Abhi - the main issue is scarcity of seats in prestigious Medical, Engineering and Management institutes. For example annual intake of *ALL* IITs is same as annual intake of MIT.

Indian Express had a great article wherein the columnist compared this scarcity to scarcity of gas, scooter pre-1990s in India. Higher Education is one last strangle hold of government so as the protesters are saying this is all about politics and politicians trying to hold on to some power.

Won't last long IMO - politicians clinging on that is.

Great entry abhi. I think this is a super important issue that is never objectively discussed. The wierd thing is that my mum and I discussed this issue over the phone too. She complained that her mood was "off" because of the reservations and quota system.

I also agree with affirmative action if it is properly administered but I don't think that is possible in a country so populous and one with such limited access to primary education. The fact is that kids who score a 95% are finding it difficult to get into a decent college/univ. The caste issue only comes up because everyone wants a shot at a decent life and there aren't any real alternatives if you don't get good grades and/or get into the right college.

The fact that post-secondary institutions including IIM, Birla, IIT etc have mushroomed whereas primary education is ridiculously under-funded is also something that will eventually catch up the the economic well-being of the country.

PS: Personally I don't think we (mutineers of South Asian origin) should care about the derision heaped on us by the Indian blogosphere. Jai Canada!

A lot of backward castes are financially well-off in urban areas. Not so much in the villages. I want to know if there are statistics on how many students, especially the backward castes, are from urban and rural areas. I would assume that a lot of the college population comes from cities and towns instead of villages. If that is the case, a big increase in the quota system would be the wrong move. Ofcourse there are other more important factors, but this is something I dont have any information about.

What about 3000 years of class oppression?... The final decisions will likely be driven by politics anyway. India’s voting poor outnumber the voting middle-class and the rich

Caste and class are different. The endogamous nature of caste, and racial groups is the key to understanding the issue. Countries with disparites with between such groups, especially ones where the disadvantaged group is the majority, tend to have conflict (Indonesia, former Yugoslavia), quotas (India, Malaysia) or dictators (Iraq under Saddam Hussien, Cuba).

Are there more lower caste or upper caste people in India and what are the respective percentages?

Affirmative action is the cheap way out. Instead of actually spending money on improving the quality of pre-university education throughout India so that students from all backgrounds have a level playing field, the government would rather just pull a political stunt like this to keep their votebanks. While I really feel for the undercastes (Patent Pending), this is just a band-aid solution.

Is it unacceptable to even entertain the idea that perhaps there might be some inherent difference between european-americans and afro-americans and "latinos" (who in the US are more or less spanish speaking american indians) that causes them to be represented disproportionately in high IQ setting ? Perhaps this is one topic that should be studied in depth; lets not miss the answer because we don't want to look. Similarily, might there be some inherent difference between the upper castes and lower castes that account for the disproportionate levels of success of brahmins ? I am no fan of Hitlerian eugenics programs because they are scientifically wrong. But that does not mean every human is created equal with equal potential at everything and that human races and castes contain equal proportions of people with talents.

Are there more lower caste or upper caste people in India and what are the respective percentages?

Short Answer: Yes. (See this). Non-quota receiving groups make up 25-35% (of this hindu groups 15-30%) of the population depending on whose estimates you believe.

Long Answer: It's complicated, depends on your definition of upper/lower caste, whether you include non-hindus and keep in mind the percentages and level of disparities vary greatly regionally along a general north-west to south-east cline.

the way it works is that the quota can only be filled if there are enough appicants. statistics show that there are frequently not as many applicants as there are seats available for them under teh quota system, and these seats are thus then kept empty. A solution for this would be to give the remaining unfilled quota seats away to the open category once applications were received after a particular date.
Also, there was some controversy earlier in the reservations category for women that was introduced almost a decade ago, in that for every seat filled under the women 's reservation, there was one less seat available in the open category. it was totally sadistic demand and supply.
its most important for primary education and the grassroots education to be available to all. thats where reservations are needed.... in the villages and slums where the attitude needs to be changed. teachers need to be given incentives. When a large percentage of rural children cant do the basic 3 R's, how are they going to take advantage of the quotas in higher education? The teachers have no incentive to teach these kids. Whats the point? It all needs to work together hand in glove.
As an urban educated Indian, I personally am not against quotas if it ACTUALLY benefits the people it is meant to, but at the same time i dont want my life to depend on substandard professionals. Empower people by all means, but do it the right way. Through Excellent and consistent primary and secondary education, and a simultaneous change in attitudes. This force is only going to antagonise the other students and create an unhealthy academic/professional environment.
Quotas are only a temporary solution, and unncessary in my opinion to increase them any further. If anything, work on attitudes and stagger quotas so that they can be removed in the next half century. And think long-term.

Is it unacceptable to even entertain the idea that perhaps there might be some inherent difference between european-americans and afro-americans and "latinos" (who in the US are more or less spanish speaking american indians) that causes them to be represented disproportionately in high IQ setting ?

It's a dumb, simplistic, not to mention racist idea. Kinda like saying that India is poor because Indians have a low IQ. There is so much more to it than that.

This time magazine observation is totally stupid.
"classified matrimonial ads often list caste as a principal criterion in the search for a suitable spouse. In the countryside, caste defines not just social status and employment opportunities, but also
access to education. "

Are they telling that in America there are no such Ads. Open any paper in USA and you will see
SWF seeks White male etc etc. That doesnt mean America discriminates on the basis of race.
Marriages are a personal thing people prefer certain castes thats their business.
Can time magazine find one ad which says only upper castes need apply.
Any way in USA There is no mandatiry affirmative action. Blacks are more or less at the same levels
as Dalits are in India. At least when you compare the rest of US population with blacks.

The whole American/European media is fixated with caste. And it makes good news whenever they talk about caste system in India. But the reality is that caste doesnt matter in urban India. Not that I know of.I have studied there and lived there for long . It does matter in Rural areas but how many Rural area student are we expecting after the Quota increase may 5-10. Are quotas going to improve the lot of lower caste in India- No never. These quotas will be gobbled up by the urban rich "OBC".Most of these guys, I bet themselves didnt know they were OBC's till they read the list from Mandal

I can accept the genetic argument may be "dumb" (ie false); I can accept it to be simplistic, but tarring and feathering an idea by labeling it "racist" (i suppose you mean it considers that human races differ from each other) is silly. "Racist" does not mean anything..its like saying heart disease is "racist" because it affects one group of humans (desis) more than it does WASPs. Regardless, if it can be proven to be false that different human races may have varying proportions of people with certain genetic attributes, I will accept it. However, recent finds make that look unlikely.

It seems this is all vote bank politics as usual in India. The pepole who stand to benefit from this policy far outnumber those who do not. When elections come the next time around the Congress will have at least one "achievement" it can sell. Merit, common sense, fairness et al be damned.

The hogwash about "3,000 years of a strictly codified social pecking order" is just that, hogwash. For a number of years there has been talk of introducing a bill that would reserve 33% of seats in the Parliament and the state legislatures for women (they have 33% representations in the village panchayats). However, this bill has not been introduced in Parliament. I guess rectifying "3,000 years of a strictly codified social pecking order" does not apply if you are a woman.

I believe the simple reason this bill has not been introduced in parliament is because all the bigwig politcians who make the decisions are scared to lose their seats. They don't fight elections at the village level so let's hvae 33% reservation there but not in my backyard.

Fuck all these Indian politicians. As long their seat is safe for them and their families the country can go to hell.

Abhi i understand that being a NRI, or a person of India orgin or whatever you may call it, things going on in India don't directly effect any of you mutineers. Especially, the upheavals of the indian educational system. But, since you guys run a blog based solely on South Asia, i.e India. It only makes sense you would atleast report on something this big, happening in the country, if not really provide your opinion on it (like you have with this post). You guys cover so many stories directly from India, which in no way effect you at all, so it felt a bit odd that something this big was not even mentioned.

Also, the thing about 3000 years of caste/class oppression? See right here you do answer your dilemma on opinionating on something like this, this is the usual observation of someone outside India as they don't really have any way of understanding the real situation in the country. Like so many commenters above have said this is simply vote-bank politics being played, where politicians are gambling the future of so many indian kids just to win some state elections. These protests are only the preview of what lies ahead, this time it might be worse then Mandal I.

Time Asia has mis-captioned the photo of the medical students protesting. Also the part about colonials not educating dalits is wrong.

"Regardless, if it can be proven to be false that different human races may have varying proportions of people with certain genetic attributes, I will accept it. However, recent finds make that look unlikely."

What "recent finds"?

Anand,

Let me break it down for you. "Caste" is an artificial construct. Genetically, there is no such thing. Therefore, you cannot "analyse" any alleged underlying genetic factors determining IQ. It is like trying to claim that people living in New York are inherently more intelligent than people living in San Francisco, and attempting to base this on some kind of genetic component.

"I wanted the students to continue their hunger strike and I wanted them to ultimately capitulate."

Excellent Abhi, I wish the anti-reservation students/Activists would go to any small village and see the reality of Caste system. Because I've seen it all in my village ad my friends circle.

I would like to share my experience here....
While I was doing my Bachelor of Engineering(B.E) in Tirupati(Andhra Pradesh), some of my classmates were dalits. I will nevet forget a guy whose father was daily labourer(he used to earn some 60 rupees per day). If not for reservations he would not stand a chance of getting into engineering college. He was really poor in studies intially because he used to struggle to understand english, but as we entered 3rd year of Engineering, he was doing far better then most students in our class, including me. After finishing, B.E he got admission in prestigous IISc,Banglore. He is now working in a big IT company. If not for reservations he would have ended up same as his father.

My village has a dalit president now(who used to work in our house), I cannot imagine my family allowing a dalit to be a village president without reservations.

The problem with these previliged urban upper caste students is that they dont know anything about reality of caste in Indian society

But, since you guys run a blog based solely on South Asia, i.e India

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

These 'guys' run a blog based on the South Asian DIASPORA with a particularly American bias.

As I understand it Sepia Mutiny was set up to give voice to American Desis and give an American Desi perspective on issues and bring to life the voice and experience and perspective of young Americans of South Asian ancestry. As it happens people from elsewhere in the diaspora, Canada, UK relate to Sepia Mutiny too. So it is a blog for the Desi Diaspora - Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi.

Since it has become hyper successful, people from India read it too, and mistakenly presume what you (a little arrogantly) assert, that it is 'a blog based solely on South Asia ie: India'

You have to re-orient yourself and understand the Sepia Mutiny vibe. SM does not have a responsibility to blog on anything except what interests its writers. If they write on India, they do it from an unashamedly America Desi diaspora perspective. It certainly does not have a responsibility to do what you or anyone else thinks it should do, or write on anything that the incidental audience (Indians in India) think it has an urgency to write about.

It is important you understand this, so you appreciate the purpose and reason that Sepia Mutiny exists.

Of course people will write about India, there is no propriety right on writing about what anyone wants to. But the assumption you make that Sepia Mutiny is 'a blog based solely on South Asia ie: India' is so incorrect, so WRONG, that it needs to be corrected.

Peace and Love!

I hope the anti-reservation protesters fail miserably. Reservation will provide an opportunity for a large number of members of the Backward Communities to gain entry into Engineering and Medical colleges. These new engineers and doctors will attract huge dowries when matrimonial alliances are forged; the dowry money in turn will increase their spending power and this will result in enormous sums of cash being pumped into an already booming economy. Retailers living on this boom will incur tremendous financial benefits and will enrol their sons and daughters in private colleges for Engineering/Medical course and Dentistry/Nursing respectively! This new breed of professionals will satisfy the increasing demand for their trade in the rapidly emerging economy and if there is a surplus, will set sail to the US and Europe. The banks will have coffers overflowing with Euros and Greens, a billion millionaires, the streets of Cochin will be paved with gold. Ouch! These damn mosquitoes; can never get rid of these bitches!
Peace

I fully agree with "Indianoguy". The debate in India is completely hijacked by the vocal and assertive upper middle class! A pertinent perspective by the Editor of "Outlook" magazine:
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060605&fname=Col+Vinod+%28F%29&sid=1

Here is the new mantra: Don't do anything that will 'endanger' India's rise as the greatest nation on Earth, don't de-rail India becoming a Super-Duper Superpower by doing anything that threatens the middle class, don't do ANYTHING to help the poor. Doing so makes you not only a socialist, but anti-national. The poor must wait patiently for the trickle down effect to take effect.

In the meantime, Indian democracy speaks with grace and simple eloquence: there are more poor voters than middle class ones, even those who live on virtually nothing can vote, making them the equal of the rich and high and mighty. And with that vote comes power - the power to make sure that they are not forgotten.

Caste" is an artificial construct. Genetically, there is no such thing.

yes, genetically you're right. but the problem lies in the social effects of this artificial construct. i have a sneaking suspicion it is a lot easier for wealthier, educated brown immigrants to see it as an artificial and irrelevant concept than for people who have actually been branded (and are still branded) 'Untouchable.'

i happen to live in a country where affirmative action works and works for indigenous people who have been historically discriminated against. it does not affect that voting powerhouse that is the white middle class because there's a smaller focus on quotas and a much bigger emphasis on scholarships and economic help, as well as academic and personal counselling and support groups for students while they study. maybe this would work in india rather than a focus on quotas, having scholarships for historically discriminated peoples?

also i think that the people who run this blog should be able to post on whatever they like, the only people they really have to 'reprazent' are themselves and their views, and i think they do a bloody good job of it too. people who want things whiter or browner can always look at the zillions of other blogs that exist, so there are heaps of people here who think you're brown enough for us!

Abhi,

While I fully understand that your perspective as a US citizen would be different from that of an Indian citizen, especially on matters such as this reservations issue, since you were any way blogging about the issue, you could have done better than depend on TIME magazine's perspective. As you very rightly mentioned, there are many better places to read about this issue.

I wanted revenge against all the people that think being part of the Brahmin-caste actually means something, or is worth mentioning in casual conversation.

May be those people are as much victims of the caste politics as the Dalits are? In your travels in India, have you interacted with sanitary workers, construction workers, taxi drivers, and other manual labor from the Brahmin community? Or has your interaction been limited to software engineers, MBAs and other such white collar types?

The labor market in Delhi and Mumbai is full of migrants from UP and Bihar, many of them Brahmins from the rural areas - no education beyond sixth or seventh class, no money to afford private education, no scope of getting government jobs because they belong to 'upper caste'. And when it comes to voting, they vote the same as poor people all over India - based on who pays more for their vote on Election day.

IndianoGuy commented about his SC friend working in an IT company now, and if he was not educated through the reservation system, this would have never happened. Great ! This is exactly what the policy aims to achieve. So, thanks to quota system, today, IndianoGuy and his friend both are in the same economic and social class. And yet, some years later, IndianoGuy's daughter has to score over 95% in an entrance exam for a professional or higher education, while his friend's daughter has to score only the qualifying marks. What's more, IndianoGuy has to bear the cost of education for his daughter, where as the Govt. would fund the cost of education for his friend's daughter.

Now, I want to ask IndianoGuy and others who support the current regime of reservations, who should ideally be the beneficiary of the system? The children of one who has already benefitted from the quota in the past (and thus joined the creamy layer) or other deserving and poor Dalit children?

If we read the dozens of blogs and print media articles on this issue, one common solution that emerges is to increase the focus and budgets on primary education. If we provide free and quality education for all students till the age of 15-16, there will be no need for any quotas in the graduation and post-graduation levels. But the politicians do not seem to want to improve quality at the primary education level and thereby make it tough for the private school franchise industry in the urban and semi-urban areas of the country.

I can still understand the logic behind the quota system for access to education till under-grad level. But why in higher education? I can also understand the logic behind quotas in Govt jobs.But why quotas for promotions as well? It goes to show that just like Brahmins and Kshatriyas of yore believing that certain occupations and priveleges are their birth right, the creamy layer of today's India feels that a quota system in every aspect of life is theur birth right. And this is hurting the real Dalits of India - the rural poor of all castes and communities. And the truly meritorious students.

One of the unfortunate by-products of reservations, is the increase in the number of private medical and engineering colleges, where one could simply buy a seat, by paying capitation fees or simply pay more through NRI quota. A friend of mine, who belongs to the creamy layer and is obviously a staunch supporter of the quota system every where, asked me once: "You guys cry hoarse that merit is compromised when an incompetent Dalit/OBC student gets into medical college. Then what about the incompetent, non-meritorious children and cousins of NRIs who come down to study medicine in Karnataka and Maharashtra? They will not be able to pass 12th class science paper in India. And yet, they become doctors and build huge hospitals.What about all the rich kids who pay huge donations and buy a medical or engineering seat out right? Isn't merit getting compromised there? If its alright for a rich kid to buy his seat, why is it not alright for an OBC/Dalit kid to sneak in with the help of quota system?"

I can't disagree with my friend. But where does this leave the quality of education in India? If we increase the number of seats, will it help assuage the demands of the non-reservation castes? What will it take us to provide compulsory, free and world class primary education to all children? What will it take us to make higher educational institutions be independent from govt interference? Can they ever follow the model of western educational institutions and learn to survive through industry-academia linkage?Why should the rural poor be made to bear the burden of these thousands who get subsidised higher education, and then leave the country?Can we expect students to start paying for the cost of their higher education through education loans?

Questions and more questions. We could discuss these issues to death and yet find that we are no way nearer to the answers. And if there are any answers, they are not tough ones.

Like Abhi says, yes, societies may also have collective Karma.And the Indian society may have to go through its collective Karma Phal, before redemption comes. If Indians and people of Indian origin do just one thing right - focus on primary education, primary health care and nutritious food for the rural poor, the individual and collective Karma will then ensure that all the other social ills will be gradually taken care of.

Jai Hind.

well said kumar n.

I just wikied "Demographics in India" to get some caste stats. The last census in India was apparently conducted in 2001.

"Population: 1,095,351,995 (July 2006 est.); 1,028,737,436 (2001 Census)
Scheduled Castes: 16.2% (2001 Census) Scheduled Tribes: 8.2% (2001 Census)"

25.4% of a billion people is a lot but it still shows that the problem lies in the lack of access to primary and secondary education and insane population growth rates.
Great comments guys... keep em' coming.

some excellent points made by Kumar N. another point is that it looks as if private colleges that don't receive government aid will still have to institute quotas except for minority-run private colleges that don't accept government aid. why shouldn't all private colleges that don't receive government aid either be required to implement quotas or all private colleges that don't receive government aid be exempted from this requirement? why not affirmative action across-the-board?

No, that was NOT well-said, Kumar. Pallavi, it's simple etiquette: if Kumar is going to write such a long comment, he obviously has so much to say about this subject that he should be creating a post for his personal blog, which he could then leave a link to in the comments section here. Some of us read Sepia Mutiny on mobile devices and scrolling through all that is massively annoying and totally unnecessary.

As for Jatin, who cluelessly thinks this blog is about "India", check your reading comp skills, son. If you actually had been reading this blog, you wouldn't have said something so unbelievably wrong.

What's hilarious is your own comment contains the very reason to stay away from posts like this-- these bloggers are fucked if they do, fucked if they don't. If they don't cover it, there's much hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth on the part of India-focused types. If they do cover it, it's invalid and inferior analysis from ABCDs. Seriously, wtf do you want?

You have to re-orient yourself and understand the Sepia Mutiny vibe. SM does not have a responsibility to blog on anything except what interests its writers. If they write on India, they do it from an unashamedly America Desi diaspora perspective. It certainly does not have a responsibility to do what you or anyone else thinks it should do, or write on anything that the incidental audience (Indians in India) think it has an urgency to write about

Well, sometimes you have to think in reverse to understand the way forward. The problem does not lie in the fact that you are American citizens, rather, it is to do with the truth that all Indians who read this blog want to be American citizens too:) Hence, this blog should assimilate the concerns of Indian citizens, who ultimately want to be Indian Americans and bear responsibility for addressing issues that may interest them. Hopefully, in another thirty years, a member of your incidental audience (Indians in India)will attend the SM meet-up organised by his son who has just been promoted to the position of CEO of the SM empire:)- just the thought brings goose-pimples aplenty!
Jai Hind & God bless America!

The problem does not lie in the fact that you are American citizens, rather, it is to do with the truth that all Indians who read this blog want to be American citizens too:)

As cute as your comment was my fellow Malu, it's still slightly problematic. :) What jumped out at me is that you wrote "Indians", which, as soon as I read it, made me wonder, "Don't Pakistanis, Sri Lankans and Bangladeshis want to be American citizens, too?" We love our readers in India (Kush Tandon + Vij et al, what's up?) but the majority of them have real issues with our choice to be inclusive. It's logical for people who are Indian to be India-centric and write the way you did, but people who gravitate to SM-dom tend to think and write differently (and she is amused, b/c she typed that on her Mac).

another problem is that this post appears to cast the quota and caste problem as the stereotypically Brahmins (with Wikipedia link) vs. "Untouchables" thing (the only two castes mentioned in the post). it's a lot more complicated than that in india. brahmins are hardly the only people because of whom one should feel a need for revenge and support the reservations :)

the quota system has been opposed by, among other people, Azim Premji, a Muslim (and therefore supposedly free of caste prejudices) and Sam Pitroda (a member of a lower caste). so this struggle is not only about caste but about class as well.

UberMetroMallu

You misuderstand what I was trying to say. For a start, I am not American, nor am I connected with the blog in any way. I am just a reader and an admirer of Sepia Mutiny. I value it because of the perspective the writers have on their world, a world informed by the reality of being Americans of South Asian heritage. I also admire their refusal to jump into a discussion on what is happening in India for the sake of it, unless, as Abhi has shown, something in his personal reflections makes him perceive the issue in a new light.

I also said the above in response to the assertion made by Jatin that Sepia Mutiny is 'a blog based solely on South Asia, i.e India'

I found this to be arrogant not only for the assumption that South Asia and India are one and the same thing, but that can be put to one side for a moment. It is secondary to the fundamentally wrongnotion that Sepia Mutiny is 'a blog solely based on South Asia'

Sepia Mutiny fills a gap and gives a voice to a particular segment of the South Asian diaspora, with a progressive American Desi perspective. Making demands that it change its agenda to suit people who fundamentally misunderstand the purpose is wrong. It's best to understand this, so you don't start making assumptions about what SM's agenda or reason should be.

Like I said, I am just a fan of Sepia Mutiny. I love their personal perspectives. Nobody should make demands on them to write about anything except what interests them as individual writers. That is why SM is so distinctive. That is what makes it so good. And so different to every other similar blog around.

Anyway, this is off topic, so I hope this line in this thread does not distract from the subject. I just wanted to correct Jatin's presumptiveness.

There are ten million Indian blogs with Indian perspectives. I don't want Sepia Mutiny to change her uniqueness, independence or perspective to satiate or respond to any 'demands' of misunderstanding readers. I like her just the way she is.

We love our readers in India (Kush Tandon + Vij et al, what's up?)

Kush moved to India?

I don't know if he moved there, but I thought he was there now-- he left something on the news tab about watching Da Vinci Code in Delhi while Manish could catch it in Bombay, wrt the whole censorship/controversy etc. I could be wrong. :)

Anna, you have found the right word :" INCLUSIVE" : " We love our readers in India but the majority of them have real issues with our choice to be inclusive."

I found this to be arrogant not only for the assumption that South Asia and India are one and the same thing, but that can be put to one side for a moment. It is secondary to the fundamentally wrongnotion
that Sepia Mutiny is 'a blog solely based on South Asia'

Just curious, do you have any data on the percentages of comments / bloggers / hits in this website from people who can claim their ancestry from other regions of South Asia (i.e not from India) ?. Bcos this blog deals with percentages, I don't think it is a bigger digression.. :-)

Just curious, do you have any data on the percentages of comments / bloggers / hits in this website from people who can claim their ancestry from other regions of South Asia

I would be curious to know how hit rates for a website could indicate whether the reader in America, Canada or England was of Pakistani, Indian or Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi descent! That woul dbe some good software.

Just curious, do you have any data on the percentages of comments / bloggers / hits in this website from people who can claim their ancestry from other regions of South Asia (i.e not from India) ?. Bcos this blog deals with percentages, I don't think it is a bigger digression.. :-)

I would be curious to know how hit rates for a website could indicate whether the reader in America, Canada or England was of Pakistani, Indian or Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi descent! That woul dbe some good software.

No, you can't.. That's why you should consider my statement in whole "comments / bloggers / hits".. From the "comments / bloggers" you can figure out the ancestry.. I believe one of the earlier bloggers (Taz ??) claimed Bangladeshi ancestry..

i wonder if part of the issue is the unofficial system of having to make "donations" to get a seat at a decent college if one doesn't qualify through the quota system. It seems that if so many parents weren't forced to make huge donations/bribes to send their kids to the next best option, the government's quota policies wouldn't hit students who didn't qualify so hard. I've always wondered how the colleges get away with doing this, and also why people don't comment on this aspect of the problem as much...

i wonder if part of the issue is the unofficial system of having to make "donations" to get a seat at a decent college if one doesn't qualify through the quota system. It seems that if so many parents weren't forced to make huge donations/bribes to send their kids to the next best option, the government's quota policies wouldn't hit students who didn't qualify so hard. I've always wondered how the colleges get away with doing this, and also why people don't comment on this aspect of the problem as much...

Ponniyin Selvan - I think Ravin answers your question well. But I am curious to know, why are you curious to know? Most probably, the majority of readers of SM are of Indian ancestry. That's lovely and wonderful, and it is also wonderful and lovely that we have Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan and Pakistani readers too - because it's lovely and wonderful to be inclusive of all! As I know you will agree :-)

Ravin,

Thanks for your link.. It is interesting, what I see is dots from all over the world (North America, Europe, India, Australia, Gulf.. But not many dots from Pakistan/Bangaldesh.. What country is that dot in Africa??.. :-)

What country is that dot in Africa??

The dot in Africa is the city of Abidjan, the capital of Ivory Coast, a former French colony.

Sepia Mutiny Disciple,

I was curious because I don't approve of the term "South Asian".. I am all for being inclusive.. But that should not automatically mean you deny the unique position of India.. For example why do you need to show an artifical parity between Bangladesh and India. At best it is like another state in India.. (say West Bengal). I don't want to digress further from the topic. We can have this discussion some other time.. :-)

I was curious because I don't approve of the term "South Asian".. I am all for being inclusive.

All the more reason why this blog rightfully treads carefully on subjects like this. It IS a brown or desi or SOUTH ASIAN blog, so why would you want its perspective on such a charged topic when you don't even approve of the way SM self-identifies?

It's hard to be inclusive if that means bowing down to one person in the group. Everyone knows that India is huge and different and special blah blah blah compared to her neighbors. Even if we wanted to (and we don't) we couldn't change the truth. This has been debated ad nauseum on this blog-- and the same thing still happens. People conflate "South Asian" and being inclusive with somehow diminishing the very country that most of us trace our ancestry to, which isn't the case at all from OUR perspective. Transparent tactics which attempt to establish the futility or error in choosing to self-identify as South Asian are irrelevant at best and insulting at worst. As long as the people who blog here possess that mindset, where hits come from is not pertinent. At all.

Anna,
It hurt to read your comments as you have misspelt Mallu in your very first sentence. As the great thinker Tyra Banks said: "I was like, oh my God, how could she do that to me?" :) Like you, I too have been thinking about the large number of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans etc. who want to be American citizens. The competition is too much and the Mallus are getting sidelined. I think we need affirmative action pronto.
Sepia Mutiny Disciple,
That makes two of us: I'm not Indian either, I'm merely Mallu:) Appreciate your observations.
Take care guys

Communis Rixatrix

Transparent tactics which attempt to establish the futility or error in choosing to self-identify as South Asian are irrelevant at best and insulting at worst. As long as the people who blog here possess that mindset, where hits come from is not pertinent. At all.

Fair enough.. That's your opinion.. Let's move on to the topic in hand..

Ponniyin Selvan,

I live under a rock that is easy to spot;
it's got a red-lungi-with-a-yellow-dot,
neatly spread out to dry or not:)

abhi,

As I kept talking on the phone with my mom I realized what was driving my opposition to her support, albeit lukewarm, of the protesting doctors and students. I wanted revenge. I wanted revenge for all the ignorant comments I had heard about “Untouchables” on my trips to India. I wanted revenge against all the people that think being part of the Brahmin-caste actually means something, or is worth mentioning in casual conversation. I wanted the students to continue their hunger strike and I wanted them to ultimately capitulate. I feel bad for them and feel it is unfair that they should have to shoulder the brunt of Indian history, but even society has a collective karma.

Well said.. I share your sentiments.. :-)

It is funny to hear the arguments about "Merit" bandied all over.. With OBCs/SC/STs forming the major vote block in the one-man / one-vote democracy, they are bound to frame rules after a while after they get politically organized as you can see happening.. When Muslims ruled they had (more or less) all positions of power in academia/politics/arts etc.. Same case when the Whites (Brits) ruled.. And now it's the case of the OBCs/SCs/STs..

I see the "Abandon caste / respect merit" banners in the anti-reservation protestors.. Fair enough.. They should apply the same principles when they get married. Intra-caste marriages is the system through which "caste system by birth" continues for generations.. They ahould all go for inter-caste marriages so that these kinds of problems won't happen in the future..

:-))

Abhi, as Kumar and other commenters have pointed out, this is cynical vote bank politics being played out. Nothing more, nothing less. Regarding your observation about the "untouchable" comments, I have lived about 26 years of my life in India, have witnessed the condition of tribals, dalits and other lower castes first hand, but I've never heard anyone say that word (not even the most bigoted). Mind you, I spent the first twenty years of my life in Koraput district of Orissa, a tribal majority district.

Caste equations are far more complicated than Time magazine and its incompetent reports, a la the moronic Alex Perry, would have you believe. Reservations for SCs/STs have existed almost from the time the constitution was enshrined. These reservations are all about OBCs, in the process reducing the whole social justice issue to a numbers game. Also, contrary to what our misguided friend Indianoguy would have us believe, not all of the protesters are "privileged urban" upper castes. And please note that most upper caste people accept the need for affirmative action, may be some of them do so grudgingly, but they accept it all the same.

It is funny to hear the arguments about "Merit" bandied all over.. With OBCs/SC/STs forming the major vote block in the one-man / one-vote democracy, they are bound to frame rules after a while after they get politically organized as you can see happening..

Exactly, and of course that is most obvious to any Indian observer. Doesn't make it right though, does it? Of course, merit should count for something, what's wrong in saying that? Just as we have to recognise the need for affirmative action, we have to remove PC blinkers and see the truth there.

. Doesn't make it right though, does it? Of course, merit should count for something, what's wrong in saying that? Just as we have to recognise the need for affirmative action, we have to remove PC blinkers and see the truth there.

Don't know if you saw the next paragraph

"..I see the "Abandon caste / respect merit" banners in the anti-reservation protestors.. Fair enough.. They should apply the same principles when they get married. Intra-caste marriages is the system through which "caste system by birth" continues for generations.. They ahould all go for inter-caste marriages so that these kinds of problems won't happen in the future.."

What do you think about this solution??

the problem is the construction of the "OBC" category. i doubt there's much interest in india in rolling back reservations for "SC/ST" (Harijans/Dalits). these have been in place for a long time and i daresay they are still necessary and useful. no one is seriously advocating changing that.

the lingering question has always been whether some kind of preferential treatment is necessary and/or useful for the people who find themselves "just above" the cut-off for the original reservation system. the lower-lower-lower-lower-middle, if you will.

and there's no good answer, because the extent to which people in that category have their options cut off specifically by caste/ethnic identification DIFFERS by state, city, village. because caste in india is still very real, but at the same time is still very fluid and ambiguous, as it has always been through history.

so, two people who come from different places and who have the same caste identification may well face completely different sets of opportunities and restrictions as a result of that identification. or on the other hand, they might have caste-related obstacles in common. it all depends.

obviously, a top-down, nationally defined system of categories doesn't do a good job reflecting this kind of reality. for every "valid" OBC claim, you're likely to find one that is "invalid." perhaps you could do an analysis that says that the valid claims will far outnumber the invalid ones, and therefore (karma and all that) the scheme is on balance a good one; or you could do an analysis that says the opposite, and therefore that the scheme should be scrapped. then you'll get into debates about assumptions, anecdotes turned into generalities, etc., and we'll never see the end of it.

this is the exact same debate as took place in the late 1980s when the v.p. singh government implemented the original mandal commission findings. we're again arguing over the same questions and using the same ill-fitting, bureaucratic, terminology of "Other Backward Classes." there's a long-standing and ultimately purposive eliding of meaning at work here, between classes and castes and ethnicity. it suits everyone to keep it ambiguous, because then you can stake a claim. but the other reason is that everyone knows that deep prejudice and discrimination still exist in indian society, but nobody with any intellectual honesty has found a simple clear and concise way to identify it for policy purposes.

in this context all this talk of "merit" is a complete red herring. of course it conveys the anxiety of the medical student et al., who worry that the already small number of spots is going to get even smaller. i feel their pain, but that's not what this debate is really about. the politicians will manipulate and sacrifice those students, or their OBC "competitors," in a second.

what's really happening here is that caste is performing the function it's always performed in indian society, which is the same as what anthropologists call ethnicity. unlike "race," which is generally an externally imposed construct, ethnicity is how people self-identify as members of groups, and political and social anthropology teaches that ethnicity is constructed, i.e. people's ethnic identification evolves over time and in function of opportunities.

when you see people trying to shoehorn themselves into the new categories, suddenly "discover" themselves as OBCs and the like, you're just watching the age-old process of the invention and re-invention of identity. it's just that this is a particularly visible and crude example.

in view of all this, the OBC concept is deeply problematic, and throwing it out in favor of the staus quo is deeply problematic as well. to my mind the only coherent way to better adapt opportunities and support to real, not theoretical, patterns of entrenched discrimination, is by massive decentralization of the problem, so that the resources exist and the decisions operate at the local and not central/federal level. fixing discrimination is possible but in a huge and ambiguous country like india it really needs to happen at the state and district level, not at the Centre.

apologies for the long comment.

peace

Several pertinent issues not dealt with in the discussion so far.

- India passed 93rd Constitution Amendment which does the following :

Disallows Indians (excepting minorities) from opening schools and colleges without onerous government regulation.

- Michigan Affirmative Action case was regarding State University. Private Universities were not included (Correct me if I am wrong)

- After 93rd amendment, in India, the government is the sole provider of higher education. This is effectively "Licence-Raj" for education.

- The central issue for strikinf students is the quota for the so-called OBCs (Other Backward Castes). The definition of who is in OBC is totally upto government and the electoral politics decides who gets included into the OBC. For example, Yadavs are the most powerful (politically) group in Bihar and with highest land ownership, but they are still included in OBC.

- True need for Affirmative action is to the historically oppressed classes in India. NO Question about it. They must be helped to undo the injustice of millenia, but OBC business is totally electoral politics.

- Another point, in the North-West and North where the total percentage of people who dont get included in any quota is higher than other parts. As a result there is more reaction in those parts.

Tashie,

yes, genetically you're right. but the problem lies in the social effects of this artificial construct. i have a sneaking suspicion it is a lot easier for wealthier, educated brown immigrants to see it as an artificial and irrelevant concept than for people who have actually been branded (and are still branded) 'Untouchable.'

My point was specifically in relation to the previous comments about IQ having any bearing with caste. I did not comment on the social ramifications of the system, especially with regards to the suggested connection between caste and financial/educational status.

Ponniyin Selvan,

They should apply the same principles when they get married. Intra-caste marriages is the system through which "caste system by birth" continues for generations.. They ahould all go for inter-caste marriages so that these kinds of problems won't happen in the future.."

What do you think about this solution??

They should probably amend their thinking or approach w.r.t the selection of potential spouses so that the caste of the person concerned is irrelevant in their assessment of suitability, rather than specifically using/targetting "intercaste" marriage partners solely to eliminate the caste system. Of course parental objections may also be a hurdle to overcome in this issue.

My point was specifically in relation to the previous comments about IQ having any bearing with caste.

Clarification: In the sense of IQ having any connection whatsoever to caste, or caste being a factor in the person's IQ.

Abhi, dude I think I need to chime in here.

The big issue is not that affirmative action is required. Everyone understands and appreciates the fact that a large percentage of the population can never reach their full potential, merely because they have been marginalized socially and economically. Instead, the point is that affirmative action, implemented via reservations is not the optimal solution. In fact it is nowhere close to being the optimal solution.

Firstly, I agree with Kumar N that it lumps OBCs with the really traditionally opressed scheduled castes/tribes in the same dialogue - which does not help since many of the OBCs are more socially and economically forward and will reap the benefits of reservation while the truly unpriviledged stand back and watch.

Secondly, it does not help the very same students who come in through reservations, especially in the most hypercompetitive colleges. These students typically lag behind the rest of the class since most of these colleges place the bar of admissions very very high. Many of the students that come in via quotas do badly, require more than 4 years to graduate and end up without jobs - aside from the 'reserved' jobs.

Thirdly, I have trouble with the notion of historical debt. Who pays for it? The progressive middle-classes who are liberal and squirm at the notion of caste? Seventeen year old city kids who have never distinguished their classmates as being from one caste or the other? Yet they see their peers, with comparable grades and advantages move into colleges that they cannot aspire to -- merely because they are 'unprivileged' on paper.

Reservations, not affirmative action, are unconstitutional since they clearly violate the principle of equal rights. Affirmative action well implemented would help provide education at the primary and secondary level, identify potentially smart students, nurture them and then prepare them for the free-market economy. Reservations are a crutch that last only from college to a cushy reserved government job. And they don't help the most marginalized who remain illiterate for the rest of their lives. It tends to help middle-class urban who identify themselves as OBC/SC/ST merely so that they can get into a college otherwise out of their reach in simple terms of merit.

As such, reservations incentivize mediocrity.

Thirdly, I have trouble with the notion of historical debt. Who pays for it?

The progressive middle-classes who are liberal and squirm at the notion of caste?

Seventeen year old city kids who have never distinguished their classmates as being from one caste or the other?

Castes are indeed dfiferetntiated by genetics. Take a look at this finding: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11381027

Also, most Indians realize that darker skinned people are more common in lower castes than in higher castes.

Anand,

If there was a noticeable stratification in terms of skin colour/"European" appearance from the higher castes to the lower castes, with no "exceptions" within each caste, then this would possibly be a valid point. However, considering that there are very often dark people who belong to the higher castes -- and vice versa -- the idea of using caste as a possible variable in IQ is more than a little misguided. I'm sure I don't need to comment on the insinuation, however well-intentioned, that darker people have lower levels of intelligence. I would expect that standard of living, level of education received, and standard of nutrition are far more important in defining intelligence, although of course there is some genetic component too w.r.t parental intelligence and the subsequent impact on their children.

I agree that lighter people tend to be more prevalent amongst the so-called higher castes, but there is too much heterogeneity within each caste for castes to be regarded as some kind of "uniform group".

And before anyone else here on SM accuses me of having a chip on my shoulder or some kind of vested interest, let me state that I am from the lighter-skinned/"European"/Iranian end of the spectrum and, in terms of my ancestry, my caste background is also at the "higher" extreme.

I would suggest that academic performance in a "level playing field" scenario would be a better indicator of intelligence -- and, for those of us living in the West, we all know people from so-called "lower" castes here who perform absolutely brilliantly and, often, better than those from so-called "higher" castes.

Jai

The genetic differences exist between castes on a population level; sure there is overlap but that exists even between races such as blacks and whites. That doesnt change the fact that there is significant genetic differentiation between lower and upper castes that are consistent and are accompanied by a gradient of increasing caucasoid genetic heritage the further north and west you go and the further up the caste systm you go. There is indeed overlap with many black brahmins and occasional (though rare) pink skinned chooras, however for the most part it is not too hard to make good guesses by looking at indians to choose "brahmin" or "choora" I understand this would be different in southern India because from what I have seen, southern Indians are virtually all ( > 95%) black skinned regardless of caste. Anyway, my point is not to paint brahmins from the northwest as some sort of super indians but to merely point out that there are significant genetic differences between the castes in India and races in America. We need to be mature enough to accept the possibility that there there may be a heavy genetic component to intelligence and that the component may not be of equal proportions in races and castes.

We need to be mature enough to accept the possibility that there there may be a heavy genetic component to intelligence and that the component may not be of equal proportions in races and castes.

I think the South Indian upper Shudra castes -Reddys, Nairs, Vokaligas, Chettiars, etc, - are generally more intelligent than the so-called northern upper "dwija" castes. And they are doing far better than the BIMARU Bhats and Pandeys and Jats.

RC, with respect to your comment #56 I am assuming you are anti-reservation but nevertheless disagree with my point about historical debt.

Thirdly, I have trouble with the notion of historical debt. Who pays for it?

Those who enjoy privileged position in society. ISnt it obvious. Unless if someone denies that there is a priviledged class and a marginalized class in India.

So does everyone pay equally? If not, in what measure then? No one is denying the existence of marginalization. Those who enjoy privilege is such an encompassing statement. Where are the shades in that? What about the reports of feudal OBCs in UP oppressing the marginalized Dalits? Should they restitute more of the debt? Or less? And how far back do we go in time? To the middle ages? To the first century BC? Who opressed whom and at what time is not an easy equation to figure out.

The progressive middle-classes who are liberal and squirm at the notion of caste?

I grew up in India. Caste is a reality in everyone's life. You cant run away from it.

Seventeen year old city kids who have never distinguished their classmates as being from one caste or the other?

Thats because the kid has been sheltered and has no idea how the real world works.

I did my B.Tech from one of the top engineering colleges in India. We had 25% reservation for SC/ST candidates. The disturbing thing was the fact that most of the "reserved" seats were taken by candidates who did not need/deserve any reservation. They were from well-to-do middle class families..with a good amount of disposable income. They had been educated in good schools, had access to all the facilities (both educational or otherwise) etc. These are not the kind of people who should benefit for reservation. There are numerous other well-deserving candidates for reservations (students from lower income group, villages or small cities, under-represented communities etc).
We had some 'cinderella' stories in our campus.. an engineering student who benefited from reservation (his father was a gardener in our institute). But these kind of stories were more of an exception than a rule. Most of the students who benefited from reservation policy were "rich kids" with sports bikes and computers and other stuff that was not that common among the student community. These guys were exempt from paying any kind of tuition fee and hostel lodging fee, and had a lot of disposable cash at hand. The majority of people who benefit from reservations fall into this category.

I'm not against the policy of reservation..in fact I'm in favour of 50% reservation for the people who genuinely need it.

OK.

Anand, your comments on this thread have been specious at best and downright bigoted at worst. The scientific study abstract you posted simply argues that lighter skinned people constructed a social hierarchy system that favored lighter skinned people. Whether this is true or not, it in no way lends any support to your claim that there exist inherent "genetic" differences between castes.

In other words, you are wrong even if we take you on your own terms. Which we needn't do, because they are abhorrent.

Therefore, kindly refrain.

Everyone: Please don't feed the trolls.

Peace

I have never encountered the caste question anywhere, except perhaps in matrimonial columns.

But isnt this exactly where it matters most? The so-called upper castes claim that Mandal is perpetuating caste, but its not as though they were intermarrying with Shudras and Dalits in high numbers before Mandal. Ambedkar felt that the only way to end caste (in the last analysis) was intermarriage. So until then caste will matter and matter big.

RI,

I have never encountered the caste question anywhere, except perhaps in matrimonial columns.

But isnt this exactly where it matters most? The so-called upper castes claim that Mandal is perpetuating caste, but its not as though they were intermarrying with Shudras and Dalits in high numbers before Mandal. Ambedkar felt that the only way to end caste (in the last analysis) was intermarriage. So until then caste will matter and matter big.

Agreed. But I dont see how that is pertinent to the topic of caste-based reservations. Note that I am all in favour of affirmative action, but against reservations as they are currently being implemented.

Regarding the marriage question, as long as we let sites like shaadi.com ask us for our castes, and as long as we let auntie-jis everywhere engineer machiavellian machinations and post such bigoted matrimonials, there will never be integration. Rise against the auntie-hood! Or perhaps we should have the government impose that 50% of all marriages be intercaste :) Centralized Big-Government Auntie-hood, anyone?

of course there are some genetic differences between indians. there are south indians who are very fair and north indians who are very dark and vice versa. india is a land of contrasts and differences and upside down expectations. but to correlate genetic differences with intelligence and/or a color gradient (not sure if that was what was being implied)?

incidentally, dark-skinned Kenya has a higher literacy rate than most Indian states, including the northwestern ones and J&K and Kerala has the higheset literacy rate in india. can literacy rates be correlated to IQ?

and color is not always a good indicator of genetics. i think a study of brazilians found that fair-skinned brazilians who looked white on the outside had more non-white genes in them than darker-skinned brazilians who had a higher proportion of "caucasian" genes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2585553.stm

Whose God:
You bring up an important point. There are differences between gene frequencies between racial groups. However, not all of these genes are outwardly visible. Because of interracial mating and independent inheritance of genes, you can indeed have a dark skinned person with a flat nose and nappy hair have a more caucasoid overall genetic profile than a fair skinned person with a sharp nose and blond hair. However, on a population basis, lighter skinned european populations will have a more caucasian genetic background. It the laws of probability.

Sidarth and risible:
I am not implying that darker indians are neceaasrily dumber than lighter indians because on an individual basis, genes that control for IQ are not linked to those that control for skin color. However, what I was pointing out is that upper castes ARE genetically distinct from lower castes on a population basis. That means that on average, upper castes, especially from the North West, possess a more distinctly caucasoid (not necessarily European) genetic profile than do lower castes. Skin color is just an obvious trait to highlight this different profile. I am suggesting that since there IS a difference in genetic ancestry and that since there IS a genetic component to IQ, it would be silly to pretend that this genetic component to IQ is necessarily distributed in absolutely the same proportions among different castes.

1) hmmm... so if these OBC reservations are simply a ruse to get more votes, then this should be an easy problem to solve.

the greeks (who allegedly were the first ones to practice democracy) said that democracy only works if the populace is educated. so what if we disenfranchised the non-educated people in india? wouldn't that solve the problem? would any government be trying this tactic (OBC reservations at IIT) to gain more votes?

2) seriously. using this rule, we could disenfranchise the entire state of bihar. would any SM-ers or SM-groupies be really upset by this? wouldn't they be popping champagne bottles at the home office in north dakota? for that matter, would anybody be upset by this?

3) taking this a step further, if we did this in america, and only allowed people on the coasts (and maybe chicago, and a few college towns like austin and santa fe) to vote, wouldn't the democrats win every time.

ok, i think a few hi-fives are in order. spread the love.

First off, why is the big solution for correcting latent caste biases almost always quota-based? I know catering to vote banks (in a clear and obvious way) might be why. (Often real solutions are a bit more subtle na... but we digress)

In terms of helping disadvantaged groups get into top schools, why couldn't an army of government-sponsored Educational Consultants be deployed? IITWise, for example, could not only ensure that OBC/ST/SC's do plenty of extra "tuitions" and "maths" drilling blah blah starting from PRIMARY YEARS, making them exceptionally qualified candidates... but it could also negotiate some great book deals on these living Cinderella stories ("Onyx Chudirella: How I Got Sweeped, Got Intercaste, and Got In!")... so that the govt. wouldn't even have to fund their educations! Glory and then these so called reversed-discriminated higher castes would have a new occupational choice! Yeah!

(Penning my Kaavyaspiration doesn't come out as well as some of the rest of you -- but I try. ;) )

74 comments so far! I've made the 50th post and hope to make the 100th as well; now, that should definitely go down in the SM annals as a first:) Work with me people; I think I'll just rest my head on the keyboard while I wait. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

anand,

i'm just not sure what genetic differences and any correlations they may/may not have with IQ have to do with the Indian governments decision to impose quotas. i think the issue is more equitable access to a good education or to the means of getting a good education, especially at the starting point of a child's life. what an individual does with that opportunity is up to them and their abilities/lack thereof. when it comes to issues of color india continues to be amongst the most banana republic countries on earth, although some latin countries i've been to can compete with us in that regard.

3,000 years of a strictly codified social pecking order.

3,000 years my ass. Caste goes back a long way and its pernicious effects go back a long way as well, but the question is the rigidity of the system and social mobility. I don't think it makes any sense to talk about caste today in the same way that caste existed before the British, or in the year 600, or 1,800 years ago until someone shows me otherwise--which I'm open to. I'm not denying (or confirming--I don't know) the present-day problems related to caste in India--just taking umbrage as a former history student :)

Also, on a sidenote, I'm really happy that a lot of people pointed out that South Asian does not equal Indian. Just to add to the chorus: the diaspora includes Trinidad, Guyana, Jamaica, Mauritius, Fiji, the Maldives, Kenya, and a lot of other non-rich countries; you don't got to be a rich country to have a diaspora ;)

Also, South Asia includes Nepal; Bhutan; etc., in addition to the big four that always get mentioned.

Whose God:

If it can be scientifically established that there are indeed genetic differences between populations that can account for IQ differences, then India would do herself a lot of good by being honest and recongnizing them. We still need to have vigorous equal opportunity laws (especially for public institutions) to allow ALL with capability to tap their potential (and that includes the darkest skinned, lowest caste Indian who may be born with an iq of 150). We all benefit when people are positioned to tap their own unique talents. We don't benefit when we try and ram untalented individuals into elite institutions where they don't belong simply to satisfy some non-sensical notion of "social justice" or "leveling the playing field." Let there be equal access open to all and then let the chips fall were they may; we need to not apologize if groups that make up 80% of the population form only 10% of an elite group.

"If it can be scientifically established that there are indeed genetic differences between populations that can account for IQ differences, then India would do herself a lot of good by being honest and recongnizing them."

even if this can be established and is recognized, in what way is it helpful? are we going to genetically test everyone to see if their genetics predicts a high IQ or lower IQ before giving them a place in school? what if genetic differences and IQ vary from each individual to another individual, even within the same caste, sub-caste, sub-sub-sub caste and so forth?

"We all benefit when people are positioned to tap their own unique talents. We don't benefit when we try and ram untalented individuals into elite institutions where they don't belong simply to satisfy some non-sensical notion of "social justice" or "leveling the playing field." Let there be equal access open to all and then let the chips fall were they may."

if you read my earlier comments you will see that i don't disagree with that at all. merit-based admission is the ultimate ideal, but sometimes you have to tweak the system to ensure that all merit-based people have equal access (whether you're from a lower caste or higher caste). i'm not sure the government's present solution does that and see it more as, at worse, a cynical vote-getting ploy given the unevenness with which they are imposing their quotas, and at best an ill-thought out scheme founded on good intentions.

"we need to not apologize if groups that make up 80% of the population form only 10% of an elite group."

but you also cannot assume that the 20 percent of the population that make up 90 percent of the elite group are all high IQ people or arrived in that group via pure merit. just as you can't assume that all 80 percent of the population didn't have an IQ high or the merit to make it to the elite group.

Regarding the marriage question, as long as we let sites like shaadi.com ask us for our castes, and as long as we let auntie-jis everywhere engineer machiavellian machinations and post such bigoted matrimonials, there will never be integration. Rise against the auntie-hood! Or perhaps we should have the government impose that 50% of all marriages be intercaste :) Centralized Big-Government Auntie-hood, anyone?

God i hope you're kidding. The thing thats been said a couple of time is why are there not enough inter-caste marriages? And of course that will solve all the problems. This is the kind of short sighted view that will keep india behind. Lets not do what it REALLY takes to improve the standard of living, but give quotas and have lots of inter caste marriages. I don't see a lot of inter racial marriages in America, just as there are not a lot of inter caste marriages in India. Its not because of genetic differences, but econimic differences.

Quotas based on econimics will be the only effective way upliftment. But it wont work because the vote bank politics forces the politicians to rely on caste... the same thing they are supposidly against. Yeah good luck guys.

of course there are some genetic differences between indians. there are south indians who are very fair and north indians who are very dark and vice versa. india is a land of contrasts and differences and upside down expectations. but to correlate genetic differences with intelligence and/or a color gradient (not sure if that was what was being implied)?

Caste codes were based on profession, imagine if today you seperated society into castes based on profession doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers on one side, fast-food workers, garbage collectors, and construction workers on the other. 1000 years from now whose kids would be smarter on average ? The skin-color thing is not too relevant.

Where is that gnxp dude when you need him.

As long as everyone is subject to the same entrance examination, who gives a rat's ass that certain populations that may make up a majority of the general population have abysmal representation in elite settings ?

anand,

If it can be scientifically established that there are indeed genetic differences between populations that can account for IQ differences

this tired old saw has been discussed, and debunked, ad nauseam here before. i refer you to any of those threads.

second, caste is not a biological fact, it is a social fact.

third, your latent and non-latent racism is getting very tiresome.

the topic of expansion of caste-based reservations in indian public and private sector institutions is a very complicated one, and there is a lot of room for serious and thoughtful discussion from people on all sides of the issue, in which we can learn from each other.

the discussion on this thread is laudably thoughtful, except for your bigoted interventions. bigotry is not accepted at SM.

peace

Sidarth
Please stick to arguments rather than trying to accuse me of amorphous and poorly defined offenses such as "racism."
Secondly caste is a biological fact as has been proved by Bamshad et al from the Univ. of Utah.
http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/abstract/11/6/994

I find it interesting that some people who are otherwise anti-reservation in the current form, do actually support reservations for the dalits and the untouchables.

Here are some stats from Human Rights Watch on the plight of Dalits in South Asia:

Over 100,000 cases of rape, murder, arson, and other atrocities against Dalits are reported in India each year. Given that Dalits are both reluctant and unable (for lack of police cooperation) to report crimes against themselves, the actual number of abuses is presumably much higher.

An estimated forty million people in India, among them fifteen million children, are bonded laborers, working in slave-like conditions in order to pay off a debt. A majority of them are Dalits.

According to government statistics, an estimated one million Dalits are manual scavengers who clear feces from public and private latrines and dispose of dead animals; unofficial estimates are much higher.

The Indian government has consistently attempted to sabotage the efforts of Indian NGOs to raise awareness of the caste struggle at preparatory meetings in the lead-up to WCAR. The situation of Dalits stands alone as the only issue to have been systematically cut out of the conference's intergovernmental process so far.

This is ridiculous!
They need more than reservations.

Caste violence against Dalits.
Violence Against `Untouchables' Growing, Says Report: Indian Government Fails to Prevent Massacres, Rapes, and Exploitation.

Oee thing that is truly startling about India is that the lower castes are actually a Majority of the population. The average, mainstream Indian is actually a low caste Hindu just as an average, mainstream American is a European descended Christian.

Speaking of Dalits, I have a personal anecdote about the attitude of some Indians, when it comes to Dalits.

Thinking about the anedcote,I am not surprised that the Indian Government has tried to block a discussion on Dalit Rights.

In 2001, when I was still in school, we had a couple of Law Professors discuss among various issues, the issue of 'Dalit' rights and the role played by the Indian Government when it came to Dalit rights in the World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance in Durban, South Africa. We were in the middle of this conference when a whole group of Indian students showed up and started defending the Indian Government and also tried to minimize the mistreatment of Dalits in India. They were extremely rude with one of the African American Law professors (I am presuming because of unfamiliarity with the format of law school discussions)

So if this is the attitude of the best and the brightest from India, I am not surprised that the Government of India is doing nothing to help the plight of the Dalits.

Here is another link, which has more insanity: Indian Government Tries to Block Caste Discussion

anand, the item you linked to says the following:

In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank.

in other words, as i was saying: caste is a social fact. as i was saying. you'll do a much better job dressing up your bigotry in science if you actually find some science to support your bigotry.

Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that all Indians are anti-dalit. I know a lot of admirable work has been done on Dalit rights by people who live in India.

amfd,

was that the same conference that wanted the UN to declare that zionism equalled racism? these are problematic questions. the dalit problem is not a homogenous one. dalits are not a homogenous group. you can find discrimination against dalits among all religions, classes, castes of india. you can find it in neighboring South Asian countries. the conference didn't seem to address that. christian dalits have their own issues with the christian church in india. the problem is that there are some who claim to speak for all dalits in india when in fact they use the dalit problem to further their own agendas in india. not all dalits want them to represent them and their struggles. i am not denying that there are those who want to brush the dalit problem under the carpet or minimize it.

The link between extreme right wing religious nationalism and anti-Dalit bigotry is a deep one. As Al Mujahid for Debauchery has said, this manifests itself in various crude, hysterical and oppressive ways, even to the extent of bullying and cajoling discussions of this issue in forums outside India. Just a few days ago, an article was linked to in the news tab by Francois Gautier, French cheerleader of RSS fascism and mosque destroying, with the hysterical title 'Are Brahmins the new Dalits?' (because some brahmins have to do menial work [oh the persecution! menial work!] they apparently are the 'new dalits')

This is the temper of reaction in some (not all) quarters to the general assertiveness of Dalits in fighting for their dignity. Although the question of reservations is not nessecarily the right way to proceed on this issue, it does no harm to note the temperature of underlying discomfort at the idea of the poor and most discriminated against people in the world being given some measure of help amongst the priveliged 'elite'.

dalits are not a homogenous group. you can find discrimination against dalits among all religions, classes, castes of india. you can find it in neighboring South Asian countries. the conference didn't seem to address that.

Didn't 'seem' to address it?

Did you examine the agenda?

Are you equating the people who wished to address this issue with the anti-semites who wished to declare Zionism as racism? So the addressing of the issue of caste discrimination is a slur on India of the same moral magnitude as the campaign against Israel?

India is being persecuted because people wanted to discuss the caste system in South Africa! Oh, the persecution!

i am not denying that there are those who want to brush the dalit problem under the carpet or minimize it.

Nice final line! Because you would never want to be accused of being one of those kinds of people yourself, would you? Good thing you made that clear. So you will agree with me that despire all the objections you made to the horrible and nefarious activists with their agenda to horribly persecute India by daring to raise the topic of anti Dalit discrimination, you were horrified by the reaction of those who did all they could to block that debate? Good. Because you are certainly not one of those people who would brush the Dalit problem under the carpet by slandering those who campaign on the issue, I am sure.

Anand, my ignorant friend, your references are outdated. Please read and respond:

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002849.html

Didn't 'seem' to address it?
Did you examine the agenda?

Ok. if I missed the part of the agenda where they were going to discuss anti-Dalit discrimination in Nepal, Bangladesh and Pakistan and within the christian and muslim and other communities of india, i really do sincerely apologize.

Are you equating the people who wished to address this issue with the anti-semites who wished to declare Zionism as racism? So the addressing of the issue of caste discrimination is a slur on India of the same moral magnitude as the campaign against Israel?

- no, i'm saying these issues are problematic and issuing statements that something equals something based on a UN conference where some people claim to represent everyone is problematic, no matter what the subject is. i could care less if it was discussed at a un conference or in the us senate. but most countries don't like their dirty laundry aired in public at an international forum outside the country, including the us, so to expect india to have a different reaction, no matter who is in power in india, shouldn't really invite much surprise. i didn't say it was a correct response, only that its'not so black and white. and believe it or not, not every dalit wants to be represented by the people who claim to speak for all of them. believe it or not, don't faint from shock, i actually know some dalits.

"i am not denying that there are those who want to brush the dalit problem under the carpet or minimize it.
Nice final line! Because you would never want to be accused of being one of those kinds of people yourself, would you? Good thing you made that clear. So you will agree with me that despire all the objections you made to the horrible and nefarious activists with their agenda to horribly persecute India by daring to raise the topic of anti Dalit discrimination, you were horrified by the reaction of those who did all they could to block that debate? Good. Because you are certainly not one of those people who would brush the Dalit problem under the carpet by slandering those who campaign on the issue, I am sure."

you can make whatever assumptions you want about me, i really don't care. it doesn't affect who i know i am and how i conduct my life and how i treat people. i won't even bother to defend myself against such untrue accusations. if you say there is a link between extreme right wing nationalism and anti-dalit bigotry and there's truth to that, i can also point out that there's also a link between certain religious and other extreme entities and the extreme anti-Hindu.anti-India bigotry that is spouted when it comes to the dalit and other problems. again, the world is not black and white.

Are obese people discriminated against in America?

Yes.

Do you see Indian people trying to make conference in South Africa to support fat people in America against discrimination?

No.

So why are they persecuting Hindu India by talking about caste system?

This is a plot, mounted by progressives, who call themself 'South Asian' and think themself 'inclusive', to slander the most tolerant of all tolerant people. Dalits enjoyed their place. Bad idea was put in their head that they were not treated with tolerance. Now they slander us with African American Law Professor aided by Abrahamics for Debauchery. Slander and try to claim we are not the most tolerant. Do you see Hindus mounting defence of negro in America? No! So why can't negro conference show same tolerance of us?

Caste system was invented by a novel called 'God of Small Things'. This is an attempt to side-track the issue, which is facing destruction of India, apart from the historical fact of 89 billion Hindus slaughtered by Abrahmic invaders raping us over the last 109,000 years - it does not address the real existence and presence of evil that threatens to destroy Hindu civilisation and will annihilate us if we do not defeat this Satanic scum: Wendy Doniger

I see through your tactics to side-track this issue, in league with subversive Dalit activists with evil agenda, you cannot fool me, you anti-national bigots.

STOP PERSECUTING US BY DISCUSSING CASTE!

Hail Mogambo!

Ok. if I missed the part of the agenda where they were going to discuss anti-Dalit discrimination in Nepal, Bangladesh and Pakistan and within the christian and muslim and other communities of india, i really do sincerely apologize.

That's just a pathetic thing to introduce into the debate in the first place. As if the issue of caste in India should be contingent on the discussion of it in Pakistan too. Please! This is juvenile and pathetic.

spoorlame, you're so funny! thanks for injecting the much needed, even if oft repeated, carnival show. i was about to run off and commit suicide after reading ambedkar's comments but you've saved this soul.

DesiDuteInGotham asked:

So did I. Did they ask you for your caste when you went into primary school? Or junior school? And did you shun your classmates just because they were from a different caste?

In certain parts of India, (the ones that I am familiar with) one's last name is enough for others to put them in a caste box. Anyone who denies this is not being honest. Kids dont do that, thats why they are "innocent". Real world is not like a primary school.
Once "they" know your last name, they know where you stand in the "pecking order".

One thing that has gotten lost in all the noise is that even this present proposed bill says that they want to limit access to so called "creamy layer OBCs". Those OBCs who come from family income more than 250,000 are excluded.

But I am against this thing since the government is perpetuating this "horrible" system of caste by attaching a quota to each caste. In a way government is asking people's last name, to put them in a box. Whats so shameful in all this is that this is all due to electoral politics.

As Abhi has already noted, those in the streets protesting, dont vote. As a result their issues arent of concern to politicians.

Abhi,
I do not understand the reason for separating Indian-centric topics from SM-centric topics. In a wordl that is comtracting as we speak, this intention smacks a little of that American affliction - political correctness. Why be afraid of what people will think about your writings on India? It is your opinion after all. And we non-ABDs would luv to hear about your take on India - beacuse India begs opinions.

And as far as the reservation issue goes - I would be interested in knowing how many mutineers' parents came to America after being educated in the very colleges where the issue is flaming in India. I would think the number is significant and if so, why would not touch the topic?

Neale

As long as everyone is subject to the same entrance examination, who gives a rat's ass that certain populations that may make up a majority of the general population have abysmal representation in elite settings ?

Thats about the least informed argument I have read so far. And the fixation with "Choora", My God !!! We get it, man !! you are better than "Choora".... Okay we will not call you a "Choora", happy now ?? :-)

"Choora" is just colloquial shorthand for all those of lower caste. It is neither disparaging nor patronizing.

"As if the issue of caste in India should be contingent on the discussion of it in Pakistan too. Please! This is juvenile and pathetic."

ok, if not pakistan, then did it include nepal, bangladesh or non-hindu communities within india? or is that also being juvenile and pathetic? i guess i am being naive to think that people, especially non-Indians, claiming to speak on behalf of dalits and bigotry against them would be concerned about it at a south asian-level (or is that term only politically correct in some instances and not in others?) and not just on a country/religion level at a conference titled "World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance in Durban, South Africa."

but let's just leave it at me very, very bad and you very, very good. it simplifies everything and ties it all up in a neat box and requires no further discussion. and that is the conclusion of this sm conference against caste discrimination, racism and other -isms. have a nice evening:)

"Choora" is just colloquial shorthand for all those of lower caste. It is neither disparaging nor patronizing.

dalits are not a homogenous group. you can find discrimination against dalits among all religions, classes, castes of india. you can find it in neighboring South Asian countries. the conference didn't seem to address that.

Thats called graded inequality. castes discriminating against each other. Ambedkar knew this and knew that this had to be overcome, which is why besides the Mahars no other Dalit castes really backed him initially though Jatavs and now a very large cross section of Dalit intellectuals are Ambedkarites. It is victims fucking other victims, which is what makes the caste system so insidious in the first place. when dalits unite it makes the powers that be nervous - which is why both the Hindu nationalists and the secularists try to come to terms with Ambedkar in their own way. when OBCs unite...well it would seem to make upper caste marginalization in the political realm an eventuality in North India, as it has been in the South for a long time. See Jaffrelots work on Ambedkar and the rise of lower caste power in North India

How many Brahmins drive Lorries = none
How many Brahmins do house hold jobs like cleaning utensils = none
How many Brahmins do sanitary jobs = none
Brahmins do not do low key jobs.

The upper-caste or the Brahmins only do the white collared jobs in the society.
Generations have passed and the lower castes are still working under the upper castes. Only the upper-castes get good jobs.

The new party lok paritran (constituting the iit dudes from the upper castes) discriminated a lower caste guy who won in the election by taking away a post and gave the powers to an upper caste guy from mylapore just because he was from forward community.

If lok paritran comes to power then nobody can save the people of India.

risible
The rise of lower caste power will definitely swamp the brahmins and other upper castes into insignificance. When it comes down to demographics, India's population is composed overwhelmingly of the lower castes. Hindustan may soon be renamed "Tattistan" and the national flag will be changed to replace the Dharma chakra with a commode :)

"It is victims fucking other victims, which is what makes the caste system so insidious in the first place. when dalits unite it makes the powers that be nervous - which is why both the Hindu nationalists and the secularists try to come to terms with Ambedkar in their own way. when OBCs unite...well it would seem to make upper caste marginalization in the political realm an eventuality in North India, as it has been in the South for a long time. See Jaffrelots work on Ambedkar and the rise of lower caste power in North India."

true. human beings the world over victimize each other all the time, caste system or no caste system. let everyone speak out at whatever forum they want to and demand their rights. shades of grey.

@ Anand:

I find your comments to be quite amusing.

You make the assertion that people of higher castes perform better because they are genetically 'superior' to the lower castes.
ABSOLUTE BULL!Doing well in a test/performing better in college requires intelligence.However it also requires culture that emphasises on studying.(Having parents who are educated),positive role models and family encouragement.
Notice anything familiar about the above? If not? Let me clarify.

1.Brahmins (especially South Indian Brahmins) are highly educated and each family has two or three generations that have atleast school level education.
2.Check out your own immediate family,(assuming you are a Brahmin).You are most likely to have role models who have gone to IITs,or abroad.This kind of increases the pressure on one to succeed.I should know, I remember the unbelievable pressure to get into IIT two years back.
3.The ability to recite mantras and emphasis on study of religious texts means that the average brahmin is actually able to succeed better in a rote learning education system.

On the other hand, Consider the other castes..

1.Large number of families are still uneducated.Even if you have an IQ of 150, you can do succeed only and ONLY if you have a good atmosphere.
2.Absence of role models, if any.Many of my friends in my college are going to become the first engineers in their family.They most certainly are not going to be able to make efficient use of the resources available.
3.If your family has been cleaning toilets for the past five hundred years,You are raised in a culture that concentrates on surviving.THAT however DOES NOT mean that you are only fit for doing that.

Thanks.

Long time lurker, First time poster :)

but let's just leave it at me very, very bad and you very, very good. it simplifies everything and ties it all up in a neat box and requires no further discussion. and that is the conclusion of this sm conference against caste discrimination, racism and other -isms. have a nice evening

You titan of moral complexity! Without your insight we would be on a blasted heath, buffeted by the wicked and disgusting moral simplicity of Dalit campaigners seeking to discuss the discrimination of caste in an international forum. What simpletons! And only you are capable of injecting the insight of how it's not all black and white. Such fools as we are, and such moral depths and complexity. No pathetic juvenile nonsense of how it is all a Plot Against India because, hey, Pakistan does not deal with the issue, so the persecution of Hindus and India takes place unfairly. SpoorLam isn't satire, he is reality, man! You are a case in point.

Information is an eye opener.
I am trying to host a web site to address the College/University quota's system. To start with the site basically will have all the universities and its affiliated colleges with offered courses and number of seats. The information can be expanded as we go on. Further, I haven’t found any one site that deals with this quota issue.

I am looking for participation where by the participants can themselves maintain the data by universities/colleges. Can anyone help get me in touch with the protester panel?

"Choora" is just colloquial shorthand for all those of lower caste. It is neither disparaging nor patronizing

The rise of lower caste power will definitely swamp the brahmins and other upper castes into insignificance. When it comes down to demographics, India's population is composed overwhelmingly of the lower castes. Hindustan may soon be renamed "Tattistan" and the national flag will be changed to replace the Dharma chakra with a commode

Hail Mogambo!

Anand speaks the unvarnished Politically Incorrect Truth that 'South Asian' 'inclusives' seek to deny. He is a hero and a truth teller and his devastating knowledge and repartee has singlehandedly restored brahmin pride and confidence on PseudoSecular Mutiny. You cannot handle the truth. You CANNOT HANDLE the TRUTH.

Anand, if you are not married, may I suggest my cousin? She is as tolerant and clever as you, hates chooras, negros, Abrahamics and gays, and is part of the model minority of a small town in Conneticut. Together you could birth a superpower child, with superpowers, who would be perhaps the most tolerant of all. Rumours that she is not a virgin and has slept with white men are not true.

Hail Mogambo Anand!

See also related SM post here.

thank you, spoor lam.

All i said was its a bit odd that a story so big affecting the largest country in South Asia is not even mentioned, i didn't demand a opinion on it. And i don't mean to exclude the other countries in South Asia, but when it comes to the number of stories being covered/posts being written on this blog, you have to admit the majority have the indian connection if not directly from India.

How many Brahmins drive Lorries = none How many Brahmins do house hold jobs like cleaning utensils = none How many Brahmins do sanitary jobs = none Brahmins do not do low key jobs.

The upper-caste or the Brahmins only do the white collared jobs in the society.
Generations have passed and the lower castes are still working under the upper castes. Only the upper-castes get good jobs.

you might want to read this http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm?q=tp&file=.htm

i'm taking it with a grain of salt... "the plight of the upper castes"?! but apparantly there are brahmins cleaning toilets.

where are my hi-fives? you must spread the love to the creator of the plan to disenfranchise biharis (and republicans)

come on, anand i expect at least a shout-out (or a HELLLOOO) from you in your next post

Tarun, you're so full of it. Brahmins do hold menial positions in India (in fact, I recently read an article about Brahmin janitors in North India), and what's wrong with that? Are you saying the dignity of any human's labor is somehow decreased when they work in service and blue-collar jobs?

As for this post, it shows some arcane notions the west holds regarding the caste system as it exists in India today, and Brahmins in particular. While most of the pecking-order anger in India is directed towards Brahmins, the fight really lies between various members of the Kshatriy/Vaishya classes and "lower classes."

Being Brahmin has meant nothing since the 1960s when university quota systems were established and many Brahmins fled India for the west. I will also submit that being Brahmin does mean something, albeit from a personal, religious view and not a social one. There's nothing wrong with being Brahmin as long as one doesn't lord it over others, and that hasn't happened in India for decades. There hasn't been the opportunity, politically or economically. If anything, Brahminism has been translated into nationalism (ick!).

So, please channel your nascent sense of retribution appropriately.

you might want to read this http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm?q=tp&file=.htm

i'm taking it with a grain of salt... "the plight of the upper castes"?! but apparantly there are brahmins cleaning toilets.

Gautier plagiarized Meenakshi Jain's 1991 article.

"You titan of moral complexity! Without your insight we would be on a blasted heath, buffeted by the wicked and disgusting moral simplicity of Dalit campaigners seeking to discuss the discrimination of caste in an international forum. What simpletons! And only you are capable of injecting the insight of how it's not all black and white. Such fools as we are, and such moral depths and complexity. No pathetic juvenile nonsense of how it is all a Plot Against India because, hey, Pakistan does not deal with the issue, so the persecution of Hindus and India takes place unfairly. SpoorLam isn't satire, he is reality, man! You are a case in point."

"Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit; by and bit it will strike."

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages."

"Cudgel thy brains no more about it."

"God has given you one face, and you make yourself another."

Ponniyin Selvan, yes, I do think inter-caste marriages will make a difference and are necessary to combat the whole caste thing. That said, the real problem is that it is a bidirectional thing - it's not just that upper castes will not marry lower castes (although that has been the more likely direction of discrimination historically), it's also that people want to marry "within" caste. Economic mobility may have an impact there, I'm not sure. Also, to those who may not be aware, the rigid arranged marriage system also constrains people from the same caste marrying on many other grounds such as sects, astrological considerations etc.

Much of the poverty that gets blamed completely on the caste system is in a large part due to the abysmal economic and administrative policies/failures. As has been repeated ad nauseam, there is no talk anywhere about how to address the issue at the grassroots, primary education level. Economic upliftment is as much about sound policies and execution at the ground level than grandiose policies, the motives for which are clear to everyone. You cannot create an entitlement economy when half a billion people fall under the categories that you decide to be deserving of that entitlement. The worst aspect, though, is that all these are open ended.

I am a BC and i dont think this reservation will benefit the community. While i agree that reservation is strictly needed for MBC's, SC's and the ST's there is no need for 29% or something for the backward castes.

Who in the backward castes are getting closer to the IIT's and IIM's. Even if the Govt allots reservations for the BC's i dont think people will get benefit out of it.

Instead the Government could increase the quota for the SC/ST's.

I agree Brahmins are targeted by the reservation gimmick of the Indian politics.

There's nothing wrong with being Brahmin as long as one doesn't lord it over others, and that hasn't happened in India for decades.

Strongly disagree there. As an example my family is Brahmin too and I feel like some of them do lord it, even if it is in subtle ways. I didn't use Brahmins in the post above as some sort of archetypal example to pick on. I used them because that is what I am most familiar with since I was supposedly born one.

Thanks for bringing this topic, the writer being a brahmin himself. kudos!

All,
*warning - long post* I have read most of the comments on this thread, and it strikes me that a lot of the discussion on caste is how the West understands it, which is to say, not like it actually is.

India exists on multiple planes, I daresay, in a more complex way than most western socities (If you think I'm biased, don't bash me, yet). If you entered each Indian citizen into a database with a list of a bunch of attributes like gender, age, caste, financial wherewithall, education, location etc, and tried to cut a crosssection of people who are most disadvantaged in TODAY'S INDIA, you will see that caste will only be one of the many collective attributes of the cross-section without being its theme. I think the theme would be poverty/lack of money/financial wherewithall, not caste itself. I know of many many non SC/ST/OBCs that are not only poor and share other attributes associated with the oppressed, but actually are doing worse since THEY don't have any reservations for them! 40 yrs ago, reservation was supposed to help SC/ST/OBC get on the vehicle on the road to national opportunity. Today, I think the situation has turned on its head - its the higher castes that's at a disadvantage to the point where I think they could do with a little reservation of its own!

This, in general is my basis for disagreeing with the policy of reservation. Right now reservation is being provided along inappropriate vectors. The cross-section of people that need help is not automatically and simply SC/ST/OBC.

Reservation needs to be abolished in favor of instituting measures that will ensure inculcation of ability to compete in the weakest citizens of India. The government needs to define 'weak', and implement what's needed to improve the ability to compete for them.

But of course, it will not happen. Democracy is rule of the populus. The politicians are helping the citizenry see themselves along the [SC/ST/OBC] vs. non division. Along this divide, the clear majority is SCSTOBC. Right now the ruckus is about reservation close to 50%. Tomorrow it can be for a full 100%. And why not? Its a democracy.

If you think I'm smoking something, think again (perhaps I'm drinking something :)) Sorry - think again because the Indian politician today is argueably at a nadir without equal. Check out this interview of Arjun Singh, the Congress Minister for Human Resources Development who's responsible for getting this latest thing started. Whether you oppose reservation or not, you've got to admit, this guy's pure unadultrated crap who's unfit to take any action on reservation. http://www.ibnlive.com/news/devils-advocate-arjun-singh/11063-4-single.html

BTW, given the deal with democracy, the non SCSTOBCs need to organize taking a leaf from their opposition's playbook. SCSTOBCs do vote in numbers, and the nons have begin to do the same. For all their intelligence, they still haven't gotten their act together, not to mention the last 16 yrs since Mandal reservations that have gone idlly by without political/public opinion movement and organizing on part of the nons.

And you know the real fun will begin shortly when the government begins to force private companies to provide reservation for SCSTOBC in hiring and promotion. The Govt had given 2 yrs time for private sector to 'think' about it. Now its going to implement it since the private sector hasn't made a move by itself in that direction.

Kumar N said
" IndianoGuy commented about his SC friend working in an IT company now, and if he was not educated through the reservation system,this would have never happened. Great ! This is exactly what the policy aims to achieve. So, thanks to quota system, today, IndianoGuy and his friend both are in the same economic and social class. And yet, some years later, IndianoGuy's daughter has to score over 95% in an entrance exam for a professional or higher education, while his friend's daughter has to score only the qualifying marks. What's more, IndianoGuy has to bear the cost of education for his daughter, where as the Govt. would fund the cost of education for his friend's daughter."

Kumar,
I still support Reservations, I strongly feel that the reservations must continue for another 30-50 years, till the caste system becomes irrelavent. For most people living in Indian cities caste is not relevent, but if you go to any village in India, caste is the most important thing. If dalits were left to suffer for thousands of years, I wouldnt mind couple of generations from upper castes suffering for lets say hundred years. As the saying goes "YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW". In the case of Caste discrimination we are suffering because of the deeds of our fore fathers. May be its bad karma as Abhi said.

Q 1) if a SC/ST person gets reservation , becomes IAS then he is rich and he has power . now what about his childrens ? why should they also get reservation ?

Q 2) who told the supporters of reservation that only SC/ST needs help/reservation and all high caste people are rich and powerfull ?

Q3) why should the passing marks and other criterias should be set lower for SC/ST people ? Is government assuming here that they are mentally weak ? when they are getting reservation , at least the criteria should be same.

The government is not applying reservation for any reason other than that they want cheap publicity and vote . Instead of giving support and basic infrastructure to poors (include SC/ST and others of all relegion) they are just redistributing the poverty . It is a stunt to gain vote .similar to rural gurantee scheme. just plain redistribution of poverty . when even the present number of seats reserved for SC/St are unoccupied , why increase seats .

Instead of increasing reservation government should provide basic education to weaker section of society . also it is more important to see that after giving money and support , the scheme are properly implemented . The situation of government schools , hospitals etc . is already pathetic .

Wow. You should blog about "Indian" issues. Check out the large number of comments you get.

I strongly feel that the reservations must continue for another 30-50 years, till the caste system becomes irrelavent

doesn't this process seem counterintuitive then? isn't this just reinforcing the idea of caste?

Ha ha I can be so funny at times! (not! I can mis-spell at times) - "Democracy is rule of the populus." Please read "Democracy is rule of the populous."

Wow. You should blog about "Indian" issues. Check out the large number of comments you get.

Wow. What an insipid comment about comments. If we REALLY wanted "large", we could just blog about Kaavya (564 comments), relationships/marriage (440), sexual violence in the SA community (267) or beauty and skincare (213). So, if we were comment-sluts, there's plenty of other ways to "get some" besides "Indian" issues, thanks.

"Caste" is an artificial construct. Genetically, there is no such thing.

I love it when people who know nothing speak with such authority.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15232732&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

Directional migration in the Hindu castes: inferences from mitochondrial, autosomal and Y-chromosomal data.

Wooding S, Ostler C, Prasad BV, Watkins WS, Sung S, Bamshad M, Jorde LB.

Department of Human Genetics, University of Utah, 15 North 2030 East, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-5330, USA.

Genetic, ethnographic, and historical evidence suggests that the Hindu castes have been highly endogamous for several thousand years and that, when movement between castes does occur, it typically consists of females joining castes of higher social status. However, little is known about migration rates in these populations or the extent to which migration occurs between caste groups of low, middle, and high social status. To investigate these aspects of migration, we analyzed the largest collection of genetic markers collected to date in Hindu caste populations. These data included 45 newly typed autosomal short tandem repeat polymorphisms (STRPs), 411 bp of mitochondrial DNA sequence, and 43 Y-chromosomal single-nucleotide polymorphisms that were assayed in more than 200 individuals of known caste status sampled in Andrah Pradesh, in South India. Application of recently developed likelihood-based analyses to this dataset enabled us to obtain genetically derived estimates of intercaste migration rates. STRPs indicated migration rates of 1-2% per generation between high-, middle-, and low-status caste groups. We also found support for the hypothesis that rates of gene flow differ between maternally and paternally inherited genes. Migration rates were substantially higher in maternally than in paternally inherited markers. In addition, while prevailing patterns of migration involved movement between castes of similar rank, paternally inherited markers in the low-status castes were most likely to move into high-status castes. Our findings support earlier evidence that the caste system has been a significant, long-term source of population structuring in South Indian Hindu populations, and that patterns of migration differ between males and females. Copyright 2004 Springer-Verlag

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11381027&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

Genetic evidence on the origins of Indian caste populations.

Bamshad M, Kivisild T, Watkins WS, Dixon ME, Ricker CE, Rao BB, Naidu JM, Prasad BV, Reddy PG, Rasanayagam A, Papiha SS, Villems R, Redd AJ, Hammer MF, Nguyen SV, Carroll ML, Batzer MA, Jorde LB.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah 84112, USA. mike@genetics.utah.edu

The origins and affinities of the approximately 1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank. To explore the impact of West Eurasians on contemporary Indian caste populations, we compared mtDNA (400 bp of hypervariable region 1 and 14 restriction site polymorphisms) and Y-chromosome (20 biallelic polymorphisms and 5 short tandem repeats) variation in approximately 265 males from eight castes of different rank to approximately 750 Africans, Asians, Europeans, and other Indians. For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%-30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes. In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps. Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (approximately 600 individuals). Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians. We conclude that Indian castes are most likely to be of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture resulting in rank-related and sex-specific differences in the genetic affinities of castes to Asians and Europeans.

Note that "Asian" in this data set means something different from "East Asian". The point however is that there are highly nontrivial differences in genome content between caste groups.

...as for the rest of this thread, it's not worth the time. but anand, you're right about the underlying dynamic. Read Amy Chua if you haven't already. And see ya at gnxp, perhaps, if you're not already there.

Being Brahmin has meant nothing since the 1960s when university quota systems were established and many Brahmins fled India for the west.

Today, I think the situation has turned on its head - its the higher castes that's at a disadvantage to the point where I think they could do with a little reservation of its own!

Can either of you cite something for these claims? As an outsider who has heard--as recently as yesterday--stories about caste-related bias within the past 30-40 years, it's hard for me to swallow these ideas without some attribution. There must be some middle ground between applying 19th century European ideas about caste and denying that it exists as a facet of society.

gc:

I love it when people who know nothing speak with such authority.

gc, i'm not a statistics maven, but two studies from the same school with sample sizes of 265 men and 200 people respectively don't seem to be all that convincing for a region--including the other countries--with almost 2 billion people, innumerable regions, several religions--some of whom may have taken up some of the population of the castes that are being studied--and numerous different kinds of social systems (including different manifestations of what "caste" means). Further, there's a huge jump from arguing that there are genetic markers that separate caste to arguing that these have some social meaning. Your ringing endorsement of Anand, despite jumps in logic like the one highlighted below, doesn't exactly speak highly of you:

Anyway, my point is not to paint brahmins from the northwest as some sort of super indians but to merely point out that there are significant genetic differences between the castes in India and races in America. We need to be mature enough to accept the possibility that there there may be a heavy genetic component to intelligence and that the component may not be of equal proportions in races and castes.

The only thing worse than someone who doesn't know what they're talking about spouting off is someone who knows a little trying to cow everyone else into submission in order to perpetuate an ideology of oppression ;)

Also, on a sidenote, I'm really happy that a lot of people pointed out that South Asian does not equal Indian. Just to add to the chorus: the diaspora includes Trinidad, Guyana, Jamaica, Mauritius, Fiji, the Maldives, Kenya, and a lot of other non-rich countries; you don't got to be a rich country to have a diaspora ;)

The problem with the argument is this - in most of the countries mentioned above (I am not sure why Maldives is here), the migrants were from the regions/parts of the subcontinent which are within the boundaries of modern India (Uttar Pradesh/Haryana/Bihar,Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Maharashtra and Gujarat). The exceptions may be Sindhis. Most of the people as far as I know consider India as the land of forefathers. As far as I know they don't identify themselves as people of South Asian origin. Also the Indian government is the one who deals with the diaspora relations for peoples in Trinidad, Guyana, Mauritius, Fiji, Malaysia, Singapore etc. I have friends/relatives/acquintances in Australia, UK and South Africa and they consider themselves as people of Indian origin and not South Asia.

This South Asia business is mostly a North American phenomenon and an affliction of second-generation ABD's influenced by SAJA and Prashad/Vinay Lal etc leftist cabal.

This South Asia business is mostly a North American phenomenon and an affliction of second-generation ABD's influenced by SAJA and Prashad/Vinay Lal etc leftist cabal.

Who? When I was in elementry school I had never heard of SAJA or Prashad or Lal. That is when my "afflicition" began. You continue to demonstrate your ignorance. Let the issue go.

This South Asia business is mostly a North American phenomenon and an affliction of second-generation ABD's influenced by SAJA and Prashad/Vinay Lal etc leftist cabal.

Obviously there are different ways to look at this--sociologically, through self-identification of people today or their ancestors who arrived in diasporic countries, through cultural traits like language religion or customs, through biological ancestry, etc. It's not that one is inherently better than the others but that they reveal different information that serve different ends--that's why people can argue about this endlessly. My point is simply that there are people with South Asian blood or cultural ties in Trinidad, Guyana, and many other countries, not just in the U.S., Canada, and other rich countries.

AMFD AKA Spoorlam

In 2001, when I was still in school, we had a couple of Law Professors discuss among various issues, the issue of 'Dalit' rights and the role played by the Indian Government when it came to Dalit rights in the World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance in Durban, South Africa. We were in the middle of this conference when a whole group of Indian students showed up and started defending the Indian Government and also tried to minimize the mistreatment of Dalits in India. They were extremely rude with one of the African American Law professors (I am presuming because of unfamiliarity with the format of law school discussions)

Can you be clear? Where you in the conference or in school when the incident happened? Why shouldn't a group of Indian students come and object to things that may have been misrepresented. Most of of us were not there and why should we accept your version of events? Do we need to accecpt HRW as the mother church and what it says as Gospel? HRW is just a lackey for the State Dept and pursues the agenda of pursuing American power by other means. And, finally the conference was on racism and xenophobia - Dalits don't fit the agenda - they are not of a different race nor are they foreigners in India. That is the reason that the Indian govt objected and despite the efforts of HRW, the leftists, the Dalitistan gang and their Christian missionary supporters, everybody agreed this was the case.

Also, AMFD AKA Spoorlam - FYI - in most states the rule is for the police to identify any acts of discrimination/viloence against the Dalits as it is the law as the police officers job will be in jeopardy. There are exceptions in some Northern states and rural areas.

PS: This is not to condone the discrimination against the dalits/tribal people. India needs to do a lot more in this regard. But a lot of these problems are also become of how the economy is structured and the population pressures. So many people going after so few resources will lead to exploitation, the only thing is instead of caste it may be by some other classification.

Who? When I was in elementry school I had never heard of SAJA or Prashad or Lal. That is when my "afflicition" began. You continue to demonstrate your ignorance. Let the issue go.

Abhi,

I know it is your blog and your prerogative on what you allow to be discussed. And since it is your blog you can define what your audience is. But as far as I know, I stand by the contention, that South Asianitis is a North American phenomenon. And I consider myself an American citizen of Indian origin.

Abhi wrote..
>

Perhaps there is something about these statements that are worth looking at again. The first one is insular.But the second one...Don't you think your mother brought it up beacuse she wanted your opinion? She must have thought you, who went to a US school that is in the forefront of affirmative action, would be curious about the Indian version of affirmative action.

I know i may sound like a broken record, but why this conscious effort to disassociate yourself from India? It mystifies me.....this writing about Indianness without writng about India...

As an example, all newpapers carry the same news. But we choose some because they offer a fresh prespective. With SM you have a wonderful tool
to tell us what you really think about your culture (and that means talking/writing about India/Pakistan/B'desh/Sri Lanka).

Neale

oops...the 2 sentences in Abhi's post i was referring to are:
>

Neale

lets try this again :-)
Abhi's post were to the effect..

1.I wasn't gpoing to blog about the Indian issue because it does not affect me In any way
2. My mom got to talking about it and we entered into a discussion.

Neale

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this. The whole reservation issue is burning just in the North Indian states. Ever wondered why?

In Tamil Nadu for example, we already have 69% reservation. In some cases this could go upto 90% (Children on war heros, special considerations, overseas refugees, exchange programs etc..). In the south of India, the number of Engineering colleges are much greater than the north of India. Even if you bring reservation to 99% you will still have seats for everbody. Everybody, regardless of caste, has to meet a high school percentage requirement to appear for the Common Admission Test (CET).

As a Syrian Christian, the constitution labels me as an forward caste (FC), so no reservations for us. If you are a Dalit (SC) or any backward caste and if you convert to Christianity, you becaome FC on government papers. If you convert to Sikh or Buddist, you remain SC or OBC. There are a lot of FCs now who want to be SCs because of the benifits.

hindutvavadi in California > re #139, perhaps for you. As a Sri Lankan-descended Australian, I can attest to the fact that a pan-South Asian identity is alive and well down here, born of cultural similarities between the nationalities invovled and the the similarities between diaspora experiences: whether as desis, "curries" or South Asians. This doesn't negate the uniqueness of each experience or the origins of those from different groups.

Wow. Way to jump on a commenter, A N N A- I think "casual observer" was just trying to encourage Abhi to blog on more Indian issues such as this because this topic is generating a lot of intelligent discussion and interest from SM readers. Great post, Abhi.

I love it when people who know nothing speak with such authority.

I love it when people have absolutely no idea about the educational background of other people yet assume that the latter "knows nothing" when discussing a certain topic if it contradicts their own stance. Unfortunately (for such people), my knowledge of the biomedical sciences and genetics may be a little more substantial than they think, and the various genetics-related articles that have been posted here are not only easy for me to understand, they do not "go over my head" in the slightest (giving people the benefit of the doubt, I'm assuming that the intention wasn't to post jargon-heavy articles in the hope that the opposing party wouldn't be able to counterargue due to lack of comprehension of the subject matter and its related terminology). I could in fact reverse this and imply that people copying & pasting such articles have themselves not understood the broader scope of what these research papers are actually saying.

1. There is obviously going to be a greater degree of commonality within members of certain groups if they have only married and reproduced amongst themselves for an extended period.

2. Whether one can extrapolate this to a distinct genetic group analogous to race is, however, another matter. Using some examples, is there any such thing as a Californian "race" ? For a long time, people in towns, villages, and cities in the West rarely migrated outside of their locality and married only amongst themselves; would it therefore be appropriate to classify such individuals into "actual" races constituting human sub-groups/sub-divisions, even if we use the term "caste" instead ? What about people who live in -- and are from -- outside India; why not analyse, subdivide, and classify them into "castes" too ? After all, historically members of the European aristocracy only married amongst themselves (were they therefore genetically predisposed to rule due to higher IQ ? Can you broadly classify them as a single genetic group, considering the rate of intermarriage and reproduction they demonstrated, and often still demonstrate today ?).

In the present day out here in the West, doctors often marry other doctors, the wealthy often marry people of similar financial status, people from less advantaged strata of society end up marrying and having children with people from a similar background, and so on. I'm talking about the Western population as a whole here, not just South Asians. Perhaps we should extrapolate the "Indian system of caste classification" to the entire planet.

3. Addressing the supposition that people belonging to "backward" castes are there due to lack of basic intelligence, this ignores the fact that the associated heirarchy (and lack of opportunities for social "advancement") was imposed on them from the top-down. How far do you want to take this idea ? Is the United States currently at the apex of financial and military might in the world due to some the underlying superior intelligence of its citizens, or is it more to do with the internal culture of the country and the associated social infrastructure ?

Hell, we can even apply this hypothesis to the Indian subcontinent's own history. For nearly 800 of the last 1000 years, large swathes of Indian society were ruled by Muslims, especially those of foreign descent (to some degree or another). So does this mean that individuals of Mughal, Persian, Afghan, and Arab background/ancestry were genetically predisposed to be at the top of the pile due to their "higher IQ" ? Did converts who married someone from the aforementioned groups therefore have children with "increased" IQ ? Really ?

Were the British able to dominate the entire subcontinent for 200 years (despite being relatively small in numbers compared to the millions of Indians they were surrounded by) due to inherently superior intelligence ?

How far do we want to go with this ? Perhaps we should do some studies and find out.....

Just want to echo that I think it's brave for Abhi, and others, to talk so frankly about their experiences with caste on personal basis too -- and just call it for what it is -- that many so-called progressive and educated people, even today, subtly or openly talk about how better they are then everyone else -- and subtly act on these ideas too. And all those samajs out there, some of which have a "secret society" like operating status (I swear I saw someone who advocates on bone marrow donations in the S. Asian commuinity write about how he was disinvited from speaking at some BSNA or similar event at the last minute - for very vague reasons, about focusing audience dynamics or something maybe -- shady). And the comments from some of the youngsters on how they're proud to be b... yeah, proud for 3000 years of oppressing others, dividing Indian society, and Machhiavellian machinations from behind the scenes? Sure.

To just throw in another thing, don't know much about all this genetic business, but realistically... those of you who believe there are any pure peoples in India, c'mon... do you really think extramarital affairs, forced assault, abuse, etc. *never* happened for so many years? You can arrange the marriage, but you can't arrange who the real daddy is *ooops* Even today doubtful parentage is more apparent with DNA testing na...

AMFD AKA Spoorlam

I am not Spoorlam. I have been coming to SM from the time this blog was a few months old and I dont need an alias to make a point. So please drop this silly obsession of yours.

Anand,

The rise of lower caste power will definitely swamp the brahmins and other upper castes into insignificance. When it comes down to demographics, India's population is composed overwhelmingly of the lower castes.

If that's the case, let's hope that people from a lower-caste background don't continue any notions of thinking in terms of caste themselves if social, cultural and political power eventually "transfers" predominantly to them. Despite certain stereotypes, the "class" system is certainly far less prevalent here in the UK than it used to be once power genuinely began slipping from the aristocracy's hands during the last century.

Hindustan may soon be renamed "Tattistan" and the national flag will be changed to replace the Dharma chakra with a commode :)

I don't know if you're just joking, but I hope you realise how grossly offensive this statement is with regards to the implications of your perspective on lower-caste people.

This South Asia business is mostly a North American phenomenon and an affliction of second-generation ABD's influenced by SAJA and Prashad/Vinay Lal etc leftist cabal.

Once more, the righteous truth is exposed and PseudoSecular Mutiny quakes in their sandals!

Hindutvadi in California is speaking the unvarnished truth and soon the California Shool Governers will repent and weep before our power too if this warrior can be unleashed without anti-nationals slandering him!

This designation of 'South Asian' is a direct conspiracy fostered by nefarious left wing cabal to emasculate India and Hindus and turn us all into eunuchs. It is so great that brothers like Hindutvadi in Califonia and other titans of Hinduism see through this conspiracy and reclaim our testicles from this cabal, who are leftist and determined to steal our scrotums.

But Hindu testicles cannot be stolen so easily any more. After 20 million years of rape by Abrahamics and Arundhati Roy, Hindus shall be eunuchs no longer.

We have balls, and we are determined to show them, and neutering us by calling 'South Asian' will not work again.

Leftists shall steal our balls no more. Our balls belong to us. Our balls are saffron. We are not ashamed of them. And Pakistan shall tremble in fear when they see our balls, which are now nuclear powered, with IT outsourcing power as well.

Some questions to the so called 'inclusive' 'South Asians' who run PseudoSecular Mutiny:

Who funds you!?

Pakistan!?

Leftist Cabal!?

Wendy Doniger!?

Tell me!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I WARN YOU

Stop hypnotising young Indians with fun!

Stop distracting them from Hindutvadi textbooks in California!

Stop oppressing Indians with 'inclusiveness'!

Stop conspiracy and mafia cabal to destroy and oppress Hindus!

Answer this question, PseudoSecular Mutiny (or should I say, 'Leftist-Cabal-Conspiracy-to-Destroy-India-Mutiny')

*Why are you leftist mafia shitting on me?!

Stop persecuting me!

I demand!

And don't hypnotise Indian American youths!

Or I'll be angry!

Give me my balls back!

Hail Mogambo!

Wow. Way to jump on a commenter, A N N A- I think "casual observer" was just trying to encourage Abhi to blog on more Indian issues such as this because this topic is generating a lot of intelligent discussion and interest from SM readers.

IMO, there's nothing "casual" about what was observed-- and that's why I reacted the way I did. I read it and immediately thought of the entire "Indian vs. South Asian" debate which has once again crashed our party; unfortunately, it's the fight that never ends and that is exactly why I pushed back.

This is a blog where plenty of people have absolutely NO problem telling me exactly what they think of my thoughts and I won't be denied the right to do similar. You find "intelligence" and "interest" from our readers and that isn't some happy accident which proves our opponent's point. I found parts of this discussion offensive, ignorant and rather useless (and that is why certain comments have been deleted and why the trolls who left them were banned).

Great post, Abhi.

Yes, it is.

SpoorLam: i lowe the you. You have biggest balls of saffron of all ;) You have arranged a good match for your cousin sister, how about me next (with you)? I shyly hide behind my dupatta hoping for our perfect horoscopic match -- I hope we are better match than Ram-Sita (and that you turn me out at my worst moment only if you have to)! If only hope our parents and whole panchayat will bless it too!

Ha ha Good work friend... would be awesome if you become a guest blogger some day :)

I'm also now a SpoorLam fan -- your comments are hilarious. Thanks for making this thread a little more bearable, espcially after the egregiously offensive comments from Anand about "Tattistan." This person should be banned -- you can't conceal your bigotry behind the veil of legitimate genetics research, the conclusions of which you've completely misconstrued to support your agenda.

hairy_d:

i don't discriminate, i regulate any shade of the a$$...

saurav:

the literature on the genomics of caste is big and getting bigger. i cited the bamshad study because it is a universally acknowledged landmark. it was the first large scale autosomal battery (a necessity as mtDNA and Y chromosomal DNA show confounding results, because the males and females of South Asian populations often have different histories -- e.g. male introgression w/ local female populations). And Parth Majumder's group in India independently replicated most of the major results with a different battery of loci in a followup paper in Genome Research.

jai:

I love it when people have absolutely no idea about the educational background of other people yet assume that the latter "knows nothing" when discussing a certain topic

Look. You said, period point blank:

Caste" is an artificial construct. Genetically, there is no such thing.

That statement is simply not true. No one who has looked at the sequence data could say something like that. Try publishing a paper that says that in Genome Research or Nature Genetics -- you won't get past review. I'm not trying to be mean or rude, just stating the facts.

regarding the rest of your comment:

Using some examples, is there any such thing as a Californian "race" ? For a long time, people in towns, villages, and cities in the West rarely migrated outside of their locality and married only amongst themselves; would it therefore be appropriate to classify such individuals into "actual" races constituting human sub-groups/sub-divisions, even if we use the term "caste" instead ?

Bolded premise is false as it's not true that this has happened for a "long time". Migration dominates the recent past of California. As you may know, if you look at the evolution equation for a quantitative trait or the allele frequency of a single locus, migration on that scale will tend to make a population well mixed and prevent differentiation. You can show this easily with an island model.

do you really think extramarital affairs, forced assault, abuse, etc. *never* happened for so many years?

Yeah, well, the amazing and perhaps counterintuitive fact about South Asia is that populations are in fact *not* well mixed despite their geographic proximity. Seems like religious taboos were pretty intense. You can in fact work out the amount of gene flow between caste groups from the available sequence data to determine the extent of endogamy. First cite above does exactly that and pegs it at 1-2 percent per generation. Once we start using some of the new Affy 500k chips on South Asian populations we will be able to make that number more precise. However by any measure endogamy rates have been very high.

I'm not saying this is a good thing. It just is. And to say that caste has "no genetic basis" is simply not true. You can do blind classification studies given genomic measurements to identify caste, just as you can with continental scale race.

It may be the case that different caste groups are identical in all significant neurological traits while exhibiting significant, measurable differences in genome content. But given the facts on the ground, one cannot presuppose genetic indistinguishability to *rule out* neurological variation as was done above (""Caste" is an artificial construct. Genetically, there is no such thing. Therefore, you cannot "analyse" any alleged underlying genetic factors determining IQ.").

espcially after the egregiously offensive comments from Anand about "Tattistan." This person should be banned -- you can't conceal your bigotry behind the veil of legitimate genetics research, the conclusions of which you've completely misconstrued to support your agenda.

And he was.

Genetics do play a role in academic excellence. Definitely part of skills carry over from parents to kids.. But that does not mean skill can't change. For example, second generation kids of parents who made use of the reservation system to change their jobs/professions etc.. turn out to be equally good to their counterparts. A sample case is the cutoff marks for admissions to medical courses in Tamilnadu. It is around 295-OC / 294-BC / 292-MBC / 287-SC / 274-ST.. out of 300.. Many of the students who avail of reservation benefits who score such high marks belong to the creamy layer. But it puts paid to the notion that somehow merit is tied to one particular group by the use of endogamy (or arranged marriages within the same gene pool).. If you think about the person who scored the last qualifying mark (91%) from the Scheduled tribes, a couple of generations before his/her ancestors were doing menial jobs..
This is a good reason why reservations are needed and doing the intended job pretty good..

Reservations with the skimming off of creamy layer is what needed..

it will be interesting to see south asians loosing admissions in prestigious universities in US as a result of affirmative actions or quotas.its too hip to say you support quotas/affirmative actions when you are not on loosing side. I hope they bring 30 % reservation for blacks and 20 % for latinos with requirement only c grades and low sat score. and then we will see your brown ass views!!

Strongly disagree there. As an example my family is Brahmin too and I feel like some of them do lord it, even if it is in subtle ways.

So do all kinds of other people lord it. If you make a claim such as this, you need to show that your family lords it because they are Brahmin, and not because they have money, or privilege, or for any other reason. Many non-Brahmins throw their weight around, so your argument that your family lords it therefore Brahmins lord it is weak, if not entirely invalid. My family is also Brahmin and they are very humble and poor.

Secondly, it is the upper classes that talk about abolishment of caste, mixed marriages, etc. The lower castes tend cling to their caste. We need look for the reasons behind this before inflicting the supposedly enlightened views of the upper classes on the lower ones.

Someone posted all kinds of statistics about the indignities inflicted on dalits. This is true. If you delve a little further you will find that most of the atrocious indignities inflicted on Dalits are done by the OBC's. For some reason people automatically assume that it is the Brahmins who are responsible. This is not the case.

Being Brahmin has meant nothing since the 1960s when university quota systems were established and many Brahmins fled India for the west.

This claim that Brahmins "fled" to the west is bogus. Those who have apparently "fled" to the west are the priviledged people amongst Indian society. This is classic excuse of "victim-hood". Access to immigrate remains todate a privilege. These arent some people fighting tyrannical govt. Gimme a break !!!

FYI, for what it's worth I didn't see anand's comment on "tattistan" before I posted my original comment. I'm not defending that kind of sentiment and it's unfortunate that he chose to make his point in that way. Didn't read through the whole 100 comment thread and was primarily responding to the claim re: genetics of caste in my posts here. Anyway, I may be evil/etc. in some respects, but I don't endorse gratuitous denigration.

Many non-Brahmins throw their weight around, so your argument that your family lords it therefore Brahmins lord it is weak, if not entirely invalid. My family is also Brahmin and they are very humble and poor.

Yeah, like that was the argument I was making. Please. I am so sorry for persecuting Brahmins. I should be punished somehow. Maybe in a public square or something.

This comment is in relation to the thread regarding caste and its biological foundations. I think the most problematic jump in logic is when one connects phenotypic characterstics, such as skin color, hair texture and facial features, to intelligence. I believe Anand commits this flaw. What does the color of ur skin or the texture of ur hair have to do with intelligence? How do they correlate exactly? Biologically speaking.

It is true that you could create vague categories such as 'caste' and 'race' based on these phenotypic characteristics but these are no longer considered useful categories by most geneticists. Genetically speaking, we are more similar than we are distinct. Human are 99% identical genetically. Not suprising given that humans share the same ancestry dating back thousands of years to Mother Africa. The small bits of DNA strands that have resulted in different phenotypic characterstics can hardly be correlated to intelligence or 'IQ' (which itself is a nonsensical concept).

Also, someone mentioned that the term 'racism' was amorphous and poorly defined? If you are an essentialist about 'race', that is you believe not only that they exist, based on various physical characteristics, but also that these physical groupings determinine individual or cultural achievement/worth....then you are a RACIST.
Although the argument in this discussion was about caste, the central thesis is identical to one which a racist will defend. In the defintion above, simply replace 'race' with 'caste' and you will see the remarkable parity.

I suggest the racists be mature and face the fact that they are defending a doctrine that has been thoroughly debunked and tarnished(for good reason).

Anand has a nice theory on genetics/intelligence/reservations. Maybe he can volunteer his kids to be taken to a tribal area / slum and left there for twenty years (or maybe more say a couple of generations) and see if by natural intelligence they can come out of there with flying colours..

:-)

On a related note, I read recently that Akbar the Mughal ruler tried to find the natural religion of a new born baby by isoalting it into a room without any external influence.. And after a few years the babies turned out dumb..

Anuja,

Re: post #162

Superbly written argument, and exactly the point I have been trying to make. Thank you for stating your case more eloquently than I was able to.

If people want to subdivide themselves (and others) into pseudo-racial groups such as "caste", and want to use genetics as a way of somehow validating this kind of mindset, then they are welcome to do so. As for me, I think the whole premise is false from a religious perspective, outdated from a civilisational perspective, and one which should be consigned to the garbage can of history, rather than continuing to be used either to perpetuate notions of superiority or to provide yet another excuse to segregate oneself from one's fellow human beings.

Yeah, like that was the argument I was making. Please. I am so sorry for persecuting Brahmins. I should be punished somehow. Maybe in a public square or something.

Wrong apology. The charge was that you were being illogical and not that you were persecuting Brahmins.

Wrong apology. The charge was that you were being illogical and not that you were persecuting Brahmins.

You calling someone else illogical is rich.

Abhi writes: >>you can’t just set aside injustices of the past as if they stopped having any effect on the present. ...Sometimes two wrongs is the only way to do right,

Now now, Abhi. When Hindutvadis make these deductions about Muslims, they are flayed left and right. But somehow this argument is thrown about wantonly when it comes to reservations. By the same people who do the flaying!!

M. Nam

Now now, Abhi. When Hindutvadis make these deductions about Muslims...

Sorry, I have better things to do on my Tuesday morning than verbally joust with bitter Hindutvadis.

Anuja,
Excellent post. I second Jai's comments. I didn't want to feed that troll Anand, so kept quiet. There was NO LOGIC whatsoever in his comments. He had no place to go after saying people were genetically different or have different physical traits. Then what? How do you relate that to IQ? There is no logical connection. It's really amazing how hysterical and desperate some people are about genetic differences, biological theories of race etc. It would be more productive for them to try and understand their own investment in biological difference. To me, it's the most nonsensical and retrograde way of trying to understand culture and society.
Actually we do need to have more 'tattis' in India, and I am with Gandhiji--everyone should clean after themselves. And Anand should be made in-charge of them. After a year we should measure his IQ.

When Hindutvadis make these deductions about Muslims they are flayed left and right

HA HA HA HA!

Well done brother! Truly your logic is uncontestable!

We have flayed them with our saffron balls which are pumping in full effect now!

Let's see the PseudoSecular Mutiny wriggle out of this one!

I predict the response though, that the comparison is wrong because Hindutavadis allegedly kill Muslims in state orchestrated genocides and tear down mosques to satisfy their blood lusts and persection complexes, amongst other totality of bigotry, which is all fabrication of Arundhati Roy who was awarded prize by Muslim owned Halal Booker Prize.

If only they knew how we suffered! For 63 trillion years! Because the brahmin suffering under the Mlechha Muslim is directly equivalent, to the alleged oppression of chooras dalits (which is all fabricated)

Oh how we have suffered from their crimes! My ass is still sore from the Abrahamic raping.

MoorNam my brother, is your ass still sore? It must be why you are so reich about everything!

Hail Mogambo!

Sorry, I have better things to do on my Tuesday morning than verbally joust with bitter Hindutvadis.

Well, I for one am praying (but not to the Monotheists god) that Spoor Lam doesn't have better things to do.
S. Lam, we await your take.

Hail, etc.

All hail!

You beat me to it. Wow, Spoor Lam, your timing is impeccable.

Another victory for Hindu civilization.

i am happy i did not participate in this thread this long. they go nowhere.

see, it took till comment #55 (which has since been largely ignored) for people to even discuss something sane. first the reservation in question is not for dalits and sc/sts, they get nothing out of it, and no one wants to roll it back. the only questions in my mind are (i) whether you should add 25% more, or a different number (ii) whether there will be a loss of seats for merit based admissions now, (iii) is the current obc list really completely valid or should it be pruned? second, apart from a few posts after that, every post is either "brahmins are evil" or "no they are not". and not to mention the ridiculous racist comments thrown all around.

and of course, abhi the mess of course started with your blog itself. rss and narendra modi would be proud of you---your revenge principle is sort of what they have against muslims.

and of course, abhi the mess of course started with your blog itself. rss and narendra modi would be proud of you---your revenge principle is sort of what they have against muslims.

Yes, it was all about a revenge principle. Everyone knows how I support Modi and the RSS *sarcasm*. If you don't like my blog posts then don't read them. That's why this is a group blog.

what. bytewords. said.

Even among the zillions of unproductive, induce-anger-till-veins-on-your-forehead-throb threads on the internet, this one ranks pretty high.

Another victory for Hindu civilization

Victory is guaranteed! London bows before us and pride has been restored to England!

Soon the school children of Bakersfield and Santa Cruz-Watsonville will be trembling at the textbooks after we shame them into recognising the pinnacle of our glory. I am personally tracking the movements of elements of the Left Wing Cabal to their secret meeting place where they plot the destruction of Hindu civilisation. Doniger, Chaterjee, PseudoSecular Mutiny, Roy, Pankaj Mishra, all of them meet there in between offering dua to Jesus and Allah and machinate for the destruction of Hindus everywhere. Room rented by Pakistan ISI.

I am making a band of braves, led by MoorNam, myself, and the other great true Indian Americans of like mind to burst into their cabal meeting and threaten them with our saffron balls. So it shall be spoken:

"Don't twist our scrotum anymore, evil cabal! We have Infosys and 8% growth rate and nuclear weapons! We're the best minority in America and win Spelling Bees! The game's over for you Leftist Cabal! Stop hypnotising the American Indian youth to marry Abrahamics and negroes! Don't tickle our balls anymore, we have Hindu Pride!"

So it shall be. Hindu Pride will be restored. The Muslim's crimes against our collective persecuted ass will be avenged. Until we decide to avenge it again.

And we are also the most tolerant.

Hail Mogambo! etc etc etc

and of course, abhi the mess of course started with your blog itself. rss and narendra modi would be proud of you---your revenge principle is sort of what they have against muslims.

Why do you think "revenge principle" is wrong??.. Not volunteering for Abhi, he was mentioning the casual remarks he hears about Dalits by his family members and wants revenge.. Sounds logical to me.. In the same vein, Modi's revenge if he hears the constant taunts by Muslims on Ghazni's sack of Somnath sounds logical too..

Even among the zillions of unproductive, induce-anger-till-veins-on-your-forehead-throb threads on the internet, this one ranks pretty high.

have you read spoorlam's comments????

Why do you think "revenge principle" is wrong??.. Not volunteering for Abhi, he was mentioning the casual remarks he hears about Dalits by his family members and wants revenge..

How about this. The next person that leaves a quote misrepresenting me gets banned. Once again. If you don't like this post go elsewhere.

How about this. The next person that leaves a quote misrepresenting me gets banned. Once again. If you don't like this post go elsewhere.

chill out. what do you think, that you run this weblog? :) vox populi, vox dei!

If you don't like my blog posts then don't read them.

Oh come on---this is the kind of comment not even worth responding too! Still, I didn't ask you to not write blogs. And if you can write blogs, I can very well comment on them.

Oh come on---this is the kind of comment not even worth responding too!

And yet you did.

And if you can write blogs, I can very well comment on them.

Yes, and if you compare me to Modi and the RSS I can very well ban your ass.

How about this. The next person that leaves a quote misrepresenting me gets banned.

Evil Abhi,

LOL.. are you the real "abhi"?..

Dude this is what I read from the blog..

As I kept talking on the phone with my mom I realized what was driving my opposition to her support, albeit lukewarm, of the protesting doctors and students. I wanted revenge. I wanted revenge for all the ignorant comments I had heard about “Untouchables” on my trips to India. I wanted revenge against all the people that think being part of the Brahmin-caste actually means something, or is worth mentioning in casual conversation.

Now figure out what it means and tell me if my comment was wrong..

have you read spoorlam's comments????

Razib, it was funny when not overdone. Now its like a permutation of his previous posts.

But I agree that this entire argument has been derailed. First, by the unnecessary rants about race and genetics being determinants of caste, and later by this us-versus-them Brahmin/Dalit oppression dialogue. No one wants to address the issue of reservations any longer. Or of the merits of demerits of the system as opposed to affirmative action in education at all levels.

Now figure out what it means and tell me if my comment was wrong..

The impulse for revenge/justice one sometimes feels and acting upon it are two different things. I was admiting the base impulses within me that wanted to see justice for dalits even at the expense of another wrong. Comparing me to people who have actully committed genocide just because I admitted my passing thoughts to provide insight is unfair at best.