Many of the blogs are right wing blogs that are strongly anti-Islamic...

I am glad that we at SM are a highly secretive oligarchy (and not a U.N. recognized democratically elected entity) that can ban and delete this sort of sentiment at will without protestation from the larger blogosphere :)

So the Indian government is against right wingers in the US now? Looking at the asinine content on some of these blogs (A succint summation of mypetjawa's logic is - Let's dunk the Koran in a commode and insult all Muslims because so many of them rioted over cartoons? WTF!) So while I wouldn't consider that such a VERY bad thing, this whole business of blocking URLS goes to show how incompetent and ingorant beaureaucrats are in India. Ignoring for the moment the fact that censoring is undemocratic and wrong, did they not realise just blocking a few URLs is totally pointless and can by bypassed in about 1000 different ways. Must we lag behind China in the application of technology even to do evil? Where is the grand firewall of India I say...if you must opress us, at least give us a non-trivial challenge :p

Here's how this happened. Some time last year a big minster sahib decided to investigate this Intarnet thingy one day, got hot and bothered about some of the content that he found, then spent the next 3 days making a mis-spelt list of the sites he didn't like. As these things tend to do, this list slowly found its way from one desk to another to the people who could actually enforce this over the course of a few months by which time half the URls were dead. Like the time they blocked yahoogroups last year, this only helped popularise the blogs across international media and now they are celebrating their new found fame.

What bugs me is fact that the order to ban sites had clear typos in it, and included some non-sensical blogs. If you're going to be evil and crack down on free speech, at least do it right!

I am glad that we at SM are a highly secretive oligarchy (and not a U.N. recognized democratically elected entity)

You should be doubly glad -- if you were a "U.N. recognized democratically elected entity," I'd be watching out for invasions and airstrikes right about now.

It's over! It's over! It's over!

Atleast in Bangalore on BSNL...

Bangalore Bytes - can you currently see the formerly banned blogs? That was fast - I thought it would take until Friday at least ...

I just hope that these un-banned sites all now accuse the Indian government of being "pseudo-secular" (or pseudo-insert-word-here) and that all the right wing nut-jobs attack them instead of spending time on our threads.

Spoor Lam was right! Spoor Lam is Cassandra!

i think amerika can breathe a sigh of relief over our anxeity about possible indian ascedency....

Someone back in the motherland should print this out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_firewall_of_China and send it to Mr. Haridhasapavalan at the address on the document. Don't forget to inscribe (F - Needs better effort. Try harder next time) in red ink on top.

Did you notice that the letter simply said "It has been decided to block the following......and report compliance". There was no explanation given, just a fucking order. WTF, is India now an Orwellian territory. And in this day and age of internet, sattelite & cable TV why the hell do we need an Information & Broadcasting Ministry??? What do these guys do anyway???? Fucking dumbfucks.

Sorry for the rant & foul language but if this is the way the country continues to be governed forget about being a "superpower".

Moderator:

It is not true that they are not linked to terrorism. Please do a search at Dalitstan.org on Mughalstan.

MAJOR EXTREMIST Muslims. Site is down, so go to google, do a search on the domain and mughalstan, view the CACHED files....

VERY OFFENSIVE to non Muslims, and call for a Muslim nation.

commonfolkcommonsense.blogspot.com [This is in Chinese!! ]

Kinda irrelevant, but it looks like Japanese, actually...

From what I remember from reading dalitstan.org, it was mainly anti-caste Hindu stuff, including some [really poor] Brahmin jokes. I don't remember them advocating violence, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's also been a while since I looked at it.

I am going to be a bit of a contrarian here...

Most of the terrorist activities in present day India are the consequence of such right-wing pro-zionist hate mongering by right wing nutjobs resultng in the alienation and ghettoization of the muslim minority. I think the government's reasoning behind connecting the ban, to protect against terrorism, is absolutely correct, if anything the ban is too incomplete and easy to circumvent. It's easy for Americans to chide India on the ban, but they need to keep in mind these bans probably save lives by preventing riots and terrorism and by stopping recruitment by fanatics (both hindu and muslim).

Note: Obviously blocking all of blogger and typepad was a dumb mistake on part of the ISPs, I am talking about these specific fascist sites.

Varun-you are a supreme idiot

I dont think people who read blogs have time to go for killing and participate in riots . At least in india penetration of internet is very low. Most people use internet for things other than reading blogs . And if someone want to go for riot , he/she dont need to read blogs . there is enough material anywhere in india.

Doing deabte and writing anti-XXX material is one thing and going for looting and killing is another .

Most of the terrorist activities in present day India are the consequence of such right-wing pro-zionist hate mongering by right wing nutjobs

these bans probably save lives by preventing riots and terrorism and by stopping recruitment by fanatics (both hindu and muslim).

If your opponent is quick to anger, seek to irritate him. --Sun Tzu

/the "Zionist Crusader" ;-)

LGF-clone

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the LGF? Is it a political party?

So far, I have yet to hear any reports of terrorists inspired by "right wing nutjobs" on blogs. Have you? Be serious.

Should I wait for the people I know whose names, contact information, and, in some cases, pictures, are provided at "Hindu Unity's CRIMINALS HIT LIST !" to be harassed, attacked, or killed before I start thinking about whether it's appropriate to maintain a hitlist of political enemies on the web? This is a serious topic, yo.

15 · Varun on July 20, 2006 04:02 AM · Direct link
I am going to be a bit of a contrarian here...

Most of the terrorist activities in present day India are the consequence of such right-wing pro-zionist hate mongering by right wing nutjobs resultng in the alienation and ghettoization of the muslim minority. I think the government's reasoning behind connecting the ban, to protect against terrorism, is absolutely correct, if anything the ban is too incomplete and easy to circumvent. It's easy for Americans to chide India on the ban, but they need to keep in mind these bans probably save lives by preventing riots and terrorism and by stopping recruitment by fanatics (both hindu and muslim).

I disagree. This will just galvanize hardliners into creating a larger and less blockable presence on the net. BTW most of these sites (dalitsan, hinduunity) are based in the US or in the UK (hindu human rights).

Saurav, It's weird, they have Amitava Kumar, Vijay Prashad, and Biju Mathew on that list too. Wow! (Only a matter of time before my name is added, I hope.)

At some point you have to make a judgment about whether you think these guys are a couple of nutjobs in a basement somewhere, or actually connected to a political system that would act on its "recommendations." In my view the best answer to these nuts is the SpoorLam answer of parody, not censorship.

And Sriram, LGF = Little Green Footballs. A blog that is politely called a "conservative American nationalist stronghold." Less politely, a "bunch of wingnuts."

Saurav, It's weird, they have Amitava Kumar, Vijay Prashad, and Biju Mathew on that list too. Wow! (Only a matter of time before my name is added, I hope.)

BTW Amitava Kumar devoted the first chapter of his book "Husband of a Fanatic" to an interview with the guy who runs hinduunity.org. I believe he was placed on the "hitlist" after he married a Muslim woman and wrote an article about it in MSM. Its actually very funny in places.

Saurav, It's weird, they have Amitava Kumar, Vijay Prashad, and Biju Mathew on that list too. Wow! (Only a matter of time before my name is added, I hope.)

And the Pope, Sonia Gandhi, Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Dawood Ibrahim, Shahrukh Khan, and my favorite "Arun Ghandhi - Grandson of the "Mahatma" Ghandhi" [It's not only Americans who mis-spell Gandhi it seems]

That's just the "hitlist" then there is a whole section on anti-Hindu commies who don't make it on to the hitlist.

Honestly, the whole thing reads like some teenager's myspace/livejournal list of "People who suck"

Here is an excerpt on hinduunity's founder from Amitava Kumar's book.

Let's be serious people. Our people have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot constantly. I have to wonder what kind of democracy is so scared of a minority that it suppresses speech, has a different civil code, and does nothing to punish Pakistan for its complicity in attacking Indians.

The reason is that an Indian's life is cheap to the elites. Why rock the boat when you can make a killing on flats in Guargon. Does anyone here think China would be so passive if Shangai were attacked by the Taiwanese?

I can't wait to hear the self-proclaimed post-colonial post-post-modern intelligensia of SP when they come out of the woodwork. There are subtler issuers they will say. What issue can be more subtle than the lives of your people? Their ability to read word the government finds offensive.

Who are SP?

saurav, that link is an eye-opener. desitude, thanks for the link to amitava's piece.

damn!

The reason is that an Indian\'s life is cheap to the elites. Why rock the boat when you can make a killing on flats in Guargon. Does anyone here think China would be so passive if Shangai were attacked by the Taiwanese?

You\'re right comrade. Then, maybe we can celebrate by running tanks over student demonstrations in Tianenmen Square. Vive la revolucion, &c.

Why rock the boat when you can make a killing on flats in Guargon.

now back to our regularly scheduled commenting-shommenting

If your opponent is quick to anger, seek to irritate him. --Sun Tzu

Whoah... Sun Tzu was a master of comment aikido?

Rogue Mutineer Manish,

Whoah... Sun Tzu was a master of comment aikido?

Deliberately provoking your opponent into anger (if you think such a tactic is ethical) clouds their mental judgement and lessens their emotional self-control, which causes them to a) make mistakes and b) enables you to use this against them as a weakness, as your own thinking will be clearer and sharper.

Whoah... Sun Tzu was a master of comment aikido?

Yeah man, you shoulda seen him on alt.culture.us-asian-chinese back in the day. He put Steven Segal to shame ;)

That hitlist is hilarious.

The Soldier of Hindutva are watching you Vijay!

And that thing you do with your hands? Very baaaad.

The ban is not over yet btw. Still blocked on the Airtel backbone, which my ISP uses.

Yeah man, you shoulda seen him on alt.culture.us-asian-chinese back in the day. He put Steven Segal to shame ;)

... in his famous book, The Art of Spoor.

well all this banning the url saga smells of nothing else but politics ...
a guy gets his site banned coz he has links to political parties and organizations which are in opposition of the current government ..
american blogs are banned becoz they hurt the sentiment of muslims ... thats not a bad thing but let every1 speak .. m sure there mus be blogs by right wing muslims and right wing hindus too ... as i concurr, its nothing but printing this letter in the press, makin the muslims think that the govt stood up for them and in the process gaining their sympathy and converting them to a votebank (it already exists but why not add some new 1s) .. the events occuring lately (the reservations galore) are nothing but gaining the votes of the muslims and the backward castes .. after all, its them who decide who wins the elections .. not the upper castes and other minorities ...

It's a beautiful thing called minorityism. Obviously, nothing new in India. Vast majority of the sites blocked spoke against Islam.

I knew India could never pull a China. The Indian people are simply too accustomed to democracy, there's no way blocking blogs would actually happen.

This was a stupid strategy, but at least one of the sites on that list is truely vile - Dalitstan - the biggest piece of nationalistic Christian fundamentalist backed racism that I have ever encountered. Still, I would not have banned it, violating Indian rights, and brought attention to it.

Here is an excerpt on hinduunity's founder from Amitava Kumar's book.

Ah, the delightful Mr Barotia. We meet again.

(It really is a delightfully written piece). Siddhartha, my copy of Husband of a Fanatic recently came in, so if you'd like to have a look, you know where to find me.

I'm in the Middle East and the Hindu Unity wesite has been blocked by my ISP; could someone mail me that list please?
Thanks

I knew India could never pull a China. The Indian people are simply too accustomed to democracy, there's no way blocking blogs would actually happen.

In a sense you're right, but there were plenty of people who responded to this ban initially along the lines of "the government must have good reason! why are you guys getting so worked up about a few blogs? And anyway, why don't you switch to Rediffblogs?"

In fact, the reason they were forced to address this quickly is that amongst the few thousand Indian bloggers out there are a few dozen professional journalists, who have the ability to reach millions of people around the world through their work. The outrage in the blogosphere was a story that these journalists could cover. As a result, lots of people were also writing and calling into CERT; even the Indian consulate in New York was forced to issue a statement. The government was feeling the heat, and made sure the ISPs corrected the ban.

India could have "pulled a China," but only if people refused to get outraged when the government restricted their freedom. Our outrage keeps Indian democracy alive.

Quite often the Indian government takes action to appease the hindu politicians - BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena - (& sometimes people as well). This is one of those actions, a nakab for immediate action which can never be taken against a group of unidentified people - terrorists. The banning of such blogs is an action taken entirely to appease such opposition parties. The consequences of such an action is minimal if not inconsequential; however, the action taken is just a "look what we did after Mumbai bombings" when being attacked at the next election by the opposition parties.

The sad thing is that the people will buy into such blog-banning as "proper reactionary" measure taken after Mumbai bombings. This in the case of politics means the idea will "trickle up" to the politicians as Indian politicians tend listen more to the massive uneducated aggrarian population (which more often than not feature individuals of strong religious convictions and severe knee jerk reactions) than to the educated individuals of society...i could say more but its rather futile the discussion of indian political machinery.

Furthermore, it is not even this that plagues India. It is the idea of superirority and inferirority. As long as RSS thinks they are more firm-hearted than Jamait-e-Islami and vice versa problems will continue to rise. As long as bus loads of Gujurati pilgrims get off at Muslim dominated areas in Kashmir and chant Hindu slogans, as long as Muslim neighborhoods refuse to pay electricity bills, as long as everyone thinks they are somehow more superior to the person next door.

Surely Pakistan is the perfect ground for such terrorist but it has been that way for the past two decades, thanks to the cold war. Currently Pakistan has nothing under its control Balochistan is under revolt, NWFP has severe Taleban participation in Waziristan, Azad Kashmir is destroyed literally - nothing exists in Azad Kashmir now, and Sindh & Punjab are all that Pakistan has under control. In Bangladesh - the country thats on the Top 5 of the most CORRUPT contries in the world - the government is struggling to hold itself together let alone the thriving militant Islam rise in its people. Both of these countries can be pointed to for their faults; however, neither will admit their fault as the government in both cases is entirely disconnected from its population.

India should fix its problems and reduce the cause for such violence, in this case Narendra Modi. Why is he still functioning as a political leader? Why does he get to make a speech after the Mumbai bombings? Is he the right person to do so?

That's the same thing I'm hearing Munish as my site continues to be inaccesable through normal means.

Honestly, the whole thing reads like some teenager's myspace/livejournal list of "People who suck"

At some point you have to make a judgment about whether you think these guys are a couple of nutjobs in a basement somewhere, or actually connected to a political system that would act on its "recommendations." In my view the best answer to these nuts is the SpoorLam answer of parody, not censorship.

It has some people's photos and addresses and is called a "hit list"! I mean, a lot of the things that crazy Hindutva people (as opposed to the socially adjusted ones, whom I've actually conversed with) sound like some teenager's myspace/livejournal list. That doesn't mean it's not potentially dangerous.

In any case, I wasn't advocating banning the site--I don't know exactly what to make of it or how best to address the issue of borderline incitement to violence against specific people and free speech. I just wanted to let Beth know that this issue goes beyond the effects on idiot American bloggers.

And on a post-script, Amardeep, I agree--it's something of a mark of pride (as long as you're not David Duke) to make it to a list like that :)

I'm glad they came to their senses. I remember coming across really gruesome and hate-filled websites run by Kashmiri and Khalistan independence partisans back in the early days of the web...and I've seen a fair amount of Sangh rubbish too (not the jehadi stuff yet but I'm sure there's tons of it) - I wouldn't dream of trying to ban or block them because banning websites does squat to stop people thinking the way they do, and it's so much better to have that rhetoric out there for everyone to see and be repelled by. Can't believe that people still think censorship achieves anything in this day and age. And shame on the Congress for thinking it's still 1976.

India could have "pulled a China," but only if people refused to get outraged when the government restricted their freedom. Our outrage keeps Indian democracy alive.

It would be a strange kind of democracy indeed that had to depend on the outrage of people outside the country to stay alive :)

Banning right-wing blogs is almost not censorship. Almost.

It would be a strange kind of democracy indeed that had to depend on the outrage of people outside the country to stay alive :)

Saurav,

You are a typical Desi snob. What made you think that Indian govt was responding to the people outside the country. Indian bloggers and Indian Media are responsible for this.

I wish my blog was banned. I could use the publicity.

Ennis - I don't see what context SP was used in, but normally refers to the Samajwadi Party.

If y'all are not familiar with this India media affairs/policy/commentary/law website yet, you must read it.
http://www.thehoot.org

Vikram's post, #26:

I can't wait to hear the self-proclaimed post-colonial post-post-modern intelligensia of SP when they come out of the woodwork.

It's kind of amazing how easy it is to have a blog banned in India, huh? I mean, it's not like just anyone could type (or mistype) up a list of URLs on some official letterhead and then scrawl a signature on it.

I can't wait to get home. I'm going to ban all kinds of sites from entire countries!

Desitude,

>>I believe he was placed on the "hitlist" after he married a Muslim woman and wrote an article about it in MSM. Its actually very funny in places.

It is not because Amitav Kumar married a muslim woman, from what I read on Internet forums, a lot of Hindus didn't like his conversion to Islam to marry the Muslim woman, you may know, according to islam a muslim woman souldn't marry a non-muslim man.

>>Most of the terrorist activities in present day India are the consequence of such right-wing pro-zionist hate mongering by right wing nutjobs resultng in the alienation and ghettoization of the muslim minority. I think the government's reasoning behind connecting the ban, to protect against terrorism, is absolutely correct, if anything the ban is too incomplete and easy to circumvent. It's easy for Americans to chide India on the ban, but they need to keep in mind these bans probably save lives by preventing riots and terrorism and by stopping recruitment by fanatics (both hindu and muslim).

Wow, thats right, blame someone else for islamic terrorism in India. Muslim ghettoization is self imposed, they are just creating small darulislams. Because of their religous books, islamic history & imams/mullahs muslims have a strong us-them feeling in their psyche and also the insecurity they feel with their women living among infidels is a major factor that leads to their ghettoization.
I remember a few years back mulslims in West Bengal made the govt ban Taslima Nasreen's autobiography by saying the book hurt muslim sentiments and will disturb communal harmony, I didn't understand why communal harmony will get disturbed when the author Taslima is also a muslim, and what has Hindus got to do with their hurt sentiments. Basically it is a threat to WB govt that "they will" disturb communal harmony if the book is not banned.
You call muslims a minority in india, but considering that Hindus have strong caste and language identities I would say muslims are the single largest community in India. No other community has such unified voice and representation and no other community gets patronized so much by the govt and state like the muslim community. It is to credit of muslims that these days some Hindus, irrespective of caste and language, are seeing themselves as belonging to one community.

It is not because Amitav Kumar married a muslim woman, from what I read on Internet forums, a lot of Hindus didn't like his conversion to Islam to marry the Muslim woman, you may know, according to islam a muslim woman souldn't marry a non-muslim man.

Did Amitava Kumar convert to Islam?

It is not because Amitav Kumar married a muslim woman, from what I read on Internet forums, a lot of Hindus didn't like his conversion to Islam to marry the Muslim woman, you may know, according to islam a muslim woman souldn't marry a non-muslim man.

He had to technically convert in order to be married in a Muslim ceremony (Nikka). But he makes clear that he wasn't a religious Hindu to begin with, and he doesn't consider himself a 'Muslim' now. He talks about this event in detail in his book 'Husband of a Fanatic'. You should try reading that instead of chatrooms on Hindutva websites...

>>Did Amitava Kumar convert to Islam?

He did, his new name is Safdar ali. He had an islamic marriage cermony officated by qazi(muslim priest), qazi won't go against islamic rules, looks like Amitava recited kalma.

http://www.littleindia.com/archive/apr2001/converts.htm

He had to technically convert in order to be married in a Muslim ceremony (Nikka). But he makes clear that he wasn't a religious Hindu to begin with, and he doesn't consider himself a 'Muslim' now. He talks about this event in detail in his book 'Husband of a Fanatic'. You should try reading that instead of chatrooms on Hindutva websites...

This is funny, If he doesn't believe in religions what's the need to convert?. He could have said 'no' to being converted even nominally.. If someone asks questions about that, he/she becomes a Hindutvadi.. nice logic.. :-)

Sarita, did you miss my comment #55?

Anyway, it's not true his "new name is Safdar Ali." As I mentioned, that name was given to him in order to technically be married. But he is still very much Amitava Kumar.

By the way, how is this relevant to anything??? The absurdity of this discussion is a little bewildering -- how on earth would this qualify someone to be on a "hitlist" (presumably for assasination) when thousands of Hindus marry Muslims every year? Why does it matter to you who he married or whether he recited the Kalma?

I simply can't see how someone's personal life choices are relevant to anything mentioned in this post. The Hindu Unity website is at best a laughable disgrace. At worst, it's legally actionable (as it encourages readers to commit acts of violence). The people named on that site are perfectly in their rights to file legal notice against Mr. Barotia in a U.S. court for incitement.

Ponniyin, I'm surprised you can't see that AK's choice surrounding his marriage is not something any of us ought to be judging.

I simply can't see how someone's personal life choices are relevant to anything mentioned in this post. The Hindu Unity website is at best a laughable disgrace. At worst, it's legally actionable (as it encourages readers to commit acts of violence). The people named on that site are perfectly in their rights to file legal notice against Mr. Barotia in a U.S. court for incitement.

Ponniyin, I'm surprised you can't see that AK's choice surrounding his marriage is not something any of us ought to be judging.

Well, I think personal choices do count.. Now he claims that "he converted nominally".. Who knows after bashing Hindus all his life (and reaping the benefits that come with it) and finally at the age of 60 on a Hajj pilgrimage, he could say he was all along an acting Muslim.. If a person is strong in his convictions he should remain so... And not claim, Oh I did that because of my mom / dad / wife.. If he does not believe in religion he should have said no to conversion..

As an example, I know quite a few folks who don't believe in 'religion/gods'. They stuck to their decisions and never used 'priests'/'rituals' when they got married. I'd rather believe those folks..

I don't support any hit list on any site. If they advocate 'physical violence' they need to be dragged to court and jailed..

>>He had to technically convert in order to be married in a Muslim ceremony (Nikka).

He had a civil marriage first and then a muslim cermony. If he considers himself not religious, why have a Muslim ceremony(nikah)?.

>>He talks about this event in detail in his book 'Husband of a Fanatic'. You should try reading that instead of chatrooms on Hindutva websites...

I read reviews of the book, it appears he indulged in one-sided bashing of Hindus.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041114/spectrum/book5.htm

Few reasons why Hindus take a patronizing attitude towards muslims and blame themselves instead:
1) There is tolerance and even acceptence of muslim's behaviour by Hindus, "man, muslims are like that only". A kind of resignation..
2) Hindus are afraid to hold muslims accountable for their behaviour, muslim sentiments get hurt easily and they turn violent. So instead Hindus take a safer route of blaming themselves, a typical turnin-against-self defense mechanism.

I simply can't see how someone's personal life choices are relevant to anything mentioned in this post.

Well, he does write about his marriage extensively in the articles here. In the "bigot" article he even writes about kissing his wife while thinking about the profanity hurled at him by Mr. Barotia, the hindu unity crazo.

The Hindu Unity website is at best a laughable disgrace. At worst, it's legally actionable (as it encourages readers to commit acts of violence). The people named on that site are perfectly in their rights to file legal notice against Mr. Barotia in a U.S. court for incitement.

No question about it. Now I know where Spoor Lam gets his lines from. You are warned, etc,.!

Who knows after bashing Hindus all his life (and reaping the benefits that come with it) and finally at the age of 60 on a Hajj pilgrimage, he could say he was all along an acting Muslim...

Ponniyin Selvan, Amitava Kumar has never "bashed Hindus," and I very much doubt that he will seek last minute refuge in Islamic belief. Read the actual books before you judge the man. Don't take someone else's word for it, get thee to a library. It's so easy to sit in judgement over someone else's lifework, but at the very least engage with the work itself, instead of repeating what haters have to say about it. You also have to remember that this kind of talk actually can endanger the lives of people.

For those interested in "hate speech" and where we should draw the line (if we should draw a line), this article (by law prof Jeremy Waldron) in the LRB is interesting.

Ponniyin,

Here is what the HinduUnity site says:

KNOW YOUR ENEMIES! KNOW WHO WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOWNFALL OF BHARAT!...and prepare yourselves for the duty towards your religion and nation.

How would you interpret that? I would interpret it as a call to commit acts of violence: Hindu Jihadism. If you changed the terminology and the graphics around, this site would be indistinguishable from a site published by Al Qaeda.

Earlier in this thread (with Saurav) I was suggesting that the proper response to this should be parody, since no one in their right mind would take such a "hitlist" seriously.

But now that I'm arguing with several people who seem to think it's relevant to discuss Amitava Kumar's marriage rituals because they justify -- by some warped logic -- his inclusion on a list of "traitors" to the "Hindu Nation," I'm coming to see what Saurav was trying to say.

Rahul Yadav (www.rahulyadav.com) is a liar. His blog was not banned because he had linked to BJP/RSS/VHP. It was banned becasue he is a Hindu Fundamentalists who belives that somehow Islam is responsible for terrorism in India. Just search for this query on google "site:rahulyadav.com", and you will see all the articles where he dares to question the patriotism of Muslims, but now deleted.

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=islam+terrorism&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=rahulyadav.com&as_rights=&safe=images

gives you cached parts of the Rahul Yadav site. Interesting how the Hindutva agent provocateurs run into the woods and refuse to be counted. What else can be expected from the intellectual descendants of the capitulating Savarkar and his ilk?

Amardeep

Hindu Jihadism, good joke.
Here is my take on it, Since Hinduism predates all major religions we should call Jihad as Islamic Dharma Yudh..
I would say, Islam copied the concept of dharma yudh and called it Jihad. I know this sounds absurd, so is your Hindu Jihadism.

I posted earlier that dalitstan.org has some EXTREME ISLAMIC views on it. not in a forum, but on the website itself. Vivek didn't realize the severity.

Here is the link for Googles cached version:
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:gC1TdJhwjpMJ:www.dalitstan.org/mughalstan/azad/zindabad.html+dalitstan.org+Hezb-e-Mughalstan&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

Copied and pasted from the above link:

MUGHALSTAN is the Muslim response to Hindu Rashtra. Envisaging an united Islamic homeland stretching from Sind to Bengal via Kashmir, it is the very antithesis of Hindutva. No, we Muslims are not going to go to Pakistan as the Brahmins command. Instead we will break India once more and re-unite with our brethren in Pakistan and Bangladesh to form the greatest nation of the world - Mughalstan, "The Land of Mughal-Muslims" . Mughalstan is "Greater Pakistan", or "Pakistan No. 2". In other words, Mughalstan is "India's Bosnia" - a nation within a nation. Mughalstan will Inshallah consist of the following coterminous territories :

PAKISTAN comprising Punjab, Afghanistan, Kashmir and Sindh.
BANGISTAN or Greater Bangladesh, comprising modern Bangladesh, southern Assam and the surrounding Muslim-dominated regions.
KHALISTAN, the Sikh Nation of Sufi Muslims. The Sikhs or Nanakshahis are followers of the Muslim Sufi saint Nanak Shah; hence Khalistan is a natural part of Mughalstan.
ROHILSTAN, northern Uttar Pradesh or `Rohilkhand', with a 60 % Muslim population.
MALWASTAN or Malwa in Madhya Pradesh.
BIHARISTAN comprising the Muslim-dominated regions formerly known as `Magadha' in southern Bihar, and of course.
KASHMIR, the Crown of Mughalstan.
Each of these regions individually possesses Mughal-Muslim population exceeding 50 %, and hence these regions justifiably belong to Islamic Mughalstan instead of Brahmin-Occupied Hindu Rashtra. The following is a map of Mughalstan -

The population of the resulting Mughalstan homeland is obtained by adding the Muslim populations of Pakistan, Bangladesh and North India, and subtracting the populations for Brahmavarta, Rajputana, Bhojpur and Brahuiland, which are envisaged independant ethnic nations. Using the latest population figures, one obtains

70 % Mughal-Muslim
3 % Vaidik-Brahmins
5 % Vaishya-Vaishnavite
15 % Sudroid-Shaivite
5 % Rajput-Saura
2 % Portuguese-Christian and others.
Since 70 % of Mughalstan's population is Muslim, Mughalstan belongs to us by birthright. The term `Mughal-Muslim' is analogous to the conventional ethnographic terms `Anglo-Saxon Protestant', `Sinhala-Buddhist' or `Russian-Orthodox'. Since each of these peoples have independant nations, it follows that the Mughal-Muslims deserve a homeland as well. Moreover, the creation of Islamic Mughalstan shall pave the way for the creation of Dravida Nadu in South India and Hindutva based states in Central India around Maharashtra.

This Mughalstan is the homeland for the dominant Urdu-speaking Muslims of the North who are mainly descendants of immigrant Muslims and have been historically referred to as `Mughals'. The Muslims of Southern India, however, are mostly Naumuslims or converts and do not speak Urdu as a mother tongue. Thus, the following Naumuslim states may be established in addition to Mughalstan -

Nizamistan comprising the regions around Hyderabad for the `Dakhini Muslims',
Moplahstan situated on the Malabar coast for the Moplahs,
Nasaristan for Sri Lankan Moors.
Yes, the Mughal Muslims will rise.
Mirza Qutb
Islamic Mughalstan Zindabad !
Long Live the Mughal-Muslim Race !
Hezb-e-Mughalstan
http://www.dalitstan.org/mughalstan/

So-called liberal, secular Indians... this is for you. This is the kind of stuff our government was trying to block. This, and websites that may be used to incite Hindus to retaliate. This should have been banned A LONG TIME AGO. Banning all blogs, etc. may not have been the right thing to do, but I think they were in such a rush to stop internet communication of sites like this, I can see why it happened.

Sarita:

You bring up a very good response to those that say Muslims are a minority, when you write, "but considering that Hindus have strong caste and language identities I would say muslims are the single largest community in India. No other community has such unified voice and representation and no other community gets patronized so much by the govt and state like the muslim community. It is to credit of muslims that these days some Hindus, irrespective of caste and language, are seeing themselves as belonging to one community."

Indians are some of the most divisive people I know. Perhaps it is because Indians are some of the most varied people on the planet. Every major and moderate religion, 126 or so dialects, and 30-40?? languages! A Punjabi Hindu, such as myself, has very little in common with a Tamilian Hindu from Tamil Naidu. Even our religion varies. Being Punjabi, we also worship the Guru's, and pay respects to the Guru Grant Sahib. We have different Hindu customs and rites. Of course our language is about as different as English is to Chinese, as is our dress, food, customs, habits, appearance, preferences, just about everything. Truth be told, I have about 90% more things in common with a Sunni Muslim from Lahore than I do with someone from south India (customs, habits, sayings, language, food, dress, appearance)

Hey guys here in Pune I can't still access any of these sights

the Sikh Nation of Sufi Muslims. The Sikhs or Nanakshahis are followers of the Muslim Sufi saint Nanak Shah

There are many snarky ways I could respond to that, although I'm sure I'm not the only Sikh here grinning at this quote. Saffronists/Hindutva types insist we're Hindus. "Mughal-Muslims" insist we're Muslims. Everyone wants to be our friend. How nice to be so popular.

Being Punjabi, we also worship the Guru's,

Er, technically no-one is supposed to "worship" them. Revere/respect them, yes. But not literally worship them. Anyway, off-topic, and a subject that has triggered heated flame wars on SM a number of times previously, so no more from me on that.

Back to the blog-banning/unbanning debate. By the way, has everyone noticed that both MoorNam and his nemesis SpoorLam have mysteriously disappeared from SM ?

Amardeep,

I'm not defending hinduunity.org. This is what I said

I don't support any hit list on any site. If they advocate 'physical violence' they need to be dragged to court and jailed..

But I agree that there is a market demand for people who are born into some religions and then write against such religions/fanatics in those religions (thereby proving their broad, liberal, secular outlook).. And people like Amitava kumar / Irshad Manji satisfy such markets..

Atleast Irshad Manji has not converted out, but Amitava kumar looks like a fake liberal..

Hinduunity.org is not different from hinduunity.com .they have not banned it.I think dalitstan was banned few years ago as it had some articles on veerappan and was supporting LTTE.In any case the move to ban some blogs and
sites and under that pretext banning access to blogs etc only shows that the Indian state is yet to learn how to
handle technology.they dont know that banning a site is different from banning and seizing copies of a banned
book or stopping a play feom being staged or stopping a film being shown.

Saurav,

You are a typical Desi snob. What made you think that Indian govt was responding to the people outside the country. Indian bloggers and Indian Media are responsible for this.

Indianoguy, namecalling is not nice! I was responding to Amardeep's comment that "our outrage keeps Indian democracy alive." Amardeep is in the U.S.

I have no idea who the Indian govt responsed to.

Jai,

You are correct about worship. We're not supposed to worship any Guru, not even the GGS, only God. However, i was writing at 2 am. and couldn't think of the right word...

I didn't write the part of Suffism, and I'm definitely in the camp that believes that Sikhism is a part of the great Hindu religion. I also think Jainism is, and Buddhism, because all of these religions were offshoots and variances of Hinduism. Most modern Sikhs disagree, however, even the Guru's were all from Hindu families, except I think Gobind Singh.

Just an addition to the hinduunity.org discussion, it looks juvenile and all, but I know people who've got death threats from being on their hit-list, trust me it's not a joke..

DT2004,

This is off-topic so I'll keep it brief.

Most modern Sikhs disagree,

One quote out of many that could be supplied to politely contradict the assertion that this is a "modern" phenomenon; this one is by Guru Tegh Bahadur, who lived over 300 years ago:

"Hinduism may not be my faith, and I may believe not in the supremacy of Veda or the Brahmins, nor in idol worship or caste or pilgrimages and other rituals, but I would fight for the right of all Hindus to live with honour and practice their faith according to their own rites."

however, even the Guru's were all from Hindu families, except I think Gobind Singh.

Their ancestry is irrelevant. One is not a member of a religion, or deemed a believer in that faith, purely because one's parents may be. Also Guru Arjan Dev was the son of Guru Ram Das, Guru Hargobind was the son of Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Har Rai was Guru Hargobind's grandson, Guru Harkrishan was Guru Har Rai's son, Guru Tegh Bahadur was Guru Hargobind's son, and Guru Gobind Singh was Guru Tegh Bahadur's son. In each of these cases, none of their parents were Hindus. Ancestrally, yes, but not in terms of belief or religious affiliation. The only ones who were born into Hindu families in the strict sense of the term were Guru Nanak, Guru Angad Dev, and Guru Amar Das, and they all disassociated themselves from Hinduism in the orthodox sense.

Anyway, in the interests of not creating ill-feeling on this blog I think we should amicably agree to disagree about your viewpoint that Sikhism is a part of Hinduism, especially as that argument has broken out on SM several times previously and left a fairly nasty aftertaste for everyone involved, considering the animosity it usually generates.

And since it would be both off topic and ugly, it usually leads to the thread being shut down (sound of a throat being cleared). So take it elsewhere, boys. You don't have to go home, but you can't do it here.

One of the stated enemies on the hitlist is Shah Rukh Khan, stating he is anti-Hindu. He even married a Hindu and has portrayed moral Hindus against the Muslims in many movies. Not to say such movies helped Indo-Pak relations but it seems odd that he would be added to the list.

Have they banned any Islamist websites?

I have a response to Jai's post, but will keep mum

:)

out of respect to the thread. I'm surprised this has been a hot topic before. Well, not really, but I guess I'm surprised that it has been a hot topic on Sepia Mutiny.

Yes, two of those websites are Islamic from what I've been told - the Dalit one and the mis-spelled ImamAli.

I am shocked and aghast at the Hindu nationalist propaganda by some members here, the extreme racist,casteist putrid hatred for muslims by some members here. Terrorism is a result of the ghettoisation of the muslims by the right-wing pro-zionist neo-fascist Hindu nationalist parties. If we care to look beyond our own capricious anger we will find that a lot of righteous anger of the minorities goes unrecognised, which ultimately culminates in activities like bombing local trains in peak hours as an outwardly manifestation of deep inner insecurities

IreneFingIrene

I am extremely offended by your right wing innuendo. It is because of such shallow generalisations that youth get misguided and engage in terrorist activities.

is amitava kumar really convert islam and how many kids he has are they muslim