Breaking News in Bombay via AP:
Seven explosions rocked Bombay’s commuter rail network during Tuesday evening’s rush hour. The blasts ripped apart train compartments and reportedly killed dozens, police and Indian media said.
Though the chaos makes it difficult to ascertain exact numbers, how many have been injured, Indiant tv reports said that “the death toll could be in the dozens.”
40 80 100 105 137 163 172 200 people have died and 300 464 700 are injured. I’m sure that before I can even update this post, one of you will comment with the latest numbers; I sincerely hope that they are not high. I know, I’m excessively idealistic, but whenever I hear “Breaking News”, “Bombs” or “Trains” or similar, I screw my eyes shut and pray for miracles.
Television images showed injured victims sprawled on train tracks, frantically dialing their cell phones. Some of the injured were being carried away from the crash site. The force of the blasts ripped doors and windows off carriages, and luggage and debris were strewn about.
Pranay Prabhakar, the spokesman for the Western Railway, confirmed that seven blasts had taken place. He said all trains had been suspended, and he appealed to the public to stay away from the city’s train stations.
Bombay, India’s financial center, and New Delhi, the capital, were reportedly on high alert. Bombay’s commuter rail network is among the most crowded in the world.
Developing… :(
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UPDATE # 1
Though CNN is reporting that no group has claimed responsibility, the NYT has updated the article I originally cited with the following:
The blasts appeared to have come in quick succession — a common tactic employed by Kashmiri militants that have repeatedly targeted India’s cities.
The first explosion hit the train at a railway station in the northwestern suburb of Khar, said a police officer who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.
India’s CNN-IBN television news, which had a reporter traveling on the train, said the blast took place in a first-class car as the train was moving, ripping through the compartment and killing more than a dozen people.
…All of India’s major cities were reportedly on high alert following the attacks, which came hours after a series of grenade attacks by Islamic extremists killed eight people in the main city of India’s part of Kashmir.
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UPDATE # 2
MANISH IS OKAY.
The image you see above is from Ultrabrown; his post on this horrific terrorist attack is here.……………………..
UPDATE # 3
CNBC’s reporter phones in to update the death toll: 100.
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UPDATE # 4
The Mumbai Help blog has resources, updates and a very important reminder that blood donors are needed desperately.
If you’re not shaken to your very core by this tragedy yet, perhaps this simple quote from that site will affect you as much as it has unexpectedly moved me (every other person on my team at work is a PWCer):
I’m so sorry
harshad borgaonkar from price waterhouscooper. His i-card was found amongst the debries [link]
My prayers are with all who were lost, those who are injured, those who are fighting to literally pick up the pieces and help, those who cannot reach family and friends and everyone else who is affected by this craven, calculated attack.
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UPDATE # 5
Bloomberg.com provides new and updated totals:
India’s commercial hub, was rocked by seven explosions on trains and in commuter stations yesterday, killing at least 163 people and injuring 464 in the nation’s worst terrorist attack in 13 years. [link]
There is now a wiki for the event and instead of lashing out scornfully against India’s neighbor, please note that it was created by a Pakistani-American in California named Sabahat Ashraf (via ASATA’s mailing list). SAJA says he “helped lead similar resource (sic) during 2005 Kashmir earthquake”.
SAJA’s contribution to blast-related resources—which includes a link to SM Alum Manish Vij’s Ultrabrown— is here.
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UPDATE # 6
Via Reuters, the grim reality of the wounded city, where predictably, they are running low on hospital beds as well as blood:
“Most of the patients have received burn injuries and are suffering from severe trauma,” M.E Yeolekar, head of Sion Hospital, told Reuters.
“In my entire career as a physician, this is the second destruction I have seen of this magnitude,” he said, referring to bomb blasts in the western city in 1993 which killed 250 and wounded around 1,000 people.
On whom we are praying for:
Hundreds of relatives frantically pored over a list of dead and injured outside the hospital, a scene repeated at many other hospitals, packed with people searching for friends and relatives.
Some of the people who entered a makeshift morgue were unable to identify badly mutilated bodies.
Considering some of the uglier talk on this thread and elsewhere, it’s important to remember that Muslims died, too:
“I spoke to him 10 minutes before he died,” said Haji Mastan, sobbing uncontrollably over the death of his cousin Mukti Mahmood Darvesh, who was travelling on one of the suburban trains.
“Why did it have to end like this? He was young and he has children.”
It’s always darkest before the dawn:
In another hospital, staff constantly mopped up blood from the floor as patients were being wheeled in by the minute.
“We collected scattered limbs with our own hands and put them in bundles and sent them to hospital,” said Santosh Patil, a railway labourer, as he stretchered in a mangled body.
First person account of an attack designed for maximum carnage:
“It was a deafening sound and before anybody could realise anything the roof of the train was ripped apart,” said Mukund Thakur, who was travelling to the northern suburb of Andheri.
“People were thrown outside. I saw limbs strewn around me.”
During our lowest moments, all we have is each other:
Local people distributed food and water among hundreds of people who waited for news from their near and dear ones.
“We are trying to persuade them to have something,” Gurpreet Singh Bangar told Reuters.
“In this moment of distress and tragedy, people don’t care for food,” he said. “But everybody has to live.”
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UPDATE # 7
More from the Beeb. Some commuters never had a chance:
An eyewitness at Mahim told the BBC some of those who had jumped from the train were run over by another train coming in the opposite direction.
Others were lost in the stampede which was inevitable, considering all the panic.
What price, for a life? Nothing can truly compensate for such a staggering loss, but…
The Indian railway minister, Laloo Prasad Yadav, has announced financial help for the victims and their relatives. He said relatives of those killed will get 500,000 rupees ($11,000) each.
He has promised jobs for the victims’ relatives and said the railways would also bear treatment costs for the injured.
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UPDATE # 8
I know, it’s ten hours old, but this quote from the web chat WaPo hosted with Suketu Mehta, the author of Maximum City, almost makes me smile:
Washington, D.C.: As a former Bombay resident, I was pleasantly pleased at the way the city reacted to the bomb blast last time around. I hope the same sense will prevail this time as well — nothing defeats the terrorists more than gettting back to normal within hours of such an incident.
Every resident of the city — former or current — walks wounded today.
Suketu Mehta: Bombay is not going to be beaten down by these blasts. In 1993, the blasts killed 257 people; one of the buildings bombed was the Stock Exchange. The plotters were hoping to cripple the financial nerve center of the city. When the Stock Exchange reopened two days later, using the old manual trading system because the computers had been destroyed, it actually gained ten percent in the next two days. Just to show them.
Show ‘em again.
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UPDATE # 9
Mutineer Neha reminds me to check and then change the “tolls”. At this point, 900 people are either dead or injured (200/700). Have mercy.
The number of dead in the eight near-simultaneous bombings during Tuesday evening’s rush hour in India’s financial hub has risen steadily as rescue efforts uncovered more bodies and people have succumbed to their injuries.[link]
Meanwhile, the city kept on keepin’ on and Suketu Mehta (see Update # 8) was right. As one tipster wrote about the Sensex in our News tab, “Can’t touch this”:
Following the serial bomb blasts in Mumbai yesterday, the Sensex opened marginally (nine points) lower at 10,605…Early nervousness saw the index slip to a low of 10,550. However, buying emerged at these levels and the index rebounded into the positive zone.
Unabated buying in technology and select index heavyweights saw the index surge to higher levels in the latter half of the day. The index touched a high of 10,939 - up 389 points from the day’s low. The Sensex finally ended with a gain of 3% (316 points) at 10,930.[link]
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UPDATE # 10
More, from the Guardian/AP. While people once again board trains and the city limps back to its routine, hell isn’t over for far too many Mumbaikars:
Authorities say they do not know how many missing people there are. But Indian television stations are broadcasting pictures of dozens of missing in the hopes of helping relatives locate them.
You know how everyone knows or is related to someone in NYC? Same with Bombay:
“I’ve been searching for hours. I don’t know where else to go,” he sighed.
His colleague’s family lives in the southern city of Bangalore. “His wife called me up and said she hadn’t heard from him and we’ve been searching ever since.”
Because so many hospitals are treating victims, the search is difficult, Ahir says. Making matters worse, many with lesser wounds have been sent to the city’s many small clinics because the hospitals are overflowing.
“What do I tell her when she calls again?” he asked.
I hadn’t even thought of this heartbreaking reality:
There are also victims without families.
At a suburban hospital, a small boy lies unconscious, an oxygen mask strapped to his face. No one knows who he is.
“We searched him for identification, any photographs, but there is nothing,” said volunteer Shilpa Basin. “What if he was traveling with someone and they are injured as well?”
How many children are orphans now? If he wakes up, will this little boy even know where he’s from, what his parents’ names are, who he is? Heartbreaking.
This reminds me of Lower Manhattan, after September 11:
Gandhi, a college student, said her family had spread out to various city hospitals. “We’re taking his picture and showing it to anyone - to injured people, even to relatives of victims. Maybe someone will remember seeing him and we will find him,” she said.
Another horrifying problem: how do you identify someone after something like this…
Gautam Chavan, is fearing the worst.
“I saw how the coach had exploded, if that is the state of a rail coach, what chance do people inside have?”
Scenes of badly wounded people being brought to the hospitals upset him.
“What if we can’t recognize him? What if he’s not recognizable? When will we know?” he cried.
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UPDATE # 11
Via The Hindu: Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri makes tactless remarks, which rightfully get condemned by India (and me).
External Affairs Ministry Spokesman Navtej Sarna said “no cause” could justify killing of innocent people…we find it appalling that Foreign Minister Kasuri should seek to link the blatant and inhuman act of terrorism against innocent men, women and children to so called lack of resolution of disputes between India and Pakistan”.
What did the Foreign Minister say exactly? Oh, just this:
Kasuri has said the “best way” of dealing with extremism in South Asia is to tackle “real issue” of Jammu and Kashmir.
Right, because that justifies the slaughter of innocents.
Noting that not much progress has been made on Kashmir problem, (Kasuri) said “incremental approach is good but now we must tackle real issues. And this is the best way of tackling extremism in South Asia”.
Of course it is. Kill first, talk later.




Just heard about this. Tried calling home, but it seems that all the lines are jammed.
I think the numbers around 60 right now. http://www.ndtv.com/breakingnews/default.asp?refno=711200674044PM.
for those of you who have loved ones in Mumbai, too, my prayers are with you that everyone is ok.
Email's working. My folks just emailed me to say they're ok. Fucking terrorists.
Try text messaging your friends and family back home. May go through despite phone lines being jammed. Scary...scary..I have got family living near those areas.
Screen caps and local updates of the carnage.
Thanks for the updates Anna. I had no idea.
Yep. Phone lines are jammed, but email is OK. Just got several from my family...
http://mumbaihelp.blogspot.com/ for updates. Condolences to the victims and their families. Here is hoping that this does not lead to further bloodshed. As a Bombayite i grieve for my city but am sure the Bombayite spirit will surmount this tragedy.
Those with family and friends in Mumbai can use the following numbers to get information about their well-being:
MUMBAI HELPLINE: (022) 22005388
COOPER HOSP: 26207254, 26207256
HINDUJA HOSP: 24451515, 24452222
(from NDTV.com)
The first thing that came to my mind is 1993 blasts. It is sad to see so many people loose their lives in a such a manner. I hope everyone's families and loved ones are doing fine.
The latest report below mentions that as many as 100 people may be dead.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/11/D8IPS0T00.html
Masale.Wallah, how exactly do those numbers you provided work? Will they provide info on the victims or call folks at home for people who cant reach them due to jammed phone lines?
My mom was in one of the following trains and she got down near Borivali. She could see the carnage from outside. The phone lines are jammed. Very difficult to get in touch with people. Thats the exact time and route, I used to take when I was in Bombay and a lot of my friends still do the daily commute. Trying to get in touch with them
Why is it so hard to get information on TV? CNN was showing images from Mumbai and talking about Saudi text books! And then Daryn whatever-her-name-is said "let's get the latest from Italy." Seriously. Everything they're getting is attributed to AP.
A CNN IBN reporter said 100 dead but 300+ wounded.
In this moment - pray for everyone's health and well being. For the people who have lost loved ones: I offer two statements from our Mahatma: Hate the sin, love the sinner. [For,] the weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
I hope that the death toll does not rise further.
MSNBC's coverage is quite comprehensive. They're virtually feeding CNBC-India's live-feed for the last 2 hours.
You can also view the live-feed of CNN_IBN at www.ibnlive.com
I have tried getting in contact with relatives using both a Reliance calling card and the old fashioned dialing method - but no luck. I've e-mailed a cousin, currently visiting New Delhi, and hope to hear some good news. MSNBC's website does seem to be the strongest of the news websites right now.
Try SMS..they're working fine.
My dad got through to a mobile.
Keep hitting redial, if email isn't an option.
CNN IBN is calling it Mumbai 7/11...
Terrible, I know, but it sort of made me giggle.
Tamasha,
It is appalling how you make light of the situation, neither 9/11 or 7/11 as you put it are giggle inducing. People have lost their lives and the least you can do is show some respect.
Those trains are mad crowded too. this could get bad....i'e got some frineds that live around there. scary...
Try SMS to reach your loved ones. That will work better.
Also Mumbai Help Blog is up and running, leave your contact info there, and one of them will try to reach your family/friends.
Usually, Mumbai's suburbs don't get much attention, and it's just sad to see the names of suburbs around which I grew up flashed on American news in such a context. Borivili, Jogeshwari, Santacruz etc.
let's try to hold off the sanctimonious sniping for, oh, maybe half a day at least? stay focused, people.
i quote from the AP article: "The blasts appeared to have come in quick succession a common tactic employed by Kashmiri militants that have repeatedly targeted Indias cities."
I noticed they were called "militants", not "terrorists". Does anybody think this is because the bombings happend in india, not the usa/western europe/israel/whatever? Or am i reading to much into their choice of words?
My prayers to all those who went through this ordeal, Those poor folks...
I'm sure somewhere out there the people responsible for this are watching tv, smiling, hugging co-conspirators and e-mailing messages of congratulations to each other and receiving them from their supervisors.
Whatever their cause is, they believe innocent civilians are a worthy target.
Whether they are religious zealots committed to bringing out communal tensions or Terrorists who favor the 'Kashmir Liberation', I hope the strength of India's intelligence goes after them with the same fervour as they went after 'D' company gangsters.
And once they are proven guilty, EXTERMINATE them and any other would be martyr's to the 'cause'.
Just spoke to my Mom. Redialling continuously works. SHE WAS IN THE TRAIN IN WHICH THE BLAST HAPPENED AT BORIVALI!!! She was at the other end. She heard a loud noise, The train stopped, could not figure out what happened. Got out of the train. The cops were everywhere and were ushering people out of the station. She got a lift back home.
PardonMyEnglish said:
You are reading too much. AP/Reuters/AFP/BBC routinely call terrorists militants/gunmen/insurgents/etc whether it is Thailand, India, Israel, US, Spain, etc. Even Osama has been labelled a "militant" (at least once). Welcome to the nightmare that is the MSM.
I just got through to Bombay-based relatives - no one in her family was hurt, but one realtive cannot get home, since all train service has stopped. Her husband was killed in the blasts of 1993, so she has avoided additional heartbreak, for now.
May be its too early to speculate the motivation behind these attacks but heres my 2 paisas. All the places (stations) where the blasts occured are known to be residential and commercial areas where medium to big businesses and rich people reside. Furthermore, the bombs were place in the first class compartments and not the 2nd class. Does this mean that this is a deliberate attack on the Mumbai 'classes' and not on the Mumbai 'masses'. Sorry if this comes off as an insensitive comment, but I grew up in northern Mumbai suburbs and this thought just occured to me.
msnbc and bloomberg are reporting that the indian government has named dawood ibrahim as a possible suspect in these blasts.
i pray for all the victims and their families. the images are stomach churning. the scenes and stories of people helping one another show the spirit of the city in the face of such an outrage.
I'm even praying for those responsible, since they are certainly going to HELL. What a vicious act.
Mumbaikar, glad your mom is okay. prayers for the families.
Hope the toll doesnt rise anymore as it is upto 135 died now.
Amit,
I think that's probably because its easier to get a bomb onto a 1st class coach than a 2nd class one. Getting anything onto a Mumbai 2nd class coach, especially during rush hour is practically impossible.
Thanks, Jeet. The post has been amended accordingly.
Same updated number included here.
This is disgusting. Are we going to see the muslim community come out in force against this like they did
with some books and movies they find objectionable? I'm guessing not. I'm begining to this Islam is a religion
with a violent streak enabled by the vast majority of its adherents. Maybe breeding them out of Kasmir is the solution.
Vikram, I ache for you and everyone else who is affected by this and I am outraged as well, but if we let this incident fuel THAT kind of hatred within, then that cliche about the terrorists winning will be true. :(
My thoughts are with everyone with family members and loved ones in Mumbai right now.
I can't help but also hope that this tragedy is not compounded by communal violence. We've seen it all too often in the aftermath of these types of terrorist attacks in India. If militants are responsible, a religious war is probably what they want. Peace.
One thing I noticed. When terrible things like this happen outside of the US, the victim count tends to rise steadily as they find more. It's that funny little thing called, accuratae reporting
But on 9/11, at least the news reports I saw, first estimates were much much higher, at 20,00, then 10,000, then on the dave letterman show which aired 6 days after 9/11, letterman says "we've lost 5000 fellow new yorkers" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueoBp1ktcBE)... until finally they settled on a real number.
Just something I haven't taken notice of until now.
I can't help but also hope that this tragedy is not compounded by communal violence. We've seen it all too often in the aftermath of these types of terrorist attacks in India. If militants are responsible, a religious war is probably what they want. Peace.
To be accurate- following the most recent terrorist attacks in India, there has been little if any retaliatory violaence. The Diwali blasts last year, the attack on the mosque in New Delhi, the Varanasi blasts - you did not see retaliation. Basically, India's reputation took such a beating after Godhra in 2002, that New Delhi floods the streets with paramilitaries to keep the peace.
And while this declining incidence of communal retaliation is welcome, what is not welcome is New Delhi's inability to punish terrorists. By comparison, Israel may be going overboard in sending troops and tanks into Gaza for one soldier, but scores can get killed in India - and New Delhi does nothing. You have an extremity of action by one nation, and no action by another. For all the reforms of India's business sector, it's political sector is as broken as ever.
Vikram,
The muslim community will only act as any unfairly threatened minority would at times like this. To vilify an entire community based on the actions of a few deranged and misguided people is ridiculous. I agree that this is a difficult time for everyone and deeply empathize if the incident effected you at a personal level, but baseless invalidations are uncalled for.
Vikram; It is fanatics like you who are responsible for the kind of communal tensions that the rest of us in India have to pay a price for. Did you, for instance, react in the same way when over 1,000 muslims were systematically hunted down and killed during the Godhra riots? Or during Ayodhya? Does that mean that Hinduism has a violent streak enabled by the vast majority of its adherents? Think about it dude, and try and curb your rabid impulses in favor of some much needed rational and level headed reactions in times like these.
Vikram (36):
Do you know any Muslim people? The "vast majority" that I know condemn such attacks and are frightened by the repurcussions. Let's face it, the people who did the act got away with it (at least for now), but we know that innocent Muslims will be targetted for retaliation. Sort of like Sikhs after 9/11. Did you all pause teh way i did after 9/11 and have a fear about going into public places?
Vikram, perhaps you did not realize it, but your words are frightening and divisive and in the long run will only do more harm. Please consider carefully before commenting.
This just reeks of Al-Qaeda. 7/11 for India. I hope things brings down the left there.
Here's a good view of the Pakistani reaction
nubamountain,
yes 1000 muslims were killed, but after they set a train of hindus on fire. hindus do not act out their grievances using violence. hindus have been systametically ethnically cleansed from Kashmir. the pandits are no longer. yet we continue to appease these people and today is the logical consequence. i'm only standing up for 800 million hindus who are told to keep quiet and not rock the boat while they live by a different civil code and are blown away on their way home from work.
browniefromtx,
islamic fundamentalism can only fetser if they have some sympathy among the larger community. which is the case here. when rushdie wrote a book they were in the streets by the millions. you won't see that tomorrow.
The link you provided is doing an amazing job of connecting people. Blogs can be so powerful
Go read those reactions from some Pakis that Adi linked too. Those are more representtative of Paki reaction.
Right, just what we need. Bring the bajrang dal into power and watch them rebuild a great empire.
*Rolls eyes*
Seriously, people get a grip.
In a time like this we need each other as humans. stop blaming one another and help in any way you can. God is watching this and the terrorist will surely pay double for what they have caused here
Vikram:
Read Marc Sageman's "Understanding Terrorist Networks". Though it does not investigate Kashmiri jihadists, it may give you a better background on how internal debate and dissention within the muslim community has evolved. Where peaceful jihadists promoting Islamic, but peaceful education, were pushed aside by violent jihadists (Bin Laden,Zawahiri, etc. al)
IF India wants to rid itself of these tribalistic attitudes that permeate Hindu and Muslim communities, law enforcement and the justice system need to be far more decisive in their actions and applied evenly everywhere. Islam is just another tool being used by those who seek authoriatarian power, because at the end of the day it is a human being that makes decisions to rationalize blowing people up.
Are Tamils a society that have a violent streak? LTTE has commited very violent acts. Are Colombians ineherently violent? Narco terrorism is bloody and violent with the cartels as well as groups like FARC. Are Americans inherently violent? We've been in periodic fights over the past 100 years?
thanks for everybody who posted the help blog URLS. I've been unable to reach any family there (phone, sms, email), and am glad to have some other channel of help.
Vikram - ok, you made your point. This trajectory, which we've heard on SM more times than I care to remember, is not really helpful at this time. If you have something to offer in terms of information that would be appreciated by us all. I grieve too Vikram - my friends and their families live in Mumbai. Many of them are Muslim and have been affected by this act of violence.
Vikram (46)
You ay:
Preposterous!
What about white supremacists in the US? Do you think they have sympathy among the larger community? Most of my neighbors are white. Should I be worried in the same way if I were Muslim living in a Hindu neighborhood in Gujarat? Hmmm. We need to get you away from your computer and into the real world young man!
Vikram,
Could you tell me a little more about this sympathy? Give an example, perhaps?
Vikram, I see you're getting beat up a lot. It's too bad, because I understand the spirit of your message. Let's face it people, Certain religions have a propensity towards belligerance. Does that mean every muslim wants to fly a plane into a building or every christian wants to bomb an abortion clinic? No. But I think we'd be well to admit that "Hindu Violence" isn't really born out of any strict adherence to Hinduism, or even a warped version of it.
No one says "To die for Rama, Krishna, Ganesha, Parvati, Lakshmi, Durga, Murugha, Ayappa, will make you a martyr and get you 72 hunnies up in the sky"
nevermind the trolls, people.
The people who died today, belonged to every faith. In true Bombay spirit, people are helping each other out, offering lifts, shelter etc. This is not the time nor place to start the blame game.
this is really sad that everytime india has to bear this inhuman act of terrorism..i dont think that there is any end to this, we are not safe anywhere.i pray for all those innocent lives which are lost for no reason and for all those people who are fighting with their injuries,i wil really request our goverment to take a qick initiative rather than conducting meetings and sessions.... this has again depicted a very sad picture :-(
This is so terrible. I was in class when I first heard and I was hoping that it wouldn't turn into what it has become. I'm praying for all those poor people and their families. Hopefully the death toll doesn't get any higher.
The amazing thing about the city is that it will be back tomorrow like nothing ever happened. The resilience of the Mumbaikar is something special.
Siddhartha,
Aye aye on that one. I will be strong.
Vikram: Remember one Nathuram Godse? Advani? The Sena? Bajrang Dal thugs setting a missionary and his two children on fire in the name of Hinduism? You might want to educate yourself on communal violence in the last fifty years (a good place for you to start is "Ethnic Conflict and Civic Life : Hindus and Muslims in India, " Ashutosh Varhsney's book on riots in post independence.) Also, in in an effort to dispel you of the silver lined image of Hindus/ism, read this piece by Amitava Kumar. There's a chance that you might just evolve to resemble the main character in his reportage.
browniefrmtx,
You are not especially bright are you? How many violent acts do white supremacists engage in on a regular basis? And when they do there are marches against racism in the streets and they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Hell the US even has hate crimes laws to make the penalty even higher. Please tell me about the large white rallies where they threaten to behead any non white who insults the prophet George Washington in cartoon format. Get a grip on reality first.
please have some sensitivity, people. This is SM, not Sulkeha.
ONE more comment about, from or inspired by Vikram and I swear the banning will commence, this is NOT the time nor the place, Mutineers. >:(
Guys,
Please spread the word, there is Mumbai Help blog and Wiki as live internet help.
Before this gets into a shouting match, click on the link below. MSNBC provides a timeline of terrorist attacks in India, but for some reason, it omits terrorist attacks in 2004 and 2005. Someone who gets does not follow South Asian affairs may get the impression that the so-called "peace-process" was working, and that this attack today is a sudden attempt to disrupt the process.
Target of Terror - India
My thoughts go out to those whose families and friends have been affected by this tragedy.
"Lots of chaos as expected on the roads, many people walking home, cars stopping to offer lifts to people, locals - men, women, children - offering assistance right outside the stations where the blasts occured - with bottles of water and food and helping in any way they could. He said it was a sea of humanity."
i hope reader's digest is taking note of the above comment from kush's mumbai help link.
SMS seems to be working more reliably than most other telecom options. Have been furiously texting relatives and friends. My fiance lives next to the Mahim station and saw/heard the blasts from home. Apparently the rain is compounding the woes of rescue workers. Also briefly chatted with a muslim friend in the US who is quite scared about this tumbling quickly into any form of religious backlash. Hope that does not happen.
Has any group come forward to take responsibility? (For these or the Srinagar blasts?) Last I read, the Hindu said no one had. I would be curious also to understand if there were any intelligence failures - this kind of thing takes some planning!
And finally, prayers to all ye Gods - may the perpetrators burn.
Does anyone know if there is a the status of diplomatic efforts to get Dawood Ibrahim extradited?
Is there currently an effort on the part of Indians in the US to convince the US govt. to put pressure on its "ally in the war against terror" to do so.
These are the most poignant words I have heard from a Mumbaiker.
Whom were you trying to target? The working class men who struggle for an inch of space in local trains? The working women who knit and cut vegetables in trains on their way home? Young, dreamy students discussing exams and love? The babies accompanying their mothers, smiling back at the women around them?
Darkness is fast falling. Its raining like it will not stop. Will the rains wash away the blood? Will tomorrow be a new day. Here's to lost lifes and broken dreams.
Please all pull it together.
"I would be curious also to understand if there were any intelligence failures - this kind of thing takes some planning!"
one of the american tv channels quoted someone who said an indian government official said they had been expecting something like this but didn't know exactly where. so there may have been intelligence about this attack but not enough to pinpoint the exact location. but given mumbai's high profile and previous terrorist attacks there, one wonders whether the govt. failed in not protecting the transit system or whether the information came too late.
Death toll up to 146 according to NDTV.
http://www.ndtv.com/template/template.asp?template=terrorstrikes&slug=Serial+blasts+rock+Mumbai%2C+146+killed&id=19794&callid=0
"Union Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar, however, has said leaders should not rush to Mumbai as it will hamper relief work." - quite a relief to see some sanity at this time.
Adi,
Thanks for the link, some interesting stuff in there.
To be fair - India has improved its ability to detect and stop such attacks. There have been a number fo cases in teh past year where police or security officials found unexploded bombs on train platforms, or broke up cells of men plotting such attacks. But one of the first lessons of counter-terrorism is "You have to be lucky 100% of the time. The terrorists have to be lucky just once."
Folks, let's not get belligerent on each other here. Save the blame game for later. Right now, let's get help to all the people. I'm glad to see the Mumbai blog where people are actually helping each other. Perhaps they should make an online site for emergencies like these.
As for the hateful comments, I understand the argument from both sides. But let's not point fingers until we get proof of who is behind the attack.
And Vikram, I know what you're trying to say. I feel the same way you do now. I have family in Mumbai and I don't know about their situation in Khar. But anger can turn into hatred very easily.
As for those arguing with Vikram, please cut the guy some slack. It's easy to sit here and pray for the victims. However, your feelings would be very different if you had lost relatives back home.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that both sides are expressing opinion, and just because Vikram's opinion is a bit extreme and not what you want to hear, doesn't make him wrong. We can either tolerate such acts and pray everytime innocent people die, or we can get aggressive and retaliate. Take a look at India. They can have a lax attitude towards terrorism, or they can be like Israel and start a military strike. But these things are much bigger than us folk. All of us arguing here and posting comments will not have a big impact on them.
last I heard, death toll was around 150, injured was 250-300. This is the number I've heard from multiple sources.
"I would be curious also to understand if there were any intelligence failures - this kind of thing takes some planning!"
The Indian Home Minister Shivraj Patil said that the government had warning of an imminent attack, but not its time or place.
The Communist parties condemned the attack and call for relief efforts on a "war footing."
The opposition BJP accused the present government of being "soft on terror."
The VHP (World Hindu Council) called it a "Jihad on Hindus" (heh).
People like Vikram & Co. and the likes of Advani who wasted no time making a big deal out of the terrorist Muslim ties blah blah are pathetic. I grew up in Bombay, and would appreciate it if people could show their "concern" in more productive ways than getting on soapboxes and launching into uneducated tirades about terrorism. The local train stations, especially the ones further out (i.e. not Churchgate and Bombay Central) do not have good security or even ticket-checking mechanisms. I've always been struck by how easy it is to just walk into the station and on to the platform. Let's hope this will be a wake-up call and that all the big money that politicians and the state have made from Bombay will finally be used to boost security and infrastructure. I also very much hope that the much-touted disciplined cadre network of the RSS and Sena will focus its energies on helping people affected by the blasts rather than spouting bigotry.
If all this tragedy is to you is another chance to vent your religious prejudices, bugger off somewhere else and fight your armchair battles - India doesn't need you.
From Gaurav Sabnis: The police have clarified that the 8th was not a blast but was defused unexploded. So 8 blasts were planned but only 7 went off.
Yeah, that's right.. you represent the whole of India..
"
."we should be embarassed to have india turn into the next israel, a rogue pariah state.
The problem with India is the usual corrupt politicians and the lack of uprising from people. They round up volunteers to burn down theaters, stores, etc...., but rarely do these volunteers show up during tragedies. I think it's wrong for people to vent out their religious intolerance, but we should talk about the faults of the government. I know there is a tragedy taking place at the moment and people are panicked about their loved ones, but it's times like these the truth comes out.
To me, that sounds a lot like the moral relativism that the left is often accused of, and I strongly disagree. I don't think Vikram is wrong because he's saying something I don't want to hear, I think he's wrong because he is. I have family in the affected areas, and I spent the morning trying to get in touch and making sure everyone is OK. I lost a (distant) relative in the twin towers. So please save me the lecture about how I might feel when these things affect people dear to me. I'm still capable of thinking rationally during trying times, and don't turn into some hate-filled person the moment people I care about are threatened.
You also present a false dichotomy, one that we hear all too much these days. You say we can "either tolerate such acts" or "get aggressive and retaliate." I don't see that as the two arguments being put forth. I for one am all for getting aggressive and retaliating, the question is against whom. I'd like to catch the terrorists responsible for these acts and bring them to justice. From his comments, Vikram seems to be suggesting that we should be retaliating against muslims, because they are responsible for supporting terrorists. That is what many of us find troubling, and indeed, hateful. (All this is assuming Islamic terrorists are behind these attacks, of course, which is certainly a pretty good guess. I agree with the comments that criticize the Indian government for their failure to bring past perpretators to justice.)
So Vikram says because innocent people have been killed here, we should kill innocent people in order to get 'revenge'? How about just catching the guilty and leave innocent Muslims alone, unless he believes that no Muslim is innocent, in which case he is the exact same moral equivalent as the terrorists or the people who support such terrorism.
God help the bereaved and injured and their families.
DTK,
I am not condoning Vikram if he said that we should go after Muslims. Two of my best friends are Pakistani so please don't state that I'm a "hater". But if let's say that some Islamic terrorist group from Pakistan was behind this attack, then yes, we do need to retaliate. And by retaliate, I don't mean attacking the Muslims of India. I mean confronting the Pakistani governmment which more often than not backs these terrorists. Again, I'd like to state that I'm not in support of any attacks on Muslim civilians. But a majority of the time these terrorists are Islamic and are sponsored by Pakistan. By stating that I think India should retaliate Islamic terrorists doesn't mean that I want India to attack Muslims.
I agree with the comments that criticize the Indian government for their failure to bring past perpretators to justice
What is particularly depressing is how many of these terrorist groups often have support of political parties wthin India. In addition to a number of militant Islamic groups, you have the Naxalites which get support from communist parties, Tamil Tiger sympathizers have a number of political parties as well (but I cannot keep the initials of the parties straight), and then you have Bihar which is nothing more than series of fiefdoms, where each babu has their own personal militia, squared off against low caste militias. And don't forget the Congress Party officials who got away with the anti-Sikh riots in 1984, and the BJP-linked men of Gujarat in 2002.
No, right now people are trying to express horror and grief and comfort to everyone, and developments of the story. Not opinions. What makes Vikram and other wrong is the timing of the comments.
There will be plenty of time for opinions later. Oh boy, will there ever be!
What Vikram and people like you are saying is WRONG, no ifs and buts about it.
an eye for eye? What will be the difference between you and the terrorist if you are going to take innocent lives just as they did. We can do better than jungle-raj
Desicritics has some important numbers, for hospitals, etc. in Mumbai. Please spread the word.
Cell phones are too busy. They have provided land line numbers.
"ONE more comment about, from or inspired by Vikram and I swear the banning will commence, this is NOT the time nor the place, Mutineers. >:("
Not trying to be a flamer troll or whatever, but an event such as this is pretty darn likely to spurn this kind of debate. You're more than welcome to threaten banning, but I for one hope you don't.
HeroManyFaces, don't be ridiculous. Where is the debate?? The inappropriate commenters are saying that muslims are to blame, even though no one has claimed responsibility and no evidence has been found. Only an idiot would jump to conclusions absent any evidence.
So don't.
The reason for the potential banning is because accusations are inappropriate now. Now is the time to find out what resources are available, what numbers can loved ones call, and what the situation is like there. Please don't contribute to the hate and accusations. Now is not the time.
That Mumbai Help Blog is wonderful .. it's great to see people coming together and helping each other try to locate their families/friends. My prayers are with everyone affected.
LeT, SIMI(Students Islamic Movement of India) hand in Mumbai blasts
Sorry LeT, we always blame only u guys for whateva going on in INDIA.
update on Students Islamic Movement of India
Mother Fuckers
Noticed the link to the Maharashtra state relief and rehabilitation department feedback site on Mumbaihelp - do you think anyone actually reads that feedback? Wonder what the best way to raise hangama about the lack of preparedness might be. I hope citizens groups like Bombay First get on this case. Will see if there are petitions to sign. If anyone is aware of such efforts, do please report.
Awful, awful
My prayers are with the victims and their families.
After the expulsion of Saddams forces from Kuwait City in 1991, the British journalist Robert Fisk described as best he could the imperial dungeons, makeshift prisons, and seeping stench of rotting flesh and oil. Something evil, he wrote, has happened here.
Something evil, indeed, has happened today in Bombay.
Guys, these comments are turning into a debate. Those leaving comments (including myself) have turned this into a argument. Right now, this is not about our feelings or thoughts. This is about the people of Mumbai who need help. Let's stop leaving argumentative comments - I know I left some and now I regret it. Let's give the comment space for those looking for relatives and can provide information regarding this disaster. We'll continue our arguments on another post, but for now let's hope people get through this tragedy. Agan, I'm sorry if I was party responsible for staring a flame-ware but I'm backing off and so should you guys.
Going back to comment #19, it has been bugging me for a while now how the media loves to surrender an entire day on the calender over to terrorists. 9/11, 7/7, 7/11, 3/11. Are they going to keep doing this until each country gets a terrorist day of their own? I would hope that people make a concious effort to refer to these attacks as the World Trade Center Attacks, the Pentagon Attack, The London Bus and Tube Bombings, The Madrid Train bombings, and now the Mumbai Train bombings. I know it may take a little longer to say but for me at least if gives me the satisfaction of knowing that I am not losing days from my calendar to terrorists.
Rahul said:
OK, fair enough, we are mostly in agreement then. I read your earlier post as implying that you support what he had said, some of which was extremely reprehensible in my book. Obviously India would have to be careful with respect to how it deals with Pakistan for very realpolitik concerns, but otherwise I agree that India (and the world) needs to be tough on the Pakistani government if it turns out this was planned by one of the ISI-supported terror groups.
on a total, total tangent, have you noticed how this is leading the American convention of Month/Date to creep into the discourse of places where the standard is Date/Month.
Something like this was bound to happen, it was just a matter of time. To quote Vikram Sood "In combatting terror you need to be lucky 100% of the time, As a terrorist you only need to be lucky once". India would have long gone after terrorist camps in Pakistan, However india possesses a disadvantage as all Pakistan has to do is dangle the nuclear damocles sword over India's head. Hamas doesn't even have a military or Israel would be in India's shoes.
Terrorism is evil. Killing innocent people is evil, We've heard this over and over however i wish the Government of India took pains like the USA to improve its intelligence assets by aggressive recruiting of foreign born Indians and improve its intelligence assets. Targeted assassination, extraordinary rendition should be the tools that India should cultivate. God knows, if there is a justification for these policies India has strong qualifications. No doubt if there was a 'Dawood hand' in this in any way, he has to be eliminated , pure and simple. India has had plenty of opportunity and motive when Dawood was walking through the streets of Sharjah with his aviators and gold chains and the women on his arm. Thousands of Indians have seen Dawood in dubai, How hard would it been to place a couple of agents and blow Dawood's and Tiger Memons brains out when he was peacocking in Dubai's nightclubs. For God's sake that man made a media statement when he walked out of a theatre in Dubai after watching the bollywood movie 'Company'. Instead the CBI has to go through the formalities of 'diplomacy' and got rejected and stood up, WHY?? because India refused to extradite an Indian Driver and his arabian Princess wife when asked to do so (both were of legal age and had eloped). I've grown up in the middle east and this was the most persistent rumor for the feet dragging in Tiger's case.
If we had RAW assassinate Dawood, what would the UAE do ? attack us ?????? The government treats Indians as a necessary evil anyhow!!
India has to be aggressive, but in the right way as the option of crossing over to Azad Kashmir could spell death for thousands of Indians anyhow because of a nuclear strike. It is a fact that Musharraf had his finger on the trigger during his grand dreams of placing Pakistans flag in Srinagar.
I'm not placing the blame for the attack on Pakistan, But India's intelligence though improving need to be a little more aggressive with regards to "India's most Wanted".
It is 12:30 am here in Bangalore, but I cannot go to bed because there is a man outside the window yelling on the phone. He has been trying to reach his wife and children in Mumbai since 7 pm, and is increasingly getting desperate. I have been listening to him for the past 20 minutes, and his tone switches between angry, anxious and hopeless as he talks to his other relatives and friends. His voice breaks often. I don't know what to do - he is obviously alone, but the last thing he needs right now is for a stranger to approach him with "everything will be alright". It breaks my heart.
Very sad. The MumbaiHelpsblog comments section is sort of heartbreaking and strengthening (? is that the right word) at the same time. Hard to read the posted messages, proud of the bloggers who are staying calm and trying to help.
I'm glad to hear Manish is okay.
I've found Bill Roggio's writing at counterterrorism blog to be very informative, as usual. Dawood Ibrahim is the chief suspect at this time? But I don't know how one can know so quickly, is it because of the previous bombings?
Take care everybody, and my prayers and thoughts are with Mumbaikers and with India today.
Ask him is relatives name and the cross reference it with the list on the Mumbai Help Blog. It is something at least. He might not be internet savvy enough to know where to look.
"on a total, total tangent, have you noticed how this is leading the American convention of Month/Date to creep into the discourse of places where the standard is Date/Month."
interesting observation.. eleven-nine just doesn't have the same ring to it.
#99 - well said Abhi!
Condi's statement on TV: "...[the USA] condemns the horrific terrorist attacks in Kashmir and Mumbai..."
Interesting choice of words.
"Here's a good view of the Pakistani reaction
Jesus Christ, that's sick. When there's a pakistani attack, Indians don't even talk about it. When there's an Indian attack, pakistanis spit on our corpses.
I hope to god that India teaches pakistan a lesson after this one. It has simply gone too far. We could completely sack their whole country if we wanted to. And even if the government doesn't take action, pakistan will burn. It has to happen at some point. And when they do I'll celebrate.
Furthermore, I simply don't get this:
http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/11look.htm
# 103: I would go to your neighbor and see if he just wants someone to be with him. If you're intruding, all you have to do is leave.
There would be no communal violence in the aftermath of such incidents if the indian government was aggressive about combating terrorism and punishing the terrorists. The violence is the result of people's frustration at the govt's impotence. So there is some sense in what Vikram says about the role of the govt. Everytime i see israel in action, even Bush, I wish to god we had a govt with even half the resolve and guts. Is life in india so cheap, is our govt so inured to the death of its citizens that it feels nothing ? Can it do nothing other than making half-hearted noises at pakistan and bangladesh, lodging tame protests.
The govts reluctance to be aggressive about this issue is often interpreted as its reluctance to upset the muslim votebank. And I think there is some truth in this. Its all very well to be politically correct, but it is stupid to not see things for what they are. Definitely there are at least a few muslims in india actively supporting these islamic terrorists otherwise they would not be able to operate. The govt should not be afraid to punish them, because when it fails to do so the idea of a muslim conspiracy grows. So now instead of a few guilty traitors being punished, the entire community comes under suspicion.
What the rest of the muslims in india think, where their sympathies and loyalties lie - with the indian people or with the terrorists - honestly, i do not know. And i think that is a doubt that troubles many indians. But you cannot punish people for their thoughts or feelings, you can only punish people who have actually committed crimes - its important to remember the distinction.
quote: ""Here's a good view of the Pakistani reaction
what do you expect from a forum of a site thats called pakistani defence forum? its bound to attract weirdos.
Um guys, I suggest you stay away from the Pakistanidefenceforum site. I came across the site for the first time today, and it's filled with Pro-Pakistani people who basically have no lives and are content bashing Indians. Please stay away from that site as it will only initiate more hateful comments here.
Lashkar-e-Toiba claims responsibility for attack
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5E2vQ0bwtWw&refer=home
its time for india to give pakistan an appropriate response
Great - post links to a forum of Indian hating Pakistani bigot psychos. That will really keep tempers down.
strange -- "Lashkar denies hand in Mumbai blast"
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=12_7_2006&ItemID=31&cat=1
Some stretches of the Western Railway are already operational (These were not affected by the blasts though). As somebody said earlier, the whole city will be back to its feet by tomorrow morning. Salaam Bombay !!!
As a counter-balance to the comment above, Musharraf strongly condemns the attacks (in the Hindu).
Is India ever going to take proactive steps to ensure this doesnt happen again? Is there a difference between tolerance and cowardice?
How many times has India's patience 'almost run out'? How many more innocent lives will it take to make concrete efforts to curb Paki terrorism?
Is this going to be yet another "India tells Pakistan it needs to do more to check terrorism.
GROW SOME BALLS INDIA, OR HERE TAKE MINE.
Seems we have have an imposter... None of the posts under the handle Vikram made earlier were made by me. Admins please check the ip address of the phony Vikram (and grammar). This is my first post in this thread.
Thanks
First heavy rains, then riots and now blasts.
Mumbai is going thru a terrible phase currently. Hope it ends soon.
M. Nam
More confirmation of the LeT denial of involvement in the Mumbai blasts. But it seems quite likely they were responsible for the grenade attack in Kashmir that also happened today (they are not denying it; the papers are reporting their responsibility in categorical terms).
There are lots of other Kashmiri militant/terrorist groups besides Lashkar-e-Toiba: BBC (April 2005)
So, you are the only Vikram in the entire world? Funny.
The blasts are horrific. While we are in the midst of widespread jumping-to-conclusions, can someone quickly remind me what the motivations were behind the 93 blasts. I know Dawood and the underworld were involved, but I haven't understood why?
Why is it interesting?
Adi or someone else,
Please post the [Pakistan ] link again.
Thanks
#124,
Because she implies a link between the Mumbai blasts and Kashmir. The US has never been this forthcoming before."Seems we have have an imposter... None of the posts under the handle Vikram made earlier were made by me. Admins please check the ip address of the phony Vikram (and grammar). This is my first post in this thread."
Hmmmm. Or.. in some crazy scheme to subvert society, another set of parents could have named their child vikram too!
That Link
http://www.whybother.com/index.php?showtopic=ofnogooduse=779-227&st=0&=56123
There is a reason we keep erasing the link to the fringe Pakistani site people. What good does it do?
I don't see that. The only link she implied is that they happened the same day and were carried out by terrorists. Forthcoming? I'd say somewhat obvious.
The blasts are horrific. While we are in the midst of widespread jumping-to-conclusions, can someone quickly remind me what the motivations were behind the 93 blasts. I know Dawood and the underworld were involved, but I haven't understood why?
It was considered revenge for a series of anti-Muslim riots that took place in Bombay earlier that same year - and the police did nothing to stop the rioters. These gangs felt that if the police would do nothing, they would mete out their own brand of justice.
Disgusting. Condolences to all the victims' families.
Stupid jihadis have to ruin it for all of us. I'm a pissed off Paki today alright.
This broke my heart. I'm not Desi, but none the less I'm still very sad about these events. Will Sipa Mutiny be collecting money for the families of the victims? I hate to spew anger here...but such cowards to do such an thing...cowards!
Joaquinochoa, It's an interesting idea...
At the least, we will put up links to organizations where you can donate to help the victims. Also keep an eye on Mumbai help blog over the next few days.
Seems like the board has been disabled. I was just about to go on there and blast these zealots. Its a defense board, so I wouldn't be surprised that it attracts the loonies. But taking it as the average Pakistani reaction is just as looney, believe me.
Thanks, Tre
OTOH - Belwo is an excerpt from an article penned by Prof.Sumit Ganguly for the latest edition, July - August 2006, of Foreign Affairs magazine.
"Accordingly, the Pakistani government continues to support the insurgents, although more subtly than before. But what the Musharraf regime and its more intransigent Islamist allies fail to recognize is that Indian patience with Pakistani-sponsored violence in Kashmir and elsewhere in India is nearly at an end. Although largely ignored by the U.S. media, bombings during the festival for the Hindu holiday of Diwali in New Delhi last November, in which Pakistani-based groups were implicated, almost precipitated another major crisis, which was averted only by the Indian leadership's restraint. But it is far from clear whether such forbearance could survive another attack. Furthermore, in contrast to the 2001-2 crisis, when the Indian military lacked viable plans for responding to a Pakistani-based terrorist attack, the Indian army is now well prepared to undertake swift and decisive action by retaliating against targets in Pakistan at times and places of its own choosing. Unfortunately, the Pakistani leadership appears to be oblivious to India's growing frustration. Consequently, although another Indo-Pakistani war is not likely, it remains possible."
My thoughts and prayers are with everyone who has been affected by this inhuman tragedy. I hope all related kith and kin and friends of everybody here are safe.
Update on man-outside-window (#103 above):
His wife is fine. He burst into tears when she finally called.
It makes a rather poignant story, really. This guy (Bhushan) is a driver from Mumbai, and came to Bangalore only this weekend. He has a cellphone but his wife does not, so his only hope was calling the neighbours (who had no information). Turns out his wife could not get home because of lack of transport, and is spending the night at a temporary shelter. She finally borrowed a cellphone and called him.
On a tangent, the technology revolution in India has really changed lives. Even 5 years ago, sure as hell Bhushan would still be waiting for news.
My prayers are with everyone who has family / friends in Mumbai.
Although I cannot confirm this, apparently the US Military uses the dd/mm/yy format. Someone should be able to corrobarate this.
Cogito:
Nice post. Thanks for providing a little relief.
More pictures of the blasts (warning: somewhat graphic) here.
that's good news, CogitoErgo! Thanks for sharing something beautiful in the midst of an awful and scary day.
True, but again you don't get phone connections when all the relatives/friends (outside Mumbai) of atleast a million folks in Mumbai try to get in touch.. Terrorist attacks are not going to end sooner. So people in 'high risk cities' should have a protocol of calling just one person outside Mumbai and letting him/her know he/she is safe and ask that contact to let others know.. That'll avoid a lot of congestion in the network..
There are reports of blood shortages at hospitals. Readers in India who can give blood might want to visit Indianblooddonors.com.
Suketu Mehta weighs in on the blasts in WaPo.
This has been a really harrowing day for me. I lived in Mahim for 14 years and have significant family that still lives there in and around my fathers house. Many of whom had not come home yet as of the last time my father was able to get thru. A lot of family members do not have cell phones. My mothers immediate side of the family in Bandra are all fine. I'm just beside myself. A year ago this week I went thru this same drill with family in London. Gosh what is going on.
This feels like deja vu, reminiscient of 9/11 in an eerie way. Even though I don't know anyone in Bombay and have never been there, I feel completely connected to this event. My prayers are with you. I wish there was something I could do to help.
I hope all the people who died rest in peace.and all the people who are injure may god and goddess heal their pain and their families pain.i hope there is no communal violence.why things like this happen.it make me so angry and upset.i wish i can do something for my fellow indians.there are lot of people who gave their life for india,so we can live in peace.not that we fight each other.
Jai Shree Sai Baba
Jai Shree Krishna
God... this is so frustrating.
We have to get used to it.. This is not the first time in recent years..We have had repeated attacks all over India and there is no sign that it is going to end. The best thing to do is to be prepared for it. (like if you goto some place, think about what are the alternatives for transport, communication etc..)
You can buy your own disposable needles (at least for blood tests). Isn't that possible for a blood donation as well?
172 :(
Via Wiki, Counterterrorismblog.org has interesting pieces. Please note that it is "dot org" and not "dot com"...I first put in .com (the Wiki article simply mentioned counterterrorismblog) and pulled up some commerci-ally-plenny-of-Ann-Coulter-links site!
These things are happening way too often and easy. Please guys don't give your GANDHIAN BULLSHIT. Many of us don't subscribe to it inspite of being Indian YES. I wish there was a easy way to wipe out these elements of the society with same measure if not more. Life is way too precious to be destroyed like this.
Oops. Sorry. Just noticed MD has already posted this. The only thing my post added was cautioning the "org" and not "com" bit :).
Duuuuude, considering this:
your comment was MASSIVELY important. ;)
I have donated blood a number of times in Bombay. They do have new disposable needles for every person. You should make it a point to see them unwrap the needle in front of you.
thanks brown_fob for correcting me. my (mis)information was over a decade old. as the local blood bank advertises - "blood! it's in you to give".
A friend of mine in Bomaby told me that common people were out in the streets assisting stranded commuters returning home from work. They were providing them with drinking water, home cooked snacks/meals, towels etc. The autoriksha-wallahas and the taxi-wallahs were not charging their customers...and provoding them free rides to nearby bus-stops.
brown_fob,
see update six above, but more important than that, please keep us updated with what you hear. :)
Just got home and read this.
Terrible news :-(
Thanks for the Mumbai Help line info. Time to put the phone on redial.
My fiend reahced home at 1:30 in the night. He was overwhelmed to expeirence the sea of humanity first hand tonight. He has made a silent oath (and will also encourage his friends )- to go to office tomorrow - to show the terrorists that ...." they do not matter" . And yes, he firmly belongs to the group of people who want the terrorists to be brought to justice and expects a decent closure(whatever it takes).
My heartfelt condolences to all Mumbaikers. It seems appropriate to point out that NO CITY in India is as capable of bouncing back from a tragedy as Mumbai, whether natural or man-made.
When the dust settles down, like before, the guilty will likely be some Muslim organization with some aid from 'Foreign Elements.' But the true test of Mumbai will be how it reacts afterward. Who knows how many victims of the bombing were muslims as well. And tell me if I'm wrong, but aren't many of the shanty towns from which quickest aid arrived made of Muslim populations also. I saw a photo of an obviously Muslim guy helping the victims at the Mahim bombing site. Any retaliation by the general population will affect that guy more than LeT or JeM or whatever the terrorists call themselves these days. We'll be feeding the cycle of terror much like America is doing right now.
Be strong and keep your head for all of India! That goes double for those posting your hate on this site. Anyone can work up a rage but let's save it for another day for the deserving parties!
Sorry if I sound offensive, these kinda statements look childish. Why do we need to repeat the 'media jargons'?.. Do you folks know of any other city in which the residents fled after a terrorist attack and did not carry out their routine work the next day.. It has become a sad 'cliche'
Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer and then publish a stupid article!
I guess various pissed-off communities in Mumbai are always ready with a well-coordinated bombing plan, just in case there is a reason to use it.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1041087
dna-india reports:
On Tuesday, the cabbies of Mumbai rose to the occasion after seven serial blasts rocked the city. They pooled in the victims, kept their cool and braved the traffic and rain and made their way to the nearest hospitals.
Innocent people are killed. Its unfair. Nobody will gain by this bloodshed, said an emotionally charged Santosh Jadhav who spent his days earnings of Rs200 to buy water and snacks for the relatives of the injured and the dead.
Sorry if I sound offensive, these kinda statements look childish.
Now, Ponniyan, give someone (Mumbai) a break. Don't you out balm/ say soothing words to a city/ people that is badly hurt? Is that not cliche too? Have we become so jaded?
You cannot deny Mumbai is the financial/ film making/ wheeling and dealing capital of India and an incredibly vibrant city and metropolitan to the core. In 80s (` 20years ago), I spent just a week or so in Mumbai - but those busy trains criss-crossing, Gateway of India, beautiful Parsee young girls, and the huslte and bustle are still fresh in my mind.
Why do people have to hurt other people? Why why why do they insist?
I was talking of the mental grit of the people of Mumbai and also their self-reliance. I don't see them comemorating the Bombay Blasts with public rememberances and memorials like the people of some western cities...Or dwindling away to helplessness like the people of New Orleans. I don't know if they are going to be receiving big checks in the mail for their injuries or for soaked basements. I could be wrong.
My dear, you should have stopped after your first, flawless sentence.
"If you are late for work in Mumbai and reach the station just as the train is leaving the platform, don't despair. You can run up to the packed compartments and find many hands unfolding like petals to pull you on board. And while you will probably have to hang on to the door frame with your fingertips, you are still grateful for the empathy of your fellow passengers, already packed tighter than cattle, their shirts drenched with sweat in the badly ventilated compartment. They know that your boss might yell at you or cut your pay if you miss this train. And at the moment of contact, they do not know if the hand reaching for theirs belongs to a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian or a Brahmin or an Untouchable. Come on board, they say. We'll adjust."
-Suketu Mehta, Maximum City
tamasha, that makes me want to weep.
My freaking cousin was to be on one of the trains, but we just learned that he left work early last night and is home now, safe. Took us 5 hours to find out, but at least we know.
Peace to all who have been affected here.
Assuming what most people are thinking about who did this is the case, i'll say this:
I f**king HATE religion and all the extremism it spawns - too easily manipulated for power, money and/or political purposes. Extremist islamists are largely the current culprits in this day and age, but they pretty much all have blood on their hands.
Spirituality and kind acts, not religion and "tribal" hatred, please. I think that's all these cats from Jesus to Prince Siddartha really wanted.
How horrible. May Allah grant the people of Mumbai strength and patience to endure this tragedy and may He destroy those responsible.
It could get worse--let's hope rightwing Hindus don't go on a rampage against Muslims in retaliation.
terrible terrible terrible. i was born in borivali (north mumbai) and my folks returned to live there a few years back... one of the blasts happened there and the hospital near my folks house is innundated with casualties. many of my relatives take those trains (especially the first class compartments), and all are o.k., but with the cell phone network shut down by the authorities, there were a few hairy hours for everyone. my mom was pretty shaken up because it took forever to track down her brother. condolences to anyone who suffered in this in any way. yet again mumbai unites. yet again some deranged individuals attempt to sow discord between the people of the city will fail. i just hope the rest of the country can follow mumbai's example and keep the peace. whoever did this should not be dignified with the title of whatever religion they follow, in fact, they shouldn't even be dignified as human.
"A Muslim":
Sorry bro/sis - there is no Allah, Yahweh, or whatever you wish to call "him", and, if there is, "he" is certainly not an interventionist. There is human nature and it's a byeeotch.
But, whatever gets you through the day is cool-io is guess. Peace to you.
To quote my man Nick Cave:
"I don't believe in an interventionist God
But I know, darling, that you do
But if I did I would kneel down and ask Him
Not to intervene when it came to you
Not to touch a hair on your head
To leave you as you are
And if He felt He had to direct you
Then direct you into my arms"
To quote my man MK Gandhi:
"I am a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, and a Jew"
Apu_is_innocent,
Jinnah: "Only a Hindu could say that" : )
If he said:
We're all victims - Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Jews. That would be appropriate too!
This ain't my blog, but please keep offensive comments like this somewhere else. "A Muslim" wasn't telling you what to believe; don't tell him/her what to believe. Our cultures carry a marvelous capacity to incorporate people of all faiths - Hindu, Muslim, indigenous religions, Christian, Zoroastrian, and atheist as well.
You sound young, arrogant, and ignorant. In painful times, some people do need faith.
Ranjit,
What is so offensive in Apu's comment ? Do you have an offensive meter to measure?
And this is what he also said:
Shanti, shanti, shanti...
Communis Rixatrix:
You're right I should have shut up after the first one...I sound like one of Abhi's jingoists, and THAT I'm in mortal fear of these days. : )
Like I said "Ranjit" - whatever gets you through the day, same thing you said about some people needing faith. Why judge me? I am neither young, arrogant nor ignorant, just pragmatic.
I was not trying to offend, but to say that we need to look deeper to solve these complex problems instead of just hoping to pray them away.
I've got nothing but love for every person.
thank you rkay123 - as i just posted...
I'm sure the U.S. is to blame for this somehow.
SHANTI, SHANTI, SHANTI
Thank you for saying it Abhi. It's as if for the "glamour effect" that media tends to make it that way. I sincerely also wish for all catastrophies to be known by their own identity and not some date on a calendar. It takes away from the importance each one holds in history and for those that were affected by it and it makes everything seem so nebulous and it is not.
Saying, "sorry pal, but that God you're looking to for strength? He's bullshit," is offensive as hell. Is this not obvious? Effectively adding "whatever floats your boat" at the end is no less insulting. You were being ridiculously condescending and judgmental, and then you masked it with some weak lines from NICK CAVE and the ever-quotable Gandhi. You're quite the westernized oriental gentleman(or -woman) - scoffing at the savages and their petty gods.
Pure arrogance and presumptuousness. No one made any attempt to "pray them away". No one suggested that prayer would solve any problems. You assumed that just because someone mentioned their religious faith, they were some ignorant yokel rolling their eyes to heaven. Sand****a please.What Roger Ebert had to say about this, written in his review on the movie "Elephant" (which parallels events at Columbine in some ways, though it doesn't glamorize it)
The reporter looked disappointed, so I offered her my theory. "Events like this," I said, "if they are influenced by anything, are influenced by news programs like your own. When an unbalanced kid walks into a school and starts shooting, it becomes a major media event. Cable news drops ordinary programming and goes around the clock with it. The story is assigned a logo and a theme song; these two kids were packaged as the Trench Coat Mafia. The message is clear to other disturbed kids around the country: If I shoot up my school, I can be famous. The TV will talk about nothing else but me. Experts will try to figure out what I was thinking. The kids and teachers at school will see they shouldn't have messed with me. I'll go out in a blaze of glory."
In short, I said, events like Columbine are influenced far less by violent movies than by CNN, the NBC Nightly News and all the other news media, who glorify the killers in the guise of "explaining" them.
I finally got to read through all the posts here and my heart goes out to those who have suffered through this horrendous attack. Whoever is doing this doesn't care what faith is attacked or killed. That person doesn't value life at all. Only that is certain. As someone pointed out, I hope and pray that this doesn't start a domino reaction with the Hindus rioting etc. That will be an equally sad outcome.
The military would tag today as 11 July 2006. Just got that confirmed with someone in the service.
Damn Ranjit - relax brother, you are really taking this personally it seems. What has got your goat? Like calling people "Sandn**ga" is moving the debate forward?
I am not assuming anyone is an "ignorant "yokel" here. Perhaps you are assuming that for me. I am just trying to say to those of faith that there are deeper issues to consider and solve.
This being said, I will scoff a bit at those (of any color or religion) and their petty gods. Where has it gotten us throughout history?
I lost 3 friends on 9/11 (my office window at WFC was blown out by the blast), and almost lost a cousin yesterday (who was lucky enough to leave work early and miss the fateful train). I am just trying to find my own answer to this madness.
Blast photos on Flickr (warning: some of them are quite graphic)
http://flickr.com/photos/tags/mumbai
We all are. We are all shaken by this tragedy (especially those of us with family or friends in the city or even those of us who live in cities that are or were targets). Please, can we be nice to one another, since we have THAT in common? There will be plenty of other threads for scoffing at religion and barely-veiled epithets, so let's not do that here.
[accidentally deleted comment restored]
DAKS, the day Mahatma Gandhi's words are considered, as you so eloquently put it, BULLSHIT - will be the day that everyone has forgotten the past that allowed them to be safely tucked away in their current havens. Assuming you are of Indian ancestry - please for the love of everything that is good in this world never call that man's work bullshit.
Fair enough Anna, and i hope i was being nice as possible - it was my intention all along. Thank you for your good words. But, this being said, good heated debate often produces the best results, so let's not be too PC here.
Peace to all...
Seed some future threads for scoffing at religious manipulation, etc. then - ai-ight?? It is worthy of discussion.
PS - why did the guy have to belittle Nick Cave AND Gandhi?? ;-))))
You were being nice. :) I just wanted to do what I always stupidly did in college, get between two (usually massive Punjabi) people and try to stop a fight. ;)
As an ex-debate nerd, I totally agree. The only times I prefer that we get a little stricter are tragedies like this, entries which deal with someone's murder or death, someone's Good-bye post, etc. There's no need to hurt other people, right? And when someone starts lobbing the "sand"-bomb, no good can come of whatever's next. Save the battling for issues, not spaces where people are reading with tears in their eyes, IMO.
I don't know, darling. I'm kinda sweet on Nick Cave, too.
Thanks A N N A, solid point - oh, by the way, bad memories of desi parties during those ivy league college years - those crazy rutgers/queens college Punju homeboys, always trying to start a fight! :)
I finally saw your blog and LOVE your musical tastes - saw the new pornographers in your town of DC in the fall (9:30 Club is the shizzle). Plus, you are one hot mammi! :-))))
I've got tickets to see the Flaming Lips and Sonic Youth, with Wolf Mother opening. I KNOW you would be down with that show!
AiI: ;)
Ping me offline, if you want. I'll tell you all about my unnecessary angst over siding with The Pixies over Sonic Youth, whom I also adooooore. I don't want to threadjack my own post. :)
Oh Anna, a girl after my own heart. I saw the Pixies reunion tour last year too - solid, but they were a bit too clinical with their massive attack. I am still more Thurston and Kim over Frank and Kim (though it is really a close call). How does one "ping you offline" homegirl?
Besides praising a decadent meal and a good time, Epicurus also questioned the existence of Deism.
To wit -
"If God wishes to prevent evilbut cannot, then he/she is impotent; If he/she could, but will not, he/she is malevolent."
Kudos, Apu
Sorry, I probably amended my last "handle" too late. Try "Suitablegirl" at Google's mail dot com. It should be what my name links to on this comment, too...
"SuitableGirl" - brilliant!! I'll shout out to you Anna.
Hukku - great quote.
how long before this is blamed on the Hindutvadis? How many commissions will be set up to direct blame on the Hindus?
Fuck all of you godless bastards.
Just kidding! :-)
At the end of the day, I feel small, powerless, and frightened in the face of these events. Most of us do, I think. Sorry if I dropped the "sand-bomb" (lol anna!) too quickly for comfort. I'm a stressed-out brother. Join the crowd, right?
As for God - maybe it's not really about debating whether or not this being exists to change what happens in the world. I felt the same way you do at one point, Apu, but decided at some point that I find comfort in the idea that there is some form of meaning beyond the material world. Some people find faith in dark moments, others lose it completely. I can't really say which one is better, I can just say what I believe and resist your assault on that. You do assume too much when you state that faith necessarily replaces reason and consciousness/analysis of material circumstances. You also assume too much when you confound faith with religion. I can be fully critical and disgusted with the way religion has served as a means to oppress and divide while remaining faithful in my own personal way.
Anyway. Love and peace. I hope everyone's peoples are safe and sound.
Ranj, you ain't heavy, you're my brother, son... Your point is well taken.
There is a post on Karachi Metro blog - Best Wishes to Mumbai.
I wonder if there is any level of support for these kind of attacks by Kashmiri seperatists in the larger Kashmiri community.
Slate.com in its daily blog round-up quoted conservative American blog Captain's Quarters as one of the blog sources to visit for a take on the Mumbai bombings. Check out the first sentence:
That first sentence alone goes to show you the ignorance of a large section of conservative America. First they imply that every terrorist attack is connected to al-Qaeda and then they go on to assume that terrorism is something new to India. The entry continues:
FYI Captain's Quarters is one of the more widely read blogs here in America. Here is how its traffic compares to SM.
Slate's blog roundup was written by their intern! I swear I do better research. *ducks*
Abhi,
I am not at all implying that Al Queda is involved in Mumbai train attack.
However, you are missing two points: 1) Al Queda is not a corporation. It consists of loosely knit every-changing, disparate groups that work together from time to time, often sub-contracted and a lot of them have their hub in Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Quite a few Al-Queda operatives got their first taste of field in Kashmir. Wasn't that American Taliban kid who was arrested in Afghanistan in 2001 confessed being in Kashmir?
2) Osama bin Laden has openly threatened India on various ocasions in his video releases.
Therefore, Captain Quarters maybe wrong on this instance or maybe, they are accidently on something. Let's wait and see.
There is an excellent movie Khamoshi Pani (made by Pakistani movie director)- a very simple story that also shows how easily 1-2 operative can come to a town/ village and easily enroll militants.
Abhi:
Speculation about an al-Qaeda connection revolves around Dawood Ibrahim. Conservative bloggers do tend to conflate the various "Islamofascist" groups in the world, even w/ those that are secular and non-fascist, but I think that's better than thinking the only group America has to worry about is Al Qaeda. Politics make strange bedfellows you know, as the crises in N. Korea shows.
But at least the conservative bloggers are addressing the issue. You'd need a microscope or an hallucinogenic pill to see this act of war being addressed on a some of the liberal blogs, like daily kos or talking points memo. Why? Well, we'll leave that for another day.
It may not specifically be Al Qaeda but basically same philosophy, same goals, same M.O. To differentiate between AQ and Lashkar is drawing a very fine distinction.
I am not at all implying that Al Queda is involved in Mumbai train attack.
B. Raman, who is considered a credible Indian journalist on terrorism, openly contemplates an Al Qaeda link in Outlook.
Kush, you have to give me some credit :)
The way CQ phrased it gave the impression that al-Queda gives direct orders to every fringe group. Some of the groups in India have been operating long before the world ever heard of al-Queda.
When I want to get a pulse of the conservative mood I go to Drudge. He only had the Mumbai bombings as his headline for half a day whereas the London and Madrid bombings were up as his main headline for several days. What is the difference between Mumbai and London/Madrid? I will let you guess the obvious. The amount of attention being paid to this isn't a liberal conservative thing. It is a Wester/Eurocentric non-Western/Eurocentric thing.
The main point of my comment was not "is this AQ or isn't it" but that some sites have the impression that terrorism is NEW to India and that this is an expansion of some sort in retaliation for other global problems, which is hardly the case.
Hi, first time poster, longtime reader. Interesting point there, Manju (#213) about the liberal blogs not saying anything. I even went to my favorite magazine's website, The Nation, and all they have there is a link to an article about it from the Christian Science Monitor. Enraged earlier today, when I could not get a hold of my middle-aged parents who live in Mumbai (they are fine, I later found out), and having had to see my beloved hometown torn to shreds on 9/11 (where I still live), I decided this morning to break with the left and wrote a very angry e-mail to many of my Muslim friends (many of whom I cried and kept vigil with after the WTC), demanding to know what they thought of the Islamo-facists who they were in cahoots with who had killed my parents and that I was now considering each and every Muslim in the world to be tacitly supporting Islamo-facists (I am a Hindu, by the way). Over the course of the day, after I had spoken with my parents and friends in Mumbai, I didn't write an apology to those people, although I got many concerned responses. Although perhaps it is that the anger is still seething inside me about this senseless violence, I am wondering if many other people feel this way. I am not entirely sure that my anger this morning was totally unfounded: so many horrible things are being bombed by these people, and although Muslims seem to be equally disturbed by these things, none are out fighting terrorism to a large degree (i.e., Arabic translators in the military). I am a bit troubled by this; does anyone feel uncomfortable now? I don't mean to start some Muslim-bashing thing here, I am just wondering if these sorts of things are what have crossed other peoples' minds, and what do they think of this? Am I just going nuts?
News Hour with Jim Lehrer had a report from "Time" correspondent in Delhi. He said that Lashkar-e-Toiba is suspected. Times of India reports LeT, SIMI hand in Mumbai blasts
Lashkar-e-Toiba has known links to Al-Queda via ISI (as per Alex Perry of "Time" magazine)
Kush,
Good that you pointed out your point #2 in your post #212. I have read the transcripts of Bin Laden's video and he or Zawahiri routinely adds India to the list of their enemies.
Fair point Abhi (although a UCLA study revealed Drudge actually leans left) but it doesn't contradict my point ("But at least the conservative bloggers are addressing the issue. You'd need a microscope or an hallucinogenic pill to see this act of war being addressed on a some of the liberal blogs, like daily kos or talking points memo"); it only adds another wrinkle to it.
I'm a student at UCLA and even I don't believe that. Besides the study you are refering to was largely discredited about two months later. I will look for the link later.
Yes, on this I agree. I think America has always been psychologically isolationist even though as a political force its been dormant for more than 50 years. But every once in a while pat buchanan breaks from the republicans and taps into it.
I haven't checked out the BBC and British press yet on todays bombings, but I'm sure the coverage will be much dfferent.
CNN's Anderson Cooper is doing a good job...comprehensively covering the blasts.
Day 2: Just got off the phone with Dad. As expected, WR services have been atleast partially restored. People who spent the night in offices have started trickling back home. Others have started going back to work on the very same trains. Phone lines seems to be back to normal
i'm stunned.
it's a sad sad day.
my sincere condolences to all the families that lost loved ones in this tragedy.
unbelieveable.
If there is an Al-Qaeda hand in this, it is because they find it increasingly difficult to co-ordinate attacks on Western targets as they are too well protected, India's railways are a soft target and i wouldn't be surprised if Al-Jazeera airs a tape with Zawahari praising this new attack. Truth be told, Bin Laden and his cronies never talked about India much. Kashmir was almost a passing reference in the tapes that it was mentioned. There can be a couple of reasons for this.
A lot of jihadi funding goes through Persian Gulf countries and is influenced by Gulf based charities, during the Ayodha and Godhra incidents however, there wasn't much hue and cry by the arabs at all except for cables of condolences by the Emir's of the countries. As a matter of fact it was the Indian muslim expatriates that registered the most significant outrage against the Indian government, the arabs themselves were more concerned about the 'Palestine problem'. The arab newspapers addressed the lack of significant arab outcry. However, it turned into a 'Compare India and Israel contest' with India emerging as the winner with regards to being Islam-friendly and that was that!
However, the more common notion (and one that i personally lean towards from my life there) is that Arabs are not really concerned about Indian lives, Indians are a sub-human race in many of their eyes. Some of them still find it hard to grasp that India can defeat their countries in a military endeavour. This notion is not limited to India. Anyone from South Asia are regarded in the same light. The reason we see a lot of anti-India bias in the political scene is mainly Pakistani lobbying, Pakistan has always deployed their manpower when it came to military needs of Persian Gulf countries. If you take a look at the military personnel you shall find lots of Pakistani's in the Qatari,Saudi,Kuwaiti armed forces. When there was a lack of a adequate police commisioner in the district of Qatar i grew up,the only non-arab allowed was a capable Pakistani. During the siege of Mecca and Medina, the militants (Intrestingly this was the first reported terrorist attack where a bin-laden was implicated, it wasn't Osama) beat back the Saudi national guard and killed many of them due to guard's poor counter terrorism skills. It was Pakistan who provided special forces along with French GIGN troops (who went through the fastest conversion to Islam ever!) that managed to break the siege and kill all the militants.There is no denying Gulf funding of jihadi groups though as that and providing a safe haven for anti-India terrorists is the extent of their involvement.
Arabs don't consider India important enough. I read a report by a former RAW agent on how when they apprehended arab or Uzbek terrorists RAW couldn't intimidate them. However, when a Mossad agent was admitted to the interrogation and the militant was told that he was going to Israel with the agent, the guy was pleading not to be sent and was spilling his guts out. Such is the specter of Israel in eyes of fundies. India is simply not a significant threat.
If Al-Qaeda has decided to get involved, this is more of a cry for attention as their attempts in Canada, USA have all come apart and its increasing difficult for them to attack. And of course whatever moral justification many of them have for answering the call to Jihad died along with the last Russian tank to face the wrath of a RPG, now its all about finding new targets and making sure their presence in the world is felt and what better target than the pagan country in the east that they never paid much attention to.
Guys,
You should read.
Anyone else feeling rather alone in dealing with this? I grew up in the US and most of my close family is here, but I have been "back" to Bombay every year for the past 25, so I feel a strong connection to the country, the city and its people. And yet, it seems like everyone I know has forgotten that I'm Indian, and expects me to go about my daily business normally. Other than my family, I haven't talked to anyone about it (no one's asked, and its hard to bring up terrorism as a lunchtime conversation topic), not even the few Indians I work with, not even my Indian friends! It's weird how that happens...
Deafening sounds,and shreiks,
Go away, we don't want you here,
Pouring of love and compassion,
Come here and stay,
A field of million red roses you make this seem.
Tears that flowed yesterday,
May they be replaced by smiles today,
Prayers that you heard yesterday,
O Almighty,
Please answer them today...
Keep loved ones close,
And their love closer,
Keep their smiles and their souls intact,
And their grief --
Away.
If the Indian government had any balls they would:
1. demand UAE extradite Ibrahim and if not, send RAW agents to kill him. targeted assasination
2. close the bus line in Kashmir and send troops to the border
3. demand extradition of LET bigwigs and then try and execute them
Short of all this, an Indian's life is worth shit in the eyes of his government and many of the "love thy neighbor" morons on this board
Vikram, your point of view is valued here but ONLY if you are courteous enough to refrain from invalidating other people. Please calm down. We are all upset, whether we "love our neighbor" or not.
Our old friend, Arzan has open mic @ Metroblogging Mumbai. Please visit him.
In case no one put this up already:
The Mumbai Police have posted lists of casualties with names. A lot of the lists are written in Devanagari script. I, as well as other people, would certainly be willing to help someone read if need be.
Ranjit, that is so kind of you. Thank you for posting such a useful comment; AFAIK, no one had contributed it yet.
If anyone has additional links or resources (or heartwarming stories of tiny bits of goodness piercing the darkness), please leave them.
hail mogambo
ANNA: in response to your query :-): Amit Varma has a host of excellent links and resources, including heartwrenching and warming stories from the ground, including a few from Dilip d'Souza. My thoughts and prayers are with all Mumbaikers.
toll is up to 190 and counting...i pray for peace and love-- i pray for the end of bitterness, sorrow, and the pain of my people-- ALL of my people. Know this, my brown sisters and brothers-- nothing can truly separate us-- all are one in the eyes of Love. "Oh Lord, lead me from the unreal to the real, from darkness to light, from death to immortality"
alone:
Yea.
I've read a number of comments that criticize the Indian police force / justice system for ineffectiveness at finding and punishing the perpetrators. And I've read a number of comments that remind us that a) there are many Muslims who are against terrorist acts, b) deplore what happened, and say that c) the terrorists are the exception to civil Muslim society, not the rule. What all these comments consistently do is deny the culture and community of any role whatsoever in fundamentalist Islamic terrorism. What this rhetoric does is glosses over the fact that a community is a collection of people with a structure of relationships, and those relationships are not homogeneous but often are specialized. Understanding that structure--its elements and relationships--can help us understand better where the problems (and hence solutions) lie.
Since the ineffectiveness of the Indian police force and judicial system has been mentioned, I'd like to first contrast that with the American system, which is generally considered very efficient. If in America someone commits a crime, the police are pretty good at figuring out who did it and catching up with him--why? From the criminal's point of view, after he commits a crime (and let's say we're talking about blue-collar, violent crime, not white-collar dipping into the company-till-type crime)--beats up someone, kidnaps, or kills someone--in the society he doesn't have anywhere to go, realistically. He might evade law enforcement for a short while, but the general public is against him. There are alerts out for him--his face is on TV, in the newspapers, in the postoffice. Of course, he may find sympathetic family members or an occaisional long-time acquaintence to shelter him, but that is the extent of help he might get. In America, when a criminal commits a crime, it is a society versus an individual.
But what if there existed a series of safe-houses established to shelter the criminal? Safe-houses, of course, implies that there are some people--enough--in society who sympathize with the activities of our criminal and who would give him a safe harbor from law enforcement. People who keep and own these safe houses themselves may not directly participate in the crime, but they certainly are supporting it. The existence of a network of safe-houses implies that the people who provide them likely do not see the criminal's acts as being criminal acts at all. As such, here we have a group of people who have values that differ from the values behind the law enforcement agency that is looking for the person they are sheltering. Since these values differ and are held by a number of people who likely have relationships with each other, we are now speaking of a society. So for law enforcement, terrorism is a much harder nut to crack because it is no longer a question of a society against an individual but a society against a society.
Since societies are not homogeneous entities but are hierarchical and have specialized nodes, it is entirely possible for a small portion of society to be radically different (but not too different) in its values and functions from the mainstream society it is attached to. Take for example the clergy that represent any religion--they are typically very few and stand apart from society in terms of their education, dress, speech, and occupation. While the vast majority of the other fellow citizens that patronize their places of worship are not about to take up the life of a cleric, a few from the crowd eventually will. A cleric's expertise is being able to minister, or appeal, to a wide audience that exhibits levels of committment from minimal to superlative. The vast majority of congregants will be from minimal to moderate in their committments, but the clerics are most interested in those who will answer to a higher calling.
For example, people who are minimally faithful to Islam may consider it a good thing to propagate Islam all around the world. People who are moderately faithful believe that there needs to be some action with that lipservice and give money or time in support of Islam's conquest. And then there are the minority of people who will be on the front line who will be implementing the conquest. What they all share in common is a basic idea that at various levels of society differs in its implementation but itself remains the same.
And implementation of an idea itself is also a kind of idea, too. If violence has legitimacy in the tradition (as in, that's how the great religious leaders in the past did it), then violence can never be completely ruled out as a legitimate means of achieving ends for which the tradition has given sanction. The Mahabharata and the Ramayana--the two great Hindu epics--closely tie violence and religion. According to them there is such a thing as a dharma-yuddha, or a holy war, a fight on the grounds of religion. Islam also has an extensive provision for the use of violence in achieving its ends. (This is not to argue some theological equivalency between Hinduism and Islam in the matter of violence. If in both tradions we look closely at the conditions and rationales underwhich violence is sanctioned within each, we will see important differences.) What this means is that the religion itself, as it has been historically practiced, is a source for values in the community, and the swamis, sadhus, druids, priests, clerics, mullahs, etc., are the gatekeepers of that source.
It is one thing to deplore violence, as many fine Muslims do, yet it would be quite another thing for them to repudiate their tradition. Repudiating tradition means practically repudiating one's own identity--something the vast majority of Muslims who sincerely condemn terrorism are unlikely to do. Hence, there will always be a space within Muslim society at large for a small, minority to superlatively follow the tradition. Otherwise, to repudiate one's tradition would put one outside of his tradition and the community that is more or less founded on it. But who is to say what notion of tradition is authentic and what is inauthentic? That comes back to the heads of the religion--the priests, the clerics, etc. They are therefore the gatekeepers of a very important source of values for the community.
Although terrorism is conducted by a minority, it is an elite minority of clerics that has the allegience and legitimacy of the people they lead. This elite minority (including terrorists - they are elite even if we don't like them) is cultivated from a majority who will likely never become extremists. This elite minority, however, retains a general sense of legitimacy from its majority, non-extremeist members who are faced with either condemning violence officially and generally but who also choose not to challenge or break with the tradition.
What this all suggests is that if we really want to do something about Islamic terrorism, we must first recognize that it is indeed a problem at the societal level. Then the "gate keepers" of Islamic tradition--the Mullahs--will have to be seriously altered in their understanding of Islam or outright shut down. I don't think that this will happen without significant interference from forces that are outside of Islamic culture. But the clerics are the disseminators of ideas, recruiters, and maintainers of what we know today as Islam.
If you can change them, the Muslim clerics, then you will make much progress in controlling terrorism. But if you cannot change them, then no matter how much we beef up security and law enforcement, terrorism will recur just as a hydra's heads grow back after they are cut off.
I have not read all the comments but apologize if somebody has already put this information on earlier.
There is a website, www.mumbaipolice.org, that has a list of all the casulaties. The poeple who are wounded are listed by name and which hospital they have been admitted. Also, per Zee News Network, there is no shortage of blood anymore. People donated blood in droves and the doctor being interviewed opined that he does not see a need for more blood donations.
Also, there were numerous stories of how Mumbaikars helped each other thru these trying times, just the way they did during the flooding last year. Hats off to them!!! They are not going a bunch of cowards beat them.
LET says its not them - historically they claim responsibility for attacks.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-07-12T070258Z_01_ISL75944_RTRUKOC_0_US-INDIA-BLAST-MILITANTS.xml&archived=False
DUBAI DAVE: Nice one, mate. 'Cos what the world needs now is MORE violence! Of course! I can't believe it took us so long to see it, thanks for stepping in there.
And Vikram too, *brilliant brilliant* analysis of postcolonial international politics and security issues.
I am *so relieved* that there are people like you guys out there posting your comforting comments for us all to see.
Particularly for those who have family members directly affected by these blasts, or who have been frantically trying to get in touch with them to see if they are alright. I mean if it wasn't well wishes, your sentiments would have certainly warmed their hearts as much as they have warmed mine.
Nice one, guys. As others have said, it would be nice if this thread at least could be a space for us to come together and share our grief.
Yes, we're all angry about what's happened but may I suggest you set up your own blog if you want to take over a thread with a post about a national tragedy with the topic of Muslim hatred.
How about, um, ifuckinghatethoseturbanheads.com? Or nukesachievepeace.net? I for one promise to pay it a visit and leave you comments that are about as intelligent and insightful as the ones you chose to leave today.
Flygirl, we're Bombayites and always will be. If anyone's noticed the discussions being had today between Indians, or even on the title of this post, we've slipped back into familiar 'Bombay' and all the emotion it evokes.
For all those directly affected by the attacks, heartfelt condolences. It's not about politics, or religion or sectarian whatever, today just made me realise the importance of family. Peace to all
RC and alone: yeah, I so know what you mean.
Sorry for outburst against Vikram, DubaiDave et al, I guess I'm still not that great at troll-spotting...SM intern, you were right in your calls for peace. What the world needs now is
LOVE
tashie: touche :-) kiwi sista. good on you for calling out the trolls.
Numbers:
Dead:195
Injured: 625
(So Far)
Hope the numbers stop here.
"Dropping a nuke on mecca" is going too far, i understand your sentiment though. Pakistanis use terror as a form of negotiation, a tool for bringing us to the table. If our govt doesn't take any action this time, we may as well hand the Pakis our piece of Kashmir. Whats the worst that could happen by taking some sort of action, we have already been invaded once (kargil), our parliament has been attacked, our cities and religious sites have been attacked, the only thing left is getting bombed in an all out war. Lets just hope we pull a U.S rather than a Spain (remember how they retreated from Iraq after the madrid bombings).
Pray for Mumbai
Jai Maharashtra!
Shri Dubai Dave, you are really turning me on!
Hail Mogambo!
A good suggestion.. You might want to add "Hadiths" and related stuff too..
Jatin
"After condemning the Mumbai train blasts, Pakistan has said the 'best way' of dealing with extremism in South Asia is to tackle 'real issue' of Jammu and Kashmir." "We need to take steps in which extremism is discouraged. Extremism in one religion leads to extremism in the other,"Pakistani Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmoud Kasuri
Really? Some people are too predictable. I'm against riots, revenge killings, etc. etc. But I'm all for doing something about our pesky neighbors and their "moral support" and aid to terrorists. Really, they're a menace!
More at: Solve real issues to counter extremism: Kasuri
I know that I should be more tolerant. I know I should value free speech more, but tell me SM interns and administrators, what's the point of threatening to ban IP addresses when you then leave the users with hate speech comments(e.g., "I am all for dropping a nuke on Mecca") unbanned? If anything, the lack of enforcement is now allowing every Muslim-hater to be more daring. Good going.
Maybe because they have seen "real" bombs on Varanasi temples.. and ignore the "empty threats"..
I'm linking you guys. Love and Peace. Especially now.
"it seems like everyone I know has forgotten that I'm Indian, and expects me to go about my daily business normally. Other than my family, I haven't talked to anyone about it (no one's asked, and its hard to bring up terrorism as a lunchtime conversation topic)"
Alone I am also struggling with this. I managed to reach my sister and her family, and they are alright. Some of my friends here know that I have family in Mumbai, but no one has called/asked after my sister, nor have they mentioned the bomb blasts. Some friends called in the evening and they did not seem very aware of what had happened in Bombay, though they said they "thought they saw something on TV". My family here in the US has not called me to ask if my sister is Ok.
On September 11, I spent hours calling family and friends in New York (I was not living here at that time). I can't understand this. I feel very alone and I can't bring myself to believe no one cares but somewhere inside me I feel a little bitter about it. All I can do now is be grateful my sister is alive, and I am so sad about all those who died in this terrible event.
A couple of points:
1. Speculation is fine, but I think people should hold-fire with regards to the unnecessary sabre rattling until it has been confirmed exactly who is responsible for the attacks. As far as I know, so far LeT has not claimed responsibility, which leaves the possibility of several other groups being behind it (Dawood, Al-Qaeda, domestic AQ sympathisers, etc).
2. Personally, I don't think incidents such as these "deny" the existence of God. They do the opposite -- they confirm the persistent existence of malevolence within the human mind and heart. Unless you believe in Satan or some equivalent -- which I do not, both as a personal opinion and also as a Sikh -- human beings themselves are responsible for such malicious acts due to their own internal corruption, lack of empathy towards fellow people, and (quite possibly) various psychiatric issues. It would also be worthwhile to consider that God does intervene in these situations via the use of humans as instruments to fight against such terrorists, and also in the ordinary acts of kindness that people demonstrate towards each other -- whether it is direct medical assistance, assisting people in locating their lost loved ones, or just providing some other kind of material and/or emotional support in such terrible times. One could even say that the acts of compassion and statements of empathy on this very blog right now are evidence of God's hand at work and, indeed, the presence of God in everyone.
3. The religious basis for these atrocities is a tricky and highly controversial topic. It's also something which has been discussed several times previously on SM. Depending on your point of view -- and the terrorist concerned -- I guess some jihadists will be able to interpret their faith's scriptures and tenets in such a way as to assert that they are indeed acting according to their religion's teachings; with others, it will be a matter of being driven by political (and/or psychiatric) motivations but cloaking this in the self-righteous garb of religion in order to justify their actions and their own internal "issues".
All "regular" people can do at this point in time is to intervene directly to assist those in need if they are in a position to be able to do so, and to pray that God gives them the strength to overcome their adversities if others cannot help them directly.
With regards to the terrorists responsible, well I don't believe in Hell (again, individually or theologically) -- but unless they overcome their lack of spiritual awareness and, especially, their lack of compassion and empathy towards their fellow man (irrespective of the latter's religious affiliation) during their current lifetimes, what my own religion states is that upon their deaths their souls will undergo a trial for their actions and level of spiritual "separation" from God, after which their memories will be wiped and they will be sent back to be re-born in a situation depending on the verdict. So, they will essentially undergo "extinction" as individuals. From my point of view, that is worse -- and a possibly more fitting "punishment" -- than any degree of torment in the afterlife.
People reap what they sow.
Go to http://www.mumbaipolice.org They have up-to-date list of dead and injured in nearby hospitals. A quick look reveals people from all religious denomination. What a cowardly act by whomever?
I decided this morning to break with the left and wrote a very angry e-mail to many of my Muslim friends (many of whom I cried and kept vigil with after the WTC), demanding to know what they thought of the Islamo-facists who they were in cahoots with who had killed my parents and that I was now considering each and every Muslim in the world to be tacitly supporting Islamo-facists (I am a Hindu, by the way).
Your parents were killed in the bomb attacks in Bombay?
Sticks and Stones and others,
We try to have a consistent hate-speech policy. In this case many of us were sleeping when "Dubai Dave" was posting his nonsense.
If you see something you think is offensive, send us an email with a link.
It is only a matter of time before this tactic is repeated in other cities. Bangalore has unfortunately had only a minor taste with the IISc attack. Hyderabad is possibly another target. There will be more hand wringing and crying, but no real action to prevent these events.
*praying*
The true battle of history is fought between the epicure and the Puritan - Salman Rushdie.
Well said and apt in these troubled times.
To SM Intern,
You said to calm down. I understand the sentiment. But what about anti-Hindu vitriol by SpoorLam? Thats allowed? WTF? Well this is your board. I have no say in it and I dont wish to have one either. I am just pointing out.
That's just "humor" and the other banned comments are "hate speech"...;-)
Vikram, Spoorlam is not just humor, it's humor mocking a specific attitude and way of talking amongst some extreme elements on the Hindu right (not all Hindus). Such extreme voices do exist, and show up at SM from time to time.
If you want to discuss this further, email me offline.
The "I" could be you or I. It could be New York, Mumbai, London or Madrid. It could be humanity. It could be civilization or it could be a nation-state. It reads to me what it reads to me and I thought I'd share. It provided relief after 9/11. It is apt now.
from Leaves of Grass.
I, too, have found the coverage of the whole thing weird and distinctly underwhelming. It did make front page of many newspapers, but most have led with something else: the day of carnage in Iraq, the Israeli incursion into Lebanon, the belated American decision to adopt the Geneva convention for detainees. All significant news items, but...
On most personal blogs (at least stateside), it's like nothing happened at all.
I don't remember Madrid being like this. I don't remember London being like this. Why is Bombay less? Is it somehow more terrible, or more relevant, if it happens in Europe? Is there some notion that Europeans are people like "us"?
(Yesterday an old white lady actually asked me: "Where are you people from?")
Evidence: a sampling of newspaper front pages. Most astonishing is the number of them that lead with entirely trivial items, like some CEO resigning.
counterpoint.. canada is listening.
G&M today
The star today
(Note that the links might expire after today)
abhi, Manju
If I want to read the 'pulse' of the conservative blogs, I go to realclearpolitics.com. It's probably a better site for that sort of thing, abhi. I, too, was surprised when I read that at Captain's Quarters. A commenter quickly calls him on it, if you read the comments to the site. The more 'nuts-and'bolts' sites like the counterterrorism blog I linked to would not make that mistake, nor would some of the (US) military bloggers I read.
Again, very sad, and my thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones.
Yeah, but I mean countries outside India...
You're not American or European or rich, ergo not like us, ergo nobody cares.
It's also interesting to see how many papers lead with a large, dramatic photo (newspaper editors love those) of a wrecked Bombay train, while the actual column inches on the front-page are given over to some other, entirely unconnected issue.
The link below is a first person account of someone who survived the bomb blasts:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2006/07/12/stories/2006071204770900.htm
just to continue my thought from #263.
Guess who's as resilient as ever.
In the last half-hour, the NY Times online has taken it off the front-page entirely.
Disappointing, but not entirely surprising.
Not true. They simply replaced it with a story about the ongoing investigation.
The BBC webpage had put a think black ribbon about the news, and made it take up more than the usual amount of space. They too have downsized the story now as new news is limited.
Not not true. They've updated since I last checked, which must have been during the window of time between the taking down of the photo and the posting of Amelia Gentleman's article.
Anyway, you get my general point: this should be the leader, but the mainstream media doesn't agree. And I think it would be different if the blasts had happened in Rome or Stockholm.
Here is an interesting angle of a NYTimes editor out of India and his frustration about the word "resilient".
"it seems like everyone I know has forgotten that I'm Indian, and expects me to go about my daily business normally. Other than my family, I haven't talked to anyone about it (no one's asked, and its hard to bring up terrorism as a lunchtime conversation topic)"
Alone I am also struggling with this. I managed to reach my sister and her family, and they are alright. Some of my friends here know that I have family in Mumbai, but no one has called/asked after my sister, nor have they mentioned the bomb blasts. Some friends called in the evening and they did not seem very aware of what had happened in Bombay, though they said they "thought they saw something on TV". My family here in the US has not called me to ask if my sister is Ok.
I felt the same. Nobody at work (USA) asked after me. Luckily there are a few desis I could commiserate with.
The level of on-going publicity for the blasts in the media may increase if it is confirmed that Al-Qaeda were behind them.
Good article on Washington Post
But -- and here's the crux of the matter -- how long can India, Indians and the Singh government withstand the constant pressure from militant groups before they have to react? By any measure of international diplomacy, they've already been extraordinarily patient; compare their restraint with Israel's response to the kidnapping of its soldier or to the U.S. and Japanese responses to North Korea's missile tests.
PS: I'm sorry to hear that Indians over in the US haven't been getting the level of support or media coverage that they deserve in this matter. The major British news channels are covering the Bombay attacks extensively as a "lead story" and, I believe, have even had "on the ground" reports where they interview Indians in towns/areas here in the UK where there is a substantial desi population. They have also included reports on current and impending prayer gatherings for the victims in various temples around the country.
The disparity between the UK and the US may be a result of the fact that (South) Asians are the largest ethnic minority group in the UK and the cultural/social impact has been quite significant during the past 10 years or so, along with (possibly) the colonial connection.
But there is one media report out there (in Bloomberg; linked in one of the posts above) which states that LeT has claimed responsibility.
Of course, theres another report making the rounds on the news wire in which the LeT denies responsibility (the same exact report has been picked up by Reuters, DNA, and other news sources; it has been posted above).
I dont know which report to believe, but according to these people, there have been arrests of LeT agents in Delhi and Mumbai in recent weeks:
Clarification: By "country", I was referring to the UK, not India.
Can't agree more with the comments on lack of coverage/interest in the media. Odder yet, like some posts pointed out, is the lack of interest among the people. Perhaps, a result of the lack of coverage.
It is a little early to speculate, but going by past form, the facts point towards radical islamic groups - al qaeda or kashmiri. If the "global war on terror" is really front-and-center of the nation's (USA) agenda, one would think this story would have gotten more interest in opinion pages, political blogs etc. I guess its really the "global war on terror - if it affects us".
More glaring, in the articles that have been written, is the lack of understanding of India's long history with islamic terrorism. I still remember a conversation in '97-98, when the nature of Al Qaeda and globalized jihad were not common knowledge. An old classmate who had joined the Indian Army was telling me his patrol had encountered two militants in Kashmir. He said they were bewildered when they found out the guys were Sudanese!
So why do we care if american msm/blogs are headlining this story or not? Mumbai/India already seem to have moved on - even the trains on the affected line are running. And I have the same feeling as the author Naresh in NYT op-ed wrote about today at least his initial gut feeling that this constant carping about the resilience or indomitable spirit of Mumbai is getting annoying. There are so many incidents of this type in India that people just shrug them and move on. It has happened recently in Ayodhya, Varanasi, Delhi and now Mumbai. It seems those attempting to terrorize Indians don't understand that Indians as a whole are beyond this now. They have been living for so long with terrible and corrupt politicians, police, bureaucracy, media etc. that they have perhaps resigned to their fate or are just plain indifferent. Hopefully one day - and i am not holding my breath - this general blasé attitude will give way to peaceful demands of accountability.
I guess this is the price India has to pay for historically aiding and abetting terrorism in other countries like Sri Lanka. The LTTE, trained and funded by the Indian government has killed thousands by placing bombs on buses, trains and public places. Indian money went into all that. Now it is India's turn to feel the pain that Sri Lankans have been feeling for close to 20 decades.
newbie, because what gets reported in american msm/blogs affects the understanding folks here have of the world. and these folks vote. i am working on the hypothesis that the more we understand, appreciate affairs beyond our own borders, the more likely we are to make good political choices - like voting for the right people, pressuring the inept ones etc.
Abhi,
Because that thread was closed, I'm posting it here.. din't mean to hijack.. just to post my side of the story.. apologies..
I think you got confused with what RC said.This is what I said
I never said anything about "Muslim extremist" comments.. Infact I'd welcome such comments. No censorships unless it ends up in personal abuse and endless cycles would be my policy.... Ofcourse it is your right to have policies that suit your blog.. I just raised a question in a "generic sense" if it is really helpful to ban one stream of ideas completely..
Yes, I have no doubt of that.
Also, if I close comments it's for a reason. Please do not post your comments here. If you have something more to say then email me offline.
When I read Kobiyashi's comment:
don't remember Madrid being like this. I don't remember London being like this. Why is Bombay less? Is it somehow more terrible, or more relevant, if it happens in Europe? Is there some notion that Europeans are people like "us"?
it reminded me of an older piece from theonion.com:
15,000 Brown People Dead Somewhere
November 18, 1998 | Issue 3416
OOGA-BOOGA LAND OR WHEREVERRelief efforts are pouring into some country someplace, where 15,000 brown people have died over the past few weeks from flooding or a hurricane or something like that. "Never have our people endured such a terrible catastrophe," said this one dark-skinned guy who lost his entire family in the disaster of some sort. "Our God has forsaken us." The affected nation may possibly be the same one where about 90,000 brown people died two or three years ago in that one earthquake.
How long will be just ambiguous brown people?
"I guess this is the price India has to pay for historically aiding and abetting terrorism in other countries like Sri Lanka. The LTTE, trained and funded by the Indian government has killed thousands by placing bombs on buses, trains and public places. Indian money went into all that. Now it is India's turn to feel the pain that Sri Lankans have been feeling for close to 20 decades."
Dude you're totally right, India hasn't had anything pain inducing happen within its borders in the last 20 decades. Maybe one day we'll see the light, and add 20 syllables to our last names too.
For what is is worth, the Little Green Footballs blog devoted allons of ink to the Bombay bombings.
Time for Indian/Americans to rethink their unconditional support for the deomcrats/left. Esp, If India's security and progress holds primacy over other American domestic issue, such as, gay marriage etc for you.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21493_Religion_of_Train_Bombings#comments
CNN's Anderson Cooper is doing a good job...comprehensively covering the blasts.
Cooper did a bang-up job on his show. I started watching at 10:00 PM Central time, and was impressed with the number of people he interviewed, both in India and Indians living in the U.S., like Suketu Mehta. And even when it was a subject he was not that familiar with, he came across as being willing to learn about India without coming across as condescending.
But for those who complain about American coverage, charging them with regarding Indian life as less important than American, European, or Israeli - I again reititerate my point that since the government of India does not place a high importance on the lives of its people, you cannot expect non-Indians to do so. Indian governments do not provide adequate security, reliable infrastructure that does not wash away with each monsoon, they cannot provide safe roads or safe drinking water. With such a callous disregard for the voters, why expect foreign media to treat them with any greater concern?
Abhi,
Since the earlier thread was closed I think I need to get myside clearly. (This is my last comment about the subject)
I never said that there are Muslim extremists on this board. All I said that SpoorLam's comments were blatantly anti-Hindu and he/she lumps a lot of people togather in commenting and not just Hindutva supporters. I am not a Gujarati nor am I a practising Hindu (let alone Hindutva supporter) to get offended by SpoorLam's comments. But I felt that he/she was pushing his/her agenda under the guise of "funny". If people like it, thats fine.. to each their own.
I guess thats my cue to go to Sulekha, instead. Which is fine. This is your house. If you go back and check my comments, they are never anti-muslim tirades. There is a reason why I linked to the 20/20 video which George Stephonopolous created about group dynamic.
No that wasn't a cue to you. That was a more generaly directed statement. I think your comments are fine.
Sorry I didnt see comment #288. Admins, please take off #293 I will use email to communicate on this subject if I wish to. Just so that the real discussion here doesnt get de-railed.
To the cats who are constantly monitoring the thread and picking off the rogue posts:
Not that I mind it, in fact it's somewhat entertaining to watch yall shoot em down so quick. How does one get trained so well in this discipline? Were you working the superbowl control booth during 04? do you take shifts, ice your fingers. Inquirinig minds want to know
Skepmod: KXB made my point. There is little american media can do when our own govt. is at bottom of the pits. And its not just the govt. Somehow Indian people are patient beyond limits. They demand little from the people they elect. And what they do demand, it is for their individual short term gain. And society as a whole can go to hell. I can think of many reasons why this is but i am not sure about the principle reason why we Indians are the way we are
while the resilience and spirit of the indian people is indeed heartening, we saw it after the tsunami as well, most villages in southern india and sri lanka attempted to get back on their own feet long before others, it is also a double-edged sword. it contributes in some way to the amnesia of the global media (which already suffers from it when it comes to coverning terrorism in the non-western world, barring some exceptions like bbc), because good news or people just shrugging and getting on with their lives is not sexy enough and makes for boring news, especially when it's happening in india and not in london, where those train bombings were covered around the clock on u.s. tv (and the same old facts were repeated over and over until new news was available).
this resilience and do-it-yourself attitude also allows the indian govt. to get off the hook time and time again. again we have the pm mouthing the same words - eloquent maybe and all this talk about standing up to terrorists is good, but when will the government practice what it preaches to its citizens? all these same predictable words after each and every terrorist attack are but an ineffective balm that soothes until the next outrage. no one wants india to behave like the u.s. or the pm to be exactly like bush, but if the indian government itself is perceived as being so soft and mild all the time, no wonder no one really pays that much attention. unfortunately india's hands are tied. if she tries and behaves like a responsible power and continues to be as patient, her citizens suffer, if she gets belligerent or rescinds the more recent security concessions she has made, the global and domestic (of which there is no shortage) condemnation comes flooding in. i don't see the status quo changing anytime soon. i remember people in india stoppping still for moment of silence for the world trade center victims. have we ever stopped and had a moment of silence for india's own victims?
Americans in general are not interested in happenings in other parts of the world. London did receive a lot of coverage, and so did the tsunami. But other than that Americans have always been an insular species and not too concerned with what happens anywhere else in the world. I would love to see this change of course but am just saying.
To the extent that they can relate to the problem they have been adequately responsive. In New York there are many more cops around today and I heard a report on NPR that security is going to be tightened throughout the City in response to the Bombay attacks just as a precautionary measure. That's more than we can hope for from their counterparts in India.
ThirtyGs, as amazingly asinine as Shafraz's attempt at a comment was, I really wish you didn't go here:
.Her comment spoke for itself, my friend.
several right and left blogs in the u.s. covered the blasts. however, predictably they looked at it through their own political prisms and some used it for their own goal scoring. some right-leaning blogs used it to give bush carte blance and left-leaning ones used the very same blasts to bash bush. on the huffington post, some posters had to actually point out to the other commentators that they were so interested in criticizing bush that none of them had even mentioned one word of sympathy for the victims.
Al Mujahid for Debauchery -
I am a Kashmiri Pandit whose family was forced out in the early 90s from Srinagar. However, I still retain friendships with Kashmiri Muslims [most of whom are ardent supporters of Kashmiri Independence], here in the US and in Kashmir.
And everytime civillians are killed in their name, they are outraged. Not least because it is a natural huma reaction. But also because it does their cause a large disservice, by conflating their legitimate demands [not all, albeit] with those of the Pakistan backed nutcases.
WOW. Axe to grind much?
How on earth is this a helpful or even respectful thing to say at a time like this? Is your sensitivity fuse blown?
If it isn't abundantly clear, we are no fan of jingoists either. Perhaps you could take your own advice.
You are articulate and obviously have a different POV than most here; it could be a valuable one, but that would probably require that you lay off the sanctimonious usage and abusage of this tragedy for other ends. It's about as distasteful as when politicians wrap themselves in 9/11 for their own, thinly-veiled purposes.
Americans in general are not interested in happenings in other parts of the world. London did receive a lot of coverage, and so did the tsunami. But other than that Americans have always been an insular species and not too concerned with what happens anywhere else in the world. I would love to see this change of course but am just saying.
This is a common stereotype which I think is not backed up by facts. IMO, Americans are interested in other cultures, but they have misgivings about getting involved in the politics of other nations. I'm focusing on the general public, and not the actions of its government - so those of you ready to trot out Allende can take a rest. American children are obsesed with Japanese anime, style-conscious American homeowners devour magazines that tell that what is in fashion in France and Italy, Americans still travel overseas in greater numbers, impressive for a country bordered by only two nations. It's professional sports leagues are increasingly international.
So while Americans have no problem in interacting with the world, they will have misgivings about adopting some attitudes of other countries. From the mundane (Americans trying to figure out why the world is gaga over soccer) to the serious (the consensus that America is greedy, despite pushing for debt relief, being he most important nation in tsunami relief, etc.).
My own interactions with middle class Indians is not that different from middle class Americans. They draw their impressions of America from the media - so in America, sex is free and easy, everyone has an SUV, some ethnic groups are too be avoided. An American may draw certain impressions from the media as well, but will generally keep those to himself. An Indian will draw impressions of a country they have never been to, and challenge you to prove them wrong. (Or that may just be Bengali trait.)
Forbes is reporting 200 dead and over 700 wounded :-(
Here is a list of Mumbai/Thane blood banks with contact info.
KXB - I was specifically referring to happenings and not fun things like anime, etc. People in India and elsewhere generally know what's going on in the U.S. But most Americans have no clue what's happening in other parts of the world and nor are they interested. The geograhic insularity may have something to do with the psychological one. Their concept of international news is restricted to happenings in the Middle East and Israel. By contrast, if you watch the French news you will see thatthey report on all corners of the globe, including Africa (perhaps because of the Francophone element) and Asia and Australia and all of Europe and the US of course.
why were Shafraz's comments deleted? i would much rather read that, even though one may take some exception to it and at least would have a chance of trying to refute it or argue it or debate it, than lame spoor's repeated often vulgar one-note samba tiresome inanities which, for some reason that eludes me personally, others actually seem to still find funny and worthy of not being deleted. Shafraz wasn't being overly rude or vulgar but was merely stating their point of view.
agreed...spoor was funny at first. but its old now...
Interesting that you mention this, Divya. On a slightly OT note, I actually had a non-minority colleague say (in the workplace!) that he felt the tsunami received far too much media attention because he didn't feel there was any mystery or investigation aspect that warranted such heavy coverage. He elaborated that there was nothing special about a big wave coming and wiping out people, whereas he felt a war or terrorist attack was at least *interesting* in that there was a whodunnit angle.
How sick is the insensitivity of that?
Might have been accidental, since her other comment still stands. WGiiA, we're not trying to be unfair or unreasonable. We are human, we've been known to accidentally delete someone innocent as we try and remove anti-Hindu or anti-Muslim garbage.
Mumbai is back to normal. The death toll has crossed 200, that's 200 more Indian stars in the sky tonight.
All trains are working again and the Bombay Stock Exchange (BSE SENSEX) closed 314 points up. The Prime Minister addressed the nation at 8 PM today, he saluted the people of Mumbai and Srinagar for their strength.
For some reason the state of Kerala has been put on high alert? ;-)
sorry anna, didn't see that the earlier one still stands. i understand the difficulties you have in moderating a board. thanks.
Admin,
I was wondering if you can tell me why a story about Israels invasion of Lebanon deleted. I wasnt sure if the news tab is exclusively for news items relating to South Asia (if that is the case I apologize for posting the item). Thanks
I was wondering if you can tell me why a story about Israels invasion of Lebanon deleted. I wasnt sure if the news tab is exclusively for news items relating to South Asia (if that is the case I apologize for posting the item). Thanks
I'm not admin, but when I saw the article, I did not see what it had to do with South Asia. It's an importnat story of the day, but it would look just as out place if this forum focused on China, South Africa, or Brazil.
It is. :) All things brown, pertaining to the South Asian diaspora, etc. It's not for other news stories, i.e., if we wouldn't blog it here, it doesn't belong. :) Thanks for asking about it so nicely!
:+:
WGiiA:
No worries. :)
You're a regular and I didn't want you to think poorly of a space that is thrilled you waste your time with us. ;)
I was wondering if you can tell me why a story about Israels invasion of Lebanon deleted. I wasnt sure if the news tab is exclusively for news items relating to South Asia (if that is the case I apologize for posting the item). Thanks Hope this doesn't cause any confusion, the posting was in no way my attempt to instigate fundamentalist rants.
Yes, it is for news items related to stories about the South Asian Diaspora or countries in South Asia.
ANNA,
Thanks for the response, it definitely makes sense and in hindsight it wasn't a good move. Keep up the great work and don't be overwhelmed by the fools they come dime a dozen.
Whose God is it anyways?,
I deleted the rant by Shafraz. Accusing Hindu Indians of reaping what they sow and what not was pure and simple flame. They next 40 comments would have been wasted trying to diffuse the situation. There was no debate potential there. Our fingers are already tired from moderating so I am erring on the side of caution. If we delete anti-Muslim flame it is only fair that we delete anti-Hindu flame.
Wow, for once I get to be the "cool Mom"/good cop who's more lenient. ;) Who wants chocolate chip cookies and horizon organic milk? :D
DD -
Wow -- all about the entertainment value. Sick indeed.
Since it seems to be coming up so much: I just want to say that I really really appreciate SM's 'keep it balanced and extreme/hate-free policies' as do many others. Those who complain about the blog being one-sided one way or the other usually have strong affiliations of one type or other, and so any comment that either seeks to understand the point of view of the other side or be critical of their own seems 'extreme' to them.
Clearly, a lot of hard work,time,intelligence and sensitivity go into making sure this remains a community (and what an important word that is in these times) that fosters dialogue and in which everyone feels welcome and is free to speak as long as it is clear that there is no hate-filled agenda.
PS: not to threadjack, but I do think SpoorLam's satire is often funny and therefore acceptable...and while I agree that humour is subjective and his posts can get a little too anal (literally) for me, hey, there's a rich Swiftian (and other) tradition of excremental/sexual satire behind him!
Firstly, SpoorLam is hilarious, and long may he/she rule.
Secondly, he/she satirises the essentialist views and inflammatory rhetoric of Hindu extremists who deal in victimhood and persecution complexes and talk about nuking Mecca and other such things like how anyone who disagrees with them is a traitor to Hindus etc etc etc
Thirdly I think his satire is very pleasing and cutting in the tradition of Swift and Rabelais. And all that thing about balls and missiles nicely mocks the macho priapic virility of Hindu nationalism effectively. It simply shows how crude those attitudes are in the first place. Plus it deflates pomposity.
Fourthly, by exaggerating these attitudes he/she shows how ridiculous such essentializing is.
Fifth, he/she is funny and naughty.
Hail SpoorLam!
I have tried resisting asking you guys (Abhi, Anna, Siddhartha, et. al) to do this, since I do believe in free speech, but I've finally had enough and HAVE to request...can you guys PLEASE ban SpoorLam as well? His comments are disgusting, insulting, and in my opinion much worse than the comments of many others who have been banned here. Again, just a request, obviously you'll do what you feel is right, and I do hate the concept of banning anyone, but I HATE the guy...and I'm nowhere NEAR on any level even close to being a Hindutva type. I feel you guys are banning a lot of people and deleting a lot of comments these days, yet somehow his insulting garbage is left alone. He is not funny anymore and he's very offensive.
admin, i agree that the part about reaping what you sow was uncalled for at a time like this. (i've just read some rubbish about indians worshipping false gods, hence all the trouble). maybe i just overreacted because i don't see every deleted comment as necessarily a flame. but reading what you've just said, you're probably right. i myself have gotten carried away at times.
by the way, i waste far too much time here :) don't smoke, don't drink, eat healthy, so i guess we're all allowed to have one addiction (ok, in addition to most things sweet).
I'll tell you what I will delete: any more requests to ban or the celebrations of Spoor Lam such requests invariably inspire. If we haven't banned him yet, we obviously don't feel that he violates our policies, which you are welcome to disagree with. Please scroll past him if it honestly bothers you that much. If we banned everyone who our commenters thought was offensive, this blog would be silent.
This is a thread about TERRORISM. The MURDER of innocents. The THEFT of everyone's sense of safety. Please stay on-topic from now on, thank you.
it's more like, "everyone we knoe knoes everything about the US." What about the remaining 90% of not-us'?
Then, how do you and "everyone you knoe" score on the following quiz. Go on, take your time.
1. Who won? the hutus or the tutsis?
2. Krystalnacht was a response against an act of jewish terrorism? True or False.
3. The Lord's army is a travelling choir group in Africa or in South America?
not to be snippy - but i found your comment somevaht patronizing.
I just got around to adding a comment here, after spending most of yesterday making sure all my friends back home were ok. Reading through these comments it looks like everyone has heard back from people they know. Janeofalltrades - I saw your comment saying that you hadn't, I hope all is well.
As with others, what keeps me comming back here is the civil discourse and the administrators' efforts to keep it that way.
I'm really saddened that yet another terrorist act has wrought havoc upon innocent people. My thoughts go to those who lost their lives or were hurt in this horrible event.
If we use sharfraz's logic, Pakistan has hell coming towards it. By the way India hasn't supported the LTTE since they blew up Rajiv Gandhi. If you really think that what goes around comes around, your Pakistan is in for quite a lot of pain in the very near future.
Since I am responsible for intern indoctrination and paddling, I'm sure I'll be granted this opportunity for clarification (and then I'll get out of the way of all the deleting of off-topic comments and hate-shit):
We have an excellent example of why banning certain people would be problematic, right here. Two fans of the personality in question comment about how they're glad he's allowed here, a few minutes later, another reader responds by raising a strong objection to said character...in other words, what we all need to realize is, for every person on this thread whom we can't stand, someone else digs them fiercely. We can't please everyone, but we have been able to please the majority of our readers, which is all/the best we can do.
Back to your regularly scheduled commenting. ;)
Bombay will come through. I was in graduate school when Indira Gandhi was assasinated. The city was silent, waiting. Our mess hall was not functioning, no restaurants were open, but the college across the road managed to stretch the remaining food in their pantry and invited us over.
A week or so later we all went to Sion Koliwada and enjoyed a magnifient dhaba meal.
Bombay!
I just spoke with two friends in Bombay, and am happy to report not only that they are well but that they say that the people of Bombay have not let themselves be instigated by troublemakers (no bandhs, strikes, violence) and that for the most part the city is back to its usual bustling self.
Our love and thoughts are with the victims and their families who continue to deal with the horror of what happened.
Hail Mumbai and Mumbaikars!
(said the Dilli-walli)
Rkay,
Majority opinion is not all that matters; if it were, this blog would get as twisted and hijacked as the news tab does. Our first experiment with letting our readers control and contribute content has been VERY eye-opening. What's clear is that it's too easy for one side to manipulate what happens, that's why WE are here, or this would be chaos.
This is neither a democracy nor a place where being rude is going to be tolerated. By rude, I clearly stated that any further comments on this matter would be deleted immediately as off-topic. I've deleted you thrice, you don't seem to get the message.
You have been heard. There is no need to repeat yourself. Please do not bring this matter up on this thread again.
I can't stand when people take something absolutely literally and then proceed to go overboard in their indignation. The point being discussed was that it's a shame that there is not much coverage of this tragedy in the U.S. Someone said that Indian lives don't matter so much which inspired to me to respond that it's not just Indians but generally the rest of the world doesn't matter so much over here.
If you insist on acting so awfully clever please do tell us why there is so little coverage of this in the U.S. instead of flying off in every possible tangent and being so awfully patronzing yourself. The rest of the stuff is not relevant to this thread so let's drop it.
rkay123:
If you're waiting for me, then here: I have nothing to say to you.
You are taking my comment and running with it; there is no voting, THIS IS A BLOG. Stop trying to find a way to get YOUR way. And please STOP with your threadjacking or I will support forcing you to do so, which would be unnecessary if you'd cooperate and be courteous enough to respect that this thread doesn't exist for your tangents.
What part of the following did several of you NOT understand:
I'll tell you what I will delete: any more requests to ban or the celebrations of Spoor Lam...
This is a thread about TERRORISM. The MURDER of innocents. The THEFT of everyone's sense of safety. Please stay on-topic from now on, thank you.
If you're that exercised about a certain commenter, voice your opinions directly to the moderators of this blog offline. I cannot BELIEVE the hypocrisy of complaining that Spoor Lam distracts from the thread at hand when some of you are practically SPAMMING a thread on terrorism with your redundant requests. You want to know what's distracting? THAT IS.
"Whether it is Russia's KGB, Pakistan's ISI, America's CIA, Britain's MI5 or Israel's Mossad, it is an open secret that these agencies receive billions of dollars annually to carry out covert operations in foreign lands. Time and again we have seen in the news (which is later quickly dispelled) about their involvement in funding local warlords, mafia gangs and regional extremists. [b]To be honest even India's RAW is no angel and has been active in its neighborhood - definitely in Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan and Bangladesh.[/b]"
http://desicritics.org/2006/07/12/040634.php
i must say cnn is doing a fairly decent job of following up on the blasts. they've had two different reports so far and now a third is coming up on "why mumbai." they're not as extensive as i would wish them to be but given the developments in the mideast and other news, at least they're making an effort.
I actually stayed up late last night, because I had read that several of you thought Anderson Cooper's show did well wrt covering this...it repeated at 1am and those of you who had left your favorable opinions were right. It was excellent, intelligent, worth losing some sleep over. ;)
I wonder if he's got brown assistants/producers. :D
while I don't agree with this letter completely, I thought it was well written and shows a side of India that should be admired.
I sincerely hope people are not stoic this time around. I hope action will be taken and people will not forget after a couple of months.
Funny...I just received that letter about 20 minutes ago from a cousin. I had thought that she had written it, but I guess not. As for the sentiment, it's nice and shows a people trying to show both solidarity and endurance. Does it gloss over real problems in Mumbai? Yes, but I'm willing to live with that. We had similar sayings here in NYC after 9/11, sayings that created a false sense of solidarity, an illusion we willingly embraced for the strength it gave us.
The questions i cited were deliberate - highlighting previous and ongoing instances of human depravity - but disconnected to indic involvement to allow a somewhat detached analysis on the forum. been floating in my head since morning - tag along if you want to. the burundi genocides have reportedly killed or displaced over half a million people. herschel grynspon, a jew, killed some german officer and that was cause enough for the goebbels to launch krystalnacht, the beginning of the holocaust. (was that terrorism? indeed such an act against israel today would likely be an act of terror - witness israel's justification of attacking lebanon). the lord's army in uganda has violated human decency by bringing children into the war - imagine girls as young as 7 being used as pass-alongs by soldiers, and mutilations so abhorrent they make the stomach churn. is this any more or any less disturbing than the mumbai bombings. why isnt there more coverage of these in the newspapers. are we all blind? do we not want to see misery except when it strikes close to home? can we not commiserate except when it is in our selfish interest to do so? what is the measure of man?
Maybe mumbai has it right. inured to pain and these random incidents of violence. will go on. And hence I posted that excerpt from Whitman earlier.
to get back To your posting - i disagree with kobayashi, manish and your (just to pick a few) postings that there is something insidious about the lack of indian focus in popular media. heck, it isnt like you particularly know about what's going on in africa - so it is odd to see the hand-wringing. newspapers cater to their demographic. canadian newspapers covered this, because there's sizable indic population out here(including I) - sells newspapers - had the target demographic lacked critical mass, big deal, stick it TO the Bakc pages.
I hate to get into a personal discussion here.. and i have to sign off now.. if you feel i'm leaving you hanging, i will owe you a discussion - post a link to your email add and we can continue elsewher.
Not sure if this is going to be deleted, but i will write anyway and briefly. Why don't you guys start a separate thread for people who want to debate your policy in deletion. I feel for the moderators - I mean how much can you keep deleting. And i think it is fair that people debate your policy but obviously not on this thread.
Dear admin, why are there so many articles in this website about the bomb blasts in Mumbai but NONE about bomb blasts in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh? Are the lives of people living in these countries considered less than those of Indians?
"I sincerely hope people are not stoic this time around. I hope action will be taken and people will not forget after a couple of months."
I think part of it has to do with India's love-hate-once ruled by- relationship with the muslim community. Imagine if the United States was ruled by Al-Qaeda for 3 centuries or however long it was before the WTC attacks.
Basil,
Could you tell us where and when serial bomb blasts have taken place in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Bangladesh in the past two days that have killed over 200 people?
I think part of it has to do with India's love-hate-once ruled by- relationship with the muslim community. Imagine if the United States was ruled by Al-Qaeda for 3 centuries or however long it was before the WTC attacks.
No - while the liklihood is high that it was an Islamic group like Lashkar or Jaish, it has nothing to do with modern day India's feelings towards the Mughal era. India is the softest target in the world for terrorism, because terrorist groups (Islamic, ULFA, Naxals) know that the government will hold its punches. And if the point is ever reached that the gov't has the terrorists on the ropes, these groups suddenly urge peace talks, until they can regain their strength.
Very comprehensive write-up. Probably the most explicit I have come across. Hope people who get into the root of this problem are as throrough as you have been and Bombay boomerangs to normal and moves like before.
Jatin, when exactly have bomb explosions in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh that have killed many been covered here? I'm not talking in the last 2 days, but in the last year.
Troll elsewhere.
Actually, New York has been an amazing city to live in since 9/11. No, not everyone is peaches and cream, but in general, there's a sense of respect and boundaries that's palpably increased. In my opinion. It's a damn fine town, and our shared tragedy paradoxically made it even better.
Maybe life will surprise us all and gift Bombay with a similar fate.
i think hairy_d has a point. in india, the genocide in darfur got barely any attention in the media, especially by its most vocal commentators/activists who normally are very voluble on israel-palestine, u.s in iraq and other non-india issues. as far as I remember, darfur just didn't register in the indian paper's editorial or news pages, despite the huge scale of the killings and displacements. guess they felt people in india just wouldn't care enough. have just read comments on the bbc where a white Briton complains that bbc 24 had virtually no coverage of the mumbai blasts, another white briton in mumbai complains that he agrees with mumbaikers who are complaining that the bbc is too pro-islam (and i'm sure muslims say the opposite), whereas bbc world probably had extensive coverage of the blasts.
You quite literally don't know what you're talking about.
I don't have time to entertain such an insulting, worthless question, but off the top of my head, here's a post about bombs in Bangladesh and another on Sri Lanka. We cover news as it happens, not via some bizarre tokenist system where faux-equality is valued over logic.
Do yourself a favor and go through our archives before you commence with the accusations.
"Actually, New York has been an amazing city to live in since 9/11. No, not everyone is peaches and cream, but in general, there's a sense of respect and boundaries that's palpably increased. In my opinion. It's a damn fine town, and our shared tragedy paradoxically made it even better.'
that's nice to hear because when i last visited it pre-2001 i found it to be the most insufferably rude, obnoxious place (with a few exceptions). what's worse, the people seemed to be actually proud of their famous rudeness, as if it were a badge of honor or something. maybe i'll actually venture back there now.
that's nice to hear because when i last visited it pre-2001 i found it to be the most insufferably rude, obnoxious place (with a few exceptions). what's worse, the people seemed to be actually proud of their famous rudeness, as if it were a badge of honor or something. maybe i'll actually venture back there now.
i find there is a big diff. between public sector employees and private citizens. the latter are often mighty polite IMHO.
Not true. BBC 24 had continuous, detailed coverage of the blasts just like the other major satellite/cable news channels here ie. Sky News and CNN (the latter would alternate between the normal version and its India-based sister channel CNN-IBN).
A brief comment on comments - the administrators of this site have done a good job of keeping the discourse focused and civil. If someone wants to start a flame war, they can always start their own blog (a point razib has made elsewhere).
But, on the matter of the News tab, I do have to admit I was a bit surprised that 2 out of 3 articles I posted were deleted today. While National Review is not everyone's cup of tea, it did feature three articles by three authors on the attack in Bombay. While some have complained about the coverage of the attack in teh American press, here was an American magazine that provided three well written articles. The article did not seeek to scapegoat India's Muslims, and goes on to discuss the difficulty in America's dealing with Pakistan. But, this blog has been good to me, even when I've been in the minority.
KXB, They don't look deleted to me. Are you sure?
"No - while the liklihood is high that it was an Islamic group like Lashkar or Jaish, it has nothing to do with modern day India's feelings towards the Mughal era. India is the softest target in the world for terrorism, because terrorist groups (Islamic, ULFA, Naxals) know that the government will hold its punches. And if the point is ever reached that the gov't has the terrorists on the ropes, these groups suddenly urge peace talks, until they can regain their strength."
I dont think it's ill-feelings either, but rather just a residual connection of being ruled for so long, and having their institutions so entrenched in our own. Almost subtle and subconscious in nature, hell, half the city names are named after muslim rulers, to this day, many Indian languages use Arabic words in their lexicon verbatim... This severly complicates the relationship, making it difficult to police, etc.. I'm not defending it, just trying to explain it.
With all due respect to the "let's reach out to the muslim american population, because they're american doggone it!" talk in this country after 9/11, It's a safe bet to say that most people and probably most of the US government treats investigating mosques, freezing muslim charity funds, tracking muslim communities, etc.. as studying, infiltrating, and finally rooting out a foreign element.. and not policing within their own population.
India doesn't have that luxury. perhaps, unfortunately.
Hairy_d -
Dont know where you're coming from and don't want to. But just to set things straight, I never took the position that Indian news "ought" to be covered or that there was something insidious about it not being covered. In fact my position, if you can all it that, was the opposite. At the same time, I also understand that some people would feel a twinge by this lack of coverage. But who can say what captures one's imagination, why the Titanic is popular in Afghanistan or why Darfur doesn't matter. I don't go about looking for logic in this world. I've long since finished mulling over the measure of man and have figured out for myself (I think) my own ethic or lack thereof. But good luck with your quest on this and try not to be sanctimonious about it.
"Not true. BBC 24 had continuous, detailed coverage of the blasts just like the other major satellite/cable news channels here ie. Sky News and CNN (the latter would alternate between the normal version and its India-based sister channel CNN-IBN)."
thanks for clarifying. i was just repeating what i'd read on bbc. guess she watched when there was a lull in the coverage.
"...and private citizens. the latter are often mighty polite IMHO."
unfortunately that was not my experience, but perhaps it was just one of those times when everything bad happens to you. in fact, my mother was subject to such rudeness that, in retrospect, i wish i had given some of those people a good old zidane-style headbutt :)
BrooklynBrown
I might be taking this too literally, but I find the thought below somewhat disturbing. Is it ok if they attack someone else the next time?
Also,
I hope we (at least Indians) remember and make sure that this never happens again. I agree that stoicism is a great virtue sometimes but I think this is the time for some kind of serious action.
KXB, They don't look deleted to me. Are you sure?
"Ties that Bind" by Alykhan Velshi is still there, but "The Mumbai Blasts" by James Robbins and "Been Here Before" by Aaron Mannes were deleted. Unless it's a peculiarity using Firefox's web browser.
While some have complained about the coverage of the attack in teh American press, here was an American magazine that provided three well written articles. The article did not seeek to scapegoat India's Muslims, and goes on to discuss the difficulty in America's dealing with Pakistan.
Well the article that's left was worth the read, though much of it has been said before. Much better than poignant snapshots about the flowers of Bombay, and how each community is like a petal, yet we're all one flower...the silence on the liberal blogs is eye-opening, and just goes to show that if you're an American concerned about India, you're better off a Tory. The "rainbow coalition" of American liberalism seems to have a hierarchy of its own.
Aaron Mannes' National Review article is particularly good, and the fourth paragraph serves as a response to comment #362. Worth reading.
Basil
What bomb blasts have taken place in Pakistan, Srilanka or Bangladesh that have killed over 200 people in one go over the past year?
KXB,
I am using Firefox and I am able to see three news postings by you in a row that are all still up. Do you only see one?
now... are mumbaikars stoic or do they have faith, because stoicism requires logic, faith does not. I believe in the power of faith - not in logic. so i disagree, perhaps only on the semantics, on such descriptors of Mumbaikar character - they are people of faith, not of logic. logic can not survive in india. aww.. did you have to throw a jab in there. i was testy earlier, because i hadnt eaten all day.
I think he's just REALLY COOL... remember some of his bursts of outrage during the Katrina coverage, Tsunami coverage, and other events? I think he's just sensitive enough to get upset, and just ballsy enough to say so on-air. Having read his memoir, it seems he has a genuine thirst to understand all people in the world around him.
As for SpoorLam, my do paise is this: Like Stephen Colbert, our SpoorLam has resurrected the subtle brilliance of satire. Half the joke is people who don't know it's satire and think Colbert loves GWB...
KXB,
I am using Firefox and I am able to see three news postings by you in a row that are all still up. Do you only see one?
I'm afraid so - even when I hit the refresh button. Weird that you guys can see them, but I can't
As for SpoorLam, my do paise is this: Like Stephen Colbert, our SpoorLam has resurrected the subtle brilliance of satire. Half the joke is people who don't know it's satire and think Colbert loves GWB...
Personally, I think he is more like Ajai Raj
KXB,
We discovered the problem and are working to fix it. It may take a while though.
if ikram praises NR it must be good. i'm checkin' it out.
heck, it isnt like you particularly know about what's going on in africa
How do you know this? There are regular commenters here who have real Africa connections: for example, Mischana, Kenynandesi - They are Africans of Indian origin. Or even chick_pea?
Three of SMers know Africa quite well: Siddhartha, Ennis, and Abhi. Visit their blog or read about their background when they talk about it.
There are others like me who have been to Africa and read quite about it.
That quiz of yours: take it to Princeton, Yale, IITs, IIMs, Presidency College, Cambridge, and U. Toronto. You know who will come ahead: Presidency College (Calcutta). Read Amartya Sen for reasons. Pal, you one of a nerd.
KXB,
We discovered the problem and are working to fix it. It may take a while though.
It's all good.
Bombay, have you changed?
Vada pao at Dadar, Wednesday services at Mahim church, rink hockey at St.Theresa's Bandra,the Sholay poster at Maratha mandir,Khajurao 5000 bottles piling up on the formica tables at a Wadala pub,the well dressed lepers lining up for lunch in Matunga,waiting in line at siddhivinayak temple dadar,my lucknowi roommate who insisted i accompany him for past midnight lassi,the near empty train to Malad on sundays to eat Goan food with an aunt,Wills cigarettes,wondering what mysteries Night Queen offered on the Andheri Versova road, the 163 bus thru central bombay with a top view of Falklands road,interviews in Nariman point offices, SEEPZ, nights at KEM with a sick relative, bed bugs, visas, the Goa bus from Dhobi Talao, the eternal mystery of transfers between International and domestic airports,those fish joints aka lunch homes,night long cards with my "shippie" buddies,the antics of Protima Bedi, Midday crosswords,those times I transit thru and want to stay a bit, looking over the cabbie's shoulder to ensure he is reading the rate card correctly, buying used books at Matunga Circle,pao bhaji outside VT while waiting for cerificates to be xeroxed next door,Xavier's babes ,all in the shadow of the Old Lady of Bori Bunder, chicken at Baghdadi's, the denizens of the night behind Sterling, muggy dawn, heating bath water with the old stick and wire, like Maggie noodles or the sambhar bucket , the list goes on
Ikram says:
That article was indeed pretty good, as were the other two National Review articles. Not at all what I expected after the garbage I see on The Corner. Recommended, even for those who, like me, do not usually read the National Review.
Kush - may I respectfully disagree a bit with your last point? #377
Most people in most countries are not particularly knowledgable about anything outside of their own personal sphere (and I include myself in this description). If I read an Indian writing about the US (random article in random paper), sometimes I wince a bit. If I read an American writing about India (random article in random paper) sometimes I wince a bit. I don't particularly find the educated elites of either country to be so superior to the other: they have different expertise. As should be expected. It's hard to really know another culture/country well, even for us diasporans. I mean, one commenter in this thread posted a link to a conspiracy theory about CIA and the bombings! It's not the first time I've read that sort of thing on an Indian website.
Razib - it is a good article, and Ikram is right, the fourth paragraph is an important point.
Oh, and to clarify, I didn't meant to single out the Indian commenter with the CIA/Mossad/MI5 conspiracy link. The internets attracts this type, unfortunately, and you see plenty of American commenters making the same sort of comments.
*The other day I was looking at websites for properties in Gurgoan/Haryana (my family is from Haryana) and I said to my mother, "those high-rises look like terrorist targets to me," and she got totally freaked out. It gave me such a wierd feeling to think I said that comment, half-jokingly, just a few days before.
So its now the day after and India is pondering on what next. I am glad that the usual reticent MSM in India has come out strong demanding action from the govt. especially in regards to our neighbour. It was a pleasant surprise that both the Hindustan Times ("It will be a long haul") and The Hindu ("The challenges of maximum terror ") wrote editorials focused on the likely external origins of this evil attack.
From Hindustan Times: "...The scale of the attack, and the countless tragedies it has brought, demands something more from New Delhi than the mere mouthing of platitudes. There is need to tell our friends in the war against terror that enough is enough, and that something needs to be done urgently about the jehad factory next door."
From The Hindu: "Dealing with the second challenge will be even harder for its solutions lie far beyond India's borders. Prime Minister Singh has repeatedly made clear his unhappiness with Pakistan's failure to act against terrorist groups based on its soil. Islamabad has responded with flat denials of credible charges that terror training camps exist on its soil, and that it harbours criminals like Dawood Ibrahim Kaksar, the architect of the 1993 bombings. Such denials have begun to wear thin and not just for Indian audiences."
(BTW, Mr. Yechury of CPI(M) fame still does not get it. His OP-ED in HT is more about India's opposition party than about the gravity of yesterday's event. As usual he wants to distract.)
I hope people demand accountability and not just wait around for the next incident.
Kush - may I respectfully disagree a bit with your last point? #377
MD,
I have a reason I said that.
Society like India is a very bookish, argumentative lot. That is why I referred to Amartya Sen and his Argumentative India book. There is a term in Bengali for that - maybe, some Bengali will pitch in. Once my brother-in-law joked that a 19 year old in Amreeka is most interested in getting laid (should be), and 19 year old in India will spouting about Marquez, Karl Marz, and trying to win high school quiz.
Walk into a coffee house near an IIT - there is an heated discussion going about everything. Why don't you spend an afternoon in a coffee house near Hauz Kas, New Delhi. You are medical doctor, you have financial means, why don't do the experiment I requested. I can help you if are serious about it. We will see how the chips fall. Can I please ask: Have you ever hung around 19 year South Asian kids in South Asia? Maybe, you have. I do not know.
Last month in Delhi, I was arquing finer points of arms sales, world politics with 19 year olds. I have spent close to 20 years in American academics in one capacity or another and have chatted with freshmens etc. - their are priorities are different, that is way it is.
In 2004, I used to discuss world politics with my bus driver in Hyderabad.
Now, discussing the quality of Indian MSM, you are digressing. I can agree with you on that.
B. Raman, again, a very credible commentator on Indian terrorism, has an expanded article up at Outlook - he is sticking with the Al Qaeda thesis :
While the Pakistani organisations with their objective of "liberating" the Indian Muslims from the control of the Hindus have enjoyed some support from the Indian Muslim youth, the Al Qaeda, with its pan-Islamic objective of forming an Islamic Caliphate, had not enjoyed any noticeable support in the Indian Muslim community in the past. However, taking advantage of the anger in sections of the Indian Muslims over the developing relations with the US, Al Qaeda has been trying to rally the Muslims of India, including J&K, in its support.
Kush, I don't want to go to far with this on a thread that should be devoted to the topic at hand, but I was thinking about the experience my father has had as a math professor for over 30 years, in India and the US, and refeering the work and PhD theses of students from many countries. He says, and he's talking about math here, that there are differences to Indian and Asian (in his case, mostly Indian and Chinese) students and they underscore differences in educational background. Both have strong points. His favorite anecdote is this: if he gives a long, hard, slot it out theorem to solve to his Asian students, they don't tire, while sometimes the Americans do. If he gives a problem that requires creativity, something that he hasn't discussed too much in class, the American kids tend to do better. Anecdotal, and talking about trends, but if you can share anecdotes, I can too.
American kids mature later than their counterparts, intellectually. And maybe they think about getting laid more because some of them have ample opportunity to do so. Okay, enough. This doesn't seem like the right thing to discuss in this thread.
Society like India is a very bookish, argumentative lot.
"society" is the a good word. people who go to IITs and read their marx are a particular type of indian i would think. but perhaps indians are smarter than bangladeshis.
Please! Can we stop comparing him to Swift and Colbert. This man has one joke and uses vulgar language to deliver it. Puerile humor is not my thing.
SpoorLam, great blogger or greatest blogger?
Confidently asserted, as only one who's never actually read the Reverend Dr Jonathan Swift can do.
Recurring theme is actually a comedic device. Whether repeating a previous punchline at the end of a set, or establishing the same one-trick style, it's often a calling card. Some people like it-- like Jack Benny, who found that a running, repeated gag let his audience feel they were "in" on the joke.
I find SpoorLam's verbiage to be anatomically correct, while perhaps overly illustrative, but he/she doesn't seem to use profanity.
well hon, you know what they say about opinions...Confidently asserted, as only one who's never actually read the Reverend Dr Jonathan Swift can do.
He's no Swift my friend - unless you need him to be.
Following (and supporting Mr. K, a quote from Jonathan Swift's "Gulliver's Travels":
So, uh, yeah, Jonathan Swift often worked the "blue" (or should I say saffron?) material too.
Spoor Lam has the eloquence to write that or anything remotely like that? Ideology can apparently blind aesthetic judgment. :-)
No, he's no Swift.
The Reverend recommended to the English upper classes that the breeding and subsequent eating of infants was one way of solving the Irish overpopulation problem. Swift was flagrant, scatological, infuriating. No "great" writer favored shit (that is to say, excreta) as much as he did, with the possible exception of Francois Rabelais. I guarantee you'd have hated him if he were a contemporary.
Shri Lam is positively polite by comparison. But no satirist undertakes his task in the hope of congratulation.
Now can the proper comment thread resume?
I don't think that there will be communal violence as a result of this bombing. I trust the good people of Mumbai (though the politicians are another matter, of course).
I just read an article on Rediff, quoting the Indian Govt's response to a statement apparently made by the Pakistani Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri. According to Rediff, he claimed that "...claimed that incidents like the Mumbai bomb blasts were linked to non-resolution of disputes between India and Pakistan."
Did Mr. Kasuri actually say this? Has anyone else come across this statement by him? I'm pretty shocked that he would say anything along those lines, if only for reasons of realpolitik!
Regards,
Kumar
There is a term in Bengali for that
Adda.
A Londoner's perspective (from Mumbai):
http://james.cridland.net/blog/2006/07/nothings-happened.html
There really is nothing more to say. In London, there was a small flower garden, and hawkish missing posters. Russell Square was shut for weeks after the bombings with ominous big lorries. Here in Mumbai there are no roads closed, no policemen swarming over the financial capital of India, nothing untoward. Litter bins haven't been taken away; and the bombings haven't been used as an excuse to stop autograph hunters or anything as ridiculous as that.
If anything, it's made me feel rather ashamed that we Londoners made such a comparative fuss about the 7/7 bombings last year: and I thought we'd done pretty well.
Oh! I understand now. All you you have to do is use salty language and you shall become the next Swift! Thanks for the education Mr. K.
This is a shameful act of terror, but we must look at the root cause of it. The babri masjid demolition and Indian state excesses in Kashmir are serving as fodder for misguided muslim youth
In this dark hour, the people of India must show patience and restrain. We must have faith in the leadership of Smt. Sonia Gandhi to deal firm hand against terror by denouncing it on Doordarshan. I am totally shocked by immature comments by posters here blaming Pakistan for these attacks. We must first set our house in order before blaming foreign hands, which is very Hindoo nationalist fascism of you
I am a Hindutvadi, but I would say please don't ban Spoorlam, I actually do find him amusing, even though I am the target of the joke. Besides its not like any of the ostriches here are going to stop the coming war with their appeasing drivel. Enjoy the jokes.
"You kaffir Hindus watch and wait what he wave in store for you. Allah-oh-Akbar"
paging spoorlam. your services are needed. :)
http://www.6thcolumnagainstjihad.com/GMASON_P2.htm
"Dr. Morey advocates destruction of key Islamic religious elements in the three primary hold sites of Islam. These are the Kaaba in Mecca, Muhammads Mosque in Medina, and the Dome Mosque in Jerusalem.
For Muslims, war, torture, bombing, GITMO, financial cutoffs, and, in fact, all of what they would call material values are not of supreme importance to jihadists. Nuclear attacks on Muslim nations are also not of supreme importance to them. Threatening some or all of these would capture the attention of most peoples of the world, but not the Islamists....What, then, is of supreme importance to jihadists? On what do their entire lives and morality depend? The answer involves their religious real estate....According to Dr. Morey, who has been a consultant to the FBI and numerous, other, unnamed governmental agencies, he has been told that the governments of the United States and France sent a message of supreme importance to bin Laden quite some time ago. That message is why there have been no more U. S. 9-11s and no equivalents in France, such as carrying out Islamic threats to destroy the Louvre, Notre Dame, the Eiffel Tower, and other French treasures: Repeat 9-11 and/or attack the Louvre, etc., and up goes Mecca, etc...if this fate should befall Mecca or Medina, it would prove definitively that the God of the Jews and Christians is superior to Allah; in this event, these Muslims say, they would have to abandon Allah and Islam and convert to the God of the Christians and Jews."
wow, this place is an ignorant, yet provocative mess.
provocative in the sense that "i can't believe there are so many stupid individuals posting comments displaying their inherent crass and general uselessness amongst their peers during these difficult times."
as usual.
some of you need to get laid more often.
6thcolumnagainstjihad
Thanks for the link. I am a big fan of Dr. Morey and his brilliant analysis.
Bob Morey's vitriolic hate literature is an embarrasment to Christians everywhere. He has no training or background in comparative religions and has propounded some of the most absurd theses about the early history of Islam. He doesn't have much love for Hindus either. I don't know what the FBI is doing using him as a consultant. His writings on religion have not proven anything so far apart from the fact that he is an ignoramus!
Dr. Morey at his best: (on when Mecca is bombed) it would prove definitively that the God of the Jews and Christians is superior to Allah; in this event, these Muslims say, they would have to abandon Allah and Islam and convert to the God of the Christians and Jews
This thread has reached a suitably absurd point now that the bizarre theses of Dr. Morey and the leadership qualities of Smt. Sonia Gandhi have been tossed around, among other ravings. There will be plenty more talk about the aftermath of the Bombay tragedy, I'm afraid. Time to put this thread out of its misery. Night-night.
Hail Mogambo Jonathan Swift!
This is supposed to be about the Mumbai blasts and not about nutcases working for the FBI