May 16, 2006
Tickle This (Stolen from the News Tab Edition)Humor
What has happened to Indian American media culture? Just yesterday it seemed like things were going so well. Indian Americans were winning Jeopardy semifinals, patrolling the streets of Kabul, and getting cast as genetics professors with supernatural powers on network television. And there’s even talk that Indian American women are much in demand on the U.S. dating scene (the talk has been generated by journalists in India, but never mind!).
But then there was KaavyaGate, which got so big that President Bush was forced to address both Houses of Congress to condemn the evils of “Plagierrorism,” and suddenly everyone was looking at us like we’re all plagiarists. And now they’re debating requiring “Plagiarism free” biometric certification cards for all future immigrants from the Indian subcontinent with literary ambitions, and … well, people are freaked. As far as assimilation goes, the Indian American community is evidently back to ground zero square one.
By contrast, folks in India seem to have a much healthier relationship to important issues like religion, plagiarism and the entertainment industry. There are now religious shrines for the ‘Visa Mata’ as well as for a pressure cooker that sacrificed its life pressure to save an army platoon from a heat-seeking missile. Both of these are clearly important facets of India’s world famous spiritual masala, which the post-eminent pop songstress Britney Spears has been known to dabble with, though she has apparently not yet heard of the obscure mystical sect called “Hinduism.”
But by far the most important thing happening in India is the government’s relentless drive to stand up for what is right in the face of pseudo-secularist cinematic sleaze. And I’m not talking about how Muslims and Christians have banded together to suppress the Indian release of The Da Vinci Code; indeed, I’m actually a little confused about why a film that shows albino priests doing sinister things is so offensive. (Personally, I find the plot a little ludicrous — I doubt many Americans will be interested in such a far-fetched story! Well, at least it’s original) No, I’m actually referring to the blasphemous piece of trash known as Tickle My Funny Bone, the story of a “naughty, bold, and sexy nun.” Thank the Visa Mata that the Censor Board is on the case to protect Indian sorta-secularism from the ravages of Bollywood Nunsploitation.
amardeep on May 16, 2006 06:53 PM in Humor · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
You got the drop on me Amardeep. The soldier profiled above is the one I blogged about before. Also (via DNSI) comes a profile of this Indian American soldier.
Ok, that guy Sendhil Ramamurthy who plays the geneticist for NBC's "Heroes" is a Hottie McHott:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0707983/
Where did he come from, and why haven't we heard about him before?
समय, समाचार और कल्पनिक लकिरें |
बिता हुआ कल को आज कि सुर्खियों का नतीज़ा बना दिया |
ओह गुरू चक दे फटटै नप दे गिल्ली |
सुबह काव्व्या रात नू ब्रीटनी |
Lavanya- We DID! He's the guy that guest starred on Grey's Anatomy for the episode of the one night stand where, um, he couldn't get it uh...down. I think SM even covered it.
I too was all over the imbd site after reading seeing that in the news tab...
Hey Taz, I searched "Sendhil Ramamurthy" on the SM search engine and couldn't find any prior SM coverage of him. I *demand* that A N N A write a post covering this guy and all of his wonderful attributes! :) Naveen Andrews, step aside, we have a new brown hottie on prime time!
Speaking of desi men in Hollywood, Salman Khan's "Marigold" is due in August, and from this website it looks hella tacky.
http://www.hyperionpictures.com/user_files/live_archive/marigold.php
Taz, sorry to re-visit, but i think you may have him confused with another actor. Sukrish Bala was the dude on grey's anatomy who couldn't get it down, Sendhil Ramamurthy is a different guy.
Ramamurthy was excellent in Indian Ink and is actually better-looking in person. He's married to an actress.
Visa Mata..!! Now I've seen (or read in this case) everything!
Weird. I simply saw Sendhil's IMBD profile had grey's anatomy listed and I assumed it was the same guy, same episode. Seeing as how for a doctor show they NEVER have desis on it except for that one time...So technically, now there have been two desis on Grey's! {I'm not threadjacking. But last night's season finale was amazing!)
"I find the plot a little ludicrous I doubt many Americans will be interested in such a far-fetched story!"
no more far-fetched than what all religions say. :)
i wonder if, there are protests about "water", if the censor board and the government will invite the groups protesting to a screening to "approve" and vet it for any elements that "hurt their sensibilities" before the movie is released. when it comes to future movies that upset some groups, will the govt. imply, as in the case of Da Vinci Code, that "mischievous elements" are behind it and the movie must be "approached cautiously?" or will the government and censor board suddenly "rediscover" their secular spine just in time for 'water."? should deepa mehta be worried?
and where are the usual vocal defenders of artistic freedom in india? the azmis, roys, bhatts, mehtas who usually are not shy about speaking out for and protecting some writers and artists and filmmakers under attack from groups that want their works banned? they've been unusually quiet. no press releases, no condemnations. must be losing their sense of commmitment to freedom of expression:)
on a side note; Grey's anatomy side-discussion would be v. appreciated
GGK,
सुबह काव्व्या रात नू ब्रीटनी
What can I say? I guess I could slightly plagiarize Apache Indian:
subeh kaavya raat nu brittani
thora coke, nal whiskey
ate siapa -- on TV!
Whose God is it Anyways:
"no more far-fetched than what all religions say. :)"
Yep!
Ennis already blogged about it. here
When one kind of secular org. has
threatenspoken, that means all "seculars" have spoken.:-))(I am sorry, I cant resist. I love that organization's name :-) )
Oh man, The Sepia Destiny Crew would have a field day with what was written in that article...
Or this gem...
Friggin A. He used the "E" word. Instant ick factor.
If it weren't for the News Tab, how else would I have learned that as a desi-american woman I have "significant sexual capital"? Thanks Sepia Mutiny!
Oh dear, Britney bahenji. The mind boggles.
It's interesting (in a somewhat disturbing way) how some non-Muslim groups in India have reacted to perceived offences against their religion(s) in the same way that some Muslim groups did in response to the Danish cartoons -- "bounties" issued on the heads of the offenders, threats of violence to stop the continuation of the offensive acts, and so on. Talk about jumping on the wrong bandwagon.....
Indian culture must be protected at all costs from the notion that Jesus may have been married or, even more diabolically, the idea of naughty nuns in obscure Western films.
What would they think if they saw the old Robbie Coltrane film "Nuns on The Run" ?
the idea of naughty nuns in obscure Western films.
Actually, "Tickle my funny bone" is an Indian film, directed by a guy whose first name is Yogendra and starring (as the lead nun) an actress whose last name is Ali.
As for nunsploitation, the most outright offensive nun film I've ever seen is Pedro Almodovar's "Dark Habits".
There was an 80s film called "The Lair of the White Worm" by Ken Russell which I thought was particularly offensive to nuns.
Anyway, I wonder what the offended Christian groups back in India would think of a now-cancelled British comedy show called Father Ted, all about a group of Catholic priests in Ireland. It was hugely popular here a few years ago -- one of the all-time funniest moments was a "Xmas Special" episode, in which the hero and his friends get lost inside a huge department store, end up trapped in the lingerie department and are desparately trying to find the exit ("temptation on all sides" etc) while trying to avoid the rest of the public spotting them.....And then they turn a corner and find another group of Irish priests also "lost" in the same area ;)
Classic stuff.
Funny that the opposite could not be said. While white guys love the Indian girls at the bars (their "exotic" and a brown trophy to add to the blonde ones), white girls generally don't give Indian guys the time of day. That means that when an Indian guy ends up dating an Indian girl, she has already slept with a few white guys. Sucks.
Yeah. Because she is impure then. And I mean, it's not like Indian guys don't sleep with white girls either, do they?
What to do with the tainted Indian women? Who must be virgins and not have been known carnally by non Indian hands and tongues....shame shame shame....only Indian guys get to screw around without any hint of being spoilt by it.
^^ haha
on another note, p'haps this is a good time to divert the thread over to a discussion of the desi-fied angles to Grey's Anatomy? ...if Meredith were desi, would she like Alex, George, Surgeon Dude whose name they don't use enough to remember, or the Dr who's name as a dude I can't use (Mc something). or, if George were desi, would he be even more or less of a wuss?
The question confounding desi guys is this. white girl or a white washed indian girl? I would prefer the white girl over the white washed indian girl. with the a white washed indian girl you deal with indian looks and white baggage. A perfect compromise is white looks with indian baggage. India we go for that!!! lol. jk guys, don't take it too seriously
^^ arre
you're talking about a lot of our sisters, cousins and friends
(now pls. i know there's a Grey's Anatomy discussion waiting to burst out. Maureen Dowd wrote about it in column in the Ny Times for crimmy sakes)
In response to Bad Girl:
I'm not sexist, works both ways. I would totally understand if an Indian girl were upset if her Indian boyfriend slept with a lot of white girls. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Girls have my sympathy too, but since I am a guy, this is how I relate to it.
The point is is that it sucks if the girl you're dating and like has slept with other guys because then you have to picture her doing the nasty with them. It just rubs salt in the wound thinking it is a white dude because of the passive racism against white people our Indian parents ingrained into us during childhood. No dude wants to picture his Indian girlfriend giving some football player fraternity brother a hummer. Trust me.
Yeah, the slut.
Maybe you should deal with the 'passive racism' your parents ingrained into you first. That is the problem, not the jealous hypocrisy and desire for Indian girls to be virgins when you meet them.
Oh, one other thing. Presumably it's the thought of white boys getting their tongue and hands all over our brown skin that causes you so much mental torment. Can I ask, would you feel alright about it if your girl had been gangbanging with a bunch of desi guys all her life? Or would that be OK? So it's a race thing? Hmmmm.....
The problem is all in your head. Deal with it. We aren't going to stay virgins for sexual inadequate Indian guys like you anymore.
Just so all Indian guys know, I am only referring to the above, not Indian guys in general, who I love and lust over and think are sexy and cute.
Sanjay,
Er, they do here in the UK, especially in London. Not behaving like a narrow-minded misogynist with hypocritical double-standards towards women (regardless of whether they're white, desi, or anything else) probably helps, of course, especially if it veers into reverse racism too. White women do pick up on these things, you know.
Then it's up to the guy to "get over" the psychological baggage his parents have imposed on him, no ? We get all kinds of conditioned, brainwashed negative attitudes foisted on us by the older generation and from many aspects of Indian culture in general -- it's our responsibility to "deal with it".
Then one has to control one's imagination and not "picture" it at all. Focus purely on the relationship between you and the woman, and leave it at that. The same way one should behave towards any woman, regardless of whether or not she's South Asian. At least she deserves that much respect and privacy -- beyond a certain point, a woman's previous romantic history is none of our business, especially if we're aiming to pursue a healthy, mature relationship with her.
^^ true true. and now days everybody sleeps around, even in india
btw i'm verklempy about the lack of Grey-talk but i'm moving on
While I would much rather talk about Sendhil Ramamurthy and Grey's Anatomy, is it really possible for desis to be "racist" against white people? Biased or prejudiced, maybe. But to be racist suggests that you're in a position of power over the other group. Just the sociologist in me talking.
I don't agree with Sanjay, but I also don't think he has to confront any "passive racism" that he has. Maybe the issue is that he feels emasculated by white men (and this applies to many men of color). I say this out of genuine curiosity, not to start a fight.
The misunderstanding comes from the fact that most indian guys want to be with "indian" girls. I said most, but not all. And i think most indian girls raised in america would rather be with a "American" guys. I would say that you can generalize it to all the girls in america in that they prefer all American boys. Again the word most is the important word, i don't mean to generalize it to the entire population. I am an indian guy who has been with non indian girls as well as indian girls. For me the difference between the two was insignificant, other than for the skin tone. But most indian girls would complain the Desi guys tend to have more traditional views about their partners. No ... we are not looking for virgins who cook and clean for us. When I was with an indian girl, i did want a cultural connection, without which i didn't see the point of the relationship(as in i might as well be with a non-indian girl).
Do indian girls have this great sexual capital? I don't know, personally i don't see them having more sexual capital than any one else. The fact that a lot of indian guys prefer to go to india for marriage might actually in the long run put them in a tougher position. Simple law of supply and demand. if there are 10 guys and girls and 5 guys go back to india for marriage, that leaves 5 girls with no other alternative but to look for guys of another race.
And no girl wants to picture her boyfriend (Indian or white or otherwise) going down on his ex/some other girl, but shit happens, and you just deal with it. I don't know you, and I wouldn't want to presume to make judgments based on a few comments, so take Jai's well-intentioned advice to heart and move on!
Sahej: I'm all down for a huge, full-blown analysis of Grey's Anatomy but I don't want to threadjack...all I can say/ask is this: WTF is so great about Meredith Grey!?! And why, oh why, would Izzy risk her medical career like that?(I missed the second half of the finale so I'm clueless on how things actually ended and I refuse to kill my suspense by Googling the details!)
yeah i think generally feelings of anger (i don't think there is any other way to put it) stem more from what is referred to as "emasculation" than any "revese racism" kind of effect. "reverse racism" would imply a devaluaing of the other partner, which isn't the case here is it? i don't think emasculation is the right word, because it implies that men of color should strive to take up the banner of masculinity that, say, frat jocks carry. thats a pretty ugly masculinity. but, other than the over-sexualization of african american men, most men of color are under-sexualized in imaginings of popular culture. and there is often a reaction to this.
similiarly, men who are working class can feel the same resentment. to the extent this isn't racialized though so the volume or heat may appear lower
VBSF,
yeah i don't want to thread jack, but usually if a thread is drifting, it meanders off-topic. but now that a discussion is being had, i guess a Grey's Anatomy discussion is off topic. But i can't resist one or two slip-ups;
i don't think there's anything really all that special about Meredith, but the show revolves around her so it seems she's all that. George liking her has way more to do with Georgie boy's issues then Meredith. And i missed the early shows where Mc Doc first liked her, so i don't know what he saw in her. but she does have a likeable vulnerability coupled with an underlying strength; you get the feeling she's not afraid to live life and deal with the consequences.
Izzie, was straight tripping though. but i don't know how invested she is in her career versus being who she is. contrast with Christina who is too much about the career and not enough about being a person
you totally have to see the end of the show though. although i thought it was a bit over-dramatic, but still, must see tv
Lavanya,
While I would much rather talk about Sendhil Ramamurthy and Grey's Anatomy, is it really possible for desis to be "racist" against white people? Biased or prejudiced, maybe.
I'm ok with Grey's Anatomy, though it would be nice if there could be a Sepia component in there somehow.
As for whether Indian Americans can be racist -- strictly speaking, you're right. But when people of color adopt exclusivist attitudes and make presumptions about non-Indians' cultural values or sexual proclivities based purely on their ethnic background, it can be extremely hurtful, and every bit as bad as racism. Indians and other people of color do not get a free pass to propagate ignorant stereotypes!
We've also seen some major flare-ups of inter-ethnic hostility (mainly emanating from certain DJs on Hip hop radio stations in Philly and New York, but it's bigger than that). When African American DJs talk about "rat-eaters" and make songs mocking the people who died in the tsunami, that's a kind of racism too.
I don't agree with Sanjay, but I also don't think he has to confront any "passive racism" that he has.
What bothers me in Sanjay's comments isn't racism but the sexist double standard.
It's highly possible that with this above line of thinking you aren't really going to land an Indian woman who's tasted the other side because she'll probably expect you to think of her less as a trophy and more as an equal. With your own insecurities about your race and your apparently disdain for the other, it's baggage she probably will not want to deal with anyway. So you are safe brother. You don't really have to worry about dating any of them sluts who've apparently tasted the other side. Obviously you have larger things to deal with her which I'm assuming you are seeking help for.
I think you are making wide assumptions. All American does not spell WHITE, it simply spells someone from here.
Absolutely Lavanya. Racism is simply discrimination or a prejudicial attitude based on someone's race. This applies both ways.
OTH...
I heard that a baby get's it's intelligence from it's Momma..I hope it's true for Senthil
Really? I don't think so. I'm more like my dad - even with those talents you just have or don't have: it's weird how we can both draw, sing in tune, play musical instruments by ear, and other random weird shit like solving bizzarro visual puzzles, or drawing perfectly straight lines. My sis on the other hand, is more like my mom, though there are some cross-over traits. Strangely enough, I look more like my mom. Are intelligence and "talents" inheirited?? I'm curious. Who's got a good article/link? Paging Razib (genetics loving razib, not porno loving razib, s'il-vous-plait - heh heh).
AMEN! This assumption is one of my biggest peeves ever; second only to "situation is worse in x country than in y, therefore we should be happy with situation in y country."
All American may not spell white, but "all american" seems to implicitly imply white behaviour.
But still, why the obsession with white? Especially Sanjay, #19---I think you are out for trophy blondes, who in turn want trophy jocks, who in turn want trophy something else. No point going that route. Regular women will not particularly reject you for being desi.
I am more interested in the "desi being racist" part of the thread. Lavanya, I did hear that racism is used in a specific sense: it implies both prejudice and the power to hit out because of that prejudice. That is what you mean, isn't it? I would think it is possible, lots of desis are in positions of power aren't they?
i KNEW there was something about the way you kept looking at me!
PERVERT
bytewords,
if you can make explicitly implicit implications implying implications explicitly explicated, well, then i'm all for it.
just my .02 cents.
Who defined white behavior? Whites in the US don't behave the same way or have the same lives or belief systems as whites in say Ukraine or Spain or South Africa. So implying that "all american" means 'white' is trying to give 'white' some kind of status that is unattainable by others. Frankly I think everyone other then Americans are always trying to define what being American is. I have learnt it is ALWAYS about a state of mind and a state of existence and very little about the color of your skin, the food you eat or the work you do.
I think this 'fact' is wrong- mainly because we had the Sepia Destiny thread here which talked about how most females are looking for desi life companions, but of the "alterna-desi" variety, but there is lack of propensity....
I miss you Taz! **sniff**sniff**
AC and JOAT,
true, not all white populations are the same, and i realize the phrasing of my sentence may have implied that.
so let me clarify. i never have seen the term "all american" include a trait culled from any asian group, or till recently, hispanic and african american groups either. that is what i meant by "all american implicitly implies white behaviour", i didn't mean to say all whites are the same. the reason may be just historic, after all till the civil rights movement the US was a virtually a white country.
but it was a minor crib, i do believe that all in all, the US is inclusive. some terms are just hangovers and this, imo, the usual sense in which "all american" is used is one of them.
Couple notes:
Amardeep -- I agree with you. I don't think people of color have free passes to make ignorant comments. My point is that ignorance and racial bias is different from racism.
JaneOfAllTrades -- Err...I think my interpretation of racism is different from yours. Being prejudiced, while unexcusable, is one thing. Acting on that prejudice, if you're in a position of power, constitutes racism.
Bytewords -- I can see what you're saying. If I was a CEO and chose not to hire someone based on their race, then yes, that would be racist. On another note, I prefer not to date white boys. Does that make me racist? No, i think that means I'm just biased.
JOAT
I never left!!! I'm still here!!
The irony is that "The Da Vinci Code" has been funded through a Muslim financier and written, directed and acted by Christians:
That is too broad a generalization to make. Furthermore, based on my small sampling population (i.e., brown girls I know), I would disagree that most would rather be with "American" guys. By "American," I'm assuming you mean white?
Since this thread started off of the "News" tab ... I am posting my rant about "News" tab here.
- Whats up with the obsession with Kaavya??
- Is that the only Desi thing happening thats really matters??
- Man, 500K is not really a lot of money . Get a grip and more importantly get a life !!!!
Lavanya #46,
I agree.
In fact, I am not even sure dating preferences are a good barometer. You may have very good friends who are white, but may not want to date them for reasons which are your own. If you wanted my opinion then, I would still stop short of calling you biased. Though I would wonder why your preferences are the way they are.
But then, I can't stand the thought of dating boys and I claim to be not sexist :).
500K is not really a lot of money
Spik for yourself, brother :)! Some of us here are probably poverty-stricken graduate student types. I am.
the last sentence in #51 sounds horrible. if any of you pounces on me for that, i am going to personally come to wherever you are and give you hell for it.
Ms Fink Nottle,
The Author doesnt get all of the said money. I am not sure about the inner workings of the entertainment industry (Publishing wing), so I dont know what percentage actually get to the Author. But I am sure that significant sum goes to different involved parties. Bottomline is this Author cheated, got caught and thats the end of it.
Whats up with psycho-analyzing every detail of Author's behviour and the deal and all that, and in some cases reacing bizzare cultural conclusions?? The only thing I can say is, WTF?
RC, NOT to throw K-Gate wide open again...but yes,I know KV didn't get all the money by any means esp. in this case where a large percentage probably went to assorted people.
I was just making a funny (or so I thought) and heartfelt-poverty-stricken (:)) observation to what I thought was a general "500K is not really a lot of money" statement! I see you meant that that is not a lot of money to be paid in these circs.
Lavanya, while I agree with trying to differentiate between different kinds of racial prejudices and their intersections with power, class, etc., I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that "racism" unmodified by anything else is a really problematic way to discuss these issues. It tends to confuse things, flare up a lot of defensiveness, and otherwise interfere. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist--I'm saying that the racial hierarchy is so pervasive that it makes it difficult to talk about "racism" in this context without adding a lot of nuance to it.
Amardeep, ultimately, I think the problem is power and how you interact with it. In a post-ethnic U.S. elite, where race for some racial minorities gets increasingly separated from barriers to advancement while others (always Blacks) languish behind, it makes less sense to talk about things in strictly racial terms and more sense to start understanding someone like me (2nd gen, Indian-American, lgbtq, upper middle class background, male bodied, college educated + all kinds of other things) as part of a new elite that "transcends" race by ignoring the intersections of race and power. It's, in may ways, a replication of the same process that minorities went before as they were brought into the upper realms of the racial hierarchy (i.e. "White"). The only difference here is that we don't have white skin.
Another way to say this is that Whiteness is something more than skin color--an ideology, an ethnicity, a set of shared cultural presumptions, an ability to participate in a system of power...something. And we may need to find a new word for "Whiteness" because not all people in the new elite are people you would say have white skin.
This article by Justin Podur on the use of "people of color" as an idea is mildly instructive for middle-child minorities like Indian-Americans.
Of course your point about free passes is well taken--but presumably that should apply to everyone on the grounds of not being an idiot.
re #49:
I think it is a matter of timing for some Indian girls. I think generally most Indian girls born here go through their white phase. It usually starts in high school, continues through college, and then wears off around mid-20s, around the time they want to get married. Then they look at the white guy they are dating and end it.
My friends and I have discussed various theories to explain why. My theory is that Indian girls are bomarded with pop culture when they are young so they are used to thinking white guys are good looking. Then, when they hit their mid-20s, they grow out of pop culture a little, and they also realize that they don't want to marry a white dude and they start looking for the nearest Indian guy in residency.
A friend of mine gave a more interesting theory to toy with. He thought that the reason Indian girls went white for that period of time was because they were rebelling against their father. It goes like this: their Indian father was strict and an a-hole to them while they were growing up, and when they have some freedom, the way they rebel or prove their independence is to go out with a white (or black) dude that their old school dad would not approve of. This is subconscious.
While the reason why can be debated, from anecdotal experience (seeing about 70 Indian girls go through this over the time period, including my sister) the time period is usually dead on. I think after that time period, nearly all Indian girls decide they want an Indian guy. The sad thing is to hear it from a girl after she married a white guy, sad for the girl who says I would have been happier with an Indian guy.
One qualifier - in this age group, white dudes usually only go out with attractive Indian girls; the cherry picking is in full effect (in the selective - not sexual - sense of the term). You rarely see otherwise. As such, the above only holds true for attractive Indian girls who white guys will ask out (lighter skin, sharper features, taller, and thinner).
Ok, time to check out Tucker Max.
uh, ok -- as it's been repeatedly brought up on this thread, and on others, many desi women are not that attracted to white men (including myself)... so could sanj and sanjay (or are you the same person?) please stop trying to over-analyze this non-issue and move on?!
for every desi woman who's been "bombarded with pop culture" as Sanj claims, there's another who's grown up on bollywood and appreciates brown eye candy, thank you very much.
It's interesting that there is such a backlash (one could argue even a sexist backlash) against Desi women who date white men, as well as various theories expounded as to explain such a phenomenon.
But to be honest, I've actually noticed the opposite: there are many more Desi men who date non-Desi women (generally, but not always, white women) as opposed to the other way around.
" as it's been repeatedly brought up on this thread, and on others, many desi women are not that attracted to white men (including myself)."
:) Why does it seem so important to keep making this point? I'm not even sure its necessarily true. Is this a form of somehow proving being 'brown/proud enough' :)? I've met plenty of desi women who're not so concerned with colour as much as the *qualities* that the man has. Yes, desi men can be incredibly attractive...but then so can men of all sorts of hues.
Often, especially for desi women brought up in India, the it is not so much 'colour' as much as specific shared cultural components (shared love of music, language, movies) etc that they focus on when they choose desi men.
Re #57:
To my mind, the "timing" is more this: part of being 'young' is having specific/often culturally influenced notions of what an attractive partner is e.g. tall, slim, brown, great body etc etc...but then as you get older *and if you have the chance to experience different surroundings/people* (if you don't get the chance, of course nothing will particularly change!) and ALLOW yourself to think beyond your self-created notions of "I find only these physical qualities attractive"...you will see that a short man can be attractive, ditto plump/black/white whatever ... as long as he has other qualities one values!!!
Ms Fink Nottle, i agree generally with you about #60, but, its not always about sharing cultural similarities. people can actually dig on almond eyes, brown skin for its own sake without any cultural qualifers. it takes all sorts out there
The average american joe has some pretty strange notions about Indian women ..submissive, eager to please, demure...this stereotype is quite widespread and I find it disturbing...
I threw something out there from my own personal observations. taz shot me down cold. while i'm speachless, i'm thinking Does it really matter? If an Indian girl wants to be with an Americanized man so what? and defenitely vice versa. But what concerns me is are we seeing an increasing number of unmarried indian woman(who would rather be in a relationship)? As for alterna-desi... good luck.
You rarely see otherwise. As such, the above only holds true for attractive Indian girls who white guys will ask out (lighter skin, sharper features, taller, and thinner).
Come on man!! I am sure those are the same features you look at before you ask a girl out.
This does not hold true in my experience..i have seen a few white- desi couples and what has always struck me is that the desi girl is pretty average looking ..not the kind desi guys usually lust after..white guys tend to prefer the more "desi" looking desis while desi guys by and large prefer the caucasian looking desis...
I think that there is a little bit of generalisation going on within this thread, although some of the comments are undoubtedly true for many people. With regards to desi life here in the UK, something which many of the consciously-rebellious young Indian women seem to do (especially if they have a thing about being -- and being seen to be -- as "unconventional" as possible) is not just deliberately going for white guys, but also specifically targetting black guys and Muslim men (especially Pakistanis).
Some of them are doing it for sincere reasons, of course, but many do not. The latter group do not always "grow out" of this "phase", and I've seen such women train-wreck their lives by the time they hit 30.
I've noticed this too, although of course there are plenty of exceptions. It's obviously going to depend on the individual, but I think it's a natural (and entirely understandable) reaction on the part of the woman concerned to the way such women are often treated/regarded within our culture.
CAD,
Maybe it's just a matter of different personal experiences, but I would have to disagree with you here. I have a feeling that the desi women concerned are just more discreet about their dating activities in this regard.
Also, the number of desis marrying non-desis appears to be higher amongst desi women compared to men (I believe someone here on SM recently quoted some research-derived statistics in this matter too, at least in terms of the South Asian population in the US -- I have found the same to be true here in the UK as well although this is purely anecdotal on my part). The reasons, as always, are obviously going to vary according to the specific woman, but honestly-speaking I'm not surprised this happens -- South Asian culture is more conservative towards (and more demanding on) women compared to men, so in some cases dating and/or marrying a non-desi is possibly viewed as a "way out" of all this.
*I have a feeling that the desi women concerned are just more discreet about their dating activities in this regard.
.....Bearing in mind some of the double-standards and prejudices prevalent amongst some quarters of desi society here in the West, both amongst South Asian men (of all ages) and the older-generation in general too.
Jai:
Could be. Although, I'm not necessarily talking about just dating, but marriage as well (sorry, I didn't specify that in my comment). But yes, the different standards for Desi women as opposed to Desi men are different, and surely one can't discount that. From my observations, I have noticed that if a Desi man marries a non-Desi, the tacit assumption is that the kids will take after their father, and hence, will be "Desi". On the other hand, a Desi woman who marries a non-Desi seems to suggest that the kids may not be so Desi.
Yes, I do agree with you about Desi culture being more conservative towards women on marital matters. I made that comment speaking from personal experiences. For example, a large number of my male cousins date white girls. Though they do not shy away from Desi girls, they seem to date white girls exclusively. I once asked one of my cousins why he tended to date white girls, though he speaks often of Desi girls that he finds attractive. His response was: "Desi women are too serious; having sex with a white girl is practically no baggage, but with a Desi girl, everything becomes so much more loaded" (this comment is embedded with all sorts of assumptions, classifications, and racial characterizations). I have heard this comment not only from my cousin, but from many other Desi males. These types of comments seem pervasive within our community. In contrast, I have rarely heard a Desi female take a similar line, ie "Desi men get serious too quickly; having sex with a white guy is practically no baggage". This is why I made my comment, which is based on personal experiences (and hence, I am not making an argument here, just an observation).
Neela asma so gaya....
Good night :)
CAD,
Although, I'm not necessarily talking
Apologies, I was referring to marriage too. Again, this is just anecdotal, but the incidence of marrying white people (or non-desis) here in the UK appears to be higher amongst South Asian women than men. I have met lots of women who have done so, but comparatively few guys, although of course the latter does happen too.
However, overall the vast majority of desis (of either gender) here end up marrying other desis -- I believe the percentage is markedly higher for our counterparts over in the US.
To be honest with you this statement is often correct, but the reasons are complex -- I think it's to do with the added complications of one or both parties being unsure of the other's overall intentions pre- or post-bonking, plus some of the conditioned awkwardness and mixed-feelings both parties sometimes have in the back of their minds about engaging in this kind of activity due to parental influences & desi environmental factors, plus the woman having added concerns about whether the guy is going to fall into the usual prejudicial desi mindset about her if she does indeed display a greater "baggage-free" attitude to getting involved with him.
Similar point to the one I made in my previous paragraph -- there are plenty of desi women around here in the UK who do have this kind of approach, and not just in relation to white guys either (although not necessarily because of "desi men getting too serious"). We may just have socialised in different circles ;) To assume that there are not numerous young Western-based desi women who engage in one-night-stands, quick-flings, or otherwise short/mid-term relationships with non-desi men (either in their country of residence or when they go on "girlie holidays" overseas) due to the perceived "strings-free" nature of such entanglements is not quite an accurate assessment of how people sometimes behave in real life ;)
In any case, I think the women concerned may just feel that there is less cultural and familial baggage to deal with in terms of non-desi men -- this may actually be true to some extent, but not always, and the lines can sometimes become blurred between a desi woman accurately gauging the desi guy's personality & ideas in this matter, and becoming prejudiced herself (and jumping to all kinds of conclusions about the guy's presumed negative attitude and potential behaviour) purely because the other party is South Asian (or Indian, etc etc).
Good night to you too, although it is approximately mid-day here in London ;)
Now that I think about it, making generalizations is too complicated. If there are inter-racial marriages and dating, maybe the two parties just simply fell in love. Different strokes for different folks.
One thing I have noticed-- and this is absolutely not representative of all Desis involved in inter-racial relations, but this phenomenon stands out in my mind-- is that both partners agree on certain stereotypes of the Desi community. For example, the partners of Desis often view Desis in a particular way, and the Desi him/herself markets this. This "particular" way about how Desis presumably are is: Desis as smart, exotic, spiritual, and hailing from an ancient, advanced civilization. Again, I have not noticed this trend with all the Desi - non-Desi couples I know, but a substantial part.
Jai:
While I was writing my second comment, you had already posted your response :) I bet that as I am writing this one, you have already responded to my second comment.
Oh, no, you're right, I wasn't making that kind of assumption. I was strictly speaking about the comments that float around in desi circles. And with all of the social control that is based on "What is the samaj going to say?!) which regulate gender norms, I was paying heed to spoken words.
I haven't met many in the US (but that may be because in my youth, I usually steered clear of exclusively desi cliques, and hence, wasn't really surrounded by large and concentrated numbers of desis my age). One thing that may be a confounding factor when we are comparing the US and the UK is that the Indian population specifically (NOT the South Asian population, but the majority of the South Asian population in the US is Indian)numbers a little more than 1.8 million, whereas the UK has a higher population (I think?). We are also dispersed, save for a few metropolitan cities, and hence cultural and social practices may play out a bit differently than in the UK; that is, the desis here interact with the US society, and the desis in the UK interact with the UK society and though there are similarities between the US and UK, there are also differences.
It was meterologically inaccurate on my part to say "good night". Actually, here it is morning, and I haven't slept a wink; I thought about going to bed, but it was 5:30, it was already daylight, and I thought, "what's the point of going to bed now? Too many things to do!!"Sorry, two disconnected thoughts here. We are dispersed here in the US, and so it might be a tad bit easier to not be so inserted into the Desi community, and subject to its forces and influences. Secondly, Desis in the US are contextualized within the US society, as the UK Desis are situated within the UK society.
Which doesn't mean that Desis aren't subjected to the Desi community's dynamics and influences at all, but perhaps the extent of and the constant exposure to Desi societal dynamics whereby the numbers of Desis of all generations are amassed.
I really don't know if my posts have made sense; forgive me.
CAD,
Your posts do make sense, don't worry. You don't need to clarify all the intricacies involved -- I think most people here (at least those of us living in the West) will understand the context of what you're basically saying, and in any case much of this has already been debated on SM numerous times before.
Which is perhaps better than the route we have taken here in the UK:
- From FOB "conquered natives" who were easy targets for ridicule, prejudice, verbal abuse and occasionally physical attacks;
- To "(South) Asians are cool" as a result of UK-born desis jumping on the black gangsta bandwagon and acting accordingly, along with the input of Apache Indian, Bally Sagoo, and (especially) the GGM crowd, combined with the infiltration of some elements of desi fashions (esp. for women) and bhangra into the mainstream culture, and of course the continuing popularity of Indian restaurants here;
- To potential suicide bombers, terrorists, OBL-supporters, and "jihadist revolutionaries in our midst."
Some stereotypes are more positive than others ;)
I'm not convinced yet that this statement is untrue. I've personally seen that desi women DO carry considerably heavier baggage then non desi women when it comes to dating/sex etc. And I don't necessarily find it something to be ashamed/embarrassed about. We have deeply embedded beliefs that we were raised with in the Indian culture, it doesn't get undone so easily especially if you grew up in a conservative home as most desi's in the west tend to.
I don't any desi families where the girls (more so then boys) were encouraged to "date". It was almost always unacceptable no matter how long the families had been here. And sex and it's pleasures were discovered by most well into their 20s and as part of a double life. That fact alone adds to the baggage. Heck the fact that desi males judge us differently adds to the notion of purdishness.
This isn't to say that women aren't indulging in some no strings attacked nookie in private but expecting a desi woman to be unabashed about her sexuality in front of society/family/peers is something that's going to take a while.
Some of the above comments remind me of another friend's theory (I have a lot of friends with theories) as to why Indian girls will only sleep with white guys until the end of the white phase. He reasons that Indian girls can sleep with white guys and it won't be a big deal because if the guy talks, at worst only a group of white guys will find out. Also, since in the back of her mind she is not going to marry a white guy, sleeping with them doesn't hurt and doesn't have any consequence.
However, if she sleeps with an Indian guy, then there is the risk that all of the Indian "community" finds out if the guy talks, which would be a catastrophe at home. Also, and perhaps more significantly, she won't sleep with the Indian guy because she herself has a double standard in her values, i.e., "it is ok to sleep with white guys because they are white and meaningless, but Indian people matter so I can't sleep with them casually."
In the end, sucks to be the brown guy.
there's survey's that have been done that women are not necessarily the more gung-ho ones for marriage. if you think about it, the whole logic here is whack. you better get with desi dudes otherwise you'll be sorry when you want to get married and we're not around. neener neener. it might be comforting, but is it true?
Awww, baby, I'm sawwwy! Next time you have personal observations, just say so instead of saying that it's a "fact."
For instance, "For me personally, as well as all my desi girls, it does matter. Though most of them date white guys, I see them gravitating towards white guys more as a Plan B, i.e. there is a certain amount of "dating the empire, perpetuating colonialism through dating" guilt associated with dating a white guy that a girl has to confront and get over when they date a white guy. Which we will only talk about in safe spaces with other desi girls. Most would like to date the Alterna-desi guys, that are schooled in political theory, progressive ideals, didn't vote for Bush, and are supportive of independent career driven women that would rather rally then cook dinner. But those types of desi guys are few and far between, at least with my girls. So since we priortize our hyphenated bicultural values and this Americanized concept of being appreciated for being 'independent & career driven', we gravitate to whoever fits those ideals, regardless of race. But, wouldn't it be nice, if there was a guy out there that would fit our cultural desi values as well as our poltical values?"
I'm not saying that is a fact, just a personal observation. And for me, and my girls, it does matter... ;-)
It's no different then how men would operate. I've lost count of how many non desi women I've come across who've been dumped by desi boys who decided to go the 'traditional' route. One particular person I know personally who is in a significant political position in Chicago and will potentially be up for a large political position in the near future was with a white girl for 9 years when he decided to finally introduce her to his family. They hated her. He dropped her fairly quickly and within 6 months had an arranged marriage to a girl the parents picked. He was born/raised here!
No more or less then it sucks to be a brown woman. If you believe it sucks for you it probably will.
i think there is something of an age-line trend, in some cases. In your teens/20's, consequences are different, identity is different. apart from baggage within our culture that discourages dating; people in their teens and early 20's don't put all that much stock in particularly who they date, although with exceptions. i think around mid 20's, a person is really forming their total identity; who are they going to be. and dating, at this age becomes part and parcel of one's overall life more so than before. thats when you might have a kind of crisis situation in terms of some people are like, i need to date an X ethnic person. I think middle 20's is a key time when desis are working out how we're going to go about being desi in the future, and all that. BUT, by the end of this period, it matters much less. One's identity is formed. A person is who they are, no matter who they date. dating someone from Ulan Bator (i met a really cool person from Ulan Bator) does not make one mongolian, nor does it mean one does not know who Lata Mangeshkar is, or the fact there's a ghazal concert in a couple weeks that you want to go to.
i think the most sturm and drang is in the middle 20's. after that, its only important if your partner can help you go forward in who you are. i think also, women more so than men, if they are not careful, can lose their own identity in a relationship
Re #62 "people can actually dig on almond eyes, brown skin for its own sake without any cultural qualifers."
Sahej, yes, it's true that people can actually dig specific physical features without any cultural qualifiers, although much of our concept of beauty is culturally ingrained. What I meant was that what you find attractive often 'expands' as you grow older/more experienced . So, even though you might dig ONLY almond eyes, dark skin etc originally, as time passes and you interact with attractive-in-other-ways people with say, other shaped eyes and skin colour you ALSO begin to find other sorts of eyes etc attractive.
Sahej AMEN to that!!! You said it right on. Talking about dating baggage for a 22 year old is not the same as a 32 year old.
how?
hmmm, i don't know if i can answer that, its something i have heard "wise" women - older women tell friends/acquietences. maybe it has to do with socialization. its a common enough problem, even Karen Armstrong recently said she made a mistake when she met Lance Armstrong and sold her stuff to move to France to be with Lance Armstrong so he could train. Only to have their marriage fall apart in the end leaving her without her bearings.
I can't say I'm very knowledgeable about the whole thing, someone else might have a better idea
I think that's more true in cases where the man is the more dominant partner in the relationship. It can happen to highly-educated, normally strong-minded independent professional Indian women too, if the man is earning even more than her (significantly more).
It can also happen if the woman is in the relationship against her parents' approval and is "doing it anyway", at least if the guy concerned isn't necessarily under the same familial pressures himself.
Obviously there are plenty of exceptions to both of the above scenarios (which are not necessarily mutually-exclusive), but these things are indeed known to happen.
If I may...
Women tend to be more self sacrificing in a general relationship, especially desi women. It's how we were raised and the nurturing side comes out fairly quickly in a relationship. Tending to other people's needs can make one steer away and forget one's own needs. Look at our parents generation. How many women in that generation do we know who've found their own identity, done their own thing and put the man and children in their life second?
@joat, #86
*if* you are not going to take this the wrong way, here is something to think about.
if you are with a man who realizes this *and* does not take advantage of it you will both be very happy. it is not a bad thing after all to be selfless. i would think many men are decent enough that they will not exploit a nice sentiment, but return the favor.
I never said it was a bad thing to be selfless but everything in moderation. I was simply offering an explaination for how a woman could lose herself in a relationship. However, too often people take each other for granted in a relationship. Selflessness should go both ways and in an ideal world a partner would notice and reciprocate. Sometimes in the desi culture women go overboard and live only for their family and children. It's wonderful if you get returns but if there are no returns it can only lead to resentment. Best is to live a little for yourself as well.
true true JOAT. i would say its not just a desi thing though, the nurturing problem is more evenly distributed. its a wonderful thing but i think you're right, moderation and reciprocity. its why Feminism is still very neccessary, seeing as inter-personal dynamics need much egalatarianism. this is the next wave of feminism perhaps; equality in the public sphere expanded in the private sphere
I think Desi women should be very careful while interacting with white women. The demanding inconsiderate ways of white women has led to white men taking refuge in the arms of more traditional Asian (East Asian) women. I am sure the desi women dont want their men to follow the path of white men in running after Asian women.
Lets face it, desi men want certain things from a woman. They want a certain level of deference and respect. No self respecting desi man wants his wife/girl friend to interject in a conversation between him and his friends or roll her eyes and make faces especially in front of his family and friends.
We desi men are basically looking for women to behave like our moms. Demureness, obedience, shyness are qualities we desi men are attracted to kinda like how our dads were attracted to our moms a few decades back.
Upon further reflection, I think we are all getting too carried away with making generalizations about inter-racial dating and marriage. Perhaps we notice inter-racial couples more because they stand out due to their difference in light of the fact that the politics of race, ethnicity, and class are contentiously intertwined in any society where there are immigrants and their descendents. But I also know plenty of Desis who date, marry and prefer Desis. There is both diversity as well as trends in regards to Desi dating and marriage patterns; that is to say, one can make an both generalizations and specifications. Furthermore, the phenomenon of inter-racial dating, marriage, and love-making is not exclusive to Desi diasporans, but to many other ethnic groups as well. For example, I have met more than a few Arabs in Europe, both male and female, who have married Europeans and have raised a family together.
I say, let others date and marry who they want, and stick to the preferences that personally rock your own boat. Each to his/her own. And anyway, inter-racial marriages and copulation has existed since time immemorial (though the degree of the rates of such a phenomenon vary according to each society and era.)
--Cheap Ass Desi
Now that we are on the topic, I think desi men quite righly place a big premium on virginity of our wives. Thats why a lot of us wont mind marrying a good white girl who took a virginity pledge when she was 9 over an uppity desi woman who is not a virgin.
I agree with the desi brother above who was revolted by the thought of his wife being deflowered by a rapacious african man. Would any desi man here be willing to share his mango 'guthlee' with an african man? Then how can one live with the thought that his wife was ravaged like a 'guthlee' by some random man from Africa?