July 14, 2006
"Black Men, Asian Women" Article by Rinku SenIssues
Since I don’t watch these television shows, it’s a bit dicey to comment on the spate of shows featuring romances between black men and asian women, so I’ll let Rinku Sen do it for me: 
The sugary romance between the excessively noble characters played by Parminder Nagra and Shafiq Atkins on ER follows the much hotter one between Ming Na Wen and Mekhi Phifer that ended two seasons ago. Greys Anatomy features Sandra Oh in an up-and-down relationship with Isaiah Washington.
What accounts for such interest? Its as though these couples have been pouring out of medical schools and producers decided to capture the trend.
The representations tread the line between cultural authenticity, sometimes considered stereotype, and colorblindness. The women exhibit some level of conflict with their cultures and are slightly neurotic: Ming Na dreaded telling her immigrant parents that she was having a baby out of wedlock; Nagra quit her job in a bout of rebellion against family expectation to work as a convenience store clerk. The men are dangerous but tender. Phifer grew up without a father and has a temper; Gallant went off to serve in Iraq. I did laugh at the effort to bridge cultures, though, when Nagras character got married wearing a white sari. White is the Hindu color of mourning.(link)
If it’s on TV, is it a reflection of a real sociological trend, or simply a convenient image of happy multiculturalism from television fantasy-land?
Sen’s article gets into some sociological explanations for the phenomenon, none of which are terribly convincing (I don’t think these romances have much to do with “American Empire” or colonialism). But she does argue that it goes beyond “submissive Asian woman”/”sexualized black man” stereotypes:
Hamamotos theory would suggest that such a preference was grounded in a sexual stereotype of submissive Asian women. I am familiar with our so-called seductress image. My Asian girlfriends and I spent our college years snottily rejecting the few white men who came around as rice lovers. While I did experience an American man mentioning the Kama Sutra within five minutes of meeting me recently in New York, my adolescent self-image was much closer to nerd than slut. To see all these Asian women who might also have been high-school nerds paired up with the most sexualized actors in American culture has been, I will admit it, a thrill. However, in real life, Asian women and Black men dont get to be both equally sexy and smart. “Its easier for a Black man to get his foot in the door when hes with me,” said Aarti, “especially if were working.”(link)
Class dynamics may be important in the appeal of Asians to some African Americans. And the “bad boy” image (stereotype) may make people of African descent more attractive to children of immigrants traditionally considered too studious and repressed (spelling bee/ math team champions) to be generally attractive.
Or maybe not: since there are no hard statistics, this could be just another Dubious Trend Story in line with infamous New York Times stories about baby gyms in Manhattan, or Ivy League women who decide to drop out of the rat race to become trophy wives. The next time you see an East or South Asian woman dating a black man … it may simply be that they are two people who happened to meet, and fall in love — irrespective of Parminder Nagra, and sociology be damned.
(Incidentally, for Bollywood fans, guess who played Nagra’s parents in a recent episode? Anupam and Kirron Kher, of course.)
amardeep on July 14, 2006 09:26 AM in Issues, TV · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Its so these asian women can piss off their parents even more...
"You don't want me to marry a white guy? Huh? Fine. I'll take it up a notch"
Remember the Jet Li-Aliyah movie Romeo Must Die? Jet Li was the hero, Aaliyah the heroine, and at the end they just smile at each other and don't even kiss. Why? If it was any other combination, White/Black hero with Asian/White/Black heroine, their relationship would have been sexual. But Asian man and Black woman just did not go. Weird.
Hate to nitpick, but...
Not always. Gujarati brides traditionally wear a panetar, a white and red sari, on their weddings and I wore an off-white mundu on my engagement, as my husband's family is from Kerala.
I did laugh at the effort to bridge cultures, though, when Nagras character got married wearing a white sari. White is the Hindu color of mourning.
Hindu brides from Andhra Pradesh wear white wedding saris.
Thanks Pooja -- I didn't know about the Gujarati sari, or Keralan off-white (?). (Would it have been ok to wear a pure white sari?)
And Pablo, yeah, Jet Li was pretty much asexual in Romeo Must Die -- just a martial arts/stunt machine. (But that might have something to do with how Chinese martial arts actors know how to act, not necessarily a studio decision.) Hitch might be a more interesting case study: Eva Mendes was hired to play Will Smith's love interest because a) black+black was considered not commercially viable, and b) black+white still raises eyebrows. Black+Latina was considered 'in-between' and therefore safe.
Black+Asian would also apparently have been safe: Aishwariya Rai was Will Smith's first choice for a love interest for that film, but she couldn't do it.
Parminder Nagra's character was a Sikh Punjabi -- a fact that her character was quite vocal about in the show, at least earlier on -- and in "real life" such women wear neither saris* nor white on their wedding day.
*As far as I know. The brides at Sikh weddings I've been to certainly didn't wear a sari.
Parminder Nagra's character was a Sikh Punjabi
True. But the author of the piece was spoke of the "Hindu color of mourning."
Yes, but she's also a rule-breaker, remember? I know a Goan Catholic who wore a red sari on her wedding day. And, let me tell you, that's not at all the done thing. She was outfitted like a Hindu bride, and there she stood at the altar of a Catholic church. Most Catholic Goans don't even wear saris in everyday life.
So let's give the producers some creative latitude here.
From my understanding/observation, the mundu is traditionally off-white with gold zari or cream and gold with gold zari. I am not sure if pure white would have been OK. Someone who is actually from that part of India could probably answer this question better, although this looks white, doesn't it?
(Don't mean to steer off-topic. It's a very interesting post.)
Here's more on the "Hitch" casting issue:
my dad's sister eloped with a goan christian when she was 16 (this was in Kenya in the early 60's). She wore a white sari to her wedding because (according to her) she was celebrating according to her new husbands traditions, and mourning the lost ties with her own (my grandfather disowned her and though they live next door to each other, did not speak, and did not allow anyone else to speak to her for 8 years).
so to get back to the topic...It is interesting. I knew a lot of desi girls in college who dated afican american guys, and most of afroam frineds always talked about how much they loved indian women. Not to start anything but perhaps it is because a lot indian women are "colored" but whith some white-ish/arayan features. And they have curves as well. I know these are gross generalization and touch on issues as to why black men would beattracted to someone with "white" features and that not all desi girls look the same etc, but just one guy's obeservations.
Mixed Media Watch has given some great coverage to ER & Grey's Anatomy wrt the mixed-race relationships on the show. I guess my opinion leans towards feeling that they're trying to mirror some of the sociological diversity in relationships, as opposed to marking a trend or painting some rainbow-happy picture on TV. The fact that the mixed-race couples are presented "normally" as opposed to some overly melodramatic cultural plot point is refreshing, as opposed to treating mixed-race relationships like something to be ogled at the human zoo.
I'd read an interview with the creator of Grey's Anatomy, Shonda Rimes, about a year ago-- she is a woman of color and was very articulate about how she wanted a multicultural cast, not another show with all-white doctors. She wanted each individual character's diversity to come into play with the overall ensemble vibe, and she particularly wanted women of color to be in strong lead roles (Sandra Oh, Chandra Wilson)
I'm glad to see multicultural/mixed-race coupling on TV, and not in some ridiculous "Jungle Fever" fetishism light.
sorry for the multiples-- I thought of something else :)
As for Jet-Li, there have been several commentaries (my favorite being Angry Asian Man) about the asexualization of Asian male leads in movies and TV. It seems that hollywood thinks Asian guys are great for fixing your computer, schticky comedy with Japanese executives getting piss-drunk, or karate-kicking bad guy ass, but when it comes down to romance, they completely neuter the male characters. By way of comparison, female Asian leads get stuck with the over-exotified geisha-seductress or "oh me so horny" stereotypes, rather than being portrayed as complex human beings.
::If its on TV, is it a reflection of a real sociological trend, or simply a convenient image of happy multiculturalism from television fantasy-land?::
Not sure if the following is reliable, but if so, it would point to the latter:
http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml
Interesting post btw.
Regarding the Black Men, (South) Asian women combination:
The following points are based purely on my own personal experience here in the UK. There may be transatlantic differences, or indeed differences depending on one's own social/professional circles.
It's certainly been known to happen. However, in a disproportionate number of cases.....
Yep. When I was at college -- early to late 90s -- black men had become particularly fetishised in mainstream British culture and even more so amongst many South Asian girls here. I don't know what the situation is amongst the college-going crowd these days -- I'm 33 -- but some desi women around my age do continue this attitude as a legacy from their younger days.
They also do it a) as a metaphorical middle-finger aimed at desi guys (for varying reasons, eg. they've had bad experiences with Indian/South Asian men), b) towards their parents (even indirectly, if their folks are unaware of the situation), c) as an ego-trip about how "unconventional" they are, as -- from their perspective -- it creates "outrage" from desi guys and more conservative desi women, along with generating kudos from similarly-minded desi women (or those who would like to get involved in such relationships but do not have the opportunity or ability to do so). As we all know, it's regarded as very taboo indeed within mainstream desi society everywhere (generally-speaking), so the illicit nature of the activities further adds to the "frisson" of it all.
If the woman concerned is not in the relationship for the "right" reasons, the black guy concerned is either unaware that he is being "used" either as a trophy boyfriend and/or as an illicit thrill, or for various reasons he simply doesn't care.
Desitude,
Sikhs also wear white during funerals.
Yes, but to make the obvious points:
1. It's always an asian woman rather than an asian man
2. Asian men don't get to be love interests with anybody - either asian or non-asian women
The reasons are straight forward. Black men, in America, embody masculinity. Asian women embody femininity. But an Asian man is castrated by the media. Consider Gurinder Chaddha - has she ever shown an Asian male romantic lead in any of her movies?
That said, in England things are different, and I can name a large number of British movies with Asian men in romantic positions. I just can't do so for the US and especially not for TV.
I think she'll be shocked to find out why the stereotyped couples "DO WORK" as I've seen with my own eyes in NYC. The exoticization of "asian women" was always (and still is) offensive to me. And yes the token white man that will walk upto you at a bar is usally hoping he'll get some brown sugar in the form of Kamasutra from you. However the one thing that I have noticed in these relationships is that the men treat the women significantly better then they would if they weren't percieved as "demure/good" and perhaps they are. I'm a Indian woman and it's hard for me to not fall into that "good girl the way my mom raised me" role either when I'm in a relationship and perhaps there are men out there that simply like that. Ofcourse these very women like me have other "bitch factors" to them as well so it's not all sugary.
The last 3 hindu weddings I went to, the bride wrote white!! It was white with gold and/or silver but yeah it was white. I wish the author had done more research at how common this trend is now. Indian weddings usually require several outfit changes. And one of them ends up being black or white. In my mother's days my mom said women with black clothes weren't allowed at weddings now it's trendy.
I think its a conspiracy by white women - who are pointing out to asian (Indian too) women that black men are hotter than white men. I see whiteman - asianwoman combinations way too many than blackman-asianwoman.
Oh, once at a club, a bunch of black guys asked me, "why dont Indian girls date black guys". Before I made up any, they offered their own BS that may be blackmen are portrayed as badguys in Bollywood. I was just thinking, "Black men in Bollywood, really?"
I feel compelled to say something since I am an Indian woman who is married to a Black man. I cannot say that the "bad boy" image had anything to do with the initial attraction. Having dated within other communities including whites and south asian, my initial attraction to him really did not have anything to do particularly with his race but more so with his personality. On the topic of race/ethnicity, the one thing that did initially impress me was his pride in his cultural heritage especially since I was so proud of mine as well. But I can't say that either of us took an initial interest in the other b/c of any sort of racial preference. Of course our relationship has undergone obstacles from both sides, and we still get that obligatory stare from aunties who you can tell are just praying that their teenage daughter does not see us! But this interracial relationship has been such a beautiful experience, obstacles and all, which has broadened the world view of both of our families.
"Black+Asian would also apparently have been safe: Aishwariya Rai was Will Smith's first choice for a love interest for that film, but she couldn't do it. "
Can't forget Mississipi Masala too.
"The reasons are straight forward. Black men, in America, embody masculinity. Asian women embody femininity. But an Asian man is castrated by the media. Consider Gurinder Chaddha - has she ever shown an Asian male romantic lead in any of her movies? "
Wait, are you talking about British Asian or American Asian? Because, in Britain, Asian = South Asian... In North America, Asian = East Asian..
If "medical" TV shows were concerned with keeping up-to-date with real sociological trends, there would have been a South Asian doctor in a leading role long ago.
ain't that the truth.
Thank you Rashmi, for bringing a really great personal story to the thread!
IRL Chadha's husband, Paul Mayeda Berges, is of mixed descent-- japanese and anglo. You could argue that with her movies, Chadha is subtley playing up her support for mixed-race couplings. Likewise, her husband is directing T47MBWITW opposite Dylan McDermott in "Mistress of Spices". After years of seeing TV and movies that don't reflect "you", perhaps they're taking it into their own hands to bring a swirly infusion to Hollywood. You all know how you reacted the first time you saw a desi character on TV or in a movie, a character that wasn't a token taxi-wallah or freakin convenience store owner; I'm talking a real multi-faceted character that didn't act like some "bud-bud-bud" caricature of how desis are *perceived*. Mixed race relationships have been a taboo for a long time, in mainstream entertainment... I think it's a relief to see them finally reflecting back, and without the stupid stereotypes or melodrama.
Jet Li- you're a badass and I think you're cute, despite how the media portrays you as a pint-sized asexual buttkicker. But if you read my #14, you'll see that I already had your back, killah.
hey - to whomever just sent me a message via my blog, my email address should be available through link from this comment. and please do get in touch!
PAGING DR. BONG BREAKER, PAGING DR. BONG BREAKER!
okay
i lied
;)
sorry for my posting ineptitude!!
rsudarsa [at] gmail dot com
Here was a comment I initially posted on Mixed Media Watch when this article first appeared:
"If there is such a trend in film & television for pairing a black man with an Asian woman, you do not have to look for historical trends, but instead look to political pressures. While interracial dating is more accepted than say 30 years ago, they do not happen in the same frequency. Of the subgroup that dates interethnically (my preferred term), the most common pairing is an Asian woman with a white man, and a black man with a white woman. Film and TV have never had any qualms with the first pairing, but there is still unease about the second, primarily from black women. By pairing a black guy with an Asian woman, writers and producers can avoid criticisms from the usual quarters. The absence of a white partner makes the charge of a minority accepting majority notions of beauty null.
In those instances of black-Asian dating, it does appear (mostly from first-person experience) that it is usually a black man with an Asian woman. But the number of black men with Asian women is far behind that of white men with Asian women. "
But I would say that the number of instances of negative portrayals of South Asian men trail that of East Asian men. Occasionaly you will have The English Patient, Jewel in the Crown, even Seinfeld (rememebr, candy heiress Sue Ellen Mischke was set to marry an Indian guy before she found out Elaine already has sex with him).
But if we were honest, we would admit that we only care when good-looking members of our respective groups date or marry outside the group. Most East Asian guys I know don't care about Sandra Oh's character dating a black character, cause she's fugly. Chris Rick joked, "When I see a good looking black woman with a white guy, it makes me mad. I wanna go up to her and say, 'Girl, what do I got to do to get with you?' But if I see an ugly black woman with a white guy, I go up to the white guy and say, "Hey buddy, thanks a lot! Thanks for taking her off our hands."
An article written a couple of years ago by Pius Kamau, which offered an analysis of Brown-on-Black racism rooted in colonialism, enraged many Indian-Americans. While Brother Kamau may have gone to extremes in blaming the sour relationship on the caste system and semi-justifying Amin's expulsion of Indians from Uganda, the brother does make some good points. There is a hierarchy in many South Asian parent's minds - and African-Americans are last on the list of acceptability. Any "sociological" analysis of Back-Brown dating should take this into account.
fair point, KXB. The Loving Vs. Virginia case was only decided in 1967
Well, I almost never post anything here, but this subject is sort of near and dear.
I think that to an extent, if an new type of interracial couple is on TV, it means the media realize there is a new nitch that needs to be catered to. But in this case, I just think it's a less offensive way to get more tokens in a cast. Also, a lot of black women hate to see black men cast alongside white female lovers, and another minority is a lot easier to stomach. I think this trend stems more from a desire to be PC and not offend black viewers... not a desire to reflect reality.
I think a lot of people who interracially date- date stereotypes. Minorities, whether they're brown, black, or yellow tend to have a preference for their own and then white. Its unfortunate to see minorities fall into the trap of thinking they only have those two choices because its then not an indication of an open mind/heart. So usually I'm very happy when I see minority-minority pairings. But I do think this pairing also suffers from stereotypical views...
Getting to the point though, I think if a person manages to get away from the stereotypes the above quote can really ring with some truth behind it. When both players in a relationship are minorities, especially in America, theres a greater chance for connection with regard to the minority experience. So I can see how/why the quote above could be said.
BTW, I am not Desi. My relationship is the opposite of this and there have been many situations where I thanked goodness he wasn't white and could just 'get it.'
There is a hierarchy in many South Asian parent's minds - and African-Americans are last on the list of acceptability.
Totally agreed. You can also find an interesting take on racism amongst Indians towards African Americans in "The Karma of Brown Folk," by Vijay Prashad. He argues that the model minority myth also played a part in pitting South Asian Americans against other minority populations ie. Blacks and Hispanics.
When both players in a relationship are minorities, especially in America, theres a greater chance for connection with regard to the minority experience.
Oneup, this is so true. My husband and I always have said that though we aren't from the same minority background, we still can identify with the experience of being a minority.
To jump in on the side-issue of Asian men being emmasculated in Hollywood movies, four men come to mind who don't fall into that category:
1) Daniel Dae Kim, the hunk on ABC's Lost.
2) Chow Yun-Fat
3) Ken Watanabe (Tom Cruise's co-star in The Last Samurai)
4) Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson (though he's half Samoan & half black)
The common thread with these guys (to my mind) is that they are fairly tall and have a notable physical presence.
The problem Hollywood has with Southeast Asian men must, to some extent, be due to the fact that, for the most part, they are not tall (by American standards), and the idea that a (relatively) short and slight man could be a hero is anathema to the movie executives.
This obsession with height has been touched on often in those surveys we've all read about that state how CEO and high-level execs in the US tend to be - on average - 6 feet tall.
My question, and I address this from a non-hypenated, non-US-ian, Asian-Indian point of view, but somehow, I've always thought that Indian *guys* would date Asian girls before Indian girls would date Asian guys. And I say this from a deep analysis of that rich tapestry that is my extended social network; I know of a fair number of Indian-guy-Asian-girl couples, but zero Asian-guy-Indian-girl couples. Chow Yun Fatt, clearly, isn't popular with desi ladies out here.
So, strike me curious, but how does it work out there for you guys out there in Amreeka? 'Coz I think you *can* make a fair case out of a certain undermining, if you will, of the Asian man; our Asian brothers simply seem to lose out in that shallow, sexual rat race that international dating is (just as South Indians do, arguably, and for very similar reasons; our masculine ideal isn't as Greco-Roman as it is for other ethnicities).
Tom Cruise
Matt Damon
Toby McQuire
just off the top of my head.
Desi please. Nobody sees The Rock as Asian, they only ever see him as black.
I don't watch lost, but how much play do either of these guys get in the movies?
Perhaps true! I had an ex-boyfriend who was very threatened by any instance where I'd get on my pro-brown soapbox. In fact, any time I'd make mention of the minority experience or how my perspective was maybe different than his, as a woman AND a minority, he called me a racist and said I hated white people.
I was like "dude, I'm HALF WHITE, what kind of internalized racism BS would it be if I developed a white-hating complex?" needless to say, I dumped him soon after. He didn't get it, and it seemed he didn't want to.
here's astinkbomb to throw on the pile. I have been in relationship with "Vhite-ghurl" for while now and we often get into arguments about racism and sexism. Which is more prevalent? Who is more privileged, me the indian male, or her the white girl? These are boiling complicated maters into borad stripes but hey, whats life without irresponsible depictions of complicated problems?
This article by Sen is really north indian becasue in the south hindus wear white saris at weddings.
A couple of years ago, when I was dating a black woman - I also noticed a generational divide in the responses we would get from black men. The black guys my age would sometimes get all competitive, somehow trying to signal to my GF she was making a mistake in dating me. By contrast, older black men (40 and above) had fewer issues - I was the "nice boy" they hoped their own daughters would bring home, who just happened to be Indian.
Abhi,
Good point, though I find Cruise and Maguire a little too delicate for my taste, and don't get their wide appeal.
In terms of Hollywood mainstream movies, those three are relatively recent developments, after a tradition and long line of taller men: John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, Rock Hudson, Burt Lancaster, Robert Redford, Paul Newman, Arnold Swarzenegger (hey, we're talking height, not talent), Brad Pitt, Vince Vaughn.
And I know that these executive choices and mainstream tastes have a lot more nuance and subtext and history to them, I was just refelcting on the fact that height is, or was, a part of the mix.
Paging Spoorlam!
I am not sure if the minority-minority pair is about something else altogether atleast as far as television and the movies are concerned. Lets say in any TV show there are 10 characters eight of them are white and then there are the two obligatory minorities of differing ethnicities, you know to make sure all constituencies are covered. And when the show turns toward the inevitable romantic pairing off. One minority is paired off with the other. To pair a minority off with a white character would (I suspect in the eyes of the shows producers) be seen as introducing an unintentional interracial dating angle. While pairing off one minority with another is "ok" because well they are all "people of color" (A term which for some reason makes me wince. It sounds dated. Like something excessively polite white liberals of the 60's and 70's might use.)
When I started this comment I was sure I could remember many examples of this minority-minority pairing for the sake of convenience. The only one that jumps to my mind is Lark Voorhies being paired off with Screech in Saved By The Bell. I wonder if an equivalently attractive white character would have been paired off with Screech. My whole example goes to pot because Screech happens to be white, (but in some sense he was a minority.) But I am still sticking to my theory. : )
Filmiholic #34, do these actors get to be in interracial sex/love scenes though?
Frankly, I'm quite looking forward to Kal Penn in one (The Namesake. Of course, not a typical Hollywood movie).
Amardeep,
Telugu hindu brides do wear white. But it is never all white. The borders are strikingly red. (The ones I have seen.) And I think (not sure) Kannadiga brides have a green border. All white without any color would be seen as a sign of mourning.
As a lebanese friend of mine recently put forth insightfully, 'For a lot of guys from minority and immigrant groups, sex with a white woman is a lot about conquest, revenge for colonization/oppression'. There's probably some truth in that in many cases, even though we might not recognize or admit it in ourselves.
I don't think that all white people are insensitive to different minority experiences... but I do think that MOST are ill-equipped to thoughtfully discuss such issues without some real effort. And I don't think there are a whole lot who are willing to step up and learn. And while minority experiences aren't the same, I think in these M/M relationships both pairs are more willing to learn, since they know what its like to have their perspective marginalized. In my case, my being a regular reader of SM stems exactly from that. I'll admit that I never really had an interest in Indian issues until I started dating my boyfriend, but now that I am here, I make a sincere effort to know about the types of issues that are relevant to his community. I don't feel he should have to be a walking encyclopedia of all things desi because I hate when people try to make me the spokesperson of all things black.
Of course, both parties involved have to be aware of themselves for that sort of relationship to surface.
A white person talking about who is more priviledged with a minority... in America... in 2006...? I see SO many things wrong with that conversation.
Kidding aside, I think from an economic standpoint she has you beat as far as priviledge goes. But as a black female who actually experiences both racism and sexism, I think she needs to sit down with that arguement. Not that you asked.
"here's astinkbomb to throw on the pile. I have been in relationship with "Vhite-ghurl" for while now and we often get into arguments about racism and sexism. Which is more prevalent? Who is more privileged, me the indian male, or her the white girl? These are boiling complicated maters into borad stripes but hey, whats life without irresponsible depictions of complicated problems?"
The "isms" that we talk about usually stem from one group being unable or unwilling to understand and relate to the experiences of another group. Now, the question, are those group experiences "natural" or "man-made" Black people had to sit in the back of the bus because a LAW was passed saying so. That experience is man-made. Theres no credible biological base for such different experience, it's purely sociological.
I'd say it's much much more ambiguous how the collective female experience is generated (lets leave out bullshit regimes like islamic theocracies - those need to be changed), but if we talk about secular democracies, the codified laws sometimes actually work in favor of women (In India, don't women get free seats in the FRONT of the bus?). But the disenfranchisements women may feel (having to balance career & child-rearing, for example? I'm only speculating here) are much more biological and physiological in nature.
Oneup, I definitely agree that not all white people (or brown, or black or any color) are insensitive to minority experience. He was just a bad apple, and I would be cutting off my own nose if I painted everybody with the same brush.
filmiholic, (PS, love your blog!) I wonder, do you find them a bit too delicate because of their height, or is it something in their personality (pretty boys?) that comes off as delicate?For example, if you have Tom Cruise, and then you have ANNA-- towering over him in a pair of schwanky heels... my money is on ANNA for kicking more ass :)
'For a lot of guys from minority and immigrant groups, sex with a white woman is a lot about conquest, revenge for colonization/oppression'. There's probably some truth in that in many cases, even though we might not recognize or admit it in ourselves.
There is some truth to that everywhere. Why in India, many Dalit leaders married Brahmin women. There is nothing so sweet as literally fucking your oppressor, and if it wasn't sublimated out of cosncious recognition, it probably wouldn't be as exciting. Colonial relationships, OTOH, were overwhelmingly white man-on-brown woman.
I totally agree. I realize there are many cultures around the world where sexism is still a serious issue... but in America, not so much. We aren't getting our breasts ironed to "protect" us from men's advances. Theres still a way to go until we reach "equality" but even then, I just don't buy into the idea of white women being significantly oppressed in the US.
True, but the picture is complicated by the ugly fact that, for many men, sex with women is about conquest. So, to the extent that we don't go the Andrea Dworkin route of saying all men are rapists, we should be fair-minded and not assume that each brown man/white woman pairing is an instance of "the empire strikes back."
As other commenters have noted, a lot of what happens in mixed-race pairs is simply attraction (and shared values) on an a personal level.
even though indian men and women share a commonality by being indian, by being men and women of color, we also are different from each other. i don't think we sometimes understand each other's experiences.
for instance, i don't think a lot of indian women take into account, when they say indian men are x or y, how similiar some of our experiences are to other men of color. i would not argue that our experience is similiar to more marginalized groups, but there are experiences that, color, our lives. especially with recent events, simple signs of our masculinity have to be considered more deeply, like having a beard for instance. expressing masculinity for a man of color is not simple. if you are too assertive, you may be considered sexy, but also more likely to attract negative attention. if you are not assertive you run the risk of being marginalized quickly. there is also the stereotypical reaction to "machismo" from men of color, while i would argue, the word itself has strong color conotations. in almost every case, macho is assigned to an ethnic label. its not all that hard to cross boundaries as an indian man and find yourself on the other side. Bohemia, the punjabi rapper, is an example for instance
on the other hand, i don't know that we have enough conversations as to what exactly the indian or woman of color experiences are like either. i think there is a lot of drama in the 20's that can sometimes prevent these neccessary interactions that allow us to understand each other.
Oneup, I presume you are a black woman, and as such I have the deepest respect for your views on the subject. Even more so as you're open-minded person. But I wonder if blacks in America aren't socialized to think of race as the more pressing problem (which, of course, it certainly was about 40 years ago).
Neither the race struggle nor the gender one is close to being over. But my opinion is that institutionalized misogyny is a somewhat more pressing problem than institutionalized racism in this country. Even in circles where racism of any kind would be considered gauche, woman-hatery is still a popular sport. The "foolish woman" and the "hysterical shrew" remain two of the favorite tropes of popular media. Then there's the whole sexual angle (I won't spell it out; I'll just say that there is a lot of money being made on the internet).
And "andronormativity" (if I may coin a term) is still deeply embedded in everyday language, to the extent that efforts to correct it end up sounding shrill.
So, I do think women, white ones included, are significantly oppressed in the US.
This is my perception, but I'm willing to be corrected. I'd be delighted if other commenters, women in particular, weighed in on this.
The white girl. Hands down. White women's "oppression" is one of the biggest lies marketed to people of color in America. White women have piggybacked on all victories of the civil rights movement and put themselves right next to white men in terms of running this country. Go to any non-profit organization, you'll find most of them staffed and run by white women. Don't let vhite-ghurl tell you otherwise. Are white women being bombed into the stone age right now? Are white women being profiled and hate-crimed-on and deported? Hell no. Don't take that shit.
" But I wonder if blacks in America aren't socialized to think of race as the more pressing problem "
Socialized by who? Anytime a black commentator suggests race having a contributory cause for something he's accused of "playing the race card" Meanwhile white people play their race card of deniability every day. This type of comment I think is borderline insulting, it's saying a population isn't smart enough to intuit its own problems.
Save your sexual example, men hatery exists in the world to nearly the same degree, I would say. And to this people usually quote "Yeah well 97% of CEO's are held by men and this that and the other thing" Yes but look at it this way. Those are OTHER MEN! Out of the male population in the world, I'd say the CEO's amount to about .00000001 %. And when these men make decisions on how to control the world and its minions they don't call me and say "Oh, Hi, This is a powerful male, I just wanted to consult with another male before I made this decision.."
Except for these tokens, the rest are fair game for being called "sex-crazed, irrational, anamalistic jerks, mommas boys, losers" the list goes on. "The War Against Boys" by Christina Sommers describes this perfectly.
And I'd even venture to say the sexual angle has a counterpart for us too, the financial angle. Shows like Joe Millionnaire, Who wants to marry a millionnaire, and even Average Joe (because now the drama is, will this girl hook up with the guy, even though he's NOT rich and famous and handsome, etc...) basically tells us we're worthless unless we roll in a bentley.
I hate it when people bring up race in relationships. Love is hard to find. Why should anyone cut out significant portions of the population and make it hard for themselves. I've been accused of what technophobicgeek mentioned in post #47. If the females where I live are mostly white, is it really that surprising too see me with a white girl?
DesiDancer, meri DD,
Thanks for the compliment. :-)
To answer the question, for me it's not the height (or lack thereof), it's the too pretty (though not pretty to me at all). I must say, even with less girly guys, I have the same recoiling reaction to too much meterosexualness.
It's one thing to have an interest in grooming and appearance and all the rest of it, but there's a certain line (you know it when you see it), be it the too much time in front of the mirror or other excessive attentions to appearance, that makes me go "Ewwwwww". God only knows what all this reveals about my own notions of masculinity and femininity (actually, excessively girly girls get on my nerves too)....
But let's take some filmi examples.... imho, Nana Patekar, Amitabh Bachchan, AB 2.0, Sunil Shetty, Aditya Pancholi (there's a blast from the B-list past), all quite hunky. Saif Ali Khan, John Abraham, Vivek Oberoi, Hrithik, attractive, yes, but too too pretty to provoke improper thoughts.
On the subject of color and race and interracial relations on film, Jerry Pinto talks about this quite a lot in his book on Bollywood legend Helen (whose birthday it is today), especially vis-a-vis the expected role of the Hindu heroine to be virginal and meek ("Eyes down, you'll spoil the bloody video!"), and how actresses from other religious backgrounds were called upon to play the dancer/vamp role.
one could argue that misgoyny in america is almost worse for caucasian women since they are closest to it.
apropos, Sherman Alexie had a pretty cool poem on this topic, the sometimes lonely struggle of women, who are white, for equality and respect. putting it one way, ride or die chicks come in all colors
A note about the original post:
Michael Gallant is played by Sharif Atkins (not Shafiq Atkins).
And that's not him in the photo. That's Mekhi Phifer. I don't watch ER (haven't done in years), but I don't think Parminder's character had a relationship with Mekhi's character.
you're right, all look same -- but truth be told, mekhi pfifer's character did hit on neela when she first appeared on the show. that made ming-na jealous, and she got all catty with neela over it.
Mr. Kobayashi, I love you.
It drives me up a wall to hear guys in real life (never mind onscreen portrayals) dismiss someone (co-worker, former girlfriend) with an all-knowing tone as they pronounce "She's crazy".
"Parminder Nagra's character was a Sikh Punjabi"
I am not from Punjab or Sikh so I am not sure.
Is Neela Rasgotra a Sikh name? It sounds like a Punjabi Hindu name. I remember MK Rasgotra(Former foreign secretary) as a Hindu.
As a lebanese friend of mine recently put forth insightfully, 'For a lot of guys from minority and immigrant groups, sex with a white woman is a lot about conquest, revenge for colonization/oppression'. There's probably some truth in that in many cases, even though we might not recognize or admit it in ourselves.
Your Lebanese friend speaks for himself.
I don't really understand the thrust of this post. Is the purpose to critique Sen's article, which seems to state that there is a new "trend" of Black men dating Asian women? I read the Sen article, it does seem to get a little bit confused. I don't think there's any "trend" of Black men dating Asian or desi women... if anything, I see the following two trends: 1) White men dating Asian and desi women; 2) Desi men dating white women; and 3) Asian men and Black women never dating anyone outside of their "racial" group. In terms of the wider culture, I certainly know a few Black/desi couples but it's far from a "trend". I think Black men and desi/Asian women are some of the most exoticized groups of people in American culture. Is it really that surprising that TV shows find it titillating (as well as racially safe, since whiteness is not threatened) to pair a Black man and desi woman?
I'm also confused as to whether the post is analyzing the TV shows Sen talks about or the culture at large... both posts seem to confound the two.
Now as far as trends - I think we all know the trend of white men with Asian/desi fever. Countless desi and Asian sisters have spoken to this. The thing I have noticed recently is the sudden rise in interest among white women for desi men. Call it a misapprehension, but since September 11, 2001, I've noticed that desi men have suddenly become a new hot item for white women. It mirrors the kind of exotification I've seen happening to Black men, perhaps with slightly different roots.
Hindu heroine to be virginal and meek ("Eyes down, you'll spoil the bloody video!"), and how actresses from other religious backgrounds were called upon to play the dancer/vamp role.
Yes, and No. Filmholic.
Real Life: Most of the Indian heroines were either Muslims, or Christians (some Anglo-Indians) or other minorities till very recently (80s onwards) in real life. Hindu heroine is a very recent happening. Often, heroes were Punjabi/ North Indiann male till 80s - the whole Kapoor family, Rajesh Khanna, Amtiabh B. or even Muslims like Dilip Kumar. Kamalhasan in a way broke the trend.
Do not get distracted by their filmi names: Meena Kumari, Madhubala, Nargis, Zeenat Aman, Praveen Babi were Muslims in real life.
Reel Life: I can agree that the herione character often is Hindu demure girl and the vamp is a Christian socialite (examples Raj Kapoor films). However, a Muslim female from day one in Bollywood is a righeous and virginal (even she is a dancing girl) women - for example Meena Kumari in Pakeezha or many other any mughal period dramas. In Bobby, Dimple Kapadia is a Goanese Christian and there is a party scene she runs away when Rishi Kapoor tries to jiggy too soon. Sure, her short skirt had to do with her being Goanese in the movie but then Zeenat Aman had very little clothes in a puja scene as a devout Hindu in one of the Raj Kapoor movies.
PS: I am doing a purely academic discussion rather pushing anyone's agenda. Fimholic, some more home work.
On the whole "who has it tougher -- white girl or brown guy?" question, I don't mean to fight the question, but it does seem fruitless to try to decide who has it tougher. The answer will vary depending upon the circumstances -- the part of the country one is in, one's profession, etc. There are parts of the country and professions where being a brown guy may not be much of a hindrance at all (say, in a start-up/tech company in the Bay area), and others where that is less true. Similarly, some professions are very women-friendly, while others are far less so. Plus there is the whole safety issue that women always have to think about, though that too varies depending on where one lives, how frequently one goes out at night, etc. Of course, even people in "comfortable" situations may face discrimination under certain circumstances -- the brown start-up finance guy may get a closer look from airport security, while the woman who heads up a non-profit may get talked down to by a car salesman. And so on.
In short, I think racism and sexism are both complex, and vary somewhat depending upon the situation. I'm not sure a "who has it worse" discussion serves any purpose. What would be useful, I would hope, in a brown guy-white girl relationship would be each person being able to empathize with the other in situations in which one felt marginalized.
Just to be contrarian, I'm going to vote for the Indian male. The single greatest unearned advantage--ie privilege-- an individual can have is to be lucky enough to have 2 loving, stable, and supportive parents, ie being a member of the "lucky sperm club" as Warren Buffett puts it. I don't think anything else is more determinate to an individuals happiness and success.
So, sociologically speaking, I think a generic indian male in the US (b/c of traditional family values in the desi community) is more likely to have this advantage than a white woman (b/c of the relative decline of the american family).
By this criterion, I might add, a poor black girl form a loving family would be more privileged than a rich white boy with parents who ignore him.
All Look Same, I knew there was something dicey about posting on TV shows I don't actually watch.
That is from a quote from Rinku Sen herself. So I'll pass the buck to her for the misspelling.
Crap, that's my doing. The only place I've seen Mekhi Phifer is 8 Mile -- and he looks a bit different without the dreads.
But it helps to know that he flirted with Neela when she first showed up.
let's get re-tar-ded in here
Nikon -- As far as I remember it was suggested Neela was a Sikh b/c when her family to came to visit the ER and attend her grad ceremony, the male members were wearing turbans. anyway, even if neither neela nor rasgotra are sikh names you know those hollywood execs don't know the difference. hell, naveen andrews is playing an iraqi on lost, what does that tell you about tv execs?
Yeti, the thrust of this post was to provoke exactly the kind of discussion that's been occurring. It wasn't meant to be a definitive statement or clearly marked argument -- just to raise some questions.
And DTK, I agree with your impulse to reject the "who has it worse" discussion.
Totally agreed. You can also find an interesting take on racism amongst Indians towards African Americans in "The Karma of Brown Folk," by Vijay Prashad. He argues that the model minority myth also played a part in pitting South Asian Americans against other minority populations ie. Blacks and Hispanics.
Rashmi I haven't read the book, but the argument sounds like the one put forth by the whiteness studies crowd, viz., there are some ethnic groups, eg. the Irish and Jews in a previous era, perhaps Cuban-Americans today, who co-opt themselves into white normativity (become white) in their own pursuit of a place in the "order." This can be satirized away quite easily, but I believe that if South Asians had to choose, many would choose being white and "normal" rather than identifying with a coalition of oppressed minorities. Nor do they have the nembers to create a "third culture" as Hispanic Americans are trying to do. Some young desis do pick up blackspeak and the ghetto vibe, but that is all simulation for style - they come from the same place that "wiggers" do and quickly drop it when its time to get a job.
Actually, I think I would be the last person on earth to tell people that the racism that occurs today is extremely pressing. I would much rather people acknowledge that the racism of the past plays an extremely significant role in creating many of the problems black people currently face.
As for the jokes about women... jokes suck, but at the end of the day, white women are still more economically advantaged than, say, black men. But that's off topic for this blog.
But I think the key here is in one's definition of priviledge. And for me, it is going through life and rarely, if ever, having to really wonder if something you were born with is the reason for your rise or fall. I don't think this regularly comes up with white women unless its related to a job promotion. Meanwhile, minorities are constantly reminded of their "otherness" by people's comments, the inconvenience of being able to eat their own foods, the inability to buy makeup that actually matches their friggin skin tone...
All that stuff is just there for them. And they don't even have to think twice about it.
sounds like a business opportunity.
And yes the token white man that will walk upto you at a bar is usally hoping he'll get some brown sugar in the form of Kamasutra from you.
Dude, what kind of bars do you people hang out in??
In real life I know a lot more asian-white combinations than asian-black combinations---probably b/c things like Prop 209 severely depleted my higher education and subsequent social ecology of blacks and Latinos, a lack that still grates on me. (I had more friends from the "traditional" American minorities at my preppy suburban semi-boarding school than at my public university. Several of my black schoolmates angrily turned down post-affirmative action offer letters from Berkeley because they were so pissed. And it's generally very hard to smooothly break out of the social groups set by my college days. Damn you Ward Connerly!!)
Personally I think it's precisely because asian-white (especially asian female and white male) is so common in real life that it's not common on the screen. Producers don't want to alienate white women who resent it (most frequent I've come across thinly veiled racism is commentary on such relationships), and who are frequently their core viewers anyway. Sometimes you'll see a white-male/black-woman or white-male/hispanic woman combo (Carter on ER, Cruise&ThandieNewton on MI2) , but white women are probably less likely to vocalize a complain about that, even in their own heads. We all know white women never, ever, ever date men of other races, perish the thought! Though every now and then they might have a steamy encounter with slightly tan Spaniard masquerading as a South American or Chicano. The asexualization of Asian men is equally ridiculous. It should end. The People demand Takeshi Kaneshiro and they demand him now! And as for us brown people, we just need to get more screentime period.
The solution is to write more stories that reflect the way people are really mixing it up and then promote them like crazy so the roles bubble up to be filled in by all the sidelined but talented actors.
I hear you. Maximum respect.
White man asian woman pairing is more acceptable in the western society. Similarly white woman brown man pairing is more acceptable in Indian films. Take for example Salaam Namaste, Rang de basanti, Lagaan, Ismail Merchant's Heat and dust, Subhash Ghai's Kisna, Malgudi days- Vendor of sweets etc.
It is a reflection of mindset of people. The asian man needs to be emasculated to be accepted in the west. Why would William Hung become such a phenomenon otherwise. Its like saying, hey be like this man and be accepted. Would he have become a celebrity if he was a slightly better singer and had whiter teeth, probably not. He is perfect the way he is as a stereotype.
how the hell do you people have so much time to do this shit? Why does everyone complain about the injustices they face being a minority, or who has it worse. Life is fucked up, it always has been.
point blank: live ya life.
your time is better spent doing something about, unless ofcourse this your outlet for therapy cause you're too cheap to pay for a psychatrist
Oops, wrong URL in Post 80. The correct one is:http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003407.html
Mahatma Gandhi said, To fight injustice, you need to make the injustice visible. I dont know about you but I certainly dont like to be referred to as Paki.
off white with silver or gold border, white saree with red color border as in Andhra wedding is ok unless it is pure white saree which is normally used for mourning
Parminder Nagra's character repeatedly referred to her Sikh background during her early appearances on the show, and also when she brought a bhangra tape into the ER where someone (slightly erroneously) referred to it as "Sikh rap". (It was Punjabi MC's famous song "Mundian To Bach Ke"/"Beware of the Boys").
Correct, although considering Parminder Nagra is a Sikh herself, one would expect her to point it out to them (ditto for her white sari during the wedding sequence).
Topcat -
I agree, i've been called everyname you can think of, being the ONLY darkskinned person growing up in a rich WASP town. Make that injustice visible within a medium where someone will LEARN something. Sepiamutiny is great, but who is the audience? a bunch of people unaware of these injustices? Go volunteer at a local school and teach them about pakistani traditions, maybe when they grow up they won't assume you're kids are terrorists.
Learn wing chun and muay thai for the next asshole who calls you a paki. Its hard to talk shit when your nose is broken. I don't promote violence, but i don't take shit from anyone except my family, especially no assholes.
Filmiholic (#59), thanks for the segue to bring it back around to mixed-desis: When women first started acting in desi movies, the female lead actresses were usually "Anglo-Indians" or half-desis (Ha-Des, as Fofatlal coins it) because having already been outcast or at least looked down on for their ethnicity, these women weren't as wrapped up or restricted by the social edicts of what "good indian girls" do and don't do. It was easier for the Anglo-Indian actresses to take roles of vampy, or sexually-expressive characters, whereas the few Indian actresses at the time would only take a sati-savitri chase and pure wife role, if any. Tejaswini Ganti touches on this a fair bit in her book "Bollywood"
Me thinks Sepia Mutiny is a great group of people to share my thoughts with and its a great place to put forth my concerns.
dont just talk.
go out ye, and procreate.
topcat -
you are right, but the people who need to see these injustices are not reading sepiamutiny
me thinks you need to get a job
#88- *Chaste*, not "chase" as I typed... though that might be an amusing movie, too...
me thinks that it is ironic that the person who has time to post in the comments every few minutes is saying that "other" people need to get a job. I'm just sayin.... ;-)
So, you mean all the people at Sepia Mutiny are wasting time?
White man asian woman pairing is more acceptable in the western society
Actually i think its more like white man...and any race of woman seems to be acceptable to society for some stupid reason. And I agree completely about the neutering of the Asian man in popular media. and as much as I would like to believe that Gurinder Chaddha is trying to show support for mixed race relationships in her movies, i seriously doubt it. so far in the two movies I have seen she has shown only indian female white male relationships. Not a very diverse group of mixed race relationships.
ditto.
My ex-roommate didn't even try to veil her insinuations [Asians = submissive women => Why white men date Asian women]. Most probably because her narrow mind couldn't take in the map of the world.
Interestingly, she made it a point to mention that she (white girl) didn't include us (her two Indian roommates) in the category (because Asian Not= South Asian), but made this remark after I introduced her to my white date. (No comments when I had introduced 'coloured' dates earlier.)
post #1 is totally right
No not at all. But it sells. A friend of mine is a film director and producer, she took a script to a prod company for review, the first thing they said upon realizing it centered on a south asian male-female relationship was "make the man white."
Top Cat,
your logic is undeniable..
HAVE A JOB-
The movie you're talking about doesn't happen to be called finding preet?
I agree, Mr Kobayashi, and it wasn't my intention to generalise. I think I'd have to be the first person to admit some of that implicit 'conquest mentality' in myself. Unfortunately, I realise now how much of that I imbibed growing up in India, where there is very strict heirarchy of the 'acceptable' in couples, and anything out of the norm is frowned upon by society in general.
Sometimes the fact that people like each other regardless of race (especially when I see it happening to me or in case of people I know) is still a bit bewildering. It can be quite disconcerting to see some of the more unconventional couples (Asian/Indian man - white woman, black-Indian etc). Somehow something deep inside the mind refuses to accept that such an attraction can happen "normally", with race/background having a minimal role. Even when it happens to me!
The rational fact is that while there is a lot of racism around, there are plenty of people in the US who are really, truly color and race-blind in this country (US). I find that more common in people from the North-East. I am however, currently not one of them, yet. But one has to keep trying.
I'd like to ask y'all honestly, especially desi guys (1,1.5,2-gens). Do/did you ever feel that you are 'lower' in the dating heirar