July 10, 2006
Lingering tension in GujaratNews
Despite the fact that the last remnants of my family (on both sides) emigrated from India twenty years ago, the happenings in Ahmedabad, Gujarat are always of concern to me. All of my relatives (on both sides) have returned to purchase homes in Ahmedabad. It is part of an economic boom over there from what I understand. In Ahmedabad, my family will spend a significant amount of their retirement years. I will also probably make several trips there. The Christian Science Monitor featured an article on Friday that caused me worry:
… religious segregation is expanding not only to places of worship, but also neighborhoods, schools, and workplaces. At the entrance of some villages, gaily painted message boards have sprung up since the riots that read: “Welcome to this Hindu village in the Hindu nation of Gujarat.”
Expressing concern over this increasing polarization, a recent report by a high level committee from the Indian Prime Minister’s office, to be tabled in the Indian Parliament in October, states that Gujarat still hasn’t recuperated from the riots in which over 1,000 people, mostly Muslims, were killed. The committee noted that several Gujarati cities and towns are sharply divided into Hindu and Muslim ghettoes. Muslims, a minority in the state, face social and economic boycott from society at large. The committee also observed that dropout rates of Muslim girls have risen. And there’s a dismal representation of Muslims in public-sector jobs.
“There’s a state of fear and insecurity among Muslims,” says a member of the committee. “The state government has done little to end the state of alienation…” [Link]
I think that it is naturally important to look at the source of any claims pertaining to ethnic relations in Gujarat. In the paragraph above a study was conducted at the behest of the Prime Minister. In this excerpt below you will note that the examination was done by one of India’s mainstream newspapers:
The Indian Express, a national daily, reported last month that Muslims are being sidelined from the Indian government’s ambitious antipoverty project that promises the country’s rural poor 100 days of employment every year.
“Where the communal divide was hardened, where violence led to murder and widespread arson … Muslims are nowhere on the employment rolls,” the newspaper reported after touring six districts within Gujarat where the scheme is being implemented. Not just are there information blackouts, even those Muslims who enquire about jobs are turned away, the report said.
In response, Bharat Barot, Gujarat’s minister of state for rural development, said that in villages “the majority community called the shots.” The state was probing whether the alienation of Muslims was deliberate, and, if so, “it’ll be fixed immediately…” [Link]
Many people that visit and comment on our site know that looking at economic data can sometimes cut through any potential bias. A BJP member of Gujarat’s government pointed out the following:
Chandrakant Pandya, a member of the ruling political party in Gujarat, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), calls the committee’s report a vicious attempt to defame Gujarat. “We’re for the development of all Gujaratis - and Gujaratis includes Hindus and Muslims,” he says.
Mr. Pandya points out that according to a 2005 report by the Rajiv Gandhi Institute for Contemporary Studies, a think tank led by BJP rival Sonia Gandhi, Gujarat emerged as the number one state in India in the economic freedom of its people. It also topped the nation in terms of development, administration, and curbing corruption.
“Such rapid industrialization and economic development wouldn’t take place if such prejudices existed,” says Pandya. [Link]
I wish he had not added in that last line. Such a sentiment leaves one open to ignoring reality. According to the article, some accuse the report that Pandya points to as unrealistic because it uses pre-2002 data.
The last time I was in Gujarat was 1999. The ghettoes that the CSM article points to were well established then, and so I find the title of the CSM article a bit strange. It implies that ethnic ghettos in Gujarat are something new. A Hindu driver that my father had employed would take great pains to drive clear of said ghettos. The one time we insisted upon entering one he was visibly nervous the whole time.
The article ends on a positive note:
Rahil Subedar runs a computer class for poor slum dwellers in a ramshackle apartment on the outskirts of Ahmedabad. Besides imparting knowledge about computers, local Hindu and Muslim kids are made to intersperse and participate in plays and cultural programs.
“When you participate in cultural programs together, you forget what religion your colleagues belong to,” he says. “Integration will heal wounds…” [Link]
abhi on July 10, 2006 04:21 PM in News, Religion · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I have heard two accounts of so called economic sanctions on muslims in Gujarat. Both were small businesses that saw their hindu customers dwindle after the riots.
one of my uncles is a tableegh activist who visited gujarat in 2003. he said that the hardcore muslims were rather cheerful and "strong in their faith." so, i gather that communalism has been good for communalists...big surprise.
An image that I'll never be able to forget is that of a man standing in a balcony, his palms together, pleading for his life. More than anything else, that image said, "look at me. How am I different from you?" Even now when I look at it, it sends shivers up my spine. What does one feel when the defenders become the assailants?
On a tangent, a friend's family from Delhi decided to move to Chicago after the Godhra riots. The government's (mis)handling of the situation scared them enough that, as muslims, they had no faith in the system anymore. My friend decided to stay in Delhi and I hope he never loses the faith or courage.
as an eye-witness to the carnage that engulfed Gujarat for 6 months, I appreciate you posting this Abhi. Indeed this story is far from over. See this article in The Hindu recently: http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/09/stories/2006070902600800.htm
Abhishek: The correct spelling of the state is "GUJARAT" and not "GUJURAT". Folks from other states refer to Gujarati people as "GUJU" in slang talk. Yes, what you witnessed during 1998-1999 family trip to Ahmedabad and few cities in North India was very eye-opening. However, I was born and went to school in Ahmedabad. My school originally was located in inner city area called "Mirzapur". I had to walk through some of the heavily muslim populated area which were intermingled with the predominantly Hindu areas. To name a few muslim areas: Kalupur, Dariapur, Jamalpur,Raipur, Saraspur, Khanpur, and so on... Except for brief period in 1942 (Prior to India's independence from British in 1947)Ahmedabad had no communal riots. As a matter of fact during Diwali festival, so many of the employees who worked for your Grandpa would come with sweets and wish "Saal Mubaraak" to us. Some of my best friends, even today are Muslims, Shia, Sunni, Vohras, etc. It is only in recent times that the dirty politicians are instigating poor folks on both sides and create situations where they can profit. It is well known that Mahatma Gandhi on many occasions went on indefinite "Fasting" to keep peace between Hindus and Muslims. Gujarat could use one soul like him right now. As for your concerns and fears of our safety down the road, when we plan to go back and "give back" to India our gratitude and thanks in some form or other, I assure you that Ahmedabad has come through in the past and will come through again and be envy of the rest. At person to person level Hindu-Muslims are Bhai-bhai. It is the darn Politicians who are playing on peoples emotion. "ISHWAR ALLA TERE NAAM, SUB KO SANMATII DE BHAGWAN"..........Love..Dad
Dude, that is embarassing! Having raised me though you should know that I am a disappointment to Indians everywhere in that I can't spell. I blame you. :)
deshi, u kant spel?
I love how he called you by your full name, so you knew he was serious. ;)
busssssssted!
My last trip to Vadodara, my family said this was happening. After the riots, many muslims have moved to more segeregated communities. The idea of 'strength in numbers' is what drives these moves. Many in the community were scared and sought refuge amongst their fellow muslims. Certain areas that had small communities of muslims, though perceived to be safe sanctuaries have grown very fast.
Part of the family business there is in land. You can tell from residential home sales, commercial property values, etc. that there has been a migration of some sorts. How significant is this? I have no clue since hard information is difficult to come by.
On the topic of India changing, do read Rajeev Srininasan's take on World Cup in Rediff. Yikes.....and then i made the mistake of traipsing over to his blog ...OOps!
Neale.
My family in India is entirely from the South, so I don't keep very close tabs on what is going on up north. I know when sectarian violence breaks out in the south, it's usually election time and is, in part, incited by local politicians/politics. Any idea how much of a role the local government (i.e., the corruption thereof) has in all of this?
Gujarat usually stayed out of the news till the late 90s. People in the North (Delhi, UP Bihar, Punjab etc) didn't know a whole lot about Gujarat, and the same was true for the people down in south (TN, K'taka, AP, Kerala). All of a sudden, Gujarat is all over the news..and sadly enough for negative reasons.
Ask any kid in one of these states to say one thing about Gujarat..and he/she'll will immediately say "Hindu-Muslim riots". This is a sad state of affairs...and the present government (in Guj) is taking no steps to amend this.
Nice Post Abhi,
The Riots that happened before and what's happening right now in Gujarat is of great concern to all Indians. I was born in Coimbatore, the conservative small city in the south. Its location in the heart of the South made it a confluence of Tamil, Telugu, Malayali and Kannadiga cultures and we generally had good relations with all religions and cultures. There were north indians but we didn't know where in North they came from really, so a Gujarati and a Bengali would all be just Northerners. If you were here to make money, we'll do business with you. There was much exuberance in the city's growing economy!
Everything changed after Babri Masjid. A proposed visit from BJP leader Advani was greeted with consecutive bombs at the political rally and even at the hospitals where the injured were taken. Riots followed, Economy plunged, the city was shattered. A lot of conspiracy theories surfaced: All the muslims in the city knew about it and let it happen or wanted it to happen...Muslims are aided by the Pakistanis, etc. Nothing we had EVER discussed before in Coimbatore. It was not a good time for the muslims. It was similiar to the situation of Sri Lankan Tamils after Rajiv Gandhi's assasination.
WE've come far since the bombs and the riots, and gotten past much of the paranoia. But all of us are worried about the next flash point. We, the hindus, generally detest the Gujarati/North Indian politicians for their violence mongering which doesn't end in their neighborhood. We as Tamils are concerned that our Muslim Tamils will feel alienated and influenced by anti-hindu propaganda. I know some of this is already happening. It's similar to the sympathy shared by all muslims toward the Palestinian crisis, etc.
Writing this brings tears to my eyes, because the average Indian is helpless to stop atrocities happening in Gujarat. But it's good to read South Indian names among Justices, Police Officials and NGOs who are aiding people like Rakia Jafri, wife of the slain former Congress MP from Ahmedabad, Ehsan Jafri.
Hindu Thanks Zahir for the link.all i have to say is pakistan zhindabhad
Let me put it this way, people in India don't realize that these politicians/religious leaders are screwing the future. When the Godhra incident happened I was in Gujarat. And politicians (and I am going to be flamed for saying this) including Modi, _actually_ encouraged the riots. His public statements actually encouraged people to destroy Muslim owned property. The riot mobs actually obtained the list of muslim owned business/restaurants etc, and burned each one down systematically, while the cops stood around and observed.
No wonder Modi won the subsequent elections easily. He is an RSS fanatic. People always talk about "Islamic fundamentalists", I call this guy and bunch of others Hindu fundamentalist. Hindu fundamentalism is a big problem. Shiv sainks are of this class (burning down greeting cards shops on Valentines day for the press)
The places in Ahmedabad Yo Dad is talking about are in the main city. Many of my Dad's muslim friends would call him in the morning and say "Don't come to the city today."
We complain about the legal system not working in India (Why is Modi still in power?) Instead of focusing his efforts on catching the people behind the Godhra train incident, and containing the riots, why did he _actually_ encourage them? Why the hell is he still in power?
Wanna know why?
Hint: The problem is in the minds of the people who put him in power. In a democracy the government is of the people, by the people, for the people. So you can guess which people I am talking about.
The problem is that the politicans we put in power are OLD, who are still connected with ideologies that are 50 years old, ideologies of the independance era. They still carry the prejudice of the partition. It's time, when the reins of the future of South Asia are handed down to the next generation.
Thats Qutubuddin Ansari. He came to be known as the face of Gujarat riots. http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/aug/07riot.htm. He has moved to Calcutta since.
Good post.
One of the important ways in which the post-Godhra Gujarat riots were different from communal riots elsewhere in the country (at various times), was the participation of the middle class.
Typically, communal riots seem to happen in cities/towns that have Muslims nearing 30% or above of the population. Having witnessed some riots in Hyderabad (both pre and post-Ayodhya), one noticeable fact was that riots occurred during times of political instability. For example, N.T.Rama Rao was the CM of AP between 1982-88, and there were no major riots. Between 1989-94, Congress was in power and each year, the dissidents were trying to unseat the incumbent CM, with the Congress High Command giving silent blessings to the dissidents. And the riots were used as a reason for removing the CM (failure to protect law and order). Of course, the riots in Dec 1992 were more vicious than during other years due to reasons we all know.
So, who started/participated in these riots? It is mostly petty criminals hired by local politicians, plus a large number of the poor, unemployed youth, who worked as the cadre for some of the parties. Apart from the economic incentive for these poor people, there was also the factor of communal frenzy being whipped up by the hardliners. I remember being stuck at a friend's place in Old Hyderabad for a day, and watching from the top floor the spectacle of two jeeps fitted with loud speakers, zipping through the lanes. They were playing sounds of people screaming in pain, shouts of a communal nature and so on - creating an effect as if hundreds of rioters were roaming the streets.The jeeps were followed by a gang of not more than 10-15 youth simply hurling stones at some houses, forcing the shutters open on select shops, looting those shops and setting them ablaze.
The middle class on both sides of the communal divide only tried to keep a low profile and save their skins, even in areas where their community was in a majority.
But post-Godhra riots in Gujarat, saw, for the first time in Independent India's history, the lareg scale participation of the middle class people (from both communities) in the loot, pillage and arson activities. People working in banks, private and public sector, came out, and looted stores belonging to the other community- mainly white goods, clothes, and in some cases even jewelry.
The questions: why would the otherwise apathetic, and 'fearful-of-violence' middleclass get into the streets? What kind of provocation would have caused this? What kind of changed moral values turned them into shamelss looters?
At that time, it looked as if the whole of India may slowly see that change happening?People belonging to the majority community growing not only less tolerant, but also actively seizing upon any opportunity to inflict social and economic damage to the minority community. If it has not happened till now, one wonders if it is due to the much maligned caste system and the resultant stratification of the Hindus. So, ironic, really.
The majority community almost always calls the shots. There is nothing sinister about this, unless they go out of their way to monopolize. Tradtionally, India has always been made up of ethnic "ghettos" (as we call them here). This too is not strange and is part of the make up of India and includes all religions. This is a form of their social security and is not a bad thing in any way.
Why is Gujarat so successful compared to the rest of India? This may be totally against second generation sensibilities but in India traditionally certain communities are good at money making. Yes, it's in their genes and oozes out of their pores. How do we know that this is simply not the case here before we go about making allegations? Now, if the Gujarat government is making policies that deliberately sideline the Muslims, it would have been nice of the CSM and the rest to bring these out in the open in a manner more credible than merely asserting that the government is doing so.
Hmm. Another of those periodic hate Gujarat hate Modi posts. Thing is - everybody has an opinion on Modi.I am sure it is cool, suave, sophisticated and an absolute must to hate Modi if one is to be accepted as being 'humane', 'secular', 'intellectual', 'progressive', etc. etc. But sadly, fact remains that the only ones who matter are those actually vote in an election in Gujarat. The 55 million people of Gujarat. People like me. Who put Modi into power in the first place.
So an ordinary Gujarati living in Vadodara, my response as well those of others is simple. Line up outside the polling booth on election day, and vote for the candidate representing Modi's party. You people keeping writing those anti-Modi, anti-Gujarat posts. Last time Modi won by a 2/3rd majority. This time its gonna be unprecedented. 75-85% would be a good guess if you are a betting man.
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'Yo Dad'....I appreciate your deteermination to 'give back'...but thats not necessary if you have Gujarat in mind. We need nothing from you. We are the richest state in India, with the best standard of living, minimal poverty. Last 5 years of zero-corruption free market capitalism under Modi has unlocked the potential people of Gujarat always had. We need big billion $$$ investments and trade. Not charity, if thats what you have in mind.
Go to Bihar or West Bengal. I'm sure you will be more appreciated there. Still, you are welcome anytime to visit our state and see for yourself the massive changes that have taken place. New roads, flashy buildings,huge malls,new software parks, industrial layouts, people rushing to work in their new Honda City or Opel Astra yada yada yada....all trappings of a fast booming economy.
Last few years have been particularly good for the Gujarati people. We like our man in charge. Our representative in power. I admire you for your admiration for Mr.Gandhi. But even good ol'Bapu would have no chance against our boy Modi, if he stood against him in a free and fair election.
So sad..nah ? Sign of times etc. etc.
BrownFob wrote
Gujarat usually stayed out of the news till the late 90s. People in the North (Delhi, UP Bihar, Punjab etc) didn't know a whole lot about Gujarat
When I visited India in the late 1990s, my UP relatives handed me pamphlets about rising communalist tentions and the stoking of anti-Muslim feelengs ... in Gujarat. To those who were paying attention, the signs of Modi-ism were there long before the Gujrati Barbeque (grilled Muslim is our specialty!).
Kunjan wrote
Why the hell is [Modi] still in power? Wanna know why? Hint: The problem is in the minds of the people who put him in power
Raj wrote
fact remains that the only ones who matter are those actually vote in an election in Gujarat. ... People like me. ... Last time Modi won by a 2/3rd majority. This time its gonna be unprecedented ... Last few years have been particularly good for the Gujarati people. We like our man in charge
Question, meet answer.
Exactly Ikram, spot on...what to do ? India is a democracy. The power is in the hands of the People. Modi is only in power because of the People. People like me. You know - the majority of the people of Gujarat. Modi is hardly a dictator as he is made out to be. He is merely a humble servant of the people of Gujarat. Infact he is only a puppet in the hands of the people of Gujarat. He does - what we want him to do. He remains in power only as long as we are happy with him.We are Modi's masters. As long as Modi listens to us, and not to his critics , he will remain in power.
So people - you are wasting your time by hating Modi. Hate us. The people of Gujarat. We put Modi in power. And we are really happy with his work.
And you know what - we relish your hatred. We are rather used to it.
I agree with Raj.. It is amusing to see that you have to hate Modi to earn the "liberal", "progressive" tag.. Last week two cops were lynched and burned in a Muslim locality in Bhiwandi , Maharashtra.. I just read there were a series of multiple bomb blasts.. Yeah, yeah it is all because of BJP / RSS and Babri Masjid..
Raj, Actually this is not a "hate Modi hate Gujarat" post at all. If you'll notice, Abhi didn't mention Modi in his post once. He mentioned a specific anti-poverty program where there is clear evidence of discrimination against the minority in the state of Gujarat. So please save your smug comments about "we the people of Gujarat" for the next go-round.
Abhi's family is actively participating in the Gujarat economic boom (NRIs have been a big factor in the real estate boom in many Indian cities, including Delhi, Mumbai, etc.).
The goal is to make sure everyone benefits from growth, not to beat up the state or the people who live in it.
Raj,
You remarks in response from Yo dads post are uncalled for. You misinterpret his heartfelt post. People like me definitely blame the people like yourself for voting Modi and the likes in power. Like Amardeep rightly mentions this is not the forum to discuss Modi as Abhi has clearly refrained from doing so in his original post. FYI the NRIs remitted close to $15 billion or almost 3% of the GDP in 2003 http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FG09Df03.html
Stop hating our Daddy! He is the messiah! And stop persecuting us!
Pinko commies.
Hail Mogambo etc etc
Raj,
I'll agree with you that people do have a knee jerk reaction to Modi, after all, he was the top dog when the riots happened. He is the chief executive and at the end of the day, law and order, (education and universal sufferage) are the basic necessities of a functioning progressive democracy that broke down. On his watch.
I don't think anyone here is shitting on the people of Gujarat. I grew up in Vadodara and visit frequently. I was there six months ago. Question: What are you views on hindu muslim relationships?
Modi has brought order and people are scared shitless of him. His own party, business, the poor, etc. Almost everyone I talk to agrees there is an element of fear that goes beyond being exposed for corruption or what not. He has also focused on development in trying to play catch up after Gujarat fell behind the tech states in the late 90s, early 2000s. Since India IS a democracy, and there is a minority that DID NOT vote for Modi, implying people shouldn't bitch about Modi because the 'people' (a majority, but not everyone) put him there is a bit far fetched. There is always an oppositiion in a democratic republic and I assume the freedom to bitch about them comes with the package.
Another Question: Can you verify how mini-migrations have taken place? Lets just boil this down to empirical stuff. My family owned some land near Tandelja, which was sold with a good price increase, in Vadodara. My dad told me the muslim population there and surrounding neighborhoods has increased. What are your thoughts? Take Modi and the riots out of the equation for a second. Are communities becoming self segregated?
Raj (#21): Obviously when I decide to come back and "give back" my services to India, it will not be to folks like you. I was in Ahmedabad just last December 2005. I saw all the flashy buildings, huge malls (on Satellite Road), new software parks, industrial layouts you are talking about. I also saw people driving Honda "City" cars, and Toyota "Camry". You say "We need nothing from you". You are right. I have nothing for you. I suggest you step down from your high horse, and visit "Ghettos' e.g. Naroda Patia area, Shah Alaam Roza, Juhapura, Bapunagar, Isanpur, all the Muslim area in the old city, or even just a stone throw away from flashy buildings in Gandhinagar. How could one ignore the abject poverty. You may be proud of the subhuman conditions I witnessed. Well I am not. Before "your kind" lecture to me what I can and cannot do, or what I plan to do and not to do,I suggest you calm down and "face the music". Good Ol' Mohandas (if alive) would be probably bleeding to see what has happened to his Gujarat. I am sure situation is no better elsewhere in Gujarat - outside Ahmedabad. Immediately after the Godhra related riots, Abhi wanted to go to India and provide volunteer serivices. One of the place NGO suggested was Naroda Patia - a muslim ghetto area. My relatives back in Ahmedabad suggested (in view of the explosive situation, and the fact that by birth Abhi is a Hindu Brahmin - which you cannot hide - as the last name gives it away)to consider some other venue. He finally volunteered in New Delhi, teaching english to middle school children. I do not know who you are, or your background, but I dare you to go to some of these areas I mentioned in Ahmedabad, and do what Abhi did. And don't tell me everything is rosy and Gujarat does not need help from NRI's like me. Oh wait, I forgot. All you need is our "Dollars". Peace
Spot on Yo Dad!
Raj, you mind renting a Rickshaw through all these areas Yo Dad is talking about? I will pay your fare even. Go venture out of your flashy cocoon once in a while and see reality for yourself.
Raj
I am far from being "secular" in the indian sense of the word (do-nothing socialism, pandering to special interests, a state that interferes in everything but provides few services). But I am still puzzled and trying to figure out what the point of isolating the muslims community is.
Where does it lead? Does Gujrat not require educated workers and citizens? How does it help if 7-8% percent of the
population has to live an isolated and diminshed life?
'Yo Dad'....you sound like an elder person. I apologise if I was rude to you. But it is comments like this that irk me >>
"And don't tell me everything is rosy and Gujarat does not need help from NRI's like me. Oh wait, I forgot. All you need is our "Dollars". "
Gujarat does not need charity. We want $$$ - but not for free. We believe in business, not aid. That is why we are the top state in India. Our economy grows at 12-13%, while the Indian economy grows at 7-8%. We have just 3.5% of India's population, but are responsible for 25% of the country's exports.
NRIs - NRGs to be precise, seek to invest in Gujarat because they get very high returns for their capital. Not out of charity. They are often our partners in the development of Gujarat, many wanting to be absentee partners in many of our start-ups. The financial sector - which is were I work, is particularly booming these days, because of lots of $$$ money from abroad.
And please - shake off this self-important attitude of yours.Unless you have say $5-10 million to spare, you are of no use to anybody here. If indeed you have that sort of money, you will have already been contacted by our folks offering you a business partnership or
something like that. You see - we Gujjus are born entrepreneurs. Its in our blood. We know how to build businesses and make money.
Of course - if your concern is for muslims in the slums, what can I say ? Good for you and may God bless your noble soul. They are not our people. Maybe you should settle down in Naroda Patia and open an urdu school there.
Raj,
I believe Abhi and his family are Gujarati too.
"Yo Dad", as the name implies, is actually Abhi's father.
Therefore, unless you are suicidal and are determined to get yourself rapidly banned from this discussion forum, I suggest you exercise some decorum and respect, and back the hell off. Zara tameez rakhna.
Raj: I have no time for your kind. I am too busy at my office to respond to your rant. Good luck with your "money-making", because that's in your "blood". Your response just indicates how shallow and one-track minded you are. I am sure your God will forgive you, for you do not know how ignorant you are!!
PGW: The muslims would have more than wel-comed Abhi. It was more an issue with so-called High-Caste hindus who would question your motives - the kind which guys like Raj subscribe. I think you guys are totally missing the point of this post. Amardeep and others have tried but you still do not see the "light". That is so unfortunate. Peace.
Al Beruni... we are not isolating them. They are isolating themselves. There is no discrimination as such by us. Skilled, educated secular muslims wanting to join the mainstream wont have much of a problem finding a job here. Gujarat hardly the fascist state it is made out to be. We dont pander to Islamic fundamentalists, thats all.
Our problem is with the lumpen elements in the slums - as 'Yo Dad' pointed out. They are a menace to society. Followers of obscurantist fundamentalist Islam. Always - they light the fire, and get burnt later.
Its not just the muslims in Gujarat , but muslims all over India must understand that there is a limit to the patience of the Indian people. When you burst crackers when Pakistan beats India at cricket, when you provide shelter to Islamic terrorists, when you bomb our school buses..there will be consequences.
Patience of the people of Gujarat snapped when the muslims burnt alive 57 hindu women and children. Who knows when the patience of the people of India will snap ? Just saw on TV that there was a series of bomb blasts on Mumbai local trains. 100 dead, it seems.
Raj, At some point we are all just people. I felt so sadddened by your comments and also so very embarassed for you. I am wondering if you have any particular religious affiliation and if that supports or informs your point of view?
'Yo Dad' , I am happy to know you are busy at work in your office. Good for you.
"I felt so sadddened by your comments and also so very embarassed for you. I am wondering if you have any particular religious affiliation and if that supports or informs your point of view?"
No need to be embarassed. Its not my 'personal' opinion as such. This is how most people of India, not just me or the much dreaded people of Gujarat feel about the muslims in our cuontry. I am surprised that you are ignorant about such sentiments.
I dont know what my relgious affiliations or lack of it have anything to do with hating Islamic fundamentalists and separatists.Its more a matter of survival, which is the guiding principle.
Is that really how "most of the people in India" feel? How did you derive that information? Do you (and "most people of India") have similar feelings about other religions or ethnic groups in your "cuontry"? Or is it just Muslims? What about Bengalis? Or Parsis?
Sorry to seem so "ignorant" - I guess I hang out with a different crowd from you and to be perfectly blunt, no one I know espouses these views that you have widely touted as espoused by "most of the people in India."
Business is never in anyone's 'blood'. Nothing, other than what your parents give you biologically is in your blood, you idiot. Gujarati society has evolved to have many good businessmen because of its strategic location as a prime trading location. Society has evolved to where business has been a strong priority, it is not the other way around
By the way, I know of SEVERAL investments that were courted very heartily that were under your 5-10 million threshold. Again, small-medium business underpins the economy in most capitialist states. Law and order is blind. It needs to be as such and ALL those who violate it should pay the price. Hindu, muslim, christian, atheist, etc. THAT is a civil society. Not one that bends to the notions of what mobs feel is the correct response, disregarding law and order.
By the way, how old are you Raj?
Raj, I'd love to see you say such words to Abhi's father, to his face, without the benefit of Internet-conferred anonymity. Your comments are so uncalled-for and obnoxious, they condemn themselves. Shame on you for being so disrespectful, especially to someone like Yo Dad.
It's always especially amazing to me that so-called Hindus can proclaim Vasudhaiv kutumbakam with one side of their mouth, and then mutter, "Except for Muslims," with the other. If we're going to create self/other dichotomies of hate, how about this one? People (Hindu or Muslim) who revel in creating tension and division between communities, and people who want to try and live together as, you know, human beings.
Raj (#33):
Who are your people, Raj?
well, then they should just be that, "human beings" without any additional tags.. "secular humanism", anyone???
Gujarati society has evolved to have many good businessmen because of its strategic location as a prime trading location.
Do you think there is a cultural component to trading success? Gujaratis have been doing it everywhere -16th century Java, 19th century Africa, 20th century Belgium (one of the seats of the diamond trade), and 20th century United States (the Indian small business story in the US is essentially a Gujarati story). There is certainly a willingness to lend at fair rates to other community members; a commitment to the joint family; a Jain ethos which encourages trade in intangibles, etc.?
Anna, I agree with you. Better yet, he should say those things to Yo Dad in front of ABHI. Yo Dad would probably be too nice to him. Raj, I believe showing respect to uncles/aunties is ALSO part of Gujarati culture?
You're right, our beloved Yo Dad would be kind to him. Abhi's got work to do, I volunteer for the dirty job, chappal at the ready.
Cultural, of course. That's what I meant when I said society has evolved in a certain manner, supported by Gujarat's historic geographical location. It goes hand in hand.
There is NO biological component to it, though. That is simply dumb and ignorant. Nothing is EVER in anyone's blood. We'll probably get into evolutionary psychology after this, but whenever someone comes to me and says "Its in my/their blood" with a serious expression on their face, I already know said person has rationalized the past actions of the group and internalized them as a biological trait, rather than one that was acquired through a culture that assimilated a particular priorty via socio-economics.
In a way though it is good that Raj left comments. A few days ago when I wrote my post about Jingoism in the blogosphere I got the impression that a few people just didn't believe it and couldn't see the need for sometimes having to agressively moderate on these boards. Well here you go, laid out much better than I ever could. Also note how such an individual with a couple of ignorant comments is able to divert through provocation the valuable time of a great many of our reasonable readers and commenters who come here to learn and discuss issues.
Raj, like my dad said, I hope you are able to rise out of your ignorance.
I read the thread and debated leaving a long-winded post expressing my outrage that anyone would step to "Our" Dad with anything but respect and kindness.
But my respect for Yo Dad reminds me that he doesn't need my help; he's a man of intelligence, compassion and joy. And I pity the fool who dares show him anything less than he gives to the world.
Anna: What is your problem? Why are you calling Raj's comments uncalled for and obnoxious? Just because he is having an argument with "abhi's dad"? So are we all supposed to be "nice" to all sm bloggers relatives.......I thought we are supposed to post our genuine comments here ! And what Raj was posting is "the" voice of majority of India. So wake up and hear that!
YODAD:
The muslims would have more than wel-comed Abhi.
I think you have lived in america for too long!!! If you were so confident of your above statement....why did'nt you try it out?
Well, it's mostly a figure of speech. And you have to remember that certain communities have been in business for centuries upon centuries. Kids inhale it with their mother's milk and right on through. But I've noticed that people in the U.S. are too uncomfortable to even acknowledge that culture could be a factor in success/failure. To me it seems obvious just based on my observation of Indian society. I'm really curious to learn if 4th generation Indian Americans will be disproportionately good in spelling bees and math etc. or will this "cultural" trait completely dissolve after a couple of generations of being American.
There is often an element of truth to sterotypes and to me this happens to be a matter of great interest. I think a refusal to acknowledge group traits can be equally unjust.
Anamika:
The fact is, no one person can claim to be the 'voice' of India, especially when India includes the second-third largest muslim population in the world. It may be a prevelant thought among those Hindus that see muslims as a part of India's problem, but your/raj's viewpoint does not take into consideration of other's viewpoint. Selling it as a consensus of India shows that you don't even see muslims as Indians.
Sorry to say, and I've argued this with many other Gujus and my own relatives, that there are far more complex issues at play and too many variables to categorize all muslims as a certain type. There are vocal minorities that hold extremeist views who via strong psychological operations have the ability to get the response (such as yours and Raj's) to further their own cause by isolating moderate muslims and forcing them to make a choice by playing to their insecurities.
How does it feel to be a victim of the Jihadist psycological operations? YOU are playing right into THEIR hands when solipsistic arguments such as yours are evoked from their propoganda.
Law and order, the fundamentals of a civil society, need to be applied to all. Taking action into one's hands because of an outrageous incidient by ignoring civil code is unruly and eventually far more harmful to the structure (note, not only Hindu, but Indian) of society. Anna, me, or whoever, WILL condemn your thoughts and visions. Regardless of religion (Hindu, Muslim, Christian), the human rationalizations are exaclty the same as jihadis.
hincalif,
that's a nice post.. if it stays around for a while..
#55
Just because YOU say most Indian believe that does not make it true. Do you have any support for your assertions?
Wow. I guess that works sort of like locker room jokes about homophobia. What a thrill for you to be part of THAT crowd!
Raj wrote
if your concern is for muslims in the slums, what can I say ? .... They are not our people
And Hindutvadi in California wrote -- well, I don't know, because it was deleted.
I think SM does no-one a service when non-abusive Muslim-hating comments are deleted. Modi was re-elected. The Pakistan ya Kabristan viewpoint obviously has Hindu support. A head-in-the-sand attitude is partly what led to the Gujurati BBQ. Leave the civil pro-hate comments up and let them be rebutted.
The Pakistan ya Kabristan viewpoint obviously has Hindu support
That's a typo -- should be some support. Abhi and his dad show the other side.
They weren't deleted because of their content but because of the poster. That poster has abused our boards way too many times and was therefore banned (and his opinions with him).
I was probably banned because I insisted on my comments regarding South Asian vs Indian stance in this blog and probably comenting on SAJA leanings.
If the administrator can let me know the exact abuse I had committed, I can rebut it. Hell I was given no warning.
I just came here this time, because of a cross link for another post.
Clueless commenters, right now.
Beyond his unbelievable arrogance and his deluded words, yes, that was definitely part of the reason. It should be beyond obvious on a BROWN blog that respect for our parents/elders is a value that the rest of us share, especially when it comes to someone as universally adored as Yo Dad. This has nothing to do with the fact that he gave us Abhi; if he were any random Uncle I would castigate no differently. It's a shame you don't agree; I only hope you are kinder to people (elder or otherwise) in public than you are when cravenly posting to blog threads.
No, most obtuse one: I am saying try and be nice to everyone.
Feel free as long as they don't SUCK/violate CLEARLY-STATED policies.
I sincerely doubt that he is the voice of anyone or thing but himself, a truth which may be applied to ALL of us. I'm awake AND I'm listening; the same cannot be said of you.
Yo Dad and abhi, I think it was a good idea not to let abhi stay in naroda patia. When I was in my second year of college, there was a minor riot confined to a small area. I was unfortunately at my friends place and their entire family was suddenly terribly nervous since they were sure sooner or later there would be a group of people outside demaning to hand me over to them. And this was way before the 2002 riots and it was a minor one too. So I think when you say that muslims would have welcomed that, you were totally wrong. They would not welcome him because they would fear that in case some riot flared up, they would not be able to protect him. And it is their own protection too, trying to hide a hindu during riots makes you a target. I was that hindu at my friends place that evening so I know.
BTW the person who said the Gujarat was not in news for such things until the 1990s they too are wrong. Ahmedabad has one of the longest history of communal riots in india. No, I do not mean an emperor killing people in name of religion. Actual communal riots similar to one after godhra incident. In fact, one of the most infamous riot was in 1969 when 560 people died. In fact even in that case the government machinery did not exactly do their job. Sorry for the history lesson, but sometimes we might have to go look at the history if we want to understand why. May be the same history will provide answers too. Also, the modi goverments encouragment worked because the local newspapers abetted it. And we all know what happens when the media and government connive to influence people. We have good examples in US in not so recent past. And not too long ago we all know how in delhi hundereds of sikhs were killed and our so beloved ex-president had this to say "jab koi bada ped girta hai, to dharti hilti hai" may be not the exact same words but pretty close.
Another point for Raj (post #21): Gujarat is NOT the richest state, with the best standard of living, least poverty, etc. That would be Punjab.
Much before you all ganged up and started beating up on the very uncouth Raj;
It should be beyond obvious on a BROWN blog that respect for our parents/elders is a value that the rest of us share
Shame on you for being so disrespectful, especially to someone like Yo Dad.
chappal at the ready
he actually said this ( which you all very characteristically ignored ):
Yo Dad'....you sound like an elder person. I apologise if I was rude to you
Did you pause to ponder that Raj might be the ony human on this planet not privy to the universal adorability of Yo Dad'? That he might not have had the good fortune of meeting him in person? As gentelmanly and well meaning as Yo Dad comes across to me , I don't think age or gender should spare one from sparring on a blog. Next time you might scold me for not going soft on the weakest link on this blog just because she is a woman.
Maybe you all should dissect Raj's comment and try to appreciate his anger. You are after all quite adept at tracing the root cause of aberrant human behavior:
Last year, severe riots and disturbances in the squalid working-class suburbs of Paris and other cities reminded France and the world that the daily lives of people of color in France are fraught with obstacles and discrimination; not that the complacent political class and intellectual elite seem much interested in doing anything about it
Let me offer a hint :
Heard about the Bombay bomb blasts? Almost a thousand years of such on and off terror directed invariably at members of one community from members of a particular community. Incidents of real Hindu and Jewish terrorism can in contrast be counted on one's fingers and are almost always a reaction than an initiation.
We consummately agree. However, age should spare one from the sputtering ire of trolls. There is a difference between immature provocation and "sparring", which is healthy, respectful and not unpleasant.
To quote American Pie, "Say my NAME, bitch". The fact that you didn't means your handle ("pussy in the well") was apposite. Too bad you felt the need to go there, because buried in your tirade were a few almost-good points.
With regards to Raj's apology which you cite so gleefully, as if you deserve a cookie or something, he negated any worth in those words with the shittiness which followed. Re-read. That's a non-apology if ever there were one.
Finally, consider the fact that Raj has left controversial and troll-worthy comments on other threads, too. We weren't "ganging up" on him because we're having a bad day. We were stepping in because this is OUR party, in OUR house and if someone threatens or berates our cherished guests, we would be terrible hosts if we didn't intervene.
Dude, it wan't only about insulting Yo Dad. His comments were across the board ignorant and his offline email to me proved that he was completely without class (and made his exile all the more satisfying). If people are angry they should deal with their anger in their own home and not spew ignorant garbage on our website.
And what in the HELL does this have to do with my post, pussy?
And what in the HELL does this have to do with my post?
Indeed, the Jingoism thread is here.
A slight whiff of excessive political correctness in the treatment of Raj. It would actually have been more helpful if he were to explain to us about the reasons for his viewpoint.
Another factual error is the claim that Ahmedabad has had little communal violence before 2002. This is hilarious nonsense. There were massive riots in the 60s and it is my belief that tension between various religous factions goes back several 100 years. The ancient hindu temple of Somnath is, of course, located in Gujarat. Let us all tell the truth about the past while trying to construct an equitable and decent present.
Where did you see this claim? After a long day my eyes are hurting so maybe you could point it out to me. Thanks.
Al Beruni, Raj said this:
"Unless you have say $5-10 million to spare, you are of no use to anybody here. "
Why ask for further explanations from someone who talks like that? It seems like that kind of attitude speaks for itself.
Indeed, why continue talking at all to someone like that?
Ofcourse. When we moved to Vadodara Gujarat in 1987 (I was in second yr of high scool) we would routinely get a school day of due to "riots in the city". This was very new to me and somewhat amazing as we had moved from Gandhinagar, Gujarat which is a kind of an oasis of a town where there is no such activity (until Akshardham terrorist action).
So Gujudude,
You do agree that majority people subscribe to that view, right??
I wonder how come there were no muslim family in the housing society that we lived and my parents continue to live. Infact all the housing society in the area doesnt have any muslim families. This was in 1987 Something to think about.
Its easy to be "progressive" sitting in the comfort of west with so many options in life and safety-net and secure life. Which a person in India, the target of most terrorist attacks in the world, cant imagine.
OOps. We move to Vadodara in 1986 not 1987.
Also please dont regard my comment as anti-muslim or anti-Gujarati. All I am saying is that because of somewhat of wishful thinking we shouldnt ignore the realities on the ground.
I wonder how come there were no muslim family in the housing society that we lived and my parents continue to live. Infact all the housing society in the area doesnt have any muslim families. This was in 1987 Something to think about.
Yes, and No. I do not know about Gujarat. But in a place like Delhi or Roorkee, for middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods they are mixed and dictacted by wealth and influence (as in Amreeka).
Sure, there is a lot of ghettoization in North India (Delhi, UP, and UA). I am not going to deny the deep distrust between two community either in India. I agree housing communities self select themselves, that happens.
Last month, I was in India. One of my first cousin's stepson (or son through adaption) who is from Delhi but studies in Mumbai has a real pretty Muslim girlfriend. We chatted about it: their openness, etc. To maintain my confidence he bestowed to me, I will not post any of our discussion.
I just wanted added to Yo Dad's bhai-bhai meme, sometimes it is more than that.
Also, remember, right now around 5 players in Indian cricket team that are Muslims from rather middle-class background (I mean not Nawab of Patuadis or lone players in past). Now, our North American readers will ask what does this mean: It means what it meant when African American players started playing in major leagues (rather segregated leagues) and the effect it had on American psyche.
I guess no matter where you live, there are 2 kinds of people: those who have exclusionary motivation and seek to stir up shit and exert that they are better than others, and those with inclusionary motivation who try to see the commonality between all people.
which would you like to be today?
Not really. There were others in my family backing me up, too :) Plus, after a few rants they'd see my points and relent. People say different things in a group and as individuals. I've seen this phenomenon with muslims as well as hindus (something from my experience, may not be universal or whatever). Lots of huff and bravado in front of your 'community', but most just slink back and sheepishly admit politicians do a lot to poke and prod the public, and most folks just want to get on with their lives. The firecracker stuff after Pakistani victories was always a bit annoying, but if every muslim was celebrating that, it would be as loud as diwali :) A muslim friend of mine was a India cricket fanatic. So were most in his family etc. More often than not, it was stupid kids firing those crackers off just to piss people off and get attention.
There is an underlying level of insecurity that exists and people stay in their lanes. However, those that venture out and actually rationalize to attack another are NOT "all muslims", and implicitly many Gujus or Indians understand this when asked. How the Indian Government has handled this has a lot to do with these insecurities. Not apprehending those who committed the crimes quickly, the justice system dragging its feet, not going after the leaders/mobsters and bringing them to the forefront, etc. When the public servants make a mockery of the civil system, other more unsavory elements of society will move in and take the lead, even if most don't really believe in their cause.
I also agree with what you say is easy to do in front of a computer and yap. But I've lived through curfew's in Vadodara, too. I was in Hyderabad when Advani came with his Rath Yatra and there was a curfew. We were nervous getting to the securndrabad train station, however the folks around us (muslims included) were as nervous. No one wanted violence. Folks just crossed their fingers hoping the douchebags that go around raging wouldn't show up, or the police (double cross your fingers) would actually do something about if they did show up. Nothing happened. We ate biryani from some nice muslim dude selling it, and took the train back home.
Indians are the targets of the most terrorist incidents in the world. But those also include, correct me if I'm wrong, leftist attacks, seperatist attacks in the eastern states, and inter-caste attacks. Islamist/jihadist/Hindutva types are all different sides of the same coin to me furthering their own communal propoganda, piggybacking on every minor/major incident throwing flames on the fire.
If evidence was needed of the fascist 'progressive' fascism of the fascists of PseudoSecular Mutiny this thread provides it all.
The gang rape and lynch mob of hero of the Assertive Gujarati Hindu Nation Raj was gangraped by anti national traitors without democracy or freedom of speech.
I am so angry, I am going to lie down and fantasise about rubbing oil into the naked thighs of our leader who has saved Gujarat, Shri Modi Sahib - he makes me go weak at the knees, he is so wondeful, everyone is frightened of him and we are so strong now and powerful and Modi squeezes our balls so they grow at 12-13% a year so you can shove our saffron balls in your mouth and slurp them. Or maybe you are too busy making friends with muslims and other animals. Why don't you just engage in bestiality? You may as well. And one day the messiah Shri Modi he shall send a thunderbolt to destroy you stinky muslim loving traitors to hell.
And we are the best in business too.
Hail Mogambo!
Modi squeezes our balls so they grow at 12-13% a year so you can shove our saffron balls in your mouth and slurp them. Or maybe you are too busy making friends with muslims and other animals. Why don't you just engage in bestiality? You may as well. And one day the messiah Shri Modi he shall send a thunderbolt to destroy you stinky muslim loving traitors to hell.
Yuck. This is not even funny. What a disgusting moron.
Risible Invisible,
If you have all but one one joke, you need to cross the line to make it funny. I agree, now he is just plain crude.
SpoorLam was funny the first couple of times and should have quit a long time back.
Something to think about.
I think Spoorlam is pure genius. His hilarity knows no bounds!
SpoorLam --
Thanks for the link to Shri Modi Sahib's home page -- but you forgot to mention how intellectual and scholarly he is. Your devotion appears to be slipping.
People wouldn't be able to handle it. I'm sure hate crimes etc. would spike, but then again, I also have a certain level of confidence in civic society here.
But, in a way, your argument somewhat supports that people ARE more tolerant in India. What I've been saying all along. Everyone doesn't feel hindutva (Else BJP would have had more staying power). Despite popular sterotypes and what not, life seems to move on. Maybe its because life isn't valued as much or people are desensitized to such activities.
In any case, if the above scenario was to happen, there would have been GRAND failures of intelligence/law enforcement on every level, again. Additionally, I think it also has to do with the frequency of attacks India sustatins. Isn't 9-11 the largest terrorist mass murder on record (i don't know, but it sure seems like it). The backlash wasn't as dramatic as initially feared with all brown folks rounded up into camps and whatnot.
I think smaller, yet more frequent attacks have more propoganda value (they all do) for terrorists in trying to skew public opinion rather than more dramatic, yet ones that occur over a longer timeframe. Many attacks have been avoided.
I have hope in this system and fellow Americans. Good God, if there is one place it has to be here.
Hail
MogamboSpoorLam!Are you a muslim?
Abrahamic?
Commie pinko gay?
All of the above?
Why are you frightened of Gujarat's virility?
Answer me!
Don't persecute me or I will be angry. I have not been so angry since my niece in Virginia married a negro. She is dead to us now, but no matter, I always thought there was something wrong with her since caught her reading a subversive Jhumpa Lahiri book (she is married to a Latino Abrahamic did you know?)
But I found a website with pictures of Indian missiles . Ever since my wife starting having an affair with the Punjabi gynaecologist from Oakland, it gives me some comfort. That, and the thought of the confident Hindu Nation asserting itself and renewing itself with confidence, and Shri Modi Sahib rescuing us from evil people like Yo Dad and 'progressives' who engage in bestiality and friendship with Bangladeshis, I feel powerful now.
Hail Mogambo!
I would never dispute that. But I think we shouldnt call forgetting this type of violence "tolerence". I think its more of fatalism, than anything else. Poor people believe more in fate and are willing to "accept" whatever shit they get. IMO as the middle class becomes richer their 'fatalism' will reduce.
I'm sorry I didn't do this earlier, but I'd like to express my admiration for Yo Dad's comments in #29. It was inspiring and incredibly refreshing to read those words. Thank you.
Taking SpoorLam rants a little more seriously than perhas he deserves :-), people might find the Sudhir Kakar's THE COLOURS OF VIOLENCE: Cultural Identities, Religion and Conflict of interest. Here was a quote I found quite helpful:
Al beruni,
Your quote isn't at all helpful. It is merely propoganda. "Look at how the Muslims talk and then look at how the Hindus talk," is all you are saying and your quote is just one random example.
If you meant this simply to illustrate that Spoor Lam's commenent are rooted in reality then I apologize.
We are being a bit cautious right now.
SM Intern,
are you going to ban "Al beruni" too??.. He/She was just reproducing the speeches of the so called Hindu/Muslim rightwingers..
This atittude of "Bash away the Hindu extremist .. but dont say a word about Muslim extremists" is insulting to the vast majority of the normal and regular muslims. It essentially says that its Ok or expected for muslims to be extremists, but Hindus need to have "higher" standard and not be extremists. So its an insult to the majority of muslims.
Having said that, its just my opinion. Doesnt mean a damn thing. In a week everyone will forget everything about this terrorist attack and even if they remember they will remember how "reselient" Mumbaikars" are. The reality is that they dont have option other than be "reselient". People need food to survive daily life too.
Adding to my earlier post I don't understand your censor policies.. You are entitled to propagate your own opinions.. Ofcourse this is your blog.. And this is what I see in the mainstream media in India. But I don't know if that policy helps..
What I see happening is that people with such views are pushed out as "Hindutva fanatics"/"fascists" etc.. etc.. and there was no space given to those folks.. Is it helpful?? or is it like the "back draft" situation referred above.. I seriously don't know..
Shri RC and Shri Poontang Selvan
The hypocrisy and PERSECUTION will never stop!
Indeed Shri Poontang your analogy is perfect.
The backdraft is brewing in the bowel of the Hindu Nation and it shall soon combust and blow out of our anus with devastating consequences for all our oppressors and persecuters - a gigantic fart of devastating effects against our oppressors who shall be destroyed by the backdraft of our saffron farts which have been held in for too long in order to be polite and 'civilized'.
We need to relax our sphincters and prove that we have been oppressed and let rip to demonstrate this combustion is not to be squeezed inside too much longer. It cannot go on. This backdraft will explode and humidify the hypocrisy of the hypocrite 'progressive' fascists.
No more excuses or placing a cork in our asshole.
We need to let them smell our backdraft.
Nuking Mecca will be small fry when we flatten the sullas with our gas.
And only one group of people will be to blame.
PseudoSecular Mutiny and their leftist cabal allies, in particular Yo Dad, and Wendy Doniger.
Hail Mogambo!
SM Intern
Whoa, wait a minute here ! One of the biggest issues here is that of language and idioms that are being used by various "extreme voices". This is the focus of Sudhir Kakar's work. We DO need to engage with this and each of us come to understand our and other communi