Good for him. Finally a Democrat who doesn't patronize minorities. If he goes down, at least he goes down with his balls intact.

May some nice desi 7-11 worker get down on her knees and give him a big free slurpee.

May some nice desi 7-11 worker get down on her knees and give him a big free slurpee.

Why not "his knees"? Your comment blows (no pun intended). Figure I'm a trigga-happy blogger, so step back.

How come he didnt say South Asian American? He didnt know thats the term for desi people and their off springs here in Amreeka? Anna you should write him a letter of protest.

Why not "his knees"?

I see where your coming from.

Your comment blows

but my logic is rigid and firm

Figure I'm a trigga-happy blogger, so step back.

Step off Anna. You need a drink or something. A real stiff one.

wayyy too many puns in this comments thread... I'm gonna go take a nap..

This is whitey sickness, whitey racism, whitey's fault. Whether a "progressive" leftist whitey who thinks brown ppl need to be reformed of their evil doing sati dowry bride burning acid throwing ways which makes them so dang poor, or rightey whitey who flaunts his plato-to-nato triumphalist free market wherz the brown shakespeare we invented science whoo hoo bit, whitey just has it out for brown ppl. We need a revolution.

It is so funny to see so many people offended by that remark. Is this because he is a politician? Is it OK for him to still feel the same way but not say it?

Someone again please explain to me why any of this actually matters?

Being a former Indian American Democratic staffer in New Hampshire (you didn't know there were Indians in NH before this did you!), as well as a former member of the India Association of New Hampshire, this totally amazed me. My reaction- "wow there are enough Indian Americans in states like New Hampshire and Delaware that Biden would even be able to make a comment like that?!" (as lame as it was... I mean, he's a very smart guy, he couldn't do any better than that while trying to impress these Granite State Desi's?) It really shows that the population is, as the Senator said, "growing."

I'm personally not offended, more like impressed that this is getting this much media attention. Does that mean that our community is finally being recognized (or at least perceived) as politically strong, or it was a slow news day?

This to me is the more interesting question, not whether or not Biden is racist. I don't think he is. But I think everyone carries unfortunate stereotypes. Especially older white people. Let's be real: politicians are trained to not talk in the common vernacular. People like me try and train them, but sometimes the subconscious stuff slips out. Although is owning a Dunking Donuts and having an Indian accent a bad thing? It's not quite model-minority, a little more Apu from the Simpsons.... I don't know. It doesn't get me all hot and bothered. I hope it's not because I am a Democrat. At least he didn't call them "terrorists." And at least his legislative record is supportive of immigrant communities. In the end, that's what I care about. What he does, not necessarily the dumb things he says.....

Step off Anna. You need a drink or something. A real stiff one.

It's one thing to admire someone's "intact" testicles, it's quite another to end your initial comment the way you did. You didn't need to go there.

"if you need to F5 your memory"...classic a n n a

oh, one more thing: when I get a Jeep, I'm putting A N N A on my chrome.

Anna:

I keep waiting to hear a “sorry”, “my apologies”, “oops” or even a “dude…my bad”, but he’s got nothing useful like that for us, which is too bad, because that would have been one way to make this all go away.

I'd be offended if he apologized for that comment. Of course Dunkin Donuts are dominated by Desis. As if its something to be ashamed of. You ought to apologize to all the 7-11/Dunkin donuts/Patel-Motel owners! Thanks Joe, for noticing and for being first to support the nuke deal!

Prasad:

It is so funny to see so many people offended by that remark. Is this because he is a politician? Is it OK for him to still feel the same way but not say it?

I may be way off here, but I think people would rather he neither said it nor felt it.

I'd be offended if he apologized for that comment.

Good for you.

When I say something stupid which comes out the wrong way, I apologize because I'm not above that. That's the courteous thing to do. Especially since he likes us so much.

Of course Dunkin Donuts are dominated by Desis. As if its something to be ashamed of.

...annnnd now you're hallucinating, because I never wrote or implied that.

You ought to apologize to all the 7-11/Dunkin donuts/Patel-Motel owners!

For what? Your delusion or your confusion? BIDEN is the one who sliced our community apart on class lines, not me.

Thanks Joe, for noticing and for being first to support the nuke deal!

Non-sequitur.

In some weird way, I feel a strange sense of satisfaction that he said it. I mean he said it in public where he can be held accountable for his racism, not just at some tastefully held dinner party or golf game or whatever else white people do in their spare time.

As Siddhartha commented on another thread, racism should be called out and bashed around the head for what it is. Racist Democrats are just as bad as Racist Republicans and Racist Anyones.

Yeah we've all got ugly stereotypes we hold about others but everyone needs to work to get rid of em

Manju, your jokes are a bit too small-minded to hold up for v long :-P So stop being disgusting!

Someone again please explain to me why any of this actually matters?

Hmmm well possible presidential candidate --> poss. president --> of most powerful country in the world...maybe?

Anna:

See, I must be really thick, because I didn't see any insult from Biden pointing out that certain businesses are predominantly Indian owned. I thought maybe you were insulting by him mentioning one of the following.
1. ”I’ve had a great relationship.
2. In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India.
3. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.
4. I’m not joking,”

BIDEN is the one who sliced our community apart on class lines, not me.

"You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking."

Yo, that doesn't just say that Dunkin' Donutseses are dominated by Indians. It says that in order to buy a donut there, you need to have an Indian accent, like you won't be understood otherwise. He's got advisors. If this isn't EXACTLY what he meant, he could have rephrased, but he stuck to what he said. By the way, he went on to say after his defense of his original statement, "I could have said that 40 years ago about walking into a delicatessen and saying an Italian accent in my state (from that NYT article)."

Look, I'm not saying that this should end his political career or anything, and it certainly won't. It'll be forgotten in about five minutes. But I see no reason why politicians (or anyone, for that matter) shouldn't be taken to task for saying dumb shit like that - ESPECIALLY old white men, because we're going to be stuck with them for at least a few more decades.

Someone again please explain to me why any of this actually matters?

My thoughts exactly. Again, a tempest in a teapot.

It's one thing to admire someone's "intact" testicles, it's quite another to end your initial comment the way you did. You didn't need to go there.

I’m sorry if I offended anyone. I was taken out of context. Of course, the Indian community is made up of hardworking, patriotic, and diverse people who are dedicated to their families, their religion, America, and freedom, and do not give away free slurpees.

tashie, vivek- I compeletly agree. It was a dumb comment. He needed to be called out on it. He needs to educated about stereotypes and how they hurt communities, AND he is a powerful politician and should be held to a higher standard. And he has been. So, now what. What does this all mean? I wasn't making exuses for the man... just not sure what this really amounts to. I'd like to be optimistic and think it may reflect some new level of awareness of our communities growth and class diversity...but that's probably not what's driving the story. Anyway, to me the REAL racism going on in DC is the Republican Congress' vehement opposition to renewal of the Voting Rights Act, obsession with erecting a freaking wall at our border with Mexico, etc.

Someone again please explain to me why any of this actually matters?

My thoughts exactly. Again, a tempest in a teapot.

It's terribly inconvenient, isn't it? That we can't choose what offends others? Tsk-tsk.

Thanks Joe, for noticing and for being first to support the nuke deal!

Non-sequitur.

Well, I personally don't support the nuke deal, but for someone who thinks it's a legitimate indicator of support for community concerns, this isn't really a non-sequitur -- I take the point behind rasudha's comment to be: never mind Biden's dumb comment, I'm concerned about his positions and actions on issues of concern to the community.

Does that mean that our community is finally being recognized (or at least perceived) as politically strong[?]

Far from being a sign of community strength, I take the fixation with these kinds of comments to be a sign of political weakness and insecurity as a community, a sign that neither we nor mainstream media are capable either of keeping our eyes focused on issues that really matter to the community or actually exercising sufficient influence over those issues. Biden's position on any one of the following issues matters infinitely more to the community than his stupid comment:

http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=256167 http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=239195 http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=253018 http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=222640 http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=239185

Others may disagree with his positions on these issues, and that's fine -- but that's the level at which a politically mature community should primarily be evaluating him or any other politician. Fine, call him out on an obviously stupid comment. But only in proportion to its significance, and then please move on. If someone is going to get exercised about this gaffe, I would hope and expect them to expend at least that much energy -- and hopefully much, much, MUCH more -- on real issues of concern to the community. Otherwise, at the end of the day, all of this is just a trivial sideshow that risks turning our community's political engagement into a three-ring circus.

AK: I agree- but with that line I was actually referring to the mainstream media's and general public's perception of our political strength. Despite the community's self-congratulatory response to the US-India Nuke deal, it's not clear to me that we are players when it comes to major domestic issues, winning elections, etc. And for the record, with regard to the issues I believe are important to our community (civil rights, education, health care, immigration reform) I feel Joe Biden has been on our side.

Communis Rixatrix (achoo!) --

All that I asked was for someone to please articulate what exactly is offensive, and -- more importantly -- why it matters more than all of the substantive issues over which our community seems to get much less exercised. I'm not denying that there is something offensive about Biden's comment, but it's frustrating to see people get much more worked up about this comment than they ever seem to have about things that matter a lot more. Some other more carefully scripted politician -- be they Democratic, Republican, or Green -- might never say anything along these lines ever in their lives, but does that give them a free pass on policy? At the end of the day, is that really what's most important?

AK and mini:

Just to clarify - which community are you talking about when you say "our community?"

obsession with erecting a freaking wall at our border with Mexico,

In what way is that racist ?

Of course Dunkin Donuts are dominated by Desis.

What was he smoking anyway? The Dunkins I know (in several states) have no desis in them. In CA, there used to be this whole Cambodian Donut thing going on, but with some of the regional chains. Has anybody else noticed this? Is this a NorthEast Corridor thing?

Mini -- gotcha, I thought I got your point (and I agree w/you re: the nuke deal) but sorry if I misunderstood. I suppose I might still have the same answer though, which does not necessarily seem inconsistent with what you are saying -- if that's what the mainstream media thinks really matters to South Asian Americans, and they are not capable of evaluating and covering the community's interests and concerns at a deeper level, then at least to me that's a sign that the media doesn't really understand South Asian American communities as well as they can and should, and that perhaps we as South Asian Americans are not doing a very good job of engaging with and educating the mainstream media about issues that actually matter. But that still might be consistent with your suggestion that the very attention to Biden's comment is a sign that the media thinks that it might matter if the South Asian or Indian Amerian community has a reaction to it.

Vivek --

Just to clarify - which community are you talking about when you say "our community?"

What turns on the answer to this question? I definitely wasn't suggesting that South Asian American communities are or should be understood to be monolithic, only that there are substantive interests and concerns -- about which people within the community might well disagree -- that matter much more than this. But your question itself seems intended to make a point, so rather than my trying to guess what it is, let me just ask you by way of clarification what the point you wish to be making here is, more directly?

The Dunkins I know (in several states) have no desis in them. In CA, there used to be this whole Cambodian Donut thing going on, but with some of the regional chains.

Ennis:

You need to be called out and educated about stereotypes and how they hurt communities, especially since you are a powerful blogger. Just because you see no desis in dunkin donuts doesn't mean they're not there. They may be in the back making the donuts. There's obviously a glass ceiling at dunkin donuts.

And what's with the "cambodian dounut thing"? Are you implying that cambodians should stick to agriculture as Pol Pot wanted? I'll let you know that cambodians are very diverse and make more than donuts.

There was this strange but true case of mistaken racism some years ago:

D.C. Mayor Anthony A. Williams said yesterday that he will rehire a former top aide who resigned last month because some city employees were offended that the aide used the word "niggardly" in describing how he would have to manage a fund's tight budget.

Link

ANNA --

BIDEN is the one who sliced our community apart on class lines, not me.

Can you elaborate on what you are getting at here?

rasudha,

Maybe Anna was referring to this:

"I was making the point that up until now in my state, we've had a strong Indian community made up of leading scientists and researchers and engineers," Biden said. Lately, he said: "We're having middle-class people move to Delaware, take over Dunkin' Donuts, take over businesses, just like other immigrant groups have, and I was saying that ... they're growing, it's moving."

Anna, I don't think Biden sliced our community apart along class lines - Indian Americans ARE sliced along class lines.

That said, I can't make head or tail out of this statement by Biden because it's so ambiguous.

If those same exact words came out of the mouth of a Pat Buchanan/Rush Limbaugh type, I'd know exactly what they meant: "Well it was all good back in the day when THEY were working for US and developing OUR systems and technology to keep US on top; but now the scourge of immigration has taken hold and THEY'RE taking over OUR businesses, etc. etc..."

So what does it mean when Biden says it? He doesn't bother clarifying how he views this wave of "middle-class" immigration - whether positively or negatively. So those of us who like Biden are left to interpret for ourselves what he means by these comments. If we like him and we don't like going to Dunkin' Donuts and dealing with a brown immigrant face, then we can still like what he said. If we like him and we're all about Indian immigration to Delaware, we can also still like what he said.

Vivek --

So what does it mean when Biden says it?

This is an excellent point -- context matters a great deal here, but thanks to his being a bit of a windbag, it's hard to get a real handle on the context from which Biden's comment (or his clarification) emerges.

AK -

I wanted to make sure we were on the same page - as far as I know, Biden only has close ties with Indian Americans. This is a South Asian blog, so whenever the term "our community" comes up in this context, I never know what to make of it.

I wasn't trying to make another point at all, but since you picked out my skepticism about community in general - at least in the political context - here it is:

To identify the South Asian American community or the Indian American community or the Pakistani American community as political units is incredibly problematic to me because, even though you may be well aware that these are not monolithic in nature, they are divided along class lines, and those with access to power and who have the ability to articulate the interests of each community belong to a privileged class whose class interests are often opposed to the class interests of many of those whom they supposedly represent. Anyway, we can take this discussion somewhere else if you're interested in pursuing it.

But back to the topic at hand, which community were you referring to?

Hmmmm.... What happened to compassionate, benefit-of-the-doubt-giving Akka-ANNA?

Let people trash and thrash you . . . . Blogging has thoroughly taught me that the bile which they spew (my sinful self included, natch) indicates more about them then you, anyway. You deserve to be innocent until proven otherwise. And I believe that you might just be exonerated of these heavy, back-breaking charges which lay now on your similarly irrantharam shoulders. And if you should fall, while on your way, no matter what causes you to stumble, you will have my prayers and support. We are all human, pots and kettles the lot of us and we all deserve a little bit of compassion.

I kinda liked her. Atypically empathetic for a human.

AK:

context matters a great deal here, but thanks to his being a bit of a windbag, it's hard to get a real handle on the context from which Biden's comment (or his clarification) emerges.

Indeed!

Hmmmm.... What happened to compassionate, benefit-of-the-doubt-giving Akka-ANNA?

Wow...you really got me. I'm such a hypocrite. I'll go cry now.

In New Jersey and New York, I would say the majority of Dunkin Donuts are owned by Gujuratis. There's one dude, a Patel, who owns at last count 70 along the eastern corridor. He's the donut king. There is apparently racism coming from dunkin donuts itself: Ive been told that some Indians are having a difficult time buying franchises, and those that own them are scrupulously inspected for "cleanliness." I am sure Dunkin Donuts brand managers are cringing now - they have been stuggling in their efforts to gain a portion of the upscale whitey market by selling lattes, smoothies and what have you, only to be ground down by Biden's remark and by the hegemonic brownitude imposed upon them by market forces.

What turns on the answer to this question? I definitely wasn't suggesting that South Asian American communities are or should be understood to be monolithic, only that there are substantive interests and concerns -- about which people within the community might well disagree -- that matter much more than this

Condemning ANY stereotyping of browns should be of paramount concern, and should transcend political interests, especially when the perpetrators have substantial poiltical power. Whether your (wo)man signed the nuclear deal or opposed immigration "reform", should matter not when it comes to (even benign) racist behavior. If we can't agree on that then we deserve to be divided and ruled.

Vivek -- got it, thanks for the clarification. For my own part, I was referring to the South Asian American community, recognizing all that you say, but remaining hopeful that there can be spaces in which a shared set of interests can be advanced across the class divide that you rightly identify -- not without lots of hard work, but I do believe that such spaces can and do exist. I don't know enough about Biden's relationships with "the community," however that may be defined, to respond to the rest of what you say, but I personally react to Biden's comment as a South Asian, not as an Indian -- while he refers to Indian Americans, the comment itself didn't strike me as one that carefully tried to distinguish in fact between Indians and other brown people who might be working in 7-11s and Dunkin Donuts. Maybe he did mean to be doing so, and his statement reflected some actual empirical data in his head about Indians, but it didn't seem that way to me.

If those same exact words came out of the mouth of a Pat Buchanan/Rush Limbaugh type, I'd know exactly what they meant: "Well it was all good back in the day when THEY were working for US and developing OUR systems and technology to keep US on top; but now the scourge of immigration has taken hold and THEY'RE taking over OUR businesses, etc. etc..."

Vivek:

Rush and Buchanan couldn't be on more opposite sides of this issue. Pat is a clssic conservative who has been consistently protectionist (as well as opposing the war in iraq on the grounds that we should only go to war for our self interest, not building democracy) while rush has been equally consistenly pro globalization and free trade.

Furthermore, the fact that you fail to mention pelosi, clinton, and Harkin ("We need to create jobs in this country, not China, Bermuda or anywhere else,") even though they fit the bill much more than rush shows the danger of these expansive definitions of racism...it is politically opportunistic.

In our tawana brawley culture, victimization is power. And everyone is playing the game, including indian republicans in regards to the joe biden. Republicans gleefully label dems racist b/c their anti-free trade policies hurt poor countries, when everyone knows their realconcern is for the unions and working class americans--like buchanan's is (sans the unions).

One person on this thread labled the position of wanting to build a wall to monitor immigration racist--no doubt that racists like this idea just like they like protectionism--but the idea is simply not defacto racism. There are enourmously complex issues of national security, wage depression, cultural assimilation, healthcare, etc that need to be addressed.

It's become the american way to use racism as a political weapon.

ANNA, don't cry, I wasn't at all trying to suggest you are a hypocrite. Was mostly just trying to be playful, and forgot to tack on the ";)" at the end.

(Sigh. Humans can be so prickly sometimes.)

;)

I actually didn't find Biden's words offensive, and it's certainly not racist. And not funny - since Apu has been at it for years. There are a disproportionate number of desis in certain business and it's fine to make fun of us from time to time, as long as it's done in good taste.

as long as it's done in good taste.

Good point. Cisco Kid. But I think a lot of people thought this was done in bad taste.

Condemning ANY stereotyping of browns should be of paramount concern, and should transcend political interests, especially when the perpetrators have substantial poiltical power. Whether your (wo)man signed the nuclear deal or opposed immigration "reform", should matter not when it comes to (even benign) racist behavior. If we can't agree on that then we deserve to be divided and ruled.

Too, true, risible invisible. Cool superhero-like name btw...hmm must get myself something more than a nickname name.

I can see some people's point here that this may seem like a storm in a chai-cup...especially when you think of how people would have reacted if Biden had said 'You can't walk into a software company without a slight Indian accent' instead of what he did.

He definitely made a racist comment and should be taken to task for it...

but I think it's also a class issue. I mean it's like when Latino film stars like Salma Hayek etc. got offended when some other old white person said there was no use learning Spanish because 'who would you talk to? The 'help?' Very different reactions than when people stereotype races in other positions like rich neurotic Jewish psychiatrists etc.

I know that for me at least a small part of my own cringeing the stereotype of the Indian bus driver/shopkeeper/Dunkin Donuts worker vs. doctor/software engineer is their actual job...I mean how many of the people on this site are university educated? This is where the real bite was in Biden's bark of a comment - if there's one thing a model minority is supposed to be good at, it's gettin' an education.

It's the class diviseness of his remark that really sucked. And that's why it was in bad taste, because unlike white culture in places like Australia/NZ or even Italian culture which Biden cited where a higher education is not so tied to class, in the Indian subcontinent there is still a clear class demarcation between different types of jobs, and a social stigma attached to ones that do not require professional qualifications.

You know Delaware doesnt exist just to provide transit from NY to DC, and to allow corporate headquarters to get tax benefits. I spent a lot of time at the U of D, and it really is that Indian in the convenience store and Dunkin business. I dont think I went to more than one(The one bang in the middle of UD) which wasnt owned by an India. Even more prominent was Indian ownership of liquor stores. So the sentiment regarding ownership was probably not racist ....but the crack about requiring the indian accent.. maybe not quite racist but definitely something wrong there.

Manju - you hit the nail on the head. Victimization is power. A pity that Indian Americans have jumped on the bandwagon. Not sayin' it ain't good to talk about these things but I find this witch-hunt mentality more distasteful than Biden's comment. The race card seems to be losing its punch so now people drag in the class divisiveness issue! Jeez.

I sometimes get the warm fuzzies when I walk in to some of these stores entirely manned by desis. Why is it a crime for whitey to feel he needs to work on his accent when going to these stores? Any reason why this is not interpreted as a mark of respect? In any case, his comment seems to have been an attempt at bonhomie and the reason it misfired says as much about the Indian-Americans as it does of Biden.

Manju (#41):

Rush and Buchanan couldn't be on more opposite sides of this issue. Pat is a clssic conservative who has been consistently protectionist (as well as opposing the war in iraq on the grounds that we should only go to war for our self interest, not building democracy) while rush has been equally consistenly pro globalization and free trade.

I picked two people off the top of my head whom I've heard unapologetically make racist and xenophobic statements. I don't see how their other politics are relevant here.

Furthermore, the fact that you fail to mention pelosi, clinton, and Harkin ("We need to create jobs in this country, not China, Bermuda or anywhere else,") even though they fit the bill much more than rush shows the danger of these expansive definitions of racism...it is politically opportunistic.

American politicians protecting the interests of working class Americans is simply not defacto racism. It certainly capitalizes on the association of fear of jobloss with xenophobia, yes. There WAS Hillary's gas station Gandhi gaffe, for which she was fried (rightly so) and for which she apologized. Maybe this would be a better example of another Democrat being explicitly racist.

Republicans gleefully label dems racist b/c their anti-free trade policies hurt poor countries, when everyone knows their realconcern is for the unions and working class americans--like buchanan's is (sans the unions).

Well, um, yeah. So why is it that you wanted me to call Pelosi et al. out? Most Democrats and some Republicans stick up for minority rights. Pat Buchanan refers to the possibility that whites will one day become a minority in the US as "the looming demographic disaster."

It's become the american way to use racism as a political weapon.

In the comment I've just quoted from, you called on me to call out the racism you found inherent in comments made by Pelosi, Clinton, and Harkin. Fair enough. If you want to do that, what business do you have asserting that [the accusation of] racism is being used as a political weapon? Is that how you were using it?

Lurkster (#46):

The race card seems to be losing its punch so now people drag in the class divisiveness issue! Jeez.

Actually Lurkster, for a while all human history was the history of class struggle. Then some folks figured that things like race and gender might figure into the struggle as well. Jeez.

To all my friends who have suggested that Joe Biden is smart and/or intellectual, what is that based on? In DC, it is a widely held belief that Biden is a pompous windbag. Did anyone see his performance during then-Judge Alito's confirmation hearing?

If Biden had said that, in Delaware, you can't be in finance or journalism unless you are Jewish, would that have been an anti-semitic comment? Or, in Delaware, you can't commit a crime unless you are black, would that have been racist.

Well, um, yeah. So why is it that you wanted me to call Pelosi et al. out?

Vivek:

You misunderstand me. I don't want you to call them out. I don't think they are racist at all, even hillary. I was saying that these individuals have said things that could be construed as racist and their postions are even more explicitly anti-indian (in effect) than rush's.

But we must consider that they may hold these positions b/c they have other prioities, as would someone who wants to limit illegal imigration.

I am Jewish and yes, if he had said you can't walk into a bank without a Yiddish accent I would have been offended. That may be because the stereotype of Jews dominating finance is no longer true, and hasn't been since Christians began being permitted to lend money at interest - alongside Jews who were already exempt from the prohibition - around when the feudal period ended. As for Biden, it's more for Indians and Indian-Americans to judge how offended to be.

I will say that a republican would have been crucified for a similar remark.

Someone again please explain to me why any of this actually matters?

It matters because ANNA likes to make issues out of non-issues. This one was a godsend for her. Anyone who doesn't find Biden's comments complimentary to the growing visibility and enterprising might of Indian Americans is indeed stupid. Yes that's a sweeping judgment but that's how it actually is. SM is undoubtedly a barometer of young Indian Americans' views, and my concern is that such posts will be seen as reflective of their opinions by mainstream America. C'mon learn to take a joke or two. Biden meant no harm and he should not apologize. Indians please don't go down sliding the victimhood spiral like some other minorities have before.

while rush has been equally consistenly pro globalization and free trade.

And against immigration and outsourcing. What kind of a free trader is he?

I’m sorry if I offended anyone

What for? Stop being timid and goody goody to each other. As long as you are not abusive, you should be fine. Am I wrong?

Yes that's a sweeping judgment but that's how it actually is.

Now THAT'S a winning statement if ever there was one...

SM is undoubtedly a barometer of young Indian Americans' views, and my concern is that such posts will be seen as reflective of their opinions by mainstream America.

So we should go ahead and be disingenuous in order to make ourselves look good? This is exactly where this whole idea of community goes to shit - when it starts to deny individuality at the expense of the group. Guess what! While we are all part of this South Asian group, we are also individuals with our own opinions and sensibilities, shaped by our personal as well as collective experiences; however, there is no collective identity - we're not the freaking borg. If Anna was genuinely concerned about Biden's comments she has every right to be, just as I have every right to voice my opinion that his comments were racist but that it's not the end of the world, just as you can take it as a joke, and just as you can ask/tell the rest of us to take it as a joke.

But don't give me that bullshit about your concern about how her post and our comments affect mainstream America's view of "us."

Also, calling someone out on a racist comment is NOT a sign of weakness, and it's NOT playing the victim. It's a show of strength. If you don't perceive Biden's comment as racist then fine. But there are clearly people who genuinely did. Asking them to self-censor for fear of how others might perceive the community - now THAT is weak.

Biden is kind of a surreal character....to me he's everything a US Senator is, both good and bad. did you see the way he put both hands on the dude in the CSPAN tape. WTF was that? it was an all time power move......i'm so powerful i can put both hands on your shoulders after i said something to totally weird you out, and yeah anyone else doing it would like a total ijiot, but, hey i'm US Senator from Del (D)

anytime someone argues that the "model minority" syndrome is a myth, you can refer them to this. thanks jan jani for making it so plain.

Why is there a need to be recognised as a strong comminuty, when we have a whole country to call our own. I wish there was such strong emotional force that would have us want to belong to India and be strong Indians. If we want to become strong and change the people around us to get attention
then can't we foucs on our values that we carry from home and let everything fall in right place by itself. These are just some thought that crossed my mind while reading the comments.

It matters because ANNA likes to make issues out of non-issues. This one was a godsend for her.

I note with much interest that you didn't make this brilliant statement on either Abhi's or Manish's posts on THE SAME INCIDENT, in which they take the SAME position that I did. Golly...I wonder why you didn't accuse them of similar. I also notice that you like to make stupid generalizations about me. That, Jan Jani, makes you a JERK, and a sad one at that, since you prioritize what others might think over our right to speak.

What was he smoking anyway? The Dunkins I know (in several states) have no desis in them.

Ennis, it's only a bit of an exaggeration to say every Dunkin Donuts in the New York metro area is bong and specifically Bangladeshi. It's actually one of the things I'm most proud of--despite the fact that they don't necessarily treat the workers well.

This, of course, raises the point again that DESI DOES NOT EQUAL INDIAN (shouting not directed at you, Ennis) and is illustrative of the extent to which Biden is reinforcing preexisting stereotypes. Of course, I agree with a few people above that this is really insignificant compared to things like, say, the nuclear deal. Or to put it more productively, I hope that the outrage over this--to the extent that it exists and is not manufactured--is the starting point for more outrage against racism, sexism, worker exploitation, etc.--both structural and single-incident oriented--rather than an end in and of itself.

If he goes down, at least he goes down with his balls intact....May some nice desi 7-11 worker get down on her knees and give him a big free slurpee.

Step off Anna. You need a drink or something. A real stiff one.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Paging Dr. Freud ;)

It matters because ANNA likes to make issues out of non-issues. This one was a godsend for her.

Give me a break. Plenty of people posted and commented on this before ANNA said a word, and there is no reason to ridicule her for doing so.

Anyone who doesn't find Biden's comments complimentary to the growing visibility and enterprising might of Indian Americans is indeed stupid.

Anyone who can definitively make sense of what Biden was trying to say is indeed either brilliant or clairvoyant.

Ditto to what Saurav says in his second paragraph in comment #60.

Joe Biden is an insufferable windbag - mostly a harmless one, I would agree. He has never figured on my Democratic presidential dream team. Given that most Indians here are NOT in D.D., and Biden probably is more familiar with them at the NIH, in the hi-tech sector, hospitals and universities where he must see a lot of Indians with or without accents, reflects a certain mindset.

I think for older white American males who grew up seeing and expecting all power concentrated in their own hands, the changes of the last twenty five years may be a bit disconcerting and difficult to internalize. Also, it is comforting at some level to continue believing that all women are secretaries, African Americans are on welfare, the Chinese do laundry, Hispanics take care of the landscaping and in this case, Indians are pumping gas and manning convenience stores. That way you can go on believing that they are not threatening your job. (To hear my redneck Texas plumber speak, I sometimes almost begin to believe that my husband and son are about to usurp his job. He also has some "simple" solutions to the Iraq problem.)

Anna: You go girl!

AK and Vivek- I am like a whole day late on responding....I was referring to the Indian American community specifically, but think the same general issues (at least the domestic ones) apply community wide, whether your term of choice is "desi" or "South Asian American." AK- we're on the same page. I just think this whole thing is a hell of a lot more interesting and instructive when you look at the media motivation and the class issues these remarks bring up within our community.

Jaya wrote: Why is there a need to be recognised as a strong comminuty, when we have a whole country to call our own. I wish there was such strong emotional force that would have us want to belong to India and be strong Indians. If we want to become strong and change the people around us to get attention then can't we foucs on our values that we carry from home and let everything fall in right place by itself.

While I can appreciate your sentiment, I guess going back to the question of which community I was referring to, I mean the immigrant, American part of our community. My parents immigrated here but even THEY are Americans now. I'm an American of Indian origin who does carry with me many traditions and values of my country of origin, but this is MY home now and I don't really consider India or "whole country I can call my own." Even if I did, it would not mitigate the need or desire to be a an active productive part of my country of citizenship, the United States, and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.

Indians who have remained in India probably have the strong emotional force you are referring to. I believe my extended family, cousins, etc. do. I did spend a significant amount of time in India as a young adult..... and the experience made me feel more American than anything....

Today's (Saturday's) NYT has an article "...MAgician..." about Zinedine Zidane. Check out the one comment the reporter makes about ZZ
growing up in a cramped Marseilles flat and how it is related to him being such a great "mover in small spaces...." YUCK!!

I apologise if i have misrepresented in my comment. I do still believe that to earn appreciation of others we have to firt appreciate ourselves. If we feel proud to be desi then no one or no statement can put us down. As we learn from our scriptures that we become exactly what we create around us. People around us only project our own mind and beliefs. If we learn to look inside of us and find peace then we will see peace around us. When we look at a person and see the soul that makes the person then we will be able to turely feel and express the essense of "namaste". which means " I honour the light in you". Once we are able to do this....we can only be proud of being desi. Then we will be above our identity as immigrants or Indians. We will then give and receive nothing but respect and honour.

Saurav (#60):

This, of course, raises the point again that DESI DOES NOT EQUAL INDIAN (shouting not directed at you, Ennis) and is illustrative of the extent to which Biden is reinforcing preexisting stereotypes.

Point taken. I'd assumed that Biden knew specifically which country he was talking about (when referring to Dunkin' Donuts, etc.), but you're right, this might not have been the case.

tashie:

I know that for me at least a small part of my own cringeing the stereotype of the Indian bus driver/shopkeeper/Dunkin Donuts worker vs. doctor/software engineer is their actual job...I mean how many of the people on this site are university educated? This is where the real bite was in Biden's bark of a comment - if there's one thing a model minority is supposed to be good at, it's gettin' an education. It's the class diviseness of his remark that really sucked. And that's why it was in bad taste, because unlike white culture in places like Australia/NZ or even Italian culture which Biden cited where a higher education is not so tied to class, in the Indian subcontinent there is still a clear class demarcation between different types of jobs, and a social stigma attached to ones that do not require professional qualifications.

Given that most Indians here are NOT in D.D., and Biden probably is more familiar with them at the NIH, in the hi-tech sector, hospitals and universities where he must see a lot of Indians with or without accents, reflects a certain mindset.

Some of you seem to feel that there is a class issue here as if small business workers/owners are lower class than doctors or engineers.(Today's small business worker is tomorrows owner.) Don't tell me that it was Joe Biden who implied it. Let me assure you that, WE don't feel that way. My mother owned a indian grocery and my father has a lab. They are both graduate degree holders and both have accents and all of us worked behind the counter. My medical resident husband would rather be holding Dunkin Donut franchises than "takin it up the ass from his attending (doctor) every 5th day!" (his words, not mine.) If you don't think desis are not a strong presence in 7-11s, DDs, and numerous other small businesses you need to get out more. Stop acting insulted on our behalf! That's insulting!

Start by watching this program with Fareed Zakaria

Interview

Joe Biden has met me and many other desi business owners on his recent circuit gathering support for his run. He got to listen to some of our issues. I don't know if we'll support Joe Biden but I don't get insulted by remarks that can be taken any which way. He was talking to a crowd he's met before.

Please stop being Drama Queens!

Rasudha:
Calm down before you go all haughty on me! I am hardly offended on your behalf now that you have described in detail your antecedents. Heck, I am not even offended for myself. I just think Biden was being stupid.

Most Indians in the US are NOT in D.D or 7-11 - I stand by that statement. The fact that quite a few are, is a good thing. In fact I would hope to see Indians on the farms of the midwest, in philosophy departments (rather than just engineering and med schools) and as life guards on beaches. I was not being supercilious here as you may have presumed. That your M.D. husband would like a D.D franchise is an admirable thing. You should support him in that venture. I am just as averse to Indians being portrayed solely as cab drivers and gas station owners as I am to them being presumed to be cardiologists and spelling bee aces.

My point about Biden was that as a US senator, he is more likely to come in contact with the types of Indians that I enumerated. I hardly think he hangs around in the local seven-eleven or Dunkin' Donuts franchises until it is time to press the flesh every six years at election time. Which is why his picking the other, less familiar (to him) stereotype of Indians was troubling. Which is also why I speculated that it may be a knee jerk comfort net to think that way about minorities - "keep them in their place", in other words. Or who knows? Perhaps the dummy was trying to be folksy. But the foot is firmly wedged in his Irish mouth, as Anna said.

Rasudha:

Point well taken, I stand corrected (If only more people, *cough* Jan Jani *cough* could do the same) :-) thanks for the link and your comments, I just watched the interview.

I didn't mean to be insulting or that I look down on people who work in small businesses (esp. not small business owners). I have family members who have their own businesses and friends etc. I was just speaking from my own experience in NZ where Asian immigration in large numbers has been v recent and so many desis who do work in Subway etc. are not near being owners but part-time/full-time workers in low wage jobs.

Owning a small business or franchise is v different from being employed in a low wage job in a franchise that is part of a corporation, though. I know it's the American Dream to work your way up from sweeping the floor to owning the store, but I was just wondering how many people would get there? It's not just an Indian thing, I've seen graduates working in Starbucks without the possibility given to them of moving up beyond their position, and to me that lack of possibility is demeaning. I know that a Dunkin Donuts represents different things to you, but where I live there is a definite difference between business owners and business workers.

Also with class issues if you read my comment I specifically mentioned the class issues in the Indian subcontinent, not in the western world. I live in a country where a plumber or a sparkie gets paid much more than doctors/lawyers, and I used to live in a small town where the guy with the nicest house in town was a fisherman :-) And I am really thankful that things are way more laxed out here.

I was not proud of my cringe-ing or that of others, but I just wanted to admit something that's part of my hangover of living in India or knowing an older generation of Indians who do have a strong professionalism mantra. I know that it's not a positive thing but I know that a lot of Indians I know do have it as part of their own lingering prejudices.

I think it's great when Indians own business. But I will never think it's great when any adult gets stuck in a low-wage job, being paid the same as a teenager, without any possibility to move beyond where they are, is all.

tashie,

A lot of people dont realize that there is a system followed by small business owning desis who co-opt family members to work their businesses in return for future loan/aid in opening their own business. That's how these people are succeeding. Outsiders don't know that. They aren't being menials for the rest of their lives. They are investing in their future. Most of them that is. We take time to talk to people who came into our store so we know about it. A lot of these people end up being more successful than your average professional. And the next generation does even better. A successful Gujju once told me: "Work in a motel, buy your own motel, buy more motels, trade them for a holiday inn. That's how I made my money!" Another guy owns a series of Arby's chains. His two children are doctors now but everyone remembers them at the drive-thru window.

My parents came as professionals and ended up owning small businesses because it was better investment. I understand the attitude many indians have toward 7-11 owners, etc. But its their hang-up.

Also with class issues if you read my comment I specifically mentioned the class issues in the Indian subcontinent, not in the western world. I live in a country where a plumber or a sparkie gets paid much more than doctors/lawyers,

Tashie ji,

Even in India, the richest guy/ gal around the block is not a doctor/ lawayer, it is a businessman of limited education. Wipro started as a soap/ deterrgent company, then moved to many other things, and now is one of the largest IT outsourcing company in the world. I get the feeling you that lot of people like to pull classes/ caste in India card out of the blue, when do they have to a rope-a-dope trick.

I have serious doubts about their deeper understanding of India. Do you know the background of Dirubhai Ambani, the founder of Reliance Industries? He was an errand boy.

I have followed Joe Biden's career since 1988 faux pass. He is an extremely strong senate committee man, not a broad-based, country wide, mass appeal guy.

There is a lot of working class Indian Americans/ immigrants in USA. I think his observations should be taken in proper stride, I somewhat second rasudha.

Please stop being Drama Queens!

After you.

Ruchira Paul:

My point about Biden was that as a US senator, he is more likely to come in contact with the types of Indians that I enumerated. I hardly think he hangs around in the local seven-eleven or Dunkin' Donuts franchises until it is time to press the flesh every six years at election time.

Did you see the Newsweek interview?? Didn't that give you an idea of where he could have met your 7-11/DD owners?

I repeat: ''I've had a great relationship. In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking,'' is Not Offensive when you think that he met these people at his fund-raisers!!!!! and like myself doesn't believe they have anything to be ashamed of!!!!! either in being 7-11 owners, having accents or otherwise.

Jeez...How's that for a rant :) Now I need a drink!

Jan Jani:

while rush has been equally consistenly pro globalization and free trade.

And against immigration and outsourcing. What kind of a free trader is he?

I didn't know he was against outsourcing.

I’m sorry if I offended anyone

What for? Stop being timid and goody goody to each other. As long as you are not abusive, you should be fine. Am I wrong

I was parodying the way politicians apologize.

Indians please don't go down sliding the victimhood spiral like some other minorities have before.

Well put.

Kush Tandon:

Even in India, the richest guy/ gal around the block is not a doctor/ lawayer, it is a businessman of limited education.

Communis Rixatrix:
:)

I don't usually comment on SM posts, but I thought as a Delawarean I should offer some remarks to clear up some issues about our senior Senator.

Saurav:

This, of course, raises the point again that DESI DOES NOT EQUAL INDIAN (shouting not directed at you, Ennis) and is illustrative of the extent to which Biden is reinforcing preexisting stereotypes.

I guess there's been some confusion about Senator Biden's intelligence with respect to understanding the differences in the titles we give ourselves. I'm not saying he's a genius...most politicians are not. But when it comes to international affairs, which encompasses South Asian matters, Biden knows his stuff. If you asked him, he'd be able to tell you anything and everything you would ever want to know about the region and its people, and he has usually been sensitive to differentiate between the many titles we use. It's one thing to call for an apology for his unfortunate comments, but it's a bit of a stretch to question his knowledge on "South Asian" vs "of a specific country."

Ruchira Paul:

I think for older white American males who grew up seeing and expecting all power concentrated in their own hands, the changes of the last twenty five years may be a bit disconcerting and difficult to internalize.

While I understand where you're coming from with this argument (based on his ill-spoken comments), I just wanted to point out that Joe Biden has been supportive of and enthusiastic about the growth and changes in the South Asian community in DE for the past twenty five years. He is indeed an older, white American male, but I don't think I can ever imagine him as having a difficult time internalizing the relative success of South Asians in the state. He seems to take joy and pride in our accomplishments. I think I might be stepping into dangerous territory here, but I'll try my hand at it anyway. We don't really have too many non-Indian South Asians in DE, and as such there's no real cohesive group for us. There is a sizable, cohesive Indian community, though, and he makes every effort to go to the Indo-American events and show his support of them and their recent accomplishments. I don't think he could possibly visit every brown (I believe a commenter once used "lightly toasted") family in the state, but I can tell you that most South Asian families in the state respect Joe Biden and believe he respects and appreciates their accomplishments.

Ennis:

What was he smoking anyway? The Dunkins I know (in several states) have no desis in them. In CA, there used to be this whole Cambodian Donut thing going on, but with some of the regional chains. Has anybody else noticed this? Is this a NorthEast Corridor thing?

I'm honestly not sure how it works elsewhere, but in Delaware just about every Dunkin' Donuts is owned by an Indian of some kind. Most (if not all) of the 30-something shops in Northern DE are owned and operated by Gujarati families in the area. I haven't really visited too many doughnut shops across the country, but I can say that at least in the DE/NJ/PA area most Dunkins are owned by Gujarati families. He likely wasn't smoking anything when he made that comment---he's been known to stick his foot in his mouth more times than one can imagine. It's unfortunate that he made this comment about a community that is likely his most loyal support base in the state, but I personally don't think he meant to insult anyone by it. I can easily see him messing up when trying to say "You can't walk into a Dunkin' Donuts or 7-11 without hearing an Indian accent," which would be a very true statement. Yes, he should have corrected himself if this was the case.

NYC Man:

If Biden had said that, in Delaware, you can't be in finance or journalism unless you are Jewish, would that have been an anti-semitic comment? Or, in Delaware, you can't commit a crime unless you are black, would that have been racist.

"You can't be in ____ unless you are _____" is not what he said, yeah? I'm not saying his quote was excellent or anything (far from it), but one should not change someone else's words around like that. Also, owning or working in a Dunkin' Donuts is perfectly respectable profession...how does it compare to committing crimes?

A N N A:

BIDEN is the one who sliced our community apart on class lines, not me.

I don't think he sliced our community apart on class lines. We do own a lot of Dunkin' Donuts, and a lot of us speak with thick accents. It's a shame that no mass media services have played all the clips of Biden praising the Indian community over the years. They chose this one, when most Indians in Delaware won't take offense to this. I understand the problem reaches wider because that comment helps perpetuate stereotypes, but that doesn't make it right for us to say things like he "sliced our community apart on class lines." If you're going to rip him apart, rip him apart right! Interesting graphic, by the way. Biden does indeed get a lot of campaign contributions from the MBNA PAC because MBNA (now Bank of America Card Services) is one of the largest employers in the state. That doesn't mean MBNA elected him. Delaware did. He's well-liked in Delaware...we put him in office because we think he does a good job, not because he has flashy campaign ads funded by his campaign contributions.

Tashie,

I am really sorry if I came too harsh.

However, the enterprising class in India has never cared too much about the trapping of education, at least for the first generation be it Ambanis, Premjis, or anyone else. The current CEO of Wipro, Azim Premji took a leave of absense from Stanford when his father died. At that time, they more a soap factory, and now...........

Azim Premji is shia muslim, which even in muslims a minority in South Asian muslims. Talking of class. Definitely, they are not the norm.

Some exceprts from Stanford website, they are pretty telling:

Indeed, Premji knows something about navigating challenging terrain. This is a man who transformed his father’s small company, at the time a cooking-oil processor in Jalgaon district 300 miles northeast of Mumbai (then Bombay), into a technology empire with a market cap “equal to Pakistan’s GDP,” as India Today correspondent David joked.

Premji was just finishing his engineering studies at Stanford in 1966 when he got word of his father’s sudden death. “It came as a complete shock,” he says. “I just had to rush back.” He had only one term until his graduation, a passage the news would delay 30 years. (Premji eventually sought—and got—permission to attend arts courses by correspondence to complete the requirements for his bachelor’s degree. “I had met all the core requirements for engineering—I just wanted that degree.”)

At 21 he had to get down to running Western India Vegetable Products Limited (a name later shortened to Wipro). Oddly enough, the thought of managing the family concern had never entered his head. “My interest was more in developing countries, more in a World Bank kind of a thing.” When Wipro began piling up profits, Premji turned his attention back to development causes, starting corporate and family foundations devoted largely to overhauling primary education across the country. (See sidebar.)

He finished his Stanford degree 30 years later.

sorry: WIPRO was a cooking oil factory.

Quaker09 and Mini bring up good points about the Indian-American community and its growth in Delaware, a trend I feel is reflected in Senator Biden's poorly timed remark on C-SPAN. Delaware is home to a great many pharmaceutical, credit card, and banking corporations. It is also home to the University of Delaware (and several community colleges) and the Christiana Care hospital network. The majority of Indian-Americans who have been in Delaware the longest are primarily employed professionals in these corporations and the demographic of DE’s community was originally largely upper-middle-class. As corporate and residential development in Delaware has increased, so has the need for waged labor, and recently more Indian-Americans have become employed in these types of jobs. Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds, gas stations, motels, and liquor stores are where most of this wave of immigrants are employed. It just so happens that Gujaratis are dominantly the microcosm of the IA community who own and operate these fine establishments. In parallel, there is a broader spectrum of income types among Indian-Americans in Delaware today than say 34 years ago when Biden first came into office. This trend is probably what Biden was referring to when he made his lame joke.

Sen. Biden has consistently shown his interests in the Indian-American community. From a purely political standpoint, he shows up to campaign, usually more culturally sensitive than he was on C-SPAN, at many Indian-American events that happen in DE. I’ve personally seen him at the annual programs held by the Indo-American Association of Delaware as well as the inauguration of the Hindu Temple of DE. He likes the Indian-American community because they are loyal and help keep him in office every six years. However, Biden is also a really nice guy, he is well-informed about the political concerns of the Indian-American community, and he does show his compassion readily. Anyway, when Biden said what he said on C-SPAN, I’d bet that it was probably a Freudian slip rather than a malicious attack. All that noise can make a man say funny things...

I'm honestly not sure how it works elsewhere, but in Delaware just about every Dunkin' Donuts is owned by an Indian of some kind. Most (if not all) of the 30-something shops in Northern DE are owned and operated by Gujarati families in the area. I haven't really visited too many doughnut shops across the country, but I can say that at least in the DE/NJ/PA area most Dunkins are owned by Gujarati families. He likely wasn't smoking anything when he made that comment---he's been known to stick his foot in his mouth more times than one can imagine. It's unfortunate that he made this comment about a community that is likely his most loyal support base in the state, but I personally don't think he meant to insult anyone by it. I can easily see him messing up when trying to say "You can't walk into a Dunkin' Donuts or 7-11 without hearing an Indian accent," which would be a very true statement. Yes, he should have corrected himself if this was the case.

This is really helpful, Quaker09. Thank you.

Continuing the discussion from the "Jingoism" thread, RC said:

Give me a break AK, If Biden would have said ... "You cant go into a high tech firm or a Hospital without meeting an Indian" it would not have been a story. period. Now you will deny that and say how we dont like positive stereotype and how we are so blah blah .... Everyone likes a comment that is perceived positive and no one likes a negative comment. Thats the crux of the issue.

As I mentioned over there, I think you really are severely misinterpreting both Biden's statement itself and many of the comments in these pages in response to it. To begin with, Biden himself made his comment in the context of at least trying to praise the Indian American community, and did so directly to an Indian American individual. So there's not really much of a basis to conclude that he intended the comment in a derogatory or negative way -- the guy was out on the campaign trail, for goodness sakes. Call me crazy, but it sure didn't seem like Biden was trying to create a Sister Souljah moment with this young desi guy by showing the restof the country how tough he is with the growing menace of Indian Americans taking over our nation's sensitive and critical infrastructure in Dunkin Donuts and 7-11s. (Or whatever.)

But obviously, many people here do nevertheless think that Biden's comment was offensive, racist, in bad taste, or something to that effect (pick your characterization as appropriate for the particular commenter). Myself included, at least at some level. So what, then, was wrong with Biden's comment? I think that's actually a fair question worth lingering on more directly than we have -- perhaps this discussion has treated that question as too obvious to address, or maybe it's just so hard to understand what Biden was trying to say when he was blabbing away that we have sidestepped the issue of making our own responses to that comment intelligible. But it probably is worthwhile to try to spell that out a bit more clearly.

To get at least some hint of that, you really should go back and re-read the comments here more carefully -- I think it's fair to say that for a great number of the folks commenting on this issue who found Biden's comment offensive or troubling at some level, the "crux of the issue" is not that they are offended at the notion that someone would identify Indian Americans as being Dunkin Donuts "workers" (as you would have it) -- as if that's some great insult -- but rather are assering a more complex set of concerns about propagation and perpetuation of stereotypes. I'll let folks speak for themselves and explain where they are coming from, rather than trying to put words in their mouths. But I don't really read most of the folks involved in this discussion -- neither Anna, Abhi, nor Manish, neither Tashie, Vivek, MD, nor Mini, nor really most of the other folks commenting here or in Abhi's thread -- to be saying anything of the sort.

In fact, quite to the contrary, Ruchira, for example, states explicitly her belief that "[t]he fact that quite a few [Indian Americans] are [working in Dunkin Donuts or 7-11] is a good thing." Saurav notes that Bengali ownership of Dunkin Donuts franchises is "actually one of the things [he's] most proud of."

(I also don't accept your premise -- if he had made the comments you have written about high tech firms or hospitals, I think many folks might indeed have taken issue with those statements for similar, if not identical, reasons. It obviously would depend on the context in which those hypothetical statements were made, and what the statements actually were. As Vivek wisely noted earlier in this discussion, context matters deeply in making sense of and evaluating these kinds of comments.)

To be sure, there are a couple of comments similar to yours, such as the odd statement released by Dr. Vijay. Those comments don't really make much sense to me -- they are really not responsive to what Biden actually said, tortured and weird and confusing though that statement was, and since they don't really explain specifically how and why they are reading Biden's statement the way that they are, it's hard to evaluate and make sense of them.

But this actually is an important thing to try to understand and be clear about. For if the underlying claim in those responses -- and yours -- is that it is somehow degrading or offensive that Indian Americans (or anyone else) would be identified as working in Dunkin Donuts or 7-11 at all -- well, then I find that suggestion considerably more offensive than anything that Biden actually said or reasonably may be understood to have intended.

to me the bottom line is that biden has a tin ear, as he has done a long time, as do most politicians, of both parties. it seems to come with the job. the underlying problem is that the political establishment is overwhelmingly white and deeply self-referential, it renews itself at a snail's pace (look at how few congress seats change hands each election), and like any in-group it has problems dealing with new communities. so you get these politicians making dumb statements, and that gets people like us in a tizzy about whether said statements are offensive or not. we can debate that til the cows come home, and surely it depends on context etc., but the unchanging fact is that we'd get fewer dumb statements if we actually voted out these perennial incumbents from time to time. they're a complacent lot, and we pay the price for their complacency, as well as their salaries.

Saurav notes that Bengali ownership of Dunkin Donuts franchises is "actually one of the things [he's] most proud of."

Not ownership dude. Workers. Chatting. Nice people :)

Saurav -- Sorry! But that fits my point better anyway. ;)

(i.e., your correction fits my point better.)

AK:

Thanks for having the patience to read my (and similar ones)comment carefully and make sense of it.

Quaker 09 Thanks for explaining Senator Biden's possible motivation. I still think that he is a windbag - albeit a non-malicious one. I don't base my opinion only on his silly quip about Indians and Dunkin' Donuts.

I believe that anyone who ventures to characterize a large, diverse group of people by assigning narrow attributes (good, bad or indifferent) to its members, does so at his/her own peril. The result is often a demeaning and infantilizing one for the group and an embarrassing "foot in the mouth" for the speaker. Unless people explicitly define themselves as in the case of political or religious groups, we should not automatically presume anything about their interests, capabilities or their philosophies. Having seen this stereotyping game from both the negative and positive ends of the spectrum, I am convinced of its perniciousness. I would invite anyone who cares to look at yet another blog, to read my commentary on this matter which I posted a few months ago where I was actually responding to a Jewish co-blogger who was happy about positive Jewish stereotypes.

Dynamiting one enemy post after the other.

Vivek

I was too timepressed to deliberate in my post and thus preempt your trite arguments, like the one below:

Guess what! While we are all part of this South Asian group, we are also individuals with our own opinions and sensibilities

I had meant to say most browsers ( other than regular commenters here ) would just glance at the original post and move on without discovering the diversity of comments in the thread that follows the post. The bloggers' on this site I am afarid to say usually don't show much diversity of opinion on such issues.

Offense is often taken when it was not intended.

ANNA

Just because your hypocricy and arrogance get such a freepass from the mostly spineless commenters, you have indeed begun to believe your posts and comments to be foolproof.

I note with much interest that you didn't make this brilliant statement on either Abhi's or Manish's posts on THE SAME INCIDENT, in which they take the SAME position that I did.

Manish is no longer with SM. If Abhi had already said what you mostly wanted to, then why write a redundant post? That's because Abhi had not taken the SAME position as you did later:

Abhi

Please don’t start an email or letter writing campaign :). This may have just been a very poorly executed joke on Biden’s part.

And this is what you demanded ( implicitly ):

I keep waiting to hear a “sorry”, “my apologies”, “oops” or even a “dude…my bad”, but he’s got nothing useful like that for us, which is too bad

Not too long ago you continued to cling to shameless Kaavya's defense even though one damning evidence after the other kept piling up against her. But you couldn't give the benefit of the doubt to a man who has consistently been friendly to Indians? With your self declared interests in Congressional politics you ought to know at least half of what Ash58 knows about Biden. I know someone before me pointed out your Kaavya-Biden hypocricy but the charge is worth pursuing because you so callously ran away from it the first time:

Hmmmm.... What happened to compassionate, benefit-of-the-doubt-giving Akka-ANNA?
Wow...you really got me. I'm such a hypocrite. I'll go cry now.

How do you explain the following?

May some nice desi 7-11 worker get down on her knees and give him a big free slurpee.
Why not "his knees"?

Does that remark offend you only as long as it's a 'she'?

That, Jan Jani, makes you a JERK

I am sure you have several skeletons in your blogboard to qualify you as a superjerk, but I'll allow others to make that judgment.

Siddhartha:

Where do I even begin with you man. If anyone ever argues that " Minority Head Up His/Her Victim Ass " is a myth, he or she should first read the following golden words excerpted from your soccer post:

Last year, severe riots and disturbances in the squalid working-class suburbs of Paris and other cities reminded France and the world that the daily lives of people of color in France are fraught with obstacles and discrimination; not that the complacent political class and intellectual elite seem much interested in doing anything about it.

or this nugget:

the underlying problem is that the political establishment is overwhelmingly white

and the piece de resistance was his post about the Whitey visiting a Temple in Delhi. A text book case of taking offense where none was intended. I can't find it. If someone does, please link it.

Tashie

(If only more people, *cough* Jan Jani *cough* could do the same) :-) Just speak for your (apologist) self.

AK

Anyone who can definitively make sense of what Biden was trying to say is indeed either brilliant or clairvoyant.

A big thank you!

jan jani,

nicely done dude. you've called anna arrogant and a hypocrite, informed me my head is up my ass, called the commenters here spineless, called comments that criticize you "enemy" and announced you are "dynamiting" them, insulted several of our valued regular commenters, and generally made a nuisance of yourself. you have no arguments, merely invective, and apparently some anger issues you might want to look into. you are not welcome in this house. your comment stands, for posterity. as for you, see you later alligator.

peace

Jan Jani stated:Dynamiting one enemy post after the other.

Siddhartha:you are not welcome in this house.

Dude Jan Jani,
Seems like you stepped on a landmine!

AMfD,

i know this is in bad taste but i'd prefer to call it an IED -- improvised editorial device!

peace

I know someone before me pointed out your Kaavya-Biden hypocricy [sic]

1. For the record, Jan Jani, I was NOT accusing ANNA of being a hypocrite, and don't for a second think that she is one. She might very well regard the two situations as different, which is entirely within the realm of reasonable possibility. Or alternatively, perhaps upon reflection and in dialogue with people in this discussion she might come to have a different view of one or the other situation, which would simply be a sign that she is thoughtful individual capable of listening and reflecting upon her positions, and learning from new situations. I was simply inviting her to elaborate upon where she was coming from, and while I intended to do so playfully, it obviously wasn't stated in the best way because it was misinterpreted both by her and by you -- although curiously, your misinterpretation has come after my clarification. I fully trust that she now understands what I intended. Whether or not she chooses to respond to the issue I was implicitly raising -- now, later, never -- is entirely her prerogative, and I don't regard her as a hypocrite if she chooses not to. Life is short, and there are a lot of other discussions in this blog to pay attention to.

2. Also for the record, I have no trouble accusing you, Jan Jani, of being neither brilliant nor clairvoyant, but rather a dimwitted hothead.

Number Six --

I have no trouble accusing you, Jan Jani, of being neither brilliant nor clairvoyant, but rather a dimwitted hothead.

Amen!

I watched the so called controversial clip of Sen. Biden, he does mention 7-11 et-al and in the same breath he did say " 30 % of Silicon Valley CEOs are Indians". The CEO part appear nowhere in the discussions, if the mere mentioning of Indians owming of 7-11s, make Indians angry, then Indians should not own 7-11s.

hey siddhartha,

wontcha reconsider this?

you are not welcome in this house. your comment stands, for posterity. as for you, see you later alligator

When I was told off on the Kaavya thread, slightly but still, I dealt with it and moved on. The question didn't come up of getting rid of the post or the poster. Ah can't be dealin' with too much censorship.