do a search on anthony walker as well - big news in 2005.

and then kriss donald as well.

Thanks for this post. Having lived in the UK, i can say that tension and violence against Asians is far from being over. I'm not sure if there is a new wave of hatred occuring or if this hatred stems from years of Asians immigrating into the UK... but it seems that mainstream British society has an issue with the new generation of Asians -- those who were born and raised in England. These youth may not think of themselves as immigrants like their parents had, and this therefore creates tension and conflict for those individuals who do think they should be considered as immigrants. I think a lot of suppressed feelings are re-surfacing now and that will unfortunately, without dialogue, lead to further tension and violence.

but it seems that mainstream British society has an issue with the new generation of Asians

perception: this anti-immigrant sentiment seems in large part strongly skewed toward low SES whites. another perception: low SES whites have of late been characterized by a culture of nihilism in the UK that is spinning out of control. so, i wonder if racism is simply a manifestation for this group to believe in something.

anyway, not everything the BNP says is wrong, even if their racism, hatred and implicit violence is.

britain doesn't really have that many non-whites compared to the USA even. i think residential segregation is part of the problem. i have read/seen leftists complain that tv shows (like the "Up series") does not represent britain because of only token non-white representation, when the reality is over 90% of the british are white.

also, another perception: it is easier being non-white in the US than in most of europe. ironic note: my relatives in the UK are something of black sheep in the bangladeshi community because they are not syhleti. my cousin would regularly get beat up by other bangladeshis on the street on his way back from school (there might be a class angle, he's a 'public school' boy).

Razib:

ironic note: my relatives in the UK are something of black sheep in the bangladeshi community because they are not syhleti. my cousin would regularly get beat up by other bangladeshis on the street on his way back from school (there might be a class angle, he's a 'public school' boy).

I have heard about this syleti vs non syhleti situation, but I don't quite understand it. What is going on with that?

Interesting article by Ennis. As someone living in the UK, here are a couple of points:

1. The BNP are taking advantage of current controversies over illegal immigration and what is perceived to be "unmanageable, excessive" immigration. The idea that the UK's "intrinsic British culture" is being (negatively) changed by brown people is also nonsense; there has certainly been some influence by various immigrant groups, but in reality the UK has become far more like an extension of the United States, culturally-speaking anyway. The dominant cultural influence here is actually American.

2. They are also attempting to facilitate some kind of "alliance" against Muslims, and that includes targetting non-Muslim South Asian groups, as the BNP is aware that culturally and historically there has often been a significant degree of animosity between these desi sub-groups.

3. Razib is absolutely correct in stating that "perception" is an important factor; there actually aren't that many South Asians here compared to the 60+ million people comprising the rest of the British population. However, the reality is distorted in regional areas with a high concentration of desis, and also the profile of South Asians here (publicly and in the media) is greater than the "actual" numbers (the latter is the same situation as Sikhs in India, for example).

4. 9/11, 7/7, the Danish cartoon controversies, and the activities of some radical Muslim groups such as Hizb-ut-Tahrir, Al-Muhajiroun/Al-Gharaaba etc have all made matters significantly worse in recent years too. However, these issues are just an excuse for the BNP, who have always had a racist agenda and continue to do so. They're just capitalising on people's fears.

5.

Asians became more recognized and accepted in mainstream British society. Was I wrong?

Not necessarily, but it does depend on who one talks to here and where one lives. There are plenty of intelligent, good-natured white people in the UK who have enough objectivity and decency to be able to see "the big picture" and do not fall for the propaganda, and they certainly don't blame "all" Asians for the issues I mentioned in point #4. However, there are others who have a less enlightened attitude. It's obviously going to depend on their own personalities, environment, and social circle.

I've read some articles that really spoke to me about the divisions and discrimination among the Asian groups in the UK. Recently the Tooting Boys, a Tamil gang, killed two Pakistanis for no reason. On BBC Asian Network there was also a Sikh man (maybe he was a Punjabi Hindu, I'm not sure)who was a member of the BNP. His membership was based on his hatred of Muslims, specifically Pakistanis.

When evaluating Asian relations in the UK, one might also consider the 1985 riots in Birmingham, and the more recent riots in Bradford, in 2001 I think. There was also more recent violence in Birmingham, between Afro-Caribbean and Pakistani youth, which started with a rumor that a group of Asians gang raped a Afro-Caribbean girl.

Guy from Cali:
I've read some articles that really spoke to me about the divisions and discrimination among the Asian groups in the UK.

I am a fellow Californian. There are also divisions and discrimination among Asian groups here in the US as well. At one Hindu mandhir, I remember, there had been a group of Desi youngun's who did a drive by shooting (!). In addition, though I personally steered clear away from Desi cliques, a friend of mine once convinced me to attend a "Desi party". At least 5 different gangs had been present-- the Bombay Posse, the Pakistani Psychadelics, and something-or-others. Lots of gang rivalry. In other areas, there had been confrontations between Punjabi Sikhs and Gujurati Hindus.

Too many divisions amongst Desis worldwide, yaar.

A guy from cali

Those Pakistani boys in Tooting were not stabbed by Tamils - they were stabbed by Pakistanis - they have already arrested some people for the crime.

The UK is not an immigrant country like the US. In the UK you have to conform to the majority culture/ community. I find the native Britions generally warm and welcoming but the favour must be returned. I find some immigrants not doing so and most of them from Pakistani-Muslim backgrounds. Living in ghettos also does not help.

The BNP by the way is not on the march. It has a very small %tage vote and soem seats in areas it was expected to win. It was a protest vote by white working class Brits for being ignored.

Racism is not on the rise in the UK, but anti-Islamism is on the rise - but this is now a general feeling amongst many Infidels - so not a new thing to worry about.

a guy from cali

The 1985 riots in Birmingham were carried out by Rastas and Jamaicans - who mostly targetted Asian businesses and even burnt to death two Bangladeshi men in a post office - throughout the 1980's blacks in the UK inner cities rioted. There were even riots in Southall in 1981 against the Neo Nazi National Front (NF) when they tried to march through Southall. They got chased out and the pub in which they came to watch a skinhead concert was burned down. Dozens of skinheads had the shit kicked out of them. The Nazis never dared to set foot in Southall again.

Oh yeah, by the way. The BNP does claim to have a couple of Sikhs and Hindus who support it because of their hatred of Muslims. The BNP know that the best prejudice to whip up at the moment is that against Muslims and their efforts are concentrated on trying to drive a wedge amongst Asians by playing the good Asian/ bad Asian card : ie: Sikhs and Hindus won't try and take over England and bomb us and rape our women - Muslims will. You get the picture. That way they can say they are not being racist but are simply riding on the wave of opposition to 'anti-Islamism', in the light of the Mohammad cartoons etc.

I agree with Bihari Babu - the BNP are not on the march - they are a racist and fringe party seen as lunatics, and gaining seats in a couple of wards on a 30% turnout in areas of white working class disillusion is a protest vote and nothing more. Anyone who knows what racism was like in the 1980's and 1970's will not be under any illusion that things are getting worse in the UK - there are a number of dynamics going on there is increased integration and a much higher profile and acceptance and wealth and at the same time tensions and traction in some of the inner city ghetto communities. It is not black and white and on the whole Britain is a good and decent and fair country for Asian people. Regional differences too - the North is in general not as integrated and prosperous as the south.

Living in ghettos also does not help.

Rising?

When I lived there in the 80s the country had no shortage of racists. My dad wanted to leave England because after living there since the 70s he had come to the conclusion the country was full of racists. Was there some lull in the 90s where everyone was holding hands and it was all one love? Or perhaps nothing has changed, and England is as England always has been.

That's a pile of crap. England is not full of racists. Or put it this way. It is as full of racists as America or Canada or Ireland or Australia is. Pay your money and take your choice. When my Aunt lived in New York in the 1980's all we heard from her was about the infamous New Jersey Dot Bashers. You can't extrapolate that to a whole society.

England is not full of racists.

Anecdotally, it took 17 years for an American to toss a racist slur at me, but only a couple of months in a posh area of London.

I think it is tough for North American Desis to understand the British desi dynamic. For example, residential segregation is a lot bigger, but desi culture permeates society in a way even a Vancouverite would find surpising. Despite the similar language, the UK is still a foreign country.

But bear mind that the BNP went from about 22 council seats to 44 council seats -- out of a total of about 22,000 council seats. Not much of a crisis.

Perhaps "full" was the wrong word. Still, you'll have to trust me when I say Canada and the England I remember are nothing alike. Really.

English people are rude! I was there in '01 and cant remember hearing even once excuse me or a thank-you

All that stuff about racists aside, yeah sure you might be more likely to encounter racism somewhere in the UK than somewhere in the US but the variation is pretty broad in either place. What is more important is that London is a centre of South Asian culture in a way nowhere in the US is. I walked into a Dixon's (big UK electronics chain, soon to be rebranded Curry's, except at airports, not kidding) at Heathrow airport the other day and the (all Punjabi) assistants had the old Punjabi song "kali teri gut te paranda teri lal ni" playing. Outside India, damnit, London is home.

English people are rude! I was there in '01 and cant remember hearing even once excuse me or a thank-you

I wrote the exact same thing in my blog when I got back from a wedding in England last year. I was craving the politeness of New Yorkers after that trip!

At my NYC gym they play bhangra sometimes (late night the customers are cabbies), and at Barnes and Noble in Union Square (like Waterstone's in Piccadilly Circus) they play old Hindi songs pretty often. But no, it's not quite like Londonstan.

CAD- Thats a good point, I knew there had to be divisions at some level between desis in the US obviously, but I guess sometimes we have to step back to really see it.

Tooting Bec- Thanks for the info you seem to know alot about the subject. Do you think that blacks are more accepted than Asians in the mainstream in the UK? I've always thought that they are, partially because of the status that blacks have in the US, their presence in movies, music etc so it makes it ok or even cool to have blacks in the media. I always look for desis when I watch British movies, and usually see blacks before desis, if there are any desis at all.

Do you think that blacks are more accepted than Asians in the mainstream in the UK?

Yes, for all the reasons stated in post #23, but also because black people here tend to be comparatively more "westernised" than Asians are (or are perceived as such). There's also a considerably higher rate of intermarriage between white people and black people, along with people in long-term relationships (but unmarried).

I wrote the exact same thing in my blog when I got back from a wedding in England last year.

I don't particularly want to get involved with discussion, people seem to have some bizarre views about the UK based on what seems to be almost no experience. I guess I sound the same when I talk about America (although I'm more accurate and almost certainly more polite :)) I would never choose a life in America over the life I have here, and I'm sure Americans would say the converse. There's a limited amount one can infer about living in another country simply from the media. e.g. Ikram's point, that the BNP 'threat' is being immensely overplayed.

However I think Eurodesi has a point, London is quite different from the rest of the country. I wouldn't like to live anywhere else in the UK because I love London, but I wouldn't feel out of place anywhere. I've never felt unwelcome in any particular area.

Tooting Bec, your one line sums it up:

You can't extrapolate that to a whole society.

Silly generalisations are just that, silly. We hear about racist incidents from America on a regular basis but I don't think anyone here thinks "America is full of racists" (cf ramanan #14)

Really just commenting to say yo to Tooting Bec - another Tooting lad on here, excellent (I'm assuming you're a lad!) I was wistfully driving past Amal Shawarma and Sree Krishna this afternoon, and I thought after six great years I'm really going to miss this place.

BB - leaving aside shallow overgeneralizations, do you think that there is an increase in xenophobia in the UK? Do you think that is related to the BNP in some fashion (as I pointed out, support for them is limited but sympathy for their objectives seems to be increasing far more), and do you think that this incident is related or just a one off?

I understand your distaste for sweeping culturalist explanations (all Brits are X), but can you give us a more subtle perspective?

life's all a big shamiana and dhol gig, eh Sonia? :-)

Oh, that would be heavenly if it were true =)

Ennis,

do you think that there is an increase in xenophobia in the UK?

Xenophobia, no. Distrust and antagonism towards Islam (and by association, Muslims), definitely. The latter also sometimes spills over into problems towards (South) Asians in general, because for many people here, the terms "Asian" and "Muslim" are interchangeable.

But as BongBreaker has mentioned, the rest of the country has different social and cultural dynamics to London, so issues further north aren't necessarily relevant, or as pronounced, in London (and vice versa).

Personally, I don't think it's directly related to the BNP (although they're probably "fanning the flames" in their target areas), but they're jumping on the bandwagon and, as I mentioned earlier, trying to use people's fears and concerns to their own nefarious advantage.

There are a variety of scenarios. The first two are not mutually exclusive:

1. Xenophobia is increasing for various reasons - the BNP benefits, and various racial incidents occur
2. Xenophobia is increasing for various reasons, and the BNP both benefits and fans the flame

3. Xenophobia is increasing, but is unrelated to the racial incident, and the BNP has not really benefitted.
4. Xenophobia is not really increasing.

Of course, then there's the issue in variation in xenophobia - where, amongst whom, towards whom, etc.

Wow - the first thing I have to say is that I see a lot of prejudice towards the UK on this discussion. Same old, same old. For some or other reason not just the UK, but the entire of Europe is perceived to be 'full of racists'. The same way that North American Desis won't like it when we make generalised statements about them, so shouldn't you do the same about the people in Europe and the UK.

That said, I don't actually live in the UK, but from what I've read and seen is that there are certain areas with a very high concentration of desis(e.g. Bradford) - and those are invariably problematic places. From what I know, the population there mostly consists of lower-class Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

As for the xenophobia , I wouldn't know if that has increased - but I'm inclined to think that it hasn't.

Even as a fringe with the limited numbers listed below, can you see why the BNP raises eyebrows? We don't have anything like this in the US:

In the 2005 general election, the party raised its total number of votes by 0.5% to gain 0.7% - or 192,850 votes.

It gained support in the 2004 European Parliament elections, increasing its votes by 3.9% to gain 4.9% of the vote, but failed to win a seat.

The BNP has courted controversy over its policies, which include a total ban on immigration, and the forced deportation of illegal immigrants from the UK.

BNP spokesman Phil Edwards said the Rowntree report reflected unease among voters about Britain's shift towards a multicultural society.

He said Britain had moved from a "racially homogeneous society ... into one where the cultures are quite alien."

"That does add quite a lot of tensions and stresses," Mr Edwards said.

"What we are trying to do is preserve the traditional culture and identity of Britain," he added. [Link]

I'm very glad that the protest vote went to the Tories instead of the BNP, but increased sympathy for the BNP is of concern. At the very least, it could change policies amongst the major parties, even if the BNP never grow.

we don't have parties like the BNP in the news regularly

You don't have openly treasonous groups like HuT and Al-Muhajiroun/Al-Gharaaba in the news regularly either, interviewed in order to represent "the radical Muslim perspective". God knows why the British media even considers giving them the oxygen of publicity.

BNP and HuT/Al-M/Al-G are two sides of the same coin. The latter fan the flames with their own proclamations and agendas, and give yet more ammunition to the BNP.

They're all as bad as each other and are causing problems for all of us, although I would agree that the threat posed by both groups is exaggerated.

Question - who are the immigrants in question here? Is this about proles against Poles? Or those with no jobs against those with hijabs?

can you give us a more subtle perspective?

I'll try to Ennis.

7/7 was the equivalent of our 9/11. Irrespective of scale, the potential to change people's mentality was there. However I have found almost no lasting fallout from that particular incident. London truly is one of the most multi-cultural and happily multi-cultural places in the world. Experiences of desis I've read about, especially from Sikhs, in the US seem completely alien to me and my peers.

I don't know whether I'd agree with your viewpoint Jai. Has Islamophobia increased or is it simply talked about more? The right-leaning press has certainly found itself talking about Islam more frequently than a few years ago. But society at large hasn't change its treatment towards Muslims and the government has been particularly soft on the hardline elements. That in itself has led to frustration from the public, people certainly are of the opinion that extremism is not being tackled effectively.

The BNP result can also be linked (at least somewhat) to the recent Home Office furore, where 1000-odd foreign convicts were released after their sentence and not deported. Many re-offended. This, combined with two other controversies, sent the Labour party into meltdown for the week of the elections. However the BNP contested 350 seats, but only won 44 and 30% were in one area, where the flames have certainly been fanned by the BNP. The Danish cartoons and the ridiculous reaction in the UK were great for the BNP.

Immigration remains a hot topic and polarises opinion. A hardline anti-immigration stance appeals to some, combined with the new Tory leader being accused of being 'soft' on certain issues. Some Tories may well have moved further right.

Ennis your point about the BNP being in the media is an interesting one, as Sunny and I have made many calls for them to be in the media. What encouraged some 'Islamophobia' is the slanted coverage Islam seemed to receive in the tabloid press. Extremists were given front page articles and stacks of column inches, giving the impression that most Muslims were like them. So we say that if you're going to cover the fringe elements, fine - but be equal about it and cover the BNP too. At the moment, many of the BNP-supporters don't really know what the party's about. Those ethnic supporters are clearly deluded and seduced by talk of 'improving transport, healthcare' etc etc. So if the BNP are on TV more frequently, their one-policy racist strategy will be exposed. Bar their intelligent and eloquent, but utterly racist, leader they are entirely incompetent and their gains will be fleeting.

You may not have parties like the BNP, but then you really only have two parties anyway.

Question - who are the immigrants in question here? Is this about proles against Poles? Or those with no jobs against those with hijabs?

Actually, you answered that question already. I just wanted to try my hand at sloganeering.

I hear a lot of vitriol directed towards Poles Ennis. But they're white, so it took a little while longer for the mainstream media to pick up on it. People are unsure about the unregulated EC-wide migration. Most East Europeans come for a few years, work as plumbers and decorators (both in short supply) and go back. Everybody wins. But skilled immigrants are outnumbered by outskilled, or so it seems. I know a lot of people who have had bad experiences with Poles and it has led to an overall distrust. They have developed a reputation for being benefit scammers.

Hijabs aren't arriving in the country that much anymore. Skilled immigrants from outside the EU have a tougher time coming to the UK, e.g. Indian doctors have been shafted. So immigration is quite separate to the Muslim issue now - the 'problem Muslims' are almost all homegrown. Segregation is not as widespread as the press makes out, but it does exist in significant swathes. And it will only get worse as far as I can tell, with the proliferation of faith schools.

England is a really racist place...point blank. I apologize if you have already touched on some of the things in your previous posts but i'm at work and have to put this up quick. I'm mixed race (African-American, Irish and English). As a kid in the late 70s i had to be taken out of my primary school because of the racist attitudes. Moving forward i went to several schools Newbold College (Wicked School lots of Africans), St Josephs RC Primary School (Not too bad with the racism) but still got into tons of fights whenever someone called me the n word. Salesian College though was the worst...some of my (friends???) decided it would be fun to say that i had AIDS because i came from Africa.

Lots more stuff of course but you cant let hatred and bitterness rule your life. I do believe that Asians do get a lot more stick than West Indians or Africans because you have several distinct cultures that are completely foreign to most english people. Also being Black there is the coolness factor, which for some reason gets you respect from people who don't like Asians...(very strange people those ones).

Some of my friends actually got into a fight with some skinheads down in Southampton one time. They were minding their own business when these white lads came at them with motorcycle chains and bats. They ended up winning the brawl but unfortunately one of the white lads passed away.

England is a little different than the States though because Blacks and Asians stick together more over here we are separated. I think the reason for the separation is that America encourages people to stick with their own kind. Of course people date inter-racially and do other stuff but it is not as accepted.

i think the USA is more PC as opposed to less racist. it is an important distinction.

Interesting how the people who have said Britain is very racist have both cited experiences from the 1970s.

I'd guess the UK is more racist towards desis given that desis are the dominant minority. A better comparison would be desis in the UK vs. blacks in the U.S.

i think the USA is more PC as opposed to less racist. it is an important distinction.

I agree 100% with Razib on both points.

Interesting how the people who have said Britain is very racist have both cited experiences from the 1970s.

I think the reason people are citing examples from the 70s is to suggest that racist attitudes aren't on the rise, that they have always been there. My father lived in England for 17 years, and has no love whatsoever for the place. When he goes back to visit he complains so little has changed; the BBC reports on the same sorts of stories he recalls from the 70s and 80s: white kids still beat up on minorities; the police and government still don't seem to bothered by racism; skinheads are still skinheads; the conservatives are still afraid of immigrants.

oh god you guys are scaring the paste out of me ... i'm ramping up for a client meeting in london later this year... and you ARE NOT HELPING... the only thing positive is the news that red ken has let his toilet simmer for six months now
btw - for all the talk on the xenophobia - did anyone take the time to check out the 2004 murder of Kriss Donald in #2 above - Hate is EA/EO, IMO - is that a song - -whoot-whoot-chckchcka-shoopshoop-shick

xenpohobia = bad times xenos of whatever stripe

I'd guess the UK is more racist towards desis given that desis are the dominant minority. A better comparison would be desis in the UK vs. blacks in the U.S.

well said.

^^ for xenos

Question - who are the immigrants in question here? Is this about proles against Poles? Or those with no jobs against those with hijabs?

Nice sloganeering, Ennis.

Manish,

I'd guess the UK is more racist towards desis given that desis are the dominant minority.

No, it's because desis are perceived to be less westernised and less integrated, as I mentioned before (and of course they're more obviously visible compared to white immigrants). The next-largest minority group, black people, has a greater cultural influence in mainstream British society than desis do, although this has been changing during the past 10 years or so (although 9/11 and 7/7 set this back to some extent).

Bong Breaker,

Has Islamophobia increased or is it simply talked about more?

Both, in my opinion. Before 9/11 people here viewed Islam as "another Asian religion" and the average person didn't know much about it, not even the differences between Islam and the "indigenous" South Asian faiths. To some extent I would even say that the "average person" didn't even care. Matters have obviously changed due to local and global events during the past 5 years in particular.

The fact that many Muslims, both local and worldwide, are being perceived to have extremely hostile anti-Western attitudes and are using Islam to justify their mindset is obviously going to increase hostility towards Islam itself.

Experiences of desis I've read about, especially from Sikhs, in the US seem completely alien to me and my peers.

True, but that's because Sikhs here in the UK were already relatively well established, and pre-9/11, the combination of beard + turban was known to equal "Sikh". I'm not sure what the recent influx of bearded & turbaned Pathans will have on this (go to Green Street and you'll see what I mean), but since the latter are still relatively small here in terms of population, I don't think the average Brit is going to mistake Sikhs for Muslims. Well, apart from the really ignorant type who propagated racist atttacks on gurdwaras as well as mosques post-7/7 because he couldn't tell the difference. But I don't think that's representative of the mainstream British population as a whole.

However, for those of us who are clean-shaven (both older and younger generations), I think there certainly has been some hostility on the part of white people who cannot tell what religion we are and assume we must be Muslims, especially those of us (eg. me) who look more Pakistani or Middle-Eastern than Indian (on average). Bongsy, you may have personally had different experiences, of course.

But society at large hasn't change its treatment towards Muslims

I'm afraid I'm going to have to politely disagree with you here.

and the government has been particularly soft on the hardline elements.

Absolutely correct, as I mentioned a few times previously on this thread.

That in itself has led to frustration from the public, people certainly are of the opinion that extremism is not being tackled effectively.

Also correct, although I think that to some extent there's a sense of confusion on the part of the British authorities with regards to how to deal with this, especially due to their fears of inadvertantly alienating the rest of the British Muslim population. Of course, the BNP is capitalising on this problem too, ie. "We'll know how to solve 'the Muslim problem' effectively".

I'd guess the UK is more racist towards desis given that desis are the dominant minority. A better comparison would be desis in the UK vs. blacks in the U.S.

Perhaps...certainly some here have drawn parallels between Pakistani ghettos in the North to the black ghettos the world hadn't seen until Katrina. But then again there are more black people, as a percentage, in the US than brown people in the UK. Black people have been in the US for hundreds of years, browns have been here half a century. Black people were still being lynched mere decades ago in the US, Commonwealth citizens were entitled to English education and immigrants received the vote from the 1950s. We haven't had a brown Rodney King or James Byrd Jnr. So trans-Atlantic comparisons are not easy to make.

I'm not denying for a second there are racists in the UK, but I have a difficult time seeing them as more than a tiny minority, as opposed to this widespread fiction that ramanan paints. I can't think of that many countries with as diverse a population which are less racist. France has a mixed makeup and far right politics plays more of a role than here; likewise Germany.

Perhaps you are right Jai, w/r the general public's treatment of Muslims. I realise I live in an atypical part of the country and socialise with an atypical group of people. Higher education, particularly science, has so many non-white faces that the white people tend to be more knowledgeable than your average Joe Bloggs about the different ethnic groups. I would really have to ask Muslim friends what they think.

I'm not denying for a second there are racists in the UK, but I have a difficult time seeing them as more than a tiny minority, as opposed to this widespread fiction that ramanan paints.

I don't think the UK is anywhere near as racist as it was when I was younger -- things here have improved significantly over the last 15 years or so (consider the pariah status of Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning w.r.t their "jokes" aimed at Asians, and I can't even imagine a character like Apu in a British cartoon these days).

However, there is overt racism and a more subtle version. The latter isn't openly hostile but the person concerned isn't necessarily going to go out of their way to be nice to you either. Both exist here in the UK, although it's not as widespread as some people may fear. On the whole I would say that life for Asians here is a hell of a lot better than it used to be and certainly compared to some other parts of the Western world, and the fact that there is now an entire generation of white Brits who have grown up surrounded by desis (neighbourhoods/school/university/professional life/social life) and regard us as a normal part of British society also makes a significant difference, especially in London.

Although, again, it depends on social circle and individual personality, of course.

Jai wrote:

However, there is overt racism and a more subtle version. The latter isn't openly hostile but the person concerned isn't necessarily going to go out of their way to be nice to you either. Both exist here in the UK, although it's not as widespread as some people may fear ... Although, again, it depends on social circle and individual personality, of course.

I nominate Jai as Federal Reserve Board Chairman. Can anyone parse that paragraph?

I'm not denying for a second there are racists in the UK, but I have a difficult time seeing them as more than a tiny minority, as opposed to this widespread fiction that ramanan paints.

I'm not suggesting it's rampant; i'm suggesting that things haven't changed all too much in England as a whole over the last 30 years. I would agree London is probably a very different city now than it was 30 years ago. How much of an effect has that had on the country as a whole? I would suspect very little.

Also: I haven't lived in London in 16 odd years. I can't pretend to know what's it like there now. All I am saying is that when I read a post like this, or when my father reads a post like this, our reactions are the same: it's all the same shit.

Ikram, going one better and parsing the thread, this is my Cliff's Notes version...

Some people dislike those who look different, other people don't.
Some people beat up those they don't like, other people don't.
Some people change, other people don't.
People is people. ( And they don't all live in the UK )

Now back to previously scheduled programming.

Peace

This poll seems related to what is going on...

Anti-Social UK Tops Poll

Updated: 03:54, Tuesday May 09, 2006

Britain has the worst record for anti-social behaviour in Europe. According to a new report,
Britons feel our booze culture and a lack of discipline are the key causes of an escalating problem.
Link

In addition to what Bong Breaker already said... I find the BNP hilarious. Nick Griffin came on TV on election night and said his party was "not racist". So in fact even the racists are on the defensive. Politically, it is unacceptable to be racist, though it's becoming more fashionable to be anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim. While see the latter two as an extension of the former, a more nuanced approach in dealing with the latter two arguments has to be adopted.

[shameless plug] Hooray for the BNP vote [/shameless plug]

the modern tribalist news blog has posted a few stories just in the last week that give the impression that the situation is really deteriorating in the UK. how many people are aware that london now has a crime rate *7* times that of new york city?!

http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/2006/05/total-crime-rates-for-london-have-been.html

and if this the kind of news that regularly makes the papers, then it is no wonder tensions between whites and south asians would be increasing:

http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/2006/05/asian-machete-mob-in-racist-attack-in.html
http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/2006/05/injured-cyclist-slams-british-court.html
http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/2006/05/gang-of-asian-men-hurled-racist-abuse.html
http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/2006/05/british-police-are-trying-to-apprehend.html

also check out http://www.chavscum.co.uk/ for a unique insight into the "chav" culture of britain's white underclass youth.

the modern tribalist news blog

The rudest person I encountered in the UK was a desi woman at Heathrow. But my general observation is that Brits can be pretty grumpy & irritable. It could be the weather.

You guys seem to write essays on here.... lol....Whoever said england is full of racists is very very wrong.. I find Americans to be much more racist and culturally ignorant than the British (i'm talking about middle americans here, i'm a desi-american kid from Colorado and i lived in London for a year) My time in London was the best time in my life, i felt so 'normal' there and even in more rural places in England i never got stared at or got any stick for anything... There seem to be alot of Asians in the "subculture" in London as well, which you don't find alot in america,.. Nothing cooler than going to a club in Camden Town and watching a band all your friends are raving about with a brown skinned lead singer.. it really seems they don't make such a big deal about color of skin in england compared to the US as well... sorry for my poor grammar and spelling, my writing skills are definitely not up to par as most of you guys!

I agree with Sunit about the racism aspect, as London is truly one of the most multicultural cities in the world -ethnicity is embraced as a whole and it is a cultural hub! Rural areas tend to be accepting (when compared to other cities in Europe - I closely escaped being lynched by some Neo Nazi's in Budapest had it not been for my conscientious European (German and Swiss) friends; although from speaking to many of my black friends, they seem to face more racism than the Asians - wonder why this prejudice still exists - it seems that black people are seen as more of a threat - even the Asians are racist towards them, hence the backlash!

On a political perspective and to do with the recent elections, although the BNP seem to be gaining votes, it is more to do with the inadequacy of the Labour party (many promises no delivery), the Conservative party hence gain a stronghold which is what the people seem to want! Since the BNP are a minority party, it is unlikely that they will ever have a stronghold and come to power! It would mean that society as we know it will deteriorate to oblivion if a party that cultivates hatred is allowed into power!

All the best and keep up the excellent blog Sepia guys!
Ashanti OMkar
http://www.OMkari.net
http://www.aworan.net

pormeeoptheous rocks your links are laughably slanted. The seven times New York crime rate made the news here about a year ago - and was rubbished as although more petty crime was reported, serious violent and armed crime and MURDER were not included in the stats. Gun crime here is minimal, although it is on the rise. In those stakes, New York beats London hands down. To be frank, I'd rather have the London police than the NYPD (and I'm no fan of the police) but this is straying from the original topic of racism.

Gun crime here is minimal, although it is on the rise

No doubt about that trend....

Handgun crime 'up' despite ban

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.Link

Another thing about ango-indians compared to indian-americans is the fact that
there always seems to be Indians in the newspapers/magazines/TV/music, etc... in the UK compared to here... We only get "Harold and Kumar" or "Apu" with stupid accents; growing up in high school everybody would ask me if I can speak like Apu and nobody really took me seriously cause i was Indian.. I'm not even going to start on the racist comments i got after 9/11, anyways.. I think because of all of these things that happened to me with stupid ignorant middle-americans i have a pro-UK anti-american attitude right now... Do you think a band like Cornershop would ever make it to #1 in the USA? I don't think so.. In America, most kids were laugh if they hear a sitar on mainstream radio, I was a happy man when Cornershop made it to #1 in the UK (yeeears ago), also its so nice telling someone you are indian and they don't ask you to imitate the APU accent.. lol

Racist -- you mean like not wanting Sonia Gandhi to be prime minister?

I assume all the Desis here realize that India is just as racist as any country in the world, right?

'Racist -- you mean like not wanting Sonia Gandhi to be prime minister?'
right. and we're better at it because we manage to create races (and call them castes)where there aren't any.

The American desis posting their biased and convoluted viewpoints here make me laugh, considering that it seems like a lot of their opinion is filtered through what their baba told them from his time "in UK" scurrying around Manchester or somewhere grim up north decades ago.

I have lived in the US for close to 10 years and in the UK for more than that. IMO, from my *own* experience, the UK and especially London is a lot more welcoming to a brown person such as myself than the US. For the reasons touched on in earlier posts: Indians are more high-profile and play a significant part in daily life. There are a number of brown people in every segment of society, from check-out girls to business tycoons and cutting edge artists. They are not pigeon-holed.

Hear hear to sentiments from BB and Rahul.

I've grown up in the UK and lived in the states for just 5 years.
Asains are far more predominate in everyday society in the UK and at all levels.
I do agree with the premise that there is some rasicm of course in the UK and more so now post 7/7/ towards muslims but it's not as bad as it may seem .
The rascism to Asains is a little like what happens to Blacks here in the US to an extent as someone stated but agin it's not as bad . My mate who is a Black Brit living here in NY states she can't walk down the street in Harlem with her white BF here in NY without getting stares and hassle....that surprised me that this still happens
A lot of communites in the states are far more isolated by race than in the UK where there are hotspots like Bradford etc yes but nothing like it is here in the US where smetimes whole regions are predominately one race and the surrounding areas cater to that community in the types of shops, entertainment etc found...eg Russsians :Brighten Beach, Flushing : Chinese, NJ Jersey City: desis, NJ Palisades area: Korean and so on.
It's not a bad thing but i feel uk is far more integrated than people realise.

Surprised nobody mentioned that the wealthiest person living in the UK as actually a desi... I'm sure that helps our profile there as well

(btw, i've just started watching a few "goodness gracious me" sketches... i think alot of these would never be aired in america, especially the "lets go out for an english" scene

The Kriss Donald story does prove that prejudice and evil work both ways. See the posts re the Africans in India blog, and you will see the proof

I was quite curious about the black/desi relations in the UK compared to those in the US and the Caribbean. Are they equally the same? Do both groups get along or not?

Huey,

Younger-generation desis and black people generally used to get along very well and there was a lot of appropriation of black culture by the young desis concerned (to some extent there still is), but in recent years this has changed as British desis have grown in numbers and public prominence, along with the rise of an indigenous "British desi" subculture.

The two groups aren't really as amicable towards each other as they used to be, broadly-speaking. However, it does depend on where you go and who you speak to.

Thanks. I have another question: What have black people done to have negative reactions and avoidance from South Asians?

Not all black people come from Uganda or Guyana. Do they ever learn about slavery or Jim Crow/Civil Rights Movement, etc. or anything about black/African American history before coming to America?

umm.. yea iv'e seen some comments on sikhs not supporting the BNP even though the BNp do say their are... well the reality is that their are alot of sikh supporters of the bnp me bieng one of them

The issue facing the world today is that the Muslims are trying to take over the world. I have spent 4 years in Iraq and Afghanistan trying to help these people. There is no help for a society that has chosen poverty and illiteracy because the other option would interfere with their religion. These people are never going to change unless they want to. If you are one of the individuals that has overcome the adversity to become a productive citizen then I respect that. although there are too many immigrants that just keep coming in and trying to stake claim in the U.S. in my opinion the borders need to be shut, and a nation wide illegal immigrant clear out needs to happen. That will prevent allot of the extremist bullshit that some of these brainwashed religious freaks have committed or attempted to commit on the soil of the US and the UK. When Australia told all of the immigrants “this is a Christian community if you don't like it GET OUT” they were 100% right. These people expect us to be sensitive to their culture while we are in their country, but, they think they do not have to respect our religion and ways of life in the US. How would Pakistan like it if one of the leaders of the US had asked any and all willing Americans to go to Pakistan and have as many children as possible to turn it into a Christian society in the next 100 years? There would be a war from them. If you don't want it to happen to your country! Then don't do it to ours.
There is no reason that things have to be this way, everyone has their own country that speaks their own language, and has their religion, go there and stay there do not mix in where you do not belong. Unless you are willing and able to drop all of the Muslim brainwashing about some degenerate that converted people at sword point, is a known Pedophile, and has no proof other than he said he saw something. Come on! There has got to be at least one of you in that faith that says WHOA!! I think that marrying a girl at the age of 6 and having intercourse with her when she was 9 is wrong and he needed to be shot for such an act. Get with the rest of the world and conform to where you are, don't think the world will conform to you. Just to make a point, I do not claim any religious sect or belief just because of this crap, that all of the religious nut jobs think if they blow themselves up! They go to heaven. Bullshit!! What needs to happen, is when they detonate the bomb and blow them up, there needs to be someone that takes the remains and feeds it to the pigs. How about that for the extremist who tries it and lives. He would have a bad ending by the swine’s!! And as for some type of recourse to the Iraqi militias, we need to give them some of their own medicine and start sending out car bombs of our own and see how they like it.

No all British are racist people or Anti-Asian, but in recent years the rate of racism has significantly increased.
Reason?
1. The rise of Asia? (maybe afraid of India,Russia and China getting a better life), or joy to see asian living like dog.
2. British investing in asia causing unemployment in UK? or feeling uneasy to see asian getting a job which is lower paid, so call cheap labor.
3. Some lower class British people felt unbalance, when they saw rich "asian" businessmen/women?
4. Discrimination to those "asian" who had different believe? To force muslim to eat pork, forcing Buddist to eat beef, and forcing to chance their asian name to a BRITISH NAME!!!

All those above are assumptions. Most common things happen in Australia and USA!!! White dominant countries.
Before you criticize Every Thing Above, Please read more historical articles, and history background on UK. You will find THE TRUE side of WHITE!