June 16, 2006
'Temple Cleansing' in Malaysia and PakistanReligion
A Indian blogger in Malaysia named Sharanya Manivannan recently posted an open letter to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, asking him to take a stand on the Hindu temple demolitions that have been occurring in the country:
But I ask you this: when temples that stood for over a century are destroyed, what really dies? Not stone and statues. Not bells and prayers. Not — thankfully and thus far — people. You see, what frightens me is not the loss of these temples themselves, though architecturally speaking, that too is often a disappointment. What frightens me is what these temples are taken to represent, and by extension, what their demolitions therefore represent. (link)
[Note: if the link doesn’t work, try going to Sharanya’s blog]
Elsewhere in the letter she points out that the Indian government did send a letter of “official displeasure” to the Danish government following the publication of the anti-Islamic cartoons. Why the silence so far on the “temple cleansing” in Malaysia? She also makes some poignant comments about how Indians are treated as a whole in Malaysia, which I’ll quote below the fold.
Some background: In the past few months, Malaysian authorities have demolished a number of Hindu temples in different parts of the country, stating that they were built without a proper permit. But local Hindus have complained that they had applied for permits, sometimes waiting as long as 30 years for a response! Moreover, according to the BBC, at least two of the temples destroyed were more than a century old, which clearly suggests that getting a permit to build is not at all the issue driving the demolitions. Indeed, it seems pretty clear that these demolitions are part of an organized campaign in a country that is growing increasingly intolerant of religious minorities. (Churches and other religious structures have also been demolished along the same lines.)
Indians make up about 8% of the settled population of Malaysia, which amounts to about 2 million people, and the majority are Hindus. For the most part they have lived in Malaysia in peace (communal violence is very rare), but Indian Malaysians do often complain of discrimination and mistreatment. They have traditionally been a working class population, who came to Malaysia initially to work on rubber plantations.
This turn is especially sad, as Malaysia (like Indonesia) has ancient connections to India and Hinduism. Tamil traders established settlements there as far back as the third century A.D., and ruins of ancient Hindu temples have recently been discovered.
Which brings us back to Sharanya Manivannan. In her blog post, she talks about a picture she saw in the newspaper that encapsulated for her the emotion these temple demolitions provoke in her. It was a picture unrelated to the demolitions, but somehow it triggered her to finally take some positive action:
It was a newpaper picture of a retired gardener, S. Sarimuthu, whose only daughter had died on June 11th as a result of viral eningoencephalitis and secondary pneumonia contracted while at National Service camp. In this picture of him, which I can’t find online, he looks profoundly forlorn. He looks like his heart had been wrenched out of his body, pounded to a pulp, and then poured back inside.
This picture made me cry and cry and cry, and then write this letter. And cry even more the morning after I did, as I explained to someone what made me do it. The family wasn’t Hindu. The girl wasn’t the victim of genocidal hate-mongering. But I saw that picture and in my mind I saw that father at hospitals, at home — I saw the way the nurses looked at him, the way the doctors spoke to him, the way hospital authorities dismissed him as she slipped into a coma. I saw him throughout his life, I saw the way this [f-ing] state in one way or another has taken away even this, even her. I saw the colour of his skin and the sheer, unmitigated loss in his eyes, the way his loss and the loss of these temples were entwined, and I could not not write this letter. (link)
Hindu groups are starting to organize and actively protest. The Indian Financial Express reports that Indian groups have been appealing to the Prime Minister of the country.
Also, in some of the press coverage of the temple demolitions, some Malaysian authorities have begun to express concern that Hindus may begin to turn violent in resisting the demolitions. In fact, the tenor of the resistance is already changing: several people were injured and arrested when they refused to vacate the premises of a temple that was about to be demolished. I wouldn’t advocate violence, obviously. But it may be time to get Gandhian on their asses: mass public demonstrations, and a campaign of nonviolent resistance. (And yes, Sharanya, keep blogging about it: make it personal, tell the world your version of the story.)
Two additional wrinkles:
While the Malaysian press, according to the blogger Sharanya I quoted above, has remained silent about the Hindu temple demolitions occurring in the country, I did find articles about the Hindu temple demolition that recently occurred in Lahore. [UPDATE: The demolition may not have occurred at all.]
Secondly, a version of this has been occuring in recent months (in reverse) in India itself, as an important 300 year old Sufi Dargah was pulled down in Vadodara (formerly Baroda), leading to communal riots that left six people dead. To be clear, Mandirs were also demolished in this campaign (now halted) in the interest of “development,” but the lead-in to the Express India story reminds us that India isn’t immune to indifference to the concerns of religious minorities:
Two demolition drives, and two different ways of going about it. So while in Gujaratâs cultural capital Vadodara, the BJP went about doing a “balancing act” by razing a 300-year-old dargah, in Rajkot, the BJP fought the Municipal Commissioner tooth and nail for removing a small temple that was encroaching on RMC land. (link)
amardeep on June 16, 2006 09:30 AM in Religion · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Thank you, Amardeep, for picking this up. Thank you for drawing attention for what is happening.
Two small things:
1. I'm not Malaysian. I live in Malaysia but I am Indian, with an Indian passport and no other citizenship or permanent resident ties. You can understand why I would feel strongly about this.
2. The first mention of mine name is mis-spelled. Sharanya Manivannan. (nitpick, I know. Sorry)
Pakistan has recently issued a statement that the Hindu temple in Lahore has not been demolished. The initial reports were bogus.
Article from Pakistani newspaper Dawn from May 28, 2006 on Lahore temple demolishment: Another temple is no more.
Excerpts:
LAHORE, May 27: In violation of its own scheme for management and disposal of urban evacuee properties, the Evacuee Trust Property Board (EPTB) has allowed a jeweller to demolish a Hindu temple and construct a commercial building in its place at Wachhowali in Rang Mahal...The Krishna Mandir, where the influential jeweller has been allowed to build a commercial plaza, was probably the only Hindu temple which still had remnants of a place of worship. This no longer is the case because the entire building, except a small portion facing the Wachhowali lane, has already been brought down by the developer...When a Dawn photographer visited the place early this week to take pictures of whatever was left of the temple, he was immediately surrounded by the henchmen of the developer. "Leave this place," they told him. "This is private property. We have invested millions of rupees. It has nothing to do with the EPTB. There was no Hindu temple here. If you are looking for a temple, go look a little farther," they told him when he insisted on taking a picture of the remnants of the temple.
18 temples were razed in Vadodara only 1 Dargah. Yes, the BJP is the root of all the ills of India.
Sharanya, I fixed it (sorry!).
Kumble, after seeing your comment, I did find a link along the lines that the temple wasn't demolished after all. This story is all over the Indian media, and if it's wrong that is a big deal, since quite a number of people in the Indian government have already made very noisy statements of protest about it.
RC, It was a 300 year old Dargah. Note that the emphasis of this post is on on the destruction of Hindu temples in Malaysia, which I am outraged by.
Today Pakistan issues a statement saying the temple wasn't demolished. Tomorrow there will be reports that question whether there was a temple in that building in the first place. Subterfuge as usual on the subcontinent.
Reports about Malaysian temple demolishments are kinda far more disturbing because these seemed to happen out of nowhere
Wow, thanks for this post. The reasons provided for demolishing these temples sound highly suspect. It's great to hear that people are organizing and resisting.
Amardeep,
I agree that the Dargah was 300 year old, but what troubles me is that there is no data on the temples that were destroyed. As if they dont count. (For the record, I have lived in Vadodara from last year of high school and college) For me the destruction of temple doesnt mean a thing. They usually do impede traffic and general development, but so do these Dargahs.
And I assure you this was not the last Dargah in Vadodara.
The outrage was only felt when the "Dargah" was demolished. If only Temples were razed it would not even have been news-worthy. I mean cmon lets get some perspective here.
I read your post and understood your position on being troubled by the destruction of temple in Malaysia, but then by adding the last paragraph you seemed (at least to me) to do the same kind of balancing by quoting, BJP's actions.
"the BJP went about doing a ￜbalancing actￜ"
Would India (or any other nation for that matter) be better if there were only one effective party (Congress in case of India)??? I think here in the US, it is called "dictatorships" (I am referring to BATH party), which are fair game to be bombed illegally without concern.
RC, It's true that comprehensive information on the temples that have been demolished is lacking in the English-language media, though editorials like this one suggest the temples were more recent constructions. And numbers shouldn't be too determinative: remember that Muslims are the minority, so there will be fewer religious shrines to begin with. (Note: If anyone reading this is actually in or near Vadodara and can supply us with more specifics, that would be appreciated.) I doubt the omission is because of bias; probably most reporters simply don't know.
If you read the rest of the article I linked to, you see the double standard in the way it played out:
In one place, the councillors stuck around to make sure the 'kaam' got done, while in another the councillors led a mob to protect a temple ordered demolished, and even physically assaulted the RMC commissioner. To me that is a clear double-standard: they follow the law only when it suits them.More links: A police inquiry; a new survey by the Vadodara Municipal Corporation; a plea for preservation in the TOI; and a very detailed account of what happened in Vadodara leading up to and following the destruction of the Dargah. That last link makes for eye-opening reading.
My friend Ranya is right, I totally agree. I'm not hindu, I'm malay in this country but I assume one of the reason behind the 'temple cleansing' in this country is because the authorities are afraid that other religion will influence Islam in this country. In Islam you are suppose to be kind and never belittle and look-down others because humans are divine because of their differences. It's a shame what they are doing, and there's no real excuse for it.
>>...Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, asking him to take a stand on the Hindu temple demolitions that have been occurring in the country
I hope Manmohan Singh does not respond to this. His job is to serve the interests of a billion Indians - not to save temples from demolition in Malaysia or Pakistan. If there is any active discrimination against Indian citizens, then he could step in.
I simply fail to understand the mentality of Hindus who have made no effort to understand the nature of the societies/countries they live in, and when shit hits the fan, they come snivelling to the Indian government for help.
I had an argument with some people who were planning to protest the Pope's assertion that Hinduism was false. They wanted the Pope to recognise Hinduism as a valid path on par with Christianity!! I told the demented idiots that if the Pope recognises this, then he will be not doing his job, which is to increase his flock by any means possible. If he recognises Hinduism as an equal, then he would be striking at the roots of Christianity! It took me more than two hours before the politically-correct brainwashed morons finally understood what I was saying.
Malaysian Hindus have not learnt the true nature of Islam. True to many Hindus' myopic ways, they have failed to see the sudden change in the last decade or so in that part of the world due to influence of Arabic Wahabiism. They deserve their temples to be demolished and to be forcibly converted.
M. Nam
RC
Given the situation in Gujarat in which a genocide took place only four years ago in which dozens, if not hundreds of dargahs and mosques were deliberately razed to the ground and destroyed alongside the pogroms of Muslims, it is not difficult to see why the demolition of the dargah was controversial. I take it you live in America? Just imagine four years ago the Ku Klux Klan in league with elected officials and the police decided to carry out a pogrom of Indians in your city, burning to death two thousand Hindus and destroying all your mandirs and shops, then four years later a significant site of worship was earmarked for destruction by the same people who carried out the mass murder of your community. Do you think it would be sensitive or suspicious thing to do? Think about it, because given the tensions and recent history of Gujarat in which Muslims have been persecuted and killed and made refugees in their own land like vermin, the dynamics and perspectives are not quite the same for them as they are for you as a Hindu, are they?
Hail Mogambo!
Shri MoorNam as usual tells the unvarnished truth about Islam. If only these buffoons knew the truth about Hinduism and our tolerance there would be no comparison. These politically correct morons deserve to be roasted by Mullahs and served as delicacy at Eid carnivals.
No Hindu is intolerant bigot either.
Hail
AyodhyaMogambo!I was under the impression that, technically, Muslims are not supposed to actively destroy places of worship belonging to other religions (and are also not supposed to allow the construction of new non-Islamic holy places on Muslim territory). However, they are supposed to refrain from repairing them due to damage or the usual wear-and-tear, presumably with the intention that the place of worship will thereby subsequently fall into disrepair and disuse.
That's my understanding of the orthodox stance on this kind of situation anyway.
Shri RC, this Amardeep is obviously a Khalistani in the guise of PseudoSecular aiming to destroy India with help of ISI funding of SepiaMutiny. Obviously, Gujarat riots is false history and so Muslims in Gujarat have nothing to fear from authorities when it comes to destroying their dargahs, because 2002 genocide was a conspiracy by Tehelka and Arundhati Roy in league with Pakistan, maybe Wendy Doniger too. Obviously, these Muslims in Gujarat are mad to protest against the angelic government of Gujarat and should be like Hindus who don't protest when our temples are destroyed, because they have suffered no trauma or victimisation in the last 4 years, not at all, none whatsoever. Nothing happened to make them feel vulnerable, they are stupid irrational idiots for complaining, ingrates and anti-nationals.
Hail Mogambo!
re: indian SES in malaysia, they have fallen behind under the "New Economic Program." at one point (e.g., 1970) they were more well off than malays, but they have been hit by the positive affirmative action programs....
This is suprising people? I'm actually surprised there are any Hindu temples left in Pakistan...and as for Malaysia, isn't the guy running it a Holocaust denier?
Speedy
Moornam:
You are being heartless. Is is so easy for Malaysian Hindus to emigrate and start a new life?
I think ANY new constructions of religious buildings (temples -- both Hindu and Jewish -- mosques, gurudwaras etc) should be banned. Huge amounts of money that could be used for education, hospitals, shelters, orphanages etc get thrown into these buildings -- and causes hatred and violence when it comes to bringing them down. Let existing edifices remain, but let us not KEEP adding new ones -- has anyone seen the ROADFUL of marble monstrosities on the way from Delhi to Gurgaon? It is scary: these are mostly, though not all, Hindu, and there is this horrible cheap competitive spirit of 'mine is bigger and louder and more flashy than yours' that various religious groups are indulging in.
Fink:
You bring up a good point that I had not thought of....
But I don't see anything wrong with a couple being built here and there, particularly in places where there is a lack of them. Like in Dubai, where our Hindu brethren didn't have a place of worship for a long time. Or like a while ago, when the 35,000 strong Pakistani community in Greece (I know! I didn't know we had that many of our bhaiyas and bhens in Greece!) had gotten a plan to build a mosque approved by the gov't.
I still largely agree with you, though. Too many mandhirs already, yaar. And anyway, don't Hindus have a personal mandhir at home? My folks do. "Bhagwan is to be found at home", they say. (Not that this means the destruction of existing mandhirs should be dismissed).
CAD,
Yes, I was actually also wondering whether I should qualify the blanket "no more" a little especially in places where there are almost no buildings-of-worship. Having none of one religion and already existing x number of another does not seem a good way to foster a multicultural landscape or make everyone feel included. However, the problem with 'a few' or even 'one' is where to draw the line -- especially since someone will always end up feeling unrepresented e.g. some group/denomination within assorted religions will feel it is not really their temple cos it is Catholic, Vaishnavite, whatever.
So...perhaps it would be best to say, enough is enough, no more zoning for houses of worship.
Or, to be precise, zoning laws will not allow any more houses of worship to be constructed.
Huge amounts of money that could be used for education, hospitals, shelters, orphanages etc get thrown into these buildings -- and causes hatred and violence when it comes to bringing them down
A good point indeed. I do think the current places of worship from all faiths and religions should receive protection through governments. May be it's a good idea to put effort into preserving what we already have rather than add more only to lament again when they are destroyed.
"Or, to be precise, zoning laws will not allow any more houses of worship to be constructed."
that's pretty impossible in a democratic country. the building of places of worship is not the problem (whether the money should be spent on other things is another matter altogether and a personal belief. but oftentimes, many places of worship act as centers for other social services for the poor etc.). the problem is the unregulated building of places of worship, and indeed unregulated/poorly enforced building period in india. witness the recent demolishment drive in delhi, which targetted illegal commercial buildings. zoning laws and building regulations should be revamped and instituted to prevent the proliferation of ugly, unsafe, illegal buildings, be they religious or not. this might stifle some of the unhealthy and ugly competition between religions to outdo one another when it comes to numbers and allow their places of worship to be built in a proper location and in a proper manner.
PGW writes:>>You are being heartless.
I am being blunt. That's my style, if you've noticed.
Is is so easy for Malaysian Hindus to emigrate and start a new life
It's not easy - but it needs to be done.
M. Nam
Malaysia is an interesting case, it has been considered an islamic country and part of the "islamic world" whatever that means.. But it is just 60% islamic and 40% profess other religions..
Too bad India and Nepal did not constitute a "Hindu world".. even with 82% and more than 95% (??) Hindus respectively.. Well tough luck for the "Hindus". Any case, the
"caste hindus" treat the "lower castes" as "Hindus" only when they worry about "numbers"..
They deserve it.. :-))
Without getting into anything mentioned in the above comments, would just like to check: are you all able to get to the link to the post itself that Amardeep uses above? For some reason, I can no longer access it, and neither can someone in India who wrote to me about it. I don't know if it's just the result of traffic overload, or something worse.
It is really sad that there is such a situation in Malaysia. I am not Malaysian and I am not Indian or Hindu but i lived in malaysia for eight years and I have to say that the discrimination of minorities in Malaysia is had always been very evident not necessary politically but also the way people associate or comment about minority groups. But many people go on pretending that everyone is living harmonously. As a Christian I still do not believe in discriminating another's religion because it is what they believe in.
That is one of the leading reasons why we are having unnecessary issues in the world today. There is just no more respect for people's believes and lifestyle etc.
am also not able to link to the blog anymore. was able to earlier. hope it's just a technical glitch.
If it is being blocked -- wouldn't only those in Malaysia be unable to see it?
The dargah gained in age from 50 to almost 400 in one week in the 21st century! Here's two politicians (none from BJP) claiming it to be 100 and 386 in the same report! The age I guess depends on who you are asking. It might be interesting to check when the person whose remains it is supposed to house lived.
Sharanya, it isn't working for me either, so I put up a link to your main blog homepage for people to click on as an alternative.
I don't think it's the traffic (SM is big, but it isn't that big). You may want to try going into Blogger and do another edit/publish without changing anything to see if uploading it again fixes the problem.
The way I see it. At least they're chopping stone heads off of statues instead of real heads of human beings. But that days coming any time now.
Amardeeep your reference to the demolition of the Dargah in reference to the destruction of the temple in Malaysia is well taken, but dont you think the denoument "India isnt immune to indifference to the concerns of religious minorities" is a bit far fetched. Infact is'nt it quite the contrary? Is'nt the common complaint that India is a little "too" sensitive to the sentiments of minorities. Why just a few days back we discussed why state after state was banning the code because - it hurts the sentiments of the people.
Robin, there is at least some archeological evidence here, courtesy of the British. Admittedly, the site may not be 100% reliable -- they are strongly critical of the government's actions. But it's the best (as in most detailed) information I've been able to find.
Have republished it. It works. Thank you, Amardeep. My heart has been beating so fast the last half hour!
Does it work for the rest of you?
It's past 4am here now. The technical glitch --- or all our gods forbid, temporary blockage -- was between midnight and now. Not being a techie myself I don't know what happened.
I have gotten a great deal of visitors with no referrals.. people must have figured out that something was up with the direct link and gone to the main instead. So, would appreciate if you could take down the new link you added - just in case I am under threat as a blogger. Wouldn't want that down too. (Unless that makes no sense? It's your call.)
Thanks.
Robin, on your second comment, there is a big difference between protecting freedom of speech (Da Vinci Code and so on) and physically destroying people's cultural/religious heritage.
I think it is possible to stand strong for freedom of speech at the state level (including the freedom to offend), while also standing against this kind of gratuitous destruction. If you read the accounts linked to above, it begins to seem clear that this site was targeted just to get at the minority and rile up communal sentiments. This is an act of aggression against a religious community by the state. The Da Vinci Code, the paintings of M.F. Husain, and the writings of Salman Rushdie, by contrast, are all the expressions of private individuals. People who may be offended can always choose not to go see the Da Vinci Code, see the painting, or buy the book.
Amardeep, I am not debating the question of freedom of speech vs demolition of physical structures. I think your denoument "India isn't immune to indifference to the concerns of religious minorities" is unfair. By and large India is very very sensitive to the concerns of its minority, even to the point of creating unfair and unequal laws and policies one may argue.
The dargah in question is politically manipulated by both sides. I wish you and I could go into the national archives and check records for ourselves. If you ask me I dont think anyone has. Therefore, in such situation I would'nt easily take sides on its antiquity.
Here's an experience I've carried since I was in in say fourth-fifth grade. In the mid-seventies when we built our house in Hyderabad, there was a fear that an impending railway line might run across the neighborhood letting the government take the lands/houses and offering us pittance in return. Week after week all neighbors met, wrote petitions, took officials to tour the neighborhood, bribed, sulked, dharna'd to no avail. Finally a muslim gentleman offered the only solution that he claimed could never be questioned. We built a tombstone for Maula Fateh ali (I think) where we claimed he was buried and was the place he often sat (chabutra) when he was alive. Everyone knew there was nothing underneath.
Anyway, the plans for the rail line changed, it passed several yards from the original and never intrduded the neighborhood anyway. However the Chabutra gained a reputation of its own. People made offerings, lit incense sticks, prayed and now thirty years later has an exhaustive legend that backs it.
Most people who lived in the neighborhood have either died, moved away or built high-rises sold to an entirely new generation of people. The chabutra remains. This was clearly one example where development (rail line) was almost thwarted using a spurious religious space. Ironically, the news residents now enjoy the same rail connection. Last I saw them, they even wanted a station there. The station I was informed will be called Chabutra :)
Sharanya, no one who has read your fiction or poems and also your non-fiction, like this, should ever doubt that there will be another Arundhati Roy.
Yes, I have crossposted this comment on your site because it's good to see you are are starting to get the attention you deserve in the world.
Amardeep, I'd meant to point your attention to another blog (seemed like from Vadodara) where the blogger had made several investigations on the dargah. Seemed to have lost it now. In case I see it again, will make sure to post it. The point I was trying to emphasize still is: The Dargah or its antiquity is riddled in politics. I'd be careful in taking sides - just for fairness sakes :)
The same way the "genocide" of Gujarat was "reported" by the media as 2000 muslims killed. Stupid morons repeat that as a Hadith of Koran or a commandment given to Abraham or a verse out of "Gita" where as the truth was that Post-Godhra toll: 254 Hindus, 790 Muslims .
But does that matter?? Every one knows about this "genocide" as 2000 muslims killed by a Hindu mob. So that becomes the reality.
This SpoorMal is a f@#king moron (I am not talking about SpoorLam, but this is similar technic as SpoorLam's). SpoorMal is an idiot and a broken record.
Now about comment #16 .... who the f$ck is this Wendy whatever??? Whats the relavance here. If this is the Wendy that worked in UT's Public Affairs school, then whatever she has to say, is fine by me. As she was hot (almost a MILF) and someone that hot couldnt say anything wrong :-)
ISI funding sepiamutiny ?? The writer/activist Arundhati Roy and Pakistan ?? WTF ???
And please be kind enough and do not answer my questions .. they were rhetorical, it may be hard for comment #16 to understand .. May be there might be a Brittany connection to Pakistan and ISI and this blog and Gujarat too, I dont want to know.
Mr SpoorMal (no connection to SpoorLam) should take his/her medications.
For whatever it is worth What lies beneath that Tomb Stone
Robin, I went to that blog post. The blogger first quotes Harsh Mander as follows:
No one seems to be disputing the 1912 marker. And no one is disputing the Parliamentary act that gives religious shrines built before 1947 "status quo" status. Instead, your blogger questions whether it is in fact a "religious" shrine at all:
On the question of whether it is a religious structure or a place of worship, here is the definition of a Dargah. It's a no-brainer, and your blogger is just plain wrong. On the question of federalism, Parliament must have felt that protections are necessary when local governments are too caught up in religious fervor to do the right thing. Anyway, it is the law of the land.
The reason I said in my first comment that these shrines impede progress is due to examples such as the one given by Robin in comment #39.
I know of a Hindu temple in the Vadodara suburb which is right smack in the middle of a road. People say that it was built not too long ago and now the road has to go around it. I dont know if its true or not as we lived in Vadodara for a short time. But I think that such buildings must be demolished. (I hope the City took care of it this time around). But thats just my opinion. I am not a politician whose constituents are of different religious affiliation.
MoorNam,
You are being heartless and simply blaming the victims.
As for being largely peaceful, most countries which allow state sanctioned persecution of religious and racial minorities are "peaceful" with no communal violence. This is why Pakistan or Saudi Arabia are "peaceful" (except when it is between Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan, and not even that in Saudi Arabia). The alternative for a minority in such countries is death or forced conversion. The strategy in Gujarat seems to try to replicate this situation, hence provocation like the dargah demolition. However, one difference that is to my mind crucial, is that these actions do not have legal sanction in India. Discrimination in countries like Malaysia on the other hand, is legally enforced. The state religion is Islam, and the civil law is Sharia, hence things like refusing hindus to cremate their dead and forcing burial instead, and now the destruction of temples.
If one takes the view that Mr Singh as Prime Minister should not bother about what happens in Malaysia, or any other country for that matter, then his government has no business playing religious politics by issuing official condemnations against the cartoons in Denmark. At least those cartoons did not demolish religious places of worship or violate personal rights. They were far less materially important than events like this. The truth is that the official action was another case of minority politics for local consumption. Such an action implies a certain twisted communal logic-that muslims in India are concerned about the welfare of the "ummah" to the extent that their votes would be influenced by events outside-or that they have divided loyalties. If the official condemnation was based on a real concern for minority rights, then it is perfectly legitimate to expect that things like the temple demolitions in Malaysia would also receive such disapprobation. And it would be a lot more effective against Malaysia too, given that India has some influence in the region.
I was in Malaysia last month for a week (Kuala Lumpur and Penang). Overall, the Malays, although religious, did not seem fanatical to me. Most of the women did wear the hijab, but there was a lot of socializing between men and women, you would see groups of teens of both genders hanging out in the malls together, even quite a few young dating couples. Alcohol is freely available, and they have the whole gamut of cable television channels, full unimpeded internet access, etc. Kuala Lumpur was a vibrant, dynamic city, full of modern buildings. There is a decent nightlife available. Probably the best mall I've ever seen, the KL Suria, is right at the base of the Petronas Towers (echoing Amardeep's comment about the close historical connections between India and Malaysia, the mall's name Suria is derived from Sanskrit 'Surya" or 'the sun').
HOWEVER...I talked to a LOT of Indians (mostly Tamils, some Sikhs), and a lot of Chinese (I think they are close to 20% of the population) and they all told me they faced tremendous discrimination. Malays refer to themselves as 'Bumi Putra' (also a Sanskrit derivative from Sanskrit 'bhumi putra', meaning 'son of the soil'). Legislation favoring Bumi Putras has been made law in Malaysia. I don't know all the details but this Bumi Putra legislation pervades most economic and educational spheres and confers many benefits to the Malays (and disadvantages to the Indians and Chinese). The Indians/Chinese have been in Malaysia for generations, see themselves as Malaysians, and most felt hurt and frustrated to be 2nd class citizens in their own land.
Furthermore, as for rising religious fanatacism among the Malays, whether it is happening or not, it is strongly perceived to be happening by all the Indians and Chinese I talked to, and they are all quite nervous about it.
You seem to mirror Jihad watch .
www.jihadwatch.org
This woman (girl?) is so brave it's almost shocking. On her blogger profile, it says she was born in '85 -- 21 or 20 years old?? My family is in Singapore now, but we are back in Malaysia often enough to see what kind of guts it takes to write a letter like that. I'm very happy that the international blogs have taken on the plight of the Indian community now. These shrine demolitions are only the most visible aspect of many, many, many years of discrimination toward Indians. The Chinese are a minority too but the most financially sound. So they don't get into trouble, at any rate never like this.
Expecting justice or equality in a muslim dominated society is foolhardy. Forget Malaysia, even in some Indian towns with muslim majorities like Aligarh and Mau - hindu temples are routinely vandalised, hindus harassed and attacked, prevented from practising their faith or celebrating their festivals in peace and with freedom.
But I wouldn't blame the muslims - one cannot criticise a mad dog for biting, it is in its nature to do so - I blame the hindus. For being so self-centred, self-loathing, timid and divided. If you dont fight for your rights, if you dont fight for justice, if you dont fight evil - which is your dharma - and surrender meekly, you deserve to be eliminated.
I am a Malaysian..but my govt doesn't think so.. My govt think that I am a Malaysian Indian..
My govt has been alientaing us for far too long.. but unfortunately my fellow Malaysians think, it is all right to be down trodden.. It is our fate.. our destiny..
After all we are indebted to the mighty( aka Bumi puteras) for our red passport...
Would anything change? Nope..As long as my people feel obligated, we will be down trodden..
Article 11 of the Malaysian constitution guarentees freedom of worship.. but my fellow Malay brethren will not grant us that.. and we don't dare ask.. First we let the British rule us.. now ...
Sarah:
Sorry to hear about your fate. I guess MoorNam was right again. BTW, what is the status of Malaysian Afirmative action program, where Malays are guaranteed a certain % or Board and university seats, among other things?
Sarah,
I am forever grateful that Singapore stuck up for meritocracy in 1965 and subsequently got kicked out of the Malayan Federation! I'm Singaporean Indian and the notion of permanent second-class citizenship doesn't appeal at all.
I always had some sympathy for the New Economic Policy (NEP)'s provisions for bumiputra upliftment (many rural malays were and remain poor) although it sidelined other poor communities (say the dirt poor Indian 'estate' labourers).
The first problem was in the definition of who actually was "bumiputra". Many Malays are themselves immigrants from the Indonesian archipelago (coming during the same colonial era as the inds/chinese as well very substantial immigration from Indonesia (estimates of 3 million) in the last 3 decades), though this fact is very conveniently ignored.
All muslims are automatically bumiputra and qualify for countless economic privileges (housing, education, employment, government contracts, government scholarships), ethnic origin is no bar, hell you could be Bosnian muslim!
The non-malay(2/3 are non muslim) indigenous peoples - the orang asli- are bumiputra only in name, and remain pretty much marginalised by the m'sian government and as shackled to poverty as ever.
Uniquely Malayan communities like the portuguese eurasians (christian) and the Peranakanans(hybrid, malayanised chinese, indians) have partial (token)or no bumiputra status though they have roots in the country that go back hundreds of years,a longer time than the many 'malay-muslims'.
The second problem was the implementation of the policy. Yes bumi stakeholding of the economy increased from 2.4% to just under 30% in 3 decades but malay-muslims, the poor rural ones, still make up 40% of the country's poorest households.A relatively tiny urban elite enjoy most of the benefits. The massive corruption (bumi-malays acting as fronts for non-bumi persons to get preferential treatment ) and inefficiency is something else. The race/religion based discrimination has become self-defeating. 95% of government scholarships are for the bumis though the top scholars are inevitably chinese and Indian. A further shame is that quite a few of these second-rate scholars fail or abandon their studies overseas, since it is privilege they came by easily and suffer no penalty for wasting taxpayers' money. Local universities all have stringent non-bumi quotas so you have cases whereby top non-bumi scorers (they also sit for much tougher different exam than the bumis in case you are wondering) are actually left out in the cold.
Despite all this, the Chinese and Indians have suffered in silence or left the country. They are still not complaining, at least not officially. The chinese community has had wealth and strong community organisations to cushion the blows while the Indian middle class has shrunk((about 0.5 million have left) and the desperately poor working class have the shittiest leaders imaginable to sell them further down the river.
Sarah, you could walk into S'pore tomorrow, and get permanent residence if not citizenship.
Sorry for the long post but this is just to provide a background to what is to come next! Which is the truly frightening part of what is going on in Malaysia.
I was in Malaysia last month for a week (Kuala Lumpur and Penang). Overall, the Malays, although religious, did not seem fanatical to me.
What outward signs of fanaticism were you expecting to see?
>>Most of the women did wear the hijab,
Well you need to know is that NONE of them ever traditionally wore a hijab say, just 20 years ago.What you also did not see is instructive. You also did not see traditional malay dress that are NOT worn that are now 'haram'which were common in my childhood. You also seem not to have seen any niqabis - as alien as they are to SE Asian Islam, increasing numbers of women now don them. Didn't see baby girls or toddlers in hijab either did you?
Fanaticism is relative. You have to know what local malay 'adat' or custom was here in the past, thus what comes next would not have surprised you.
but there was a lot of socializing between men and women, you would see groups of teens of both genders hanging out in the malls together, even quite a few young dating couples.
Malay culture has strong matriachal roots and gender relations have traditionally been pretty relaxed. But the social mixing has come under attack in the recent past.Traditional malay greetings involving touch and kissing of hands are now haram, more segregation exists in public/social functions, there was/is statesanctioned gender segregation in public places (supermarkets, hotel pools etc)the 2 eastern states held by the fundamentalist muslim party PAS. As well as huddood punishments (enactment has been stayed by federal law).
There is even in KL, religious police- looking for khalwat/illicit sex cases among muslims and most recently, a snoop squad for that spanking new metropolis Putrajaya, morality police to clamp down on PDAs*, handholding and kissing and other indecencies. There have been cases of non-muslims busted for loveydovey behaviour in public parks.
Alcohol is freely available, and they have the whole gamut of cable television channels, full unimpeded internet access, etc. Kuala Lumpur was a vibrant, dynamic city, full of modern buildings. There is a decent nightlife available. Probably the best mall I've ever seen, the KL Suria, is right at the base of the Petronas Towers
This is Friedman-lite, a really superficial look at another society.
(echoing Amardeep's comment about the close historical connections between India and Malaysia, the mall's name Suria is derived from Sanskrit 'Surya" or 'the sun').
A substantial portion of malay vocab is of indian origin. This historical connection is not warmly or universally acknowledged.It is too jahilliya for some with their new sensitivities. Modern India is seen as backward. If you want to work/live in Malaysia and your passport is Indian, you'll know how long your welcome lasts. Non citizens married to non-muslim malaysians have to wait on average 15-25 years to, just get permanent residence. In the meantime they cannot work.
Forget citizenship.
I am so grateful that this letter has provoked so much discussion. As the comments began to pile up here, there were many things that I thought I would respond to but felt that I ought to wait and see what transpired, and am glad that other voices representing minorities in Malaysia have emerged in this forum. I will continue to write about "my version of the story", as Amardeep put it, as well as the stories of others I hear and see and read every day. Thank you for all the support.
some links:
Did I say forget citizenship? Take a look at the citizenship status of 4000 supposedly bumi Orang Asli kids
temple demolitions, hindu
church demolition
country's second largest buddha statue destroyed, not on the bamiyan scale of course.
teapot cult's premises attacked ;they were eventually completely destroyed and set to torch;the followers are on trial for "unislamic" activities;the leader is on the run.
Sharanya,
I read the Baradan K article online Sharanya, and then went to a few malaysian blogs because the mainstream news media blackout on this is quite astounding, not a peep. Yeah there is the Mahathir-Badawi bitchfest of mammoth proportions sucking up everyone's attention but still.
Mirax,
Yup - mainstream media blackout. Malaysiakini -- an independent alternative news portal -- has been following the events though, but they require a subscription. Some of their articled are reproduced in full on my blog, as are links to the church and Buddhist temple demolition you mentioned. They are on earlier posts, which are linked below the letter.
Thanks Amardeep, mirax et al for the fascinating historical details. Standing up for the minority rights of only one's co-religionists is kinda problematic and runs counter to the notion of human rights, so I'm a bit wary of the hindu pride folks who want to defend Hindus in the far corners of the world and ignore their domestic problems. Much as I support minority rights in Malaysia, it's probably not the wisest thing for India to get involved because that will just increase the fifth-column/foreign sympathies image, won't it?
Mirax:
I agree with you. One week in a country is nowhere near long enough to really understand what's going on. My observations were just superficial ones; additionally, I was basically a tourist, and Penang in particular (due to the Chinese majority) is different than most of Malaysia. Even there non-Malays felt worried. I also an unaware of what Malay culture was like a few decades ago but I take your word for it. I guess it didn't seem fanatical in the way the Middle East does...but maybe it's heading there.
Sp,
I think it utterly futile for the Indian government to intervene and so far that call has been made by only one person, more out of despair than expectation. You will not find Malaysian Indians or the Chinese calling on China or India to come to their rescue - they are Malaysians first. There is little that I can do about the issue though I live right next door. There are malaysians - of all races and religions- who are deeply upset at the creeping Islamisation and who are at the forefront of the battle. What we can do is support them by giving publicity to their cause overseas.
You are absolutely right. In fact identity politics is a direct cause of the problems in Malaysia and it is not just hindus bearing the brunt (though they are the easiest target at present)of the injustice that race and religion based state policies create. All minorities - even the liberal malay muslims- are at threat. The temple/church demolitions show up one feature that affects all religious minorities : the state makes no provision AT ALL in terms of land allocation or funds or even a simple building or renovation permit for their houses of worship. This is in massive contrast to the many tens of million dollars lavished on showpiece mosques. Religious communities' attempts to legalise structures that predate independence (they weren't squatting on state land a 100 years ago) have been futile.
Besides the temple demolitions there are other deeply sinister events in the recent past that have encroached on the civil and constitutional rights of all malaysians, but particularly impacting non-muslims. These have to do with religious freedom, and changes to family law that affects muslim women unfairly.
Lina Joy (Malay)has been trying to renounce islam for many years.
This woman- Chinese convert- wants to leave Islam too.
These nearly 200 women's groups desperately wanted to stop amendments to the Islamic Family Law that :
eroded women's property rights
extended men's polygamy rights
extended men's divorce rights
extended men's rights over their wives' property.
They failed, and now they are campaigning for a moratorium on its enactment.
That is why there are groups like the Article 11 coalition (they seek to ensure that constitutional guarantees for freedom of religion for non-muslims is clarified beyond doubt). An article 11 meeting recently in a hotel was disrupted by 500 muslim hooligans with the police who were present doing nothing. There are human rights NGOs (multi-racial/religious), secular women's groups as well as liberal muslim organisations like SIS (sisters in islam)and a religious coalition, the
MCCBCHS( Malaysian Consultative Council of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Sikhism ) all involved to varying degrees in a collective effort to stem the rot. They are fully deserving of respect and whatever we can give them.
btw, I am not hindu but atheist and couldn't give a damn about temples per se.I do care about human rights.
Sp:
If your own coreligionists and co-ethnics will not stick up for you, who will? I think you are taking liberalism too far.
Look at the dates on all the links I posted, please. They all refer to events that have occurred in the last 6 months. Tells you something about the atmosphere in the country, doesn't it? And that is not an exhaustive list.
It for example completely avoids the highly controversial and frightening Moorthy case.
I could post you the news yesterday: the ulama?s ruling at Ulama Conference 2006 whereby it followed the National Fatwa Committee?s decision that celebrating the festivals of other religions could erode the faith of Muslims and lead to blasphemy.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19493697-23109,00.html
Why did the Indian MSM blackout this news ?
'Liberalism' today is an in-fashion tool for the spineless.
>>If your own coreligionists and co-ethnics will not stick up for you, who will?
Those who are not seduced by the siren call of "community"? Who'd prefer to operate on the basis of principle and fairness and due process?
Red Snapper:
When you say 'situation in Gujarat' what is your source of information? The muslim-deferring, hindu-hating media?
I was in Baroda when the Dargah demolition took place. Numerous temples were demolished before that dargah. There are peaceful ways to protest. What I saw was the supposedly 'minority community' attacking the Courts with acid bombs, guns, swords and the like. It makes me wonder where the Hindu swords were when their temples were demolished...
The reality is, in India, its a common thing to coddle the 'minorities' & be less tolerant to The Hindu.
Your comparision of Hindus in Gujarat to the Ku Klux Klan is so blatantly ignorant, it warrants the stand of hardliners like the RSS for a society which is more HIndu-tolerant.
was in Malaysia last month for a week (Kuala Lumpur and Penang). Overall, the Malays, although religious, did not seem fanatical to me...
when I read the above comment I felt I need to explain to the world outside what exactly is going on in Malaysia.
29th of sep 2001, Former PM, Mahathir Mohammed Declared Malaysia to be an Islamic Nation..It is not an islamic country. Malaysia is secular. We have been given that right in the constitution. But who cares about constitution, when you have 60% of the people's support. Who cares about the minority??
We have to write race in every single application form.. even a super market reward card.If Malaysia has Malaysians living there, then race is irrelevant..but no.. we have muslims and others live there..
Even if ethnic miinority lives in poverty, they wouldn't get a discount to buy a house, while the ethnic majority( muslim malays mostly) gets up to 7 % discount.. even to buy a multi million dollar home!
It took the Catholic church more than 25 years to build ONE single church in Shah Alam, capital of Selangor state.. while it is mandatory that every town with 500 muslim population should have a surau or mosque. Because our govt strongly beleive only muslims needs to pray and non muslims can go to hell.
Now that we don't get permission to build a temple or a church, the next step is to destroy the ones that are built already.. If we could jail a former deputy prime minister on trumped up charges, then you can imagine the clauses and rules that can be used to justify the demolition of temples.
Although Chiristians and Jews are people of the book and can marry a muslim without converting, it is n't so in Malaysia. This rule is followed very religiously..that you want to marry a malay, you must convert to Islam. .. and once converted..May god have mercy on you, there is no turning back..you can't go back to practice your original religion. Mr Murthi is one example, where a wife wasn't even given right to bury her husband..( we are still talking about religious tolerance!!)
A hindu mother had no rights in Malaysian court, when her ex husband converted to islam and also converted her children( mother has full custody) to Islam. The sharia court said.. they can't hear her case because she isn't muslim and High court said, Sharia court has jurisdiction when it comes to religion.. At the end the mother was told, that she cannot feed her children non halal food..( they are born Hindu0.. If she fed her children haram food, she would lose custody.. where in the world will you hear such ludicrous ruling by a learned judge.. Only in Malaysia.
It doesn't matter, if our Malaysian ethnic minority children score straight A's in exam.. they will not get a scholorship...but if the child has muslim blood any where in the geneolgy link..then the govt will offer the kitty.. Sufia.. oxford maths prodigy, whose mother is Malay and father in Pakistani, holds British Citizenship and full Malaysian scholorship!!)
The Malaysian Indians are the unwanted ones. They drink spurious liqour and are all gangsters.. that is what the govt beleive.. So they are in a process of cleansing.. If you are of Indian descent and are arrested.. then god have mercy on you.. your body has all the chance to float in the filthy Klang river(Francis Udayappan and many other unknown ones have gone that way).. We not only go afte our own Citizens, we even go after the ones who came to work in Muli national companies.. few years ago, the efficient Malaysian police arrested.. software professionals.. thinking that..they are like the ones from the estate and they can play with them and scare them a bit..BTW,.. if you are illegal and still a muslim, preferably from Indonesia.. then don't worry.. we send you back each year in a boat and you take a 2 weeks vacation in your country and we will welcome you back.. We are after all a fair country.
For writing this letter.. I can be arrested and kept in jail for 2 years without a trial.. that we call Internal security act..Still want to know why we keep quiet?? We have families.. they will not even see our dead body.
Hail Mogambo!
Shri CC, you really told the truth to these anti National bigots!
Anti-Hindu bigots are everywhere, even complaining about so called genocide of Muslims in Gujarat. It was a conspiracy of anti Hindu bigots to pretend such thing happened. We need to stop pandering to minorities and assert our saffron balls. Lets destroy some more dargahs and mosques to show how tolerant we are.
Hail
Ku Klux KlanMogambo!The most persecuted man in the history of India - what a gentle and beautiful hero he is - see how sweet and innocent his smile is - and how he leftist cabal of chooras and muslim denied him entry to New York and what persecution of Hindu Messiah - I want to stroke his saffron balls.
The Leader
Hail Modi-gambo!
CC,
There was a Pickled Politics thread at the time of the Vadodara disturbances.
There were 6 killed. 2 hindu,4 muslim. this is what I wrote then:
The two hindu men were tragically in the wrong place at the wrong time, caught up in a riot where there were probably both genuine protestors and as some of the posters mentioned above, maybe some criminal muslim elements. As were the three young muslim men (two shot in the head by the police as they were returning home after work and the third allegedly killed by police) - all equally victims of situations way out of their control.
i would place a lot of the blame for the Vadodara events at the door of the local government officials and the police.
(The fourth man, a muslim was burnt alive by a hindu mob.)
I agree that Muslims protesting have no right to turn on and kill anyone else - hindu/muslim/sikh. Same goes for hindu crowds. The problem seems to be that sections of any crowd out in the streets in India involves quite a few criminals and goondas and top-notch policing seems necessary to prevent tragedies. That policing seems noticeably absent in Vadodara.
The demolition drive- in existence for the last 15 days, 2 weeks!- does seem to me to be excessively rash. No one in tripura may have cared about an ancient temple being torn down- good for them!- but that was patently NOT EVER going to be the case in the destruction of the dargah in vadodara. I ?d have thought that many months, if not years of mediation and talks with the community affected, might have been prudently anticipated. People are touchy about places of worship being torn down or relocated, not least in a hotspot like Gujarat, not least a minority that has no trust in the govet. What were the authorities thinking?
The gujarat demolitions are crucially different from the M'sian one in that the majority religion was not spared in Gujarat.
Spoorlam,
you may be taking the piss but if parody is all you are capable of (where's your contribution to the debate?), you are as limited as those who stoke your ire. Hail mogambo yourself!
>>few years ago, the efficient Malaysian police arrested.. software professionals.. thinking that..they are like the ones from the estate and they can play with them and scare them a bit
I remember that. The Indian government stepped in with a very strong protest then and Malaysians were left looking very silly.
Shri Mirax
What debate?
I am being serious!
Hail Miraxambo!
ok you are a fuckwit. Greatly simplifies my response to you.
Thanks!
You have a good sense of humor!
Now stop persecuting me!
Hail Miraxagambo!
SpoorLam/Modi
Don't worry about what others think of you: I love you and your Saffron Balls, and that's all that matters.
It took the Catholic church more than 25 years to build ONE single church in Shah Alam, capital of Selangor state.. while it is mandatory that every town with 500 muslim population should have a surau or mosque. Because our govt strongly beleive only muslims needs to pray and non muslims can go to hell.
This is interesting. Can you give us some references??. I have also heard that it is almost impossible to construct a place of worship for non-Muslims in Indonesia (they have rules like all the neighbours should sign in etc..)
And Indonesia and Malaysia are touted as Islamic countries with a lot of "tolerance"..
They have an 8.5% Growth Rate, you know.
mirax:
A hindu was dragged into the Muslim lanes and was cut open when he was still alive. The muslims danced with his is entrails on the streets.
Sorry for the gory details, but seems like the media and 'liberals' like yourself feel the need to downplay 'Hindu deaths' and glorify 'muslim sacrifices'.
Its a sorry state of affairs when people who get their news from CNN go on and post about atrocities on 'minorities' in Baroda.
A few facts about the 'minorities who ve lost faith in the govet.' in Baroda:
1.The only shops selling guns, arms and ammunition are owned by muslim mullahs.
2. Right after the riots there were reports of LeT militants having met in Baroda.
3.Every year during Ganesh visarjan, the so called minority community attacks the Hindus that pass through the muslim dominated areas.
The Baroda Muncipal govet should have made more arrangements to counter the militant nature of the minority community in the event of dargah demolition, agreed. But that doesnt mean you discount what caused these killings riots in the first place. THE ABSOLUTE INTOLERANCE BY THE MUSLIMS OF GOVT POLICY.
Hail Mogambo!
These mullahs are scum! Without exception! They are intolerant of government policy to kill them all.
Leave a message on the Messiah's website and tell him how we must deal with those uppity anti-national Muslims with collective punishment - they have already forgotten the lesson we taught them in 2002.
Hail CC!
My link in post 58 has a human rights lawyer mention it:
He cited the case of a Catholic church in nearby Shah Alam city which got a permit to build a church after 30 years of trying. "What does this say about freedom of worship?" he asked.
BUT I have heard conflicting accounts about the time taken for the permit to be approved, ranging from 10-30 yrs.
And Indonesia and Malaysia are touted as Islamic countries with a lot of "tolerance".
Well if you have Iran or S Arabia as the base for comparison, they are. SE Asian
But if you look at them within their own historical, socio-political context, then they are getting more intolerant.
Indonesia has complex economic and ethnic problems ; M'sia has much less excuse.
Shri CC, you have to understand, this website is infested with anti-national liberal Democ-RATS, Muslim lovers, anti collective punishment liberal bigots, there are even some Abrahamics amongst them. For sure, a veritable den of anti-Hindu conspiracy. But your logic, tolerance and insight makes them quake in fear - truly we are the best.
Death to SepiaMutiny!
SpoorLam:
Yes, of course...your Saffron Balls have the Hindu Rate of Growth.
CC
Don't bother addressing me as I really can't be arsed to get into the nitty gritty of your hindutva whine.