that seem to avoid anything that was created as a result of death to a living being. Hence meat is out and eggs are out too since they were potential lives. It'd be interesting to see how many people are vegetarian for religious reasons and how many do it for health benefits.
Why not just die? We've stigmatized pain and death so much, making them things to fear and run away from, instead of just accepting the fact that they are part of the human experience. I know this sounds callous, but modern medicine and the pharmaceutical industry are just preventing humans from evolving/improving as a species. I realize that it's hard to watch people suffer, but why do we jump through hoops to prevent death, killing animals in the process? What's so bad about just dying.
"why do we jump through hoops to prevent death, killing animals in the process? What's so bad about just dying."
You must be trolling, but I'll take the bait. There's nothing bad about dying, but try accepting death as the inevitable when there's a dearly loved person's life at stake. Have you actually applied this philosophy in your life, or do you just think that it would be a cool thing to do? I'm guessing that it's the latter.
Personally if it's between me starving on a veld and a hare keeping its life, the hare gets it. But in the urban jungle these are really hypotheticals. I'd really rather have a samosa and let the lop go on its way.
The drug example is more like real life where absolutely every damn thing in the U.S. uses some animal part or another. It's almost like you get extra credit for working in horse's balls into something innocuous like rice, bagels or porridge-- nasty.
We need a veg-friendly labeling law in the U.S.
You first. Can I have your stuff?
Not to beat on a dead horse (oops!), but the answer to unsolvable riddles such as death vs. non-veg drugs may be found in the Geeta. The Geeta preaches a practical, street-wise philosophy. The right thing to do depends on the circumstances. For example, Krishna solves Arjuna's moral dilemma about killing his own kin by explaining why it is necessary to do so given the extenuating circumstances.
The question is - how many people practice Hinduism based on the original tenets of the religion and how many embrace everything whole hog (oops!).
To bridge off an interesting question that Floridian raises, how far does each person's personal definition of wegetarian go? While maybe one doesn't eat meat or milk or wear leather, surely it would be short-sighted to think that our fancy new apartment complex didn't displace 100s or more animals from their natural habitat, when the real estate project was developed. I don't believe highways or Tar-zhays existed in nature, so an unfortunate consequence of living in the 21st century is that almost everything we do has somehow harmed non-human life. Like the question about fire-ants or termites, where is the line drawn? Is it at consumption? Is it possible to be against animal testing of (for example) cosmetic products, but not against actually purchasing the product with animal-derived ingredients?
I don't have the answers... talk amongst yourselves, discuss. :)
Ennis: Ooooh ooooh! Teacher! I have a question!
Desi Dancer: What is it Ennis?
Ennis: I forgot.
but pls go on - i was quite enjoying your flow of thought.
BTW - since you (DD) didnt oblige on my request, i had to come up with a suitable eggplant dish this past weekend w/ one tbsp olive oil - my rectitude and my wallet are suitably synchronized. Ommmm...
>>Indian style vegetarianism is all about religion, not a health kick, and most religions of India are all about ahimsa...I asked a Jain friend once what he thought of pest control ... He didn't have a good answer
Update for your Jain friend: Scientists have successfully grown meat in a lab from animal tissue. No animal has been killed or harmed, and yet you have edible meat. Next, they are trying to remove the nervous system from the lab-grown meat, and also to remove all the cholestrol-causing elements in it. At this time, the process is too expensive to be economically viable, but by 2015 or so, they think the prices will meet or beat hog prices. So in a decade, you will have cheap meat that's available in abundance, without any health-hazards and also without harming any animals. Will your Jain friend eat it?
I'm a vegetarian today, but I will eat that meat. However, when I ask other veggies, they say that the very thought of meat is abhorrent. I told them that they are stuck in millennia old value-systems which are no longer relevant in a rapidly evolving scientific age. Then, they stumped me by asking me: So if you could grow chicken meat without the chicken, then you will be able to grow human meat without harming any human. Would you eat that? They could grow your mother's meat using her DNA. Would you eat it? Why not? Would you eat your own meat? "Guess who we are having for dinner today!"
I had no answer to this challenge. Any SM'ers who can help me?
M. Nam
Hi MoorNam. Last Thanksgiving, I floated a rather innovative idea among my vegetarian friends. Why not bake or rather, roast, a turkey shaped "thing" that would actually be baked bread on the outside and potato fillings inside. Like a giant samosa with drumsticks! That way the vegetarians would have something to carve, too. Every Thanksgiving, these poor souls feel like second class citizens. The idea went off life a lead balloon because these people don't really want to carve anything and eating a proxy of a bird is hardly their idea of fun.
See where I am going with this? What would be the point of eating a chicken that was not meat? Why in the world would a vegetarian want to eat it? For protein? You can get protein from a lot of other sources.
Anyhow, I have not completely killed (oops) my idea of a turkey/samosa-with-legs just yet. Can you imagine the market for such a thing? I could manufacture them and freeze them and market them through all the desi stores during Thanksgiving.
Any venture capitalist in the crowd?
here's what this sex symbol (NSFW) has to say about the perils of cooking turkey for christmas
I told them that they are stuck in millennia old value-systems which are no longer relevant in a rapidly evolving scientific age. Then, they stumped me by asking me: So if you could grow chicken meat without the chicken, then you will be able to grow human meat without harming any human. Would you eat that? They could grow your mother's meat using her DNA. Would you eat it? Why not? Would you eat your own meat? "Guess who we are having for dinner today!"
Well I can argue that, the idea of not eating your mother's meat or your own meat is again a millenia old value system that you are stuck at.. If it is not harming you or your mother one bit, what prevents you from eating that?. :-)
what? let everybody else get bloated on the turkey, I'm only after the side dishes and dessert anyway! More variety and much more delicious. Nobody ever died from any such Mad Broccoli disease :)
Has anyone ever tried the ToFurkey? I'm intrigued, but maybe not enough to eat it...
What's with this mock-meat fixation? ToFurkey, Garden Burgers, and so on. I was kidding about the samosa-with-legs thing. But this meat emulation among CERTAIN vegetarians - I am being very careful - is certainly indicative of something in our society. I don't know what, though.
hasn't a german or some other european company already produced a meat that they say tastes like human flesh? if the argument is that today's hindus or others should have no problem eating beef because their ancestors may or may not have eaten beef, then why shouldn't humans today eat other humans since cannibalism and human sacrifice was a feature of many ancient civilizations around the world?
- a danish prince has caused a stir in the last few days by admitting he likes his dogs sizzled or fried, a taste he picked up in vietnam. the argument being, if you're going to eat a cow or a goat or a sheep's intestine or meat that defies description, why not a dog?
(caveat: i'm a dog lover and don't eat any meat, fowl or fish).
hey Flrdn - dont know if you were implying anything deep - but emulating the taste and texture of meat thru substitutes isnt anything new or nefarious - just the art of food preparation - i've had shepherd's pie made with soy and boy o boy... it was quite uniqu and quite fantastic... for you truntoonians there's a restaurant, king's cafe in kensignton mkt (branches in ottawa, loo and montreal) that serves the faux stuff... and it's awesome good - chek it out.
DD:
never had tofurkey...but have been to several chinese buddhist restaurants.. ranging from happy family in monterey park, cali (awesome for those who are out there...) to harmony here in atlanta... and one of my all time favorites in DC called yuan fu (the faux duck their is awesome..but how would i know?).. anyhow, i know some vegetarians are perturbed of eating fake 'meat'... i just find it interesting as to what tempeh, tofu, and other gluten products can be prepared as.. it makes it more interesting for my taste buds...
hey chick pea, I don't find it peturbing either... One time at Dragonfly in NYC, I ordered the "fake" spicy cashew chicken and Mr. DD ordered the real one. Strangely, the two carnivores in our party concurred that mine tasted hella better. I personally like to sneak not-dogs and fake meats on my non-weg friends, just to see if they really can tell half the time. And anyone who's had my spinach & black bean enchiladas knows the last thing on their mind is "where's the beef?" ;)
ok... here's a plug for the home crew... plus they're nice people ... always a plus in my book ... most indian restaurateurs always seem so grumpy... like giant rats with their little beady eyes and that weird grumpy probing look ... vere are you from?
anyway... so DD care to share your bean enchilada recipe!!! sounds awesome!!! do you use canned beans or pressure nuke the beans... any tips!!!? can you seee where i'm going ... i vahnt that tastes of sepia tab!!! kwite badly.
tofurkey is not worth writing home about. It's okay. Mac and cheese is better.
Dragonfly in NYC, I ordered the "fake" spicy cashew chicken and Mr. DD ordered the real one. Strangely, the two carnivores in our party concurred that mine tasted hella better. I personally like to sneak not-dogs and fake meats on my non-weg friends, just to see if they really can tell half the time. And anyone who's had my spinach & black bean enchiladas knows the last thing on their mind is "where's the beef?" ;)
I agree, Dragonfly is the bestest and fake meat is making miraculous strides (thank you TVP). I wonder how much this comes at the cost of our health, but then, I had pringles and pizza (okay, and some grapes) for all my meals yesterday.
PS writes: >>the idea of not eating your mother's meat or your own meat is again a millenia old value system that you are stuck at
CP:>>i know some vegetarians are perturbed of eating fake 'meat'.
Every technology has early adopters and late adopters. A few relatives of mine bought a TV set within a week of getting Doordarshan in the early 80's. But other relatives of mine still haven't bought a TV - the old couple say they are happy without it.
Similiarly, with the factory-farm grown "meat", there will be early adopters and late adopters. I will be an early adopter because my value system says that I can eat anything as long as no living being is killed, and this fits the bill. However, I do understand folks who are repulsed by the thought of it tasting like something which was alive. All of us have conditioned responses, and the more broad-minded and adaptation-friendly among us modify/rectify our conditioned responses based on new information (scientific, social, cultural etc).
Because, after all, what is the difference between meat and vegetable? Both are just matter where molecules are arranged in a particular order: the first belonged once to a living being and the second did not. Now, if "meat" could be grown on farms by installing water and fertilizer feeders, would it really be meat? It's just another vegetable. It's due to this logic that I choose to "adapt".
However, I cannot adapt to eating human meat grown in a similiar manner. I know - it's illogical and irrational. Sue me. This is one technology that I will not adopt - but I won't have a problem if others did. Social behaviour should change as times change - those who refuse to adapt, perish.
Fifty years from now, it will probably not be surprising to see a couple argue : "Why do we have to eat your folks every Chrismas? Why can't we eat my folks for once?" It will not be considered cannibalism, because it isn't.
M. Nam
Eat me. ;-)
I haven't read all the comments so don't know if this has been brought up already, but a side-effect of eating silver is that it can turn your skin blue.
That is if you consume (relatively) ma