Can't spell.
Poor grammar.
Woeful grasp of English.
Uses MySpace.

I am no longer a fan. Now I pity her.

With the recent crackdown on the Tamil Tigers in Canada, and the upsurge in violence in Sri Lanka, and the increased sensitivity to terrorism, MIA was going to come under scrutiny now.

But this is a stupid decision to take and an idiotic thing to happen - MIA is a threat to American national security? Yeah right.

MIA is a threat to American national security? Yeah right.

Word. Particularly galling when juxtaposed against stories like this one, which I finally read over the weekend:

The C.I.A. flew Sudan's national-security director, Salah Abdallah Ghosh, to Washington for a debriefing last year. He shared information that his office had on Islamist militants training in Sudan before 9/11. Yet he is one of a handful of top security men orchestrating Khartoum's crimes in Darfur and deploying intelligence units that have carried out targeted killings since 2003.

If the U.S. government thinks she's a threat, then they should put their money where their visa policy is by letting her in and then having the guts to prosecute her for something. (Of course, I think I would have said the same thing about the distasteful Mr. Modi, but that's a conversation for some other time.)

AK, Tigress...are you SURE she's not a threat to national security? Maybe the immigration clerk was just very particular with spelling, punctuation and grammar. Maybe they had a thing about using too many exclamation marks. Maybe they were doing their best to maintain the integrity of the glorious English language.

Oh wait, this is America. In that case, let her in!

Uses MySpace. I am no longer a fan. Now I pity her.

Uh, they all use Myspace:

Outernational
Falu
Karsh Kale (Asian Underground NYC)
Cheb i Sabbah (Eclectic)
Midival Punditz (Asian Underground Delhi)
Shiva Soundsystem (Asian Underground)
Janaka Selekta (Asian Underground SF)
Asian Dub Foundation (Asian Underground UK)
Audio Dakoos
Sub Swara (Asian Underground NYC)
Dhruva (Asian Underground)
State of Bengal (Asian Underground UK)
Radiohiro (Asian Underground)
Pathaan (Asian Underground UK)
Sonik Gurus (Asian Underground)
Kollektiv (Asian Underground NYC)
Susheela Raman
Navdeep (Asian Underground LA/NYC)
Talvin Singh (Asian Underground UK)
Maneesh the Twister (Asian Underground SF)
Latafat Ali Khan (Ghazals!)
Temple of Sound (dub and chillout w/ some Qawwali vocals)
Jazzy B (Bhangra, Vancouver)
Sukshinder Shinda (Bhangra, UK)
Vijay Iyer (Jazz, NYC)

I tried to read her blog and it gave me a splitting headache.

come on people,

part of her appeal is the myspace-ness and the blog typos and her crazy naivete in being so provocative about those Tamil Tigers when she is really just a harmless little brown girl tryna get some respect in the hip hop world...

except now its backfired on poor MIA and people actually think she's a terrorist. US citizens need to ask their govt what they are doing spending time, finances and human resources on controlling the movements of an independent muso while neglecting real homeland security issues.

my starcrush mos def survives! let's please not knock an earnest brown girl when she's down, not from the people who invented karma...MIA keep on rolling with your crazy comments, hope you get that visa my darlin. til then keep being incredulously surprised by exotic india on your blog. tales of corrupt politicians with gun-wielding hombres are a bit par for the course for the natives, but we forgive ya.

I am glad this individual was denied a visa. There is a long history of ethnic indian folks (and many others) living in the UK and USA (democracies based on rule of law) supporting and talking up the worst kind of mass murderers in India (South Asia) as "freedom fighters".

Historically, the US and UK govts have taken the attitude: you brown people need to improve your country first, we cant be bothered, this is freedom etc. In this respect, i think there have been positive changes since 9/11 and the London bombings.

I am glad this individual was denied a visa. There is a long history of ethnic indian folks (and many others) living in the UK and USA (democracies based on rule of law) supporting and talking up the worst kind of mass murderers in India (South Asia) as "freedom fighters".

Yeah I agree - it is also fantastic how the USA denied a visa to that blood thirsty cannibal Mr Modi. It is good that the USA has woken up to the evil of people of his ideological stripe and I hope that the American government continues to monitor the fund raising activities and support he has amongst his constituency in their country. For too long have genocidalists under the cover of being elected politicians in India carried out their tyranny with support in the diaspora and with complete impunity. This is a very good thing to have happened after 9/11 and I hope the extreme right wing fascists of the Indian diaspora remain under scrutiny and their barbaric fuhrers are continually denied visas to enter the USA.

I am glad this individual was denied a visa. There is a long history of ethnic indian folks (and many others) living in the UK and USA (democracies based on rule of law) supporting and talking up the worst kind of mass murderers in India (South Asia) as "freedom fighters".

What in the name of Galang-a-lang are you taking about?? Would you care to provide us with evidence of "ethnic indian folks" supporting mass murderers in India or should we just assume every hazel-hued human is aiding terror? How is MIA connected to these phantom abettors? What exactly does "talking up" denote?

Historically, the US and UK govts have taken the attitude: you brown people need to improve your country first, we cant be bothered, this is freedom etc.

Exactly, hence the joint Anglo-American invasion of Iraq. Oh, wait...

It's probably not a good idea for a citizen of a Western nation (eg. the UK or the US) to be openly supporting foreign terrorism within (or against) an allied country. Regardless of whether one is talking about Sri Lanka or Israel, for example, the same principle applies.

You can't always have your cake and eat it.

I dunno - usually, in order for me to eat my cake I need to have it first, no?

I was speaking in the context of a person being a citizen of a certain country and acting in ways which conflict with the international political relationships of that country, and then expecting to get away with it.

Also, considering the current US Administration's stance on global terrorism, it is not surprising that someone perceived to openly support (in spirit if not necessarily in action) a terrorist group was subsequently denied entry to the US, even if the person concerned is "just" a singer rather than an active member of a foreign terrorist outfit. It's common sense that this would happen. What did she expect ?

Are those typos, or is it actually a language? What I mean is, wouldn't it be much odder if she spoke in slang all the time, and then wrote her blog in pristine prose?

As for myspace, if it's good enough for Vijay Iyer, it's good enough for me.

It's not just South Asian terrorists that are feeling the heat. People in America forget that for thirty years terorrists killed thousands of people with the blessing by ommision of America and her establishment. The IRA was funded directly by the Irish American community of Boston and New York and their apologists were lauded by the Kennedy's and other politicians who gave them leeway because of the Irish vote and romantic notions of the Irish freedom fighter - all the while as the IRA blew up innocents in London, Belfast, Birmingham, Warrington - including children. Americans have a short memory and tend to forget all this when advising other countries on the terrorists in their midst. After 9/11 the British government made sure this inconsistency did not stand. It took the deaths of people in New York for Americans to understand this - but in Britain people were quite cynical about the new found opposition to terrorism in America, in light of their laissez fair attitude to the IRA for so long.

Uh, they all use Myspace

ew, but that doesn't make it ok.

Imagine-- a desi kid who doesn't medal at spelling?!

MIA is an LTTE-songstress? I don't think things are so simple. Regardless, it's the US' prerogative to decide who they want to let into their borders. The fact you need to get a visa to transit through the US suggests the US don't know what they are doing when it comes to visas anyway.

There is an important substantive difference in the denial of visa to Modi and MIA. MIA is a singer. She is neither materially supporting the LTTE nor is she as far as I know, a member of the LTTE. Modi’s case was entirely different. He was in a position of power/authority during the Gujarat riots. Irrespective of how one feels about Modi’s role in the Gujarat riots, one can surely see the difference between Modi’s case and MIA.

MIA keep on rolling with your crazy comments, hope you get that visa my darlin.
here here!
i'll give her my passport. people say i look like her anyway.
i love her! i'm all for any indian woman stirring things up anyway she can!

i'm all for any indian woman stirring things up anyway she can!

Ummm....she's Sri Lankan.

here here!

one can surely see the difference between Modi’s case and MIA.

At one level, this is unassailably true. The legal bases for denying or granting entry are different in each case. Modi was excluded for committing serious human right violations in Gujarat, while MIA seems to have been excluded in a completely arbitrary fashion for reasons that still remain somewhat of a mystery. (Although surely the *claim* must be that she's giving material support to terrorism. That has to be what's going on here, right? She did have visa trouble last year, as I recall, and had to cancel a number of tour dates -- I think a Google search or Abhi's M.I.A. scrapbook could confirm that.)

And therein lies the connection between the two, for there is something deeply flawed about using visa/admission policy to advance these other goals when we do so on the cheap and half-assed. MIA gets excluded without any full and fair adjudication of what she may or may not have done -- and yet she now will be tarred with the charge of "material support," fairly or unfairly. By contrast, Modi probably *should* be tried for gross human rights violations -- or at minimum, be subject to a civil suit that will allow victims and their family members to hold him accountable. (Had he come into the US, there was a substantial likelihood that he would have been sued under the Alien Tort Statute, which would have been a constructive and useful thing.) And yet, he too is excluded without any full and fair adjudication of what happens, and here the problem is exactly the opposite. On the one hand, excluding him minimizes the gravity of what he did, by essentially allowing the U.S. to conclude that it is "not our problem" or concern -- even though genocide is a crime over which there is universal jurisdiction and an obligation for every state in the world to either prosecute or extradite for prosecution. Exclusion also doesn't create any definitive factual record of what actually happened or really hold him accountable, which are both important elements in making victims whole, and coming to terms with/bringing some sense of closure to what happened. At the same time, he and his sympathizers can now claim to be victims of U.S. unfairness and arbitrariness.

And looking at the full range of examples like MIA, the guy from Sudan, and others (there are quite a few others), there actually is some truth to the notion that the application of these policies is highly arbitrary. I'm not saying that people who do bad things should never be excluded from the US -- but the way we do it is pretty arbitrary. There certainly aren't any clear standards -- whether substantive or procedural -- to guide the government's decision-making, or really much by way of process to ensure that those decisions are made in a sober and fair manner for which U.S. decisionmakers *themselves* may be held accountable.

We (and I) also shouldn't speak too soon -- lots and lots of people have had visa trouble since 9/11 for reasons that turn out to be wholly innocuous (in the sense that there is no serious suspicion involved, just procedural rules that cause the process of getting admission to grind to a halt). For all we know, that may be all that's going on here. There could any number of things going on -- it is, after all, immigration law we're talking about, perhaps second only to the tax code in its ridiculousness.

Has anyone thought that maybe she wasn't allowed into America simply because she forgot to renew her visa in time or something like that?

Has anyone thought that maybe she wasn't allowed into America simply because she forgot to renew her visa in time or something like that?

Yes, that's precisely the kind of thing I was getting at -- we all have been jumping to a lot of conclusions, me included. It could be any number of things, for all we know at this point.

AK writes: >>At the same time, he(Modi) and his sympathizers can now claim to be victims of U.S. unfairness and arbitrariness

Oh! So you've realised that finally! Damn.

M. Nam

At the same time, he(Modi) and his sympathizers can now claim to be victims of U.S. unfairness and arbitrariness

I will add that to the list of grievance that tolerant Hindus of the 20 billion year old civilisation of Vedic Tolerance face alongside our perpetual rape by Abrahamics in general.

Hail Mogambo!

Oh! So you've realised that finally!

Ummm, I said "claim." I didn't say that he's a legitimate victim in any sense -- in fact, I believe that I said he should be prosecuted for genocide. (And I don't know where you get "finally," since I don't believe that I've ever had the pleasure of discussing this issue with you before.)

AK,
I especially like your idea of Modi being sued under the Alien Tort Statute. Of course we need for him to be physically present in the US to serve process, so if his visa is not denied this time over, it might not be as bad a thing.

Jai:

It's probably not a good idea for a citizen of a Western nation (eg. the UK or the US) to be openly supporting foreign terrorism within (or against) an allied country. Regardless of whether one is talking about Sri Lanka or Israel, for example, the same principle applies.

I hope that in this affirmation, you are taking into consideration the involvement of both the US and the UK governments and its dealings with Israel.

Also, considering the current US Administration's stance on global terrorism, it is not surprising that someone perceived to openly support (in spirit if not necessarily in action) a terrorist group was subsequently denied entry to the US

What is the "US Administration's stance on global terrorism"?
Also, being a "terrorist group" doesn't necessarily bar entry into the US. The US has had a record of hosting unsavory fellows on its soil.

Divine Comedy:

The IRA was funded directly by the Irish American community of Boston and New York and their apologists were lauded by the Kennedy's and other politicians who gave them leeway because of the Irish vote and romantic notions of the Irish freedom fighter - all the while as the IRA blew up innocents in London, Belfast, Birmingham, Warrington - including children.

While I agree with you, I also think it is important to point out that the UK government also terrorized people in Ireland. This is not to justify the IRA's actions, but I don't think it is correct to leave out government actions.

If we are to speak of "terrorism"-- keep in mind that there is no consensus on the definition of the term "terrorism"-- I think we should also include state terrorism, ie that practiced by states.

While I agree with you, I also think it is important to point out that the UK government also terrorized people in Ireland. This is not to justify the IRA's actions, but I don't think it is correct to leave out government actions.

Right OK, super, thanks for the context, but still, Irish Americans, tolerated by the US government, and supported by Democrats like Ted Kennedy, sent millions of dollars into the coffers of the IRA which went to buying explosives and guns which were used to kill children, men and women in their thousands. The British government over the 30 years of the Troubles did not systematically 'terrorise' in the way that the IRA supported by their American Irish ringmasters killed. Simple fact. The USA was a safe house for Irish Republican terrorists for a long long time.

If we are to speak of "terrorism"-- keep in mind that there is no consensus on the definition of the term "terrorism"-- I think we should also include state terrorism, ie that practiced by states.

1.Sorry, I wasn't specific in the above statement. To clarify the above statement, there is no international consensus on the definition of "terrorism", both in international law and in the UN. Furthermore, every government uses the term "terrorism" as it is convenient for them.

2. State terrorism is NOT comparable to individual and/or group terrorists.

Divine Comedy:

The USA was a safe house for Irish Republican terrorists for a long long time.

I am not disputing this fact.

The British government over the 30 years of the Troubles did not systematically 'terrorise' in the way that the IRA supported by their American Irish ringmasters killed. Simple fact.

You are entitled to your opinion.

CAD,

I hope that in this affirmation, you are taking into consideration the involvement of both the US and the UK governments and its dealings with Israel.

I am not referring to governments and, although I understand your point, that is a entirely separate argument. I am referring to (for example) British-based citizens who espouse, glorify, and support acts of terrorism within/against foreign states which are "friendly" to the UK. As you are no doubt aware, the UK currently has some problems with certain members of the British population who support Islamist terrorism. Rightly or wrongly, it would be both misguided and, perhaps, naive to expect there to be no consequences of proclaiming vocal support for such groups.

The same principle applies to American citizens too, of course, along with the issues inherent in domestic individuals supporting foreign terrorist groups based on religion, ethnicity, nationalistic concepts, and so on.

What is the "US Administration's stance on global terrorism"?

I believe you already know the answer to that, vis-a-vis the current "War on Terror" etc.

Also, being a "terrorist group" doesn't necessarily bar entry into the US. The US has had a record of hosting unsavory fellows on its soil.

The US is not a monarchy and, therefore, the agendas and positions of the individuals & groups at the executive levels changes with time according to the person occupying the Oval Office along with the political parties in control of the other branches of government. It's incorrect to ascribe political policies from decades past to any individuals or groups currently in power, as the latter may not necessarily agree with the former. Times change, depending whoever is "at the top".

CAD,

While I agree with you, I also think it is important to point out that the UK government also terrorized people in Ireland.

Excuse me, "the" UK government ? The administration currently in 10 Downing Street ? The same people, and the same Prime Minister ?

Governments change with time. That's the whole basis of democracy ;)

Cheap Ass Desi

It is not an opinion - it is a fact. The IRA were responsible for the deaths of almost 2000 innocent people in the thirty years before the ceasefire. Loyalist paramilitaries had a similar death toll. The British government DID NOT place bombs in dustbins blowing up nine year old children in Warrington, they did not place bombs in pubs in Birmingham and Guildford slaughtering dozens of innocents enjoying a drink, they did not shoot dead a six month old baby who happened to be being held by his father who was an off duty soldier. They did not place bombs in the high street of Omagh slaughtering thirty Saturday afternoon shoppers. The IRA did all of this. It is a simple fact - the British government did not terrorise like the Irish Republican Army did, no matter how you wish to deny that out of an instinct to relativise the violence perpetrated by ideological fascists and terrorists.

This was why in Britain there were sneers of cynicism when all of a sudden after 9/11 Americans started telling people to give up their terrorists - when America had been turning a blind eye to terrorist support and funding from the Irish American community in Boston and New York.

It is dismaying to me that none of the commentators are willing to recognize the LTTE as a pol-potist and hyperviolent regime. Based on the comments so far, it appears that publicly celebrating suicide bombing in music or appropriating LTTE symbols is viewed as sort of the same as supporting Howard Stern or some other freaky but harmless group.

I am no fan of GWB, I am glad that Modi got a kick on his behind instead of a visa, but shouldnt musicians who advertise being linked to extremist groups be challenged about their affiliations?

Nagarjuna,

It is dismaying to me that none of the commentators are willing to recognize the LTTE as a pol-potist and hyperviolent regime

Several people on this thread have been doing exactly this, indirectly if not necessarily directly, as this thread is about MIA's support for the terrorist group and not about the group itself.

shouldnt musicians who advertise being linked to extremist groups be challenged about their affiliations?

Yes, absolutely.

No big deal here. If MIA gets flagged for voicing her opinions of an organization that has met the general criteria for a 'terrorist' group, too bad. SHE has to live with the consequences of promoting such philosophy.

It's totally cool when a girl, who has some cheeky music, dances around and gets everybody all excited. She should get a pass, totally. So exotic.

It is our country. Getting a visa isn't some fundamental human right or requirement. If she had the balls and conviction, she'd say,"Well, screw you, I'll keep preaching away with my music, I don't need the United States."

But she wants the money, fame, fortune, and promotion. Timberland is waiting for her.

I sleep so much better at night knowing they foiled the plot to threaten America with music from the ’70s. Playing ‘Where’s Osama?’ pales in comparison.

Although I believe the Cat Stevens move was pretty stupid(since from what I've read, he's an ardent pacifist), IF MIA got denied on the basis for supporting/promoting LTTE philosophy, it would alteast be consistent. If some potential terrorists have been denied visas, how will you know that? What are the reject rates of 'deserving' vs. 'undeserving' candidates? Denying a visa (rightly or wrongly) has nothing to do with forces looking for Osama. Even if we had captured and killed Osama or other terrorists on foreign soil, the dynamic/mechanism involved in attacking [the terrorist] on foreign soil vs. denying them entry is different. The state dept and military are the right and left hands of US foreign policy. Say, when all facts are out and about, the State dept is denying a whole host of alleged terrorists entry while barring some'deserving' candidates. Now, if the left hand (Decisions as Commander in Chief) is missing the hook after the right cross has landed (denying terrorists and some other folk caught in the dragnet entry), it is a problem.

Considering the 9-11 guys got here legally, their over cautious effort doesn't give me heartburn. Not having caught Osama is a valid and strong argument in itself.

The Indian scientist denied a visa was stupid (which the state dept officially anted up to.) Cat Stevens/ Yusuf Islam denied a visa was stupid. These examples show the govt is more on a default 'reject' mode. I will sleep better since the bad guys aren't getting in. It does annoy me that mistakes like these give us bad press for not doing enough homework. MIA being denied a visa is not illogical, maybe extreme, but not illogical.

I'm interested in what general reactions would be if you'd replace MIA with a muslim woman supporting Islamic fascists (say Hamas) 'lyrically'?

Especially now that the whole nightmare cycle of violence in Sri Lanka looks like it might be starting up again, which will see more innocents dying, it is especially important that she is challenged on her views on the LTTE.

I'm interested in what general reactions would be if you'd replace MIA with a muslim woman supporting Islamic fascists (say Hamas) 'lyrically'?

My point exactly. A singer may not necessarily be actively involved in financing, planning, or executing terrorist acts, but as a "cheerleader" for the terrorist group, he or she can't seriously expect there to be no legal or political consequences. Especially in the current global climate.

SHE has to live with the consequences of promoting such philosophy.

I'm interested in what general reactions would be if you'd replace MIA with a muslim woman supporting Islamic fascists (say Hamas) 'lyrically'?

A singer may not necessarily be actively involved in financing, planning, or executing terrorist acts, but as a "cheerleader" for the terrorist group, he or she can't seriously expect there to be no legal or political consequences.

Wait a minute, legal consequences for "cheerleading," for mere speech and opinion? Last time I checked that's protected. If she's buying guns for them that's different, but then let's please have some evidence. Don't like what she's saying in her songs? Then write your own songs in opposition to her. Or become a music critic. ;)

legal consequences for "cheerleading," for mere speech and opinion? Last time I checked that's protected.

I'm a British citizen so I'm afraid someone here will have to clarify this for me -- Glorification of terrorism isn't an offence in the United States ?

nagarjuna, Khmer Rouge killed upwards of 1 million Cambodians. If you think they are in anyway similar to the LTTE, you are a dumbass.

Divine Comedy, you may think the UK weren't all too bad in the way they dealt with Ireland, but I suspect there are plenty of people that would disagree with you.

I still don't buy this argument that MIA is promoting violence in Sri Lanka.

it is especially important that she is challenged on her views on the LTTE.

It's also especially important that people who assign views to others be challenged for it. She uses the imagery, she uses the terms but so what? Does that use constitute support? Like i've said before on here, maybe she's just using the elements that played a significant role in her upbringing. If the reasoning for denying the VISA is that the US finds terrorist imagery unappetizing, then fine, that's a valid objection. If it's based on the notion that she supports the tigers then that needs to be challenged. She herself says she's neutral regarding the conflict.

Glorification of terrorism isn't an offence in the United States ?

Expand that to: "Glorification and support of terrorism....."

Is the LTTE recognised by the US as an outlawed terrorist group ?

If the answer to either of these questions is "Yes", then surely that further validates MIA running into legal problems with regards to entry to the US ?

I'm a British citizen so I'm afraid someone here will have to clarify this for me -- Glorification of terrorism isn't an offence in the United States ?

Where exactly does she say, "go blow yourself up, terrorism is great." I don't think I've heard her in an interview, or in her music, come out explicitly in favour of the LTTE. She uses LTTE imagery in her music and art work. Is this a glorification of terrorism? I somehow doubt it.

On preview: what Ananthan said.

Wait a minute, legal consequences for "cheerleading," for mere speech and opinion? Last time I checked that's protected.

Cheerleading is protected, not the consequences of it (social, legal, personal, etc.) Also, she isn't a United States citizen. Legally speaking, BIG DIFFERENCE.

MIA hasn't been persecuted or thrown in jail for her opinion. Maya can still sing, dance, and an do her weird thing until she drops. Just not on US soil. Equating being denied a visa in her case and some type of 'injustice' or persecution is not valid.

Don't like what she's saying in her songs? Then write your own songs in opposition to her.

I'd be as bad as her :), as for a music critic, I'll wRigHT SoME naSTY rEviEW on HeR MYSPACE!!!! ROTFLOL!!!

Ananthan

Surely you are not suggesting that there is anything unreasonable in suggesting that she be challenged on the LTTE given that her iconography and music plays with the tropes of the organisation? Especially in the light of the tension and break down in the ceasefire in Sri Lanka at the moment? That is all I say - she should be challenged on this. She cannot expect that gangsta rap chic and people's innocent thrill at her whole image gives her a free pass?

AK

Wait a minute, legal consequences for "cheerleading," for mere speech and opinion? Last time I checked that's protected. If she's buying guns for them that's different, but then let's please have some evidence. Don't like what she's saying in her songs? Then write your own songs in opposition to her. Or become a music critic. ;)

This is all fine, except that is only applicable to persons in the US soil. It is the US Govt prerogative in denying a visa.

You guys were all gungho when Modi was denied a visa. Hope the US govt applies the same logic to Sonia Gandhi and the rest of the Congress govt (The 1984 pogrom in Delhi and teh rest of India was the worst and you know who was responsible). Atleast be consistent.

Divine Comedy, you may think the UK weren't all too bad in the way they dealt with Ireland, but I suspect there are plenty of people that would disagree with you.

I know the faults of the British government in Ireland. I also know that the IRA were a murderous and fascistic terrorist outfit. The British government did not carry out mass slaughter like the IRA did. Simple fact that irks those who lust and glamourise terrorists.

She herself says she's neutral regarding the conflict.

I call bullshit. Maybe she just finds the LTTE fashionable and cool, like totally rebellious and stuff. Like all the kids sporting CHE T-Shirts.

It all depends on what you mean by "support." Typically, mere speech in "support" of a group's goals, aspirations, and even activities is not sufficient to warrant punishment. The immigration context is different, in that the government has tremendous discretion to act in ways that would otherwise be deemed arbitrary. But at least at the level of principle, punishing someone for speech and association only raises all kinds of human rights concerns. For the nerdy among you with some time on your hands, see David Cole's summary of some of the issues (in a related but different context).

US Govt prerogative in denying a visa.

You guys were all gungho when Modi was denied a visa. Hope the US govt applies the same logic to Sonia Gandhi and the rest of the Congress govt (The 1984 pogrom in Delhi and teh rest of India was the worst and you know who was responsible). Atleast be consistent.

Which leads me back to the point that this "prerogative" is (or perhaps is, since we don't yet know the facts) being exercised arbitrarily. Just because there is formal legal authority to do something doesn't mean that however it is exercised is therefore just.

I won't speak for others, but I wasn't "gung ho" about Modi's exclusion at the time, though I wasn't shedding any tears for him either. I want the guy to be prosecuted or otherwise held accountable, and here would have been as good a place as any other. As for Sonia Gandhi, I think the suggestion that her role in 1984 was equivalent to Modi's is a bit ridiculous. Others in the Congress Party, absolutely -- but what's your evidence about her role?

But at least at the level of principle, punishing someone for speech and association only raises all kinds of human rights concerns.

Wasn't that the argument used by the British to allow hardcore islamists entry/residency in the UK (some of whom have 'floated' over to active support vs. simply spouting philosophy?)

The US should show that free speech does have consequences. No one will stop you from saying what you will, but that does not mean you can simply get away from spewing crap while shedding away personal responsibily under the guise of free speech.

In my opinion, foreign policy gets too entreched in dogmatic theories without any flexibility. It is tricky. There will never be a one size fits all.

I call bullshit. Maybe she just finds the LTTE fashionable and cool, like totally rebellious and stuff.

What songs of hers do you think are pro-LTTE? What interviews have you read where she comes out in favour of the LTTE and violent struggle in Sri Lanka.

right on, gujudude. she takes this wishy-washy stance on a serious politcal situation. if she doesn't have a strong stance on it, i wonder why she even feels compelled to address it at all. frankly, she seems very uninformed. i could kind of understand, the first time around; when she first came out, her reflecting on her own personal experience. but now, you'd think she'd know a little more about the situation, outside her own family's perspective. since people have called her out on it, so she should know better. she was getting better about it, but she still uses the ltte and sri lanka as an "exotic" commodities to sell her music.

she doesn't go around saying "i'm pro-LTTE!" but the fact that she incorporates it into her artwork, her music (references to suicide bombers, etc), her album title; makes it a part of her image. no, she doesn't say in her lyrics, "i support suicide bombing!" but she does reference it, and not in a negative way. maybe that's not enough for some to constitute "glorification," but if you are someone that has been effected by the conflict in sri lanka, you don't take those references so lightly.

Cheerleading is protected, not the consequences of it (social, legal, personal, etc.)

Er, that would mean that it isn't protected. And simply saying that she "isn't a U.S. citizen" doesn't by itself justify (1) treating her differently from US citizens, or (2) treating her differently from other non-U.S. citizens. I think you need to make more of an argument in favor of your position. In what sense is her speech even demonstrably harmful, except perhaps in emboldening certain people who can't dance to think that they can? (For that, maybe we should be deporting Eminem and many others.)

but that does not mean you can simply get away from spewing crap while shedding away personal responsibily under the guise of free speech

You sure you want the "spewing crap etc" standard to be your touchstone? on that basis, we should probably be shutting down Fox News and maybe going after half the White House staff.

What songs of hers do you think are pro-LTTE? What interviews have you read where she comes out in favour of the LTTE and violent struggle in Sri Lanka.

It isn't about one particular quote or line as it is about her overall presentation [ The collection of all the tid bits, by in themselves don't say much, but put it together and there seems to be a pattern.]

Thats my opinion, everybody else's miles may vary.

I won't speak for others, but I wasn't "gung ho" about Modi's exclusion at the time, though I wasn't shedding any tears for him either. I want the guy to be prosecuted or otherwise held accountable, and here would have been as good a place as any other. As for Sonia Gandhi, I think the suggestion that her role in 1984 was equivalent to Modi's is a bit ridiculous. Others in the Congress Party, absolutely -- but what's your evidence about her role?

AK, thanks for keeping it real. I too, was not "gung ho" about Modi's exclusion precisely because of this reason. You make your bed and then you lie in it. Or rather, other people make your bed and put bed bugs in it, and then you complain about the bites.

Relying on the immigration policies of the United States government (particularly ideological exclusion) to accomplish social justice goals--particularly at a time like this--is a terrible idea. I won't even get into Emma Goldman or Marcus Garvey right now.

And as for artists affected by the immigration system:

You can add to the list: Slick Rick--was getting deported; Thea Som--was also getting deported; a couple of bands from Cuba and Indonesia, respectively --visa problems; and everyone listed in this google search.

As for Sonia Gandhi, I think the suggestion that her role in 1984 was equivalent to Modi's is a bit ridiculous. Others in the Congress Party, absolutely -- but what's your evidence about her role?

Well, she may have not participated directly as it was her husband who was involved and she was not part of the power structure then. But she was definitely part of the coverup and the whitewash that is going on now. And a few more years from now all the evidence and witnesses (whatever exists after so many years) will be be gone and you (not you as AK but in a generic jolwallahs) will be asking to show evidence that the things that happened in 1984 really happened. That is why I said be consistent. The blood on the hands of the opposition to Modi is worse. I am not making excuses or saying two wrongs make it right. Actually two wrongs are two wrongs and should be dealt with the same gusto.

AK, thanks for keeping it real. I too, was not "gung ho" about Modi's exclusion precisely because of this reason.

I was very gung ho on getting Modi's visa rejected and I am going to be even more hung go to get it rejected yet again if he does try come to come over (some newsreports say hes trying to come over)

I expect the government to judiciously use its visa denying ability. Thousands of visas are refused everyday by US consulates across the world for unexplained reasons. I am not sure if denying a visa to Modi had any bearing whatsoever on the visa being denied to Cat Stevens or anybody else. I understand the part about setting a bad 'precedent', but we didnt set the precedence when Modi's visa was denied. The precedent has been firmly in place for decades and frankly I dont see any practical solutions to this problem. The State Department logistically cannot provide a review process to the hundreds of thousands of denied visa appliers.
So the State Department will continue (as it has been for decades) to deny a very small fraction of visas on ideological grounds. I see no reason why we should take the moral high ground when its clear that our stance will have no bearing whatsoever on future denial of visas on ideological grounds by the State Department.

Cheerleading is protected, not the consequences of it (social, legal, personal, etc.) Also, she isn't a United States citizen. Legally speaking, BIG DIFFERENCE.

The standards of legal culpability are for the most part, same for both citizens and non-citizens. Of course, aliens face immigrations consequences which are not faced by citizens.

Well, she may have not participated directly as it was her husband who was involved and she was not part of the power structure then. But she was definitely part of the coverup and the whitewash that is going on now. And a few more years from now all the evidence and witnesses (whatever exists after so many years) will be be gone and you (not you as AK but in a generic jolwallahs) will be asking to show evidence that the things that happened in 1984 really happened. That is why I said be consistent. The blood on the hands of the opposition to Modi is worse. I am not making excuses or saying two wrongs make it right. Actually two wrongs are two wrongs and should be dealt with the same gusto.

But see, here's the thing. Two things, actually. (1) Immigration exclusion will never, even under the most enlightened administration, give any of us an opportunity to develop what the facts actually are in the way that prosecution or even a truth commission would. You might be right about Sonia Gandhi, or I might be (though I don't purport to know every last detail without further research). Either way, there's no way that US immigration policy is the right way to go about determining those kinds of facts and holding wrongdoers accountable, and yet so many of us talk about these issues as if it is legitimately or effectively a "stand in" for that kind of process. (2) Consistency in the use of immigration exclusion for these kinds of goals will inevitably be elusive -- again, probably even under the most enlightened administration, but certainly in the hands of those inclined to use that power arbitrarily. It just won't happen, certainly not without clear standards and a different kind of process.

So I think I'm being entirely consistent -- let both of them in, and then let MIA perform on Summerstage w/DJ Rekha and indict Modi for genocide.

(Now, why you think opponents to Modi have "blood on their hands" in a "worse" way -- worse than whom? -- not sure I understand that one.)

AMfd, I think that allowing Modi in would have spurred a number of really healthy political processes that were interrupted by denying him entry. There was the ATS suit, as I mentioned, which probably would likely have been filed and served had he come here. But also would have been the power of protesters tailing him at every appearance, there also was a political process within the community, amongst pro- and anti-Modi Indian Americans, that would have been healthy, since it would have caused people to really think about, confront, and deal with our own transnational roles in what happens in the subcontinent. That long distance nationalism is an important part of what's been going on for the last several years (and longer).

And I don't think we got very much in return for sacrificing those processes. Perhaps we did deprive him of the possibility of shopping at Bloomingdale's, but he appeared at the AAHOA conference anyway, by video linkup, and got to wrap himself in the martyrdom of claiming (emphasis added, this time, so there's no confusion) to be a victim of the U.S.

On balance? I think I would have let Bloomie's take his money.

Of course, aliens face immigrations consequences which are not faced by citizens.

Having practiced immigration law a bit, I certainly know this all too well. But the question remains whether that different treatment is justified in any given context.

(Now, why you think opponents to Modi have "blood on their hands" in a "worse" way -- worse than whom? -- not sure I understand that one.)

I guess you have never lived in India and/or your source of info is only NY Times, WP etc and any other Indian sources of recent vintage. Go and look at the last 40-50 years of Indian politics and governing and you will know what I am speaking of.

There was the ATS suit, as I mentioned, which probably would likely have been filed and served had he come here.

Be careful playing with fire. This impugns on the rights of a soverign nation. Whatever said and done, it is only the duly elected Govt of India who have the right to indict or prosecute Modi. India to kindly remind you, is not a Banana republic. If the US court would have taken it up, it would have diplomatic consequences. Maybe, the US State Dept was afraid of this and decided that it was best to not give Modi a visa, because they can't control the left wing loonies, but couched it in a different language. Who knows.

Er, that would mean that it isn't protected. And simply saying that she "isn't a U.S. citizen" doesn't by itself justify (1) treating her differently from US citizens, or (2) treating her differently from other non-U.S. citizens. I think you need to make more of an argument in favor of your position. In what sense is her speech even demonstrably harmful, except perhaps in emboldening certain people who can't dance to think that they can? (For that, maybe we should be deporting Eminem and many others.)

Let me clarify: By legal I was not implying she has commited a crime. The statement was more general and it encompasses not only something criminal, but a civil beef, too (hypothetically a Sri Lankan group against the LTTE that may sue regardless of the case's merit. The consequence of such an action would be to spend money to defend herself.) My general point was that people believe free speech entitles them to protection against whatever the consequence of said free speech may be. I should have been more clear and simply state those consequences for said free speech can range the full spectrum, depending on the content of it. People asking her about stuff that alludes to support for the LTTE and wanting clarification is a part of that. The ambiguity of her responses are also a part of this issue, especially when it comes to immigration where it may get highlighted.

All of this would be moot if this whole issue boils down to something procedural.

By her not being a US citizen, she is a guest when in the United States. If she makes it here, she is entitled to say whatever she wishes. Not being a citizen doesn't imply she does not have the same free speech rights. My primary issue is with the fact that people have taken a tone that she almost has a right to be here. No she doesn't. In her case, if the government feels they don't want to let someone in who they believe glorifies an outfit such as the LTTE, I don't have any heartburn.

Another administration may make a different choice. She is just an artist who has an unsavory connection at best and actively supports a terrorist group at worst. Not allowing her on US soil is the administration's decision and I have no problem with them exercising it.

No argument on the dancing thing. Jesus, it really is bad.

You sure you want the "spewing crap etc" standard to be your touchstone? on that basis, we should probably be shutting down Fox News and maybe going after half the White House staff.

Fine, I'll use 'splurging feces' standard as my touchstone. If that was really the case not only would Fox News shut down, but I'd bring the axe down on all network television, all cable news networks, most of hollywood, send Keven Federline to some secret prison where he can stop impregnating women along with singing PoPozao, and loop only the disovery channel, history channel, scifi channel, PBS, HBO, WGN games of the Chicago Cubs (I know, this year is the year and they suck), games of the Chicago Bears.... [JUST KIDDING]

The standards of legal culpability are for the most part, same for both citizens and non-citizens. Of course, aliens face immigrations consequences which are not faced by citizens.

You are correct.

Having practiced immigration law a bit, I certainly know this all too well. But the question remains whether that different treatment is justified in any given context.

The answer is it depends (on her true stance), and thats why we're all having this discussion. Right?

I see no reason why we should take the moral high ground when its clear that our stance will have no bearing whatsoever on future denial of visas on ideological grounds by the State Department.

I agree with you that there's a long and sordid history of the immigration system being used to eliminate ideological oppoonents (and on other grounds, including religion, HIV status, political affiliation, "idiocy", etc.). I don't see what the cost-benefit is that justifies perpetuating that here.

There are a million and one other tactics one can use to call attention to how reprehensible the actions of Modi (and the people who are raising money for him and his ilk) can be. Why choose one that will give moral credibility to the U.S. government's ability to deny visas and deport people and exclude people willfully on the basis of whatever it wants with little to no accountability?

If Modi had entered the United States, there was planned a large protest at Madison Square Garden that would have prompted more dialogue and brought more attention to the fact that many, many NRIs are raising money for Hindutva. Instead, you have a visa denial and a victory for the Bush Administration's "we care about democracy" pr machine.

Hindutvavadi --

This impugns on the rights of a soverign nation.

Actually, I don't think it does. The suit would not have been by the US government but by private parties harmed by Modi. In any event, sovereignty is a constrained concept in this era, and genocide is a crime for which there is universal jurisdiction, and every country in the world has an obligation to prosecute or extradite the genocidaires.

I guess you have never lived in India and/or your source of info is only NY Times, WP etc and any other Indian sources of recent vintage. Go and look at the last 40-50 years of Indian politics and governing and you will know what I am speaking of.

Whoa, no need to resort to ad hominems, especially since you know almost nothing about me. All I asked was you to clarify what you meant, since it wasn't self-evidently clear -- or self-evidently justified. (You seem to think that you can just assert conclusions that justify themselves, and that is sufficient, rather than actually engaging in reasoned argument to back up your assertions.)

Gujudude --

My general point was that people believe free speech entitles them to protection against whatever the consequence of said free speech may be. I should have been more clear and simply state those consequences for said free speech can range the full spectrum, depending on the content of it.

Of course, civil legal consequences can be infringements upon free speech just as much as criminal punishment in many circumstances -- that's why a private plaintiff who is a public figure is required to show "actual malice" to win in a libel lawsuit against a newspaper. Your more general point ("if the government feels they don't want to let someone in who they believe glorifies an outfit such as the LTTE, I don't have any heartburn") gives me heartburn to the extent that it's an invitation to government arbitrariness, rather than evenhandedness and in a reasoned manner, in the enforcement of the immigration laws. Yes, she doesn't have a "right" to enter the United States. But when the government can act arbitrarily in application of the immigration laws, rather than in a reasoned and principled manner, that should be troubling to all of us. If we're going to start enforcing the immigration laws against MIA for material support of the LTTE, then I've got a long list of people that should be held equally culpable but who will probably be able to enter the US without much trouble. At all.

Bottom line for me is that I think there has to be some evidence of overt, concrete action before we start holding people responsible for "support" for terrorism. If she's buying them guns, that's one thing. If they don't like what she has to say -- that doesn't seem justified.

Finally, before I pull a Cheap Ass Desi and disappear for a while, watch it there with talk of shutting down the SciFi Channel. You want to incur the Wrath of Abhi???

The only thing an ATS suit does it to bring attention to the matter - I have not heard a single individual who has been penalised by this legislation since the 1860's (pre-piracy days).

AMFD: >>I was very gung ho on getting Modi's visa rejected

This means that you don't trust the Congress/Communist Partis/Laloo etc as well. Which means you don't trust the whole legal and constitutional machinery in India. Which means you think India is a Banana republic on the lines of Sudan or Hollywood.

See - if the visa was rejected while the BJP was in power at the centre ( thwarting an honest inquiry into the riots being a legitimate accusation), then I would have understood. However, in May 2004, the BJP lost the elections, and the "Secular" forces came to power. I am sure they have tried every rule in the book to bring Modi down - the fact that they have been un-successful goes to show one thing: Modi is innocent. If he were even half as guilty as he is made out to be, the Congress/Communist combine would have eaten him for breakfast.

But the visa was rejected after eight months of Congress rule. Which means that the US State department rejected it for unknown reasons (most likely to curry favor with islamic groups). Modi was a martyr by default.

M. Nam

The fact that they have been un-successful goes to show one thing: Modi is innocent.

Impeccable logic. You say the same thing about Karadzic and Mladic in Serbia? Pinochet until he was finally brought to justice? India doesn't have to be a "banana republic" for its system of justice to fail in a case like this one.

So the State Department will continue (as it has been for decades) to deny a very small fraction of visas on ideological grounds. I see no reason why we should take the moral high ground

Then why in some liberal circles, an outcry over Washington's denial to release Palestenian Aid money, just because Hamas got elected?

Its clear that US administration doesnt care about Democracy, but cares more about hegemony. Thats why "Hamas" getting democratically elected in a free and fair election spurred by Washington under supervision from the world, doesnt mean anything to Washington.

You may ask how is this related to Modi? Well, because Modi was an elected official in a free and fair election of a democratic country. But apparently that doesnt mean anything to the messiahs of democracy.

BTW, my position about PO aid is that, the new government should get the aid and Washington should force Israel to release the tax revenue that belongs to the newly elected PO govt.

You either like Democracy or you dont. Cant have it both ways.

In my last comment I should have said PA, as in Palestenian Authority and not PO.

AK:

Finally, before I pull a Cheap Ass Desi and disappear for a while

Did you think I wasn't going to catch you in here talking behind my back?

Beware: I am everywhere and nowhere.

A gem of wisdom: don't pull out and disappear. Stay and fight.

RC:

Its clear that US administration doesnt care about Democracy, but cares more about hegemony. Thats why "Hamas" getting democratically elected in a free and fair election spurred by Washington under supervision from the world, doesnt mean anything to Washington.

I completely, wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. You captured my feelings perfectly.

CAD -- I thought that might provoke you into saying something! :) I said disappear for "a while" -- too much to do before the day evaporates completely.

Bottom line for me is that I think there has to be some evidence of overt, concrete action before we start holding people responsible for "support" for terrorism. If she's buying them guns, that's one thing. If they don't like what she has to say -- that doesn't seem justified.

Since you are an immigration lawyer, does the government use such a tactic to 'flush' an answer out of someone. For example, say her indecisive answers irk some security fellas, does the government use a visa denial to get an explanation, on record, to ensure if things aren't consistent with the visitor's detailed explanations, action can be initiated against them?

Also, I said I'd put those channels, including the Sci Fi on loop for people to view. Not cancel it, so the almighty powers that be (atleast on this website) will not initiate a campaign against me (atleast not on that particular subject).

This means that you don't trust the Congress/Communist Partis/Laloo etc as well. Which means you don't trust the whole legal and constitutional machinery in India. Which means you think India is a Banana republic on the lines of Sudan or Hollywood.

Well the perpetrators of the Anti-Sikh riots in Delhi were at one time sitting in the Parliament. Then we had Gujarat. The Indian record on dealing with anti-minority violence is not the best. I think India has made tremendous progress in the last decade but is nowhere close to being called a liberal democracy.
I actually dont believe that the BJP is necessarily worse than Congress when it comes to sectarian violence against the minorities. Remember, Delhi (Anti-Sikh riots) and Anti-Muslims riots in Meerut, Bhagalpur and Bombay were all under Congress governments. I have been reading up on the post partition history of Hindu-Muslim violence in India and some of the worse state sanctioned or tolerated atrocities against Muslims have been committed under Congress governments.

I am not suggesting this is a 'Hindu' problem either. Bangladesh has a terrible record of dealing with its Hindu minority population and Indonesia has a terrible record of dealing with its Christian minority population. I see it more as a general '3rd world' problem. As India continues down the path of economic growth and development, hopefully sectarian violence would become a thing of the past.

Since you are an immigration lawyer, does the government use such a tactic to 'flush' an answer out of someone.

In the post 9-11 world, this has become one of the governments favorite tool of dealing with some undesirable Muslim immigrants and in some cases citizens as well.
The government has even used immigration laws to circumvent some constitutional protections.

In the post 9-11 world, this has become one of the governments favorite tool of dealing with some undesirable Muslim immigrants and in some cases citizens as well. The government has even used immigration laws to circumvent some constitutional protections.

Let me be more specific. Do they use this (a disapproval of the visa) to get an answer, then approve the visa once they have a more clear answer on record from the response.

Hindutvavadi --

This impugns on the rights of a soverign nation.

Actually, I don't think it does. The suit would not have been by the US government but by private parties harmed by Modi. In any event, sovereignty is a constrained concept in this era, and genocide is a crime for which there is universal jurisdiction, and every country in the world has an obligation to prosecute or extradite the genocidaires.

Well, I may be a dunce, but anything filed in a US court, under the jusidiction of the US laws that affects the rights of another sovereign nation, by definition tampers on the rights of a sovereign nation.

By whose agreement is "sovereignty is a constrained concept in this era". Last time I looked up, United Nations recognizes sovereignity and most treaties by definition between sovereign nations. There is no universal jurisdiction notwithstanding what you claim. And genocide as generally accepted is not applicable in Modi's case, not withstanding all the claims made by people who want to prosecute Modi for genocide. And again India has ratified the convention of genocide with this caveat "With reference to article IX of the Convention, the Government of India declares that, for the submission of any dispute in terms of this article to the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice, the consent of all the parties to the dispute is required in each case.". You can google it. So Govt of India by itself will not agree for this case to be submitted to the ICJ which has the sole authority to try genocide, not withstanding the US laws. Nor is India a signatory to the International Criminal court or going to be one in the near future as they have numerous objections to it.

I guess you have never lived in India and/or your source of info is only NY Times, WP etc and any other Indian sources of recent vintage. Go and look at the last 40-50 years of Indian politics and governing and you will know what I am speaking of.

Well I made a comment which has a lot of truth to it and that is why I asked if you had any significant knowledge of Indian polity. The Emergency, the killings in Assam in the 80', the various riots that took place under the Congress govts were all the ones I referred to. Since independence, the Central and the state govts were mostly controlled by Congress, leftists or various shades of the so-called secular parties. If you still can't understand what I meant, sorry. And you think only you make reasoned arguments.

She supports the freaking terrorists in Sri Lanka. Bad News. Keep her out and stop your leftist whining.

im in india right now, hurding cows, theres some minister staying at my hotel, and his body guard has a a.k 47. me and my brother just caught him knockin on peoples doors askin for money. the police body guard that it.

She sounds far too mentally challenged to be a terrorist... though her painful fractured syntax could be construed to be a weapon of mass irritation.

AK:

CAD -- I thought that might provoke you into saying something! :) I said disappear for "a while" -- too much to do before the day evaporates completely

You say that I "disappeared for while", but I haven't: I've been very active on the "Brutha on Brutha" forum-- check it out!

Hmmm.. something tells me this claim of "provoking me into saying something" is actually an excuse you've come up with to cover your behind since I caught you red handed.

Don't think you can fool me.

Hindutvavadi in CA:

Well I made a comment which has a lot of truth to it and that is why I asked if you had any significant knowledge of Indian polity.

Check you out! So all of your comments have truth to them and you have a significant amount of knowledge on Indian politics; and if AK has a different opinion or position, then apparently AK doesn't have "any significant knowledge of Indian polity". A bit of hubris on your part, don't you think? ;)

In Italian, there is a saying: "Ognuno ha la sua sapienza": Transl: "Everybody has his/her own knowledge".

P.S. Your understanding of international law is a bit textbook literal, but I won't get into that. Presently, I'm not an international lawyer working for the Hague, so evidently I don't have "any significant knowledge" of international law.

Well I made a comment which has a lot of truth to it and that is why I asked if you had any significant knowledge of Indian polity. The Emergency, the killings in Assam in the 80', the various riots that took place under the Congress govts were all the ones I referred to. Since independence, the Central and the state govts were mostly controlled by Congress, leftists or various shades of the so-called secular parties. If you still can't understand what I meant, sorry. And you think only you make reasoned arguments.

I actually don't at all think that I'm the only one who makes reasoned arguments. There are plenty of folks in these pages who do. I just didn't think that you did.

In any event, I do have "significant knowledge of Indian polity" and don't excuse or condone any of the abuses that you refer to. But it doesn't logically follow from anyone's condemnation of those abuses that people who oppose Modi therefore have any "blood on their hands," much less that they have more blood on their hands than anyone else. A pox on the houses of all human rights abusers, no matter what their religion or political party. But what Modi and the Parivar have done is exceptionally well-documented, and so they should be held accountable. And contrary to your suggestion, I have spent time in Gujarat talking to people who have worked on documenting what happened and others who have been affected by the violence.

As for the issue of universal jurisdiction, you are simply mistaken about this. The issue is not whether the India has submitted to the jurisdiction of the ICJ or the ICC with respect to genocide, but whether international law permits states to exercise universal jurisdiction to prosecute certain offenses, and for a limited number of very serious offenses -- war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and torture -- I think international law is pretty clear that universal jurisdiction is available. You may regard that as an infringement upon sovereignty, but sovereignty under international law in this era doesn't protect states' right to engage in those offenses or to leave those offenses unpunished. It is not the case that the ICJ "has the sole authority to try genocide" -- to the contrary, states are encouraged to exercise universal jurisdiction and to recognize the "prosecute or extradite" principle. And a number of states have conducted proceedings based on this principle.

The Alien Tort Statute issue is distinct from the issue of universal criminal jurisdiction, since it involves a civil lawsuit rather than a criminal prosecution. But similarly, here we are talking about violations of international law so egregious that they carry no sovereign protection at all -- individuals cannot claim sovereign immmunity for these violations, and so a private, civil tort action by individuals who have been harmed by their conduct really doesn't implicate any sovereign concern. (MoorNam raises a different and highly relevant question about whether an ATS suit would be effective in any meaningful way, but that is a different issue.) You disagree that these violations took place, but that's a different issue -- one that can be resolved in the adjudication of the ATS lawsuit itself. (If, on the other hand, you mean to say that private, civil, transnational disputes don't belong in US court at all, simply because one of the parties is Indian and that therefore implicates Indian sovereignty, I don't think there's much support for that position either. Any time a commercial dispute between two corporations from different countries gets resolved in the courts of one country the sovereignty of the other country would be infringed on that logic. But those kinds of disputes go to court all the time.)

Despite your suggestion, sovereignty is a constrained concept in an era in which certain international human rights norms have been reached the point of being jus cogens norms, or at minimum, part of customary international law. As a matter of international law, sovereign states cannot simply do whatever they want to their own citizens -- that may have been true in a different era, but in this era some things do cross the line and become subjects of international concern. This is actually not a particularly controversial point. Your main beef seems to be a different one -- you don't seem to think that Modi did anything that reaches the point of crossing that line. I disagree with you -- and there is quite a bit of evidence on my side of that disagreement -- but that is a different issue.

The fundamental question that has not been addressed is why does the US need to import another rapper? ;)

So, if the message in her songs are pro-LTTE and her songs are in wide circulation inside the US, how does denying her a visa help?

AMFD: >>I was very gung ho on getting Modi's visa rejected

This means that you don't trust the Congress/Communist Partis/Laloo etc as well. Which means you don't trust the whole legal and constitutional machinery in India. Which means you think India is a Banana republic on the lines of Sudan or Hollywood.

Whooooooooooooaaaaaa...they should post a sign on that slope!

Jai:

The US is not a monarchy and, therefore, the agendas and positions of the individuals & groups at the executive levels changes with time according to the person occupying the Oval Office along with the political parties in control of the other branches of government. It's incorrect to ascribe political policies from decades past to any individuals or groups currently in power, as the latter may not necessarily agree with the former. Times change, depending whoever is "at the top".

While in theory this can be, in state practice it is not. State policies that are crucial to the state's interests rarely alter with the change of an administration, and successive administrations are hesitant to tamper with long-standing traditional policies. One may even argue that it is in the nature of the US political framework and its institutions. For example, the US' policies regarding Israel, in substance, have not changed so much, despite the fact of regime changes in the US. Furthermore, in the case of the US, Democrats and the Republicans in the US do not drastically diverge in their agendas when it comes to foreign policy. This is not to say that there are never any changes, but it is inaccurate to say that government policies simply change with whatever regime that comes in. Furthermore, this assertion is extremely disingenuous in light of the US' record as well as both foreign and domestic policies that have been sustained over decades (despite misleading promises made; ie image of Clinton with a pen and ready to sign the comically coined "Health Care Reform"]: "With this pen, I will guarantee universal healthcare for all Americans!!!!". Result? Nothing!!!!!!!)

It's incorrect to ascribe political policies from decades past to any individuals or groups currently in power

No, it's not. The current Bush admnistration contains recycled Cold War hawks dating back from the Nixon administration who have an extremely significant input in moulding and shaping policies.

I believe you already know the answer to that, vis-a-vis the current "War on Terror" etc.

Beta, you were the one who you brought up the "US' stance on global terrorism" and so I am curious as to what definition and conception of the "War on Terror" you have in mind.

(PS. I hope you don't think I'm patronizing you by calling you beta)

CAD,

Recycling of previous US administration officials aside, I still don't think it's appropriate to imply moral equivalence between terrorists deliberately targetting unarmed civilians, and democractic governments who may accidentally cause civilian deaths w.r.t "collateral damage" but are not targetting them directly, even though both situations are unacceptable from my perspective. You can do a search here on SM to find out further details on my views on "ethical warfare" strategies, as the issue has been discussed here several times previously.

I am curious as to what definition and conception of the "War on Terror" you have in mind.

The definition and conception of this matter with regards to the current US administration is already well-known and widely publicised, so there is no need for me to engage in a drawn-out debate on the subject.

(PS. I hope you don't think I'm patronizing you by calling you beta)

I'm 32 years old, so unless you are in your 40s or older, it may be worthwhile to reconsider the propriety of referring to me as "beta", especially on a serious discussion thread such as this one ;)

Ok, I have a confession: I have never heard a single one of M.I.A.'s songs. And I'm trying to follow the first half of this discussion, but it seems to depend on a knowledge of her lyrics and I don't have this. Would someone PLEASE show me lyrics where she supports the LTTE?

So, if the message in her songs are pro-LTTE and her songs are in wide circulation inside the US, how does denying her a visa help?

Because if you ignore problems, they clearly go away. Just look, there aren't any gay people in America anymore, and teenagers aren't having sex.

Would someone PLEASE show me lyrics where she supports the LTTE?

There aren't any, as has been pointed out above. Sunshowers has obtuse references to suicide bombers; mentioning suicide bombing at all makes you a terrorist loving Tamil girl, apparently. Some of her songs talk about shooting people. Shocking I know. I wonder what would happen if she rapped about going 187 on an undercover cop. (Yeah, and you don't stop.)

ramanan

Do you support the suicide bombing tactic of the Tamil Tigers? Slaughtering innocent men, women and children in Sri Lanka? Because you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about the merest criticism of the romanticisation of such fascist murderous terrorist thugs.

Such poetry in those limbs, heads, torsos ripped apart and splattered all over the place - yeah, sunshowers baby!

Joolz, I don't think I've said anything like that at all actually. But you can read anything you like into what i've said here. Even this comment! :O :O :O

I find this discussion really frustrating because it completely ignores the nuances of the whole issue.

Whether the LTTE is defined technically as a terrorist outfit really isn't the point. They do use morally reprehensible violent tactics, and they do stifle dissent within the community of people they claim to represent. But you can't simply look at the internal dynamics of the LTTE without looking at the overall context of the oppression of Sri Lankan Tamils by the Government of Sri Lanka.

So what if someone wants to support the people of Tamil Eelam and express solidarity with their struggle WITHOUT supporting the tactics of the LTTE? The LTTE certainly won't have any of that, and the rhetoric which charlie, joolz, and others use just plays into their hands. If everyone's going to stick the terrorist label on a Tamil sympathizer, he/she might as well just go over to the LTTE.

A space must be created and fostered where support for and solidarity with Sri Lankan Tamils does not equal support for the LTTE's tactics.

A space must be created and fostered where support for and solidarity with Sri Lankan Tamils does not equal support for the LTTE's tactics.

i agree, but with the intimidation tactics that the LTTE uses, it's hard to create that space.

mentioning suicide bombing at all makes you a terrorist loving Tamil girl, apparently.

i don't think anybody said that either, but you also can read whatever you want into what is written here. it's not just the lyrics, it's the beat, staccato beats imitating gunfire, others imitating explosions. also i don't think lyrics like "“freedom fighting Dad bombed this pad / called him a terror put him on wanted ads" is such an obtuse reference to the LTTE.
taken alone, maybe i could see your point. but again, together, with the context of her artwork, the stuff she has talked about in interviews, the title of her CD...her image is playing up this exotic-"freedom fighter"-rebel.

also i don't think lyrics like "“freedom fighting Dad bombed this pad / called him a terror put him on wanted ads" is such an obtuse reference to the LTTE.

Alternately, such lyrics could be considered autobiographical. If your dad was part of al qaeda and you were telling your story, would you leave that crucial bit out, lest you be accused of being a sympathizer?

MIA has been to the US plenty of times before. What makes this visit different that she got denied? Has anything changed in the past 8 months? Cuz I was thinking IF her denial was based on her lyrics, she shouldn't have been allowed in on her past trips, which leads me to think that there may be something else?

i do agree to an extent, as i wrote above, "i could kind of understand, the first time around; when she first came out, her reflecting on her own personal experience." if sri lanka or the political situation there had more attention, like say, the isreal-palestine conflict, maybe i would feel differently. but since it's not...i don't know. it just troubles me that people who have never even heard of sri lanka are being shown this one-sided (and frankly, one-dimensional) perspective. also terms like "freedom fighter" and "terrorist" are two different sides of the same coin. it's all perspective. but M.I.A. chose to use "freedom fighter," and that shows what her perspective was when she wrote that song.

honestly, i don't know what M.I.A.'s deal is. personally, i don't see her as a sympathizer. i do see her as somewhat irresponsible and uninformed.

CAD

Check you out! So all of your comments have truth to them and you have a significant amount of knowledge on Indian politics; and if AK has a different opinion or position, then apparently AK doesn't have "any significant knowledge of Indian polity". A bit of hubris on your part, don't you think? ;)

If you think it is hubris on my part, hubris it is. I stand by what I said and if you don't have a history of living in India and imbibing the political goings there, you wouldn't know. Just as I wouldn't know the history of street and labor union politics in the USA.

In Italian, there is a saying: "Ognuno ha la sua sapienza": Transl: "Everybody has his/her own knowledge".

Hey, I am a desi, right-wing Hindu guy. All I know in Italian is Peeza and Parmejan. Quote me some Kural or Kabir, I can understand.

P.S. Your understanding of international law is a bit textbook literal, but I won't get into that. Presently, I'm not an international lawyer working for the Hague, so evidently I don't have "any significant knowledge" of international law.

If you don't know freaking thing about international law, stop making freaking comments about others opinion. If you think only lawyers practicing international law in Hague should be making opinions about international law, then I guess we also should keep our mouths 'chup'. I guess free speech only applies to lawyers.

Categorizing anyone is sure not easy. Check this out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/26/magazine/26taliban.html

Unfortunately, they have a price on it, the article I mean :-(

Neale

AK,

I actually don't at all think that I'm the only one who makes reasoned arguments. There are plenty of folks in these pages who do. I just didn't think that you did.

Thanks for letting me know I am a dunce since I asked you something that was relevant to the discussion.

In any event, I do have "significant knowledge of Indian polity" and don't excuse or condone any of the abuses that you refer to. But it doesn't logically follow from anyone's condemnation of those abuses that people who oppose Modi therefore have any "blood on their hands," much less that they have more blood on their hands than anyone else. A pox on the houses of all human rights abusers, no matter what their religion or political party. But what Modi and the Parivar have done is exceptionally well-documented, and so they should be held accountable. And contrary to your suggestion, I have spent time in Gujarat talking to people who have worked on documenting what happened and others who have been affected by the violence.

You might be right about Sonia Gandhi, or I might be (though I don't purport to know every last detail without further research).

Since you don't even know this, why do you claim that you have significant knowledge of Indian politics. I have a question for you - did you grow up in India and were or close to political particpants in the 70s, 80s and 90s? Or are you on of the ABD's who got a law degree from a US university and parachuted into Gujarat and hopped out? There is a big difference.

I have family friends who were hunted during Emergency, have close knowledge of police getting killed by Muslim fundamentalists in broad daylight and then protected by the so-called psecular politicians. Modi was just a reaction and outlet for failure to prosecute and punish goons because of political patronage and the street justice was carried out because people didn't have faith that the Godhra pepetrators will be protected.

Most folks who would have grwon up in India would have known this '(Now, why you think opponents to Modi have "blood on their hands" in a "worse" way -- worse than whom? -- not sure I understand that one.)' and I made a reference to the fact in 'Well I made a comment which has a lot of truth to it and that is why I asked if you had any significant knowledge of Indian polity. The Emergency, the killings in Assam in the 80', the various riots that took place under the Congress govts were all the ones I referred to.'

Either you never lived in India for a significant time or you are being disingenous.

As for the issue of universal jurisdiction, you are simply mistaken about this. The issue is not whether the India has submitted to the jurisdiction of the ICJ or the ICC with respect to genocide, but whether international law permits states to exercise universal jurisdiction to prosecute certain offenses, and for a limited number of very serious offenses -- war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and torture -- I think international law is pretty clear that universal jurisdiction is available. You may regard that as an infringement upon sovereignty, but sovereignty under international law in this era doesn't protect states' right to engage in those offenses or to leave those offenses unpunished. It is not the case that the ICJ "has the sole authority to try genocide" -- to the contrary, states are encouraged to exercise universal jurisdiction and to recognize the "prosecute or extradite" principle. And a number of states have conducted proceedings based on this principle.

Well I don't know how to explain this to you. A sovereign nation like India can't be forced to participate where it has not agreed to. For ex, CTBT was enacted with a provision that it won't come into force until some 44 named countries sign it and basically it was done that way to force India into complying. India refused and the international community could do diddly about it. Well if you think, you can make India comply with your theories now, wait until a few years when India is one of the top 5 economies. You can force your universal jurisdiction on countries that are dependent on foreign aid or vulnerable, but countries like US, China, Russia, India will be immune. Power Baby!!! And sovereignity is protected by a strong military.

The Alien Tort Statute issue is distinct from the issue of universal criminal jurisdiction, since it involves a civil lawsuit rather than a criminal prosecution. But similarly, here we are talking about violations of international law so egregious that they carry no sovereign protection at all -- individuals cannot claim sovereign immmunity for these violations, and so a private, civil tort action by individuals who have been harmed by their conduct really doesn't implicate any sovereign concern. (MoorNam raises a different and highly relevant question about whether an ATS suit would be effective in any meaningful way, but that is a different issue.) You disagree that these violations took place, but that's a different issue -- one that can be resolved in the adjudication of the ATS lawsuit itself. (If, on the other hand, you mean to say that private, civil, transnational disputes don't belong in US court at all, simply because one of the parties is Indian and that therefore implicates Indian sovereignty, I don't think there's much support for that position either. Any time a commercial dispute between two corporations from different countries gets resolved in the courts of one country the sovereignty of the other country would be infringed on that logic. But those kinds of disputes go to court all the time.)

Again I don't know why you are comparing apples and oranges. Modi's case is not as you say 'you mean to say that private, civil, transnational disputes don't belong in US court at all' which both parties have an agreement that they have violated and the court has jurisdiction. The case against Modi is that he failed to use the state machinery to stop the riots and killings. This comes under the jurisdiction of governmental powers. If you think, the US court taking up this doesn't infringe on state sovereignity, tell me why. And Modi has not voilated any international law I know of.

Despite your suggestion, sovereignty is a constrained concept in an era in which certain international human rights norms have been reached the point of being jus cogens norms, or at minimum, part of customary international law. As a matter of international law, sovereign states cannot simply do whatever they want to their own citizens -- that may have been true in a different era, but in this era some things do cross the line and become subjects of international concern. This is actually not a particularly controversial point.

I addressed this already earlier. Simply put, Power Baby!!!

Your main beef seems to be a different one -- you don't seem to think that Modi did anything that reaches the point of crossing that line. I disagree with you -- and there is quite a bit of evidence on my side of that disagreement -- but that is a different issue.

What Modi did is irrelevant to the sovereignity issue. Modi's omission and commission has to do with Indian politics and others outside India don't need to interfere. You want to get the satisfaction of denying Modi's visa, go ahead.

please can we try to resist too many ex-ter-heemely long quotes that result in ex-ter-heemly long postings, she asked pathetically.

Also, I'm not sure how useful it is to question people's arguments or try to shut them up using the "You have no right to speak but I have cos I am authentic (i.e. Indian brought up in India)" fallacy

Its clear that US administration doesnt care about Democracy, but cares more about hegemony. Thats why "Hamas" getting democratically elected in a free and fair election spurred by Washington under supervision from the world, doesnt mean anything to Washington.

or perahps it's because:
1. Hamas' sucude bombings
2. They want to establish an Islamic republic in Palestine, which unlike the Jewish republic, will have no respect for human rights.
3. They want to destroy Israel
4. They are anti-Semites

Democracy is only a means to an end: freedom. So we should be careful to not put "democracy" up on a pedestal beyond other virtues. I agree, consististency is very diffucult in the real world as there are compteing values...but that is realpolick. I think on this one, the Bush admin got it right.

You want to get the satisfaction of denying Modi's visa, go ahead.

Do you read and try to understand posts before responding to them? One of the very first things I said in this thread was that I didn't agree with denying Modi's visa last year.... Enjoy your day, it's been nice chatting with you.

Re # 106

The US/Israeli governments have done a brilliant media job in terms of playing up the 'evil Palestinian suicide bombers' and utterly ignoring the collateral killings of hundreds of Palestinian people during Israeli attacks on Palestinian 'terrorists.' THe Israeli-Palestinian struggle has very much had an eye-for-an-eye logic especially in recent decades but we rarely hear the Palestinan side of things because of the powerful pro-Israel lobby in the US.

As for human rights -- to the Israeli government, the Israeli government has been indulging in the most blatent abuses of human rights for decades now. I am constantly amazed at how successful the Israeli lobby has been in making the words Jewish and Israeli synonymous! Of course they aren't...that would be the equivalent of making the words Hindutva and Indian synonymous.

I am no anti-semite, and it really bothers me when fair thinking Jewish people are labelled "self-hating" and there is the attempt to make Zionism=Jewish=supporter of Israel.

Very much like anyone who raised a voice against the Iraq war was shut up as 'unpatriotic,' unfortunately, anyone who raises very valid criticism of the shenagans of the Israeli government is promptly labelled 'anti semetic.'

"shenanigans" I meant :)!

Sorry for a fourth post in a line :). Its just that I grew up in India reading Anne Frank etc and with an absolute sense of the horror of the Holocaust etc. However, after I came to the US, while I still feel utter horror at the Holocaust and the persecution of the Jews by the Nazis, I cannot help but notice that, much as 9/11 often gets co-opted and used to justify all manner of unfair practices, the holocaust gets used in many ways that justify the terrible treatment of that relatively liberal and democratic Islamic people, the Palestinians.

ARG! for the love of god, please tell us who's saying the things you're blockquoting!

also: if someone says shenanigans one more time... :D

AK # 107

Do you read and try to understand posts before responding to them? One of the very first things I said in this thread was that I didn't agree with denying Modi's visa last year.... Enjoy your day, it's been nice chatting with you.

It is easy not to answer the issues I raised with your arguments by asserting "you don' make reasoned arguments" and "Do you read and try to understand posts before responding to them?" as you do. And you have selectively quoted my various statements in your various responses, so that the whole context gets lost.

And you never answered the question of living in India and now I am concluding you are an ABD. I know it is your prerogative, but in the context of the discussions, the backgrounds, experiences you have dealt with and where you come from colors points of view.

I don't expect you to respond, so have a nice day.

anyone who raised a voice against the Iraq war was shut up as 'unpatriotic,'

I would actually love to see examples of this if you have any. I'm really curious b/c it is a common charge. The only person I know who did this was ann coulter. But i could be wrong so I'm open to examples...the more promenant the person, the better.

anyone who raises very valid criticism of the shenagans of the Israeli government is promptly labelled 'anti semetic.'

I agree 100%, in fact I made the same point in another thread. But apparently you were reply to me labelling Hamas as anti-semtic, which is like calling the KKK racist. and hamas, like the KKK, did not emerge from a vacuum...but rather a highly bigoted society that oprresses virtually all minorites including women and gays. And palestinian victimhood does not explain this bigotry, as it extends deeply into other islamic societies.

We must acknowledge that this is what Israel is facing.

Hindutvavadi -- You're right, the comment about "reasoned arguments" wasn't a constructive, temperate, or particularly nice thing to say, and I do apologize for it.

I am still confused about some of the things you have been saying, and what you might have been responding to. But we can just let it drop.

As for this business about whether I grew up/lived in India or not, CAD #86 and Ms Fink Nottle #105 have spoken to this issue -- it really seems beneath this space to argue at that level. You and I both can find people who live/grew up in India AND people who live in other parts of the world who agree with me -- just as we could both find people who live/grew up in India AND people who live outside of India who agree with you. If you disagree with someone on the merits, then why not just make an argument and disagree with them on the merits?

Anyway, there probably is no purpose in discussing this further and putting everyone (including us) through the heartache. It's looking like a nice day in California, so I hope you're able to enjoy the good weather before the day ends.

Hindutvavadi in Ca:

If you don't know freaking thing about international law, stop making freaking comments about others opinion. If you think only lawyers practicing international law in Hague should be making opinions about international law, then I guess we also should keep our mouths 'chup'. I guess free speech only applies to lawyers.

All of your responses on this thread and others contain insults and are progressively getting snappier and snappier by the comment.

What makes you think I don't know anything about international law, and what makes you an expert, therefore giving you the license to gratuitously put others down?

The more you try to vociferously justify why your opinions, and only yours, are valid, the loonier you seem and the more you illustrate that you have nothing else to back up your opinions except that you grew up in India and you are miracously an expert on every topic.

Stop being such a jackass and assuming that you, and only you, are making sound and logical arguments.

Jai:

Politics aside---

I'm 32 years old, so unless you are in your 40s or older, it may be worthwhile to reconsider the propriety of referring to me as "beta", especially on a serious discussion thread such as this one ;)

Phew! That was a close one-- good thing you actually are younger than me. I am in my 90's. So if you want to even things out, please do feel free to call me "CAD Dadi".

Hindutvavadi in CA

Stop being such a jackass and assuming that you, and only you, are making sound and logical arguments.

I apologize for using the word "jackass". It was unnecessary and wrong of me to use such a word.

I'm 32 years old, so unless you are in your 40s or older, it may be worthwhile to reconsider the propriety of referring to me as "beta", especially on a serious discussion thread such as this one ;)

Phew! That was a close one-- good thing you actually are younger than me. I am in my 90's. So if you want to even things out, please do feel free to call me "CAD Dadi".

Ms. Fink Nottle:

As for human rights -- to the Israeli government, the Israeli government has been indulging in the most blatent abuses of human rights for decades now. I am constantly amazed at how successful the Israeli lobby has been in making the words Jewish and Israeli synonymous! Of course they aren't...that would be the equivalent of making the words Hindutva and Indian synonymous.

I am no anti-semite, and it really bothers me when fair thinking Jewish people are labelled "self-hating" and there is the attempt to make Zionism=Jewish=supporter of Israel

After having spent years researching and studying the question of Palestine, I used to marvel at the underlined phrase above. Not all Jews support Israel, and not all supporters of Israel are Jewish, correct?. However, just yesterday I finished reading the "The Zionist Idea", compiled by Arthur Hertzberg, and it all makes sense, this collapse between "Jewish" and "Israeli". If you ever get a chance to read it, you should because it contains all of the Zionist writers. Hertzberg does a good job of contextualizing the Zionist movement historically (but alas, he does not mention Palestinians).
Off of the top of my head, here are other books and/or authors regarding Palestine:
Rashid Khalidi: The Palestinian Identity
Edward Said: The End of the Peace Process; The Question of Palestine
Ilan Pappe: all of his books. He is an Israeli professor at Hebrew Univ (I think)
Uri Averny: Israeli journalist
Amira Haas: Israeli journalist
Robert Fisk: Pity the Nation, Lebanon at War
Noam Chomsky: The Fateful Triangle: the US, Israel, and Palestine (Fisk and Chomsky's books dwelve into the details of the Lebanese civil war, which I think had a fundamental impact on Palestinian politics)
Norman Finkelstein: The politics of Anti-semiticism

There are many, many other books which don't come to mind at the moment. Also, in all of these books, check out the bibliography and you will find more writers. You probably know of these books already.

Manju:

or perahps it's because:
1. Hamas' sucude bombings
2. They want to establish an Islamic republic in Palestine, which unlike the Jewish republic, will have no respect for human rights.
3. They want to destroy Israel
4. They are anti-Semites

This list is so bigoted and uninformed that it is remarkable.

But apparently you were reply to me labelling Hamas as anti-semtic, which is like calling the KKK racist.and hamas, like the KKK, did not emerge from a vacuum...but rather a highly bigoted society that oprresses virtually all minorites including women and gays. And palestinian victimhood does not explain this bigotry, as it extends deeply into other islamic societies.

Really, the logic in these two sentences and the analogy between Hamas and the KKK is so deeply flawed that I am starting to wonder whether you write these comments just to get a kick out of how others may respond to you. Do you seriously believe the things that you have written on SM? Or are you playing games?

Manju,
I'm not going to get into whether I think Hamas is anti-semetic or not. The problem with labelling people/groups with labels like 'semetic' or 'anti-semetic' esp. when those labels are so loaded is not really helpful, I think, and is often used to obscure issues. It is so easy to label a group 'evil' but that rarely helps to solve any problems...what might help solve problems is examining why that group is acting so 'evil.' I agree that the suicide bombing of groups like Hamas is INEXCUSABLE but in a sense understandable -- when your people have been left with no options at all and you see no future for your children, when all the power is in the hands of a certain group that is bent upon reducing you to a second-class status and creating a really apartheid sort of society, well, some people begin to feel that the only kind of 'power' they can exert is unfortunately things like suicide bombing (and you're right about the fundamentalist Islamist element that helps make such things worse).

Again, NOT to excuse suicide bombing...but the killing/maiming of so many Palestinians that happens during each and every Israeli air raid is no better just because it is carried out by 'police' and uses the hunting-down-terrorists mantra -- especially since it is the Israeli police that has just about all the military technology. I guess ultimately I'm saying that while many things that Hamas does might be inexcusable, the things that the Israeli government has been doing are even more so.

Also, while Hamas mainly gets beaten on for its suicide bombing activities, one needs to remember that the main reason they came to power was because they are also a very important social-work organization for the Palestinian people, offering health, schooling etc services that are desperately needed. I think it is a real pity the US and European governments are marginalizing the elected Hamas govt at this point...the one hope for peace in that region would be to acknowledge and work with them for a better life for both Palestinian and Israelis.

CAD,

Thanks for that great list of books: I am familiar with some of the books but not all. I am forgetting the name of a two-author book that recently came out (about the US-Israel nexus) that it seems that many academics are apparently afraid to support 'cos of political pressure from deans etc...there was a piece in the LA times about in the last few days.

Yes, of course not all Jews are Israel supporters etc. However, I think the reason I got interested in this issue and researched it in the first place was because in the past few years I seem to be moving in a lot of Jewish circles -- wonderful, educated, fair-thinking people in so many ways...BUT when it comes to Israel there seems to be some sort of wilful refusal to see what is going on and some sort of almost cult-like brainwashing (kids being sent to pro-Israel camps constantly, being taught Hebrew -- their parents or grand parents don't speak it -- and generally being brought up to totally identify with Israel). It is quite scary. The only way I can explain all this is some sort of brillian Israeli media strategy -- as Said and others have pointed out.

The problem with labelling people/groups with labels like 'semetic' or 'anti-semetic' esp. when those labels are so loaded is not really helpful

I disagree, but lets go w/ your point. should we extend this courtesy out to the KKK, or Nazis? I mean, they also represented poor, disenfranchised people. Its going to be very hard to be consistent w/ this one as we risk selectively calling certain "hate groups" bigots, but others we let slide b/c we sympathize w/ their position. but if you can maintain consistency I'm impressed. Even CAD (#121) is having a hard time as she maintains my position is bigoted. We've been having an ongoing debate about this and it gets quite circular: "Its wrong to label, but if you do label then I'm labelling you" At this rate we're all about to have a Pogo moment: "we have met the enemy and it is us"

Please also notice that these anti-semetic groups, excuse the label, exist outside of the context of Isreal. One only has to look at how the Islamic world, icluding the palestinians, treat thier own to be concerned that "Palestine" will be just another repressive islamic republic. There is obviously something deeper going on here than just a response to Israeli airraids. Which is why I'm making analogies to other totalitarian mindsets, outside the Islamic context.

Ms Fink:

in the past few years I seem to be moving in a lot of Jewish circles -- wonderful, educated, fair-thinking people in so many ways...BUT when it comes to Israel there seems to be some sort of wilful refusal to see what is going on and some sort of almost cult-like brainwashing

Yes, there are people of Jewish background who refuse to see what is going on. However, I have met and known a lot of non-Jewish "liberals" who also stop short of criticizing Israel and refuse to see what is going on; in some ways, it has become "right wing" to criticize Israel and "liberal" to support it.

Thanks for that great list of books: I am familiar with some of the books but not all. I am forgetting the name of a two-author book that recently came out (about the US-Israel nexus) that it seems that many academics are apparently afraid to support 'cos of political pressure from deans etc...there was a piece in the LA times about in the last few days.

CAD: Yes, I think that was the one: thanks.

Hindutvavadi in CA:

I stand by what I said and if you don't have a history of living in India and imbibing the political goings there, you wouldn't know. Just as I wouldn't know the history of street and labor union politics in the USA.

And you never answered the question of living in India and now I am concluding you are an ABD. I know it is your prerogative, but in the context of the discussions, the backgrounds, experiences you have dealt with and where you come from colors points of view.

How the hell are you concluding someone's birth and childhood based on their comments? And excuse me, but how does an ABD think and what kind of opinions does he/she have? (I do thank you for dropping the "C" part of it, though).
What a flimsy conclusion, based on flimsy pretenses. If your only back up to support your views is that you "have a history of living in India and imbibing the political goings there", then I am sorry, but that is a faulty foundation to rest your justifications on as to why 1) you know more than others and 2)other's opinions, knowledge, and experiences are invalid. This is a convenient way to discount what others are saying.

Since you don't even know this, why do you claim that you have significant knowledge of Indian politics. I have a question for you - did you grow up in India and were or close to political particpants in the 70s, 80s and 90s? Or are you on of the ABD's who got a law degree from a US university and parachuted into Gujarat and hopped out? There is a big difference.

Again, how are you going about concluding that AK-- or anybody else who doesn't hold your opinion, for that matter-- might be an ABD who got a law degree from a US university? Furthermore, you are insulting somebody based on your own presuppositions and assumptions about who they are, and you don't know whether your assumptions are accurate and true.

Since you like to "break some things down for me" (as you have in your posts in the other forum, "Brutha on Brutha"), let me break things down for you, real nice and slow:

1. In the US, I have met Indians from India who share my views.
2. In the US, I have met Indians from India who do not share my views.
3. In the US, I have met Indians from India who share the same politics and opinions as their US counterparts.
4. In the US, I have met Indians from India who do not share the same politics and opinions as their US counterparts.
5. In India, I have met Indians who share my views.
6. In India, I have met Indians who do not share my views.
7. In India, I have met Indians who share the same politics and opinions as their counterparts in the US
8. In India, I have met Indians who do not share the same politics and opinions as their counterparts in the US.

Moral of the whole list? You can't easily categorize and box people and their politics and assume too much about them. People are too messy and unruly for that.

desi di asino poco costoso (blame Google if you don't like the translation) --

In Italian, there is a saying: "Ognuno ha la sua sapienza": Transl: "Everybody has his/her own knowledge".

Very impressive command of Italian. And very impressive breaking down of things. Might even bookmark the comment link, to incorporate by reference in the future. ;)

Actually, Manju, I agree that labels can sometimes be useful. Its just that the label 'anti-semetic' gets thrown around so easily these days that I did not think it useful to call Hamas that for purposes of this discussion because to do so would be to imply that they do what they do ONLY because they hate Jews.

Also, yes, Islamic societies are often more repressive etc but what I was saying was that WITHIN Islamic societies Palestinian society is much more democratic. Also, whether or not Palestine is the most repressive society there is does not justify Israeli actions.

And, furthermore, Manju, there are so many differences between the KKK/Nazis and Hamas that I am not going to even begin to elaborate on that....it would be at the same level as arguing that the Israeli govt is like the KKK/Nazis :). In all cases, there might be some things in common but to make these parallels is to evoke an emotional response that obscures real issues and *important* differences.

HIndutvavadi:

Last comment, I swear. (See how your comments get me so worked up?!)

Fist:

So maybe you should step out of your box and look beyond-- people of all backgrounds, experiences, and childhoods can amass information relevent to all topics.

My comment above, I realized, can be misinterpreted to imply that you should step out of our box to inform yourself of issues in the US. This is not what I meant; rather, what I mean is "So maybe you should step out of your box -- ie, only Indians born and raised in India can authoritatively speak about Indian issues, and only Americans born and raised in the US can authoritatively speak about American issues-- and look beyond, for people of all backgrounds, experiences, and childhoods can amass information relevent to all topics".

Second:

I stand by what I said and if you don't have a history of living in India and imbibing the political goings there, you wouldn't know. Just as I wouldn't know the history of street and labor union politics in the USA.

Okay, fair enough. But by the same logic, if I EVER catch a comment of yours hereonafter about US politics or any US issues (I won't go to the Brutha on Brutha forum and cut and paste your assertions about US politics and foreign policies since it is irrelevent here), I will be entitled to say to you, modelled on your comments:

Either you never lived in India for a significant time or you are being disingenous.

My future reply:
Hindutvavadi, either you have never lived in the US for a significant time or you are being disingenuous; because judging from your comments,

...I am concluding you are an ABD. I know it is your prerogative, but in the context of the discussions, the backgrounds, experiences you have dealt with and where you come from colors points of view.

My future reply: I am concluding that you are an Indian immigrant from India. I know it is your prerogative, but in the context of the discussions, the backgrounds, experiences you have dealt with and where you come from colors points of view.

If you reply back to me, Hindutvavadi, then I will reply in the same manner that you have responded to AK:

Since you don't even know this, why do you claim that you have significant knowledge of Indian politics. I have a question for you - did you grow up in India and were or close to political particpants in the 70s, 80s and 90s? Or are you on of the ABD's who got a law degree from a US university and parachuted into Gujarat and hopped out? There is a big difference.

My future reply:

Since you don't even know this, why do you claim that you have a significant knowledge of US politics. I have a question for you-- did you grow up in America and were or close to political participants in the 70's, 80's, and 90's? Or are you another one of those Indian software engineers who got an engineering degree from a US university as a foreign student and parachuted into California?...There is a big difference.

In a nutshell, I will follow your logic:

If we are speaking of US politics and US issues,
And if I have been born and raised in the US,
Then my opinions, regardless of whether they converge or diverge from yours, are valid.
Your opinions, in contrast, will not be because you were not born and raised here.
Therefore, you have no authority to speak on US issues.

I will be vigilantly and aggressively monitoring your comments from now on.

And SM Mutineers, I encourage you to do the same!

Last comment, and then I'll go.

Manju:

Even CAD (#121) is having a hard time as she maintains my position is bigoted.

Hmmm... you do raise a good question. Now that I think about it, maybe "bigoted" is not the right word. Perhaps "simpleminded"? Yes. That's it. "Simpleminded". So, regarding your assertion:

or perahps it's because: 1. Hamas' sucude bombings 2. They want to establish an Islamic republic in Palestine, which unlike the Jewish republic, will have no respect for human rights. 3. They want to destroy Israel 4. They are anti-Semites

My revised response is:

This list is so bigoted simpleminded and uninformed that it is remarkable.

Rock on, Cheap Ass Desi.

Last, last, ultimately last comment unless a meteorite is about to hit my room and in hopes of leaving a significant trace of my personhood for future generations, I feel the urge to write one last comment:

AK:

desi di asino poco costoso (blame Google if you don't like the translation) --

A much smoother and accurate translation in Italian: "Non fare l'indiano". Transl: Don't be a cheap ass like Indians are. (I am not making this up, Italians really do say this. Apparently, Indians are the embodiment of cheapness. I have had this accusation flung at me, and at anyone else who's a Cheap Ass, one too many times.)

And very impressive breaking down of things. Might even bookmark the comment link, to incorporate by reference in the future. ;)

Glad to know that my list might come in handy one day. However, if you do decide to refer to my list, I hope you will never forget to cite that it was me, not you, who had made this list. And just to ensure that you have taken the appropriate measures regarding my list-- ie you have faithfully cited me instead of parading the list under your name-- I am going to now periodically do a google search on "AK, Hindutvavadi in California". If I find out that you have been bandying this list around with your name stamped all over it, I am going to sue you for intellectual property rights infringement.

Have a lovely evening, wherever you are (probably in the US, because judging from your comments, I'm assuming you are an ABD)

Oy, Cheap Ass Desi, I giggled much at the typo "fist" that begins your responses to our Hindutvavadi friend.

Freudian slips an' all.

CAD:

Hmmm... you do raise a good question.

Your concession destroys my thoery that you are actually Ann Coulter, I mean your writng styles were exactly the same and you both clearly dig indian guys...a lot.

I guess that leaves us with Kaavya Viswanathan.

#136
Oh dear, more personal insinuations by way of demolishing arguments :(. Kya yaar.

Manju:

Your concession destroys my thoery that you are actually Ann Coulter, I mean your writng styles were exactly the same and you both clearly dig indian guys...a lot.
I guess that leaves us with Kaavya Viswanathan.

Your snarky comments don't faze me, I remain as calm as Bambi grazing peacefully in the Black Forest.

How do you know that I "clearly dig Indian guys.... a lot?" For all you know, maybe I have a thing for burly Arab men(preferably not Muslim terrorists, since in your book, Muslims come from an Islamic society=bigoted, oppressive and anti-semitic= terrorists....
Hmmm... looking at your logic above, I now realize that sometimes, following such simplistic and thoughtless logic makes things so much easier. Ignorance is bliss, say the wise old men. No wonder you do it so often!).

Manju,

Please read the definition of reductio ad absurdum. I usually throw cool words around like that when I see a lovely bird, but it had to be done.

To AK

Hindutvavadi -- You're right, the comment about "reasoned arguments" wasn't a constructive, temperate, or particularly nice thing to say, and I do apologize for it.

Apologies accepted and I understand that it was not said in the manner it was written.

I am still confused about some of the things you have been saying, and what you might have been responding to. But we can just let it drop.

As for this business about whether I grew up/lived in India or not, CAD #86 and Ms Fink Nottle #105 have spoken to this issue -- it really seems beneath this space to argue at that level. You and I both can find people who live/grew up in India AND people who live in other parts of the world who agree with me -- just as we could both find people who live/grew up in India AND people who live outside of India who agree with you. If you disagree with someone on the merits, then why not just make an argument and disagree with them on the merits?

Let me explain the context on why I raised the issue of whether you grew up in India. The whole context started from this

Well, she may have not participated directly as it was her husband who was involved and she was not part of the power structure then. But she was definitely part of the coverup and the whitewash that is going on now. And a few more years from now all the evidence and witnesses (whatever exists after so many years) will be be gone and you (not you as AK but in a generic jolwallahs) will be asking to show evidence that the things that happened in 1984 really happened. That is why I said be consistent. The blood on the hands of the opposition to Modi is worse. I am not making excuses or saying two wrongs make it right. Actually two wrongs are two wrongs and should be dealt with the same gusto.

And you came back with this:

(Now, why you think opponents to Modi have "blood on their hands" in a "worse" way -- worse than whom? -- not sure I understand that one.)

Now if you were had grown up in the 70s and 80s and were even mildly politically aware, you would have known the context of the remarks. And in another comment that followed this, I had given some examples.

People will not be upset if you prosecute the sins of people who are opposite to Modi's persuasion in the same manner as Modi. This is the point I raised. You can't be pursuing selective justice, and expect people on the receiving end to come out strong. And Congress will never seriously prosecute Modi, because lot of senior congress leaders in Gujarat also were involved in the mob activities. So was Modi responsible for their sins too.

And as I mentioned in another comment - "in the context of the discussions, the backgrounds, experiences you have dealt with and where you come from colors points of view." I have seen the other side of the coin and it doesn't look good. Western newspapers don't cover the dirty side of the Indian politics (except in a few cases like Modi with colored coverage) and even mainline english newspapers don't cover these in the front pages. You have to go thru' back pages and be a continuous reader to gain the true picture or you have to be involved in a political party in India. For ex, you would never know from reading a western source, that they buried the son of a MLA in India as a muslim, because they didn't want to show Hindus were killed in the riots a couple of months ago in UP.

Anyway, it will take too long to explain the whole indian political scenario.

Anyway, there probably is no purpose in discussing this further and putting everyone (including us) through the heartache. It's looking like a nice day in California, so I hope you're able to enjoy the good weather before the day ends.

It was a little bit hot in the Bay area this noon, but ended up being a nice day. Thanks and I enjoyed it.

Hindutvavadi --

People will not be upset if you prosecute the sins of people who are opposite to Modi's persuasion in the same manner as Modi. This is the point I raised. You can't be pursuing selective justice....

Western newspapers don't cover the dirty side of the Indian politics (except in a few cases like Modi with colored coverage) and even mainline english newspapers don't cover these in the front pages.

I do still fear that you are making assumptions that you really have no basis to make here -- about me, but also about many others who might want to hold Modi accountable but don't share the views you are attributing to them. There are plenty of people who oppose Modi and who are equally outraged with what the Congress leadership did, say, in 1984 and during the Emergency. I don't think that I said anything to suggest that I believe in "selective justice." To the contrary, I said explicitly that human rights violators of any religion or political party should be held accountable, and that I agreed with you that many of the abuses of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s that you discussed were precisely that.

GujuDude --

Let me be more specific. Do they use this (a disapproval of the visa) to get an answer, then approve the visa once they have a more clear answer on record from the response.

Sorry, let this one slip through without seeing it. I'm not 100 percent sure since I've never represented anyone seeking initial entry from abroad. I do know that consular officials have tremendous discretion in how and why they make their decisions, and that there aren't opportunities to appeal their decisions (in the sense of getting independent administrative or judicial review).

Good night, all.

CAD on # 127 and # 131

I guess you are an expert in taking things way out of context. There was a specific reason (which I have explained in a previous comment to AK) for raising the issue of whether AK was born in India. The question wouldn't have been asked the person had knowledge modern political history of India.

people of all backgrounds, experiences, and childhoods can amass information relevent to all topics

Now I know where to get half assed information from a Cheap desi if I need to know about how various dimensions affect string theory and how postulates of various scientists regarding the multiple dimensions impact the future of string theory research.

There is a saying in Tamil which goes 'Katrathu Kai alavu , kallathathu ulagalavu'. I believe in this.

And I guess you have a gang in this board who we call the 'jalra' gang.

Enough about you.

Sigh. Listen to you people -- it looks like your true nature will always assert itself. Your brutality, your depravity, your barbarism. All of this has happened before. And all of it will happen again. Mankind's true nature will always assert itself.

Ok, I have a confession: I have never heard a single one of M.I.A.'s songs. And I'm trying to follow the first half of this discussion, but it seems to depend on a knowledge of her lyrics and I don't have this. Would someone PLEASE show me lyrics where she supports the LTTE?

Madurai Vivekan, there's a really good post up on chapati mystery from last year which takes a look at M.I.A.'s sympathies for LTTE and related issues without slipping into the "OMG JALI THE TERRORSZTS!" argument. It should answer some of your questions and provoke more :)

AK

about me, but also about many others who might want to hold Modi accountable but don't share the views you are attributing to them.

Attributing views and calling into question the lack of knowledge of issues are two different things. I was only implying the latter within the context of Indian political history. I never attributed motives or views to you or to most reasoned participants in this discussion.

There are plenty of people who oppose Modi and who are equally outraged with what the Congress leadership did, say, in 1984 and during the Emergency. I don't think that I said anything to suggest that I believe in "selective justice." To the contrary, I said explicitly that human rights violators of any religion or political party should be held accountable, and that I agreed with you that many of the abuses of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s that you discussed were precisely that.

Regarding the last sentence, as it is said in America 'Where is the Beef?'. That is the issue I raised.

I guess you are an expert in taking things way out of context. There was a specific reason (which I have explained in a previous comment to AK) for raising the issue of whether AK was born in India. The question wouldn't have been asked the person had knowledge modern political history of India.

Actually, H., I think she's right on the money about this one. These are precisely the kinds of assertions on your part that are not particularly helpful in any productive discussion of these issues. Rather than ridiculing someone as "not having knowledge" if you disagree with them, along with dismissive (and questionable) assertions about where they did or didn't grow up, I think it's better if just lay out what you think the facts are, what supports your perspective, and then listen to what others might have to say in response. Otherwise, the level of discourse in this board will sink to the point where it proves Number Six correct.

AK,

Let me break what you said separately

These are precisely the kinds of assertions on your part that are not particularly helpful in any productive discussion of these issues.

I am not asserting anything. If the person doesn't have knowledge of the modern political history of India, what do you bring to the table on the discussion of politics in India.

Rather than ridiculing someone as "not having knowledge" if you disagree with them, along with dismissive (and questionable) assertions about where they did or didn't grow up,

Can you point out where I ridiculed you. I would know where the accusation comes from? Questioning lack of knowledge is different from ridiculing. The reason where the person grew up was brought up in a specific context to the comment you made. If you go again and again in a circle I can't help it as I already commented on this with an explanation.

I think it's better if just lay out what you think the facts are, what supports your perspective, and then listen to what others might have to say in response.

I have laid out facts, but obviously people are not interested in addressing the facts but in just dancing around it and changing the topic. Let us take comment # 104. I gave a lot of facts and examples. But you never addressed any of them expect the last sentence which I threw in as an aside in your comment # 107. I could have used the same reply to you which you made on # 107.

Hindutvavadi in Cali

There is a saying in Tamil which goes 'Katrathu Kai alavu , kallathathu ulagalavu'. I believe in this.

There is a saying in Italian which goes "La mamma degli imbecili e sempre in cinta". I believe in this.

Now, let's call it a night. You go have yourself some Mango Lassi and relax, while I pour myself a glass of red wine (no champagne-- I'm no champagne socialist!!) and have my last cigarette of the day.

A sovereign nation like India can't be forced to participate where it has not agreed to.

The man is unrelenting!

Let me break it down for you,

(1) Modi is a private citizen now and not a sovereign. The FOREIGN SOVEREIGN IMMUNITIES ACT does not apply to Modi.

(2) Modi is not being subject to criminal liablities. ATS only covers tort (civil liabilities)

(3) Modi does not have to come to the US. The ATS only gives jurisdiction when the tort-feasor is actually served process in the US. When he comes to the US on an unofficial visit of a private citizen, he has taken the risk of being hauled to Court for a civil action.

(4) Committing pogroms, which is a crime against humanity is a bad thing. When something is such a bad thing, it becomes Customary International Law and all courts have jurisdiction to hear cases based on Customary International Law.

(5) Ariel Sharon from Israel was indicted on a Court in Belgium and Kissinger does not go to Europe for the same reason. Committing crimes against humanity is a bad thing.

Hey SM Intern, time for a snap poll -- are people taking the bait and "feeding the trolls" here?

I have family friends who were hunted during Emergency, have close knowledge of police getting killed by Muslim fundamentalists in broad daylight and then protected by the so-called psecular politicians. Modi was just a reaction and outlet for failure to prosecute and punish goons because of political patronage and the street justice was carried out because people didn't have faith that the Godhra pepetrators will be protected.

I am not sure what Indian Muslims had to do with emergency. As for your close knowledge of Muslim fundamentalists killing Hindus and then being given protection, that is a symptom of the corruption that permeates all levels of the Indian society. However to extrapolate from that and infer that Gujarat was a reaction to avenge the deaths of Hindus by unpunished Muslims is silly at best.

Meerut, Bhagalpur, Surat, Bombay and Gujarat (all Anti-Muslim) and Delhi (Anti-Sikh) were the big sectarian riots in India and there is a lot of evidence which would suggest that the state machinery in all these riots was either actively participating in rioting against Muslims or were passive cheerleaders as the mobs rampaged through Muslim/Sikh areas.

Harsh Mander a former civil servant in India, is going to come over to the US in May. Hes going to be in CA for a few weeks and I encourage you to go to his workshop. Hes going to hold workshops on how to legally deal with state sanctioned violence in India. He actually resigned from his position during the Gujarat riots and is now coming to the US to raise money to take the perpetrators of Gujarat violence to court.

The people who are getting him to the US, have also worked on trying to get justice for the victims of riots in Surat, Meerut and Bhagalpur. To give you an example, in Hashimpura and Maliana (suburbs of Meerut) in UP in 1987, the police, here the Provisional Armed Constables (PAC) hauled up 140 Muslims kids aged 14-16, took them to a lake near Bulandshahar (a small town in UP) and shot them dead one by one, throwing their bodies in the lake. 3 of those kids surivived to testify and the case was in Court for a decade till the BJP government in UP stopped pursuing it.

For those interested,

http://www.imrc.ws/images/stories/Press_Release_2006_Harsh_Mander.pdf

Hail Mogambo!

I have noticed many traitors here on this thread claiming that Hindus are capable of carrying out mass murders!

These anti-national so called secularists need to be taught the wonderful fragrance of 84 squillion years of Vedic system of tolerance that means Hindus are never capable of carrying out violence!

The so called victims of Gujarat riots actually set fire to themselves.

Down with Harsh Mander the self hating Hindu!

(He must be being paid by Abrahamics for betraying the Mother India, why can't he weep over the 6 trillion Hindus killed by Muslims and Christians 1000 years ago?)

Hail Mogambo!

Committing crimes against humanity is a bad thing.

Abrahamic, do not taunt me!

It was not a crime against humanity. It was an accident provoked by aliens from outer space using X-rays to mind control Hindus.

In fact I have an investigation file from the RSS New Jersey Shakha (nobbly knees division Jackson Heights) which shows evidence that Abrahamics from Pakistan dressed up as Hindus and murdered Hindus in rioting to defame Vedic civilisation.

In case you were not aware, the victims were Hindus too, they just did not know it, because all Abrahamics in India are Hindus who were converted at the point of a sword, they just don't realise this, and must soon come back to the all tolerant Vedic fold or else we might get intolerant (which will be their fold for not obeying us)

Therefore who killed the Hindus who were under the mistaken belief that they were Abrahamics?

Only one possibility: Pakistan ISI in league with Arundhati Roy.

Please help me find a way to persuade Harsh Mander before the American media finds out and starts claiming that we fragrant Vedics do not have the most tolerant civilisation in the history of civilisation!

Hail Mogambo!

Hail Mogambo!

I must make a spelling correction:

(which will be their fold for not obeying us)

I meant to say:

(which will be their FAULT for not obeying us)

Which of course it will be their fault for not obeying us and provoking us.

This malfeasance in my spelling must be attributed to Abrahamic influence. It worries me and makes me concerned over my children's prospect in the California Spelling Bee.

Abrahamics beware! Don't try and stop my children from winning! We are respectable members of America most model Vedic minority unlike those other Abrahamics of terrorist origin.

Hail Mogambo!

rejecting Modi's visa (asked for by the Indian government) on the grounds of egregious violator of religious freedom, while inviting Saudi king (crown prince) to the Whitehouse/Texas farm house smacks of double standards. Religious freedom is non-existant in Saudi. If a Muslim holds a bible in Saudi he could be beheaded, (last time there was a public beheading for this crime was in 1994, I think).. Even George Bush can't take his bible to a public park there..

Of course, Saudi has lots of oil and US depends on it.. And rejecting Modi's visa could have scored some brownie(or whitie) points in the larger Muslim world for now..

Important point to note is that US changes its policies with the change in govt. in India. Last time Vajpayee addressed the US congress, a hindu priest was asked to bless.. I don't think it happened this time with Manmohan Singh.. In future, if Modi becomes the Prime Minister or the Home minister, I don't think US will reject his visa that time..

In future, if Modi becomes the Prime Minister or the Home minister, I don't think US will reject his visa that time

Please, don't tease me! Just the thought of this great man becoming the leader of our nation gives me shivers of excitement!

We'll really show how civilized and tolerant our civilization is with him at the helm.

Hail Mogambo!

Spoorlam,

Your infantile ranting is beyond ridiculous. If you think that is how the so-called Hindu right thinks, then I pity you. If you think you are trying to humor by spoofing, pleae take some pointers from 'www.theonion.com'. It will do you some good.

On the other hand, if your idea is to drive away people with an alternate to a left/pseudo-secularist viewpoint from posting their opinions, then we will go away. After all we are guests here and if the owners of the blog want to keep it pristine left, then off we go.

In ancient Vedic systems, sense of humor was pristine.

Pomposity and conceited self regard was unknown.

We must recapture this glory.

Rape by Abrahamics of our sense of humor has continued for too long.

I have spent too long practising with my children for triumph in the California Spelling Bee.

The victory shall be a triumph for Hindus and send shockwaves through the world - especially it will make Pakistan shit her pants.

When my children win, it will be as though the invaders have been repelled and we will be reaffirmed as the uber-fragrant model minority without a blemish on our tolerance.

Now I must loosen my underpants for light relief.

Pomposity is unknown amongst Hindus.

Any suggestion is caused by Arundhati Roy and Abrahamic conspiracy.

We must control the history textbooks of California too - Spelling Bee is a strategy for this. Pretend we are checking the spelling as super-Hindus then change their lies and tell the truth of how we invented peace and tolerance and even poo-poo in ancient Vedic times did not smell.

There is much to do so we can regain our glory. The master will advise by telephone.

Hail Mogambo!

On the other hand, if your idea is to drive away people with an alternate to a left/pseudo-secularist viewpoint from posting their opinions, then we will go away.

Oh please! no need to be uber-sensitive, inspite of "satire" by the likes of SpoorLam. and really, all the "hindu right" here aren't in your control, "we" wont just "go away".
(ok, i went overboard with the quotes there...)

Oh please! no need to be uber-sensitive, inspite of "satire" by the likes of SpoorLam. and really, all the "hindu right" here aren't in your control, "we" wont just "go away".

Please do not fight brothers. There is a long road ahead of us. We have massive challenges to face. We have a meeting with the Bakersfield kindergarten schools council. We have to let them know we are concerned at the depiction of Vedic system in history books read by 4-6 year olds in their jurisdiction. It is about time this rape against Hindus was revenged.

In the meantime do not let Abrahamics to divide us with arguments.

We must keep Hindu Unity.

We have big evil to destroy.

Wendy Doniger and Anjana Chaterjee are still out there, oppressing us.

Be strong!

Hail Mogambo!

Spoorlam - *Barf*

Only if it's funny it's all good.

Only if it's funny it's all good.

The future leader of the free world thinks it is funny.

But I refuse laughter until my children have shitted on Pakistan by winning Spelling Bee. My boy failed on these words:

Pompous

Conceited

Flatulent

Joyless

I said, don't worry, these are Abrahamic words that cannot be used to describe true Vedic people or any of your Uncles so it is no wonder you cannot spell them.

We must destroy the conspiracy of the California School Board against us!

Hail Mogambo!

Spoorlam, the essence of humor is knowing when to stop...and that point was several posts ago.

Spoorlam, the essence of humor is knowing when to stop...and that point was several posts ago

I am confused. In my encyclopedia it states many different essences of humor but not one of them refers to it being 'knowing when to stop'.

Are you trying to confuse me?

Is this a conspiracy?

Are you half-christian?

Do you work for the California Schools Board?

Hail Mogambo!

The Spoorlam Prototype is 1/4 Evangelical missionary, 1/4 British imperialist, 1/4 Mujahideen, and 1/4 Wendy Doniger.

It was invented in a lab and replicates by cell division, which is incited by any reference to Hindutva. It feeds on dead babies thrown into the Ganges by monstrous Hindoo mothers; it licks up the ashes of all the Hindoo women consumed in the flames of Suttee; it is programmed to spit out invective, including random Kipling poems like "Gunga Din," tirades against the caste system, and below-the-belts about our second mother the cow whenever Relgious Uncle says something slightly far fetched about Indian Civilization. In short, its the Hindoo Terminator. Look upon its prowess ye Mighty, and despair!

Where the hell is the SM Intern when he/she is needed the most?

The Spoorlam Prototype is 1/4 Evangelical missionary, 1/4 British imperialist, 1/4 Mujahideen, and 1/4 Wendy Doniger

Are you Muslim?

You will be frightened when you see my thighs as I wear my khaki shorts so do not mock me.

We invented fire sixty eight thousand years ago.

Death to Anjana Chaterjee.

Hail Mogambo!

Ms Fink Nottle

your people have been left with no options at all and you see no future for your children, when all the power is in the hands of a certain group that is bent upon reducing you to a second-class status and creating a really apartheid sort of society

there are so many differences between the KKK/Nazis and Hamas that I am not going to even begin to elaborate on that...to make these parallels is to evoke an emotional response that obscures real issues and *important* differences.

How do u reconcile these two statements? Are there not so many differences between Israel and Aparthied that one cannot even begin to elaborate. Does not making this parallel evoke an emotional response that obsures real issues and important differences.

BTW, my real position is that your analogy does bring up a real issue... as does mine. But you see how difficult it is to be consistent? "anti-semitism" is not the only term thrown around too much.

A M for D

1) Modi is a private citizen now and not a sovereign. The FOREIGN SOVEREIGN IMMUNITIES ACT does not apply to Modi.

(2) Modi is not being subject to criminal liablities. ATS only covers tort (civil liabilities)

Again going in circles - Modi has never been a private citizen since before Godhra and his acts that people are accusing him are of acts of omission. There is no proof that he ordered the mobs. If you can show that this falls under the acts of a private citizen under the act you quote, I will apologize for wasting the time of the people here.

I well know it is civil liabilities, but what are you going to attach? Modi obviously doesn't have any property or assets in the US. The Indian govt will not attach assets as it opens Indian citizens to foreign jurisdiction.

(5) Ariel Sharon from Israel was indicted on a Court in Belgium and Kissinger does not go to Europe for the same reason. Committing crimes against humanity is a bad thing.

Kissinger is currently a private citizen. But there are two things - 1) he doesn't have the need to go to Europe as at his age he is not interested in being a tourist and can't be because of his notoriety and most of the business for Kissinger & Associates comes from the US, China, India and middle east/latin states. He has been regularly visiting these places. 2) The US has warned Europe about prosecuting Kissinger for his acts as Sec. of State.

Meerut, Bhagalpur, Surat, Bombay and Gujarat and Delhi were the big sectarian riots in India

The examples you quote actually strenghten what I am saying. All these happened under the Congress or the left/secular parties.

And for the true story of Harsh Mander's resignation here is the link with all the gory details:

http://www.vigilonline.com/news/whats_new/news_view.asp?plainSpeakId=35

This is my last post on this subject. I will retire for the evening to have my 18yr Macallan single malt. Red wine is so passe' and feminine.

I forgot to add the obligatory Spoorlam stuff.

Here it is:

I said, don't worry, these are Abrahamic words that cannot be used to describe true Vedic people or any of your Uncles so it is no wonder you cannot spell them.

We must destroy the conspiracy of the California School Board against us!

Hail Mogambo!

HIndutvavadi in Ca:

Hey, I am a desi, right-wing Hindu guy.

I will retire for the evening to have my 18yr Macallan single malt

Sure, drinking an 18yr Macallan single malt is very Hindu.

SpoorLam:

Such baqwaas, yaar.

I forgot to add the obligatory Spoorlam stuff.

Thank you fellow Hindu Righter.

We must infiltrate the Californian School Board and ensure the visa to our future leader. Keep taunting these pinko hypocrites on Pseudo Secular Mutiny. They must be grandchildren of Romila Thapar.

Hail Mogambo!

Where the hell is the SM Intern when he/she is needed the most?

Probably laughing his/her/its ass off at how funny SpoorLam is :)

Hail Mogambo!

I stumbled into this confused and rambling (because of how far you stray from the topic) thread in my search to figure out what EXACTLY had happened to Ms. MIA...

And I laughed my gedunk-a-dunk off.

Did it occur to any of you high and mighty literary quoting, citizenship establishing, politically minded folks that the whole point of becoming a pop-icon who speaks about global/transnational/cival war issues she was raised around is to provoke discussions exactly like yours? Hmm...food for thought. And you were looking down on her for her spelling, when in reality she'd already sunk into your subconciousnesses (borders, crossing, identity, nationalism, war, terror, communication).

Did it occur to any of you high and mighty literary quoting, citizenship establishing, politically minded folks that the whole point of becoming a pop-icon who speaks about global/transnational/cival war issues she was raised around is to provoke discussions exactly like yours?

no, that had never occurred to us! thanks for the insight!

I stumbled into this confused and rambling (because of how far you stray from the topic) thread

and

(borders, crossing, identity, nationalism, war, terror, communication).

Speaking of rambling...

And I laughed my gedunk-a-dunk off.

That's so sad. Your jeans will never look the same.

#I don't think that Radovan Karadzic or Ratko Mladic are war criminals at all. I invite everyone to view some of the evidence in my possession about it at my blog site. I think it is easily proven that the CIA and Richard Holbrook are the Balkan War culprits.
Respectfully Yours,

Jill Starr

##

#What It’s Like to Chill with the Most Ruthless Men in the World
Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic:
Confessions of a Female War Crimes Investigator

Retrospectively, it was all so simple, natural and matter of fact being on a boat restaurant in Belgrade, sitting with, laughing, drinking a two hundred bottle of wine and chatting about war and peace while Ratko Mladic held my hand. Mladic, a man considered the world’s most ruthless war criminal since Adolf Hitler, still at large and currently having a five million dollar bounty on his head for genocide by the international community. Yet there I was with my two best friends at the time, a former Serbian diplomat, his wife, and Ratko Mladic just chilling. There was no security, nothing you’d ordinarily expect in such circumstances. Referring to himself merely as, Sharko; this is the story of it all came about.

It all began as former United States President Bill Clinton spearheaded NATO’s war against Serbia, Montenegro and Slobodan Milosevic (March 1999). Thirty-five years old, conducting graduate study work at the New School for Social Research in New York City in political science, I planned graduating spring 1999 with an area study emphasis in international law and human rights. I was naïve then, still believing strongly in democratic liberal concepts such as freedom of academic thought. Hence, I never anticipated my political views would impede either my graduation or completing my master’s thesis work on whether NATO member states committed gross violations of customarily accepted international criminal law in launching military aggression against Serbia and Montenegro owing to not acquiring United Nations Security Counsel approval prior.

Then as hit with the identical smart bomb dropped on Milosevic’s presidential palace in Serbia the night of April 22nd 1999, political science chairperson then at the New School, Professor David Plotke, summoned me into his office before class that evening and dismissed me from the master’s program at the New School owing to what he considered my possessing unsavory political science opinions.

Only having to complete two more classes to graduate, I always thought my future in political sciences as wide open with innumerous possibilities; unfortunately this proved untrue. Plotke told me in no uncertain terms that I was not the type of person the New School wanted walking around with a degree stating the New School’s prestigious name on it.

Ironically, the New School was an institution I attended only owing to its’ placing great pride and emphasis on allowing students complete academic freedom of thought without dictating what is and what is not politically correct to discuss. Yet surprisingly, dismissal from the program and blow to my graduate work should not been completely unexpected since the semester immediately prior, the school refused allowing me to conduct my graduate thesis work on the subject of whether the NATO and Bill Clinton committed war crimes against the former Yugoslavia during the Kosovo war (1999) and internally suggested I write about infringement of Muslim human rights in France. I suppose with the likes of Hillary Clinton and Tony Blair hanging about the fourth floor of the school at the renown World Policy Institute in 1999, I should have expected the university would not take kindly to student‘s speaking out critically against Bill Clinton and the Kosovo war (1999) he went down in history for advocating. Then again, in 1999 I still believed in the school’s core ideals of academic freedom, especially since I was paying no less than one thousand United States dollars a credit to attend. My civil rights lawsuit against the college is another story in and of itself not deserving extended amounts of space here, except what I already mentioned.

Dismissal from graduate school left me in a complete state of scholarly anomie seeking empathy and solace from my few friends and confidants at the time including many diplomats I studied with at the New School for several years. The list included but was not limited to ambassadors from Iran, Oman and a newly appointed First Secretary of the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York, Darko Trifunovic.

Noteworthy of mentioning, both the ambassadors from Iran and Oman both confided in me their own extreme dissatisfactions and the scholarly problems they themselves currently encountered at the New School for Social Research. On the last day attending the school, both aforementioned men explicitly complained to me the school was holding them back from graduating owing to their own so-called extremely unsavory political viewpoints. In particular the Iranian ambassador, Amir, was writing his master’s thesis on the Iranian contra affair and the man from Oman told me for years he was being held back from graduating because Greek Professor Addie Pollis strongly disdained his Islamic religious and cultural views insofar as human rights and multiple marriage partners by Muslim sultans in his country of origin. It was May (1999).

Riddled with uncertainty about my future scholarly status, I immediately applied for graduate study at Farleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey where I studied an additional two years before encountering similar problems with the graduate school faculty there. Ironically it was only FDU professors whom formerly studied themselves at the New School still in touch with the faculty there, who were later responsible for my having to leave the graduate program at FDU in early 2002.

Between the time of my dismissal from the New School and my dismissal from FDU the fall (2002), I stayed in touch with many scholars and other politically active persons sharing similar anti-war views as myself regarding NATO’s 1999 Kosovo war including: Professor Barry Lituchy (NYC), Ramsey Clark’s people at the International Action Center, and a couple of new acquaintances I’ve chanced meet online in Serbian political activist forums. One of those people was, Darko Trifunovic.

Darko and I were e-mailing each other regularly by early spring (1999) at which time he informed me that he became the newly appointed First Secretary of the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York City and wondered whether I would pick him up at JFK airport when he arrives in a few weeks; I acceded. Darko arrived first, his very beautiful wife, Bojana, arrived as expected about one month later after he was settled.
Darko greatly impressed me at the time. Being a former political advisor to the to the former female President of the Republic of Srpska in Bosnia, he had a degree in international law, diplomatic immunity, was a writer, handsome, and fun to just hang-out with and work. The three of us became extremely close friends and confidants. I even became voted in as the executive director of the Law Projects Center Yugoslavia in New York . The Law Projects Center was a United Nations accredited NGO and offshoot of the Yugoslav Coalition to Establish and international criminal court. Darko and some political people originally founded the organization in Belgrade Serbia prior his arrival in New York City in diplomatic capacity. I worked fervently legally registering the organization in New Jersey as a legally filed non-profit successfully. The Law Projects Center and its activities demanded Darko, his wife and I often stayed the night over each others’ apartments often; many times working days at a time with very little sleep.

From winter (1999) until fall (2002), Darko, his wife and I worked daily at the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York City co-authoring two books: 1) The Bosnian Model of Al-Qaeda Terrorism and; 2) The Srebrenica Massacre. As a young student of war and peace in the former Yugoslavia, I was in scholarly heaven accessing the United Nations to work with Darko daily. This enabled my meeting many of the most fascinating people in the world. I vividly remember Senator Bill Richardson at the time giving nightly press interviews on television about meeting with OPEC members states, “setting them straight about lowering oil prices in 2000.” Yet when I’d chit-chat with the Iranian ambassador in the city before class asking him about it he would say to me something to the effect as,” We at OPEC are so angry about former colonialism by England and America, OPEC will continually attempt bringing both the United States and England to their financial knees on energy issues…And by the way Jill, Russia does not in any manner intend to halt weapon sales to Iran.”

In fact Amir and I, notwithstanding our theological differences, got alone well. We’d often sit together before class acceding on a great many matters. In particular I remember us sitting one night and looking me square in the eye stating, “You know Jill, I will never believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” I replied, “And I Amir will never convert to Islam.” Now that we got that out of the way, we both smiled at one another getting down to discussing real issues.

The Bosnian mission to the United Nations in New York City in 2001 was an extremely interesting place. Reflecting the rotating ethnic presidency existing in Bosnia unto present, Mission employees were comprised of people of completely bipolar ethnic, theological and politically ideological viewpoints. The Head Ambassador of the Mission post 9-11 was then combating rumors of his soon becoming persona non grata in the United States for allegedly giving Osama Bin Laden a visa to travel through Bosnia illegally when previously stationed in Italy in 1993. There were also rumors he confessed to the United States Department of State of running international arms trades in connection with Al-Qaeda. The number two man at the Bosnian mission, the First Ambassador was Serbian, Orthodox Christian and a doctor of medicine by university degree. The First Secretary of the Mission was my friend Darko, the Consulate department was headed by an ethnic Muslim lady from Bosnia, and there was an ethnic Croatian woman floating around with other various diplomats being of Roman Catholic Croatian descent.

My time at the Mission was primarily spent fixing Darko’s laptop computer which became daily infected with computer viruses he continually claimed emanated from other employees at the Mission who were allegedly trying to sabotage him because of his ethnic Serbian background. I vividly recall the constant bickering between all the mission employees; always accusing each other of committing war crimes and giving each other computer viruses making it virtually impossible for any of them to get along. The Croatian diplomat usually stayed to herself with her office door shut while the others present usually just listened to Led Zeppelin rock music on their personal CD-ROM players. They told me repeatedly they had nothing else to do with their time at the United Nations beyond an occasional meeting except for listening to music and playing computer games.
Sad and ironic was the few things I noticed all the Bosnian mission employees agreeing upon was their undying love for the rock band, Led Zeppelin.

A year had come and gone while I totally immersed myself into political inquiry as to just who was guilty of committing war crimes in the former Yugoslavia. My favorite subjects of inquiry included: NATO, Kosovo & Metohia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and persons of interest such as Mladic and Hacim Thaci (Albanian Leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army). It was not enough for my merely taking in nightly news reports from CNN and other mainstream American media; to conduct an investigation for inquiry of social fact, I needed to go to Serbia and investigate for myself.

Only after seeing firsthand the goings on in the Balkans could I make a discriminate determination of guilty parties insofar as genocide there. After my fateful month long trip to Serbia and Montenegro in the fall 2002 I later concluded all warring parties involved had blood on their hands (Croats, Serbs, Muslims and the NATO); there are no innocents. But in 2001, neither my finances nor busy schedule allowed such a trip. Moreover, not speaking fluent Serbian coupled with the anti-American sentiment existing in Serbia then listed on the United States Department of State travel warning website caused going to there an unfeasible option. Hence, my life and studies went on as usual.

Several seasons went by and now it was spring 2001. Darko and his wife Bojana had time off which they spent visiting friends and family in Serbia for about two weeks. Because of this Darko was unable to function in full diplomatic capacity. In spring 2001 there was a preparatory commission meeting of plenipotentiaries to establish an international criminal court at the United Nations in New York City. Topics of the meeting included but were not limited to defining interstate acts of aggression, court financing etc.. Darko asked me if I would sit in for him at the meeting taking as many notes possible owing to the Law Projects Center possessing United Nations accreditation as a NGO (non governmental organization) with full observer status at the United Nations; I acceded.

Darko faxed me all necessary paperwork enabling my application attendance at this crucial meeting; I filled out the necessary forms and faxed them to the appropriate United Nations office for approval. It was an extremely exciting time for me. My close friend and colleague, Arnold Stark (History professor and Columbian University PhD) drove me into Manhattan walking me through the United Nations main entrance and security the day of attendance. Professor Stark himself was an old foreign service man from way back in the day and he told me I never looked as professionally sharp as I did on that day; I wore a navy blue pin striped suit. I must admit, I looked good.

Only post attending that day did I truly understand the total lapse of security existing then at the United Nations in New York City. I say this owing to the social fact that the Law Projects Center was indeed registered as an United nations accredited NGO it is true. However, closed meetings of this sort meant attendance was strictly limited to head ambassadors of valid United Nations member state missions and non governmental organizations possessing observer status were not allowed.

Unto present, I’ve yet understood whereby I gained entrance into this privy closed meeting consisting of only United Nations ambassadors, but I did. Walking to the basement floor of the United Nations building that day, I merely wore a visitors badge given to me at the front desk in no manner indicating that I was an ambassador of a United Nations mission; least of all the Bosnia mission as required for entrance. Totally unaware I didn’t possess necessary credentials to enter the meeting, I walked confidently towards the entrance door and past the guard stationed outside it. The guard never bothering to examine the type of badge I wore around my neck simply said “good day Madame” and urged me into the meeting; it was just about time to begin.

I immediately sensed something wrong once through the door past the guard. First, I was uncertain where to sit. Everyone else had a sign in front of their seat stating their country of origin. The Israeli ambassador sat in front of the Israel sign, the Spanish lady sat in front of the seat indicating she represented, Spain etc..

I looked fervently around the room seeing no seats indicating seats for United Nations observers anywhere. The last thing I wanted to do was to embarrass myself by taking the seat of an important ambassador; I noticed a couple of men seeming from some African state grabbing some meeting paperwork nearby so I inquired of them. I told them I was a newbie and inquired where to sit and what I should do. With heavy African accents one of them said, “just grab a bunch of these papers, sit there and look like you are busy,” so I did. In fact, I grabbed as many extra copies as I could without looking conspicuous when noticing another peculiarity.

The meeting papers indicated they were for restricted for the eyes of state mission heads’ only (chief ambassadors of countries) and allowing other persons and/or United Nations employees to view them was a punishable offense. Uncertain what to do, and with the meeting beginning, I merely sat there stunned. My seat and the one the African gentleman next to me took seemed extras because they neglected having any indication regarding country origin in front of them on the table; I felt safe.

As totally immersed and interesting as I found the topics, the African ambassador seated found boring. I say this owing to noticing during the entire meeting he was merely doodling nonsensical pictures on some legal pad. I think that no one took more notes that day than me. I was especially interested in the interstate bickering about financing the international criminal court should and when it came about. Spain was particularly forceful in vocalizing its opinion that the countries giving the most monetary contributions to the court itself ought have more power over both its staffing and its innocent and guilty verdicts as well as judges appointed. My suspicions’ equally shared by scholars such as Noam Chomsky and former attorney general, Ramsey Clark were now fully justifiably confirmed. The court itself was a great travesty of justice and I was actually witnessing quarrels between countries insofar as controlling the courts judges and verdicts based on financial contributions rather than on law and true international justice.

The most shocking point of the meeting for me was when the Israeli ambassador admitted openly to the other attendees that Israel was indifferent to war crimes, crimes against humanity and would in no manner support any international structure limiting its’ ability for practicing war and peace against any other state and/or party it considered a threat to its national interest. The ambassador representing the United States that day strongly and equally explicitly backed the Israeli position making clear American attendance was more for information gathering purposes and show than true concern for international law, world peace and social justice. When the meeting ended I slipped quickly out the front entrance of the United Nations; notes and papers in hand; I would read them in detail later that evening.

It must have amazed Darko upon returning from Serbia I actually gained entrance to the ICC preparatory closed meeting because within a week he invited me to the city to attend another important meeting at the United Nations comprised of diplomats from some very selective and prestigious NATO member states. I don’t recall the date but by his return fully I understood the definition of a closed meeting. Upon approaching the meeting door I became at once cognizant the meeting stated “closed meeting,” on the door. I did my best to point this fact out to Darko who told me to go in with him anyway; we did. Darko obviously thought because I gained entrance to the ICC meeting I ought not have in his absence, perhaps if I were with him, he covertly could gain access this closed NATO meeting; no dice. Upon entering the room, immediately some important looking man called him over and diplomatically informed him that “Serbia was not invited.” Darko pointed to me explaining that he was with the American lady but he was asked politely to leave; I followed him out the door embarrassed.

The following year was mundane. Filled with activities like shuttling back and forth to FDU for graduate school, fund raising for the Law Projects Center and co-authoring two book with Darko. The fateful day of 9/11 and the attacks by Al-Qaeda on the World Trade Center Towers in New York City changed my venue forever. Post 9/11 Darko became a man on a personal mission seemingly unrelated to the Bosnian mission itself.
He told me it was the utmost importance to publicize the alleged fact that the head ambassador of the Bosnian mission was in his estimation involved with Al-Qaeda. Darko had a seemingly ton of secret documentary evidence emanating from the ministry of internal affairs in Belgrade and Bosnia seeming true bolstering his allegations in my eyes then.

Asking me to fervently work on editing a book on which topic was meant for exposing the head ambassador of the Bosnian mission at that time; I acceded. The publication was later published by the Repubika Srpska information agency in Bosnia. The Serbian government in the Republika Srpska in Bosnia then was seriously pressing Darko for a fast publication so we stayed up many nights over his apartment in Forest Hills, New York working to do so. The book was entitled, ”The Bosnia Model of Al-Qaeda Terrorism. It can probably still be found and read online. Last time I checked it was posted on the website: http://www.analyst-network.com/profile.php?user_id=240.

Darko always told me I possessed full rights to this and other publications we worked on together. Although I edited and co-authoring the Al-Qaeda work, a few years back I noticed Darko removed my name on the inner front cover page as editor replacing it with the name of a Serbian editor. When questioned about it Darko told me he kept my name from being published because of the death threats and dangers to my life that he himself encountered because of its publication. I do vividly remember Darko receiving a great many death threats and threats towards his wife at the time, Bojana, so it is possible he was telling me the truth.

Even prior completing our work on the Al-Qaeda book together Darko was obsessed with manifesting the Bosnian Chief ambassador at the time as a terrorist. At the time I had no reason to doubt Darko’s word and assisted him in rabidly writing an open letter to all the United Nations member state missions exposing him as such. I surmise this is when Darko’s job at the United Nations as First Secretary of the Bosnian mission became jeopardized.

Today I surmise Darko’s employment at the United Nations genuinely became compromised owing not only to the inter-ethnic conflicts existing between him and the head ambassador then, a proud Muslim man, but also owing to the fact he forged birth certificates to acquire his position in the first place later becoming a social fact from the interior ministry in Bosnia. It was an emotional shock when Darko informed me a by summer 2001 that he lost his job and he and Bojana had to immediately return to Belgrade to work out the matter in court. This was also a great emotional blow to me also owing to the fact that I always possessed a crush on Darko and he knew it. This was a social fact I never publicly admitted previously to writing this book. I once even asked Darko if he wanted to have an affair with me but he declined stating he would never be unfaithful to his beautiful wife, Bojana. This left me in an extreme morally uncomfortable position because Bojana was my best friend. I continually told myself being attracted to her husband Darko was a non-option. Working so closely with him on an almost daily basis however made my attraction to him difficult to overcome.

I was also engaged to Professor Arnold Stark at the time and wore the ten thousand diamond ring he bought me on my finger. Arnold became increasingly jealous of Darko in time and eventually forbid me to work with him altogether. Notwithstanding, I continued working with Darko against Arnold’s wishes. This coupled with my trip to Serbia and Montenegro in 2002 eventually led to my breakup with Professor Stark and after almost an entire decade, my relationship with Arnold never fully recovered.

Darko tried keeping his job in diplomatic capacity at he UN as long as possible but the bipolar friction and hate existing between himself and the chief ambassador at the mission proved too much. The chief ambassador in contact with the Bosnian government at the time in Sarajevo eventually had Darko dismissed as first secretary of the mission. To the best of my recollection Darko was no longer receiving a monthly salary from Sarajevo by spring or summer 2002 (approximately).

I often came visiting Darko and Bojana’s apartment in Manhattan then situated on a side street within walking distance from the UN to help them out financially by buying them inexpensive dinners and such in Manhattan and chauffeuring them around (they did not own a car for the majority of their stay in the States).

In July 2002 as I remember the three of us spent many memorable moments going to the beaches outside the city and just spending time talking etc.. At the time and owing to my being in graduate school at FDU, I had plenty of extra money to burn owing my taking the maximum GSL student loans totaling about twenty thousand dollars a semester. Then one day that summer Darko informed me he and Bojana were only awaiting the Bosnian government to wire them a sum of five thousand dollars to pay off their American bills, last month rent and they would make a hasty exit back to Belgrade permanently. I was emotionally crushed.

Desperate not to lose contact with Darko because of my personal feelings towards him, I told him my summer classes at FDU were about to end August 2002 and although the fall semester was about to begin, I wanted to visit him in Serbia as soon as possible. Soon for me meant as soon as I received a check from the United States government for the total of that semesters’ student loan money in the amount of about ten thousand dollars.

Darko, hesitant at first soon gave in to my constant petitions to visit him. The day I brought them both to JFK to return to Serbia permanently, Bojana whispered something in Darko’s ear as we hugged saying our goodbyes all three of trying to hold back tears of parting and Darko looking me in the eye said something to the effect, “Jill, don’t worry as soon as you can afford it call me and we’ll arrange your visit.” Darko never could stand to see me cry which on many occasion I did owing to the loss of my two children and other personal challenges in my life. They turned and boarded their plane to Belgrade as I drove back to New Jersey. Driving home I felt an odd combination of extreme sadness at the loss of my two best friends mixed with the cheerful prospect I would shortly be boarding a plane myself destined for Serbia and Montenegro by mid August 2002 when my student loan check arrived.
Upon arriving home I immediately began making all necessary arrangements for my forthcoming trip.

The day following Darko ‘s departure, I bought a great many prepaid phone cards for the purpose of calling him owing to both my missing him and also my primarily wanting to began making all necessary arrangements facilitating my forthcoming visit from JFK to Beograd. I had countless questions such as: how much money will I need, how will I obtain a VISA being an American citizen with all the US State Department warnings against US citizenry traveling to the region, etc., etc., etc.. I had already obtained a valid United States passport many years ago which I always carried with me. I’ve always held the strong opinion that having a valid passport with you at all times is just a good idea. It enables one the necessary freedom to go to the airport and catch a plane going anywhere at anytime.

Darko told me that I need not worry about all the complicated VISA requirements listed on Serbian government website required of other Americans that he would handle everything. I was told merely to bring with me about five thousand United States dollars in cash spending money and it was a done deal. I went to buy some new suitcases and clothes for my trip in Wayne, New Jersey during the first two weeks in August 2002 in preparation. Packing was always a problem for me as Darko can attest to owing to my medically diagnosed attention deficit disorder. I had a difficult time deciding what to bring, so I tried to bring everything I thought I needed. The day of my departure my suitcases weighed way over the weight limit restrictions indicated by the airline.

Getting to JFK for departure in mid August 2002 proved to be an almost insurmountable task in and of itself owing to my heavy luggage and everyone I asked to drop me at the airport that day had strongly held views against my going. Arnold Stark declined to bring me owing to his personal jealousies insofar as Darko and everyone else had one or another excuse rooted in the anti-American sentiment in Serbia at that time and danger involved.

Undeterred, I finally convinced Archbishop John LoBue, my priest and confessor at the Holy Name Orthodox Christian Church in West Milford, New Jersey to take me as far as the Port Authority in Manhattan; from there I took a bus to JFK managing myself.

Post 9/11, JFK was supposedly safe beyond reproach insofar as security; this proved untrue. I had not traveled outside America in many years so I was unfamiliar with the new travel restrictions on such items as nail scissors etc., being illegal to bring onboard flights and carried several very sharp ones right passed JFK security inspection inside my purse on board out of my own ignorance of new flight rules. It was not until I arrived on my stopover in Paris, France that I was boarding onto a JAT (Yugoslav Air Travel) flight for Belgrade that the security officer of JAT told me that he had to confiscate the aforementioned items owing to new security precautions implemented post 9/11.

I informed him upon boarding my initial flight at JFK in New York, the security guards at the gate allowed me to board my flight to Paris carrying them in my purse. The JAT security employee merely shook his head in amazement mentioning something insofar as his seriously questioning American security in general stating that Jugosalv Air Travel obviously took airline and passenger security much more seriously.

I loved flying JAT! Not only was I completely satisfied the flight from Paris to Belgrade was many times more secure since JAT searched boarding passengers more thoroughly than JFK, the hospitality, food and drink was excellent. I say this owing to my being a well seasoned traveler having previously visited places such as Indonesia, Thailand and Hong Kong, etc.. It was extremely laid back on the flight. People moved around switching seats and chatting with good friends and the food was the best! My favorite Serbian food and drink were served and all airline employees shoed me the highest level of hospitality. I was extremely pleased with the professionalism and service on JAT I later began an online blog about it on Yahoo360.

Upon my flight arriving in Beograd, all passengers left the plane in the usual manner except Serbian citizens were shuffled through customs quickly merely showing their passport. All others including myself were asked to relinquish their passports and told to wait an unspecified amount of time in a holding area at the airport. An airport security officer went around confiscating our passports afterward leaving us merely standing there not knowing what to expect next. No other announcements were made; I did the only thing possible I relinquished my passport to the Serbian custom official along with the other western Europeans and/or Americans (if there were any) which I surmised like myself were attempting to enter Serbia from countries that were NATO allies in the Kosovo war against Slobodan Milosevic in 1999. There must have been about twenty persons with me just waiting.

All types of nagging thoughts plagued me such as “perhaps my friends were correct that I ought not have taken this trip…was it really too dangerous to travel to Serbia with all the anti-American sentiment and what would happen if Serbian customs decided I was an American spy, kept my passport and I ended in some unknown jail and/or murdered….who would find me…what could I do about it etc., etc., etc..”

It seemed nearly an hour passed; me and the others were still standing there waiting. I didn’t want to seem scared or overly curious by asking either Serbian custom officials or anyone else waiting with me anything as to not cause unnecessary attention to myself. I also kept checking my watch wondering if Darko knew I was here waiting. I had hoped with his government connections he would at least inquire about my arrival since he told me he would pick me up. I drew comfort from the fact Darko was always very punctual picking up and bringing himself and others to airports. On numerous occasions I gave him and others rides to and from them. These and other thoughts plagued me when suddenly I heard a voice on the loud speaker call my name, Jill Starr, asking me to go to a customs area to claim my passport. I was the first person called so I don’t know what happened to the others standing there still waiting. I hurriedly went to obtain my passport and was told that I cleared; the guard pointed the direction for me to go claim my luggage. You have no idea what a relief that was!

I took in my new surroundings pleased that I made it into the country successfully. As a young child my father took me with him traveling the world when he was an active nuclear engineering consultant for Chas T Main, USAID and the IMF. I had been in Indonesia during the turmoil in East Timor so I was used to being in war zones surrounded by soldiers with guns. I was presently older, but still I found such travel extremely exciting more than dangerous and looked forward to enjoying the rest of my vacation with Darko and Bojana.

Making it to the baggage claim area successfully I was relieved seeing Darko standing their waiting for me. I was not fluent in Serbian and didn‘t want to publicize it by asking people questions in English manifesting I was American. I hurried to him giving him a large hug.

I was so glad to see Darko. I noticed upon my arrival at the Belgrade airport that there were many female police officers equipped with guns wearing short mini skirts and extremely high heels. I asked Darko how they apprehended criminals in such high heels and he replied smirking that they don’t have to run, they merely shot those not halting in the back and that stopped them.

Like a dream come true, there I was in Beograd Serbia against all odds and complaints from my friends. Darko helped me get my luggage to his friend’s vehicle telling me we could talk about everything I had to say later because we had to hurry. Darko‘s friend, a German man living in Serbia for years and an important military employee of the Serbian government in a grayish older large SUV vehicle with what seemed a special license plate was impatiently waiting at the front gate of the airport for us. Darko’s friend did not speak fluent English but he did speak fluent German and Serbian. Darko told him to help lift my luggage into the trunk in Serbian and he did. Darko always liked to brag and as usual he introduced me to his friend giving me the details of his being an important man in the Serbian military etc.. We went straight from the Beograd airport to the home of Bojana’s family in the suburbs of Belgrade and all became reacquainted.

Bojana and I hugged; she introduced me to her family (father, mother and brother who was a high school student in Beograd).
Afterward, Darko showed me the room upstairs where I would sleep which was actually Bojana’s room also informing me of our three week itinerary; he had it all planned out. Darko told me we would all spend the night over Bojana’s house, the next day sleep at his apartment outside Beograd and later explained the next day we would stop at his father’s family’s house for dinner and leave from there making our way into Montenegro for a ten day vacation staying at his friend’s resort on Budva’s seaside coast. Along the way Darko told me he would give me the best tour I could ask for and he did. He showed me military installations and one of my favorite stops was the NATO bombed Chinese embassy which I stood in front of only several yards from.

My night at Bojana’s residence was wonderful. I was never showed as much love and hospitality as I did from her family. Although it was late in the evening (about 11pm Serbian time) when we arrived, Bojana’s mother, a wonderful woman, treated me as her own daughter. She insisted that Darko, Bojana and I enjoy what seemed a 10 course home cooked meal. She was still cooking while she served us a variety of cooked steaks, vegetables and pastries. And like many Italian families she insisted I tried and ate everything. To top the night off before bed Bojana and her father performed an accordion duet live in the kitchen for me. Apparently, Bojana and her father were professional accordion players and Bojana explained that her father’s employment consisted of playing nightly in a local bar. Thereafter, we went to bed with full stomachs.

The next morning we all enjoyed an equally exquisite breakfast. Bojana’s family had livestock in the backyard and her mother cooked us a fresh eggs and steak for breakfast like never before experienced. We said our parting goodbyes and left for Darko’s apartment in the hills of Beograd. We brought my suitcases in and upon entering I noticed there were lots of stray dogs around the apartment entrance. One in particular was very cute and Darko explained that the various residents fed it because it was so adorable. I found it interesting that so many old men were just hanging about the entrance to the apartment building drinking and just sitting there with seemingly nothing to do. They remained there throughout my entire trip.

Even when Ratko Mladic came to see me on my final day in Serbia in full military regalia giving me a parting gift (a book he inscribed to me entitled Serbija) while Darko took pictures of Mladic with his arm around me, the men remained there merely looking like old bums. Retrospectively, I wonder if they weren’t some watchmen and/or guards. Unto this day I always wondered what Darko did with those photos.

I was surprised what a very large apartment Darko owned. He showed me into his guest room and I unpacked my suitcases in just enough time to inform me I was to consolidate all my truly necessary items for Montenegro into one small bag that would reasonably fit into his trunk in the morning because he needed enough room for his and Bojana’s luggage also. He laughed at all the things I brought with me to Beograd telling me that I had no idea how to pack.

By the time I was done with that task Darko told me it was time to go meet some friends at a local café for coffee. It was late summer and the outside café’s in Beograd were the best ! We met up with a few friends in some restaurant in Beograd; there was about five of us sitting there just chatting and drinking coffee when I noticed an older gentleman sitting a few seats down with feathered salt and pepper colored hair not saying much except for an occasional laugh and nod at us. I wondered wherefore Darko a man about thirty would associate with such an older person, as for me being several years older than Darko, I thought to myself, what a cute guy. Then upon closer inspection, I realized it was doctor Radovan Karadzic. I knew he was a psychiatrist. By no means was this to be our last meeting. Throughout the time I spent in Serbia Darko met with Karadzic on many occasions in Beograd. The meetings were usually brief; only to exchange oral information and/or a few papers with Darko and whisper something or other in Darko‘s ear. He looks as the news media portrays him dressed in his gray wrinkled suit and tie and salt and pepper colored hair. He was a perfect gentleman all times I met him with Darko. After finishing our coffee, Darko said we ought leave and get a good nights rest because we had to leave early the next day for Montenegro.

The next morning we all got into Darko’s blue Audi (car) and left for his Father’s house. I remember arguing with Darko about wanting to bring lots of luggage with me and he replied I didn’t need all that stuff and I could only bring one normal sized bag with me and I had to leave the rest of my things at his apartment; I did. On the way to his father’s, Darko made a few important stops for the purpose of giving me the grand tour. We only stopped briefly at some military installations; we didn’t get out of the car. We drove up to the gates and Darko pointed out, “look Jill, this is an important military facility.” Darko always sarcastically smirked as he pointed out these places to me. The only place we got out was in front of the bombed out Chinese embassy in Beograd. There were Serbian military officers in front of the embassy. I was amazed owing to I always had thought bombed out buildings were totally demolished. But standing in front of the Chinese embassy that was bombed by the NATO in 1999 taught me the definition of a “smart bomb.”

Only the portion of the building hosting the embassy employees on the upper level of the building itself was demolished and in particular the window where the Chinese embassy officials worked. I could see in the window and I even got a sad glimpse of the Victorian styled chair sitting there empty in the bombed out window. I wondered who used to sit there and if they were dead or alive. No other parts of the building was seriously damaged. There were even flowers and trees still growing untouched in front of the building. I strongly believe that NATO knew exactly what they aimed at when they bombed the building.

I brought a digital camera with me on my trip but upon returning to the United States, all the film Darko claimed to snap for me was returned by my local film developer as blank. I wondered if Darko told me the truth about snapping photos for me at all. Throughout my trip he insisted on taking all the photos I wanted claiming I take poor pictures. It since crossed my mind he may have removed the film from my camera prior my departing Serbia so I could not take it back with me. One thing I am sure of is both Darko and Bojana refused having any photos taken of them throughout my entire stay.

After leaving the scene at the Chinese embassy, we made our way to the home of Darko’s father driving through a beautiful park not dissimilar to Central Park in Manhattan along the way. I can’t be certain what park it was because I didn’t know the geographical area; we soon arrived at our destination. Darko’s father lived in the most incredibly beautiful green hills in an area of Serbia existing somewhere between Beograd and Montenegro. Immediately upon entering and meeting his father, stepmother and grandmother who recently passed away, I felt part of the family. Although his family did not speak English, Darko and Bojana translated for me.

Darko’s grandmother was an extraordinarily warm and wise woman in whose presence I felt comfortable and happy the entire time. Before dinner there was the customary libation of grappa (a Serbian hard liquor of incredible potency). If only I could find grappa here in America. After another dinner that would give Manhattan’s top chefs a run for their money, Darko brought me upstairs into a guest room to take a nap.

I told him I was not tired but he insisted I nap saying we would be driving all night before reaching Montenegro and I need my rest. I must have slept an hour before he awakened me to say our parting goodbyes and begin our journey. I was extremely excited; Darko promised me a three week Adriatic holiday allowing me swimming privileges at every beach from Hercegovni to an area he said was only ten meters from Kosovo’s border. We couldn’t go into Kosovo Darko said because it was too dangerous. I knew Darko had been shot several times and almost killed in Kosovo previously so I didn’t push the issue. As a former lifeguard and avid swimmer, I couldn‘t wait for my vacation to start and Darko delivered it to me as promised.

The onset of our journey began at sunset; still adjusting to the time zone differential I dozed off in Darko’s backseat; for how long I’m uncertain. I dozed on and off until sunrise when we reached the Montenegrin border. I mean, there wasn’t much to see driving in the dark cover of night. The wider well lit highway we initially set out upon gradually narrowed as the highway lights became fewer. Eventually there were no highway lights at all. My body continuously shifted from one side of Darko’s backseat to the other making sleep difficult.
It was obvious the road we traversed was analogous to Pacific Coast Highway in California driving through Big Sur. It was mountainous, dangerously ridden with hairpin turns and no guardrails. In Montenegro, inexperienced travelers could almost mistake the scenery for Big Sur with the beautiful blue Adriatic sea hugging the bottoms of the cliffs we not so cautiously traveled. I asked Darko to slow down because he was driving like speed racer. He replied not to worry explaining he could drive these roads blindfolded he knew them well. I thought to myself, better safe than sorry buddy. It is a good thing I had some prescription Xanax with me, I popped one, maybe two just to relax while simultaneously trying to hide this act from Darko since he hated drugs in general. He especially hated my taking the prescription medications my doctor gave me saying I didn’t need them, they were addicting and poison. He also strongly disdained cigarettes; Bojana smoked covertly.

The sun was just rising when Darko awakened me excitedly pointing out the tunnel we were driving through. I think he said at the other end we’d be entering Montenegro. Driving to the Budva Riviera in Montenegro we drove through some similar tunnels; the scenery was unbelievably breathtaking. There is no other place in the world I’d rather be than in Budva Montenegro and I recommend everyone vacation there. We were making our way to a seaside resort a friend of Darko owned. Still driving like speed racer around the hairpin turns and mountainous cliffs compromising the road, we finally arrived at our destination safely. I admit Darko is an excellent driver; his driving is reminiscent of agent 007 in James Bond movies.

Because of the Kosovo war, there was not one functional ATM in either in Serbia and Montenegro. To be safe I split the five thousand dollars we had between Darko and I. I held onto half and he the other. One of my favorite stories I tell people of my trip is how I swam with my money throughout the trip; it made me feel secure always keeping some cash on me at all times; even when I was swimming a quarter mile out in the Adriatic sea. Darko told me not to; I did anyway.

Owing to that, the cash I held was often wet. One particular time we went to a bank in Montenegro. The banks there are so remarkably careful of counterfeiting, they refused exchanging my United States dollars for Euros because my money was wet; the three of us returned to the hotel using my blow dryer to evaporate the dollar bills until dried. The three of us henceforth joked about this saying we laundered the money.

Upon arriving at the resort, Darko introduced me to his friend and we worked out the financial gratuities for our stay. We paid him eight hundred United States dollars for ten days; meals included. Unlike hotels in America, meals meant an extremely large home cooked breakfast consisting of large varieties of meat, coffee and juice. Lunch and dinner consisted of many course meals where main dishes consisted of either freshly caught seafood or meat. Our accommodation consisted of two medium sized rooms with separate entrances; one for myself and another for Darko and Bojana. To reach the beach we only needed to walk across the street and down a small path; one could see Italy at the other end of the horizon on a clear day. I was ecstatic loving to swim. Since Bojana didn’t swim, Darko couldn’t always accompany me to the beach so I‘d just walk to it myself for periodic swims throughout the day; August was a very hot month. Of any country I’ve visited, Serbia and Montenegro wins my top prize for fun, food, beauty and hospitality. Everyone is friendly, warm, the atmosphere is relaxed and laid back and most persons speak some English owing to children learning English as a second language in school at a young age. Unfortunately, American school children do not grow up learning another language other than native English which leaves them I feel at an intellectual disadvantage.

Each day Darko took us to another beach for a day enjoying food, drink, music, perhaps some shopping and primarily, swimming. As long as I could swim for hours each day I was happy. By the time nighttime rolled in all of us were so tired each day we usually had dinner and retired early, except for one night. This just happened to be the one night of my entire vacation I was overly exhausted wanting to retire early at any cost. Inversely, this was the one evening both Darko and Bojana incredibly excited informed me to take a shower, dress and get ready for a big surprise.

When I asked Darko what this surprise was and its great importance being I was so tired; he merely insisted I go get ready for it. Darko was always very bossy in my estimation constantly telling us when to sleep, awakening Bojana and I up early, limiting our time before breakfast for dressing, blow drying our hair etc. which the two of us always complained about privately to each other. I always accepted this as part of his personality but this night it annoyed me to no end; I simply wanted sleep, surprise or not. As usual I gave into to Darko’s demands by hurrying to my room, showering, changing, and preparing myself for a night out. If you’re a woman, you understand when you have a crush on someone as I did Darko, you usually give into his demands easily; so I did.

Upon changing, Dark and Bojana were waving me to hurry to the car; exhausted I got in and slammed the door. Less than ten minutes up the pitch black road Darko pulled the car over and we got out. Darko and Bojana said, “Hurry Jill look down there.” At the bottom of the cliffs was the most beautiful city of lights I’ve ever seen. Darko said proudly, “this is Budva Jill, that‘s where we are going.” It was many times more beautiful that Paris or Manhattan at night and situated in a valley about a mile and a half wide forcing the Montenegrin peninsula farther out. It was a remarkably amazing sight, Budva itself being lit up with a wide variety of bright lights surrounded by an aura of pitch black. By this time Bojana started complaining to Darko to move his car in more because someone may come around the sharp turn in the darkness sideswiping it. Darko never worried much about illegal parking or his speed limit owing to whenever getting pulled over, he just made manifest to the officer his huge governmental badge and they let him go; the badge was at least three times larger than the usual American police officer badge and was gold in color.

Darko became annoyed with Bojana’s complaints so we returned to the car, got in and descended about five minutes down the treacherously dark road into Budva and parked. I couldn’t believe it! It was like a dream, We walked down around Budva, Darko pointing out everything.

We stopped to have a drink at one of the many outdoor bar/café’s and listened to the live entertainment while we sipped our drinks. Then I went to buy another bathing suit at a small shop when Darko told me to follow him and Bojana into the most amazing bar I’ve ever seen, anywhere in the world. The bar itself was actually a small island rocky island; to reach it one had to walk underground maybe a little less than one quarter mile. Upon entering the bar it had many levels; all outside surrounded by the roaring nighttime surf of the sea and live entertainment. I saw a few people illegally swimming and asked Darko if I could swim there too. He informed me the swimming was closed for the evening. We ordered drinks and sat there chilling for a while. On the walk back Darko showed me all the gambling casinos along the Riviera. It looked like anyone could get whatever they wanted in Budva if they had the correct amount of money with them. Montenegro was to me akin to a luxurious playground for the ultra rich, famous as well as infamous. We then walked back via way of the tunnel, stopped at a small outdoor restaurant all ordering a type of delicious pancake we enjoyed by dipping it in chocolate syrup and drove back to the hotel to get some rest.

The next day Darko took merely us to another gorgeous beach. It was reminiscent of Greece. The water was sapphire blue, clear and warm. The beach itself was not large, but completely hidden by huge rocky cliffs. The three of us took a kind of small craft about a quarter of a mile out into the Adriatic; Darko and I jumped in for a swim. Bojana was partially nude sunbathing at the time on the boat and since she was unable to swim, Darko teased her by stealing her clothes, pretending not to give them back to her. She immediately became upset demanding Darko return her clothes; Darko soon complied with her demands. Thereafter, we ended the day with lunch and drinks. The following day was one of my vacation high points. We visited the Ostrog monastery.

Driving to the Ostrog monastery was long, hot and boring. It lied somewhere deep beyond the Montenegrin coastline inland. We drove a long windy road without even so much as a store on it. After a couple of hours, Darko stopped for lunch at the only restaurant I noticed the entire trip. You’d think it would be small being situated in the middle of what I considered, “nowhere.” However, this was not the case.

There was actually a long line and tons of people there having lunch. I could only imagine like us they were on their way to visit Ostrog. The restaurant itself was classy and I can only liken it to seeing a luxurious restaurant in the middle of the Mohave desert. While I was visiting Ostrog monastery in Montenegro, Darko introduced me to a Serbian priest asking me if I wanted confession. The man looked almost verbatim to Karadzic in his monks getup. I mean the way the latest news photos of Karadzic in his monk getup looks. I only became cognizant of this recently since the photos of him since his arrest have been made publicly manifest. In particular I remember the priest’s large darker curl on the top of this priest’s head like in the recent Karadzic photos; I wondered who would make their monks hair like that. This priest blessed me and told Darko in Serbian he could not hear my confession owing to his not understanding English well. He gave me a gift, a book about the monastery itself which I gave to Archbishop John LoBue in West Milford (my priest).

While visiting Ostrog, we venerated the holy relics leaving an offering of either food or money at the door leading to the holy relics; I can’t remember which now. Leaving, we looked around the gift shop, had coffee at the small Ostrog monastery café and Darko gave me a tour where the monks sleep and shower. Then we made the long drive back to the hotel. We had the usual dinner at which time Bojana was overcome with a terrible toothache. I told her I’d pay for the filling tomorrow; Darko knew a dentist 10 meter from Kosovo‘s border. Tomorrow we‘d swim there and have Bojana‘s tooth looked at. The town we went to the next day possessed an ethnic Albanian majority and organized crime was everywhere.

Before retiring for the evening I went for a small walk around the corner from the hotel to buy some snacks; there was a small store there. I never felt endangered at any time by anyone. During my stay in Montenegro I walked to the store myself almost daily buying drinks and other items I could enjoy privately in my room at night. I never noticed previously to that evening’s walk just how many persons actually were vacationing from Western Europe in Budva the fall 2002 like me.

After promenading to the store, upon returning to the hotel, a German man sitting outside the hotel and speaking in broken English introduced himself. When I told him that I was from New Jersey in the United States he became extremely interested and warmly said he is pleased I was able to enjoy the area. I replied, “I was tired and needed to retire.” Saying he understood he returned to his card game.

We had the usual dinner at which time Bojana was overcome with a terrible toothache. I told her I’d pay for the filling tomorrow; Darko knew a dentist ten meters from Kosovo‘s border. Tomorrow we‘d swim there and have Bojana‘s tooth looked at. The town we went to the next day possessed an ethnic Albanian majority and organized crime was everywhere.

We awoke early as to get Bojana to the dentist. This is actually where the Montenegrin bank had refused to exchange our money for Euros. Managing cash was difficult in Serbia and Montenegro owing to that the national currency in Serbia was still dinars and in Montenegro it was Euros. Most businessman preferred either Euros or American dollars, but one never knew which.

Upon parking, Darko led the way down the busy street towards the dentist who I remember being an ethnic Albanian man. Apparently, they visited this dentist previously and he was extremely friendly. Not at any time did any ethnic Albanians cause me, Darko or Bojana any problems because I was American and they were Serb. The dentist was going to take a while and since the bank would not exchange our American dollars for Euros, we could buy neither lunch nor anything else and we all possessed a ravenous hunger for lunch.

Ignoring Darko’s warnings not to go wondering myself, I left the dentist office under the pretense of going for a walk while Bojana had her dental work completed. Before Darko could catch me I was gone. I walked up the main street about one mile and began asking people in English where I could exchange United States currency for Euros. I came upon a well dressed ethnic Albanian high school student, a girl speaking perfect English who told me to walk up the street about another half mile and when I see men selling the cigarettes outside on a bridge table, ask them to do the deed; I did.
The girl asked me about America saying her greatest wish was to study in New York City one day. When I told her about my experience at the New School for Social Research, being dismissed for my anti NATO views on the Kosovo war she replied to me, “maybe she was wrong about wanting to study in Manhattan.”

I made my way to the table with about five ethnic Albanian men hanging about selling cigarettes and asked them in English if they could exchange money for me; they did. They were definitely organized crime. They took my wet cash, examined the bills, one man walked into an apartment building with my cash while I merely waited. He didn‘t rob me and returned with my Euros. Surprisingly, I found everyone in both Serbia and Montenegro very honorable in their business dealings; even if those dealings are organized crime.

Upon receiving my Euros from the men, I walked away back to see if Bojana was through with the dentist; she was. I excitedly told Darko that I had successfully managed to exchange American dollars for Euros thinking he’d be pleased with me; he wasn’t. Darko was always very protective of me. Instead of commending me he immediately got very angry; scolding me he said exchanging money illegally in the streets of Montenegro was both illegal and dangerous. You can’t change the past so I diplomatically apologized and Darko soon forgot his anger I lieu of the fact that now we all could have lunch. Afterward, Darko brought us to a beautiful beach nearby. The majority of the sunbathers were ethnic Albanian and again no one harassed us based on our ethnicity. I tried pushing Darko into driving into Kosovo but he flatly refused. I found it interesting that the international news at this time was reporting that there were hundreds of thousands of homeless ethnic Albanians being ethnically cleansed to Albania, I did not see one ethnic Albanian or Roma homeless on the streets anywhere. All seemed normal only ten meters from the Kosovo border. After a day of swimming and partially nude sunbathing, we returned to the hotel.

Insofar as sequence of events, at this junction in time it was the last few days I spent in Montenegro; it’s difficult now to remember the exact timeline of events. In other words, I remember visiting Old Town and Podgorica also in Montenegro but uncertain of which locations we visited first. During the last two days, Darko took me one day to Old Town in Montenegro for dinner; there we greatly enjoyed an expensive seafood meal after which we walked around. Darko got a parking ticket that night in Old Town and greatly complained about its five dollar fee; for some, five dollars is equal to an entire week pay in Serbia. I think I offered him the five dollars for the ticket feeling guilty because it was only for my benefit he parked there at all. Darko wanted to show me Old Town; he already knew what the beautiful cobble stone streets looked like.

We also went to the Montenegrin capital, Podgorica. I really don’t remember much of Podgorica except for walking around the streets one night. Since we didn’t swim there so it wasn’t a high point for me. When our ten day stay in Montenegro was finished we all packed and returned the way we came in Darko’s car. The day before we left, Darko’s car required maintenance. We didn’t have enough cash on hand left to pay for the needed repairs so I called Arnold Stark, my fiancée in the states, asking him to please wire us five hundred dollars cash to Montenegro; he did. This is a fact that Arnold himself can verify being that he alone possesses the charge card receipt for wiring us the money through Western Union to a town not far from Budva. With Darko’s car repairs complete, we returned home for Beograd.

On the way back to Beograd we made two more important stops. One was Hercegovni where we met up with Darko’s cousin, a soon to be freshman college student and her friends. We had a couple of drinks, snapped some photos and Darko and I went for a quick swim in the sea. When it began to rain, we called it a day. The other stop was somewhere on the way back, where I have no idea. We pulled up to a large lake. Darko pulled his car onto a large ferry boat. There were some people on the ferry, but primarily soldiers from the Serbian military. Reaching the other side we drove around but I can’t remember much.


Returning on the ferry, we piled into Darko’s car and appeared at his apartment several hours later. We were all extremely exhausted and passed out as soon as possible in our separate rooms. Again, we walked past the same old men sitting in front of Darko’s apartment building seeming to do nothing; they waved at us.

There were only two days left of my vacation at this point; I didn’t feel like doing much of anything. I’d come down with terrible stomach symptoms that began in Budva several days prior. This was probably owing to my ignoring Darko and Bojana’s warning not to drink ta

Harry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Say>>

The Instablog.Com website administration today stated on my blog account, I am no longer authorized to submit articles for some unknown reason. I surmise the reason may be I’m submitting too many articles at once. Hence, I opened an additional account just so I could post this follow up comment on my previously written article entitled, Comparing West Milford Detectives in New Jersey to the Treatment Received By Karadzic and Mladic in Serbia.

Please read it.

It is an extremely important legal case I am submitting to the Hague Court in the Netherlands as an individual complainant from here in the United States of America. I hope it will set an international precedent even in America people are abused by government officers.

I am fully convinced after almost a decade of asking the legal governmental authorities at local, state and federal levels here in the United States of America to arrest and try Detective Harry Shortway and his Sgt. Laughlin in a court of law in America for attempting to murder me and moreover physically and emotionally torturing me and my family in 1990/1991,

it is clear,

the United States of America is either unwilling OR incapable of taking the bold moral measures to arrest Harry Shortway and associates giving him a fair trial here in America similarly to what American diplomats such as Hillary Clinton accuse Serbia of not submitting General Mladic to the Hague for trial.

Hypocritical America, don’t you agree (?)

This makes a mockery of genuine ideals insofar as human rights in America while manifesting extremely gross violations of human rights against me as well as attempted genocide committed against me by Harry Shortway (on account of allegedly wanting to kill me because I derive from a Jewish family background and was then married to a black on account of his fascist affiliations with the National Alliance KKK group). These crimes against me occurred only thirty minutes away from the United Nations Security Council in Manhattan; I, Jill Starr am an American citizen and previously wrote the UN about this in the early 1990s.

All together now let’s remember the crime of ‘genocide’ in and of itself, can be the attempt to kill one OR thousands of members of any ethnic, religious group.

More to come on this story.
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I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:

1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT).

SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS POLICE CAR WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP WATCHED. THEN HE SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFING WHICH HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUE LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.

I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:

1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED WAVY HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT).

SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT IN HIGHCREST LAKE COMMUNITY WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS POLICE CAR ABOUT TEN TIMES NONSTOP WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP STOOD THERE DOING NOTHING MERELY WATCHING ME BE ABUSED.

THEN SGT LAUGHLIN SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFS WHICH HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUED LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.

THIS FINANCIAL REWARD IS CONTINGENT UPON ANY FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT I MAY RECEIVE IN THE FUTURE FROM THE THREE GRADUATE SCHOOLS FORMERLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME IN THE MOST VILE MANNERS IN THE NJ AND NYC AREAS.

I WILL OFFER SPLIT EQUITABLE FINANCIAL REWARD OF 50% OF ANY MONEY I RECEIVE TO THOSE AGENCIES AND/OR INDIVIDUALS COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO HELP BRING THESE RUTHLESS DETECTIVES AND THEIR SGT’S TO JUSTICE AND JAIL.

AND, IF AMERICAN CANNOT FIND THE MORAL AND POLITICAL WILLPOWER TO BRING THEM TO JUSTICE AND TRIAL HERE IN THE USA, I WANT THEM EXTRADITED TO THE HAGUE ICC COURT.

In friendship and diplomacy my reputation for honesty proceeds me so all interested persons and/or parties in helping me bring Shortway and his Sgt Laughlin from West Milford NJ to trial at teh Hague,

can rest assured I will uphold my end of the reward agreement shall I receive financial settlement myself from the aforementioned colleges in the near future.
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Posted by lpcyusa at 6:52 AM
1 comments:

lpcyusa said...

I Felt many Times Safer With General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting Alone In My Apartment In Bloomingdale, NJ USA

As an after thought on my book. I doubt very much that I met Mr. Mladic on a �baor restaurant.� There was no one else present having dinner.

It as more like a living and/or conference setting and seems to me now to be more like a private yacht. I have never really been on one before but it reminded me of photos I’ve seen of the interior of Onassis’s yachts.

I felt many times more safer sitting with General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting At Home In My Apartment In Bloomingdale, NJ US!

Although it may sound foreign to many here in America, I would feel safer having the Serbian Army as my bodyguards here at my house in Bloomingdale, NJ where I rent a small apartment to protect me from the local townships’ corrupt law enforcement officials and if I had teh finances I hire a few.
April 2, 2009 6:57 AM

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Delete this jerk.

##

#What It’s Like to Chill with the Most Ruthless Men in the World
Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic:
Confessions of a Female War Crimes Investigator

Retrospectively, it was all so simple, natural and matter of fact being on a boat restaurant in Belgrade, sitting with, laughing, drinking a two hundred bottle of wine and chatting about war and peace while Ratko Mladic held my hand. Mladic, a man considered the world’s most ruthless war criminal since Adolf Hitler, still at large and currently having a five million dollar bounty on his head for genocide by the international community. Yet there I was with my two best friends at the time, a former Serbian diplomat, his wife, and Ratko Mladic just chilling. There was no security, nothing you’d ordinarily expect in such circumstances. Referring to himself merely as, Sharko; this is the story of it all came about.

It all began as former United States President Bill Clinton spearheaded NATO’s war against Serbia, Montenegro and Slobodan Milosevic (March 1999). Thirty-five years old, conducting graduate study work at the New School for Social Research in New York City in political science, I planned graduating spring 1999 with an area study emphasis in international law and human rights. I was naïve then, still believing strongly in democratic liberal concepts such as freedom of academic thought. Hence, I never anticipated my political views would impede either my graduation or completing my master’s thesis work on whether NATO member states committed gross violations of customarily accepted international criminal law in launching military aggression against Serbia and Montenegro owing to not acquiring United Nations Security Counsel approval prior.

Then as hit with the identical smart bomb dropped on Milosevic’s presidential palace in Serbia the night of April 22nd 1999, political science chairperson then at the New School, Professor David Plotke, summoned me into his office before class that evening and dismissed me from the master’s program at the New School owing to what he considered my possessing unsavory political science opinions.

Only having to complete two more classes to graduate, I always thought my future in political sciences as wide open with innumerous possibilities; unfortunately this proved untrue. Plotke told me in no uncertain terms that I was not the type of person the New School wanted walking around with a degree stating the New School’s prestigious name on it.

Ironically, the New School was an institution I attended only owing to its’ placing great pride and emphasis on allowing students complete academic freedom of thought without dictating what is and what is not politically correct to discuss. Yet surprisingly, dismissal from the program and blow to my graduate work should not been completely unexpected since the semester immediately prior, the school refused allowing me to conduct my graduate thesis work on the subject of whether the NATO and Bill Clinton committed war crimes against the former Yugoslavia during the Kosovo war (1999) and internally suggested I write about infringement of Muslim human rights in France. I suppose with the likes of Hillary Clinton and Tony Blair hanging about the fourth floor of the school at the renown World Policy Institute in 1999, I should have expected the university would not take kindly to student‘s speaking out critically against Bill Clinton and the Kosovo war (1999) he went down in history for advocating. Then again, in 1999 I still believed in the school’s core ideals of academic freedom, especially since I was paying no less than one thousand United States dollars a credit to attend. My civil rights lawsuit against the college is another story in and of itself not deserving extended amounts of space here, except what I already mentioned.

Dismissal from graduate school left me in a complete state of scholarly anomie seeking empathy and solace from my few friends and confidants at the time including many diplomats I studied with at the New School for several years. The list included but was not limited to ambassadors from Iran, Oman and a newly appointed First Secretary of the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York, Darko Trifunovic.

Noteworthy of mentioning, both the ambassadors from Iran and Oman both confided in me their own extreme dissatisfactions and the scholarly problems they themselves currently encountered at the New School for Social Research. On the last day attending the school, both aforementioned men explicitly complained to me the school was holding them back from graduating owing to their own so-called extremely unsavory political viewpoints. In particular the Iranian ambassador, Amir, was writing his master’s thesis on the Iranian contra affair and the man from Oman told me for years he was being held back from graduating because Greek Professor Addie Pollis strongly disdained his Islamic religious and cultural views insofar as human rights and multiple marriage partners by Muslim sultans in his country of origin. It was May (1999).

Riddled with uncertainty about my future scholarly status, I immediately applied for graduate study at Farleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey where I studied an additional two years before encountering similar problems with the graduate school faculty there. Ironically it was only FDU professors whom formerly studied themselves at the New School still in touch with the faculty there, who were later responsible for my having to leave the graduate program at FDU in early 2002.

Between the time of my dismissal from the New School and my dismissal from FDU the fall (2002), I stayed in touch with many scholars and other politically active persons sharing similar anti-war views as myself regarding NATO’s 1999 Kosovo war including: Professor Barry Lituchy (NYC), Ramsey Clark’s people at the International Action Center, and a couple of new acquaintances I’ve chanced meet online in Serbian political activist forums. One of those people was, Darko Trifunovic.

Darko and I were e-mailing each other regularly by early spring (1999) at which time he informed me that he became the newly appointed First Secretary of the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York City and wondered whether I would pick him up at JFK airport when he arrives in a few weeks; I acceded. Darko arrived first, his very beautiful wife, Bojana, arrived as expected about one month later after he was settled.

Darko greatly impressed me at the time. Being a former political advisor to the to the former female President of the Republic of Srpska in Bosnia, he had a degree in international law, diplomatic immunity, was a writer, handsome, and fun to just hang-out with and work. The three of us became extremely close friends and confidants. I even became voted in as the executive director of the Law Projects Center Yugoslavia in New York . The Law Projects Center was a United Nations accredited NGO and offshoot of the Yugoslav Coalition to Establish and international criminal court. Darko and some political people originally founded the organization in Belgrade Serbia prior his arrival in New York City in diplomatic capacity. I worked fervently legally registering the organization in New Jersey as a legally filed non-profit successfully. The Law Projects Center and its activities demanded Darko, his wife and I often stayed the night over each others’ apartments often; many times working days at a time with very little sleep.

From winter (1999) until fall (2002), Darko, his wife and I worked daily at the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York City co-authoring two books: 1) The Bosnian Model of Al-Qaeda Terrorism and; 2) The Srebrenica Massacre. As a young student of war and peace in the former Yugoslavia, I was in scholarly heaven accessing the United Nations to work with Darko daily. This enabled my meeting many of the most fascinating people in the world. I vividly remember Senator Bill Richardson at the time giving nightly press interviews on television about meeting with OPEC members states, “setting them straight about lowering oil prices in 2000.� Yet when I’d chit-chat with the Iranian ambassador in the city before class asking him about it he would say to me something to the effect as,� We at OPEC are so angry about former colonialism by England and America, OPEC will continually attempt bringing both the United States and England to their financial knees on energy issues…And by the way Jill, Russia does not in any manner intend to halt weapon sales to Iran.�

In fact Amir and I, notwithstanding our theological differences, got alone well. We’d often sit together before class acceding on a great many matters. In particular I remember us sitting one night and looking me square in the eye stating, “You know Jill, I will never believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.� I replied, “And I Amir will never convert to Islam.� Now that we got that out of the way, we both smiled at one another getting down to discussing real issues.

The Bosnian mission to the United Nations in New York City in 2001 was an extremely interesting place. Reflecting the rotating ethnic presidency existing in Bosnia unto present, Mission employees were comprised of people of completely bipolar ethnic, theological and politically ideological viewpoints. The Head Ambassador of the Mission post 9-11 was then combating rumors of his soon becoming persona non grata in the United States for allegedly giving Osama Bin Laden a visa to travel through Bosnia illegally when previously stationed in Italy in 1993. There were also rumors he confessed to the United States Department of State of running international arms trades in connection with Al-Qaeda. The number two man at the Bosnian mission, the First Ambassador was Serbian, Orthodox Christian and a doctor of medicine by university degree. The First Secretary of the Mission was my friend Darko, the Consulate department was headed by an ethnic Muslim lady from Bosnia, and there was an ethnic Croatian woman floating around with other various diplomats being of Roman Catholic Croatian descent.

My time at the Mission was primarily spent fixing Darko’s laptop computer which became daily infected with computer viruses he continually claimed emanated from other employees at the Mission who were allegedly trying to sabotage him because of his ethnic Serbian background. I vividly recall the constant bickering between all the mission employees; always accusing each other of committing war crimes and giving each other computer viruses making it virtually impossible for any of them to get along. The Croatian diplomat usually stayed to herself with her office door shut while the others present usually just listened to Led Zeppelin rock music on their personal CD-ROM players. They told me repeatedly they had nothing else to do with their time at the United Nations beyond an occasional meeting except for listening to music and playing computer games.
Sad and ironic was the few things I noticed all the Bosnian mission employees agreeing upon was their undying love for the rock band, Led Zeppelin.

A year had come and gone while I totally immersed myself into political inquiry as to just who was guilty of committing war crimes in the former Yugoslavia. My favorite subjects of inquiry included: NATO, Kosovo & Metohia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and persons of interest such as Mladic and Hacim Thaci (Albanian Leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army). It was not enough for my merely taking in nightly news reports from CNN and other mainstream American media; to conduct an investigation for inquiry of social fact, I needed to go to Serbia and investigate for myself.

Only after seeing firsthand the goings on in the Balkans could I make a discriminate determination of guilty parties insofar as genocide there. After my fateful month long trip to Serbia and Montenegro in the fall 2002 I later concluded all warring parties involved had blood on their hands (Croats, Serbs, Muslims and the NATO); there are no innocents. But in 2001, neither my finances nor busy schedule allowed such a trip. Moreover, not speaking fluent Serbian coupled with the anti-American sentiment existing in Serbia then listed on the United States Department of State travel warning website caused going to there an unfeasible option. Hence, my life and studies went on as usual.

Several seasons went by and now it was spring 2001. Darko and his wife Bojana had time off which they spent visiting friends and family in Serbia for about two weeks. Because of this Darko was unable to function in full diplomatic capacity. In spring 2001 there was a preparatory commission meeting of plenipotentiaries to establish an international criminal court at the United Nations in New York City. Topics of the meeting included but were not limited to defining interstate acts of aggression, court financing etc.. Darko asked me if I would sit in for him at the meeting taking as many notes possible owing to the Law Projects Center possessing United Nations accreditation as a NGO (non governmental organization) with full observer status at the United Nations; I acceded.

Darko faxed me all necessary paperwork enabling my application attendance at this crucial meeting; I filled out the necessary forms and faxed them to the appropriate United Nations office for approval. It was an extremely exciting time for me. My close friend and colleague, Arnold Stark (History professor and Columbian University PhD) drove me into Manhattan walking me through the United Nations main entrance and security the day of attendance. Professor Stark himself was an old foreign service man from way back in the day and he told me I never looked as professionally sharp as I did on that day; I wore a navy blue pin striped suit. I must admit, I looked good.

Only post attending that day did I truly understand the total lapse of security existing then at the United Nations in New York City. I say this owing to the social fact that the Law Projects Center was indeed registered as an United nations accredited NGO it is true. However, closed meetings of this sort meant attendance was strictly limited to head ambassadors of valid United Nations member state missions and non governmental organizations possessing observer status were not allowed.

Unto present, I’ve yet understood whereby I gained entrance into this privy closed meeting consisting of only United Nations ambassadors, but I did. Walking to the basement floor of the United Nations building that day, I merely wore a visitors badge given to me at the front desk in no manner indicating that I was an ambassador of a United Nations mission; least of all the Bosnia mission as required for entrance. Totally unaware I didn’t possess necessary credentials to enter the meeting, I walked confidently towards the entrance door and past the guard stationed outside it. The guard never bothering to examine the type of badge I wore around my neck simply said “good day Madame� and urged me into the meeting; it was just about time to begin.

I immediately sensed something wrong once through the door past the guard. First, I was uncertain where to sit. Everyone else had a sign in front of their seat stating their country of origin. The Israeli ambassador sat in front of the Israel sign, the Spanish lady sat in front of the seat indicating she represented, Spain etc..

I looked fervently around the room seeing no seats indicating seats for United Nations observers anywhere. The last thing I wanted to do was to embarrass myself by taking the seat of an important ambassador; I noticed a couple of men seeming from some African state grabbing some meeting paperwork nearby so I inquired of them. I told them I was a newbie and inquired where to sit and what I should do. With heavy African accents one of them said, “just grab a bunch of these papers, sit there and look like you are busy,� so I did. In fact, I grabbed as many extra copies as I could without looking conspicuous when noticing another peculiarity.

The meeting papers indicated they were for restricted for the eyes of state mission heads’ only (chief ambassadors of countries) and allowing other persons and/or United Nations employees to view them was a punishable offense. Uncertain what to do, and with the meeting beginning, I merely sat there stunned. My seat and the one the African gentleman next to me took seemed extras because they neglected having any indication regarding country origin in front of them on the table; I felt safe.

As totally immersed and interesting as I found the topics, the African ambassador seated found boring. I say this owing to noticing during the entire meeting he was merely doodling nonsensical pictures on some legal pad. I think that no one took more notes that day than me. I was especially interested in the interstate bickering about financing the international criminal court should and when it came about. Spain was particularly forceful in vocalizing its opinion that the countries giving the most monetary contributions to the court itself ought have more power over both its staffing and its innocent and guilty verdicts as well as judges appointed. My suspicions’ equally shared by scholars such as Noam Chomsky and former attorney general, Ramsey Clark were now fully justifiably confirmed. The court itself was a great travesty of justice and I was actually witnessing quarrels between countries insofar as controlling the courts judges and verdicts based on financial contributions rather than on law and true international justice.

The most shocking point of the meeting for me was when the Israeli ambassador admitted openly to the other attendees that Israel was indifferent to war crimes, crimes against humanity and would in no manner support any international structure limiting its’ ability for practicing war and peace against any other state and/or party it considered a threat to its national interest. The ambassador representing the United States that day strongly and equally explicitly backed the Israeli position making clear American attendance was more for information gathering purposes and show than true concern for international law, world peace and social justice. When the meeting ended I slipped quickly out the front entrance of the United Nations; notes and papers in hand; I would read them in detail later that evening.

It must have amazed Darko upon returning from Serbia I actually gained entrance to the ICC preparatory closed meeting because within a week he invited me to the city to attend another important meeting at the United Nations comprised of diplomats from some very selective and prestigious NATO member states. I don’t recall the date but by his return fully I understood the definition of a closed meeting. Upon approaching the meeting door I became at once cognizant the meeting stated “closed meeting,� on the door. I did my best to point this fact out to Darko who told me to go in with him anyway; we did. Darko obviously thought because I gained entrance to the ICC meeting I ought not have in his absence, perhaps if I were with him, he covertly could gain access this closed NATO meeting; no dice. Upon entering the room, immediately some important looking man called him over and diplomatically informed him that “Serbia was not invited.� Darko pointed to me explaining that he was with the American lady but he was asked politely to leave; I followed him out the door embarrassed.

The following year was mundane. Filled with activities like shuttling back and forth to FDU for graduate school, fund raising for the Law Projects Center and co-authoring two book with Darko. The fateful day of 9/11 and the attacks by Al-Qaeda on the World Trade Center Towers in New York City changed my venue forever. Post 9/11 Darko became a man on a personal mission seemingly unrelated to the Bosnian mission itself.
He told me it was the utmost importance to publicize the alleged fact that the head ambassador of the Bosnian mission was in his estimation involved with Al-Qaeda. Darko had a seemingly ton of secret documentary evidence emanating from the ministry of internal affairs in Belgrade and Bosnia seeming true bolstering his allegations in my eyes then.

Asking me to fervently work on editing a book on which topic was meant for exposing the head ambassador of the Bosnian mission at that time; I acceded. The publication was later published by the Repubika Srpska information agency in Bosnia. The Serbian government in the Republika Srpska in Bosnia then was seriously pressing Darko for a fast publication so we stayed up many nights over his apartment in Forest Hills, New York working to do so. The book was entitled, �The Bosnia Model of Al-Qaeda Terrorism. It can probably still be found and read online. Last time I checked it was posted on the website: http://www.analyst-network.com/profile.php?user_id=240.

Darko always told me I possessed full rights to this and other publications we worked on together. Although I edited and co-authoring the Al-Qaeda work, a few years back I noticed Darko removed my name on the inner front cover page as editor replacing it with the name of a Serbian editor. When questioned about it Darko told me he kept my name from being published because of the death threats and dangers to my life that he himself encountered because of its publication. I do vividly remember Darko receiving a great many death threats and threats towards his wife at the time, Bojana, so it is possible he was telling me the truth.

Even prior completing our work on the Al-Qaeda book together Darko was obsessed with manifesting the Bosnian Chief ambassador at the time as a terrorist. At the time I had no reason to doubt Darko’s word and assisted him in rabidly writing an open letter to all the United Nations member state missions exposing him as such. I surmise this is when Darko’s job at the United Nations as First Secretary of the Bosnian mission became jeopardized.

Today I surmise Darko’s employment at the United Nations genuinely became compromised owing not only to the inter-ethnic conflicts existing between him and the head ambassador then, a proud Muslim man, but also owing to the fact he forged birth certificates to acquire his position in the first place later becoming a social fact from the interior ministry in Bosnia. It was an emotional shock when Darko informed me a by summer 2001 that he lost his job and he and Bojana had to immediately return to Belgrade to work out the matter in court. This was also a great emotional blow to me also owing to the fact that I always possessed a crush on Darko and he knew it. This was a social fact I never publicly admitted previously to writing this book. I once even asked Darko if he wanted to have an affair with me but he declined stating he would never be unfaithful to his beautiful wife, Bojana. This left me in an extreme morally uncomfortable position because Bojana was my best friend. I continually told myself being attracted to her husband Darko was a non-option. Working so closely with him on an almost daily basis however made my attraction to him difficult to overcome.

I was also engaged to Professor Arnold Stark at the time and wore the ten thousand diamond ring he bought me on my finger. Arnold became increasingly jealous of Darko in time and eventually forbid me to work with him altogether. Notwithstanding, I continued working with Darko against Arnold’s wishes. This coupled with my trip to Serbia and Montenegro in 2002 eventually led to my breakup with Professor Stark and after almost an entire decade, my relationship with Arnold never fully recovered.

Darko tried keeping his job in diplomatic capacity at he UN as long as possible but the bipolar friction and hate existing between himself and the chief ambassador at the mission proved too much. The chief ambassador in contact with the Bosnian government at the time in Sarajevo eventually had Darko dismissed as first secretary of the mission. To the best of my recollection Darko was no longer receiving a monthly salary from Sarajevo by spring or summer 2002 (approximately).

I often came visiting Darko and Bojana’s apartment in Manhattan then situated on a side street within walking distance from the UN to help them out financially by buying them inexpensive dinners and such in Manhattan and chauffeuring them around (they did not own a car for the majority of their stay in the States).

In July 2002 as I remember the three of us spent many memorable moments going to the beaches outside the city and just spending time talking etc.. At the time and owing to my being in graduate school at FDU, I had plenty of extra money to burn owing my taking the maximum GSL student loans totaling about twenty thousand dollars a semester. Then one day that summer Darko informed me he and Bojana were only awaiting the Bosnian government to wire them a sum of five thousand dollars to pay off their American bills, last month rent and they would make a hasty exit back to Belgrade permanently. I was emotionally crushed.

Desperate not to lose contact with Darko because of my personal feelings towards him, I told him my summer classes at FDU were about to end August 2002 and although the fall semester was about to begin, I wanted to visit him in Serbia as soon as possible. Soon for me meant as soon as I received a check from the United States government for the total of that semesters’ student loan money in the amount of about ten thousand dollars.

Darko, hesitant at first soon gave in to my constant petitions to visit him. The day I brought them both to JFK to return to Serbia permanently, Bojana whispered something in Darko’s ear as we hugged saying our goodbyes all three of trying to hold back tears of parting and Darko looking me in the eye said something to the effect, “Jill, don’t worry as soon as you can afford it call me and we’ll arrange your visit.� Darko never could stand to see me cry which on many occasion I did owing to the loss of my two children and other personal challenges in my life. They turned and boarded their plane to Belgrade as I drove back to New Jersey. Driving home I felt an odd combination of extreme sadness at the loss of my two best friends mixed with the cheerful prospect I would shortly be boarding a plane myself destined for Serbia and Montenegro by mid August 2002 when my student loan check arrived. Upon arriving home I immediately began making all necessary arrangements for my forthcoming trip.

The day following Darko ‘s departure, I bought a great many prepaid phone cards for the purpose of calling him owing to both my missing him and also my primarily wanting to began making all necessary arrangements facilitating my forthcoming visit from JFK to Beograd. I had countless questions such as: how much money will I need, how will I obtain a VISA being an American citizen with all the US State Department warnings against US citizenry traveling to the region, etc., etc., etc.. I had already obtained a valid United States passport many years ago which I always carried with me. I’ve always held the strong opinion that having a valid passport with you at all times is just a good idea. It enables one the necessary freedom to go to the airport and catch a plane going anywhere at anytime.

Darko told me that I need not worry about all the complicated VISA requirements listed on Serbian government website required of other Americans that he would handle everything. I was told merely to bring with me about five thousand United States dollars in cash spending money and it was a done deal. I went to buy some new suitcases and clothes for my trip in Wayne, New Jersey during the first two weeks in August 2002 in preparation. Packing was always a problem for me as Darko can attest to owing to my medically diagnosed attention deficit disorder. I had a difficult time deciding what to bring, so I tried to bring everything I thought I needed. The day of my departure my suitcases weighed way over the weight limit restrictions indicated by the airline.

Getting to JFK for departure in mid August 2002 proved to be an almost insurmountable task in and of itself owing to my heavy luggage and everyone I asked to drop me at the airport that day had strongly held views against my going. Arnold Stark declined to bring me owing to his personal jealousies insofar as Darko and everyone else had one or another excuse rooted in the anti-American sentiment in Serbia at that time and danger involved.
Undeterred, I finally convinced Archbishop John LoBue, my priest and confessor at the Holy Name Orthodox Christian Church in West Milford, New Jersey to take me as far as the Port Authority in Manhattan; from there I took a bus to JFK managing myself.

Post 9/11, JFK was supposedly safe beyond reproach insofar as security; this proved untrue. I had not traveled outside America in many years so I was unfamiliar with the new travel restrictions on such items as nail scissors etc., being illegal to bring onboard flights and carried several very sharp ones right passed JFK security inspection inside my purse on board out of my own ignorance of new flight rules. It was not until I arrived on my stopover in Paris, France that I was boarding onto a JAT (Yugoslav Air Travel) flight for Belgrade that the security officer of JAT told me that he had to confiscate the aforementioned items owing to new security precautions implemented post 9/11.

I informed him upon boarding my initial flight at JFK in New York, the security guards at the gate allowed me to board my flight to Paris carrying them in my purse. The JAT security employee merely shook his head in amazement mentioning something insofar as his seriously questioning American security in general stating that Jugosalv Air Travel obviously took airline and passenger security much more seriously.

I loved flying JAT! Not only was I completely satisfied the flight from Paris to Belgrade was many times more secure since JAT searched boarding passengers more thoroughly than JFK, the hospitality, food and drink was excellent. I say this owing to my being a well seasoned traveler having previously visited places such as Indonesia, Thailand and Hong Kong, etc.. It was extremely laid back on the flight. People moved around switching seats and chatting with good friends and the food was the best! My favorite Serbian food and drink were served and all airline employees shoed me the highest level of hospitality. I was extremely pleased with the professionalism and service on JAT I later began an online blog about it on Yahoo360.

Upon my flight arriving in Beograd, all passengers left the plane in the usual manner except Serbian citizens were shuffled through customs quickly merely showing their passport. All others including myself were asked to relinquish their passports and told to wait an unspecified amount of time in a holding area at the airport. An airport security officer went around confiscating our passports afterward leaving us merely standing there not knowing what to expect next. No other announcements were made; I did the only thing possible I relinquished my passport to the Serbian custom official along with the other western Europeans and/or Americans (if there were any) which I surmised like myself were attempting to enter Serbia from countries that were NATO allies in the Kosovo war against Slobodan Milosevic in 1999. There must have been about twenty persons with me just waiting.

All types of nagging thoughts plagued me such as “perhaps my friends were correct that I ought not have taken this trip…was it really too dangerous to travel to Serbia with all the anti-American sentiment and what would happen if Serbian customs decided I was an American spy, kept my passport and I ended in some unknown jail and/or murdered….who would find me…what could I do about it etc., etc., etc..�

It seemed nearly an hour passed; me and the others were still standing there waiting. I didn’t want to seem scared or overly curious by asking either Serbian custom officials or anyone else waiting with me anything as to not cause unnecessary attention to myself. I also kept checking my watch wondering if Darko knew I was here waiting. I had hoped with his government connections he would at least inquire about my arrival since he told me he would pick me up. I drew comfort from the fact Darko was always very punctual picking up and bringing himself and others to airports. On numerous occasions I gave him and others rides to and from them. These and other thoughts plagued me when suddenly I heard a voice on the loud speaker call my name, Jill Starr, asking me to go to a customs area to claim my passport. I was the first person called so I don’t know what happened to the others standing there still waiting. I hurriedly went to obtain my passport and was told that I cleared; the guard pointed the direction for me to go claim my luggage. You have no idea what a relief that was!

I took in my new surroundings pleased that I made it into the country successfully. As a young child my father took me with him traveling the world when he was an active nuclear engineering consultant for Chas T Main, USAID and the IMF. I had been in Indonesia during the turmoil in East Timor so I was used to being in war zones surrounded by soldiers with guns. I was presently older, but still I found such travel extremely exciting more than dangerous and looked forward to enjoying the rest of my vacation with Darko and Bojana.

Making it to the baggage claim area successfully I was relieved seeing Darko standing their waiting for me. I was not fluent in Serbian and didn‘t want to publicize it by asking people questions in English manifesting I was American. I hurried to him giving him a large hug.

I was so glad to see Darko. I noticed upon my arrival at the Belgrade airport that there were many female police officers equipped with guns wearing short mini skirts and extremely high heels. I asked Darko how they apprehended criminals in such high heels and he replied smirking that they don’t have to run, they merely shot those not halting in the back and that stopped them.

Like a dream come true, there I was in Beograd Serbia against all odds and complaints from my friends. Darko helped me get my luggage to his friend’s vehicle telling me we could talk about everything I had to say later because we had to hurry. Darko‘s friend, a German man living in Serbia for years and an important military employee of the Serbian government in a grayish older large SUV vehicle with what seemed a special license plate was impatiently waiting at the front gate of the airport for us. Darko’s friend did not speak fluent English but he did speak fluent German and Serbian. Darko told him to help lift my luggage into the trunk in Serbian and he did. Darko always liked to brag and as usual he introduced me to his friend giving me the details of his being an important man in the Serbian military etc.. We went straight from the Beograd airport to the home of Bojana’s family in the suburbs of Belgrade and all became reacquainted.

Bojana and I hugged; she introduced me to her family (father, mother and brother who was a high school student in Beograd).
Afterward, Darko showed me the room upstairs where I would sleep which was actually Bojana’s room also informing me of our three week itinerary; he had it all planned out. Darko told me we would all spend the night over Bojana’s house, the next day sleep at his apartment outside Beograd and later explained the next day we would stop at his father’s family’s house for dinner and leave from there making our way into Montenegro for a ten day vacation staying at his friend’s resort on Budva’s seaside coast. Along the way Darko told me he would give me the best tour I could ask for and he did. He showed me military installations and one of my favorite stops was the NATO bombed Chinese embassy which I stood in front of only several yards from.

My night at Bojana’s residence was wonderful. I was never showed as much love and hospitality as I did from her family. Although it was late in the evening (about 11pm Serbian time) when we arrived, Bojana’s mother, a wonderful woman, treated me as her own daughter. She insisted that Darko, Bojana and I enjoy what seemed a 10 course home cooked meal. She was still cooking while she served us a variety of cooked steaks, vegetables and pastries. And like many Italian families she insisted I tried and ate everything. To top the night off before bed Bojana and her father performed an accordion duet live in the kitchen for me. Apparently, Bojana and her father were professional accordion players and Bojana explained that her father’s employment consisted of playing nightly in a local bar. Thereafter, we went to bed with full stomachs.

The next morning we all enjoyed an equally exquisite breakfast. Bojana’s family had livestock in the backyard and her mother cooked us a fresh eggs and steak for breakfast like never before experienced. We said our parting goodbyes and left for Darko’s apartment in the hills of Beograd. We brought my suitcases in and upon entering I noticed there were lots of stray dogs around the apartment entrance. One in particular was very cute and Darko explained that the various residents fed it because it was so adorable. I found it interesting that so many old men were just hanging about the entrance to the apartment building drinking and just sitting there with seemingly nothing to do. They remained there throughout my entire trip.

Even when Ratko Mladic came to see me on my final day in Serbia in full military regalia giving me a parting gift (a book he inscribed to me entitled Serbija) while Darko took pictures of Mladic with his arm around me, the men remained there merely looking like old bums. Retrospectively, I wonder if they weren’t some watchmen and/or guards. Unto this day I always wondered what Darko did with those photos.

I was surprised what a very large apartment Darko owned. He showed me into his guest room and I unpacked my suitcases in just enough time to inform me I was to consolidate all my truly necessary items for Montenegro into one small bag that would reasonably fit into his trunk in the morning because he needed enough room for his and Bojana’s luggage also. He laughed at all the things I brought with me to Beograd telling me that I had no idea how to pack.

By the time I was done with that task Darko told me it was time to go meet some friends at a local café for coffee. It was late summer and the outside café’s in Beograd were the best ! We met up with a few friends in some restaurant in Beograd; there was about five of us sitting there just chatting and drinking coffee when I noticed an older gentleman sitting a few seats down with feathered salt and pepper colored hair not saying much except for an occasional laugh and nod at us. I wondered wherefore Darko a man about thirty would associate with such an older person, as for me being several years older than Darko, I thought to myself, what a cute guy. Then upon closer inspection, I realized it was doctor Radovan Karadzic. I knew he was a psychiatrist. By no means was this to be our last meeting. Throughout the time I spent in Serbia Darko met with Karadzic on many occasions in Beograd. The meetings were usually brief; only to exchange oral information and/or a few papers with Darko and whisper something or other in Darko‘s ear. He looks as the news media portrays him dressed in his gray wrinkled suit and tie and salt and pepper colored hair. He was a perfect gentleman all times I met him with Darko. After finishing our coffee, Darko said we ought leave and get a good nights rest because we had to leave early the next day for Montenegro.

The next morning we all got into Darko’s blue Audi (car) and left for his Father’s house. I remember arguing with Darko about wanting to bring lots of luggage with me and he replied I didn’t need all that stuff and I could only bring one normal sized bag with me and I had to leave the rest of my things at his apartment; I did. On the way to his father’s, Darko made a few important stops for the purpose of giving me the grand tour. We only stopped briefly at some military installations; we didn’t get out of the car. We drove up to the gates and Darko pointed out, “look Jill, this is an important military facility.� Darko always sarcastically smirked as he pointed out these places to me. The only place we got out was in front of the bombed out Chinese embassy in Beograd. There were Serbian military officers in front of the embassy. I was amazed owing to I always had thought bombed out buildings were totally demolished. But standing in front of the Chinese embassy that was bombed by the NATO in 1999 taught me the definition of a “smart bomb.�

Only the portion of the building hosting the embassy employees on the upper level of the building itself was demolished and in particular the window where the Chinese embassy officials worked. I could see in the window and I even got a sad glimpse of the Victorian styled chair sitting there empty in the bombed out window. I wondered who used to sit there and if they were dead or alive. No other parts of the building was seriously damaged. There were even flowers and trees still growing untouched in front of the building. I strongly believe that NATO knew exactly what they aimed at when they bombed the building.

I brought a digital camera with me on my trip but upon returning to the United States, all the film Darko claimed to snap for me was returned by my local film developer as blank. I wondered if Darko told me the truth about snapping photos for me at all. Throughout my trip he insisted on taking all the photos I wanted claiming I take poor pictures. It since crossed my mind he may have removed the film from my camera prior my departing Serbia so I could not take it back with me. One thing I am sure of is both Darko and Bojana refused having any photos taken of them throughout my entire stay.

After leaving the scene at the Chinese embassy, we made our way to the home of Darko’s father driving through a beautiful park not dissimilar to Central Park in Manhattan along the way. I can’t be certain what park it was because I didn’t know the geographical area; we soon arrived at our destination. Darko’s father lived in the most incredibly beautiful green hills in an area of Serbia existing somewhere between Beograd and Montenegro. Immediately upon entering and meeting his father, stepmother and grandmother who recently passed away, I felt part of the family. Although his family did not speak English, Darko and Bojana translated for me.

Darko’s grandmother was an extraordinarily warm and wise woman in whose presence I felt comfortable and happy the entire time. Before dinner there was the customary libation of grappa (a Serbian hard liquor of incredible potency). If only I could find grappa here in America. After another dinner that would give Manhattan’s top chefs a run for their money, Darko brought me upstairs into a guest room to take a nap.

I told him I was not tired but he insisted I nap saying we would be driving all night before reaching Montenegro and I need my rest. I must have slept an hour before he awakened me to say our parting goodbyes and begin our journey. I was extremely excited; Darko promised me a three week Adriatic holiday allowing me swimming privileges at every beach from Hercegovni to an area he said was only ten meters from Kosovo’s border. We couldn’t go into Kosovo Darko said because it was too dangerous. I knew Darko had been shot several times and almost killed in Kosovo previously so I didn’t push the issue. As a former lifeguard and avid swimmer, I couldn‘t wait for my vacation to start and Darko delivered it to me as promised.

The onset of our journey began at sunset; still adjusting to the time zone differential I dozed off in Darko’s backseat; for how long I’m uncertain. I dozed on and off until sunrise when we reached the Montenegrin border. I mean, there wasn’t much to see driving in the dark cover of night. The wider well lit highway we initially set out upon gradually narrowed as the highway lights became fewer. Eventually there were no highway lights at all. My body continuously shifted from one side of Darko’s backseat to the other making sleep difficult.
It was obvious the road we traversed was analogous to Pacific Coast Highway in California driving through Big Sur. It was mountainous, dangerously ridden with hairpin turns and no guardrails. In Montenegro, inexperienced travelers could almost mistake the scenery for Big Sur with the beautiful blue Adriatic sea hugging the bottoms of the cliffs we not so cautiously traveled. I asked Darko to slow down because he was driving like speed racer. He replied not to worry explaining he could drive these roads blindfolded he knew them well. I thought to myself, better safe than sorry buddy. It is a good thing I had some prescription Xanax with me, I popped one, maybe two just to relax while simultaneously trying to hide this act from Darko since he hated drugs in general. He especially hated my taking the prescription medications my doctor gave me saying I didn’t need them, they were addicting and poison. He also strongly disdained cigarettes; Bojana smoked covertly.

The sun was just rising when Darko awakened me excitedly pointing out the tunnel we were driving through. I think he said at the other end we’d be entering Montenegro. Driving to the Budva Riviera in Montenegro we drove through some similar tunnels; the scenery was unbelievably breathtaking. There is no other place in the world I’d rather be than in Budva Montenegro and I recommend everyone vacation there. We were making our way to a seaside resort a friend of Darko owned. Still driving like speed racer around the hairpin turns and mountainous cliffs compromising the road, we finally arrived at our destination safely. I admit Darko is an excellent driver; his driving is reminiscent of agent 007 in James Bond movies.

Because of the Kosovo war, there was not one functional ATM in either in Serbia and Montenegro. To be safe I split the five thousand dollars we had between Darko and I. I held onto half and he the other. One of my favorite stories I tell people of my trip is how I swam with my money throughout the trip; it made me feel secure always keeping some cash on me at all times; even when I was swimming a quarter mile out in the Adriatic sea. Darko told me not to; I did anyway.

Owing to that, the cash I held was often wet. One particular time we went to a bank in Montenegro. The banks there are so remarkably careful of counterfeiting, they refused exchanging my United States dollars for Euros because my money was wet; the three of us returned to the hotel using my blow dryer to evaporate the dollar bills until dried. The three of us henceforth joked about this saying we laundered the money.

Upon arriving at the resort, Darko introduced me to his friend and we worked out the financial gratuities for our stay. We paid him eight hundred United States dollars for ten days; meals included. Unlike hotels in America, meals meant an extremely large home cooked breakfast consisting of large varieties of meat, coffee and juice. Lunch and dinner consisted of many course meals where main dishes consisted of either freshly caught seafood or meat. Our accommodation consisted of two medium sized rooms with separate entrances; one for myself and another for Darko and Bojana. To reach the beach we only needed to walk across the street and down a small path; one could see Italy at the other end of the horizon on a clear day. I was ecstatic loving to swim. Since Bojana didn’t swim, Darko couldn’t always accompany me to the beach so I‘d just walk to it myself for periodic swims throughout the day; August was a very hot month. Of any country I’ve visited, Serbia and Montenegro wins my top prize for fun, food, beauty and hospitality. Everyone is friendly, warm, the atmosphere is relaxed and laid back and most persons speak some English owing to children learning English as a second language in school at a young age. Unfortunately, American school children do not grow up learning another language other than native English which leaves them I feel at an intellectual disadvantage.

Each day Darko took us to another beach for a day enjoying food, drink, music, perhaps some shopping and primarily, swimming. As long as I could swim for hours each day I was happy. By the time nighttime rolled in all of us were so tired each day we usually had dinner and retired early, except for one night. This just happened to be the one night of my entire vacation I was overly exhausted wanting to retire early at any cost. Inversely, this was the one evening both Darko and Bojana incredibly excited informed me to take a shower, dress and get ready for a big surprise.

When I asked Darko what this surprise was and its great importance being I was so tired; he merely insisted I go get ready for it. Darko was always very bossy in my estimation constantly telling us when to sleep, awakening Bojana and I up early, limiting our time before breakfast for dressing, blow drying our hair etc. which the two of us always complained about privately to each other. I always accepted this as part of his personality but this night it annoyed me to no end; I simply wanted sleep, surprise or not. As usual I gave into to Darko’s demands by hurrying to my room, showering, changing, and preparing myself for a night out. If you’re a woman, you understand when you have a crush on someone as I did Darko, you usually give into his demands easily; so I did.

Upon changing, Dark and Bojana were waving me to hurry to the car; exhausted I got in and slammed the door. Less than ten minutes up the pitch black road Darko pulled the car over and we got out. Darko and Bojana said, “Hurry Jill look down there.� At the bottom of the cliffs was the most beautiful city of lights I’ve ever seen. Darko said proudly, “this is Budva Jill, that‘s where we are going.� It was many times more beautiful that Paris or Manhattan at night and situated in a valley about a mile and a half wide forcing the Montenegrin peninsula farther out. It was a remarkably amazing sight, Budva itself being lit up with a wide variety of bright lights surrounded by an aura of pitch black. By this time Bojana started complaining to Darko to move his car in more because someone may come around the sharp turn in the darkness sideswiping it. Darko never worried much about illegal parking or his speed limit owing to whenever getting pulled over, he just made manifest to the officer his huge governmental badge and they let him go; the badge was at least three times larger than the usual American police officer badge and was gold in color.

Darko became annoyed with Bojana’s complaints so we returned to the car, got in and descended about five minutes down the treacherously dark road into Budva and parked. I couldn’t believe it! It was like a dream, We walked down around Budva, Darko pointing out everything.

We stopped to have a drink at one of the many outdoor bar/café’s and listened to the live entertainment while we sipped our drinks. Then I went to buy another bathing suit at a small shop when Darko told me to follow him and Bojana into the most amazing bar I’ve ever seen, anywhere in the world. The bar itself was actually a small island rocky island; to reach it one had to walk underground maybe a little less than one quarter mile. Upon entering the bar it had many levels; all outside surrounded by the roaring nighttime surf of the sea and live entertainment. I saw a few people illegally swimming and asked Darko if I could swim there too. He informed me the swimming was closed for the evening. We ordered drinks and sat there chilling for a while. On the walk back Darko showed me all the gambling casinos along the Riviera. It looked like anyone could get whatever they wanted in Budva if they had the correct amount of money with them. Montenegro was to me akin to a luxurious playground for the ultra rich, famous as well as infamous. We then walked back via way of the tunnel, stopped at a small outdoor restaurant all ordering a type of delicious pancake we enjoyed by dipping it in chocolate syrup and drove back to the hotel to get some rest.

The next day Darko took merely us to another gorgeous beach. It was reminiscent of Greece. The water was sapphire blue, clear and warm. The beach itself was not large, but completely hidden by huge rocky cliffs. The three of us took a kind of small craft about a quarter of a mile out into the Adriatic; Darko and I jumped in for a swim. Bojana was partially nude sunbathing at the time on the boat and since she was unable to swim, Darko teased her by stealing her clothes, pretending not to give them back to her. She immediately became upset demanding Darko return her clothes; Darko soon complied with her demands. Thereafter, we ended the day with lunch and drinks. The following day was one of my vacation high points. We visited the Ostrog monastery.

Driving to the Ostrog monastery was long, hot and boring. It lied somewhere deep beyond the Montenegrin coastline inland. We drove a long windy road without even so much as a store on it. After a couple of hours, Darko stopped for lunch at the only restaurant I noticed the entire trip. You’d think it would be small being situated in the middle of what I considered, “nowhere.� However, this was not the case.

There was actually a long line and tons of people there having lunch. I could only imagine like us they were on their way to visit Ostrog. The restaurant itself was classy and I can only liken it to seeing a luxurious restaurant in the middle of the Mohave desert. While I was visiting Ostrog monastery in Montenegro, Darko introduced me to a Serbian priest asking me if I wanted confession. The man looked almost verbatim to Karadzic in his monks getup. I mean the way the latest news photos of Karadzic in his monk getup looks. I only became cognizant of this recently since the photos of him since his arrest have been made publicly manifest. In particular I remember the priest’s large darker curl on the top of this priest’s head like in the recent Karadzic photos; I wondered who would make their monks hair like that. This priest blessed me and told Darko in Serbian he could not hear my confession owing to his not understanding English well. He gave me a gift, a book about the monastery itself which I gave to Archbishop John LoBue in West Milford (my priest).

While visiting Ostrog, we venerated the holy relics leaving an offering of either food or money at the door leading to the holy relics; I can’t remember which now. Leaving, we looked around the gift shop, had coffee at the small Ostrog monastery café and Darko gave me a tour where the monks sleep and shower. Then we made the long drive back to the hotel. We had the usual dinner at which time Bojana was overcome with a terrible toothache. I told her I’d pay for the filling tomorrow; Darko knew a dentist 10 meter from Kosovo‘s border. Tomorrow we‘d swim there and have Bojana‘s tooth looked at. The town we went to the next day possessed an ethnic Albanian majority and organized crime was everywhere.

Before retiring for the evening I went for a small walk around the corner from the hotel to buy some snacks; there was a small store there. I never felt endangered at any time by anyone. During my stay in Montenegro I walked to the store myself almost daily buying drinks and other items I could enjoy privately in my room at night. I never noticed previously to that evening’s walk just how many persons actually were vacationing from Western Europe in Budva the fall 2002 like me.

After promenading to the store, upon returning to the hotel, a German man sitting outside the hotel and speaking in broken English introduced himself. When I told him that I was from New Jersey in the United States he became extremely interested and warmly said he is pleased I was able to enjoy the area. I replied, “I was tired and needed to retire.� Saying he understood he returned to his card game.

We had the usual dinner at which time Bojana was overcome with a terrible toothache. I told her I’d pay for the filling tomorrow; Darko knew a dentist ten meters from Kosovo‘s border. Tomorrow we‘d swim there and have Bojana‘s tooth looked at. The town we went to the next day possessed an ethnic Albanian majority and organized crime was everywhere.

We awoke early as to get Bojana to the dentist. This is actually where the Montenegrin bank had refused to exchange our money for Euros. Managing cash was difficult in Serbia and Montenegro owing to that the national currency in Serbia was still dinars and in Montenegro it was Euros. Most businessman preferred either Euros or American dollars, but one never knew which.

Upon parking, Darko led the way down the busy street towards the dentist who I remember being an ethnic Albanian man. Apparently, they visited this dentist previously and he was extremely friendly. Not at any time did any ethnic Albanians cause me, Darko or Bojana any problems because I was American and they were Serb. The dentist was going to take a while and since the bank would not exchange our American dollars for Euros, we could buy neither lunch nor anything else and we all possessed a ravenous hunger for lunch.

Ignoring Darko’s warnings not to go wondering myself, I left the dentist office under the pretense of going for a walk while Bojana had her dental work completed. Before Darko could catch me I was gone. I walked up the main street about one mile and began asking people in English where I could exchange United States currency for Euros. I came upon a well dressed ethnic Albanian high school student, a girl speaking perfect English who told me to walk up the street about another half mile and when I see men selling the cigarettes outside on a bridge table, ask them to do the deed; I did.

The girl asked me about America saying her greatest wish was to study in New York City one day. When I told her about my experience at the New School for Social Research, being dismissed for my anti NATO views on the Kosovo war she replied to me, “maybe she was wrong about wanting to study in Manhattan.�

I made my way to the table with about five ethnic Albanian men hanging about selling cigarettes and asked them in English if they could exchange money for me; they did. They were definitely organized crime. They took my wet cash, examined the bills, one man walked into an apartment building with my cash while I merely waited. He didn‘t rob me and returned with my Euros. Surprisingly, I found everyone in both Serbia and Montenegro very honorable in their business dealings; even if those dealings are organized crime.

Upon receiving my Euros from the men, I walked away back to see if Bojana was through with the dentist; she was. I excitedly told Darko that I had successfully managed to exchange American dollars for Euros thinking he’d be pleased with me; he wasn’t. Darko was always very protective of me. Instead of commending me he immediately got very angry; scolding me he said exchanging money illegally in the streets of Montenegro was both illegal and dangerous. You can’t change the past so I diplomatically apologized and Darko soon forgot his anger I lieu of the fact that now we all could have lunch. Afterward, Darko brought us to a beautiful beach nearby. The majority of the sunbathers were ethnic Albanian and again no one harassed us based on our ethnicity. I tried pushing Darko into driving into Kosovo but he flatly refused. I found it interesting that the international news at this time was reporting that there were hundreds of thousands of homeless ethnic Albanians being ethnically cleansed to Albania, I did not see one ethnic Albanian or Roma homeless on the streets anywhere. All seemed normal only ten meters from the Kosovo border. After a day of swimming and partially nude sunbathing, we returned to the hotel.

Insofar as sequence of events, at this junction in time it was the last few days I spent in Montenegro; it’s difficult now to remember the exact timeline of events. In other words, I remember visiting Old Town and Podgorica also in Montenegro but uncertain of which locations we visited first. During the last two days, Darko took me one day to Old Town in Montenegro for dinner; there we greatly enjoyed an expensive seafood meal after which we walked around. Darko got a parking ticket that night in Old Town and greatly complained about its five dollar fee; for some, five dollars is equal to an entire week pay in Serbia. I think I offered him the five dollars for the ticket feeling guilty because it was only for my benefit he parked there at all. Darko wanted to show me Old Town; he already knew what the beautiful cobble stone streets looked like.

We also went to the Montenegrin capital, Podgorica. I really don’t remember much of Podgorica except for walking around the streets one night. Since we didn’t swim there so it wasn’t a high point for me. When our ten day stay in Montenegro was finished we all packed and returned the way we came in Darko’s car. The day before we left, Darko’s car required maintenance. We didn’t have enough cash on hand left to pay for the needed repairs so I called Arnold Stark, my fiancée in the states, asking him to please wire us five hundred dollars cash to Montenegro; he did. This is a fact that Arnold himself can verify being that he alone possesses the charge card receipt for wiring us the money through Western Union to a town not far from Budva. With Darko’s car repairs complete, we returned home for Beograd.

On the way back to Beograd we made two more important stops.

Kridel Lawfirm (Clifton, New Jersey) Bribes Andre Chapman (JIll's Ex-Husband) & Brant Snell for False Statements Against Her/COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS: WHEREBY MLADIC & KARADZIC TREATED ME WEST MILFORD DETECTIVES HARRY SHORTWAY & PETER VAN GILST

I ask the New Jersey attorney general to disbar:
Kridel Law Group in Clifton, New Jersey
Contact Information
Phone: 973-470-0800
Fax: 973-472-1909

I originally requested the lawfirm be disbarred from practicing law in the state of New Jersey back when I was attending William Paterson College in New Jersey prior to 1997.

http://eu4uyuedje.blogspot.com/ (Original Source Website Blog)

It is public information any national news media group in America can prove beyond any doubt, by merely asking for it at the local Pompton Lakes New Jersey Court Clerk:

1) James A. Kridel Esq., his lawfirm, the West Milford Prosecutor (at that time between 1991-1997), my former landlord from whom I rented an apartment from, Brant Snell, his brother (joint owner of Snell’s property in Bloomingdale NJ, along with Harry Shortway and the West Milford Police Force, committed bribery, conspired to commit extortion with malicious intent against me, and also committed physical acts of terroristic threats against me at the Snell’s residence I rented.

2) This occurred when the West Milford police responded to a phone call emanating from Brant Snell and arrived outside my apartment. I had also called them simultaneously because Brant Snell and his brother were threatening me all day attempting to get me to leave my apartment; neither men filed legal eviction procedings agsainst me.

4) Sgt, Laughlin and co-conspiritors arrived on the scene proceding to cut my phone line at the Snell’s, then proceeding to threaten me outside my apartment. The police on the scene included red haired Sgt. Laughlin formerly beating my head against his squad car in West Milford NJ when taking custody of my two children from me giving custody to my ex husband, Andre Chapman.

All men involved i nthis incident malicously intended endangering my life, reputation and well being; they sucessed. They also succeeded causing irreparable and permanant emotional harm forever to my two children now adults; my son currently having a son of his own.

Both men, my ex-husband Andre Chapman along with former landlord Brant Snell admitted their guilt openly in Pompton Lakes Court before the presiding judge then.

Andre Chapman, my ex husband admitted committing this vile crime against me and my two children to gain continunal custody rights over my two children at that time, and, Brant Snell for wanting to evict me from my apartment because I would not have sex with him when I was a student at that time when I rented from him. And, owing to my police report I filed stating the truth: that he illegally entered my upstairs apartment from his house attempting on numerous occasion to have sexual relations with me and abuse me against my will through intimidation. Brant Snell also refused to allow me to lock my upstairs apartment and entered at his own will for several nights.

Harry Shortway told me he strongly suspected Brant Snell and his friend from Vernon NJ having to do with the Vernon New Jersey rapist/murders that occured at, Waywayanda State Park in West Milford NJ. Harry Shortway asked me to see what evidence I could get to him against Snell from my apartment leading up to his attic.
I did and it was very suspicous. Snell kept old newspaper clippings of the rapes and murders etc.. Shortway never arrested either man. SNell’s friend even told me he was up at the Waywaynda Park harrassing women at that time.

The judge fined my ex husband, warning both men and Kridel himself.

The NJ State Attorney General then, completely ignored my complaints afterwhich. I drove to Fort Dix Military Base complaining to the internal affairs officer who told me that Harry Shortway was affiliated with too powerful an organization for him to do anyting to help me.

The Kridel lawfirm was allowed to continue practicing their so-called “law� in the state of NJ.

More to Come on them but I was slandered forever and my reputation ruined because my ex husband had told Kridel lawfirm that “My Wife Jill Starr has a gun and she will use it.�

I never did and it was a lie!
And they wanted to either kill me and/or prove I was too unstable mentally to stand before the Int’l Criminal Court for Serbia (?) Obviously YES!

I admit often wondering in the post 1999 Kosovo environment when and if:
Bill Clinton will send the NATO to the west milford municipal building for committing agregeous violations of human rights and genocide against jews and blacks in the State of NJ and in Passaic County in general.

Now that my articles can be proven by court transcripts. I AWAIT MY MONETARY SETTLEMENT! I cannot come fast enough. When Harry Shortway became andry at me because my ex husband threatened to turn him and his gang into authorities for dealing cocaine in the Highcrest Lake area of West Milford the West Milford Police all of a sudden decided they would try me on about 10 traffic tickets. I was forced to come to the municipal building for the case.

My ex husband new about the cocaine dealing in conjunction with te West Milford Police department because he was living a Treetop Apartments during the time my family moved there when I met my ex husband back when I attended Walter T Bergen School in Bloomingdale NJ as a young 13 year old girl. My husband was into drugs and bought cocaine from Shanahan a former West Milford Police Officer involved and thrown off the force for cocaine dealing. Apparently my ex husband told me that Harry Shortway was invovled in dealing drugs to my ex husband and his friends back at Treetop during those days.

Jill Starr members.fortunecity... Feb 19 2009
bloomingdale, United States

Harry Shortway originally became angry with me because my ex husband threatened to turn him and his associates into internal affairs Mr. Sorchinski (alias Zoro in the West Milford Police Force of Internal Affairs up there then) for dealing cocaine in the Highcrest Lake area of West Milford.

Thereafter, the West Milford Police all of a sudden decided they would try me on about 10 traffic tickets. I was homeless then because they threw me out of my home, gave custody rights of my two children and assisted my ex husband in throwing ALL my property and clothing in the local garbage; even though the Paterson Domestic Violence Courts at that time gave me a court order to have the West Milford Police assist me and help me get my property out of the house I had lived in at Highcrest saftly. In any event, they (West Milford Courts) forced to come to the municipal building for the case.

My ex husband new about the cocaine dealing in conjunction with the West Milford Police department because he was living a Treetop Apartments during the time my family moved there when I met my ex husband back, and, when I attended Walter T Bergen School in Bloomingdale NJ as a young 13 year old girl. My husband was into drugs and bought cocaine from Shanahan a former West Milford Police Officer involved and thrown off the police force for cocaine dealing at Treetop Apartments.

My ex husband, ANdre Chapman told me he threatened Harry Shortway because he was jealous I thought he was �cute� and Andre Chapman told me that Harry Shortway was involved in dealing drugs to my ex husband and his friends back at Treetop during those days when I was a yong girl.

The West Milford Prosecutor also used a court protected document i.e., my Passaic County Diagnostic Exam in the traffic violations case against me which he later dropped at once when I pointed out it made him in �Contempt of Cort’ in the case for handling it and even for looking at that document which was only allowed for viewing by either myself or my attorneys in my custody case.

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COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS: WHEREBY MLADIC & KARADZIC TREATED ME WEST MILFORD DETECTIVES HARRY SHORTWAY & PETER VAN GILST

Wednesday, April 15, 2009
Comparing Whereby Karadzic & Mladic Treate Me W/NJ Deteecties Harry SHarry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Sa
Thursday, April 2, 2009
Harry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Say>>

The Instablog.Com website administration today stated on my blog account, I am no longer authorized to submit articles for some unknown reason. I surmise the reason may be I’m submitting too many articles at once. Hence, I opened an additional account just so I could post this follow up comment on my previously written article entitled, Comparing West Milford Detectives in New Jersey to the Treatment Received By Karadzic and Mladic in Serbia.

Please read it.

It is an extremely important legal case I am submitting to the Hague Court in the Netherlands as an individual complainant from here in the United States of America. I hope it will set an international precedent even in America people are abused by government officers.

I am fully convinced after almost a decade of asking the legal governmental authorities at local, state and federal levels here in the United States of America to arrest and try Detective Harry Shortway and his Sgt. Laughlin in a court of law in America for attempting to murder me and moreover physically and emotionally torturing me and my family in 1990/1991,

it is clear,

the United States of America is either unwilling OR incapable of taking the bold moral measures to arrest Harry Shortway and associates giving him a fair trial here in America similarly to what American diplomats such as Hillary Clinton accuse Serbia of not submitting General Mladic to the Hague for trial.

Hypocritical America, don’t you agree (?)

This makes a mockery of genuine ideals insofar as human rights in America while manifesting extremely gross violations of human rights against me as well as attempted genocide committed against me by Harry Shortway (on account of allegedly wanting to kill me because I derive from a Jewish family background and was then married to a black on account of his fascist affiliations with the National Alliance KKK group). These crimes against me occurred only thirty minutes away from the United Nations Security Council in Manhattan; I, Jill Starr am an American citizen and previously wrote the UN about this in the early 1990s.

All together now let’s remember the crime of ‘genocide’ in and of itself, can be the attempt to kill one OR thousands of members of any ethnic, religious group.

More to come on this story.
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I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:

1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT).

SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS POLICE CAR WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP WATCHED. THEN HE SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFING WHICH HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUE LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.

I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:

1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED WAVY HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT).

SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT IN HIGHCREST LAKE COMMUNITY WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS POLICE CAR ABOUT TEN TIMES NONSTOP WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP STOOD THERE DOING NOTHING MERELY WATCHING ME BE ABUSED.

THEN SGT LAUGHLIN SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFS WHICH HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUED LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.

THIS FINANCIAL REWARD IS CONTINGENT UPON ANY FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT I MAY RECEIVE IN THE FUTURE FROM THE THREE GRADUATE SCHOOLS FORMERLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME IN THE MOST VILE MANNERS IN THE NJ AND NYC AREAS.

I WILL OFFER SPLIT EQUITABLE FINANCIAL REWARD OF 50% OF ANY MONEY I RECEIVE TO THOSE AGENCIES AND/OR INDIVIDUALS COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO HELP BRING THESE RUTHLESS DETECTIVES AND THEIR SGT’S TO JUSTICE AND JAIL.

AND, IF AMERICAN CANNOT FIND THE MORAL AND POLITICAL WILLPOWER TO BRING THEM TO JUSTICE AND TRIAL HERE IN THE USA, I WANT THEM EXTRADITED TO THE HAGUE ICC COURT.

In friendship and diplomacy my reputation for honesty proceeds me so all interested persons and/or parties in helping me bring Shortway and his Sgt Laughlin from West Milford NJ to trial at teh Hague,

can rest assured I will uphold my end of the reward agreement shall I receive financial settlement myself from the aforementioned colleges in the near future.

lpcyusa said...

I Felt many Times Safer With General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting Alone In My Apartment In Bloomingdale, NJ USA

As an after thought on my book. I doubt very much that I met Mr. Mladic on a �baor restaurant.� There was no one else present having dinner.

It as more like a living and/or conference setting and seems to me now to be more like a private yacht. I have never really been on one before but it reminded me of photos I’ve seen of the interior of Onassis’s yachts.

I felt many times more safer sitting with General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting At Home In My Apartment In Bloomingdale, NJ US!

Although it may sound foreign to many here in America, I would feel safer having the Serbian Army as my bodyguards here at my house in Bloomingdale, NJ where I rent a small apartment to protect me from the local townships’ corrupt law enforcement officials and if I had teh finances I hire a few.

Jill Starr
I grew up traveling the world with my parents at age 7. I remember being on the island of Java in 1970/71 going swimming in the pool at Hotel InterContinentel surrounded by armed soldiers; and, and flying over Vietnam and my father pointing out "look Jill we are flying over Vietnam now..." with my Mom. The interesting thing was no commercial airlines flew over Vietnam unti. about one decade ago and certainly not in the 1970s. Sports: Water polo, Soccer Recreation: Partying, Travel Tags: reading, travel, children, swimming, music, college, writing, environment, new jersey, philosophy, culture, sociology, new york, ecology, china, peace, theatre, america, social justice, theology, war, human rights, endangered species, indonesia, russia, romania, political science, united nations, ideology, news media, war crimes, fairness, preventive diplomacy, crimes against humanity, serbia, kosovo, montenegro, edcuation, west milford, bloomingdale, mediation techniques James Bond type films.

View my complete profile
http://mladickaradzicshortwaystudy.blogspot.com/2009/04/comparing-whereby-karadzic-mladic.html
11:48 AM 5/12/2009

COMPARE HOW MLADIC AND KARADZIC TREATED ME WITH THAT OF AMERICAN DETECTIVES IN WEST MILFORD NJ->

Neither Mladli nor Karadzic touched me in any manner maliciously UNLIKE the detectives in West Milford NJ in America who banged my head against a police car over ten times and laughed at me while they handcuffed me so tight my wrists bled in the squad car. They were serving me with the ’restraining order’ my ex husband filed against me to gain custody of my two children in early 1990/91.

paid large sums of money back then to retain an attorney in New Jersey to sue the West Milford detectives. Sgt. Laughlin the tall red haired police officer over 6 feet tall was the one who banged my head against his cop car in my driveway while a rookie cop watched! No attorney took my case saying I was up against too powerful organizations. I ever went to Fort Dix NJ and told the head of the police there and he ignored me as well.

Inversely, the alleged most ruthles men and war criminals in the world since Hitler TREATED ME WITH HUMAN DIGNITY AND RESPECT ACTING LIKE GENTLEMAN AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I await everyone’s comment!

The crime against me was racially based I was told later since many of the police in West Milford belong to the KKK connected group called THE NATIONAL ALLIANCE (I was married to a black man and my family was Jewish) even though I am Russian Orthodox Christian). I traced the National Alliance to the Southern States and read their Nazi manifesto to kill all �Jews, Russians and Black.� Their signs used to be explicitly posted in the Hewitt West Milford Post Office

So I grabbed one and called them and discovered their true genocidal agenda. I am a war crimes investigator and right here only 30 minutes from the United Nations in West Milford NJ we have genocide occurring and no one listens to me!
The detectives involved were and not limited to: Sgt. Laughlin, Detective Harry Shortway and his close partner Peter Van Gilst and the former internal affairs investigator Mr. Sorchinsky aka ZORO. The National Alliance manifesto clearly indicates that persons ought use their powerful positions all over New Jersey, whether they be police, doctors and/or judges to rid the world of Russians,. Jews and Blacks

One of the many reasons for which I am on permanent disability is that I felt coerced by the police in Passaic County that unless I said I was �insane� I may be shot and killed because I’d be able to testify against them! Detective Shortway set me up to be murdered once already by placing an ad in the localO paper and saying he was leaving on vacation etc.etc... it is too complicated to go into here and now. I was looking for a new place to rent with my family at the time. On a voice changing machine (as my children can attest to) he gave me directions to a house to look at towards the end of all this ordeal with him. Later I found out the directions where I told my family I was going to look at th rental were over 20 miles in another direction and no one wold have ever found me again. This is my take on this and I am usually correct. Sorry for my spelling but this is extremely dificult for me to remember (agonizingly painful emotionally)

I am scared to death now not of anything emanating from my writing about Mladic, but of my present close proximity where I reside nearby to West Milford and its associated Detectives. I never feared being hurt because I am writing a book based on my experiences in Serbia and Montenegro. Yes I am fearful of retaliation of SHORTWAY AND HIS CRONIES !

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UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychiatric Facility in Wykoff NJ USA

(Ramapo Ridge Hospital) As SEcret Military Tribunal and Torture Facilty

Monday, April 20, 2009
Recovery Leads to Near Death Experience at Ramapo Ridge Psychiatiric Hospital in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A.) A few years ago during an incident becoming seemingly common place in my life happening so often now. The local Bloomingdale New Jersey Police Department again had forced me
physically into a psychiatric Hospital again; this time Chilton Hospital in Paquannock, NJ,
USA. I was in the emergency room once again, for seemingly no reason whatsoever after making
another attempt reporting an incident for investigation to the local Bloomingdale, NJ Police
mentioning issues effecting the entire world. Anyway, this time Chilton Hospital forced me into a place called Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric Hospital. They had me on medications dropping my blood pressure to 82 over 67 (i almost died). They continued to force me to take this medication for at least three weeks in which time they refused to release me. I was not released for almost one month after arguing with the staff that there was nothing at all wrong with me. Each day my two regular psychiatrists called Ramapo Ridge Mental Hospital trying to get released. They refused and Ramapo Ridge told me I had to stand before a judge and court located in the bottom floor of the building to be released.After three weeks I had to go downstairs and I actually stood before what seemed to be a “war crimes tribunal,� in lower level of the Ramapo Ridge . I stood before a judge wearing a regular judicial long black robe and a line of attorney’s beseeching my release from the hospital.
I dont know to this day what this experience was about; i dread to tell you. Secret types of
military tribunals right here operating in the USA by the CIA (?) Inquiring minds demand
answers.

UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychiatric Hospital Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tribunal and Interrogation Facility)A few years ago
during an incident becoming seemingly common place in my life happening so often now. The
local Bloomingdale New Jersey Police Department again had forced me physically into a psychiatric Hospital again; this time Chilton Hospital in Paquannock, NJ, USA. I was in the emergency room once again, for seemingly no reason whatsoever after making another attempt reporting an incident for investigation to the local Bloomingdale, NJ Police mentioning issues effecting the entire world. Anyway, this time Chilton Hospital forced me into a place called Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric Hospital. They had me on medications dropping my blood pressure to 82 over 67 (i almost died). They continued to force me to take this medication for at least three weeks in which time they refused to release me. I was not released for almost one month after arguing with the staff that there was nothing at all wrong with me. Each day my two regular psychiatrists called Ramapo Ridge Mental
Hospital trying to get released. They refused and Ramapo Ridge told me I had to stand before
a judge and court located in the bottom floor of the building to be released. After three weeks I had to go downstairs and I actually stood before what seemed to be a “war crimes tribunal,� in lower level of the Ramapo Ridge . I stood before a judge wearing a regular judicial long black robe and a line of attorney’s beseeching my release from the hospital. I dont know to this day what this experience was about; i dread to tell you. Secret types of military tribunals right here operating in the USA by the CIA (?) Inquiring minds demand answers. UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff, New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility) I will also add that now I am scared beyond belief to go to the emergency room at Chilton Hospital in Pomtpon Plains NJ. WHY (?) Ever since the Bloomingdale, NJ police illegally forced me to continually go into the psychiatric ward at Chilton against my and my doctors will whenever I make a local police report when I feel my life is endangered, when I am physically ill with the flu or something, I notice when I go to the Chilton Hospital emergency room, instead of taking my injury seriously, the doctors just ask me if I want to go into the psychiatric section upstairs, strongly suggesting I am being �paranoid.� Instead of offering me good medical care.

I can never get nondiscriminatory emergency medical care at Chilton hospital without the
hospital itself insisting that I am just being �paranoid.� And they always call my psychiatrist
whenever I go to their hospital even for the flu! This has led to Arnold Stark my former professor advising me to always go to St Joseph’s Hospital in Wayne NJ instead which I do n ow.
I will also add that now I am scared beyond belief to go to the emergency room at Chilton Hospital in Pomtpon Plains NJ. WHY (?) Ever since the Bloomingdale, NJ police illegally forced me to continually go into the psychiatric ward at Chilton against my and my doctors will whenever I make a local police report when I feel my life is endangered, when I am physically ill with the flu or something, I notice when I go to the Chilton Hospital emergency room, instead of taking my injury seriously, the doctors just ask me if I want to go into the psychiatric section upstairs, strongly suggesting I am being �paranoid.� Instead of offering me good medical care.

I can never get nondiscriminatory emergency medical care at Chilton hospital without the
hospital itself insisting that I am just being �paranoid.� And they always call my psychiatrist
whenever I go to their hospital even for the flu! This has led to Arnold Stark my former professor advising me to always go to St Joseph’s Hospital in Wayne NJ instead which I do n ow. Jill Starr
I grew up traveling the world with my parents at age 7. I remember being on the island of
Java in 1970/71 going swimming in the pool at Hotel InterContinentel surrounded by armed
soldiers; and, and flying over Vietnam and my father pointing out "look Jill we are flying over
Vietnam now..." with my Mom. The interesting thing was no commercial airlines flew over
Vietnam unti. about one decade ago and certainly not in the 1970s. Sports: Water polo, Soccer
Recreation: Partying, Travel Tags: reading, travel, children, swimming, music, college,
writing, environment, new jersey, philosophy, culture, sociology, new york, ecology, china,
peace, theatre, america, social justice, theology, war, human rights, endangered species,
indonesia, russia, romania, political science, united nations, ideology, news media, war crimes,
fairness, preventive diplomacy, crimes against humanity, serbia, kosovo, montenegro,
edcuation, west milford, bloomingdale, mediation techniques James Bond type films.
View my complete profile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me A

Thursday, April 23, 2009
Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility
Jill Starr , bloomingdale: Apr 5 2009
United States :

Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility
This is the story while I was illegally detained at Ramapo Ridge facility in Wykoff NJ USA, a
man comes in through the front door wearing a one piece janitor outfit and starts mopping for
about 10 minutes . He looked like one of my father’s former associates from way back in the day (I won’t say who now). Anyway, he walked out of the men’s room and then tosses his mop aside and unzips his janitorial outfit revealing a pin striped sharp blue suit, grabs his briefcase behind the front
desks and whisks himself out the front door saying goodbye to me. Posted by lpcyusa at 10:48 AM 0 comments Evidence United States Tortured Its Own Citizen

When I refused to take the continuous lines of medications at Ramapo Ridge facility I knew that
I was extemely allergic to they told me I needed an �Attitude adjustment.�
This is when they took me into a solitary confinement room and put my arms and legs in straps
on a horrible bed. The injected me with the medication they told me I was �going to get one way or another.� For about 4-6 hours (it is difficult to kow I was drugged) the facility would not allow me a
bedpan or to get up to the bathroom and told me to crap and piss all over msyelf and I could
take a shower when my �attitude is right.� AFter I calmed down because I had no recourse, I was allowed to take a shower they bossed me around saying �Go shower now Jill!�

I was absolutely tortured right there in NJ USA Ramapo Ridge Sends Me Back To Chilton Hospital After My First Ambulatory Arrival And Drug Urine Test Fails Ramapo Ridge Sends Me Back To Chilton Hospital After My First Ambulatory Arrival And Drug Urine Test Fails
The first time Chilton sent me via ambulance to the Ramapo Ridge facility, the ambulance from
Chilton dropped me off. The Ramapo Ridge facility gave me a urine test as soon as I arrived at
the detention facility in Wykoff NJ USA. The test was positive for a result because Ramapo Ridge sent me all the way back to Chilton by way of another ambulance at 3Am in the morning.
The Head Nurse told me “Jill you have to go back to Chilton Hospital because we have to wait
for your urine test to clear from something or the other...) to the best of my memory which is
VERY good as we know is a proven fact. I was sent back to Chilton Hospital from Ramapo Ridge at about 3 am in the morning until a urine test that Chilton Hospital in Pompton Plains NJ said that I was able to be transported back to Ramapo Ridge. It must have been close to 4-5:30 am almost dawn when this occurred to me.I will continue to release proof and details until the United States of America grants both Serbia and myself immediate monetary settlements for our troubles.
Serbia and Bonsia and Montenegro are due moneys because of illegal bombing of their countries and I am owed a sizable financial settlement as stated. I ask President Obama to immediately work out an out of international court settlement at once before the news reports it right with MY TRANSLATION!

When the second time I arrived at Ramapo Ridge about 4 am in the morning after complaining that in my own views there was no reason to send me back and forth between hospitals in the middle of the night, the Ramapo Ridge facility told me to wait ina room with magazines and puzzles in it. I worked on a large jigsaw puzzle and heard the Head Nurse say to a man that looked like a CIA operative �ENTER THIS TIME IN HER LOG.� Even writing about this experience in this blog to expose it causes me panics attacks I will have for the rest of my life.
When I refused to take the continuous lines of medications at Ramapo Ridge facility I knew that
I was extemely allergic to they told me I needed an �Attitude adjustment.�
This is when they took me into a solitary confinement room and put my arms and legs in straps
on a horrible bed.

The injected me with the medication they told me I was �going to get one way or another.�
For about 4-6 hours (it is difficult to kow I was drugged) the facility would not allow me a
bedpan or to get up to the bathroom and told me to crap and piss all over msyelf and I could
take a shower when my �attitude is right.� AFter I calmed down because I had no recourse, I was allowed to take a shower they bossed me around saying �Go shower now Jill!�
I was absolutely tortured right there in NJ USA http://lpcyu.instablogs.com/feed
And again, both Ramapo Ridge and Chilton in Pompton Plains NJ both allowed former doctor
Charlotte Piuck, my former psychiatrist whose license taken away by the New Jersey branch of
American Medical Association, consult with Ramapo Ridge and Chilton doctors whom were

licensed and they agrered with her behind the meddical desk to continue giuving me
medications they all knew I had long hostories of being allergic to.
When I did get allergic reactions in Chilton and Ramapo Ridge BOTH FACILITIES
REFUSED TO GIVE ME BENEDRYL TO COUNTER ACT TE ALLERGIC REACTION
WHICH COULD HAV KILLED ME

ill Starr, Director of the UN/NGO The Law Projects Center Manhattan Area Office Confirms
She Was Illegally Detained by US Intlligence Officials at Ramapo Ridge Facility in Wykoff NJ
(Secret US Military Tribunal and Interrogation Center) Where She Was Placed In Straight
Jacket and Gave Me Injections Ramapo Ridge facility also put me in a straight jacket and chained me to the bed in their facility and gave me injections for hours!eing Drugged and Questioned At Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff In addition to being dragged off and illegally detained and imprisoned for over 2.5 weeks in Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric Facility in Wykoff NJ by Bloomingdale, NJ Police Officials hoping to collect on information they are trying to get out of me ; they hope sharing in that pot of million dollar Euros on the Mladic & Karadzic arrest which is why they have abused me so
here locally in NJ USA, the facility at Ramapo Ridge came fully equipped with judges in long black robes and an entire courtroom with a row of high powered attorneys in high powered suits, for defendants for persons like myself demanding to be released when their regular doctors continued calling the facility to have the released; and, Ramapo Ridge refused.
Ramapo Ridge also drugged me on medications I had a long history of being allergic to
against my will and kept keeping logs all day and night about “what Jill was rambling about
now,� I remember in my drugged state rambling about Osama bin Laden and some others things
they were trying to force out of me about war crimes in Serbia and Bosnia. I almost died from
the low blood pressures these drugs produced in me and I have Arnold Stark with me when
they took my blood pressure and it was only like 62/90 (!) Arnold said “She could die!� to the
facility doctors but they only forced me to take more medicines.
PRSIDENT OBAMA HAS DONE NOTHING FOR CHANGE! HE LIES AND COVERS THIS
UP AND I STILL AWAIT SOME FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT FOR THIS TORTURE IN NJ
USA. ONLY 30 MINUTES FROM THE UNITED NATIONS IN NYC
Posted by lpcyusa at 7:54 AM 0 comments
This is why I, Jill Starr, Felt So Safe on a Tivat Montenegro Car Ferry Surrounded By At Least
20 Armed Serbian Soldiers....Jill Starr Accuses Local Police Of Illegally Serving Search Warrant too (!) Bloomingdale Police arrested me under the pretense for “drugs,� but they searched illegally
way outside the legal limits of their “search warrant� signed by local Judge Cluff (also serving
in West Milford NJ and he knows Harry Shortway)...The search warrant itself never manifested
any particular place in my home where I had drugs and/or not explicit what types of any drugs
if any the local Bloomingdale NJ Police were looking for in my house and at what location in
my house itself. It was like I was served with a “Patriot Act Warrant� ANYTHING WAS LEGAL FOR THEM TO DO TO ME! THE LOCAL DETECTIVE SEARCHED EVERYTHING THREATENING TO PUT ME IN OB/GYN STIRRUPS AND LOOK UP MY PRIVATES IF THEY COULD NOT FIND WHAT THEY WERE SEARCHING FOR IN MY HOUSE AND BODY. THEY STRIP SEARCHED ME WITH A FEMALE PATRON TOO IN TOWNHALL!

I DEMAND IMMEDIATE ARRESTS OF CERTAIN LOCAL BLOOMINGDALE POLICE
INVOLVED IN MY TORTURE AND ABUSE, PRESIDENT OBAMA NOW!
I have a copy of it the warrant in my hands now to be released at any time.
They ransacked my place searched every paper for evidence of where Mladic and Karadzic
were instead (!) http://www.icty.org/case/karadzic/4 Click the link above to see international justice in action. Legal scholars around the world are not asking why Radovan Karadzic cannot be granted
enough time by the Hague’s Int’l Criminal Court to read his own transcripts for his own
defense, and, have his legal briefs translated before his arraignments (?) so he can defend
himself in the Hague’s highest court. Why can’t he subeana Richard Holbrook as a witness to testify and others in his behalf possessing important and vital documentary evidence in acting in his own defense (?) If a small court in Paterson New Jersey and local courts my own small New Jersey municipality can arrange such legal provisions, why won’t the Hague (?)
After all the Hague claims it does not have enough resources which is doubtful since it claims
necessity to move gold and other international assets on court business unhindered through
interstate borders. The Hague’s highest court globally has just been exposed in one easy blog as as a genuine travesty of social equitable international justice in all cases in the Former Yugoslavia.
Posted by lpcyusa at 7:40 AM 0 comments US tried to assassinate me: Karadzic to UN court
United States Tried to assassinate me’: Karadzic to UN court
Submitted by Sahil Nagpal on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 06:23.
London, Aug. 1: Former Bosnian-Serb leader Radovan Karadzic has accused the United
States of trying to assassinate him. Appearing before a UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Karadzic, who is now known to his jailers as prisoner number 38, informed Dutch judge Alphons Orie that Richard Holbrooke, the former United States Assistant Secretary of State, had granted him immunity as part of a wider Bosnia peace deal agreed in 1995.

“My commitment was to withdraw even from literary life and all sorts of public life,� he said.
How else can Karadzic or anyone else sitting at the Hague’s highest court get fair trials in this
matter (?) Intelligence Office Sources also confirm that Ratko Mladic’s life is also in grave danger and it is in his best interest to remain at all costs away from the Hague until a full investigation is
completed in the death of Slobodan Milosevic as well.
Sources confirm that a mryiad of local NJ doctors knowingly put Jill Starr on enough
combination drugs to overdose herself knowing she was suicidal and depressed at that time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a at 3:37 PM 0 comments
Comparing Whereby Karadzic & Mladic Treate Me W/NJ Deteecties Harry SHarry Shortway,
Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Sa
Thursday, April 2, 2009
Harry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Say>>
The Instablog.Com website administration today stated on my blog account, I am no longer
authorized to submit articles for some unknown reason. I surmise the reason may be I’m
submitting too many articles at once. Hence, I opened an additional account just so I could
post this follow up comment on my previously written article entitled, Comparing West Milford
Detectives in New Jersey to the Treatment Received By Karadzic and Mladic in Serbia.
Please read it. It is an extremely important legal case I am submitting to the Hague Court in the Netherlands as an individual complainant from here in the United States of America. I hope it will set an international precedent even in America people are abused by government officers.
I am fully convinced after almost a decade of asking the legal governmental authorities at
local, state and federal levels here in the United States of America to arrest and try Detective
Harry Shortway and his Sgt. Laughlin in a court of law in America for attempting to murder
me and moreover physically and emotionally torturing me and my family in 1990/1991,
it is clear, the United States of America is either unwilling OR incapable of taking the bold moral
measures to arrest Harry Shortway and associates giving him a fair trial here in America
similarly to what American diplomats such as Hillary Clinton accuse Serbia of not submitting
General Mladic to the Hague for trial. Hypocritical America, don’t you agree (?)
This makes a mockery of genuine ideals insofar as human rights in America while manifesting
extremely gross violations of human rights against me as well as attempted genocide committed
against me by Harry Shortway (on account of allegedly wanting to kill me because I derive
from a Jewish family background and was then married to a black on account of his fascist
affiliations with the National Alliance KKK group). These crimes against me occurred only
thirty minutes away from the United Nations Security Council in Manhattan; I, Jill Starr am
an American citizen and previously wrote the UN about this in the early 1990s.
All together now let’s remember the crime of ‘genocide’ in and of itself, can be the attempt to
kill one OR thousands of members of any ethnic, religious group.
More to come on this story.
-

I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING
TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST
MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:
1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM
BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT). SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS POLICE CAR WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP WATCHED. THEN HE SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFING WHICH HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUE LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION. I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES: 1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED WAVY HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT).
SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN
THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT IN HIGHCREST LAKE
COMMUNITY WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW
JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS
POLICE CAR ABOUT TEN TIMES NONSTOP WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP
STOOD THERE DOING NOTHING MERELY WATCHING ME BE ABUSED.
THEN SGT LAUGHLIN SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFS WHICH
HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN
PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD
NOT STOP AND CONTINUED LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE
SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.
THIS FINANCIAL REWARD IS CONTINGENT UPON ANY FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT I
MAY RECEIVE IN THE FUTURE FROM THE THREE GRADUATE SCHOOLS
FORMERLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME IN THE MOST VILE MANNERS IN THE NJ
AND NYC AREAS. I WILL OFFER SPLIT EQUITABLE FINANCIAL REWARD OF 50% OF ANY MONEY I RECEIVE TO THOSE AGENCIES AND/OR INDIVIDUALS COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO HELP BRING THESE RUTHLESS DETECTIVES AND THEIR SGT’S TO JUSTICE AND JAIL. AND, IF AMERICAN CANNOT FIND THE MORAL AND POLITICAL WILLPOWER TO BRING THEM TO JUSTICE AND TRIAL HERE IN THE USA, I WANT THEM EXTRADITED TO THE HAGUE ICC COURT.
In friendship and diplomacy my reputation for honesty proceeds me so all interested persons
and/or parties in helping me bring Shortway and his Sgt Laughlin from West Milford NJ to
trial at teh Hague, can rest assured I will uphold my end of the reward agreement shall I receive financial settlement myself from the aforementioned colleges in the near future.

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UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychiatric Facility in Wykoff NJ USA

(Ramapo Ridge Hospital) As SEcret Military Tribunal and Torture Facilty

Monday, April 20, 2009
Recovery Leads to Near Death Experience at Ramapo Ridge Psychiatiric Hospital in Wykoff,

New Jersey (U.S.A.)

A few years ago during an incident becoming seemingly common place in my life happening so
often now. The local Bloomingdale New Jersey Police Department again had forced me
physically into a psychiatric Hospital again; this time Chilton Hospital in Paquannock, NJ,
USA. I was in the emergency room once again, for seemingly no reason whatsoever after making
another attempt reporting an incident for investigation to the local Bloomingdale, NJ Police
mentioning issues effecting the entire world.
Anyway, this time Chilton Hospital forced me into a place called Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric
Hospital. They had me on medications dropping my blood pressure to 82 over 67 (i almost
died). They continued to force me to take this medication for at least three weeks in which time
they refused to release me. I was not released for almost one month after arguing with the staff that there was nothing at all wrong with me. Each day my two regular psychiatrists called Ramapo Ridge Mental Hospital trying to get released. They refused and Ramapo Ridge told me I had to stand before a judge and court located in the bottom floor of the building to be released.

After three weeks I had to go downstairs and I actually stood before what seemed to be a “war
crimes tribunal,� in lower level of the Ramapo Ridge .I stood before a judge wearing a regular judicial long black robe and a line of attorney’s beseeching my release from the hospital.
I dont know to this day what this experience was about; i dread to tell you. Secret types of
military tribunals right here operating in the USA by the CIA (?) Inquiring minds demand

Saturday, March 28, 2009
UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation
United States :

UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)UN NGO In NYC
Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff, New Jersey
(U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)
Jill Starr , bloomingdale: Feb 12 2009
United States :
UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)A few years ago
during an incident becoming seemingly common place in my life happening so often now. The
local Bloomingdale New Jersey Police Department again had forced me physically into a
psychiatric Hospital again; this time Chilton Hospital in Paquannock, NJ, USA.
I was in the emergency room once again, for seemingly no reason whatsoever after making
another attempt reporting an incident for investigation to the local Bloomingdale, NJ Police
mentioning issues effecting the entire world.
Anyway, this time Chilton Hospital forced me into a place called Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric
Hospital. They had me on medications dropping my blood pressure to 82 over 67 (i almost
died). They continued to force me to take this medication for at least three weeks in which time
they refused to release me.

I was not released for almost one month after arguing with the staff that there was nothing at
all wrong with me. Each day my two regular psychiatrists called Ramapo Ridge Mental
Hospital trying to get released. They refused and Ramapo Ridge told me I had to stand before
a judge and court located in the bottom floor of the building to be released.
After three weeks I had to go downstairs and I actually stood before what seemed to be a “war
crimes tribunal,� in lower level of the Ramapo Ridge . I stood before a judge wearing a regular judicial long black robe and a line of attorney’s beseeching my release from the hospital.
I dont know to this day what this experience was about; i dread to tell you. Secret types of
military tribunals right here operating in the USA by the CIA (?) Inquiring minds demand
answers. UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff, New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)
Tags: cia, military tribunals, jill starr, rendition

I will also add that now I am scared beyond belief to go to the emergency room at Chilton
Hospital in Pomtpon Plains NJ. WHY (?) Ever since the Bloomingdale, NJ police illegally forced me to continually go into the psychiatric ward at Chilton against my and my doctors will whenever I make a local police report when I feel my life is endangered,
when I am physically ill with the flu or something, I notice when I go to the Chilton Hospital
emergency room, instead of taking my injury seriously, the doctors just ask me if I want to go
into the psychiatric section upstairs, strongly suggesting I am being �paranoid.� Instead of
offering me good medical care. I can never get nondiscriminatory emergency medical care at Chilton hospital without the

hospital itself insisting that I am just being �paranoid.� And they always call my psychiatrist

whenever I go to their hospital even for the flu! This has led to Arnold Stark my former professor advising me to always go to St Joseph’s Hospital in Wayne NJ instead which I do n ow.
I will also add that now I am scared beyond belief to go to the emergency room at Chilton
Hospital in Pomtpon Plains NJ. WHY (?)Ever since the Bloomingdale, NJ police illegally forced me to continually go into the psychiatric ward at Chilton against my and my doctors will whenever I make a local police report when I feel my life is endangered,
when I am physically ill with the flu or something, I notice when I go to the Chilton Hospital
emergency room, instead of taking my injury seriously, the doctors just ask me if I want to go
into the psychiatric section upstairs, strongly suggesting I am being �paranoid.� Instead of
offering me good medical care. I can never get nondiscriminatory emergency medical care at Chilton hospital without the hospital itself insisting that I am just being �paranoid.� And they always call my psychiatrist whenever I go to their hospital even for the flu!
This has led to Arnold Stark my former professor advising me to always go to St Joseph’s
Hospital in Wayne NJ instead which I do n ow. Jill Starr
I grew up traveling the world with my parents at age 7. I remember being on the island of
Java in 1970/71 going swimming in the pool at Hotel InterContinentel surrounded by armed
soldiers; and, and flying over Vietnam and my father pointing out "look Jill we are flying over
Vietnam now..." with my Mom. The interesting thing was no commercial airlines flew over
Vietnam until. about one decade ago and certainly not in the 1970s. Sports: Water polo, Soccer
Recreation: Partying, Travel Tags: reading, travel, children, swimming, music, college,

Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me A

Thursday, April 23, 2009
Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility

Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility

Jill Starr , bloomingdale: Apr 5 2009
United States :

Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility
This is the story while I was illegally detained at Ramapo Ridge facility in Wykoff NJ USA, a
man comes in through the front door wearing a one piece janitor outfit and starts mopping for
about 10 minutes .
He looked like one of my father’s former associates from way back in the day (I won’t say who
now).Anyway, he walked out of the men’s room and then tosses his mop aside and unzips his
janitorial outfit revealing a pin striped sharp blue suit, grabs his briefcase behind the front
desks and whisks himself out the front door saying goodbye to me.
Posted by lpcyusa at 10:48 AM 0 comments

Evidence United States Tortured Its Own Citizen

Thursday, April 23, 2009
United States :

Even writing about this experience in this blog to expose it causes me panics attacks I will have

for the rest of my life.

WHAT DO YOU SAY OBAMA (?)
WHICH CIA OPERATIVES WANT THEIR JOCK STRAPS REMOVED FIRST (?)
WE KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS! WHAT DO YOU SAY OBAMA?
When I refused to take the continuous lines of medications at Ramapo Ridge facility I knew that
I was extemely allergic to they told me I needed an �Attitude adjustment.�
This is when they took me into a solitary confinement room and put my arms and legs in straps
on a horrible bed. The injected me with the medication they told me I was �going to get one way or another.� For about 4-6 hours (it is difficult to kow I was drugged) the facility would not allow me a
bedpan or to get up to the bathroom and told me to crap and piss all over msyelf and I could
take a shower when my �attitude is right.�

After I calmed down because I had no recourse, I was allowed to take a shower they bossed
me around saying �Go shower now Jill!� I was absolutely tortured right there in NJ USA
Ramapo Ridge Sends Me Back To Chilton Hospital After My First Ambulatory Arrival And
Drug Urine Test Fails Ramapo Ridge Sends Me Back To Chilton Hospital After My First Ambulatory Arrival And Drug Urine Test Fails
The first time Chilton sent me via ambulance to the Ramapo Ridge facility, the ambulance from
Chilton dropped me off. The Ramapo Ridge facility gave me a urine test as soon as I arrived at
the detention facility in Wykoff NJ USA.
The test was positive for a result because Ramapo Ridge sent me all the way back to Chilton by
way of another ambulance at 3Am in the morning.
The Head Nurse told me “Jill you have to go back to Chilton Hospital because we have to wait
for your urine test to clear from something or the other...) to the best of my memory which is
VERY good as we know is a proven fact.
I was sent back to Chilton Hospital from Ramapo Ridge at about 3 am in the morning until a
urine test that Chilton Hospital in Pompton Plains NJ said that I was able to be transported
back to Ramapo Ridge. It must have been close to 4-5:30 am almost dawn when this occurred to me.
I will continue to release proof and details until the United States of America grants both
Serbia and myself immediate monetary settlements for our troubles.
Serbia and Bonsia and Montenegro are due moneys because of illegal bombing of their
countries and I am owed a sizable financial settlement as stated.
I ask President Obama to immediately work out an out of international court settlement at once
before the news reports it right with MY TRANSLATION!

When the second time I arrived at Ramapo Ridge about 4 am in the morning after
complaining that in my own views there was no reason to send me back and forth between
hospitals in the middle of the night, the Ramapo Ridge facility told me to wait ina room with
magazines and puzzles in it. I worked on a large jigsaw puzzle and heard the Head Nurse say
to a man that looked like a CIA operative �ENTER THIS TIME IN HER LOG.�
Comment Link

bloomingdale, United States
[Member]
Even writing about this experience in this blog to expose it causes me panics attacks I will have
for the rest of my life.WHAT DO YOU SAY OBAMA (?)
WHICH CIA OPERATIVS WANT THEIR JOCK STRAPS REMOVED FIRST (?)
WE KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS!WAHT DO YOU SAY OBAMA?\
[Member] When I refused to take the continuous lines of medications at Ramapo Ridge facility I knew that I was extemely allergic to they told me I needed an �Attitude adjustment.�
This is when they took me into a solitary confinement room and put my arms and legs in straps
on a horrible bed.

The injected me with the medication they told me I was �going to get one way or another.� For about 4-6 hours (it is difficult to kow I was drugged) the facility would not allow me a
bedpan or to get up to the bathroom and told me to crap and piss all over msyelf and I could
take a shower when my �attitude is right.�AFter I calmed down because I had no recourse, I was allowed to take a shower they bossed me around saying �Go shower now Jill!�

I was absolutely tortured right there in NJ USA

http://lpcyu.instablogs.com/feed

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(And again, both Ramapo Ridge and Chilton in Pompton Plains NJ both allowed former doctor
Charlotte Piuck, my former psychiatrist whose license taken away by the New Jersey branch of
American Medical Association, consult with Ramapo Ridge and Chilton doctors whom were
licensed and they agrered with her behind the meddical desk to continue giuving me
medications they all knew I had long hostories of being allergic to.
When I did get allergic reactions in Chilton and Ramapo Ridge BOTH FACILITIES
REFUSED TO GIVE ME BENEDRYL TO COUNTER ACT TE ALLERGIC REACTION
WHICH COULD HAV KILLED ME
Comment Link
Posted by lpcyusa at 10:57 AM 0 comments
Jill Starr, Director of the UN/NGO The Law Projects Center Manhattan Area Office Confirms
She Was Illegally Detained by US Intlligence Officials at Ramapo Ridge Facility in Wykoff NJ
(Secret US Military Tribunal and Interrogation Center) Where She Was Placed In Straight
Jacket and Gave Me Injections
Ramapo Ridge facility also put me in a straight jacket and chained me to the bed in their
facility and gave me injections for hours!eing Drugged and Questioned At Ramapo Ridge in
Wykoff. In addition to being dragged off and illegally detained and imprisoned for over 2.5 weeks in
Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric Facility in Wykoff NJ by Bloomingdale, NJ Police Officials hoping
to collect on information they are trying to get out of me ; they hope sharing in that pot of
million dollar Euros on the Mladic & Karadzic arrest which is why they have abused me so
here locally in NJ USA, the facility at Ramapo Ridge came fully equipped with judges in long black robes and an entire courtroom with a row of high powered attorneys in high powered suits, for defendants for persons like myself demanding to be released when their regular doctors continued calling the facility to have the released; and, Ramapo Ridge refused.

Ramapo Ridge also drugged me on medications I had a long history of being allergic to
against my will and kept keeping logs all day and night about “what Jill was rambling about
now,� I remember in my drugged state rambling about Osama bin Laden and some others things
they were trying to force out of me about war crimes in Serbia and Bosnia. I almost died from
the low blood pressures these drugs produced in me and I have Arnold Stark with me when
they took my blood pressure and it was only like 62/90 (!) Arnold said “She could die!� to the
facility doctors but they only forced me to take more medicines. PRSIDENT OBAMA HAS DONE NOTHING FOR CHANGE! HE LIES AND COVERS THIS UP AND I STILL AWAIT SOME FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT FOR THIS TORTURE IN NJ USA. ONLY 30 MINUTES FROM THE UNITED NATIONS IN NYCPosted by lpcyusa at 7:54 AM 0 comments
This is why I, Jill Starr, Felt So Safe on a Tivat Montenegro Car Ferry Surrounded By At Least
20 Armed Serbian Soldiers....

Jill Starr Accuses Local Police Of Illegally Serving Search Warrant too (!)
Bloomingdale Police arrested me under the pretense for “drugs,� but they searched illegally
way outside the legal limits of their “search warrant� signed by local Judge Cluff (also serving
in West Milford NJ and he knows Harry Shortway)...The search warrant itself never manifested
any particular place in my home where I had drugs and/or not explicit what types of any drugs
if any the local Bloomingdale NJ Police were looking for in my house and at what location in
my house itself. It was like I was served with a “Patriot Act Warrant� ANYTHING WAS LEGAL FOR THEM TO DO TO ME!
THE LOCAL DETECTIVE SEARCHED EVERYTHING THREATENING TO PUT ME IN
OB/GYN STIRRUPS AND LOOK UP MY PRIVATES IF THEY COULD NOT FIND WHAT

THEY WERE SEARCHING FOR IN MY HOUSE AND BODY. THEY STRIP SEARCHED ME
WITH A FEMALE PATRON TOO IN TOWNHALL! I DEMAND IMMEDIATE ARRESTS OF CERTAIN LOCAL BLOOMINGDALE POLICE INVOLVED IN MY TORTURE AND ABUSE, PRESIDENT OBAMA NOW! I have a copy of it the warrant in my hands now to be released at any time.They ransacked my place searched every paper for evidence of where Mladic and Karadzic
were instead (!) http://www.icty.org/case/karadzic/4

Legal scholars around the world are not asking why Radovan Karadzic cannot be granted
enough time by the Hague’s Int’l Criminal Court to read his own transcripts for his own
defense, and, have his legal briefs translated before his arraignments (?) so he can defend
himself in the Hague’s highest court. Why can’t he subeana Richard Holbrook as a witness to testify and others in his behalf possessing important and vital documentary evidence in acting in his own defense (?)If a small court in Paterson New Jersey and local courts my own small New Jersey municipality can arrange such legal provisions, why won’t the Hague (?) fter all the Hague claims it does not have enough resources which is doubtful since it claims necessity to move gold and other international assets on court business unhindered through interstate borders.
The Hague’s highest court globally has just been exposed in one easy blog as as a genuine
travesty of social equitable international justice in all cases in the Former Yugoslavia.

Posted by lpcyusa at 7:40 AM 0 comments
US tried to assassinate me: Karadzic to UN court

United States Tried to assassinate me’: Karadzic to UN court
Submitted by Sahil Nagpal on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 06:23.

London, Aug. 1: Former Bosnian-Serb leader Radovan Karadzic has accused the United States of trying to assassinate him. Appearing before a UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Karadzic, who is now known to his jailers as prisoner number 38, informed Dutch judge Alphons Orie that Richard Holbrooke, the former United States Assistant Secretary of State, had granted him immunity as part of a wider Bosnia peace deal agreed in 1995.“My commitment was to withdraw even from literary life and all sorts of public life,� he said. How else can Karadzic or anyone else sitting at the Hague’s highest court get fair trials in this Intelligence Office Sources also confirm that Ratko Mladic’s life is also in grave danger and it is in his best interest to remain at all costs away from the Hague until a full investigation is completed in the death of Slobodan Milosevic as well.
Sources confirm that a mryiad of local NJ doctors knowingly put Jill Starr on enough
combination drugs to overdose herself knowing she was suicidal and depressed at that time.

Comparing Whereby Karadzic & Mladic Treate Me W/NJ Detectives Harry SHarry Shortway,

Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Sa
Thursday, April 2, 2009 Harry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Say>>

It is an extremely important legal case I am submitting to the Hague Court in the Netherlands as an individual complainant from here in the United States of America. I hope it will set an
international precedent even in America people are abuse